The Life Of Bryony - Naga Munchetty: Why Women’s Pain Is Ignored – and What We Can Do About It

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

QUICK SURVEY – TELL US WHAT YOU'RE LOVING: We’re running a short survey to get to know you better—so we can keep making the kind of episodes you actually want to hear. Takes 2 mins, promise: https://ex-plorsurvey.com/survey/selfserve/550/g517/250305?list=3 MY GUEST THIS WEEK: NAGA MUNCHETTY This week, I’m joined by the brilliant Naga Munchetty—broadcaster, BBC journalist, and author of It’s Probably Nothing—who is on a mission to change the way we talk about women’s health. ⸻ LET’S STAY IN TOUCH: 🗣 Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might feel seen by Naga’s story—it really makes a difference! Bryony xx BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE: 📚 It’s Probably Nothing by Naga Munchetty A rallying cry for change—and a lifeline for anyone who’s ever had to fight to be taken seriously about their health. CREDITS: 🎙 Presenter: Bryony Gordon 🎙 Guest: Naga Munchetty 🎧 Content Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan 🎥 Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley 📢 Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today on The Life of Briny, how many women have to suffer in silence before healthcare starts really listening? I'm joined by the brilliant Naga Munchetty, broadcaster and author of It's Probably Nothing, to talk about pain, power and why being listened to can change everything. Naga has lived through decades of pain being ignored, and she's turned her experience into a rally and cry for change. Because if we're not advocating for the women in our lives who are unable or too unwell to advocate for themselves, we are losing out on carers, brilliant women in the workplace,

brilliant mothers, daughters, partners, glass ceiling. Why do you think there aren't enough women at the top of business? Because they've got too much shit to deal with that's being ignored. So if you feel that you haven't been listened to about your health, this is a conversation you need to hear. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am Peter Hitchens. And this is The Last Violet Hitchens asking all the big questions.

This week, are we heading for a zombie apocalypse? Probably. And what is the best use of other cream? And that is a question use of other cream? And that is a question to which only Sarah has asked. Do please join us wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. If you like this episode, we think you'll love this. Hi, I'm Marjorie Hernandez, and I'm one of the hosts of The Trial of Diddy, a weekly

true crime podcast where we dig through every element of this incredible case. This week, the last before the trial starts, we talk to Diddy's childhood friend and former record producer, Tim Patterson. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. ["The Life of Bryony Home"] Naga, the first question I ask every person who is kind enough to step into the life of Bryony home.

So comfy here. Is, and you look, can I just say, if people are listening and not watching, you look, I love how you have made that sofa your home. My feet are up. They're hanging off the edge. I haven't put my feet on your beautiful pink scalloped edge. You can do that. No, I wouldn't.

You should not put shoes on sofa. How dare you. Your beautiful pink scalloped velour double seater, because I've got the double-seater, you've got the single. Yeah. And I am very comfy. I've positioned the pillows just right. I'm feeling good.

What is the item that you would bring to the life of Bryony Studio to make you feel at home? Can I have two but they're very similar. Garlic and chili oil. Garlic and chili oil? Yeah. Just a bulb of garlic? As much garlic as I'm allowed. Is garlic your jam? And chili, chili is my jam. So I put Tabasco on practically everything. Really? Yeah, fried eggs on toast, Tabasco. What? Chips, Tabasco. I wonder whether, does your ability to tolerate, this is me, like, I'm taking a very- Oh, look at this segue.

This segue to tolerate extreme heat come from a lifetime of being forced to tolerate pain. You've amused me there as a broadcaster. That was bad. That was bad. But I get it. That was like me trying to psychoanalyse you as well. I don't mind. There's not much to psychoanalyse. No, because chilli is enjoyable. Being doubled over in pain, throwing up and screaming in agony is not. So let's talk about this. So you have written a book called It's Probably Nothing, which is such a brilliant title for a book because it is, those are the three words that women

here have heard time and time again when complaining about, oh we just call them, you know, euphemistically women's issues. Yes, not complaining, reporting. But we're seen as complaining. There's the start. Yes, it's so true. The kind of histrionic attachment that is given to a woman who dares to talk of any discomfort, I mean even just using the word discomfort, like pain around their menstrual cycles. Yes, it's just batshit crazy that it's the year 2025 and we've only scratched the surface of this. And we still feel guilty when we report our pain because we were built for childbirth and pain so it's our lot and every other woman is putting up with it so why aren't you? So we end up gaslighting

ourselves. Yes. And we end up doubting ourselves, we take ages before we report it and then when we report it we say we'd probably say the same things, probably nothing. It's probably nothing. But this has just been troubling me and you know and you can go into the details as you should about how it impacts your life negatively. Yet for many many women over the generations and unfortunately it is still happening now although I do think there's better education amongst GPs and doctors about women's pain they were told to suck it up. Take me back to your first period.

Right do you really want this? I do yeah I really do because I think it's really important and I think it's really important to normalise this stuff. I remember I used to, when I still had periods, I used to hide my tampon up my sleeve. The very fact that a piece of cotton wool with string attached to it was the height of period technology until they came up with period pants recently.

Wow. And moon cups. And moon cups. And moon cups. I have a 12 year old daughter and it blows my mind how far things have come since I was 12 when I got my period and it was like, oh you've got the curse. The curse? It still makes me laugh now. I'm like what? This is, I mean and you can understand why it came up like that. You know I'll caveat this and this is the journalist in me that there are many many many women who have periods and don't have pain who don't bleed heavily who are able to crack on in it just be an inconvenience

but are still putting up with the I'll hide the tampon thing or I'll be extra quick in the loo because I don't want them to think one I'm having a poo or I'm changing a tampon. My first period. Yeah. So I'll take you to Croydon. Croydon. And I was shopping in the shopping mall. I think it was called the Whitgiff.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I know it. And I was in Alders. Old department store. I'm in my age. I'm 50 now and I was 15 when I was shopping with my mom and I

Felt rotten. I felt really tired Didn't know why and then I had these really bad cramps and I felt really ill and felt really faint And I said to my mom I need to go to the toilet. Now my mom is an Indian mom. And I was taught from day dot, you never sit on a public toilet. Right, okay. Ever. I'm a squatter, a hoverer,

I do not sit on a public toilet. You certainly don't poo in a public toilet. Well, I needed to poo. And I was, it felt like those cramps, you know, when you need to poo and you're just like, I've got to go yep I was mortified anyway we went into the public toilet and in orders went to the toilets and orders and it was horrific I had diarrhea and I felt filthy and then there was blood and I was cramped over I was sweating cramped over felt really faint and my mum was in her I'm shopping mode, and I just,

I did all this and I, I said I think I've started my period. I think, I can't remember, I think she gave me one of her period pads, which was huge, like a nappy, and I am, I mean I'm five foot four at a push, I was tiny. I was like this skinny whippet of a thing Skinny legs with this big old pad between my legs Feeling so bad Feeling so bad and I remember having to go home and then she just said I'll get you can have some period pads And I thought these are huge didn't really know much about it wasn't ever gonna use Tampons because it would take your virginity away as we were told. Oh my god, still in the 90s? Again, batshit crazy to think that was... Ridiculous, as if even you know if your hymen is intact or not.

And I felt awful and I had diarrhea and I had massive crampings. I fainted. I fainted on the loo and kind of come back and I was crying and didn't know what to do because of the pain. I wasn't scared of having my period. I was one of the last ones in my school and my class to have my period. I was desperate for it in so many ways. You know, so twisted, desperate to bleed once a month. And then I had that period, it lasted 10 days and pretty soon within about four months I was regular. But my regular was 10 days of bleeding and day 10 was the only spotting day. The rest was bleeding and flooding. And flooding, term I didn't know. And then I'd wait another 10, 12 days and start all over again.

Wow. So flooding actually, and that is the term we don't know. And I'm assuming that is when you are just, you're just gushing. And it doesn't gush constantly, it gushes in waves. So I would end up having to, I'd always sleep on a towel. I'd have a super plus, this is when I was older, I didn't have a tampon then, I'd have a big period. And you know, you're trying to adjust yourself in the bed because you know your sheets are gonna get wet.

So you'd sleep on a towel. But as I was older, I would have a super plus tampon and I'd set an alarm for every three hours through the night to get up, change the pad and you know you'd be wearing your grottiest granny but big knickers to hold everything in place and you'd lie rigid you couldn't lie on your side because well I couldn't and I'd have to lie on my back or my front and make sure the pad was moved up or wear two pads and wear one across the back and everything like that and change.

Yes. It's joyous isn't it sexy? This is just your life. Yep. From 15 through to quite recently. Yeah so passing out would be regular over the first 48 hours. That immense tiredness which I think a lot of women get you know 24 hours before you start your period. The reason this really interests me is because I don't get periods anymore so I went through quite an early menopause and what I realized I've had, I had my whole life, which really the way that my menstrual cycle dominated my life was that I realized I had PMDD. So for two weeks before, so the period itself was actually, the period was a relief. The two weeks before, with the progesterone, I was suicidal, I was, my obsessive-compulsive

disorder was, it was very high. And you know, to be honest, Naga, since I got that under control, I now no longer have periods. It's been a liberation, You know, people talk about menopause with this kind of great fear. You know, it's another way, it's another way that, you know, we are told to fear getting periods, the curse, and then we're told to fear when they stop because we're suddenly invisible or whatever. I have felt, if anything, that my life has taken on a new dimension since I was freed from the

tyranny of the menstrual cycle but it took a while to get it all right but anyway that's my experience. Well it's something I talk about. Yeah. Obviously Vicki Patterson has spoken very been very vocal about her experience with PMD and raised awareness of it but it's another example of where women with PMD even PMS, would have been dismissed as hysterical. Yeah, absolutely. Overdramatic, drama queen, not coping.

It's just your hormones. Yeah, it's just, which is such a ridiculous thing in itself. Hormones are really important. Well, hormones are the most powerful chemicals known to humankind, so why do we dismiss the mostly female ones? But also, you interviewed so many women for this book and, you know, what strikes me is, as you said, there's so much terminology that we just

weren't aware of, you know, how little we know about our bodies. So to me, PMS, I knew about PMS but I thought PMS was cramps, you know, and I was like, I don't get cramps. So I don't have any of that, you know, my whole life was, you know, like I realize I'm not blaming addiction or alcoholism on PMDD. And I'm not and I think I always had a propensity towards mental illness. But I do know that a certain time of the month, you know, it was a lot easier to get handled depending on where my hormones were. But you were how old when you finally got a diagnosis? 47. Wow.

And to be honest, yes, I've got a diagnosis. But so what? So the diagnosis, I've written down the pronunciation of this. I mean they can't even give us conditions that are easy to fucking pronounce. There are two ways. You've got a 50% chance of getting it right. Adenomiosis. I haven't heard it pronounced like that.

But I know what you're saying. How do you say it? Adenomyosis. Myosis. Or aden say it? Adenomyosis. Myosis. Or adenomyosis. Adenomyosis. Myosis. My, not me-osis. No.

Terrible. But then you've got endometriosis. That's where I've... Yes. So talk me through, broadly speaking, what adenomyosis is. Very well pronounced. Thanks, thanks. I learned from the fact. It is, when you have a period, what has happened

is the lining of your womb is being shedded, because you've not become pregnant and an egg hasn't embedded itself in the lining of the womb, which has been preparing for it, right? So when you don't become pregnant, the lining of the womb is shedded and hence you have a period.

The lining of the womb, the uterine wall, so you have all this endometrium that is the build-up. The endometrium for me grows outside my uterine walls. Now when, and I've given you the hint already about what happens with the endometrium, it goes with your menstrual cycle. So at various points during your menstrual cycle, your endometrium lining builds. Imagine if those pieces of endometrium are outside, when they build, they grow and they stretch and they flourish and they react. If they're embedded, say, outside the uterine wall,

and this is the thing, endometriosis and adenomyosis, you can have it and not be in any pain. But if it's in a certain part of your body, there's still a lot of research about this, but it could be you could have a tiny piece at a certain part of your body and it would cause you immense pain. You could be riddled with it and have no pain. When it grows outside the uterine wall, it is the reason it was discovered was I was having an ultrasound and what it showed was my muscles had like stripes in them and what those stripes were were where the muscle had been torn when the endometrium had expanded so the stripes

were the tears. So damage to your body by your own body. Yeah and the pain. So that's what it is. Now there's no cure for endometriosis or adenomyosis, and they're known as the evil twins of each other, because one's inside and one's outside, although it's present. And lots of people who have endo have adeno and vice versa. But what happens is you suppress the hormones. You suppress the cycle to stop them flaring and doing what they naturally do. And that is supposed to quell the symptoms. So anyway, so it was diagnosed because I'd been bleeding for several weeks.

Wow. And I'd been to the GP and I'd had a cyst on my ovary before which I was told that should not cause you pain. And I was like, well, what's causing me pain? Well, it's not that. And your sister will go down and keep an eye on you. I said, but why am I in pain? And the adeno is connected to heavy bleeding and pain

and when things contract all around. So it's growing into my hips, my lower back, my thighs, you know, that, you didn't have cramping, I'm so pleased for you. But the cramping in my thighs, it would feel like there were needles running around in my thighs and in my lower back and you'd be cramping and stuff. So what it does is the hormone treatment suppresses that and yet it doesn't get rid of it.

So it still exists. So when I was diagnosed, I was like, well, what do you do with this? And I was given an option of an ablation, which is when they burn the inner lining of your uterus to get rid of any excess endometrium. But mine was smooth, so I had no issues there. So that wasn't an option? Well, it was an option. Yeah.

Because they said it might make it better. But we don't know. We don't know. Because we've not done enough research for it. And even though there's no evidence of it, it might make you better because it might mean your periods aren't so heavy when you have periods. I'm like, OK.

But that sounds like quite a heavy undertaking. It's a simple procedure, and it can cause discomfort. Obviously, you're under anesthetic when it happens, and you recover apparently quite quickly. People with adenomyosis and endometriosis probably will have had quite a lot of extremely painful experiences of for example smear tests, coil fittings as you did. So maybe not that keen to then yeah but once you've been through so much pain you'll do anything but the other option is given to you is

hysterectomy which is quite quite big remember where I told you the adenos groin yeah it's not in my uterus not just in my uterus. It's not just in my uterus. It's in my hips and my eyes. So if I were to have a hysterectomy, the only way to stop the hormones would be to remove my ovaries. Well, then I'd go into early menopause. I didn't want to do that. I also didn't want to have an eight-week recovery for something that might help. And when I tried to push what is the guarantee, there's no guarantee, like a 15-30% chance it might help. Why on earth would I do that? I like you, assuming I love my job, I love my life. Why do I

don't want that recovery time and I don't want to excise a piece of my body on the off chance, it might help. Why is excision an answer? Oh she's having problems let's cut it out. A man's got erectile dysfunction should we cut out something at them? It's mad. So I could have but no so I wasn't I wasn't because there was no guarantee. I'd been sterilized before and I know what it's like to recover from surgery in in region, in the pelvic region. It is really painful. So yeah, those are the options. And then hormone control. So at this moment in time, I take the mini pill, which calms down the hormones.

I don't have periods, so I don't have that cycle of when they explode and you know, but they're all still there. All the endometrium is still there. And since then I've begun an HRT as well. I still have pain. It's not like it stops everything, just because I'm having periods. There's still pain. If you're loving these chats, why not make it official? Hit follow so you never miss an episode. And if you've got a second, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Click the survey link in the show description and tell us what'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am Peter Hitchens.

And this is The Last Violet Hitchens asking all the big questions. This week, are we heading for a zombie apocalypse? Probably. And what is the best use for other cream? And that is a question to which only Sarah has the answer. Do please join us wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. If you like this episode, we think you'll love this.

Hi I'm Marjorie Hernandez and I'm one of the hosts of The Trial of Diddy, a weekly true crime podcast where we dig through every element of this incredible case. This week, the last before the trial starts, we talk to Diddy's childhood friend and former record producer Tim Patterson. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Tell me through your decision to speak publicly about it because also as a BBC journalist, there's all sorts of, you know, like you, you, you've got to go on BBC breakfast, you want to ask people tough questions. And again, there's that thing of like, should I be talking about my, but these are important things.

Absolutely. I mean, you and I are very different journalists in terms of where we've worked and what we do. So I'm a news journalist. I know you obviously do cover news and you're columnist, your opinion is what people love you for and your take on things. We don't have opinions. You've got to keep those. We don't have opinions.

And rightly so, rightly so. For what you do in news, I think absolutely for what we do. When it comes to talking about this, I'm not talking about anything that's controversial. No. I'm not talking about anything that's not happening. You didn't know, the world didn't know, you know I've been a journalist since I was 21, 20, that I had this. I still ask the tough questions, I still got up at stupid o'clock,'clock all my life in various jobs and was still striving to be the best I could be at my job and diligent, la-di-da-di-da.

That will never change. I was on Five Live and it was Catelyn Moran who'd written a piece about the coil. I was saying I'd read this piece and was ranting about my own coil fitting and smear tests that had been so painful that they cause bleeding so therefore it's inconclusive. How frustrating is it that you're going for a smear test and then you're told it was inconclusive come back again and you know damn well why it's happening. It's quite scary. It's scary, really scary because they're testing for cervical cancer. And you're told it's inconclusive, you're not told you haven't

got cancer, you're told it's inconclusive, come back and do it again, and it's painful again. And so I was having that because there was blood in the samples. Because the speculum they were using was too big. So I was being damaged every time I had a smear test. So when I had the coil, and that was excruciating, and I was telling them about my coil fitting on my Five Life Morning meeting, and they were all silent. And I was like, I've gone too far. I've gone too far. And when I get going I was really ranting and

telling the story. Then my editor at the time just said, you've got to tell this story. How do you feel about it? I went, no, absolutely not. We are not the story. The issues of the story, we're facilitators. And she said, you're not, and I said, I'm not gonna sit there going, woe is me. She said, you're not doing that. You're I'm not going to sit there going, where is me? She said, you're not doing that. You're highlighting the fact that women not being, why weren't you offered anesthetic? And then I, because I was recalling when you could have anesthetic and what I was offered and told.

And it was the injustice of that. And the ridiculousness that women are expected to perceive this pain. So when I did that and had the reaction that was so positive and also other women saying thank goodness someone's spoken about this because... It was, I remember it being like, hallelujah, you know, not hallelujah, now I've had this terrible experience with the coil, but you know, this shit is fucking important because it lives in the dark and we are all having to put up this extra emotional, physical energy every day. Like, before we've even got started, there are so many layers we have to put on to hide this shit.

So many masks. And it's like, and I want to talk to you about the gas lighting that you do of yourself because I think that's really important because there can be times where you think am I going mad am I am I you know and I think for people listening or watching at home I'm just there's going to be loads of women who have had these experiences and won't feel able to talk about them or to push for answers. You know, the thing is, the reason they don't feel able to talk about them is because we're not taught to talk about them.

And we're told when we do, we're moaning. We're not reporting because we're not educated well enough about how to talk about these things and how to recognize when something is not normal, even if it's common, it's not normal, we don't have the language. And then so you or I could go to visit a medical, a medic, an expert and you and I will push pretty hard. We're not fearful wallflowers are we? We're lucky in that respect actually. We're very lucky. We're articulate, we're educated, we're confident, we're feisty. We won't take any bullshit. Exactly, no not anymore. Yeah. But once upon a time as an educated, feisty, I think we won't. We won't take any bullshit. Exactly. No, not anymore. Yeah. But once upon a time, as an educated, feisty, I think that's, I don't know, the word feisty

always thinks it only applies to women, but you know, assertive woman, I was dismissed so many times. And if I'm being dismissed, what about those women for whom English is a second language, for whom haven is a second and used to dress better, smartly to go to see her GP. So she was taken more seriously. All of it's about making them like you so that they believe you. Because you know as a woman, automatically, you are not going to be believed as easily

as a man is going to be believed in a GP surgery. You know that. Now, I'm not saying that happens all the time, but you know as a woman in society, that is what you expect. You are talking about these masks and these layers and the preparation we make. They're things we don't even know we're doing. We're stealing ourselves to not be believed. So when I spoke about adenomyosis and when I spoke about the coil, I knew, and not so much about adenomyosis, that was a massive shock to me, how many people have it and have been just told your periods are normal because it is all connected and there've been lots of

People talking about endometriosis as well as as should be it's not oh Look how hard I work and look what I've been through because it's irrelevant My experience is irrelevant. What's relevant is the fact that I'm a woman who hasn't been listened to. That's what's relevant and it keeps happening and for other women to go, oh this is what we live with. And this book was about arming people to be able to speak up. Because this isn't stuff you're born with. Or it's not stuff, it's isn't stuff you're born with. It's certainly not stuff you're taught.

No. We don't learn it at school, or we didn't, you know. Oh, I still speak to young girls who are still being told it's a teaspoon or two, a period is a teaspoon or two. I've always said this, if men got periods, there'd be like a show on the BBC presented by Jeremy Clarkson, him and his mates tested out the latest in period technology and whanged on about it all the time. It would be all we were allowed to talk about. Do you know what I mean? You can't obviously say anything to that.

I'll tell you what I can say. I don't blame men for not having periods. But I do blame society for diminishing us over and over and over again. I can't tell you the relief I felt when, and I always mark it because I never want to get it wrong. In 2024, the Women Inequalities Committee reports into women's reproductive health conditions that medical misogyny exists. And it was the first time that it had been admitted. So that was last year? Yeah. I mean we know there is such a huge... I mean this is what the book is about. The gender pain gap, the gender health care gap, call it what you will. There will be people listening or watching who might be going through whatever the flavour of your reproductive problem or issue. There are different ways this can land for people.

So there may be many different ways that women at home are experiencing this. Your book, it's probably nothing, is all about arming people with the facts. So what I want to know is having spoken to all these people, having done all the research for this book, what are your sort of top tips for people listening and how to kind of take back control? Know what's wrong with you. I don't mean a diagnosis but know what isn't right. So you knew, I'll use you as an example, you knew that your mood and your mental health and your sense of well-being would shoot up at different times and your propensity for addiction or to feel out of control at certain

times this would be happening, but I bet you never once kept a diary. No. And unfortunately, because of the narrative and because of how I imagine you were perceived, treated by your friends who thought maybe, oh, Brian is going through one of her stages. Difficult.

Difficult, whatever. You take on that narrative and you're not thinking, hold on, my life is being negatively impacted. When you know your life is being negatively impacted by something, write it down, keep a diary. That way you know what is wrong and what is not working with your body or with your mental health. Because this isn't just reproductive heart attacks

it goes into in childbirth, et cetera. So that when you go and speak to a medic, a doctor, you're not going in saying I just don't feel right at certain times of the month, I'm not really sure and I'm getting really teary or I'm really stressed or I'm really anxious or I get really bad cramps because you're not able to provide evidence. And unfortunately, that is the way of the world. We need to be responsible for that. So when you go in, and again, it is a partnership. So with your, the specialist, because they actually do want to help you.

They love puzzles, you know, they love figuring out stuff and coming to conclusions. Of course, it's satisfying for anyone, but they can't if it's all so vague. So go in armed with as much information that you can give them as possible and also don't be afraid of doing your own research. This book is not going to give you any medical advice. It's not about that but it's going to give you people's experiences and you will relate to them. I promise you and it's not just for women to read It's for people who love women You don't have to have a problem to read it in that sense

I don't know that sounds like a cell but it's not because if we're not advocating for the women in our lives Who are unable or too unwell to advocate for themselves? We are losing out on carers, brilliant women in the workplace, brilliant mothers, daughters, partners, the glass ceiling. Why do you think there aren't enough women at the top of business? Because they've got too much shit to deal with that's being ignored. It will empower you. And you know, I've had so many people say, oh I couldn't read it in one sitting. It was a lot Well, it's kind of don't

Pick pick it and learn. What was it like writing it? Very emotional very Fury inducing. I'm I mean my my baseline is pretty antsy anyway pretty antsy anyway. Don't take much to get me into an argument. I love a good row. But oh I was pure fury. Just having to listen and I'm assuming it wasn't that hard to find people willing to talk to you. No. That's scary isn't it? When you read some of the experiences of women and men in here, because I've spoken to men who've relayed the experiences of the women they love in their lives, who, when you hear

them and they've spoken with such dignity, such quiet dignity, and the number of people have gone, oh yeah, I suppose that was really bad. Because they normalize it. We're taught to normalise it. Yeah. And normalise being spoken to badly. Normalise, you know, I had cystitis and have had thrush and been accused of having too much sex or not being hygienic enough. What have been your worst experiences of the healthcare settings in terms of trying to get help.

So you do know that both my dad is still a nurse and my mum was a nurse. So I have a great respect and understanding of people who work in the healthcare system. So I really want to make that clear. This is not bashing anyone. It's the system. It's not the people working in the system. It is the system. I find the gatekeeping shocking. Gatekeeping of medicines or contraceptives or pain relief. Yes. I find that astonishing and the rules that seem to say that women can only have pain relief particularly only if it's really painful and not the assumption that having your cervix opened with tweezers and alcohol rubbed on it is not gonna freaking hurt. Tell us about the time that when you were so unwell and you were in so much

pain that your other half had to literally carry you to bed and call an ambulance. Can you talk us through that and how you were sort of just dismissed? It was a flare-up of adenomyosis and honestly came out of nowhere. I'd been to the theatre with a friend and by the time we picked up the car from my local station and she dropped me off I couldn't speak. I was absolutely fine when I got the train and then it all started dizziness, pain and she was like, are you okay? I said, don't feel great. Having a flare-up of. It might be the, I don't know. And by the time I got out of the car,

I wouldn't even let her drive me to the door, I just wanted to get out of that car. Got out the door and I was bent over double and I just said to my partner, can't walk, I mean so much, I can't walk. And I was literally helped half carried up the stairs because I couldn't actually stand up, couldn't take my clothes off,

could not take my knickers off, let alone socks. Kind of got into bed and then couldn't get into a position so I was on my back. I was in so much pain I couldn't turn myself over. He was having to turn you. He was having to turn me. And you couldn't find a position that worked. I could not find a position. And I remember when I used to have period pain when I was younger, I'd lie on the floor

because it was so uncomfortable so it would take away oh my god that's so relatable yeah where you replace one discomfort with a different one yeah I get that yeah he couldn't take me to the hospital because he'd been out that evening right okay he couldn't drive he was not gonna drive in that you know in a state but it was it would have been illegal that's absolutely fine the Saturday night and he was like you need to call numbers I know I know it we'll go. I've never seen you like this. And he's, you know, been with this man for 25 years. He's seen me. Towel, you know, under when I'm having a period, flooding, all that. He's seen that. He's never seen this.

And I was screaming and the sweat was just dripping. I said fine, you can call an ambulance. But, because I kept fainting in the bed and like just from exhaustion and pain and then kind of coming back and you go you just fell asleep and I said I didn't fall asleep you know I was fainting and I said you have to promise me you will not let them perform a hysterectomy because that was my biggest fear that they'd excise rather than cure or investigate further. When he called the ambulance and I was screaming, I could not speak to them. And I will always speak up for myself. Well, I hate being spoken for.

And he said, you can hear her, gave all the details, where's the pain, what's the level of pain? She can't speak. Level of pain. She can't speak. Fucking hell. Is it serious, I think was one of the questions. Do you think it's serious?

Can she get herself to the hospital? No, that's why we're calling you. Yeah. She can't turn herself over in the bed. Anyway, okay, we'll call you back. I think I got probably at most an hour's sleep throughout that night in and out of the pain. At 6.30, 6.30, 6.15, we got a phone call back from the paramedic and I was, it was better. I was still painful but I wasn't in the sweats and I wasn't screaming.

It was just that horrible dull ache and I just felt so weak, which makes me so angry feeling weak as well. And he said, I said I have adenomyosis. I was recently diagnosed. I think this was a flare up. I don't know what's happened. I've never had anything like this. And I was very scared this was not going to stop. And I didn't know what to do. And I couldn't speak. Tell myself over. Okay. Yeah. Next time, just try taking a couple of paracetamol. All I could say to that, I was so angry, was, right, thanks. Take two paracetamol.

Anyone who's ever had period pain, like me, it doesn't even have to be on the scale I had it. 2 Paracetamol does touch the sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Already, you know what painkillers work and what don't. The thing I want to say is that your book really gives me hope because... It's supposed to be hopeful. It is angry, but it is supposed to be hopeful.

You have to get angry, don't you? You have to make the point. And I think that it's just fucking fantastic that you've done this. This is a really important piece of journalism. It really is. And I'm really grateful to you for doing it. Just to kind of end on a sort of hopeful note, do you see things changing? I've spoken to many experts in this book, people who are doing research, people who are speaking up, who are in the field and recognize what's going on.

I have spoken to medics who know this is coming out and want it, want it out there to show this happens because they want it to change. And they know it's happening and are trying to change, but their small voices at the moment, this book will help amplify those voices. And they know, I promise you, the majority of them know, recognize it, are looking at themselves, are looking at their industry and trying to make it better. But until you, it's there in your face, it's slapped you in the face, and you can't ignore it. And I do think we're at the point where you can't ignore this anymore.

I'm really hopeful, really hopeful that it's changing. And I think because you will be armed and be able to speak up for yourself, you'll be able to call out the bullshit. In the same way we've learned so much about racism and sexism and misogyny, we can call it out much more. It's still hard, but we can do it. We'll be able to do it with this and say, check yourself.

I also get the sense, Nagga, that you won't go quietly until this shit is sorted out. I feel like this is not the last we will hear of you on the subjects. You've just covered your face. I genuinely don't think I could write another book. Really? I don't.

Never thought I'd be an author. This took literally blood, sweat and tears. And not that I'm afraid of that. I do actually, I've got to talk to the publisher. I do have an idea. Oh I love it. It will carry on with this voice but something's a bit different. My last question which was going to be... When you're coming over for dinner for chili? When am I? Yeah, what day? Have you got your diary on you? Always. I'm so glad you're comfy.

That is a really important thing because I feel like I hate the level of discomfort that women are expected to just exist in. So I tell you what, Naga, it gives me so much joy that you have been comfortable during this podcast.

Physically, yes. Physically, mentally? No, no journalist likes being the one being asked the questions. Well, as I said, I think this is a really brilliant act, a public piece of journalism. It means a lot coming from another journalist, by the way, because it is a piece of journalism. This is the thing, and often, so often again, and this is the thing, when women talk about their personal experiences to try and shine a light on it, it's sort of dismissed as confessional journalism. And actually, this is activism, this is important. And so while

I am not glad that you've had the experiences you have had. I'm really glad that you made the decision that day to talk about your experience of having the coil fitted on Five Life because it has sparked something really powerful. Very forward-looking of my Five Life team. I'm really impressed by you. I'm really impressed by this book. It's probably nothing. It's out on May the 8th. Thanks, Bryony. A huge thank you to Naga for taking her painful experiences and turning them into a positive to help other women. I hope today's chat made you feel a little more seen and a little

more powerful when it comes to your health. You deserve to be heard. Don't forget to follow or subscribe and I'll see you next time. You'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am Peter Hitchens. And this is Elast Violet Hitchens asking all the big questions. This week, are we heading for a zombie apocalypse? And what is the best use of other cream? And that is a question to which only Sarah has asked. Do please join us wherever you get to your podcasts. Thank you. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this.

Hi I'm Marjorie Hernandez and I'm one of the hosts of The Trial of Diddy, a weekly true crime podcast where we dig through every element of this incredible case. This week, the last before the trial starts, we talk to Diddy's childhood friend and former record producer, Tim Patterson. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts.