The Life Of Bryony - My Story Made Prince William Cry – Rhian Mannings on Losing Her Son and Husband Within Days of Each Other

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

This week I’m joined by the extraordinary Rhian Mannings – a woman whose story of loss, resilience, and purpose has touched hearts around the world, even moving Prince William to tears. At 33, Rhian lost her baby son George and, just five days later, her husband Paul, took his own life. In this deeply moving conversation, she talks about surviving the unimaginable, the loneliness and stigma that accompany suicide, and how she channelled her pain into founding the charity 2wish, which supports families facing sudden bereavement. We also discuss the physical impact of grief, navigating motherhood after trauma, and the importance of speaking openly about mental health and suicide. Rhian’s honesty and openness shine through every word – a reminder that even in our darkest moments, there can be light, love, and purpose again.LINKS TO SUPPORT GROUPSIf the content of this episode resonated with you today and you would like support, please consider the following charities:Rhian’s charity, 2wish:https://2wish.org.uk/Sue Ryderhttps://www.sueryder.org/ for expert grief support, including an online bereavement community available 24/7.SamaritansCall 116 123 or visit https://www.samaritans.org/ for free, 24-hour support.IF YOU LIKED THIS EPISODE, YOU MAY ALSO WANT TO LISTEN TO:'I never thought I'd be happy again in my life.' Lottie Tomlinson on Accepting GriefWE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUGot something to share? Message us @lifeofbryonypod on Instagram.CREDITS:Host: Bryony GordonGuest: Rhian ManningsProducer: Laura Elwood-CraigAssistant Producer: Tippi WillardStudio Manager: Sam ChisholmEditor: Luke ShelleyExec Producer: Jamie East  A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today on The Life of Briney, we're talking about how you cope when the unimaginable happens. Riann Manning's was 33 when she lost both her one-year-old son, George, and her husband Paul, within days of each other. She recently moved Prince William to tears as she shared her story with him. And today, Rian and I are going to speak about how she's turned her tragedy into purpose by setting up a charity that helps other people experiencing sudden bereavement. If he'd have walked out and his heart stopped, we would talk about it more openly, but instead he went out and his mind stopped, his soul stopped. But people couldn't speak about this amazing man because of what happened to him.

And that has to change. My chat with Rianne coming up right after this. Rian, welcome to the life of Brianie. It is wonderful to have you. here. Thank you. Thank you for having me today. So, um, recently, you, uh, have been in the news because your story made Prince William cry. And I wanted to get you in because I've known you since 2017 when we both did that London marathon together for heads together. Yep. And so I know your story. And it is a story that I think, uh, just to, to, to, to, to,

let listeners know, get tissues, be prepared, because it is an incredibly moving story, but it's also a powerful story of how to survive the unimaginable and how to keep going. And I wanted to create a podcast that is there for people to, if they're going through right now, something that has come out of the blue that they didn't expect, they didn't think it would ever happen to them, and they don't know how they're going to get through. next hour, let alone the next day. I wanted to create a podcast for them to listen to. And Rian, to me, you are the epitome of surviving the unimaginable. There's so much to talk about, but the facts are that, well, can you tell us?

Yeah, of course, you know, and it is difficult for people to listen to, but I think it's important to share it. And have you found over the years that it becomes easier to share it or that you sort of almost dissociate when you're talking about it? Yeah, I think I do. When I'm talking about it, I don't feel very much. Afterwards, I feel quite tired. I get quite tearful. But I think I've done it now for so long and it's a real passion of mine.

Yeah, no, and it's important to share it. You know, we were an everyday family and sadly these things happen every day. So you were married to Paul and you have. We had three young children. Yep, very young children. Three under three. Wow. Quite chaotic.

Some might say silly, but it was everything we'd ever wanted. Yeah, we were really, really lucky. Okay. So your children are, the eldest is Isaac. Holly. Holly, then Isaac. Yep. And then you had baby George.

Yes, that's right. So you're living just outside in Cardiff? Just outside Cardiff. Yep. You're a P teacher? was, yes. And as you say, this is the life you've imagined. And then just after you go back to work, after maternity leave with George, the first unimaginable thing happens. Could you talk us through that? Yeah, of course. It was a normal day. I'd been in work. I came home. The children

were bathed as they always were, you know, were by both of us, took them down to stairs, always a bit chaotic. George was always so happy and smiley and just crawling around everywhere. But sadly, He fell ill very suddenly. He started having a fit at home. He was rushed to the local hospital where the staff were amazing. We weren't quite unsure of why this had happened so suddenly. But sadly within two hours of being admitted to the hospital, George died. Wow.

You know, how do you react to that? Because it was just so unexpected. He was just laughing and smiling. There was no sign of anything that was going to go wrong. in two hours our hearts, you know, our hearts were broken and our lives had changed forever. It turned out he had influenza. Yeah, influenza and pneumonia. Right.

But it took us four months to find that out, which we were lucky to find out, I think. Some families never find out, but came as a massive shock. The brain obviously has to work overtime to protect you during these moments. Do you have any clear memories of that day or that time? more? Is it just a sort of bit of a blur? No, I remember it really vividly. I think I've talked about it a lot as well. So I think that sort of keeps it quite fresh. But I can remember a lot about it. You know, and I think when I went on to be diagnosed with PTSD, it was a lot of the smells I can remember what I heard, what I saw, and everything that went on that day.

So you were later diagnosed with PTSD. So you are dealing. with this sudden loss and then it, you know, and you think nothing worse. I imagine you're thinking this is the worst thing that could happen. Yeah. But the universe was going to throw you something even worse. Yeah, definitely. And yeah, you think your life couldn't get any worse, really. So we sort of got through the next few days, Paul and I, we talked a lot.

We had our family around us. We had, you know, the two and three-year-old as well, we had to keep going for Holly and Isaac. But sadly, five days after George died, Paul just couldn't live with what had happened and sadly walked out the house and took his own life. And then you really don't know how you're going to keep going. You know, you just can't imagine. I couldn't imagine life without George, but then without Paul, my soulmate, like my best friends, the best dad to the kids. It was, yeah, it was a really frightening place to be in. How long had you and Paul been together?

We'd been together for how long we'd been together, about 13 years at this point. Wow, okay. Yes, so a long time. I took a long time down and we got married. Yeah, it took a while for that to happen. But, yeah, and it was just a huge hole in your life. Can I ask you a bit about you and Paul and your relationship? Because I know when someone died,

by suicide, like often afterwards, I imagine that person sort of becomes almost defined by that. And actually, but there's also a whole, there's a whole life there, you know, that wasn't suicide. Paul was a man, he was a human, he was a character, he had a personality. And I just really like for a moment to talk to you about that, how you met, how you fell in love, what he did. I I know he was into rugby, cricket, all of that stuff. Yeah. Would you kind of treat us? I love talking about him.

It's really important. And I think, yeah, he was the most amazing person. He used to go to the school I had my first teaching job at. So he came home to play an old boy's cricket match. Okay, hang on. So, okay, just to make that very clear, he wasn't your student. Yeah, can I make that clear? Because that's, every time I say it, you can see people going, oh.

No, no, he was definitely not my students. He was an old boy. An old boy. Okay. Yes. And he came back to play cricket. And we were set up on a blind date following the match. And yeah, it was a bit slow off the mark to start with. He was amazing. But we were very different. He was public school boy. I was this Welsh girl who loved playing rugby, drinking beer and all of that type of thing. But it worked. And very quickly then we got together. We rented our first little house there. But I just missed home. I missed Wales. This was down in Somerset. Okay. And he could work anywhere. He worked on the sort of M4 corridor so we could move.

And I eventually dragged him over the Seven Bridge, where we settled, got married and had the three children under three, so very quickly. But he was just, he just lit up the room. He was tall. He had presents. He was the kindness, kindness person. And was just, every day I spent with him, I always used to pinch myself. And that sounded a real cliche, but I just felt he's chosen me to be. be his wife to settle down with and yeah and I you know it's a long 13 years ago now since I

lost them and it's taken a long time for me to actually sit here and and think how lucky I was and smile about it because it hurts when you remember what you've lost how long did it take for you to be able to sit and smile about Paul and George a long time a long time You know, even now you have mixed emotions, you have sad days. You know, you have angry days. I've had angry days with Paul and not the way I think people presume it is when someone dies by suicide. I'm angry because he's just missed out on so much with the children and them growing up. And it would have been okay.

We would have been okay. So it took me nearly six years to cry. Really? Yeah. Nearly. You know, I had the odd tear. But for six years, I was, I can do this. I'm an independent woman.

I don't need a husband. I've got two young children. I've still got two amazing children. I've got loads of friends around me. I can do this. And you put this mask on that so many of us wear day to day anyway and thought, no, I'm going to go back to work and I can do this.

And it took me nearly six years for me to realize. I woke up one morning and I suddenly couldn't feel my hands and my feet. I'd worried I'd had some kind of stroke or something along those lines. Went to the doctor and realized that this was the start really of some kind of mental. breakdown episode, and that's when I first had some psychiatric support. Okay. And that's when I started rebuilding my life and actually feeling some real immense pain. But then that could then start becoming glimmers of joy that I could then identify.

Because before that, there was nothing. There was no joy. There was no sadness. There was nothing. You were just numb for six years. Nothing. So do you think you went into sort of, you just went into surviving? mode. Can we go back to talking about suicide and how I imagine people ask sort of really

sort of silly maybe questions that are, you know, people deal with suicide in a really weird way. It's like it's a very stigmatised thing still. And yet we know that someone dies by suicide in this country every 90 minutes. So this is something that is happening a lot. Okay. And we know that with men as well, if you were a man under the age of 45, the thing that is most likely to kill you is not a heart attack. It's not a car crash. It's yourself. Right? So this is a real problem with men. And you have spoken about when you did the chat with Prince William, which we'll get on to later, but you spoke about how it literally came out of the blue. Now, obviously, it wasn't so out of the blue because you had lost George five days before. But

this wasn't the kind of thing you would have expected with Paul. This wasn't, it was just not something that ever crossed your mind. No. And I think it's important to ask these questions because people want to ask the questions, but there's still that fear of getting it wrong and upsetting somebody. I think that's what it is, isn't it? Is that avoidance? But I look back every minute, every day, I think, did I miss something?

Yeah. And that's not me. That's a very, very common feeling after you lose. someone by suicide and actually I don't think I did and he before we lost George we had everything going for us he was very laid back nothing really phased him he was a very happy go lucky guy so when this happened what happened obviously caused a lot of people to be surprised but when they put the two of Paul and this together people were just like it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How did people treat you afterwards? Gosh, I could talk all day about this.

It's something, yeah, and it's something that I do find difficult to talk about because there are people who just came with their arms open. It didn't make any difference. There were people who talked to me about Paul dying and would not say how that happened or anything along those lines. And then we had people who just avoided the situation altogether, avoided me for a long time and a lot of people would honestly say I can't believe he did that to you you were going through enough and then I had people who years later said we were so angry with him we found it really hard to support you because we just thought he was so selfish

wow and that's okay because I'd never supported anyone like this I don't know what my initial feelings would have been like but I can tell you now that this man would never intentionally have left me or hurt me especially as you children and I think this is where this stigma is around people not talking about it because someone came to my house and said to me it's like if he'd have walked out and his heart stopped we would talk about it more openly but instead he went out and his his mind stopped his soul stopped but people won't talk to you about it and I know

people who knew Paula died months and months before but didn't know how the story never hit the press unbelievably at the time so people had to tell people what had happened. And that's hard. That's hard that people felt they couldn't speak about this amazing man because of what happened to him. And that has to change. I think also this, I think it's quite a common assumption that suicide is selfish, you know. And I know that I have certainly spoken to people who, when they have found the courage to vocalize their suicidal feelings. have sometimes been met with people going, don't, just don't. Please don't. I can't, you know,

like, please don't, just don't talk about it. You know, and that's awful. I, we know that people who are experiencing suicidal feelings, far from this being selfish, they genuinely believe that they are a burden on people and that they will be relieving people of that burden. And that is so, important for us to understand and to remove that stigma. And it doesn't matter why, you know, like what has happened. Our brains are fantastically complicated things. And there are many reasons why you might feel like a burden. And we know that that is, that's the sort of a massive symptom of depression. And we can only get better at this by talking about this and by talking about these rather uncomfortable facts about what people think about suicide.

Yeah, exactly what you say. You know, and that weekend, Paul was adamant that he'd let us down. He'd failed us because he should have saved his son. He felt he as a dad had let his family down. As a wife, he'd let me down. And, yeah, and there's so many people who I've spoken to who have thought about it and have said, they just feel that they're just not wanted and they're not needed.

And that hurts me because, you know, as I said and I said to Prince William, we would have been okay if we'd have had that opportunity to talk, if he'd have spoken to me about anything. And we did speak, but obviously, obviously not enough. But the more we speak about it, the more we use the words, suicide and taking our, you know, your own life, it's so important. It is because it doesn't have to end like that. it doesn't have to happen if we have these conversations.

Well, it is so important because people still use phrases. Many years ago, I did a campaign with an MP about we sent letters to all of the editors of national newspapers and all of the editors of news shows to say, please, can you stop using the term committed suicide? And people still do, and that isn't no blame. But to explain to people, when you explain to them that the reason we used to say committed suicide is because until 1961, it was a criminal offence to attempt suicide. I mean, which is when you think about it is unbelievable. But that's really quite recently in history.

So it's seen as a crime. Yeah. And people questioned if I could have a funeral. This is 13 years ago. People asked me, can you have a few? funeral because he took his own life in a church. You know, people are still, I don't understand that. And there's a lot of religion around this as well, which obviously we won't go into, but there's a lot of these stereotypes that we've got to bring these barriers down. We just have

to. And you say about the word committed is something that I've been really keen to look at because it's still being used by, I've been interviewed a lot over the last two weeks. Two reporters have still used that word. Wow. And how do you feel when you hear it? Do you blanche? Do you Do you correct them? Afterwards, I will correct. During the interview, I don't, don't because I don't want to make them feel even more uncomfortable. But I will follow up afterwards with an email to say, you know, please, can we not use that terminology? Because it's that type of terminology, I think, that is still creating this stigma and that people who don't know much about it.

That's the type of terminology they're hearing. Yeah. So just for anyone listening who wonders what they should say, the term is died by suicide. Died by suicide. Or I often still use took his own life. Took his own life. Yeah. Okay. So going back to 13 years ago and I'm, you, this, these unimaginable tragedies, just one of them is more tragedy than most people have to deal with in their lives. And you say that it took you six years before you actually felt anything. And that in itself is quite a common, um, response to grief. You just, you shut down. basically. Oh, you do. And I still don't feel the emotions I used to. Like I used to cry about someone died on neighbours and all of that, you know, all of these things. I used to get very emotional about things. It takes a lot to, does take a lot now to make me emotional. And we,

you know, you have this dark sense of humour, which I'm happy to talk about as well. But, you know, I call myself the ice cream. Because it takes a lot to make me really happy or really sad and I think that's more probably your protection mechanism for yourself but also that day I could just feel everything going and it was really hard to get that back into your life really yeah the day that George died yeah you can just feel your everything leaving you and when when Paul died I lost all physical tone in my body I just sat on the sofa just just dribbling really I dribbled and was sick on myself for days really yeah and you it's a physical response people think grief is a mental response which many factors of it is but I didn't realize the impact I had on you

physically and that pain inside you and those pins and needles and just yeah it's hard really hard this is the thing about grief is that it's like it isn't anything like like we expect it, is it? And you're right, it's curiously physical and comes and goes in waves. I have recently lost someone dear to me and to watch how brains look after people and protect people in the most unimaginable circumstances

is, I mean, I don't want to say it's fascinating, sounds kind of glib, do you know what I mean? Because this isn't an experiment in brain chemistry. It is. This is people's real lives. But I think it's so important we talk about this because people don't know how to handle grief in this country, you know. They don't know how to talk about it.

Some people are good at it. Other people, like you say, like just won't talk to you, you know. And then people, I know there are people that are saying, like my best friend who lost her husband quite suddenly last year, she said that, you know, people are worried about upsetting her. And she said, but how could you upset me any more than I already are? You've been to the worst thing. You've been to the worst thing possible.

It's going to take a lot to upset you, you know. But also, I got upset by people ignoring me. It's harder. Yeah. So the grief, the grief I went through, what it affected. So the missing that person and crying about them is what people think grief is. And it is. But actually, it's the identity you lose.

that's what hit me the most that I didn't realize that you become this whole different person overnight. So I was a mother of three. I became a mother of two. Then I lost my husband and became a double mum to the children. I was 33. That doesn't happen to 33-year-olds. And then you're trying to look in the mirror

and you don't recognise yourself. And I had a job I loved and I didn't even want to go and do that anymore. And I just didn't know how I got up every morning to live a life. And people expect you to react differently. People expect certain reactions from you. And I think the older generation sometimes expected to wear black, I think, for the next sort of 10 years. But people crossing the road, because they don't know what to say to you, has an impact on you.

It didn't offend me because I knew why they did it. They were worried they would upset me. But all I needed was them just to either nod or acknowledge me or just to say, I'm really slow. I know, you know, I've heard what you're going through. You know, it's hard. People don't know what to say. That's the elephant in the room. We talk about that a lot at the organisation I run now.

We use elephants a lot because I have three children. Talk to me about Holly Isaac and George. Just one is no longer with me. I had a husband called Paul. Use his name. It's really important. And there is no guide. There's no guide on what to say because we're all different.

The bereaved are all different. But you'll get a sense straight away how they want to talk about this going forward. You mentioned just then that you became the person that you used to read about in the newspaper. And I think that is something I know, you know, I have heard happens when you people go through the unimaginable. The thing they think will never happen to them. Yeah. When it happens to them. How lonely is that, Rian? So lonely. I think grief is the loneliest place to be because you're in your own head. I had so many visitors and friends and family around me following George and Paul's death and I still do but no one no one understands how

I feel and the person who would have understood the closest he's no longer here with me either so you know even though we would have dealt with things differently and we clearly did but no one understands how I feel and I speak to parents who've been through very similar things lost their child in similar circumstances but they're not going to understand me and I'm not going to understand them but what you can do is sit and talk and have that common feeling that this should not happen you shouldn't lose your child you shouldn't lose your child you know the way that we did as families and it's important that you have that opportunity to talk and share how did you deal with trying to find out what had happened to george while also trying to get through the grief

of losing paul i'd be honest i think with george i'd given up on the fact that we'd get a call There was no cause at all in the first early days. So I thought, sadly, we were going to be a family. And there's many of them out there who they put their child to bed and the child doesn't wake up and sometimes never find out how. And I actually thought that was. So when we actually got a cause of death, we were really surprised by that. And I was surprised he was so poorly.

And it doesn't matter how many people I speak to from the medical profession, I feel as a mother I should have known he was poorly. Did I miss something? It's often a silent killer. of children and babies, but as a mum, probably should have known or perhaps I missed something. This is influenza type A. Influenza type A. Yeah, and pneumonia. And he was very poorly with it.

But I didn't think about any of that. I literally just was trying to think of getting up in the morning and getting my kids ready for school and nursery and just being a mum still to them because they'd lost so much. So, yeah, so how, okay, so let's go back. So you spend six years ineffectively just shut down because that's the only way that you can survive. Yeah. And then one day you wake up and you are going through some sort of breakdown, which potentially is actually the grief just breaking through. Yeah.

And you get diagnosed with PTSD? Yeah. Could you talk a bit about PTSD and how it showed up for you? You mentioned earlier the smells, the sounds, the sound. that you remember very clearly from the day. And I just want to check first before we go into this. I mean, we're already in it. But can I just check in with you, Rian?

Yes, of course. Because this is like heavy stuff. Yeah, I'm fine. You're fine. I'm fine. Yeah. And, you know, afterwards it will be tiring. But it's something I'm really passionate about.

And I'm in a place where I couldn't have done it, talked about the therapy as much then. But I'm happy to talk about it now because there may be people out there who are experienced different things and just may need to have a chat with someone and to see if there is potentially some help out there for them. Because we don't, I don't think we know, I don't think people understand how much we keep trauma in the body.

So as you said, you think that grief is going to be an emotional thing and a mental thing. But we do, you know, we store trauma physically and it can come back to us in the form of PTSD. Yeah. So how did you go about finding out that you had PTSD? And how was it explained to you? So I was a real trauma scanner. So all day, every day, I'd be scanning for the next bad thing to happen to me. Okay. So I'd get up in the morning and that the children would go in the car and I'd just presume we'd get, perhaps hit by another car. When the children got out the car, I'd presume something had happened to them. And that'd gone on for a long time. But I just presumed that was just part of what I'd been through.

The nightmares, the flashbacks. All of these. types of things, I just thought was because I'd been through a really tough time. But when I went to the doctor, when I started feeling really uneasy, really frightened about life in general, they then, you know, I was very fortunate to get to see somebody, a psychotherapist, to sit down and just talk about the things and how I was feeling. And basically, I was just literally waiting for the next bad thing to happen to me. And there was some really other things that, again, I didn't realize, I was like, I couldn't open my front door if I didn't know who it was. So the doorbell would go.

I'd have to go into the lounge and look out of the lounge window to see who was there. And I could see it was the Amazon man and then I was fine. Do you think that was because you had had this bad news broken to you? Yeah, right. But I didn't put the two and two together in that sense. But then when I started having support and treatment, and I actually had EMDR therapy through that, which for me, again, everyone's different, but for me, it changed my life. The things that came out of that was, you know, the reason I couldn't answer, I couldn't answer my phone to an unknown number.

I couldn't answer the front door because it was someone coming to tell me someone else had died. And it was crippling my life. And I could sit and talk about my experiences, which I do like today, but I couldn't go to Tesco's. And even now I suffer, I do suffer with my anxiety still. And there's some really odd things I find difficult. So what would you mind, do you mind talking about? No, of course not. So, yeah, Tesco is a massive thing.

or supermarket. Why is that? I don't really know. I think it's because it took a long time to go in the beginning. I think a lot of people ignored me there. Right. I had a lot of funny looks. I just found supermarkets.

There was just a lot of people. There was a lot of noise. And I just couldn't, you know, find sort of a quiet place there. Go in places. And a lot of these are, you know, go in places and not knowing where I'm going to park my car. I know a lot of people feel anxious about that. I don't sleep for days sometimes before I go in somewhere in my car because I worry I'm going to get lost and what if then something happens to me

and I can't get home to my children. My children now, my daughter now drives a car. That's taken my anxiety to a whole new level. Right, yeah, yeah. So everything I experience is normal. When you have a 17-year-old who starts driving, most parents find that quite tricky. Yeah, of course.

Mine is like she's going to die. Yeah. and we talk about it a lot and they laugh at me and you don't want your anxieties to rub up on your children but she's not going to come home so it's lots of these things which you think but George died in a hospital because of an illness

but you just add it all together and get a hundred and then you spiral how do you go from this it would be that is an incredibly understandable reaction to unbearable tragedy, right? Yeah. And again, you know, as you say, I can't understand what you've gone

through, but I can imagine that it would be very easy to find yourself in a place where you were furious with the world, where you are constantly saying, why me, why me? And everything feels very unfair. How do you go from that to the woman that you are today, who is a woman who has set up this incredible charity to wish, which helps people affected by the sudden loss of children. And you have taken this negative is not that doesn't even cover it to say, you've taken a negative and turn it into a positive. Again, it sounds glib. But how do you get from there to there? How do you shift that head? How do you dig yourself? How do you dig yourself out of it because I feel like if there's anyone listening to this right now who is in the depths

of grief and doesn't, doesn't, can't see how they will ever get out of it and how they will ever be okay again. You to me are proof that things can change and will change and I wanted to know how did it change for you? So anger is something that Of course, I experienced. I didn't want to leave the house for a long time because every else was smiling and everyone was happy and everyone was, you know, their lives were going on and mine wasn't.

But I also never, ever, ever wanted anyone to feel like I did. And I had to believe that that stupid saying that maybe this had happened to us for a reason because Paul and George, they didn't, they couldn't go in 2012. They had to live on. And that is where my passions come from, is making sure that I live a life for them. Yes, setting up the charge to help people in their memory, but also I get up every morning.

And when I feel crappy, and I do, quite a few mornings still, I think, well, they're not here. They're not going to experience life today, and I need to experience it for them. I wanted to help other families because I truly, truly believe if we'd have had help after losing George, Paul would be here today. He would be watching his children grow up. And that is what powers me every single day because George died very suddenly of an illness and sadly children do die.

You never want it to be your own, but they do. Daddies do not walk out the house and take their own life every day and that shouldn't happen. And if we'd had support, like to wish offers, they would be here today. So To Wish has helped me as much as we've helped other people genuinely.

but I also needed something to make me feel like I was worth something because when Paul and George died, I felt so worthless. I felt like no one liked me. I felt that people thought this was my fault. I think probably the people crossing the street, that doesn't help. I felt like I was a really bad person and this has happened to me because I'm a bad person. And that is something more than my grief I've struggled with for 13 years.

You know, a lot of the support and therapy I had was around me hating myself. Really? And I think doing to Wish just gives me purpose again. You know, I'm far from Perth. I've got loads to learn, and it's been a steep learning curve running a charity. But I just needed to feel that every day I got up and just hopefully touched another life or Paul and George touched another life. And that's really what's kept me going.

So when, what year did you set up to Wish? Six months later. Six months later, right, okay. So I've always been a positive person. Love a clipboard, love a spreadsheet. And I just thought, I've got to do something. And it was never supposed to be what it's become. It was supposed to be something for my local village

because they are the reason I'm able to sit here today. They are the people who help me. I wanted to set up for our local hospital, which is literally a mile away where George died, and that it just wasn't equipped to support our family. But I got a few knockbacks from the health board. what did they say they actually said to me

that not enough people died in our local hospital to warrant the use of the money I'd raised because I wanted to put a room for families to use well okay and how did that feel I think that's when I changed forever because I think I cried all the way home

thinking no one cares about us George was just a number Paul was just a number but actually that's when I thought I'm going to show you and that is honestly when I think think I changed because I thought, no, they mattered and I matter and families out there matter and I'm going to bloody show you. And that's how it started and I never in a million years did

I expect it to grow as it has, but I'd obviously identified something that when people go into A&E and sadly a lot of people die, families just go home. And you don't hear from anyone. We didn't hear from anyone. George died. No one rung us. No one came to us. Just abandoned. No wonder we felt like no one cared about us or George. And now to wish fills that gap. People will get a phone call and this happens. So make sure they're okay. They don't have to have support if they don't want it,

but they can have a cup of tea with someone. Because we needed someone to sit with us and say, everyone's different, but you will feel moments of guilt. You will feel you could have prevented this. And that's where Paul would be here today. If someone had just sat with him and said, come on, we'll be okay, talk about it.

How did you say about when you first raised the money? Can we talk about how you have gone about raising this money? Because you just went out and did your own, you did sort of, you did crazy running adventures, didn't you? Yeah. Well, I just, what, why I always feel to wish is quite special. And I think the team I've got really special is that we really want to belong to the community. So we raise majority of our money is through community fundraising because we feel

you're in the community, so you're starting conversations around grief. You're bringing people together who, if they haven't, if they're not grieving, they'll try and start understanding how families work and how families want to talk about it. So we do a lot of fundraising and we get out and we do crazy walks and runs. And I think people think, because we're a bereavement charity, it's going to be nothing but sadness. But actually, this is about hope. This is about coming together and realizing that, yes, you will feel guilty when you start living.

and when you start growing and when you start growing through this pain but actually it's okay because if you're still here you've got to live a life but being with people who cry and laugh I think changes so much and that's what I've wanted to do

not only be in a role model to my kids because I want them to see that we can be resilient, we can survive horrendous things but also to go out for people to see that life can throw you these awful things but bit by bit you can start rebuild in your life. So what was the first challenge that you did? The first challenge I did

was a 10K. Okay. And people, I know that doesn't sound that cool. So this is really important because we've all got to start somewhere and there'll be people listening for whom 10K sounds like a very long way. I mean, it certainly does to me some days. I think, because I was a PE teacher, people presume, oh, super fit. No, I was an elite athlete. Elite athlete. And I'd like to think we're both elite athletes. We are, yeah. Of course. But, um, I just don't think it matters what you do. If it's something that just pushes you out of your comfort zone, you know, it could just be a five-mile walk if you don't walk very often.

You know, people say, wow, I couldn't do a marathon and I couldn't do, because I've done Kilimanjaro, Everest Base Camp. Sorry. I know, these crazy things. You've done Kilimanjaro, Everest Base Camp. Yeah. Three marathons. Yeah.

Four marathons, not include one another, not just London. Okay, so four marathons. Yes. Okay. And didn't you do something where you just ran all over? Like, why do I feel like you did a sort of... I did a five marathons in five areas of Wales, jumped out of the plane. I've done a lot of cycling. I'm not fit.

Don't please don't think, oh, it's all right. You sound pretty fit to me. It sounds quite cool. But no, I'm bloody stubborn. That's what I am. There's no way I wasn't going to finish these things I started. And they were hard, really hard. but we're not talking about climbing to Everest Base Camp

we're talking about just try something new step out of your comfort zone the feeling you get afterwards is phenomenal at the time it can be pretty hard but afterwards you just think yeah and that has helped me a little bit with my self-worth as well because I stop and think I am worth it I am a good person

I try my hardest for my kids and I really hope Paul and George are proud of me they honestly i i think you're amazing can i talk a bit about holly and isa and how you have managed to bring up because i think it's really important to say you are an amazing mom and what you have managed to do is extraordinary to bring up to rounded children against all the odds uh deserves all the praise thank you it deserves i know you've got an mb but you deserve to be made a dame okay so Can we, because, okay, here's the thing. I love that you're laughing and I love that we're smiling and I love that we're talking about these crazy challenges you've done.

Because if there is someone listening who, perhaps they've just lost their husband or their wife or, you know, they've lost. How did you deal and cope with bringing up these tiny children who were two and three at the time? and what and you said earlier you wanted to model them that you were strong how what would you say to anyone going through a bereavement right now while trying to bring up children it's hard and some days it feels feels impossible and you know we're speaking here very honestly and some days I didn't want to yeah you know and I'm honest about that some days I resented the fact I still had children because I couldn't get up and when they want another piece of toast and when they want to go to the farm and they want to do all of this, I just

wanted to lie on the sofa and put a blanket over my head. Did you feel like, because I know this is quite a common thing, did you feel like it would have been easier for you to get through this bereavement if you hadn't had children? Yes and no. So absolutely, but if I didn't have them, I don't know where I'd be today. I generally did because I also had a very close. My parents moved in for a good while with me as well. So when I didn't feel like doing it, we did it with them I felt going out on my own, I was worried something was going to happen to us with my anxiety and everything. So I did have my parents and my rocks with me a lot of the time. But what I would say is don't ever feel guilty for some of these feelings because at the time I felt what an evil person.

I've still got two beautiful children. Okay, I've lost one of them, but I've got so much still to live for, but I didn't want to live. And when I say that, I didn't want to not be here. But I have packed my car several times and driven away. I come back. really but I just I just wanted to run away from it all I also felt and you've asked me this simple question but the answer is so complex I also felt they deserved a better mum I felt they deserved a better life that maybe you know I could have prevented all this happening to them I try to them really good times but now looking back I think perhaps their childhood was did they have a good childhood I think they did but I'm also sure that there was some really difficult times

But I'm also just proud that we've got through it together as well. And looking back, I am so glad. They taught me lessons around, you know, they're very resilient children, and they're very black and white, and they, yeah. And you do, you just have to try your best. And some days, if the best isn't good enough. And I'm saying this because I'm through it a little bit at the time, people aren't going to believe me when I say this when they're listening.

to me because they're going to think, but it's wrong of me to think it, but it's about survival. And actually, kids need routine. They need to feel that they're loved. They need to know that you'll speak to them and answer them if you honestly. But also, it's okay to show them that life is hard. I would sit and cry with them. And even now when I'm struggling, I say to them, I just miss Daddy and George today. And I'd like to think that if they are struggling, they know that's okay as well.

How do you trying, I mean, obviously you have two wish. But are there other ways in which you keep the memory of Paul, memories of Paul and George like going? Yeah, massively. Massively. You know, I remarried in 2018. So I've got a wonderful husband who he deserves all the medals for putting up with me. But our lives are very, you know,

so there's photos of the children and Paul around the house still. A lot of photos of them. Birthdays, Christmas, anniversaries. always do something as a family to remember them. We talk about them. You know, my son looks like him so much, has the same interests as him's, and we bring Paul into those conversations. But I also have a really good life as well. And it's getting that balance right, that they know their life is good. They had a very different life before, but they merge, and they do merge quite nicely into one another. But that's not always easy either. The thing about grief, right, is that it's not something

you get better from it's not like depression you know one day if you do these things this might lift you know like it's always going to be there yeah can you explain to anyone who's there at the beginning of that grief journey who might think oh how it morphs and moves and your life actually shapes around it does that make any sense you know what i say is that My grief is still there in the middle, but my life has just grown around it. It never goes away. And I'm not going to lie and say it does. And you don't want it to go away.

They are still very part of my thoughts and my life. But my life has grown around it. You know, sadly, like it or not, time goes on. And you do get times when you feel a bit stuck in it. But the way I dealt with it was by speaking about it, by trying. trying to experience moments of joy, but I always had to look for the glimmers. I talk about glimmers a lot because it is just so important that however dark it is, there is always a speck of light.

And I sound so cliche, isn't it? But I can't, I couldn't, I couldn't think that was it. I couldn't. And even before the funeral, I can remember sitting, talking to my sister saying, I can't, a 33, think that this is it now for my life. But instead, I'm going to take them with me and just lead a good life. for them. But that is very much easier said than done. It's hard. I mean, it's also you will have a whole other life. Does that make, you know, there will be part of it. But it's hard to

kind of see that at the time, isn't it? Yeah. As I said, my life is great. I've got a really, really happy, great life. I'm lucky. I've got a wonderful husband, beautiful children, a wonderful, thought, I love my job, I've got amazing friends, but I'm still, I always look at myself as I smashed into millions of pieces and I was glued back together very differently. And there's scars and the odd piece chips off occasionally, which you want to. And some days I feel like I just want to sit and remember them and put on the soppy songs and a bit of Westlife and sit there and have a cry and that's quite nice as well sometimes. But everyone is different and you've, you know, you've got to think of how you can live this life.

You have to live it. You know, you've got to live it. So think about how you can do that. So Prince William, you have worked many times with him, I know. He came around to your house and you gave him Welsh cakes and a cup of tea and you sat down. And it was to mark World Suicide Prevention Day. you spoke about suicide and he was very visibly I mean he started crying while you were talking to him and you ended up comforting him yeah sort of yeah I did well sort of I asked if he was okay

and then he actually put his hand on mine first because it's hard isn't it I didn't normally jumped up giving him a big coach but you can't really do that can you although you can I probably could have because he's so welcome and he's so down to earth, isn't he? But, you know, you're being filmed there and it was a moment that sort of went off piece, you know. And yeah, he's human at the end of the day. And I find sometimes, you know, you look on to people like Prince William who live in the, you know, in the public eye. And they've got a lot going on themselves. So I did want to just give him a coach.

I did end up giving him when he left. But at the time, it was just checking in on him, really, and checking he was okay. Because he cares. And does it mean, I mean, how much does it mean to you that he is drawing attention to this subject? Because it's a massive thing. I think we still forget that the royal family talking about subjects as serious and important as suicide and mental health is it's so important, especially coming from a family that for eons, centuries have been known for their stiff upper lip. It shouldn't take someone in the public eye But we know a lot of these campaigns need that

They need that voice, that platform For him to sit there and firstly to come to my home Which was really special I laughed so much when they told me Because I didn't believe it And then when he did it was very surreal But it shows that he wants to be in touch with the people So when he came in, you know

We talked about Paul and George And he met the children were there And then to speak about something So important that he is clearly so passionate about and through the Royal Foundation now they've got this network up and running that we like myself and to wish are part of as well which is fantastic so that's the national suicide helpline prevention network network okay so it's bringing in organisations from across the four countries of the UK together to look at why is this happening so often what support is available

but also what could practices around what can we learn from one another so actually we can really start building this network that the statistics you know you mentioned we can start reducing yeah and just to say we will put all we will put lots of information and help lines in the show notes for anyone who might need support yeah or need someone to talk to yeah speaking of the royals can you tell me about the tupperware the tupperware oh it's made like it's all the people talk about, like, Fafat Prince William actually came, I think is irrelevant now because he went home with my Tupperware full of Welsh cakes.

Was it, what was it, I don't mean to like take this, I don't mean to inject too much silliness into what is essentially a really important subject. But what I do want to know is as someone with a lot of Tupperware in my cupboard, was it like good Tupperware or was it the Tupperware that you get from like the Chinese takeaway? No, it definitely wasn't that. That's good. No, no, we made sure it was a proper. So we had the Tupperware with the Welsh Cakes in,

and it was my mum's new piece of Tupperware. New. New. And he then took the Welsh Cakes home in the Tupperware. But actually, like you said, it was a really heavy meter. The conversation was heavy. But actually, it lifted the conversation. So when he got in the car and went off,

you can just hear the film, a spare, he's taking the Tupperware. He's taking it out. And my mum off-camera went, that was a perfect fit for my freezer. But actually, it was great because the children then can see that we can talk about this. And all right, it's not something to laugh about at all. But actually, this is something that needs to become part of our day-to-day conversations. Okay, so you mentioned earlier the dark humour is essential to survival. So talk about this because this is really important, I think, that you, because as you say,

people do need to know that it is okay to laugh again after these things happen and you do need to be able to find a way through and to be able to lighten the mood sometimes, right? Yeah. I have got a very dark sense of humour. Okay. Can we hear it? Wow.

No, I mean, can you talk about it? I better not. But I think it's got me through. So if you ask my friends about it, like going back, you know, we, we talk about it and I talk about being the, like one of my friends used to call me Britain's favourite widow after it all happened. And, you know, we used to, I've got a couple of mums who lost their children and we call each other the bereaved and effed up club. Right. You know, it's just a WhatsApp group. Yeah, a little, yeah. It's kind of the WhatsApp group

nobody wants to join. Yeah, there's only two people in it. This isn't something. But I think you pick, you find your tribe. Yeah. And sadly, grief is a club you, don't ever want to be part of. Yeah. And there's a few of us and, and you've got to laugh about it. So like when you say, you're having a great day, no, not really. Not really. It's really crap. Yeah. But my sister and I, when it all happened, we became almost probably delirious with it, but everything was funny. Everything was so inappropriate. But actually that sort of continued. And, you know, this is not belittling what we've gone through as like, you know, God, I'm so passionate about everything. But you have to have a dark sense of humor about certain things,

especially the things people say to you. I remember going back to work and someone's saying, wow, you have lost so much weight. Oh, my God. How have you done that? What are the, what, sorry, did they know what had happened to you? Okay, so, but let's talk about this because we did do a podcast at the beginning of life of Briney with the lovely Lossie Tomlinson, whose mother and sister died in quite, quite quickly.

And she spoke about all of the, like, terror, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, things that people say. And I wondered, like, what, because this is actually really useful. Like, what, what should you not say to someone who is? So what were the things that you heard? You should never say, I know how you feel because my dog died. Right. Yeah, that's.

Yeah. In fact, you should never say that, even if you'd lost your own child. You should never say, I know how you feel because you don't. The weight loss thing was brilliant. I did say I wouldn't recommend the diet. And I think she felt worse than I did. You've got other children. oh you're lucky you've still got other children um what other oh it's a long time ago now

i've had people say to me how can you be married again you surely can't love more than one person you know people say things to you and it's because they feel a little bit awkward around you but you also feel like honestly i could write a book on some of the things a lot of them early on where people would you know that flippant remark oh i could go away and kill myself and then they're like oh but actually I know that they didn't mean any harm by that. But there's just so much, there's just some things and you should just,

you're just better off not saying anything that could actually lead to. But then we all do it sometimes as well. So I often say to people are still early days. That's one of the worst things. Because actually it doesn't matter how many days it still feels horrendous. Saying someone's inspirational and brave, that annoys me a little bit. Does it?

Okay. I feel I've got no choice but to keep going, you know. And I'm not brave because actually I'm just stubborn and keep going. I put my big girl pants on. off I go but yeah and everyone's different though things that upset me probably may not upset the other person but it's just just trying to be a little bit thoughtful before you say things yeah and I guess that thing when you say like the inspirational the brave that's sort of where people your story you feel sometimes is like a way that people are like it's almost like

what they're not to say that like tragedy pawns is that I've heard that phrase used before oh the tragedy train And I used to call it. Oh, really? So when someone dies and, oh, God, everyone came running. Everyone, you know, oh, I know Rian and oh, yeah, I spoke to Rian. They all come to the funeral to say they were all there. And then they just, some of them then disappear. And then you never see them again.

And they walk away. And then they move on to the next tragedy. Right, okay. Yeah. But generally, I've been in a really lucky place. I've got incredibly loyal friends. Most of my friends now didn't know Paul and George. I've only got a few that did, you know, some do walk away.

some can't cope with it. And then you've just got people who you've perhaps met on the bike or you've run with. And then you just get this new relationship, really. And they feel they know Paul and George through me really and my memories. So Paul and George, we've spoken about Paul. Could you tell us a little bit more about George? I know he was only, how old?

He was one and a week. Okay. So he was born on Valentine's Day. Okay. So Paul loved that. He thought he didn't have to buy me anything ever again for Valentine's Day. He was obviously the third child, happiest, chilled, had to stick you out ears, massive blue eyes, just got thrown in the car in his baby seat everywhere.

You know, you had to just get on with life, really. But he just brought so much joy to our lives because he was just so happy, always so happy and easy as well. And we wanted more children. Well, I certainly wanted more children. I think poor may have needed some persuading. But I can remember being at uni and being asked, what do you want to do when you graduate? And all I ever wanted to do is to be a wife and a mum. And, you know, I was, unslam.

It's just been a journey that I never really expected. And what do you, when you feel, when you have people like Prince William coming around to your house and, you know, what do you think Paul would say, knowing what you've done in? his and George's name, like what the amazing thing that you've done, the legacy to help other people? I don't know. I do it because it was the right thing to do at the time. It's something I think I just get, I'm in the motions. I don't really reflect on it as much. Perhaps I should. Paul was a very private person. I think, you know, and so sometimes I do think he wouldn't what his photo splashed around and he was quite, you know, he didn't talk that openly about stuff. But I also feel when I have got my dark sense of humour go in, well, mate, you know,

this is what I've decided to do for you and you've got to support me now because this is how I'm going to get through life and this is how I'm going to bring up the kids. So, yeah, I hope so. I know that this little boy with sticky out ears and his wonderful dad, I've helped thousands of people. I've had letters from fathers saying to me, please don't ever be angry with him because we have been close to what happened. And because of Tuish and because of you, we are still here with our families. And I think sometimes that is what takes me back to thinking, they're still helping people. People are still using their name. And I remember when, after they died, and I said, I think I might set up a charity, really meant it really quite

flippantly and remember somebody close to me saying, oh, people will forget them. Whatever you do, people will forget them. I didn't mean it in a particularly nasty way, but he meant, well, I don't really know what he meant, because people do forget, you know, but I think that's another thing that made me think, no, they're not going to forget these two. No way. Rianne, you're amazing. I just want to thank you so much for coming here and talking about, you.

George and Paul. It's just lovely to hear about them and to remember them. And also, I want to thank you for helping people today. I know that this conversation will have helped a lot of people who were in grief. And as you say, every day people are thrown into unimaginable situations that the day before they could never have comprehended. And there's so much in this conversation, and I'm so grateful to you for coming and talking about this incredibly painful. I mean, pain, again, none of these words do it justice, you know. But we're very lucky to have you, Rian. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I really hope that people have listened and, you know, please don't give up. There are organizations out there,

your friends, just don't sit there and feel like there's no way out because there really is. It's not easy to reach out, but please do. Please do. What a woman, Riann Manning's is. If you're going through a bereavement right now, firstly I want to say, I am so sorry. And secondly, that I really hope that this episode has helped you in some small way. Please know that however lonely you might feel at the moment, there are organisations out there that can help. You can find details of them in the show notes as well as information about Rian's amazing charity to wish. Rian will be back on Friday for our special bonus episode,

The Life of You, when she's going to be talking about the key things that supported her through her grief. In the meantime, please share this with someone who might need to hear it, but most of all, look after yourself. I'll see you next time. Thank you.