The Life Of Bryony - Miriam Margolyes: Pep Talks, Prejudice, and the Importance of Pleasure

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

This week, I’m joined by the one and only Miriam Margolyes - actor, national treasure, and unapologetic truth-teller. Beloved for her outrageous honesty and infectious humour, Miriam has spent decades stealing scenes on screen and stealing hearts off it. We get into what makes her speak without filters, why shame is a word she never entertains, and how she stays completely, authentically herself. There are conversations about sex, aging, Jewish identity, and exactly why she refuses to hold back even when others might wish she would. Miriam also shares stories that will make you laugh, wince, and maybe even blush - reminding us all that life is richer when lived with courage, mischief, and a healthy disregard for other people’s rules. This is a raw, outrageous, and utterly joyful conversation that will leave you feeling braver, lighter, and inspired to stop apologising for being exactly who you are. BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE 📚 Miriam’s latest book, The Little Book of Miriam, is available in all good bookshops from Thursday 11th September 2025.   WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU 🗣️ Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail] If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it – it really helps! Bryony xx   Credits:  Host: Bryony Gordon   Guest: Miriam Margolyes   Producer: Laura Elwood-Craig   Assistant Producer: Ceyda Uzun   Studio Manager: Sam Chisholm   Editor: Luke Shelley   Exec Producer: Mike Wooller    A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back, everyone to The Life of Briney. I hope you've had an amazing summer. Now, here at The Life of Briney, we talk honestly about the chaos of life and the bravery it takes to laugh and live through it. This is the first episode of season two and we're kicking it off with the queen of telling it like it is. none other than actress, a national treasure, Miriam Margulies, who's here to talk about her new book and how we can all be a bit more Miriam. Nobody says that lesbians can't suck cock. True.

No, I know. Who's making the rules here? It gave pleasure. It was easy. I didn't kill anybody. I didn't hurt anybody. I didn't get pregnant. I think it slightly affected my gag.

reflex. And so going to the dentist is a little bit difficult now. My chat with Miriam Margulies right after this. Miriam, I want to talk to you about what it was like getting naked for the cover of Vogue at the age of 83. Yeah, I'd like to talk about that. I can remember that. That's one of the things I can remember. It was unexpected because I hadn't been told that I was going to be asked to get naked. And I mean, I always wash very carefully

because, you know, when you're older, you do. But it was a bit of a shock. But I utterly trust Tim, who was my photographer, Tim Walker. He just said, would you do a new, would you do it? It was well into the day. So they'd come and they'd set up in your house? Yes, and I'd, you know, become a model. For Vogue.

Was that something that you ever expected in itself to happen? Oh, get out. Of course not. Vogue? Absolutely not. I mean, I kind of had a sort of silly attitude towards fashion that I thought it was beneath me. No, I mean, I just had no... It had no relevance to my life.

Fashion has always been quite unpleasant to women over a size eight, I've always thought. It's only recently that it has made efforts to accommodate us. I suppose so. I mean, I'm lucky because when I do a show, a film telly or something, I get the wardrobe mistress to make me something because they take your measurements very, carefully for television. And so they fit. Most of my clothes never fitted properly. They were always too big at the back or too long at the front. But I've now got a series of frocks that I like and I wear them a lot. Actually, I didn't wear one today. I wore this because it was comfy

and it's slightly layered. So if it was hot, I could take my jacket off. But I like this jacket. I think it's quite smart. It's lovely. The colours suit you. I thought they did do. There was something in, so we're talking about the little book of Miriam,

which is I just want this podcast. I want everyone tuning in, because I think they're going to want this, is they want to know how to be more Miriam. And this book gives us the opportunity. to, I want to get a tattoo on my arm that says, what would Miriam Margulies do? That's the tattoo I want on my arm. And because I think you are obviously known as a fantastic actress,

but I think in latter years you've also become a great sage. A sage. A sage? A sage and onion. Have you got an onion with you today? No, I didn't bring an onion today because I know. I know I'm going to get one when I get home. Okay.

I've got them at home, of course. Thank you. Well, look, I'm not a writer. I think of myself as an actress. And now I think of myself as a documentarian because I've morphed into doing what you do, asking questions of people. But it's thrilling to think that I've written a book, a book that people will buy. I believe they will buy because they've bought my other book. I just felt reading this book, I think I felt Miriam and we have a loss in common body-wise.

Thank you for saying so. I'd like a body like yours. I'd like to be tall. You know, I've shrunk. I'm only four foot ten. It's ridiculous. I'm as broad as it's long. It really is. It's awkward. And that's why I often come with cushions and stools and sticks and walkers. because I can't reach anything. I mean, I could always reach a cock, but I don't have to anymore. So you are a magnificent human. And the reason I asked about getting naked for the cover of Vogue, and then you went on to the wardrobe mistresses because reading the Little Book of Miriam,

I felt this great sort of relatability and what it feels like to be a bit other to not necessarily fit the jelly mould that society has pushed forward for women and I think there's a lot in there that just it comforted me and it made me feel a lot more it made me feel that it was okay to be me

and I got the sense. Oh, it is. No, and I know, but I get the sense that this is something that you've struggled with in your life. You just mentioned the wardrobe mistress, and wardrobe mistresses are an entry. So the Little Book of Miriam is an – it's an encyclopedia of – Yeah, it's an alphabetical account of my life and the things that have stood up in my life.

And I wanted to call it from arseholes to Zoom. But my publishers whom I revere felt that this was indelicate and might limit the sales. So it is actually from arseholes to Zoom, but we called it the little book of Miriam. In W, there are wardrobe mistresses, and you talk about how they would always say to you, oh, you just need a bit of an adjustment, Miriam. And I read it and I thought, oh, what that's, it's, it sums up what it feels like to be a person who's always told that they just need a little adjustment. Does that make sense? That's a very astute observation. Yes. I think that I didn't feel I needed an adjustment, but everybody else felt that I did.

And I wouldn't take that on board. And I think that nobody should. You are who you are. And you should have confidence in who you are. And if possible, like yourself. I really like myself. I think I'm so sweet and kind and good and funny and adorable really and I'm always astonished when people don't agree. That's the thing that gets me. They need the adjustment, not me. And I think you should think that. When I first saw you, because we had not met before this morning when I came to the Daily Mail.

And I mean, I'm only here in the Daily Mail because of you. because the Daily Mail and I are not on good terms a lot of the time, but I thought this podcast sounds interesting, and it's very popular and it'll sell my book. And of course, I'm honestly, I'm very interested in money. I like it, I want it, but I'm not going to be a tart. I don't want to spread my legs for everybody. I'm only spreading them.

Well, I'm not spreading them, but I'm parting them slightly. for you. That is, you know, Miriam, that is the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me on this. Not just on this, on this podcast, if not ever, in my life. I want this to be clipped into a social that I can put on my Instagram and repeated again and again and again until I'm a very old lady. Well, you have Instagram, you see. I don't have Instagram.

I think you should get on Instagram immediately. At the moment, I'm in. Facebook that's my only social media connection and it's it's getting tricky being on that because they keep making changes to it and I'm not in control and I do like to be in control of what goes out and so I'm I'm thinking I might even leave that really yeah and I don't want to because, you see, they have this funny thing called Facebook Friends. Now, friendship to me is very important, and I love and need the friends I have. And I'm fortunate in that I have a lot of friends because I make friends easily, because I need them.

I don't have brothers and sisters. I have a lover, my partner, and she is everything, everything. But she's not with me all the time. And so I do need other people. You know, I get things called friend requests from people I don't know. And how can I be friends with someone I don't know? I think you have to be honest and say, I'm sure I'd like you, but I don't know you. And there isn't time to get to know you because I'm 84.

And I can barely see the friends that I really do know. So I kind of don't answer friend requests. You say in the book that you have something like 11,893 contacts in your phone. I know it's... You're always making new friends, Miriam. I am because every job you do, you make friends, don't you? You meet people. So I'll probably ask you for your mobile phone number when I leave.

This day gets better and better. No, I can become 11,894. Well, you can refuse because I know that people don't always want their phone number known by somebody else. But I would take you for a really nice meal. Not today, but another day will do it. Can we talk about food? Oh, yeah. Because I didn't know there's anything else to talk about.

There's food, sex, politics, money. religion. They've already covered quite a lot of those. And Nigel Farage. And we don't, listen, we're not going to talk about Nigel Farage. No, let's not. Let's stand to talk about food. Because again, this sense of, I get this sense of you living life to your fullest.

I always think I always want to live as the full fat version of myself. Not the, what's the, not the semi-skimmed version, you know. And I think so many women feel that they have to live as the semi, of the skinny version of themselves. And what I sense with you is that living in full fat, not in moderation. Moderation is another entry in the little book of Miriam. And we can guess what Miriam thinks of moderation. I don't like it. Me neither. But food, enjoying food and enjoying sort of living life to the full is also, yeah, is another, is another kind of theme of the book, I would say. Yes, and I think that's possibly because as I've got older, I've become more, Miriam.

I've just let it happen. I think I was always like this, even when I was a little girl. I always like to talk. I always like to eat. I always ate too much. I like to laugh. And I think that as you get older, you have more confidence. I got more confident as I got older, but not about being a writer.

I'm still very humble and nervous about that, quite genuinely. I'm not humble and nervous about being me. I know who I am. And I think that's what I want everyone to feel after, hopefully after reading my book, buying it, of course, that they feel better about themselves. You know these things called cameos? Yes. It's a website that started in America

and well-known people can be paid for saying hello and cheering up non-celebrity people. And you set your own price. I think my price is £100. I want to clear £100. And I get lots of requests for pep talks, not just happy birthday and happy anniversary, but so-and-so is feeling down in the dumps. Their workmates are horrid to them.

And that's become very much more popular in my list of things to do on cameo. And it's interesting because people need affirmation. We all need it. We need to be told, you're wonderful, I love you, I trust you, you make a difference. And I think if you can give that to people, you're doing good work. And that's what I try to do and in my books. So if anyone, so I think a lot of the audience of The Life of Briney are women who perhaps don't feel confident in being fully themselves for whatever reason. But I was going to ask you, what would your, so not, obviously I can transfer you £100 for this pep talk for this, but for the listeners of the life of Briney, what would you say if someone's sitting in their car right now or on the tube in someone's arm

it, feeling low, feeling hopeless, feeling despair, feeling any of these things. What would your pep talk to them right now be? I would say, look, I know you're feeling rough at the moment because you've written and told me so. But I want to tell you, first of all, you are not alone. There are a great many people at the moment who feel rough. And it's under the same. understandable because the world is shitty. The wrong people are running things. And so we all feel uncertain and nervous and frightened. But the fact that you've written to me means that you know who you are and you know that you shouldn't be feeling miserable like this, that there is another possibility. I want you to grasp that possibility. I want you to go to the mirror. I want you to go to the

and look at yourself and think I'm not insanely beautiful, but I have a face, I have a life, I have a world that I inhabit, and I can change it. I personally can do that if I believe in myself just a little bit more. And that's what I'm asking you to do. just believe trust in yourself like yourself know who you are and just for once put yourself first oh i just i want to give you a round of applause that was sensational but it's it's true and i've often had to say that to people what you can say when when people are dying of cancer and know it or multiple sclerosis or some very painful illness,

then it's harder because you know what that can be. You know the horror of it. And you know the despair that people feel. And that's when I try to cheer people by saying, you are loved. You have made a difference in your life. You're going through the toughest part of it. But think of the difference you've made.

Think of how when, if you die, and you know we're all going to die, what a difference it will be. What a hole. There'll be a, you know, a floracized hole. And in that hole, all the love that you have made people feel for you, is placed. You are not forgotten. You will be remembered, adored. People will be grateful that you've lived. And that's what I want when I die. I want people to miss me. I don't know. Some won't. But some will. I think many people will. And fuck the people that won't.

Yeah. You're right. You have a very strong sense of self. I do actually. Where do you think that comes from? Oh, Mommy. Yeah. Mommy gave that to me. Daddy was less so because he was himself, I think, a rather frightened person. But Mommy was bold and Mommy was sure.

And she, who had never expected, I think, to have children because of the war. You know, they were married 11 years, my parents before I turned. but she loved me with a ferocity, with a fierceness, with a totality, which may not have been a good thing, because I've always expected everybody to react to me the way mummy did with adoration. And of course they don't, nor should they. But it was lovely being spoiled. I loved it.

Your mother sounds pretty awesome. She used to do the, what I've written down here is, tell me about your mum doing the housework in the nude. She did. She did the housework in the nude. I don't quite know why she did. I think it was because she thought she might as well be dirty and then get washed. So she wasn't going to wash before doing the housework. she was very fat she had been a dancer and she knew how to carry herself she had very good posture and she was always trying to make me have better posture she had a shrewdness she could read people She sussed things and she wouldn't be bullied. She gave me a sense of what I could do and that I could do anything I wanted to do

if I believed in myself. She was quite a performer. She would have been an actress. Only a nice Jewish girl could never be an actress in the lower middle class world. from which my mother came. But she knew that I was talented. And she pushed that talent.

She was determined. And I remember Grandma, who was called Flora, Grandma Walters, she said to me, you're a star, Miriam, and she gave me a star. And I remember when I was understudying, Barbara Windsor, my love, a gorgeous person. And she had a star on her dressing room, on her dressing room door. And I said, Barbara, did you put that star on your...

She said, yeah, of course I did. Of course I did. I'm a star. Why wouldn't I put it up? And I thought, golly, because I would never have actually shown anybody. Because I had, you know, I was born in Oxford where people have manners. and I mean no heart but manners and I

would never have done that but I was given a star when I was a little girl and I suppose without I'm not sure do I deserve the fame that I have

I don't know if I actually deserve it but I don't fucking care I've got it I've got it and that'll do but I'm so grateful that you do because we, I do genuinely think we need more, I need, I personally need to see more women like you living. I hate the word authentically because it sounds so inauthentic because people use it so often now on social media in, in, and it sort of, but I, I need to see women like you living without giving a fuck. I mean, you do give a fuck.

Well, I do give several fucks actually. but I think it's important always to be truthful. You know, when I first went on Graham Norton show, I didn't know quite what was expected of me and I didn't know any of the guests. Who were you on with the first time? Well, the first I remember that it was with Will I Am. Oh, he's such a love, a most delightful chap.

And I was trying to explain that I didn't know who he was. Because I'm not into the pop music. I didn't know. Even when I was in the 60s, I didn't go to concerts and I didn't like the Rolling Stones. I still don't, actually. I think they're vulgar. But it was, I was trying to explain to me.

And I said, well, I don't know many black people. And people, of course, were shocked that I would say such a thing and thought that it was racist to say that. It wasn't racist. If you don't notice when people are black, you must be fucking blind. People are black and Asian and one-legged and fat and all the rest of it. You see what you see. If you change your attitude to people because of what you see, that's racist.

So anyway, I mean, I was furious about that because I don't think I'm racist or all. I suppose I could be racist about being Jewish because I love being Jewish, you see. I think it's best. Being Jewish means that you inherit a range of art, music, jokes, food, history. It's a gift. It can also be a gift. It's the same sort of gift as being Nigerian or Albanian or whatever, you inherit something besides the culture in which you live. And to have the opportunity to have lots of cultures, to have lots of knowledge, to understand that there is a world beyond the English world. You know, when I was born in 41, it was the height of A, the war, and B, the empire.

We believed that the British Empire was the only good thing around. It was, we brought sophistication to barbarians. Well, who's being barbarian now? No, we need cross-fertilisation between cultures, between people. And I'm grateful that I've been. able to have that. But anyway, when I, when I latched onto Will I Am, I gave him a lecture because he kept saying like, which is an American thing. It's come from America. Well, don't do it. I know. I knew when I read the book, I thought, I must stop myself from saying

like all the time. Well, I haven't noticed your saying it particularly. And did you notice that I said, I haven't noticed you're saying it because the gerund takes the genitive. And I just love that. That's another entrance, G. Yes, in G. It's important. Grammar is important. It shouldn't cut you off, but it is the structure of language, which enables you to think. You can change it, you can adapt it. And that's why I absolutely respect when trans people want me to say them, when it's only one person. It was tricky for me, but it makes them happy. And that's what matters to you. And that's what matters.

That matters more than grandma. So Will I Am, I love how we can just go, we can, within one conversation we've gone from Will I Am to. to the joyous cultural experience of being Jewish, to pronouns. Well, but that's life, isn't it? Yes. And that's what it should be. It should be this glorious mixture that everything is poured into the pot. And I think that's what I've been good at.

That's why I've got a pot belly. It's full. It's a full belly, full of all the things that have happened in my life. life. And it's not over. I don't want my life to be over yet. You talk in the book a lot about weight and being fat and your and the belly. And I just, I love, I love the freedom with which you write about that. But they also get the sense because you talk about going, going to sort of, um, health farms, as they used to call them in the 80s. and obviously there's a sense and I may be wrong here that you regret that you that you weren't

that you were never able to lose weight I think it's naughty of me to be 84 and fat I honestly do I think that if I'd had any sense I would have lost weight I would have still been the same person but I probably would have been fitter you know I mean I'm I'm not I'm not particularly fit because I've got, well, you know, I piss myself a lot because I didn't do pelvic floor exercise. That's one of the things, by the way, I really want, I want to pass on to ladies, please, please, pelvic floor, darlings. It's very important. I'm doing some kegles now. Literally as I talk to you.

It's great. Nobody knows. No one knows. I hope that. Everyone's listening. Squeeze your clit and squeeze your asshole and go. I hope that everyone now is doing a little bit of kegling. Yes, they should.

You're a cougal and you've got a keegle. That's the truth. But I should have lost weight. I wish I had. I haven't. I've managed without. But it's better not to take a Zem pic and all those things. I'm really against.

that. I was going to ask you what you thought of all this sort of weight loss bollocks. It's rubbish. You shouldn't do it. I mean, people with diabetes, thank God I don't have diabetes. But if you have diabetes, you need a Zen pic. It's a

medicine for people who are ill. It's not for vanity. You should be able to control your appetite. Do you think that though? Because I fucking do, yes, I do. But don't you think there's shit? Because it's interesting, because you talk about overeating, and do you feel that's something that you, do you have a, do you get the sense that you've failed because you haven't managed to, not fail, failure is perhaps the wrong word, but that you are somehow at fault because you haven't managed to control your appetite? Oh, I do think that.

Do you? I absolutely do. Yes, of course. because I have knowingly hurt my body. I've knowingly, as I reach forward for the second helping of cheesecake or coffee and walnut, my darling George at home, he makes me coffee and water. I mean, recipes in the book. It is.

Available in all good bookshops. No, it's not, I know as I reach forward that I shouldn't be doing it. I'm fighting. I'm fighting my own desire to be well by greed. I'm greedy. I love the taste of things. The explosion of joy in the mouth. Maybe that's why I'm, you know, was a famous cock sucker. But it really does delight me food. I get pleasure from it. And I gave the, the, the, pleasure more prominence than health, and that was stupid. Do you feel any, I don't get the sense that you feel any shame about that? Shame is pointless. I did it. I acknowledge it.

I regret it. But I'm not ashamed. No point in being ashamed. I did it. I have to own what I did. But I just think that people should be more. careful. However, television advertisements for food should be stopped. They did it for cigarettes. And I have, you know, I was a mannequin cigar person and I, and I was a Cadbury's caramel bunny

voice. I made money out of making people ill. That's shocking. And that I am ashamed of. But I didn't know it then. I didn't think about it. it wasn't it wasn't thought about I just thought about the money now I think about other things too and I really believe that if you want the National Health Service to survive and I do with all my heart want that we have to stop advertising food well I think it is I mean it's the new you mentioned cigarettes and I think that in you know in the future we will perhaps look back a lot of the ultra-processed food with the same addictive qualities as smoking, certainly. I don't know about the carcinogenic effects of them.

But, you know, I definitely think that that's sort of coming to the fore, isn't it? I hope so. I mean, and we have to protect the. I mean, I just feel very like a missionary about things now. I want people to be better, better all the time. Be better than you are. because you will leave the world hopefully better. And we, our generation, my generation,

we're leaving it worse. It's in a worse state. And it's because of greed. So I'm now probably more left wing than I've ever been. Which runs against what we conventionally think happens, which is that the older we get, the more right wing we become. Well, I haven't. I haven't become right wing.

I've veered to the left, definitely. And it's funny because this tit is bigger than this tit. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, I have that too. Which one is your big one? My, my, my, I think my left is bigger than my right. I love the way that you talk about having large boobs. And you talk, can I talk about, I, this, this also, I want, you mentioned it just then, so I'm going to bring it up, which is cock sucking.

There is a loss of, cock-sucking in the Little Book of Miriam, especially for someone who describes themselves as a lesbian. I am a lesbian, but I'm not lesbian. It doesn't mean that I'm, that's all I am. And I think nobody says that lesbians can't suck cock. True. No, I know. Who's making the rules here? I mean, I do what I want to do. I don't want to suck cock anymore. So it's no good asking. Don't write in, please. But I did suck cock because my parents said you mustn't sleep with anyone before you're married.

When they say sleep with, they meant fuck. But they would never say that. Anyway, going back to cock sucking in memory only, it gave pleasure. It was easy. I didn't kill anybody. I didn't hurt anybody. I didn't get pregnant. I think it slightly affected my gag reflex.

And so going to the dentist is a little bit difficult now. But I don't regret it. That wasn't, it was not a judgment. It was more that what I get from your writing is that you talk about how pleasure was not your, it wasn't, it wasn't to, It wasn't to be given. It wasn't important.

It wasn't expected. So I think that we are not taught as women that our pleasure matters. And often the pleasure I certainly felt as a young woman, the pleasure I got was out of seeing how much pleasure I could give someone else. Yes, I think that's true. And what is very sad now is that that seems not to have changed. Because porn is. given to kids, men particularly, they expect girls to behave as the people in the photographs behave.

The porn stars behave. Have you ever watched porn? I've seen it. I've never watched it. You know, watch it means that you engage. And you, I can't, I don't get any pleasure from that. It doesn't, it doesn't engage me vaginally in any way. Okay.

I don't want it. I don't need it. I've written down some of the things that really landed in the centre of my heart from this book. And these are, you say, everyone is afraid. We all feel the terror of failure of being overlooked, of being worthless. And elsewhere, you say one of the things you realise is you go through life is that everybody is scared inside. And I think I was quite surprised to read that you say that you come across as a very confident person, but of course inside you're not. And I don't know why that surprised me, because I know what it's like to be human.

But I just thought that was a really beautiful. I believe it's true. I think that we have to present a front. You know, there's a Dutch phrase, which is a, which Heather taught me, my partner, which is Dremple-Fraise. And it means the fear of going beyond your front door, the threshold, which is the dremple. And I think we all kind of gear ourselves to go out and meet the world. And we take a step away from who we really are in order to present ourselves.

to the world. And I know I do it, and I think everybody, therefore, does it. I'm no different to everybody else in that way. So I feel I want to comfort people and say, you know, we're all like that. We all feel that. You don't need to, but I know what it's like. I just think it helps people to feel that their own sense of inadequacy is shared. I think it's a really helpful thing.

I definitely am going to give you my number. I mean, I was always going to give you my number, Miriam. There was never any question. But it's, I'm definitely going to be person 11,894. I do not have that many contacts in my phone. Well, you haven't lived as long as I have. Well, we've got these phones now. now that we can do it then and there, you see, which is good.

Which is helpful. It's helpful. The only people I speak to, really, on the phone are my daughter and my husband. So you have one child. I've only got one. I have an only child, yes. I knew I never wanted children. I always knew that from the very beginning.

And I'm not sorry that I am barren. I'm a barren old maid. But I'm not really an old maid because I've had a lot of vaginal joy one way or another. Yeah. You've, I mean, but the best. Nothing anal. Nothing anal. I really want to make that clear.

Okay, okay. We'll make that clear. Okay. Everything coming out, nothing going in. Okay. Except occasionally a suppository. Okay. You have to do that sometimes.

We do. All of us. And I do advertise suppositories on television. Is it Anasol? I've never known quite how to pronounce it, but I think it is. Okay. Is it part of your contract with Anasol that you have to be clear that even though you advertise Anasol, you do not engage in anal sex? No. It's never come up, as the actress said to the bishop.

Another entry in the book. But I had a question about Leonardo DiCaprio as a great shopping companion. You thought he was gay? I did think he was gay because he wore a dress. Oh, I mean, that's... I know. I mean, he was, I don't know, looking for comment. I mean, I think he likes people to be talking about him. So when you say he was wearing a dress, was it just the two of you and he'd put a dress on?

Yeah. Oh, really? Okay. But a very nice guy and a very nice guy. fine actor and a great shopping companion. So this is why you're filming Romeo and Juliet, which is certainly for people of my generation, it was a sort of era-defining movie. We all swooned over Leonardo DiCaprio. As you say in the Little Book of Miriam, you were the only person who didn't swoon over.

No, I liked him. I thought he was a jolly nice chap. and I liked the way he looked at life and he was splendid. But Claire was wonderful too. Claire Daines. Yes. She was remarkable. But so sweet and vulnerable.

So Leo, as I'm going to call him, as if I know him, so how did you come to be shopping with Leo in a dress? Well, we were in Mexico City. That's what you do in there. I'm just going to fart. Do you mind? No, go for it. It can be in or out of the program.

There we go. Better out than in. Yeah, I just think, you know, why not? Well, I'm glad that you feel comfortable enough. That's what you do in Mexico City. You go shopping with Leonardo DiCaprio in a dress. He was there and I said, I'm going to the markets. And he said, oh, can I come with?

And I said, with pleasure. So we went shopping. But why was he wearing a dress? well you'd have to ask him that i don't know what dress was he wearing what was it like i can't remember it was just a summer dress he was hot he likes the feeling of the air between his oh i suppose so and i just said i think you're gay and he said no i'm not i'm not i said i think you'll find you are but i was wrong you were wrong he's not gay so my gaydar is at a fault there and have you have you ever have you heard from him

since? I haven't heard from him since but I've met him and he's been a sweetheart. I think he's a terrific actor and a lovely bloke. Is he in your phone book? No, I didn't ask for his phone. I don't want celebrities. They're not important. You want real people? And I think there might be another fart. I have to raise a button. There we go. I love it. I love it. I want to ask one more question because I thought this was very telling you're an incredibly funny woman you are

you know you make people laugh you bring people joy there is lovely thank you there is an entry in the little book of Miriam about the about working on footlights being part of footlights

at Cambridge and working with the men who would go on to create Monty Python and how they just could not handle you as a woman because you were a funny woman. You were funny and they sort of expected, they wanted women to be dolly birds.

Yes. I thought that was the most telling, fantastic anecdote in the book and I just wanted to hear more about it from you. I think in those days, footlights which was a light entertainment club didn't have to accommodate women just as the rest of Cambridge didn't have to you know we were in a minority and we were allowed to be there rather than welcomed and I have never felt like that about myself I take up the space I take in the world

and I think it's equal and worth anybody else's space in the world. So I didn't moderate my humility. I didn't moderate my confidence. I just went into it as I would anything else, and they didn't like it. My mother was so thrilled that I was part of the footlights that she rang the Oxford Mail, which was the newspaper, there and she gave her an interview about me and said, you know, she's brilliant, et cetera, et and I think that really got up their nose. I didn't tell Mummy to do that. She just did it

out of her own pleasure in my achieving success. So they didn't like me and they showed they didn't like me by refusing to talk to me or look at me off stage. So every night I would go on, do the show, be brilliant in it, get lots of laughs, and then come off and be ignored and diminished. And I've never forgotten it, and I've never forgiven the two main people who were John Cleese and Graham Chapman. Graham's dead, makes no difference. He was a cump then, and John Cleese is unfortunately a bitter old man. I don't quite know why. I'm not bitter. I'm just pissed off and I'm still pissed off.

And it shows that I'm not good at letting things go because, you know, it's something like 60 years ago. I should let it go. But I remember the pain. I remember the hurt. I remember how I would cry when I went home. And why would they do that to me? Performers, real proper performers, don't behave like that.

So I turn my face against light entertainment. I wanted to be an actress. And it's nice that I'm, if I am funny, I'm pleased I'm funny because it's a good thing to be funny. But I'm not funny, I hope, at other people's expense. I don't want to make someone unhappy because I've made a joke. I want people to just relish the humanitarian,

we share and maybe see life in a slightly different way. And unfortunately, I can't forget when people are nasty to me. And I haven't forgotten. And I've forgiven those who were lovely to me because afterwards Timbrook Taylor, Eric Idle, not Bill Odie, you know, it's over, but it's not over in my heart. and in my consciousness. And I know it makes me look like a silly old fart, but that's the truth. I think it's,

I think it's something that resonate deeply with many women being diminished, as you say, in their professions, and how little, you know, in the past, certain people they've worked with have cared about them. But look, who's having the last laugh, now. There you go. Thank you so much, Miriam Margulies. The Little Book of Miriam is out this week

on Thursday, the 11th of September. I've had a lovely time. Thank you. I bloody love Miriam Margulies for being so unapologetically herself. And I hope today she's given you a bit of permission to be more unapologetically yourself. I'd love it if you shared today's episode with someone who needs a hug and a laugh in podcast form and please follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast because it really helps us to reach more people. But most importantly, take care and I'll see you next week.