The Life Of Bryony - Viewers Complained When They Saw Me Pregnant on TV: Lorraine and Her Daughter, Rosie, on the Realities of Motherhood Through the Generations

Episode Date: March 9, 2026

This week, to mark Mother’s Day, I’m joined by actual daytime telly royalty: Lorraine Kelly and her brilliant daughter, Rosie Kelly Smith. We talk about what really happens after you have a baby ��� the bits the antenatal classes and “what to expect” books never quite prepare you for. Rosie opens up about her C‑section recovery, postnatal anxiety, dark intrusive thoughts and the terrifying street incident that left her scared to even leave the house with her baby. Lorraine shares how it feels watching your child become a mum, why women are so used to looking after everyone else, and how you can let yourself be mothered too. We chat therapy, medication, and the importance of building your own village when the old ones have disappeared. If you’re pregnant, a new mum, or still healing years on, this one’s for you. BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODERosie’s new book, Mother to Mother: Navigating Motherhood Through the Generations, is available to buy now.WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUGot something to share? Message us on @lifeofbryonypod on Instagram.If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need it – it really helps! Bryony xxCREDITS:Host: Bryony GordonGuest: Lorraine Kelly & Rosie Kelly SmithProducer: Laura Elwood-CraigAssistant Producer: Tippi WillardStudio Manager: Sam ChisholmEditor: Luke ShelleyExec Producer: Jamie East A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Now, I like to think that we celebrate women and moms every day on the life of Briney. But seeing as this week is Mother's Day, I thought it was the perfect excuse to do an episode all about mothering. How you mother other people, but most importantly, how you mother yourself. And to celebrate, I have the Queen Mother of Daytime Telly. It's only Lorraine and her daughter, Rosie Kelly Smith, to talk about their own. relationship and how it's changed since Rosie gave birth. I remember when Billy was about maybe four or five months and I kept just wanting to come home all the time to be mothered, which I didn't really realize. But you needed to be looked after as well, as well as tiny. You know, you need to be.

And I'm actually happier looking after somebody else. I'm happier looking after Billy or looking after you or looking after your dad or looking after my parents. I think that's what women do. My chat with Lorraine and Rosie coming up right after this. Rosie and Lorraine, welcome to the life of Brieney. Oh, thank you. This is great. I'm a bit nervous because you are the queen. Obieve.

And then you are the princess. No, obviously, I didn't have. You are the queen of interviewing and all of that. And also, I just wanted to talk, Rosie, you have written a book called Mother to Mother, which is, Okay, when I had my baby, which was like in the Jurassic period, or feels like it now, so it was 13 years ago, right? And the only books that we had, and I don't know what it was like for you, Lorraine. Oh, there's nothing much.

But it was all very, it was like parenting done by the military. Gina Ford, how to get your baby to go to sleep, you know, and put them on a, put them on a routine, put them on a structure. and there wasn't really anything about just how to survive as a mother, a new mother. And that is what is in this book. Yeah, I hope so. Tell us about how you decided. So you have Billy who is... Yeah, she's a year and a half now, which is insane.

Because I remember when I was about 37, 8, 38 weeks pregnant, when we got the proposal through. I remember thinking, oh, well, she'll be like, you know, a fully fledged adult when this book is out. But no, she's still a baby. But yeah, it's kind of the same. I couldn't find something on the shelves like it. I had like the what to expect when you're expecting and all of the sort of guidebooks, textbooks. But there wasn't something that was reassuring,

which is what I needed. Well, there's lots of stuff that tells you, like, your baby is the size of a grape. Yeah. Which we did do. And then you also make the point that antinatal group classes are absolutely fucking useless, aren't they? It's the biggest waste of money.

Well, I say it's the biggest waste of money, but I did meet my two friends that I have. So you're basically buying friends. Totally. But I never would have met them otherwise. So that's why I think about it in my head. I think about it like that. But they don't actually teach you about, do you have any antenatal?

No, I didn't. I really didn't. Because of the hours I was working and I worked right up until two weeks before you were born. So I didn't really have a chance. All the antenatal classes were either when I was on the telly or in my bed. So I never really got a chance to do that. And I wish I had in many ways only for the pals. It's the friends, isn't it?

Yeah. You know, it's like what you say in the book about, you've got to build your own village these days. You know, that's the big difference with my mum is everybody where she lived. You know, there was so many young mothers and they all helped each other. But now, no, it's totally different. There is, okay, so one of the things I think is so fascinating about this book is it really paint the difference, generational difference in mothering. So what I thought was absolutely fascinating and I didn't know about you, Lorraine, is that your grandmother, Yes.

It wanted your mum to put you up for adoption. Yes, she did because my mum got pregnant by my dad. And then I always remember thinking, of course. They weren't married. No, they were babies. They were like 17 years old, for goodness sake. And I always thought for years and years and years, you know, my mum and dad got married in July and I was born in November.

And I thought I was just this medical child that was so premature. And yet it was fine, you know, ha ha, it was all good. But actually, yeah, she got pregnant and my grandmother just hit the roof and said that she would have to go down south and have the baby. Her sister Jacqueline lived in Cheltenham at the time.

She had the baby, which was me and be adopted. And it was my me dad that stood up to her and she was formidable, my granny Mac. She was scary. She was a really, really scary woman. And he somehow got the courage together to stand up to this woman and say, no, we're getting married.

We're getting married and we're going to have a life together. So if I wasn't for my dad, who knows, you know, it's one of those slided door moments. Yeah. Even before I was born, there was a sliding door moment. It's weird. But also, how lovely that he had that moral character. Yeah, yeah, he did. And, I mean, it was the thing, it's what you did back then.

You know, as when my dad was going around to tell his best friend, Eddie, that he was having to get married. Eddie was coming around to say that Flora was pregnant. So, you know, so they both got married around about the same time, him and his best friend. It just happened, you know. It just, that's what happened. And you got married and you made a life. Do you ever think about that? How different your life could have been?

Yeah, I do. I do actually. You can't have had an English accent. I know, I know. I could have been talking like this. I can't imagine Lorraine on telly with a posh English accent. It wouldn't be so strange. I was, funny enough, I have been thinking about it because my dad died at the start of this year.

Yeah. And, you know, you remember, you remember things. Oh, thank you. But you do remember stuff like that. And we were talking about things. Because you know how after the sadness comes the, oh, do you remember this and oh, do you remember that? And that's been, that's been lovely.

And I do remember that right from the very, very start, you know, that he was in my corner. Yeah. Which is even before I was here. So you grew up in Glasgow in the gobbles? That's right. Talk to us about the goobles. Well, it was considered to be one of the most deprived areas in Europe at one point.

And we lived in a single end. It was called, it's just like in one. one room and there was a recess for the bed, an outside toilet, one sink. How my mother managed, I don't know, and she kept it like a wee palace. You know, everything was shiny, clean and gorgeous. And I was always, you know, well fed, looked after, all of these things. You know, she took a real pride in that. And she loved being a mum.

You know, obviously it was scary when you're, you know, because the time I was born, she was 18. But to be eight, I mean, I'd think of myself at 18. I didn't know my ass from my elbow. I wouldn't be able to look after a wee baby. no way in the world, but, you know, they managed it. They both grafted really hard, and worked very, very hard. And it was all

about education, you know, that really kind of working class thing that you concentrate on school. You know, they taught me to read and write before I went to school. Wow. Yeah, they did and installed, you know, our house was full of books, introduced me to the library, which just opened the world. You know, you go into the library, especially back then, in the 60s,

and there was the world. There it was. And it was just great. So, they encouraged me to do that. And that was, that was It's a real, you know, you never lose that. It's the best gift you can give to your kid. I mean, you do that with Billy, don't me? I mean, Rosie's got, we've got so many books. She loves books. She really does.

And that's one of the joys of being a grand as well as reading to her, you know, and just, I'm reading her the books I read to you. And it's brilliant to, you know, look at them again. It's just wonderful. Yeah, this isn't just a book about becoming a new mother. I feel like I learned, it made me think a lot generationally. So, and I learned a lot about you, Lorraine. Like, I didn't know that you studied Russian at university.

I know, that was crazy. Comes out when she has a drink. Yeah. Apparently, I mean, I was not very good at it, I thought. But I went to this bar, this Russian bar in New York one time. And after about five vodka, I was giving it large. So hang on, sorry, how do you end up studying Russian at university? It was on offer.

And I was always somebody that, you know, my family had always said, be curious, push yourself, challenge yourself. And of course, it probably would have been better for me to have. on French, it would have been much more useful. But I just fancied doing Russian. It was only two of us in the whole school that did it. It was brilliant. But what an amazing opportunity to have, you know, to do that. It was a great sort of, like I say, it was a real challenge.

And there weren't that many people I could talk to in Russian, to be fair. But it was great. Really interesting. I loved it. So when you had, how old were you when you had Rosie? 34, I think. Yes, she were. She were married at 32.

Yes. Yeah. 34. So you're married to you. you're Steve. Yes, there's a lot of Steve. You've both got significant others called Steve. Yes. Hold on. So you, and when, what, the other interesting thing is hearing about you, I mean, you were, you didn't have a contract for anything. No. So the, the maternity rights that you had, Leret. Oh, zero. In the, what, the 90s. So you're born in 1992. 84. 94. Which feels to me like quite recent. It's not that.

the go and the change of attitude is extraordinary. I mean, even when I was pregnant with Rosie and visibly pregnant on TV, it was still like frowned upon in certain quarters. And Diamond had been the trailblazer. You know, she'd been pregnant sitting on the sofa with her boys. And, and then when I was pregnant with Rosie, it still was kind of, like I say, still frowned upon a little bit. So what, so it wasn't the done thing to be a pregnant woman on television? We got complaints. We got complaints from viewers, you know, and I should be sort of, you know, seen and not heard or not seen and not heard. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, And then when I went off to have you, I thought I was coming back, you know, in the September,

which I had you in the June. That would only be in a couple of months off, but that's what it's like if you're freelance. And then they just formed me up and said, well, sorry and all that, but we don't need you. We know we're going to try someone else out. And that's the world of telly. It's brutal. I mean, it's absolutely brutal. But I did not have a leg to stand on because you get no rights if you're a freelance.

How did you feel at the time? That must have been dreadful. Terrified, absolutely terrified, because Rosie was only. about, I would say, a month old. And, you know, you've got this tiny little person, this massive responsibility. And we just moved south and taking on a massive mortgage. And, you know, my husband was freelance. He's a freelance cameraman.

He's retired now, but he was. He was building up his business. But all of a sudden, you're left and it's like, oh, my God, what do I do? I was terrified. I really was. And luckily, I got asked back because one of the manufacturers of baby food wanted to do a special and they were sponsoring it on GM TV as it was and they wanted, they would only do it, they would only sponsor it and only pay

if I did it. So that was great. So I did that twice a week, the whole of November and December and then in January that's when I got my own show. And that's been me ever since. So it worked out really well. But, Brian, honestly, I was so, so scared because you're terrified anyway. You've got this wee tiny person. I wish I'd had your book, to be fair. I was like, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do. Your dad was much better with you. He gave you your first bath and he was just better all round, I think.

He had more confidence. So it was really, thank goodness goodness me, that was a hard time. Also that, I mean, it does feel shocking now to hear that. Yeah. I mean, like in... I don't think it would happen now, Brian. I really, really don't. I don't think legally it could.

Well, if you're freelance, you don't have any rights, really. And, you know, I always say I got sad. effectively I didn't get my contract renewed. You know, and that was what happened. But yeah, it was scary. It's made me, though, never take anything for granted. Really? Oh, absolutely.

And always had something else. I've always had either a column, you know, I've written a column, or I've had a radio show or I've been writing books. I've never just relied on TV. Because it's easy. What's the easiest thing you can do to change up a show? Change the cushions and change the presenter. You know, and I'm very aware of it.

that and that's why I don't take it for granted. So you have created with Lorraine on ICV, what I would say, having been on your show several times, you have created a real safe space for women over the years. That's really good of you to say it because that's the main aim to yours. But you do. You've done incredible campaigning with breast cancer awareness, the change in check choir. There's been lots of really important women's issues that you have thought to give voice to on daytime television and stuff. And I wondered, you know, you've gone from literally essentially being sacked when your daughter is one month old to creating this kind of bastion for women, I guess, on telly. How much has it changed? Have things changed? Or do you

still, like you say, feel, because obviously there's been what some have said at ITV cuts to what we They would call the women's... No, no, very much so. There have been cuts. I mean, I'm only on for 30 weeks a year and only on for half an hour instead of an hour. But having said that, I still feel that I've got something to say and I want to be there.

And it's exactly what you said. It is for other women specifically. You know, I mean, men do watch as well, but at the core of the show. But we don't care about them. No, we don't care. They've got loads of telly. They've got loads of telly.

They can watch. They can, and they're more than welcome. We're not making it for them. More than welcome. But that is really important to me, especially the campaigns, and just be in a place where you can talk about anything. And I don't care how rich you are, how poor you are, what your religion is, your status or anything like that.

Everybody that comes on that show gets treated exactly the same because that's how it should be. It really is. And I always think it's all about the person you're interviewing, never you. And you know that there are some presenters who that's not true. And we all know who they are. Do we? Oh, we do.

Oh, yes, me doubt. Oh, I love this. But Lorraine, you are brilliant because I, I, you've, you were my first experience of television and I remember you had me on when I wrote my, like, my book about obsessive compulsive disorder. This was 10 years ago. Gosh, was it really? I remember being so nervous and your show like changed the course.

Like, it made that book a bestseller. Like, your show has this real, no, but the viewers really trust you and they trust the things that you talk about and the themes that you alight on and that's really important. I think so and trust is huge because especially if somebody trusts me with their story. Don't be wrong, it's lovely to talk to, you know, A-listers and to talk to people who are on the biggest TV shows and all of that is really good. You know, musical artists or writers, whatever. But it's when people trust you with their story if they've been through something awful and you, you know, and they want to come and talk to you about it.

that that to me is huge. Because you had last week, Giselle. Yeah. We did. Yes, Giselle Pelico. And she was amazing. I mean, what a woman. What an extraordinary woman.

To have gone through that to the man that you trusted. You know, your husband for 50 years drugs you. And not only does he rape you, he gets 50-odd other men to do exactly the same. And I wasn't sure how she was going to be. The strength of that woman's astonishing. And she's found love again. And he was there.

He was behind the cat. A hi, he was Rose. He was behind the camera holding a wee handbag. And when I said to her, and you've found you've somehow managed to trust again. You've somehow managed to rebuild your life and you've got a lovely man. And she just lit up. And I thought, wow, I hope people watching this, women watching this may be in an abusive relationship, you know, maybe physical or mental, whatever it may be.

Can look at her and say, geez, you know what? You can get out of this. You actually can. even something so, so dark, there's light. And that's what we try to do. You know, the light, really, it's important. Rosie, what was it like? Do you, obviously for you, growing up,

this was all normal to have a mum on primetime television and all of that. But do you have any memories? I mean, you were on Lorraine from a very young age. Yeah, I think I was about six weeks. You're a tiny baby when you're on with Dr. Hilary? Yeah. I know. You were so cute.

So cute. It's Dr. Hillary, your GP, Rosie. I like to think that he is. Well, I call him. And I call Dr. Amir a lot. Dr. Amir and Dr. Hillian. And I'm like, something's happened with like, if anything happens, I just call them. So were they like your health visitors when you have Billy?

Totally. I love that. I had the most amazing midwife. But I had some difficulties with my health visitors. So I would, yeah, I would call Dr. Hilary and Dr. Ramir quite a lot. Still do. I still do. That's good privilege.

It really is. Okay. So Rosie, I want to know. Now, this may sound like a rude question. But I feel like this book goes there. Yeah. So I feel like you can just tell me. fuck off. I'm also fascinated. So you talk about meeting this nice guy, your Steve, right? And you

decided pretty early on that you were like, this is, this is for good. Like we would like to have children together. How long had you been with your Steve when you got pregnant? So we met in April and I was pregnant in December. Wow. That is like, amazing. When you know, you know. Yeah. Like the reason I ask is it's personal because I also had a similar thing whereby I had known my, the father of my child for about 10 minutes. Yeah.

We're still together, like 15 years on or 14, whatever, I should know how old my child is. Just go by the age of the baby, that's why I do. So Lorraine, for you as a mum, what was that like to see your baby girl? like? Oh, huge. I'm really huge and very, very emotional. And I really like Steve. Because she's had some crackers.

Some absolute crackers. When you say crackers, do you mean, like, in a good way? No. No. Not really. No. There's been a few. We've gone, oh, no.

You can't say anything. You can't say anything. You can. You can and you should. Oh, but then I would always say, oh, anyhow. Steve was just adorable and lovely. And when Rosie told me that she said, that they, you know, they were having a baby, I was absolutely over the moon.

I was so happy, so, so happy because I never knew whether it would happen. So it was just, yeah, it was, and it's been the bestest, bestest thing. You can tell it lights you up in a way. That kid, I mean, she's just, she is. We're biased, but she is, she's a good baby. I'm not related to her and I met her this morning and she, that I was like, she's special. She is special.

And looking in the book, she looks just like you. Yeah. There's one picture in there that someone said, oh, look at Billy. I'm like, that's me. Yeah. That was me. So all I want to ask you as well is you write a lot about your mental health and the mental health of mothers, which is, again, really not taken into consideration in books.

And actually that's the most important thing because happy mom, happy baby, as we know. But you were on antidepressants when you found out you were pregnant. Yeah, I'd just gone on them. And then when I found out I was pregnant, I was like, cool, I'm not taking anything because basically the doctor said they don't have enough studies to show you what the causes and effects are. So I was like, cool, I'll just go off everything, which is what I did. And how was that?

It was actually okay. I think because I was so preoccupied in my head about the pregnancy. I wasn't thinking about it too much. I was so anxious. Like I'm so anxious. And I had Centipravia, which a lot of pregnant women do, where their placentas blocking cervix, so they have to have a C-section. Everyone always says, oh, we'll only think about it up to week 32. So don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it. That's the lovely phrase. So I had that in my head that I was going to have a section, which is why I did eventually have one. The placenta moved, and it was all fine. But in my head, that's what I was planning for. but yeah I would I just remember thinking like I was very young every night I would go to bed crying because I didn't I was so worried about the birth and so worried about what would happen and then when I sort of decided that it was already the decision made for me I was like okay I don't have to think of it anymore that's what's going to happen it's fine but that was the main thing I was the main thing I was the main thing I was the main I had a little wobble just just as going into the theatre because you walk in and you sit on the bed and you sit on the bed and it's not like you're wheeled like why would you be wielding you're not you don't have anything going on and then they do everything in there so it's quite intense if you have a planned C-section yeah it's

planned one so yeah I didn't I did not walk into my C-section no I sort of I was definitely wheeled in yeah but I didn't care they were like we're so sorry this is the other thing that you deal with so brilliantly is like all births are births yeah you know and you talk about that thing which in the 90s was so prevalent the too posh to push. Yeah. Eat that. And the narrative around Victoria Beckham, you know, the elective.

It's awful. Yeah. I think she's come out saying that she medically had to have a C-Section. And you just like, what? Like my friend is six weeks behind me, her little girl six weeks younger than Billy. And she was very much like, I'm going to have, you know, full, just midwives. I don't want any doctors. I don't want any drugs, la-la, la.

And then when it started, she was like, why am I doing this? Like you're not going to get a medal. Yeah. So why? No, you all get, hopefully, the medal is the baby. The medal is the baby. And like you don't get, you know, a medal for not having any drugs.

So why are you doing it to yourself? Yeah. I always remember that being told about like golden thread breathing. Like go to a yoga class. And when you're in labour, do golden thread breathing. And I was like, fuck off. No, no, I'm not having that. We had a whole hour on breathwork with the antinatal class.

And did they talk to you at all about? It was an hour every time. The first one was about the birth, and it was 50 minutes on a vaginal birth, 10 minutes on a C-section. And usually think, like, some of them are at emergencies. Like, people need to know what to expect and what happens. When I did NCT, they did all of that.

And then they said, also, some of you may have emergency C-sections, but let's not dwell on that because it's a bit negative. And I was like, what? And I put my hand up and it was, like, statistically, like, two of us in this room. Yeah. are going to have it. So could we have a little bit more?

Back in a minute, thank God. I knew you a bit. I ended up writing a column about it, and I got taken off the NCT mailing list by the instructor. Yes. We're laughed, isn't it? Mad. And I did end up having an emergency C section.

And I remember there was lots of apologies. And I was like, this is amazing. Like, thank fuck. Don't apologize. Thank God. Yeah, you can have it. You're giving me an emergency C section because it means me and this baby will live.

Yeah, exactly. 80 years ago, that would not have been the case. No, it's crazy. Crazy. I had a really, I mean, as good as you can have the birth. It was pretty. It was pretty good. Yeah, speaking about the mental health,

I was anxious through the pregnancy, and then as soon as Billy was born, it was like, oh no. Because you get that hormone crash anyway, which I had. But I just, yeah, I lost the plot a little bit. You were very anxious. You were very anxious. And it's totally understood. Yeah.

I think it was, I was in hospital for, I think, two or three nights. And it was because of the shift work, it was a different midwife every couple of hours, basically. Every, like, well, it felt like every couple of hours. It probably wasn't, but for my head, because I was sleeping and not sleeping. It felt that there was about every person that came into the room had a different voice that was telling me something. And something I wasn't doing or something I had, like, oh, does she have a bib with you? And I was like, oh, no, someone told me to not pack a bib, so I don't have that. And then it's, you're failing immediately.

So it just felt like that. You wrote about something that I had never even heard about, which is colostrum harvesting. Yeah, I was supposed to do it now, but I was like, I'm not doing that. Like, before you've had the baby, you're supposed to be like fiddling around with your nipples to get the colostrum out. Oh, jeez. As if you've not enough going on. Oh, the pressure of the poop.

No one told me. I was like, what's colostrum harvesting? It's, uh, it was wild. My milk hadn't come in yet, but it was like yellow liquid coming out of your nipples. And I remember just sort of lying in the hospital and I had one midwife on one boob and the other midwife on another boob,

squeezing out, you know, enough liquid. I was asleep because I was so tired and in so much pain. Sounds like a salt. It was just like, oh, do you want to do it? And I was like, yeah, sure, because it's the best thing for her. Yeah. But, I mean, I remember we did one of those weird 4D scans

and the baby looks like an alien. And she did look like an alien, a very beautiful alien, but she was sucking on the umbilical cord in the scan. And I just knew from then that she was going to love her grub, what she does. So she went through, like, we brought formula with us in the hospital. She went through bottles of it the minute she was born. And like, my milk wasn't in. So she, you know, I had in my head, oh, she's just going to be breastfed.

And I'm actually, no, she just wants food. It doesn't actually. Again, you don't get a medal for formula feeding or breastfeeding. You said just then that you felt that you had a, you know, it was a funny time. And you talk in the book about getting therapy and stuff. Do you think you had a bit of postnatal depression? I think I had a mixture of that and what they now call, which I didn't know, is the postpartum anxiety.

I think I definitely had that. I had a really big thing about Steve's safety. I had this thing in my head that someone was going to come and attack us, but then leave. And we weren't going to die, but someone was going to come in, like, harm us. And then they would, like, go away. But that sort of did happen.

It did happen, yeah, it did. Right, well, I've started to feel a bit better. I had, like, there was a time where there was a storm, I think she was only a couple of weeks old, and there was flashings of lightning. And I, in my head that that was someone with a flashlight trying to get in the door, but that you could not have told me that that was not what was happening.

And to not be in control of that is quite scary. Because in fact, when I said it to Steve, I was like, he's like, are you? Are you okay? Are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I am okay. this is what's happened. Like that's how convinced I was.

Yeah, totally. And you're not sleeping. So it's even like that child did not sleep. She sleeps now. My God. I was lucky if I got two hours. It's a heady combination, isn't it? Hormones, lack of sleep.

Like it's actually probably weirder if you don't get some sort of mental health issue. Absolutely. That's the really good way to look at it, to be honest. Yeah. It really is. So just as you were starting to feel a bit better about Steve not being attacked, Yeah. She had to have his location on his phone whenever he left the house. But then you were sort of attacked by what?

Yeah, it was a really bizarre time. There was a guy on our street. We have a WhatsApp group on our street. And there was a guy who was known to vandalize cars and shout at people and just not be. He's arrested constantly. So there's always police on the on the street. And we were walking, I think it was one of Billy, one of our first like pram walks because I couldn't go out and walk. so much pain from the section and just from being so tired. No one talks about how painful it is. I just didn't want to walk. No, I just didn't want to go out.

And we went out and we did it. And we were crossing the road. And I was obviously not being able to walk that fast. So this guy started shouting at me saying, like, hurry up. He swore and everything. And then I can't really remember that it was a bit of a blur. But he said something about how he was going to kill Steve.

and then do it in front of our bait because we had the pram and stuff. So it was, and then we saw, I was obviously not taking anything in and just crying. Steve was very much like the man and he used to work for the police. So he was like, we're going to call the police right now and everything's going to be fine. I'm going to say exactly all these codes and words that will be used seriously. And I'm like, I don't think you need to do that because that was quite serious. And yeah, we knew that was him. So when we got to the house, the police came around, interviewed Steve.

I was breastfeeding. So like the police were like, boobs were flying. It was just a lot going on. And then they went to, yeah, it's good for them to see. And then they went to arrest him. And then he think we, Steve didn't tell me this until later on,

but he assaulted the police officer. So he got arrested again. But because of the wording he used to Steve, it was seen as attempted murder. So he was charged with that. Wow. Yeah, it's nuts. And is that that hasn't gone to court yet?

It's gone to court. So Steve took the executive decision to drop the charges because we had already moved house. We wanted to start a new. Clean start. And he didn't want to go to court. I still have mixed feelings about it. We would be going to court probably this summer, I think. But we were like, I think he's got a list of arrests, a list of things.

I do feel guilty not being there, but I also think I just don't think it would be healthy for both of us to be in that situation. Wow. So how do you feel now that, like mentally? I feel okay, actually. Yeah, I feel a lot better than I was. I'm not on anything. And I had, I went back on the, what's it called, certuline after birth. And then I had a pre-perinatal nurse every week that would just talk to me. And then I did CBT every other week. And he's always said, if you need anything, just email me. So I always have that in the back of my mind.

I can email him. I think it's also really important to have these conversations, Rosie, because I think if there's anyone listening who is pregnant or who has just had a baby and is having dark, intrusive thoughts, there's often a lot. And if someone says to them, it's just baby blues. Yeah. Well, you talk about that.

So undermines the severity of what it feels. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But also, I think a lot of new parents are scared to tell people because they're scared that then their child might be taken away from them. And so it's really good to hear that. When I was pregnant, I, like you, took myself off antidepressants. And I went properly mad. Like, it felt awful.

And so I went back on them, but they then assigned me to a perinatal. mental health unit, which I now look back when I googled it, it was like for mothers with severe mental illness. And it really shocked me because I thought I was this like, you know, 32-year-old woman just pootling along. But I remember they really took good care of me while I was pregnant. And then when I had my daughter, the daughter, when I had the child, they came and they were just, it was a really beautiful glimpse into how well the NHS

can do mental health and how they will look after us if you, you know, you ask. And so I'm really grateful to you for speaking out about these experiences because we don't know who's listening and who needs to hear that. No, the care I got was incredible. And they were very much like, do you want to do this? And I was like, no. And they said, I think we should, we should do that. And I'm like, okay.

Because I was supposed to do, I think, group therapy. But it just didn't feel very right for me. And then I kind of thought, oh, God, what is now? And then they said, do the CBT. That's what I did. So I had really good care from the beginning. I think I had the most amazing midwife who extended my care. She was the one that was in charge afterwards as well.

I don't think it's the same in every sort of city. And you met Laura as well. She's just... Absolutely brilliant. Just one of those people you think, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to be okay. Exactly.

She's fantastic. She's great. But you also had your mom. Yeah. But you two were very close. I know. I mean, your mother are a daughter, so it's quite normal. be close.

Not always though. No. No, really not, sadly. But you couldn't really tell me everything. No, I think sometimes it is quite good to have someone who's a professional and someone who's not your friend or your family member, someone who's completely outside of it. Because you do, like, even like you say, how are you? I'm like, I'm fine.

Always fine. Everyone's time. Leave me alone. I don't want to talk about it. And you weren't fine. No, I wasn't. But you did something about it. Yeah.

Which was great. So I was kind of there thinking, right, okay, because of course all you want to do is make everything all right, you know what I mean, you do. But I knew you were getting looked after. Yeah. But at the same time, I was like, oh, you need to talk to me. It's like, talk to me, talk to me, talk to me.

But you did, and it was fine, but I think fine. But I'm just glad you got help. I'm so glad you just didn't try to soldier on, which would have been like in your granny's day or my day, it was kind of like, oh, just get on with it. You know, it was like all baby blues, like you said, you know, oh, it's just baby blues, don't worry about it, you'll be fine. You know, just get on with it.

Everyone will be okay. And actually, a lot of the times it isn't. More often than not, really, you know, it really isn't. I mean, it's what women go through. Did you have any experiences of that? Did you have anything kind of similar? It probably happened, I think, with not having a job. You know, that was when, I think it would have happened anyway,

because I think you do have that crash. But yeah, it was hard. It was really, really hard. I do remember just thinking, you know, that way you're going to shut down? You just put your shields up and you just think, right, and I was, I don't want to leave the house. And I'm just going to stay here.

I'm just going to stay here. And it'll just be me and stay even you. You know, with the three of us, there's a wee unit. And I don't want to deal with anything. I don't want to deal with anything at all. But I still, thankfully, I didn't have that flatness,

you know, that I had. when I went through the menopause, which was just really flat and no joy in anything. I still had the joy of you, you know, when you were a baby, Rosie. So that was really good. So I didn't lose that. But oh yeah, it was hard. It was really difficult. And I don't think we talk about it enough.

And I'm really glad that you've put that in the book because it's really important for it's not all to just Instagram everything and say, everything's great. Everything's around. Look at me. I'm fantastic. And life is not like that. And you never know what people are going through. That's the other thing. you just never know.

So talking there about menopause and about all of these things, there's in the book, can we talk about your mother's vagina? Oh, of course. Absolutely. I'd be happy to talk about it. Nothing else. What? I don't know if you know this, but Rosie in the book talks about how your mom didn't know what a vagina was.

No. Yeah. She didn't. No idea. And the wider context of this is about sort of the birds and the bees. as we euphemistically call it, the conversations that we have from generation to generation,

obviously no one had spoken to your mum. No. Did your mum speak to you, Lorraine? Not really. Not really, to be honest, because she did, I don't think she had the, I don't think she just had the words

apart from anything else. She didn't have the education as well. No, but we didn't talk about stuff like that. You know, all of a sudden, there she was, she went out with my dad did what they had to do after, you know, the dancing on a Friday night, and then I have popped up,

And I think I was in, well, obviously that was a surprise, but a real surprise. Because she'd been brought up in a convent. She didn't know anything to do with anything, you know. She'd had no idea what goes where and why and what are the consequences, which is crazy. And that's one massive change, I think, is the fact that we now know, we know things. We know what happens if you put something. Yes, but yeah, you're right. She didn't, she didn't know the terminology.

You know, she didn't know that a vagina. or a vulva or whatever it may be and what was going to happen and, you know, she just didn't know. The one thing though, which was amazing was she was in hospital for a week, wasn't she? Yeah, after birth, she was in hospital for a whole week. Luxury.

Can you imagine that now? And she was taught how to breastfeed and taught to change nappies. And back then it was Terry Towling nappies. Can you imagine anything worse? But she was given, you know, she was given a lot of help then. And she needed it.

Did she ever talk to you about things like periods? or did that just come out? You were just like, oh. We learned about that at school. Oh, you did? Yeah, we got taught about that at school. It's still a shock. But yeah, no, she didn't really talk about stuff like that,

funnily enough. It's a, I think it's a generational thing as well. Did you have that? You didn't have that conversation? Not really, and I should have. I mean, that's really bad. I didn't. No, you are not.

Pauling. No, but we didn't really. I think that was, no, we didn't really sort of talk about that or talk about, yeah, you did all that school, didn't you? because you sort of knew when it was, I mean, I knew when it was all happening and stuff like that, when we talked about it then, but not beforehand. Not beforehand.

And it was great. I mean, I still can't believe that you've got that gorgeous wee baby and you've, you know, it's the best thing in the world. It's wonderful. Just wonderful. Being a granny is the best thing. She tells me Nana. She calls a banana Nana as well.

She does. She can call me anything. I really don't care. You are smitten, aren't you? Beyond. Has it changed the way you think about life? Absolutely. Because the centre of the universe is that baby. And we basically are satellites around this child. And we'll just fit everything in. And if Rosie will say to me, can you babysit? And I don't care if I'm meeting George Clooney or whatever or interviewing Hugh Jackman. Yes, we could. But I don't care what's happening. I'll just, everything is dropped. But you know, if you've got to do a silly old interview with somebody or whatever, no, if you've got sort of like half an hour to play bubbles and look at puddles for Ted. minutes is wonderful. Do you trust the timing? Like I always think, you know, people talk about

the universe giving you what you need at the right time and all of that. Do you trust that you had Billy when there was this, you know, when you were told that your show was going down to 30 weeks and it's like a bit of perspective. Oh gosh, it is. Absolutely. Of course it is. That makes sense, doesn't it? That really does. And it reminds you of what is the most important thing in the world. Yeah. It really does. And it kind of just, because I remember when you were born and I looked at your we face and I remember thinking, aha, that's where it's about, right, I get it now. I understand now what it's all about. And then everything else is kind of, you know, this is the main thing.

You're the centre of the world and then everything else. Because I'm sure you're like that with her, aren't you? Yeah. She is totally the center of everything. And you do. You just change things around, make sure the most important thing that she's happy. And you just make it work. You just make it work.

And you make it work beautiful. She's a brilliant mum. Much better than me. and also cooks everything from scratch. Oh, come on. You get fed for jars if you were lucky. To be fair, you were like trying to, you were trying to, you know, you were clearly working with kind of, I mean, I'm not going to lie,

that the people you worked for in the 90s sound like absolute misogynistic psychopaths. I think that's fair enough. That might be a bit rude to the psychopaths. Do you ever mean? Like, you were having a lot of. It was a different time. It was a different time. Thank goodness it's not like that now.

Oh my good. We've come so far. Still got a ways to go, but we have come so far. But I watch you and all. I really do. I mean, it's just the way she juggles everything and handles everything.

And wrote a book while this baby was tiny. I mean, you started writing it before she was even born. Just right at the last minute, didn't you? And then you've got a wee, teeny tiny baby. I didn't even know what my name was. I had toast in my hair and sick down my back. So did I. You did, but you don't manage to date.

I'm thinking I don't know. You did it. I really don't. It's astonishing. Okay. So what I want to know is we talk about a lot about mothering other people, you know, our children. How good are you at mothering yourself? Because that is a really important thing to be able to do, right?

Yeah, totally. You have to look after yourself, right? I'm not very good. I know. I think I remember when Billy was about maybe four or five months. and I kept just wanting to come home all the time to be mothered which I didn't really realise

to me you meant come home I like that she says I wanted to come home isn't that nice you are her home Lurray that's so lovely and it's great that we live very close to one another now so it's brilliant it's absolutely fantastic

it's changed everything hasn't it's been really good yeah because you need to be looked after as well as well as tiny you need to be but no I'm not very good at looking after myself I'm not, it's that people-pleasing sort of you're at the bottom of a long list. So I'm not great at that. No, I'm not really. I'm not really.

And I'm actually happier looking after somebody else. I'm happier looking after Billy or looking after you or looking after your dad or looking after my parents because I've got that way. We're my mom now because my dad's no longer with us. But I'm kind of, you know, I think that's what women do. And especially now that we've got, you know, I mean, I'm lucky at my age still to have my mum. And it's only because she had me when she was so incredibly young. So I've got that, you know, I'm sort of, as she's getting a bit older and her health's not great. You know, you do take care of her.

That's what you do. That's what you do. So, you know, and I actually find that, I mean, she doesn't always appreciate it because she's like, I don't need to be molycoddled. Do you know, I'm fine? I'm fine. I don't need to, you know, you don't need to. Don't make a fuss. Sometimes don't make a fuss.

I'm like, right, okay, so you've got to do things, you know, so she doesn't know about them. Do you know what to me? Stealth. Stealth. Stealth. Stealth. Stealth. I think we are very guilty as women, especially mums that we put ourselves right,

the bottom of the list. There's like everything that's kids and then maybe, you're another family, then maybe husbands, then maybe pets. And there we are down at the bottom. Hello. But I get the impression that you're good standing up for yourself. No. No.

No, I let things go too much. Do that? Yeah, but that's so interesting. But that might be like what I want to believe. about you as my telly mum. Gotcha. Do you know what I mean? Like, so again, I might be putting,

like I also, I just look up to women like you and just think what you have created and what you represent is just really important. Do you know, that's so lovely of you to say that because sometimes you don't think like that. You don't. You just think you're sort of blundering through and hoping for the best,

you know, which is what I think we all try to do. I mean, so often with women in, well in most industries, but also in broadcasting, in journalism, what happens is women's issues and women's lifestyle stuff

is sort of dismissed and seen as fluffy and not very important. And actually, what you do, it is really important. You know, daytime telly is so often dismissed. Oh, very much so. It's fluffy and all of that. I mean, we used to get called,

my show used to get called soft furnishings. Yes. They're very dismissing. You know, when I worked a newspaper for 24 years, they called the Features Department, which is where I worked, which was where as soft furnishing. They called us the Cotswolds. And news was like, I was like, what, you're Baghdad or something, are you? Do you know what I mean?

Like, none of you fucking leave your desk. You're not out there. You know what I mean? But yeah, so there's this dismissiveness. And yet the impact your daytime television has on people's lives in alerting them to things like, yeah, lumps in their breasts, mental health. There are really important issues that you are discussing that change people's lives. Gosh, that's amazing.

Thank you. And that is not to be dismissed. And you're doing that with this book, Rosie Kelly Smith. I hope so. Okay, can I read you the quote that I just thought was so perfect and is what I want to end with is when you say, because I think this will help anyone listening who any mums, anyone who's beating themselves up this week. This episode is going out the week of Mother's Day, you know, who has, who feels like

they're not appreciated or that they're not doing enough. And you write, children don't thrive in perfection. They thrive in safety, security, consistency and love. And I just thought that was such a beautiful quote that was just, just, Just sums it all up. Yeah. I forgot I wrote that. You're the wise woman.

Yeah. You're the wise women. I'm not. Lorraine and Rosie, you are two very wise women. And I'm very grateful to you for sharing your wisdom with the listeners of the life of Briney. Thank you. Thank you so much. What a joy.

Huge thank you to Lorraine and Rosie for such a funny, feel-good chat. I want to know how your own experience of parenting or being parented has shifted over the years. So come and let me know an Instagram at at Life of Brianny Pod. Lorraine and Rosie will be back on Friday for our special bonus episode, The Life of You, where they'll be spilling the beans on the things that keep them grounded when life, family and group chats are all kicking off at once. In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate and rave about us to your friends, because it really does help. But most of all, keep being you. I'll see you next time.