The Life Of Bryony - Podcasting, Romance, and Raw Honesty: A Conversation with Creators Who Redefined the Rules

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

I’m joined by actual podcasting royalty: James and Jamie, the genius minds behind My Dad Wrote A Porno. We talk about their wild creative journey - from discovering Jamie’s dad’s erotic novel (yes, really) to amassing over half a billion downloads and selling out the Royal Albert Hall. Now, they’ve turned another jaw-dropping true story - a woman getting stuck in a window after a toilet mishap on a first date - into a rom-com musical. We dive deep into how they turned viral embarrassment into theatrical gold, what it’s like to collaborate creatively for 20 years, and why being “authentic” matters more than ever in this era of social media polish. We also chat love, dealbreakers, the madness of modern dating, and why musicals (and laughter) might just be the best form of therapy. This one is pure joy. WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU Got a question or a story to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512 - just start your message with LOB Use the WhatsApp shortcut:  Prefer email? Drop us a line at  If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it—it really helps!Bryony xx CREDITS Presenter: Bryony Gordon Guest: Megan Jayne Crabbe Producer: Henry Williams Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley Content Editor: Joseph Palmer Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of The Life of Briny is sponsored by Asda, celebrating 60 years of great family value. That's Asda Price. Welcome to The Life of Briny, the show where we talk about the chaos of life and the strength it takes to keep going through it. Now you may be able to tell that this intro isn't in the usual Plus Studio and my voice isn't coming to you from the professional microphones as usual. That's because I am currently ill with COVID in my study forward slash spare room. What on earth is going on? Anyway, today I've got not one,

but two podcast legends on the sofa. Jamie Morton and James Cooper. They make up two thirds of My Dad Wrote a Porno, the cult comedy podcasts that made reading terrible erotic fiction a global phenomenon. Jamie and James came in for a chat about how the podcast began, what it's like to be creative songmates and their brand new musical Love Stuck, inspired by a first date, a toilet mishap and well,

a poo stuck in a window. But as you'll hear, it's not just about the laughs. We got into dating, shame, self-worth, why Disney might have a lot to answer for, it does, and how finding love in the messiest moments might be the most real kind of love there is. So settle in, grab a cuppa, let's go. ["The Most Beautiful Love in the World"]

James and Jamie. Welcome to the life of Brian E. I'm feeling quite nervous because you are podcast royalty. We're judging everything that's going on. This is already far more professional than we ever know. There's branding, there's mic covers. Was it like how many downloads? You got 430 million downloads. Over half a billion now. Half a billion downloads? For my dad wrote a porno.

They say sex sells, if only we would have charged for it, we'd be absolutely minted by now. A free product, so great. But it was like you were the vanguard. That's a word I haven't heard. It was the early days of yeah, serial would come out at the time and like it was starting to kind of become more of a known. I mean, it wasn't like it wasn't brand new. We were probably the first British kind of breakout hit probably in the medium. I think that's probably fair

to say. It's just it's very unlikely that anyone listening doesn't know. Sorry. Or watching or whatever it is we do nowadays. So we need to talk about it because we were just saying we never used to film it. And now podcasting is just like telly. It's scary. It's like you used to go in with like a Fisher-Price. I remember when I first started doing a podcast back in 2017, I think it was. And it was literally like a Fisher-Price tape recorder.

We used. Yeah, we begged, borrowed and stole for our first episode. The quality of that pilot is terrible because it was just like whatever, like using our phones, using old dictaphone and stuff. We just didn't know what, what kit we needed, what we should use. So it did get better over time marginally. We turned the fridge off. Well, by the time HBO would tell, yeah, yeah. Although you say that we were like, Oh, it's going to be great. And we came up with the idea for the intro of our HBO show. And so we thought we'll just, we'll be really diligent and we'll make a makeshift version on our phones. And we sent it to HBO and they were like, great. So they had no, no, no, no, but we'll be filming this properly though.

Now we just love the phone footage. It's just all of us like doing interviews on our phones. It looks so shocking. I'm a cameraman for HBO. Who knew? So let's go way back. So you used so I first met I'm thinking when I first met you two. So long ago. It was Euro Disney. We don't even call it... Disneyland Paris. You're not even Disney! Boomer. Hasn't been Euro Disney since like the 80s, but sure.

It didn't exist in the 80s. Okay, the 90s. I met you on this trip. It was like the 30th anniversary, maybe it was the 20th anniversary of Disneyland Paris and you were doing the filming you and I was with my brother. Yes. And we just spent the whole weekend drinking and going on Space Mountain. Yeah. We did no work. I remember I distinctly remember a buffet in Agrabah Cafe that was pretty rowdy. Yeah. Like lunchtime. Well there were lots of parents with their children and then there was just us.

The four of us just being like cool. Literally screaming. Open bar, great. It was a freebie. And then suddenly I saw you all over, well I didn't see you but you were all over the internet when my dad wrote a porno. So you met at Leeds university. Talk us through how my dad wrote a porno came about, came to be.

I mean, it's, it's, it's the most kind of stupidly simple thing. Like my dad who is insane, wrote a porno, literally says it in the title. No, but he was a, he was a builder from Northern Ireland and he retired and he thought that he would do something with that retirement, not just sit around. So he decided to write a novel. Um, I think mainly to get out of my mom's hair, to be honest with you, I think she was like, just go in the shed and just do something useful. And so he was like, I've written a book, which I thought was genuinely incredible for someone that I'd never even seen write a birthday card to have written a book was suddenly this huge achievement. I was so proud of him until I read it. And

like the first, the first like line is her taking her bra off in a job interview. And I was like, this seems a bit unwell. And it was, yeah, but it was also like it was the worst book ever written but the most hilarious because it's someone that he just didn't know how to write about sex or anything. And so I, when he first sent it to me, I read the first chapter and just, I mean, obviously went through a lot of emotions. And we were all out for dinner that night, kind of serendipitously and Jamie was like I've my dad's done something I need to show you we were like, okay, and he read us the first chapter It was all a bunch of uni makes so like we were having dinner

It was a big group of us a couple of other friends. He read us the first chapter We cleared the pub because we was like laughing. It's a bit like Agrabah Cafe It's a bit like Agrabah Cafe. I wish we turned that into a podcast. We'd be billionaires. And then it just sat in our heads for ages. We were like, that is so funny. And then slowly the idea developed that we should do something with it. It kind of became my party piece in a way.

People would be like, I'll read a bit of the book at like parties and stuff. Because we were a bit like, is it just funny to us because we we know dad. Yeah. Alan James know my dad and have known him for years. But then everybody else started being like, this is hysterical. And so we just thought, well, let's just record it. It was honestly, it started out just to save me having to keep reading it to people. I was like, I'll just record it. Then you can listen to it in your own time. Um, and it just became this kind of massive thing. And it just, I think cause because of the time we did it, there were fewer podcasts out there. We had a strong title, good idea.

It just took off straight away, like in a way that we didn't PR, we didn't market it in any way. We just put it out. That was the crazy thing. It just, it was the most organic thing that just kind of, from like the first episode. Yeah, total word of mouth thing.

And by about three episodes in, we were like, oh, maybe we've got something here. And yeah, it just kind of. And it just kept growing. It was really weird. It just never, yeah. Even as when we ended it was, it was the biggest it had ever been even celebrities that got involved. Yeah. Crazy. Emma Thompson, James tried to steal her Oscars. We went to her house for dinner. Lin-Manuel Miranda, Dan Levy. When you, when you, when I, I saw that Lin-Manuel Miranda follows you. Yeah. I just nearly died. Me too. I was like, what the hell? Um, I think he's, I think he's just like, I was watching this morning, the Hamel 10. Oh yes. It was, oh, the Tonys. I've not seen

the Tonys. Yeah. And, um, I was just like, oh my God, I just think he's the bestel 10. Oh yes it was the Tonys. Yeah and I was just like oh my god I just think he's the best thing ever. He's the nicest person as well. What really? Yeah. Did he DM you? Does he like your posts or anything? Is he on your private friends list? Oh yeah the green. No comment. He's so nice. He's been so well, he kind of, we were joking about making a Belinda Blinked musical. And then it got really kind of involved and we were just like, this actually could be a really good idea. We should do this. It's not something that we should look at in the future, but, but no, yeah, he's amazing. I think like what was weird about what I've read porn in terms of all of these celebrities was it was like, you know, now know about my dad who doesn't know anything about culture. Like

he, when I told him that Elijah wood was coming on, he was like, Oh right. Okay. Who, who from the Lord of the Rings? He was like, Oh, of course I loved him as bill bow baggins. I was like, no, he's Frodo. Like what is wrong with you? Like he's literally legit. But, um, yes, that was the weirdest thing. That was the beauty of it. Do you know what I mean? It's sort of the way it's, you know, it takes it, it sort of doesn't, doesn't take, you know, it doesn't take itself too seriously and it sort of sends itself up and, and, and the fact that it, it couldn't, you know, in a way, it was of its time. And actually it is beautiful, beautiful, like the, you know.

We haven't had that before, beautiful. It's beautiful. No, but it, you know, like it's, in a way, I think things have these kind of magic moments. It's a bit like reality television, you know, when something, you know, the first two seasons are like perfect and then people start to know what it's about and then it becomes to knowing. And in many ways with podcasts, you know what I mean?

Like yours existed at this beautiful sort of organic moment where it wasn't about we need to, it wasn't about we need to do social clips. We need to visualize it. We need to just about the show and telling this story. And also because nothing had been done beyond that. At that point, you know, we were the first people to do big live shows at the Royal Albert Hall, like HBO comedy specials, something. Yeah, it was nuts. But like that wasn't something that was ever even available to begin with. So it wasn't an expectation. Do you know what I mean? It was, it was, we kind of, it all just happened around. We just kind of did it.

And it was real like lightning in a bottle. Like you say, it was like very Kipnis, what's that word? Kismet. Kismet, not Kipnis, Christmas. It's very Christmas. Christmas too. Kismet. You know, the three of us kind of deciding to do it together, having this amazing book and like we were just really throughout, we were just very keen to kind of keep the authenticity of it, especially with the podcast. We still recorded it until the end. We were recording

it around the kitchen table. We were keeping it very, I edited every episode. We were very in control of it. Like it was our baby and we were really proud of it. So we never talked about the success of the show on the show. Yeah. Cause it's so egg when people do that and they like read out like letters from fans say this part, that's for you to enjoy. You don't need to like, do you do that? Sorry. Yeah, we do. Yeah. I start every episode with messages from people telling me how amazing I am. And it really just goes from there. But a lot of pods are like that now. You know, people listen to for a reason and it's not really. We need to just get back to reading porn. What happened to reading porn?

I mean, I would, if they would let me, I would just, actually, I would just watch porn and record it. That's the show. Watch porn and comment on it. That's actually not a bad show. Listen, I want to go back to, so you were discussing with Lin-Manuel Miranda, as you do, about turning My Dad Wrote a Porno into a musical, as you do. So it seems to me that this is the perfect way to seek into what you two are doing now, which is you have written a musical. Well, James has written it. I'm directing it. So I'm going to let James kind of give you

the hard sell. Yes. But also it's like only the creators of My Dad Wrote a Porno could have come up with a musical like this. Well that was sort of my first thought as well. Yeah so it's inspired by a viral news story from a few years ago. Even that, just like a musical inspired by a viral news story. Talk us through that viral news story because everyone remembers it. I think so right? Like most people remember it. Oh yeah we've already already just this morning. We've already discussed it three or four times. Oh, great.

OK, so a woman went on a first date and it was going really well. So she went back to the guy's house for another drink, kind of finish off the evening and suddenly needed the toilet. And she needed to do a poo and she did her thing and the toilet wouldn't flush. So she was like, oh, what do I do? So obviously it's embarrassing enough, pulling on a first date, but like leaving the poo in the toilet. So she was like, she panicked.

She was like, I'll throw it out the window. Job done. It's quite a stretch from that to that. But yes, that's what she chose to do. Well, there must have been some kind of logic in between. But anyway, yes, she threw out the window. But he had really quite a kind of crappy flat, I think. And it had like old school double glazing with like a second window. So the poo got stuck between the two windows. And then she really panicked and she was like, I'll just grab it and get it out and do something

else. But as she was retrieving it, she got stuck upside down in the window with her own poo. Right. And he took a picture. He that went viral and everyone kind of knew about this worst day ever. And I was like, that's a musical. There's a musical in there. I think because like, my first thought was like, it's a bit, you're gonna think this is stupid, but I was like, it's a bit Cinderella.

Like it was like, you know, when it strikes midnight and the dress goes to rags and like, you see her for who she really is. It was like this woman in her most like real raw and kind of unfiltered moment. That so that was the seed and then it's just built out into this rom-com about two people who are kind of trying to navigate the world of modern dating social media trying

to present who they think they should be to the world versus that who they really are underneath these chaotic messy people. I actually think you need to come because I think you'd love it because I think you'd like you represent the kind of anti social media like you do show the real side of you on the woman stuck in the window in the window. So when we do on the West End, you are in the lead role. Do you think I mean, listen, I have been known to bail out a fantastic rendition of burn in the car.

From how? Obviously from how, burn from what I, yeah, but it has to be like, I have to be, you know, have to have Philippa Sue alongside me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sing in it. Yeah, in it. Harmonies, harmonies. Yeah, and no, I don't sing. I mean, I do sing, but not not in any way that anyone else would

like to hear. So hang on. So and so it's narrated by Alison Steadman. Amazing. Yeah, we asked her and she she was up for it. So yeah, she's our narrator. Because of the Cinderella seed, we've kind of framed it like a modern fairy tale. So she kind of talks us through the story, but she has a kind of more active role, doesn't she? She's sort of her own character. Yeah, we're kind of constantly undercutting traditional storytelling techniques in a way. It's like there's fairy tales, there's classic musicals, there's rom-coms, Disney.

And what's really fun about it is that we're kind of setting up these tropes and then undercutting them with the truth of what life's actually like, which is really fun, especially doing it in this kind of context with a romcom. There's so many things to kind of pull apart and put little Easter eggs in there, but also be like, I want this to be it. I, when I was first kind of working with, with working with James, I was like, I kind of want the two leads to be like the two best friends of the leads of a movie. I want their love story. Yeah. More real love story of like the goofy friends that are just there for comic relief in a normal film. It's their story really, which I think we can all relate to a lot more.

Was more interesting. Way more interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's been really, we've done two previews. Seems to be landing. I mean, we've got to make, we've got to make it better. But like, generally, we're really happy so far with how it's going. It seems to be kind of, I heard someone shout out the other night behind me, that's me. Well, at least it's relatable. At least people are connecting with it. Yeah. So talk to me about the kind of picking apart dating social media, I suppose just

the bullshit. Artifice. Well, this is it. For me, like, you know, obviously our careers are going in one direction from porno to poo. God knows what's next. Another P word. Yes. But it wasn't the poo that was interesting for me. It was actually the fact that I love how serious he's being. Wasn't actually the poo. It's a really funny show, but like, you know, it's my job to kind of root this in some sort of truth, right? And reality in that more than just a silly frivolous show that you kind of forget about

the minute you've seen it. I wanted it to have more kind of what we both did more to say. And actually the weird thing was that windows are quite interesting in terms of framing devices. The whole show is kind of framed through a window. Seeing the set. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, it's cool, isn't it? So I worked for a long time with the with our set designer to kind of get what we wanted the kind of visual aesthetic to be and kind

of, you know, windows are ways that we kind of see other people through see ourselves reflected back to ourselves through, you know, it's a really interesting way to kind of explore perception and how we view each other's lives as fake or not, how we view ourselves. So it kind of became way more about that actually, didn't it? It was like the central event of the show is this hilarious thing that happens to her on this date, but it's really about these two people who are single in their 30s, don't really kind of know why, think they need to be different versions of themselves and they're kind of both looking for love

but ultimately kind of find self-worth and realise that they can just be who they are and that's okay and the things that they maybe thought that they needed to be or have to be quote unquote normal in society are not necessarily what they need. Come for the poo, stay for the message. Stay for the message. Yeah, I just love that. I feel really lucky that I somehow escaped having to do online dating like just in a nick of time that I when I talk about how I met my husband, it's very old fashioned. Like we met at work.

That's how people use. Oh, that's how people used to. That's how we that's that was like my version of hinge, the office. Or we'd go to the pub and you'd meet people on a night out or something. Right. Just doesn't happen anymore really. And I look at my friends who, you know, a lot of whom are going through it for this, you know, they've, they've perhaps come out of long-term relationships, divorce or whatever, and they're having to go back into the dating world. And it just sounds absolute. Part of

me is like, Oh my God, this sounds awesome. All this sex on tap. But the other part is like, no, that's the kind of like horny part of you, Brynie. And actually it sounds it sounds awful. So transactional. When I started writing the show, I was very much in the depths of that. I was like five years deep into the like the dating world. I was going on like two or three first dates a week. It was like, what? That's a job. It was a job. It cost expensive. I wasn't getting paid. It cost me a fortune. So yeah, it's just so transactional. Now you're always on to the next. What's the worst? Can I ask you?

My worst date? Your worst first date. Oh no, I haven't thought of an answer for this one. My mate told me one the other day, because I had some friends on Saturday. I'd never heard this story. He on a first date, this was like quite like sweet in a way. He like lit loads of candles, but lit so many candles that he started sweating profusely. Then was trying to, so much sweat went off. It extinguished three of the candles and then he slipped and fell into the hot wax. And I was like, that's a pretty bad one. Yeah, that is. But I think like, what is kind of mad is that people are so

kind of accustomed to them being awful now. Like online, you're kind of like gearing up for it being not what you expect, completely embarrassing and humiliating. But actually, if we just all took away all of that expectation, it would be way better, like you say. Lots of people are telling me their poo stories now as well. Like a lot more people than I realized have a poo related. Someone not as extreme as the window, but this one woman was telling me

she did take her poo out in a bag and put it in the bin in the street. Like after she left. Yeah, I've forgotten about that thing of of of like wake. Like perhaps if you'd stayed over for the first time and you're like, how do I wake up and look as beautiful as I did when I went to bed last night? Yes. You know, or like, how do I, how do I edge out of the bed really quietly so as not to wake the person up so I can like go and gargle some mouthwash or something. Exactly and look like flawless.

This is the bullshit. Like why do we do that? Like why like what and I know it's kind of societal stuff but like and it's why like things like Disney are so toxic in a way because these these films have kind of made us think that there is this weird kind of perfection that we should all be aspiring to but it's like with this story like she did a poo that's completely normal. Why did she feel she had to get rid of it? Because it's in a dating context. It's actually so fucked up when we have this awful relationship with just who we are as human beings. That's what it all comes down to, doesn't it? And I think that's really pertinent for

anyone who even if you are in a relationship, you know, like that thing of just being and so many of us as well see and it's only recently that we're unpicking this where we see another person as a way of solving our set the problem of ourselves, which is so toxic. So toxic. And like, you know, our lead, like our two leads have got very different kind of predicaments in a sense. And Lucy, the, the, the woman who gets stuck in the window, like her kind of big thing is that she can't, she's been single for so long and she feels that she can't find her perfect match. And that's made her unable to accept love in any form

from her friends and her colleagues and her parents. You know, that, that, that sense of being unlovable is calcified in her. And actually that's so awful that just being single can manifest itself in so many other ways in your life that are so bad for you. And her journey is realizing that no, I've had love all around me this whole time. I just didn't see it because I wasn't, I hadn't achieved the thing that I meant to have done

by this point in life, you know? Yeah. It's interesting. But also I remember I was just listening to you talk. I remember when I was in my 20s and early 30s and we always used to talk about deal breakers in a person and it would be like things like red trousers. I mean, I kind of get that. Or, you know, or short sleeved shirts, you know, on a first day. And all of these things, which actually fundamentally, if you like someone, they don't really matter, you know, or they shouldn't matter. And it is, it is that like, I remember,

you know, my, I only really learned the true definition of love, unconditional love. This is what my God's got much deeper than I expected. When I got sober and they talked about we talk about in, you know, in 12 step programs, they talk about love without a price tag, you know, love that is just like I take you for you. And it's like I love you because of your good bits and your really shit bits, you know what I mean? And that thing of taking someone with all their flaws as well.

And that's the most healing thing for yourself. And that's something I actually came to learn in my current relationship. So weird, I made this documentary once about people in polyamorous relationships. And the one thing that stuck out to me, they were like, we put so much expectation on one person to be everything for us,

like in every, and the moment you kind of stop doing that and be like, you can be what you are to me. And I have a support, I have friends and like different people will give you different things. Putting everything on a partner of all your expectations to satisfy everything is, is going to, is never going to satisfy you because it's unrealistic. And it's so that that, that was certainly a big thing I've learned kind of in my dating and relationship lives. And

it's made me a lot happier kind of understanding that for sure. And there is a weird thing about like, when you say that deal breakers, there is such a dichotomy between who you think you should be with and who's actually going to make you happy. And those two people can often be quite different. Oh my god, so different. And it's like, it takes a long time in your life to kind of get over yourself a bit. Like just go with who's going to make you happy. Like who cares about the stuff that you think is important or what other people are going to think of your girlfriend or your boyfriend. Like, it doesn't

matter, you know, but we still are plagued by kind of this societal pressure constantly, even at the expense of your own happiness sometimes, which is utterly mad. I think we should all be a polyamorous. Just as you said that, I was like, well, that's what we just should have different people for different needs. I'm sorry if my, this is how my husband's learning that we're opening. But in a weird way, aren't we all as humans, we all have different love in our lives. I guess that's the point. Like we are in, in, in terms of our love language, we are all polyamorous because we get different sorts of love from different people in our lives. You know, you get romantic love from somebody you get, you know, it's, it is…

That's so true. …you know, true of all of us. And it's just because this is a new kind of way to look at the world and it's got a new label on it, people think that it's kind of revolutionary. But actually, it's always been there. This is a paid advertisement from ASDA. Confession time. I've never been what you'd call a natural in the kitchen. Cooking has always felt a bit overwhelming, especially on those busy, slightly chaotic weeknights. But thanks to Joe Wicks and Asda, I've gone from what's for dinner panic to serving up something genuinely tasty in next to no time. Joe and Asda, I've gone from what's for dinner panic to serving up something genuinely tasty

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Aww, yes! Because, so how long have you... My life! How long have you been together? We met at a Halloween party 20 years ago. So Halloween, Halloween, this year will be our 20 year anniversary. He hated me. Why? He's just so smug isn't he sometimes.

I'm joking. The first time I ever met him. I was 18 years old. I was so fresh faced. I think I was more, I was, I didn't hate you. I think I was just like intimidated by you. He was so funny and like life of the party and I just felt a bit intimidated by him. I think. And I was like, Oh God, I don't like, but I don't know what it was that then clicked. Well, I didn't even know who you were. So no, cause we lived in the Statue of Liberty. I remember that we walked because we are halls were kind of on the same direction through leads went to Leeds University and as we walked home, we were getting on. Yeah. And we were getting on so well. I was

like, this is like a friendship. This is like what people talk about when you meet people at university and they're going to be like your best friend forever. There was a pool of wet road paint in the road. Right. I was like, Oh my God, we should like write our names in the pavement. Oh my God. As like a never lasting tribute to this night. And I got a flyer, a takeaway flyer and like dipped it in this and wrote his name and wrote Jamie on the pavement in Leeds. But my name didn't make

it. So on the road, I remember I started to write another J and he was like, I think our names are similar enough. I was like, Hey, I thought this was supposed to be a great friendship. Leeds. It said Jamie on the work walk into university in pain outside the Parkinson building, which is like quite a big building. Is it still there? No, we went recently and it has been cleaned, thank goodness, because it is technically vandalism, isn't it? So, but, okay, so, and that was the start of...

That was the first day we ever met. Yeah, and then we were, we worked in the student TV station at our uni together and like, we just sort of do that every day, because we've always, like, everything everything we've done we've tried to create ourselves and be like we've done everything like the marketing person at the theater came up to me and they were like um so you and james is bios they're like the same every job we've ever done is that we've worked together on so many things. It's, it's like, what is it? We need to start. I think you, you're like Ant and deck. I think of you as a, I totally think of you as a duo. That's weird. Sorry. Well, you've known us for so long as well, I guess. I know. And I feel, but you were a, you know, you come

as a, we came as a duo. You come as a, yeah, but it's really know. And I feel that you were a Jew. You know, you can come as a game as a duo. Yeah, but it's really nice. And I think when you make something or when you're creative, it's really hard to find people who share your creative kind of taste, vision, whatever. And so I think when you find those who would say without as well, like, you know, when you find these people, you want to kind of work with them again and do other stuff for them, because it's very much like you'd like share a view of the world, I guess. And my dad wrote a porno was very much that it was our sense of humor. We were like, well, maybe no one else will share it, but we just have to be true to ourselves. So I think, yeah.

And I think we balance out each other's like creative instincts and we kind of find a happy medium there. Like Jamie wants to go like serious and deep and I want to like find the fun in the mainstream and like we find a really nice compromise in the middle. Yeah, we do balance each other. So yeah, it just it just works like Jamie says like if it works and it's well actually we'll see in two weeks when we get the reviews if it works reviews who cares like it's about the work I do slightly care about the reviews. I want this to have a future. I think all you can do is make something that you're proud of and that you can stand behind because like no one's going to like everything you do. And you know,

there, I mean, we, we got a one star review in the times for my dad wrote a porno and it is framed in my downstairs Lou. It is so fucking fucking funny. Was that right at the beginning? No, this was quite, it was actually in the Christmas edition of the Sunday Times actually, 2019 and they were doing cultural roundups of the decade. Right, that's very serious isn't it? And the chief theatre critic, which is supposed to be the musical, the chief theatre critic which is goes well for musical The chief critic of the Times Clive Davis his name is You know what I can guarantee you that Clive Davis does not listen

He gave us a he gave us one story He said with my colleagues have been compiling that the the the best of the decade lists of the cultural with my colleagues who've been compiling the best of the decade list of the cultural life of the country. If I had a worst of list, the night I had to sit through my dad wrote a porno live at the Royal Albert Hall would be the top of my list. And it just goes on from there, like eviscerating us. And I love the review because, A, I believe in our show, but also wasn't wrong. What he was saying, it just wasn't to his taste. That everything that he said, there was a criticism. I was like, Oh, that's a strength to me. So like it actually is just how you perceive your work. I think reviews only hurt when they are pointing something out that you know yourself is something that

you've missed. If you can really stand by something and be like, Oh no, that was a choice. I'm aware of that. Yeah. But that was what I wanted to achieve. And that may not be what you like about it, but that is absolutely what we intended. I think reviews can't really hurt you. It's amazing to think though, that like the Royal Albert Hall and that, can I talk about, you know, let's, did you ever imagine that you couldn't, I mean, no, you couldn't have ever, when you met that night, you couldn't have been like, one day we're going to play the Royal Albert Hall and one day we're going to do a musical. Talk to me about, I want to talk about the magic of musicals because there is, because no, I think this is really important also to actually, it's going to sound a bit random, but to mental health, like I find one of the

most like freeing liberating things is I'll go on a run and I listened to Hamilton or waitress or whatever happens to be on my on my playlist that day. And I just like fucking like I go into like this whole fantasy world where I'm singing and I just feel free. And when you and when you're in those theaters watching a musical, it's like, oh, it's just it's magic life affirming. And I think, you know, from working on it, and like, I'm so proud of everyone who works on the show but like the cast particularly like seeing them go out there every night and give all of that energy is just so inspiring to me you know as the director to be like you are selling this with every ounce of your being you know it's singing it's dancing it's acting it's everything in this show even like a lot of like moving of the furniture that we've like built into the storytelling, like I've really worked them so hard. But it's, it's, it is so amazing to kind of be in a room

where people are working that hard and are so joyous with it. You know, it is quite amazing. And I really like when I was writing, I really wanted to write a show that was just like pure joy, pure, had something to say, but like was just a really fun, feel good night at the theatre. And I've written the songs with Bryn Christopher, who's a pop songwriter. So it's very much kind of got a pop sensibility to it. And he's got such an ear for melody, like the songs are so catchy. So Bryn was an artist, right? He now like writes songs for kind of everyone. And yeah, so that's been a really fun process. It's really like that. I think this is one you'll enjoy listening to on your runs.

Yeah, I wish I wish I had to be honest. I wish I'd seen it before doing this interview, but that's fine. There are four tracks on Spotify. Anywhere you get your music, Jamie. Anywhere you get your music. And I think they give a good flavor of the show in terms of what the music's like. And we will hopefully be doing a full album at the same point as well. Recording an album? Yeah, I hope so. That'll be fun. Yeah. But yeah, like, I also wanted to lean into like,

because musicals are slightly absurd, you know, people like breaking into, I think like- Well, that's the point though, isn't it? Right. But like, some of my, and I think when it gets it right, gets it really right. But what I wanted to do with this was kind of like lean into like that kind of tongue in cheek kind of absurdist tone and like have fun with it. And like, especially now, like people are so obsessed with authenticity and like I think it's harder for musicals to exist in this day and age. So you kind of have to shape them for a modern audience and, and, um, make them feel, I dunno, get the tone,

right? I suppose, because people are harder to kind of convince. I dunno, it's like, I don't like music. But there's also, I think, you know, we're in a time that it's, it's a pretty dark time that we're living through. And I think the escapism of a musical and just the joy of it and just kind of the other worldliness of it, even if it's a serious musical, Hamilton, you know, is fun and has its Well, it's a musical about the American Civil War. Yeah. It's not it's on paper.

The first one. I mean, literally on paper. It's one incoming. Lin's Lin. I say that as if I'm friends with him frantically right. No, but on paper that I just think, well, I don't want to sit through three hours of that. And yet, yeah, well, that's cause lens a genius. I mean, not he's the only person that could have pulled that off in terms of that. Finding that tone is incredible. But I think all musicals, no matter what their subject matter is, are by their very nature, joyous just because of the medium that they're

existing in. And I think more of that, I think we need that more than ever, honestly. I have a theory about people that don't like musicals. And I'm really sorry if this offends anyone listening and they don't like musicals. Or that people that when people say they don't like musicals, what they mean is they cringe when people break out into choreographed song and dance. Like it makes them feel deeply like uncomfortable. And I think that's about like it's about not having it's about it's about the place in your life that you're in at that time. Interesting. You know, like you need to let go of it.

Loosen up your ability to like, you know, and I think the let go of it loosen up your ability to like You know, and I think the time you disbelieve the times I've been like I don't really sniffy about Mass choreographed dancing and singing are the times when I'm just I'm in a dark place myself Yeah, and there's also like talk about perception. So I think a lot of people kind of think it's cool to hate on musicals It's not actually in the in the darkness of their Private life. I bet they actually secretly. Yeah There's like a weird kind of judgment around them. I am what I am and dance around Like you know what I mean like

Cuz they are very human. I think they tap into a very human raw part of who we all are, which is joy. Yeah, I think some people are just joyless. But I think people also kind of, I think people are afraid of joy or admitting that they can just that they're allowed to just have fun. Too cool for school. I think there is an element of that. Also are lots of people who do find it hard to have fun because their lives have been so difficult or they've been programmed for whatever reason to believe

they don't deserve it. Actually, actually, that's the thing. Like you don't deserve to have two hours of just relaxing and enjoying the world and having a laugh. And I and and and and that's that's really sad. Yeah. And I think that's why, you know, as creatives, it's our job to kind of make shows as relatable as possible. Cause I understand that, you know, the form is challenging in a sense, like James says,

they just like break out to song and dance. But if you can root that in some sort of world that people feel represents them and that they can feel seen by, I think that makes that bridge a little bit easier to kind of... Favorite musicals. Oh, oh gosh, I have a lot. Little Shop of Horrors is one of my favorite company.

I went to see Little Shop of Horrors. Where? When I was a child. Did you? Or was it... Oh no, oh no, I tell you what, I got it confused with Return to the Forbidden Planet. Did you ever watch that?

Oh no, I've never seen that one. That's very 80s. I think Little Swim of Horrors was on in the 80s or the 90s. Yeah, yeah it was, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Book of Mormon is a favourite. I just think like structurally that show is like

tight as a drum, it's so good. Like they get the tone perfectly. What about you? I mean, it fluctuates, you know, I'm a big Sondheim person. Yeah. So that Sunday in the Park with George is like a really important show for me. Company I love, Sweeney Todd. I actually love In the Heights, Lynn's first show.

I don't know if you know that. Yeah, Heights is great. I when I go on Strictly, which I will, which will happen. Yeah. Heights is great. Um, I, when I go to on strictly, which I will, which will happen, I just want to ask you, no, how can I make it sound like no, no, no, I had a meeting with them, but like, I don't, I didn't make it to like, I think, I think they meet with lots of people and then they kind of, you know, then they... I guess there's an alchemy of who they get at any given year. Exactly. Oh my god, it will happen.

But they were like, what, you know, do you, would you like to go on Strictly? And I'm like, yes. And when I get to music, I have a fantasy. And when I get to musical, this is my fantasy when I'm running, is that I'm so good at dancing like I first couple of weeks I'm not that good at dancing. But I kind of get into myself you know I get into it. I go exactly journey contest and I am the journey. And we get to musicals week and really sadly one of the judges is off sick. COVID maybe nothing too serious. And they bring in a guest judge and the guest judge is Lin-Manuel Miranda. Right. And I think you're such a Lin head. Such a Lin head. I love that. And then I danced either, um, burn or, um,

or from in the heights. Such a detailed dream. Breathe. It won't be long now. Won Such a detailed dream. Breathe. It won't be long now. It won't be long now, great. Oh, I love that bit where he comes in and he raps. Yeah, yeah. Who's that? Oh my word.

Yes. If my daughter was listening now, she would die. She would die. She would just be like, this is the most embarrassing moment. No, it's great. I told this to the Strictly people and they be like, this is the most embarrassing moment. I told this to the strictly people and they were like, okay. And then the meeting ended. Shockingly, she never got the call. What's your favorite musical?

I guess it sounds like Lin musicals. All in all of the Lin musicals. I mean, I love Hamilton. I'm not very I'm not like an original, you know, Hamilton's great. Well, this like an original, you know. Hamilton's great. Well, this is the other thing that happens. Things come out and they're like Hamilton was so interesting because it was revelatory in the way that it was kind of in what it was about and how it was presented. But actually structurally, it's quite a traditional musical, but he did something so clever with it. And now it's kind of become cool to hate

on it a bit. And I don't understand that. I'm like, no, it was brilliant and is brilliant still. But people think it's overrated. Maybe I don't know. So I think you're like, good for you. Don't don't don't feel bad for loving on him. I Yeah, I do love on him. And, and I it's but it's a bit like, you know, when people love to hate something, like people are like, oh, cold play. And I'm like, right. If they give a shit, like selling out fucking Wembley Stadium 18 nights in a row. Yeah. And also they're still great. Yeah. Just because they're mainstream and popular. And I love that. I love mainstream and popular. I'm not, I'm not cool. I'm firmly. I just want, I don't, I don't, but I don't want to pretend to be cool. I just, again, it's like getting rid

of the artifice. I totally would find myself stuck in a window with my own poo in my hand on a day. Like I'm surprised that didn't happen to me. You're not high school cool. You're real life cool. Yeah. So I just say you to to you are real life cool as well. You're a bit high school cool as well. I just think you're you know, you've definitely got like, I would have like I would have been in love with you at high school. I mean, I would have been in love with you too. Like I don't know. I feel like, oh, it's fine. You don't need to say that back to the troll under the bridge. If I stomp, if there are people at home who have a creative endeavor that's in their head, the two is going to take out of their head and into real life, what would your advice be?

My thing is always start where you are, like look around you, like what resources do you have to handle already? Like who are you friends with that you could work with? Like don't, it's not don't be too ambitious, but like if you start kind of practically in small, you can kind of build from there and it's more likely to happen. That's kind of, I think, how we've always done it. Yeah, there was a thing that went viral recently about a piece of advice that someone got and it was like, don't look up for inspiration, look around for a word that sounded like inspiration

that I can't think of now. But it's basically like that. Your contemporaries and the people in your life are gonna be your life partners in terms of your creative work. So don't think, Oh, one day I want to work with Lynn. Be like, who in my world now could be my Lynn? Do you know what I mean? But do you want to work with Lynn? By Lynn, we don't mean someone's mom. We mean Lynn Manwound Miranda.

Sure. But like, it's not even about that, Is it? I'm, I'm, I'm currently directing a show by James Cooper and bring Christopher. So the new, the new Lin man, well, exactly. But I think that's important to kind of, you know, you, you, you can be inspired by people, but yeah, it's important to kind of exactly what you said, like, you know, work where you are and work within your means. And also I think the biggest thing is to do stuff for the right reasons. You can't do stuff because you want to be in Manwell Miranda. Yeah. Or to win awards or to get good reviews or to, you know, you just have to do the work. And, you know, I'm a very process driven person. At the minute the show opens, I'm going on holiday. I'm out of there. Where are you going on holiday? Just just to mobs with some friends. But I'm not a little

house bus. But I think because I'm I'm I don't love the kind of when it's open. You don't love the kind of this bit the promo. I like doing it like so from here we you know, I'm going back into the rehearsal room because we were in preview, so I'll be reworking the show and fixing stuff. And that is what I love. If you don't love the process of it, it's probably not a life for you because it's all process. That's true. One other thing I'd say is just be realistic. So this, I started writing this six years ago, and I started it, it's just literally like a chamber musical, like a two-hander, because I was like,

what could I just put on myself if no one was interested? It's now grown to a cast of eight, but I was trying to think as small as possible on what I could just, also we're in such a world now where you can create your own stuff, you can pick up your phone and film. So it's like channel your talents into like realistic goals and it will sort of grow from there, I think. And also just do it. So it's like channel your talents into like realistic goals

and it will sort of grow from there, I think. And also just do it. And then HBO may use your fucking phone anyway. Well, I love it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, quite. Livid. Yeah, do it, like, cause people just don't do it.

People talk about it all the time, they're like, oh, you know, they're in the pub, they're having a drink or whatever. And they're like, oh, we should do this thing. And I'm like, great, the next day action that. At least have like a sober coffee about it and be like, you Oh, we should do this thing. And I'm like, great, the next day action that at least have like a sober coffee about it and be like, you know, we talked about that thing. Is that even something that we actually want to do? Could we do it? Is there a way to do? Do you know what I mean? I think people talk a lot about ideas, which is great, but people don't do so much doing.

Well, so it's not giving up on things. And I think this can apply to, to be honest, I think this applies to all sorts of, it doesn't have to be creative. It's something that you want to do or some, some kind of like, aim you have in life is that, you know, we do live in a world where it looks like everything is overnight. Everything is, you know, and actually it takes time and, and the process goes on and on and on. And at the first hurdle, don't fall. Or if you do fall, that's fine, but just get back up and carry on. I think patience is the biggest thing I've had to learn

like as it's gone on. And like, you know, I've been trying to get this show on so many times and like, actually now I can like look in the rear view mirror. I'm so glad it happened now when it did, because it gave us more chance to develop the show. And we've ended up in a theatre That's really perfect for it. So it's like sometimes you have to kind of fight against your urge to just

Get something to the finish line because often it's it's the the length of time it takes and the delay that That makes something really great even with porno, you know, we it was a year between that initial dinner and the first episode nearly It was was a year between that initial dinner and the first episode nearly was nearly a year Because of us talking about it thinking about the tone or it just how do we want it to feel? How do we want to present ourselves? you know that all those conversations like nothing just happens like that and also just don't be afraid to just We live in such a weird time of like everyone's so visual. And if you're not seen to be being successful, that means that you're not doing anything.

And there's so much work that goes on. It's important just to like go away for a bit, do some work and then come back. Even if it's a year, five years, 10 years later, all that time that you've been working is not wasted time. Even if the world thinks that you've just been hidden away. Cause we're just so obsessed with relevancy and I just hate that it's like you know what just just just go and do your work and let your work speak for

itself you know you don't have to constantly push yourself if you're having to constantly tell everyone how busy you are you're not making anything of value because it takes a lot of time and effort to burrow away and create. It's a very frustrating time consuming process. So put your energy into that and not selling yourself as being constantly relevant and. Active, if you know what I mean, I totally know what you mean. We talk about needing to be seen, but actually sometimes we need to not be seen. We need to be just off behind the

scenes getting on with stuff. And those times are as important as the big kind of like, and again, this speaks to anyone listening who's got a work project, you know, just a company they work for or whatever, you know, it's not just about the peak. It's also about all the sort of buildup. And I do think you're right in the sort of social media age, we constantly, it's constantly, what's next? What's next? What's next? How can I go higher? How can I get more?

How can I reach? How can I, you know, how can I push things a little bit further and actually just be? Yeah, and just do the work. It's about the work. Just get on with it. Yeah. That said, what is next? Is the hope that this goes to the West End? Well, the hope is that it has a future, whatever that looks like. So yeah, we're doing... Broadway. Broadway.

Broadway would be amazing. I don't know if it's too British for Broadway, but what we're doing now is a five week run. We'll see how it goes. I guess the producers will be looking like how it sells and the reviews and then kind of making a decision from there about kind of what happens next with it. But it's also important to be you know, for me, like, I'm making this show for now, you know, with this company with this group of creatives, like, I'm just really proud of this run. And I think, you know, it's James's job to kind of think more long term with it. I think for me, it's like, how can we make this one the best it can be? And not get too ahead of yourself to be like, well, when it goes there, or what, because

you know, it might not. And if it doesn't, I want this to be what we want it to be. I'm trying to manage my expectations about what the journey might be for it, because you just never know. Like, like, I'm so thrilled we did it. Like, I do feel like we've done it. Like, yeah, right. Exactly. And this run, I would love it to continue because like, you know, it was investment of time.

Feel like I've built a house and I want to like, yeah. And it's so hard to get anything made. Hmm. Theater, TV, film, film. What if anything, if you see anything, you should be grateful, even if it's shit or you don't like it, because it's so hard to get stuff made and it takes so long. So I think, you know, we just want to have this moment of like, we fucking did it. Yeah, we just did tech week. That was an interesting one. Yeah, we're quite tired. Do we look it?

You look, you look wonderful. And I'm so grateful for you coming in. Oh my God. Thanks for having me. It's been so nice to just hang. James Cooper, Jamie Wharton. Thank you for coming on the Life of Friarly. Thanks. Massive thank you to the My Dad Wrote a Porno guys. I could have talked to Jamie and James for hours actually. I think maybe we did. What I love most was the way we went from podcasting and poo to properly profound stuff

like the masks we wear in dating and the weird pressures to be perfect and how actually the best connections happen when we let ourselves be a bit messy, a bit real, like me right now. I've been thinking a lot since that chat about the idea of love without a price tag, the kind that says I see you, even your rubbish bits, and I still want you in my life. Whether it's romantic, platonic, or creative,

like Jamie and James have, that kind of connection is rare and precious. I'll see you next time.