The Life Of Bryony - What Vogue Williams Learned from Loss, Love and Letting Go

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

MY GUEST THIS WEEK: VOGUE WILLIAMS This week, I’m joined by podcast royalty Vogue Williams—broadcaster, writer, and co-host of My Therapist Ghosted Me—whose hilarious new memoir Big Mouth is packed with outrageous stories, unflinching honesty, and the kind of emotional truth that sneaks up on you. We talk about growing up in 90s Ireland, why Irish funerals are unexpectedly joyful, and how Vogue’s chaotic first wedding helped her realise what she really wanted in a partner. She opens up about the long illness and death of her beloved father, the anxiety that followed, and how writing became the only thing that quieted her mind. Vogue also shares what it’s like navigating fame, gossip, and mum-life while trying to stay grounded—and why she’ll always keep beta blockers in the bathroom cupboard, just in case. If you’ve ever struggled with grief, anxiety, or just trying to hold everything together while making people laugh, Vogue’s mix of humour and honesty will speak to you. LET’S STAY IN TOUCH 🗣 Got something to share? Text or send a voice note on 07796657512—just start your message with LOB. 💬 Use the WhatsApp shortcut: https://wa.me/447796657512?text=LOB 📧 Prefer email? Drop me a line at [e-mail]. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who might need a laugh or a little reassurance—it really helps the show reach more people. Bryony xx BOOKS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE 📚 Big Mouth by Vogue WilliamsA sharp, funny and unexpectedly moving memoir from the Irish presenter and podcast host. Buy here: https://www.waterstones.com/book/big-mouth/vogue-williams/9780008743376  CREDITS 🎙️ Presenter: Bryony Gordon🧑‍ Guest: Vogue Williams📝 Content Producer: Jonathan O’Sullivan🛠️Studio Manager: Sam Chisholm🎧 Audio & Video Editor: Luke Shelley📢 Executive Producer: Mike Wooller A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I'd love you to join me for a very special Life of Briney live show on Wednesday, May 21st at the Business Design Centre in London. I'll be joined on stage by the brilliant Helen Flanagan to talk about OCD, motherhood and self-worth. And we'll no doubt be doling out some hugs too. Tickets are on sale now at aegpresents.co.uk. That's aegpresents.co.uk. Just go and search for Life of Bryony Live and I hope to see you there. Welcome to the Life of Bryony. Now, how well do you think you know Vogue Williams? She is, after all, one of the country's most successful podcasters. You'll probably know her from My Therapist Ghosted Me and you're no doubt following her on Instagram where she documents her life with her kids

and her husband Spencer Matthews in all its chaotic glory. But on today's episode of Life of Briny, Vogue is showing me a side of herself that we've never seen before. Because I remember I was divorced at 31 and I was like basically that's it, I've ruined my life. I'm never going to have kids, I'm never going to do what I always wanted to do and then you see how your life actually starts to unfold and that's why I think it's exciting to move into your 40s. My conversation with Vogue Williams coming up right after this.

If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am Peter Hitchens. And this is Alas! Vine and Hitchens asking all the questions this week. The death penalty and holidays are arguably a fate worse than death. Oh, come on. Don't let this get carried away.

Do please join us wherever you get to your podcasts. Thank you. If you like this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm David Patrick Karakos. And on this week's episode of Apocalypse Now, as Donald Trump heads to Doha, we discuss Qatar, a small state at the center of a world increasingly ridden with faction and conflict. Listen to Apocalypse Now wherever you get your podcasts.

Vogue, uh, Williams, I read your book, Big Mouth, and I absolutely fucking love it. Yes! So, because the thing is, lots of, like, celebrities write autobiographies, and often not very much happens in it, and you're like, oh, bloody hell. This was getting blood from a stone. I could have carried on reading that. I wanted double. I wanted more.

I can't believe you read it before this interview. I think that's so much. Why wouldn't I read it? I don't know, it's just really nice and professional. No, it's because also I know- You could have just got notes. I know, but writing books as well I know that you really know when someone hasn't read your book and they invite you in for a podcast or something like that. Yeah. I felt a bit nervous this morning because I'm like Vogue Williams is coming in and she's the queen of podcasts and I am but a humble peasant in the podcast world. I I was just so excited to meet you.

And I do think, okay, so having read the book, I do think that we are meant to be bestest friends. And also like that maybe you are my sister from another mister because I have to like, I'm sorry, I don't want to take Joanne's place or anything like that. Like when I tell you this, you're gonna to be like, whoa, like this is okay. So this is not maybe so, whoa, like we both love Dr. Dre 2001.

That's unbelievable. Every song. We both have little Naomi's and big Naomi's in our family. Do you? Yes. How does big Naomi feel? Because little Naomi is the one who gets annoyed in my family. And I'm like, how do you think big Naomi feels? Little Naomi is your... She's my cousin. Your cousin and big Naomi is your aunt. Big Naomi is my aunt. Who used to be your teacher. Yeah poor big Naomi. Okay so then also

we were both absolute caners in our in our teams and 20s like both occasionally would go straight to work from a night out. And also both of our first weddings were absolute fucking chaos. Oh, you've been married twice? No, I've only been married once. I'm still married. So I may be there, but it will be a second wedding. But like my first wedding, because I was still drinking and using, ended. My husband was like passed out and I basically was sat

up taking cocaine and watching porn. I've written about this. And when I read about your first wedding, can you just tell us a bit about your first wedding? The black eye. Oh, no, no, no. Black lip, black lip. I basically got really drunk. My mum said that as well. She was like, there's a lot of drinking in this book. And actually I don't drink that much. I've never liked the taste of alcohol. And like, I never, like no one invites me to the pub. If someone invites me to the pub, I'm like, do you actually even know me? Like no one invites me to the pub. But when, when you put all this funny stories together, a lot of them involve drinking. But the first wedding, yeah, I mean, it just

wasn't great. It was beautiful on paper, like just amazing on paper. But I was very young. I think what age were you when you got married? I mean, I don't have youth as an excuse. I was like 32. You see, I was 26. Yeah, you do. It's too young. I think I like no offense to anyone who gets married when they're 26 and it works out for them, I wasn't mature enough. In school I wanted to skip fourth year, like you're allowed to skip fourth year when you're

16 because it's transition year so you're doing things like making pretend dresses and stuff like that. And I wanted to skip and they were like, sorry, no, you're way too immature, you can't skip. So by the time I was 26 I definitely wasn't in a position to get married, but I did and I was in love at the time, I'm not going to take position to get married, but I did. And like, I was in love at the time. Like, I'm not going to take that away from it. But I got really drunk on the night before the wedding, two nights before the wedding. And I basically had gone home and was giving out about anything I could give out about.

And then I slipped on a plastic bag and I landed basically on my face and my wrists. So my wrists had caught the fall a lot, but thank God I could have lost teeth. And I woke up the next day and I was like, you know, I wake up and you're just like, and I was like, I was like, why does my face feel so weird? And yeah, I woke up when I had a full, like massive lip, all black under my chin, black wrists. And my poor best friend Ashley was so

excited to be doing my makeup for the wedding because it was going in Hello magazine, it was going in Okay magazine. It was a massive thing for her and she walked in and I remember her being like yeah it's fine honestly it's okay and then oh she went to Mac to get tattoo makeup and I'm because she had come in and reassured me I was like oh it's grand who cares it's fine but then she had come in and reassured me I was like, oh it's grand, who cares it's fine but then she had to keep fixing my makeup the whole time, the whole day, so yeah. I love the story about the best man not showing up because he'd like gone on a bender and that felt very, I mean I know this is not a book about the best man, I don't even know who the best man was but I felt that was... Oh you'd know! Okay!

I felt that was... Oh, you'd know! Okay. That was quite... He's actually, he's a really funny guy. He's really funny, but he's massively like famous in Australia. Okay. Hugely famous. And he works in a radio station and he basically had been...

This was like an ongoing thing for like eight months before the wedding about how he was the best man and how he was going to be brilliant at the wedding and all the things he was planning for the wedding. And then he arrived, but didn't arrive. I was like, Oh my God, you know, when there's just like, everything kind of starts just falling. It was like, Oh, this is not great. This isn't great. I definitely once went on a bender and didn't go to a wedding. Stop reading. And I pretended I have food poisoning and I feel terrible and I do owe those people an amends. But they were also like 25 when they were getting married and I was like, I'm not mature enough. Like, they're not getting married at 26. I was not mature enough at 26 to be going

to people's weddings. To attend it. I remember my brother, my brother couldn't make the first wedding because he was living in Australia. I mean, it was a bit lazy on his part and he just said to me, he was like, I'll go to the next one. And I was like, really deeply offended by it. And then he actually did go to the next one. So it worked out well. So one last thing that we have in common is that we basically have the same surname, because your actual surname is Wilson, is that not? Williams. No, Williams, but in the book. So my real actual so my real

surname is Williams. Yeah. Changed it to Wilson. Yeah. But I still use Williams. No I know but I was quite surprised in there when I read that you have like your because it was your stepdad's. Yes. Yeah I'm like you know I know your name is not Bay Wilson by the way just in case. Bay Wilson was great in the yard wasn't she? I know your name is Vogue Williams. So is your name Bryony? So my married name is Wilson. How come you didn't use the married name? I like my husband, he's really nice and everything.

But I don't want to, I'm not, like I just severe weird taking your other half's name. It's a lot of admin. It's a lot of admin, but my stepdad looks after all my finances and stuff. So and he like if my password goes out of date, he gets me a new password. So I was thinking I could do something nice for Spencer and just like change my password and bank card. And then I was like, I'm not doing it. And now that Neil's on board, I'm like,

maybe I will do it. He'll have a ton in a day. So okay. So yeah, so that was but anyway, but that was like, so I feel like we've got a lot in common and we should be best friends. I would love to be best friends with you. It's a bit of a weird, I'm like, the producers looking at me like, Brian, you've never basically tried to date someone who's come on the podcast. I love having nice friends in London. We also live really close to each other. Oh my God, we could go running together. I'm crap.

No, well, hello. How crap are running together. I'm crap. Well hello. How crap are you though? I'm really slow. Like what's your what's your pace? Uh like it takes me a good few hours to run a 5k. No I'm joking it takes me about 38 minutes to run a 5k. I'll do that with you. No problem. I love that. Anyway in all seriousness I love this book. And the thing I relate to most is using humor as a way, often to kind of like deal with quite like dark stuff because it is, there's a lot of fun in here and there's a lot of great stories of like a life that's been properly lived.

But it's also really moving. There's parts, you see the thing about it is, like I do with the book, I think people think that I'm just talking about stuff that I've spoken about before, but I think I just wanted to go deeper with this and talk about grief and anxiety and all those kind of things that like lots of us are going through. But I don't really have a platform where I would talk about those kind of things, you know what I mean? Because when I do, my podcasts are all just meant to be like funny and light. And we just, not that we wouldn't go into anything deep, but like you kind of make,

you make light of things. Like I make jokes about things that are difficult a lot of the time, but I kind of just let it flow in there. But also I didn't want people like I want people to take that book to the beach in the summer and like read it on the beach and be able to laugh. And I read Lou Sanders book actually when I was writing my book. And I loved that about her book as well. Like she's a comedian.

And although she was saying those are dark stuff, she was actually really funny as well. Yeah, it's very much like laughing one minute, crying the next. Yeah. Your book. I was well when I was in the audio. Also, by the way, do not hate yourself after you write a book. Honestly, I didn't want to look at my I was like, I can't believe because when I was doing the editing, do you not hate yourself after you write a book? Honestly, I didn't want to look at my, I was like, I can't believe, because when I was doing the editing, I was like, I've read this book four times. Yeah, that is, but you, I mean, the other thing is you actually wrote it, which is quite

unusual for a celebrity. I've heard, I've heard that a lot of, no, but like lots of, lots of them don't, lots of people don't, they get ghostwriters and you were like, no, I'm doing this myself. Yeah, I love, I see, I love writing. I've always written, whether I'm doing like an article for something or anything like that, and I really enjoy the writing process. And for me, I just wanted it to be in my voice.

I wanted it to be exactly the way things like process, even in my mind. And I think that anyone reading it will know that I've written it as well. And I just, it was such a sense of achievement to finish it because I actually got the deal in September, but I needed to hand it in by February, but I finished it in January because I just became obsessed. I just loved doing it. It's the only time that my mind switched off because my mind never, it's so noisy in there all the time. But when I was writing it was just calm and it was so, I found a real joy in writing from doing that book. I mean, you can really tell that it's like, it's a passion project.

Yeah, big time. But like, there is a tenderness to it. That's what I was thinking last night when I finished it. I was thinking there's a real kind of I think that the humor in it and the that you don't take yourself too seriously but you do take the things that need to be taken seriously seriously if that makes sense. Ah yeah, for deafness. So you and can we talk about your dad because I feel like we've yeah like loads of like fun and now I'm like can we talk about that?

Let's bring up the dead dad. The dead dad, dead dad. I mean, that's that bit where you write. Sometimes your brain's just going dead dad, dead dad, dead dad. Oh, it's perfume. Oh, yeah. Poor Joe Malone. Now, this is because my not poor Joe Malone. You are loaded. Loaded Joe Malone. Yeah, she's she's she's she's she's grand.

So my auntie Sharon, we call her we got her triple wick Sharon because she has these really big, huge Jo Malone candles all around her house. And when he died, he was laid out, is that the way you say it, in her house in a bed just off the kitchen. And she had these Jo Malone candles, the pomegranate noir lighting. And all I think of when I say, and I have a bottle of it at home, because this will I feel like it was really I felt like I'd kind of come to terms with his death when I started like spraying at the odd time and being like wearing dead dad. But me and Amber would smell it off people because it's really popular. We were like, oh, she's wearing dead

dad. Just smell it. Well, quite triggering. Yeah, just because we were so used to that smell over that weekend and everything feels so vivid when you're going through a time like that. But you literally, you and Amber, your sister, you stayed with him the whole time that weekend. Like you, you, you sat up until three in the morning or didn't you like fall asleep? Well, yeah. So, so in Ireland, it's really quick, by the way, we like he was dead on Friday morning, buried on Sunday.

Like we do it quick. You guys withdraw out. You like to hang on to those bots. We were done. But but no. So we are like it's a very boozy affair. A funeral in Ireland like funerals in Ireland are a lot of fun. Like obviously they're very sad, but like it's a real party.

It's a real like you're sending someone off. Like you're it's a great time. You're remembering them. And so we're having drinks in Sharon's house and we were like, we'll just we better stay with them. We don't want to leave them on their own. And we'd had a few drinks and so we fell asleep and then I woke up at like three in the morning and I was like, oh my God, like, oh my God, Amber, Amber, we have to go. It's like a coffee. There's a body in the room. Yeah, that's like a hangover. We were like, what were we thinking? But but with his with the stuff that I wrote about him, I took

there's certain parts in the book that I took breaks. So I took breaks from that because it really did feel heavy. But when I was doing the audio record, my God, the poor guy in there. So basically we were recording the audio and it got to my dad and I wasn't expecting to cry and I started crying and I was like, I'm really sorry, I'm really sorry. And then I was like, can we just skip this bit? And then I got a call that my dog was sick. So then I burst out crying again and this guy was like, he just met me.

I was like, I'm actually not usually like this. I had to leave bawling crying because I thought my dog was then dead. So it was an interesting time recording this. Your dog was OK? Yeah, he was. Winston. Winston. Winston's so old. He's so I honestly I thought he because he was getting groomed and he collapsed and I thought he was dead. And I was cycling through Soho bawling, crying on the

bike, like tears going down my eyes like, and I was like, if anyone sees me, they'll just say, Spencer and Vogel came first. I was like, if anyone sees me, they'll just say Spencer and Volker getting divorced. I was like, and it's nothing to do with that. Winston. Yeah, it's Winston. It's not always about that. I mean, the, the, the, that's understandable. Like I felt quite, I mean, should we talk, let's talk about your parents got divorced when you were quite young. Yeah, when I was around, I'd say six or seven. And that was actually, so we're talking like early 90s?

Yeah, early 90s. But this is when like divorce was so framed upon in Ireland. When divorce went through in Ireland, I think it was like 51% to 49%. So 49% of the country believes that if you married somebody, you had to stay married to them for the rest of your life, no matter what was going on, which is completely wild. And that only changed in the early 90s. I mean, it only became legal to actually get divorce. Yeah. Yeah. And so my mom, they'd been separated, I think they weren't living together. And yeah, and then they got divorced. But I remember sitting in church with my mom,

I wrote about it in the book. And and the priest started talking about how wrong second marriages are and how it's a sin to be in a second marriage because of all the divorce stuff that was going on. And my mom just said, come on, we're leaving. And so we left the church and then she was like, I'm not going back there. If you want to go back to mass, you are more than welcome to go back. But I won't be going again. After they said that, I mean, we were thrilled because I don't know if you've been to Mars. It's not that much fun. So we were like, we're standing with you. So yes, but that was I mean, you write about in the book how it was like, that sort of

weird sense of kind of shame that seems bonkers now. Like it's just so wild. So you were living in now let me get this not pronounce this right because my husband used to live here in this place. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he took me there and we went swimming. He couldn't get us into the fish and shit restaurant but there was another one he took

me to and he's like you pronounce it how how how you go to how he's like no everyone says that no how so you were living in hope no so I grew up kind of important morning till I was seven then you went to Sutton Sutton which is only the road to how sorry to anyone who lives in something but it's true because how this amazing and then and then I and then I moved Hoth when I was probably about eight. But it's funny because I'm always a blow and I'll always be a blow in to Hoth because I wasn't actually born there and I wasn't brought up there. But Hoth is kind of like it's a peninsula and we are all,

anyone who lives there is so obsessed with Hoth, like unusually obsessed. And it's just a really fun place to live. It's beautiful. It's absolutely gorgeous, isn't it? You write about the sort of quite chaotic childhood, you know, like in the pub with your dad. I mean, you're very, you're very respectful of your father. Yeah. And how you talk about he liked to drink. Yeah. Well, he died of fun, I said. He died of fun.

Yeah. I mean, can you talk a bit about what his, what like his... I think I'm very, I like to say that he was fond of the drink. I mean, I don't think that it affected us in any certain way because when my parents woke up, we were really lucky that like my dad just didn't disappear from our lives. Like he wanted to spend time with us. He wanted to be with us. And it was really, really evident to us that he wanted to. And he had Wednesdays and every

second weekend and he'd never, ever missed them. And any extra day that he could have when we were younger, he would have taken. He used to come to the school gates and like we'd be playing it in the playground and he'd bring us a brunch and Snickers and just give it to us when we were in the playground and all the other kids would be like, that's just so unfair and we'd be thrilled. So he was always around like that, but he definitely, he drank to excess. Um, but not like, like he wasn't waking up in the morning and drinking or anything like that, but like my childhood, I'm finding a lot of people and it's mainly people in the UK that are like, that's very strange that you spent so much time

in the pub, but like, I wasn't't I wasn't the only child in the pub. The pub was like full of us. Like we all went with our parents and like playing games with beer mats and collecting beer mats and like we would be sent off to the pier. Like where we'd like we'd have a fishing wad and we'd go to the carnival around the corner. So we weren't just sitting in a pub all the time. But it's very much where our family would kind of chill. Like my dad's family, my dad's side of the family,

like his grandparents would have always gone to the pub. You get to the pub for your lunch. That's just the way it was. It's just and it's not it's not a very done thing over here. Well, I think it's probably quite it's also quite like a nineties thing, isn't it? Yeah. Like there's a lot of things like it was what struck me reading the book is that when you talk about like you talk about your childhood and that period and I always think when I think about like the 90s, I'm like it was just yesterday and obviously and like put it into start relief. You're reading a book of like no it was quite a long time ago and things really have changed. Things I mean even think about like kids car seats. We used to fight over the

back window. So we would want to just sit in the back like some was hanging off the exhaust. We would go in the boot. Yeah. The boot was like sure. Yeah, your car would be just full of kids. It wouldn't matter. There could be two of you in the front seat. It just that's just the way it was. Yeah. It's so different now. But I think everything is so different, even like with regards to the things that I take my kids to do. Like this weekend we're swimming, we're at gymnastics, we had two kids party, we went to Legoland. Like we didn't do stuff like that. They have like a busy social life. I know. It's exhausting.

It's like when Monday comes, I'm like, yes. Yes. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm Sarah Vine. And I am Peter Hitchens. And this is Alas! Byan and Hitchens, asking all the questions this week. The death penalty and holidays are giving arguably a fate worse than death. Oh, come on.

Don't let this get carried away. Do please join us wherever you get to your podcast. Thank you. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm David Patrick Karakos. And on this week's episode of Apocalypse Now, as Donald Trump heads to Doha, we discuss Qatar, a small state at the center of a world increasingly ridden with faction and conflict. Listen to Apocalypse Now wherever you get your podcasts.

Fond of a drink, fond of a drink, loved smoking. I never remember him doing any exercise. He used to smoke in the dark. I know this is terrible, but like he would literally smoke and he kind of just aim his ash because there'd be an ash tree beside his bed. But he'd just aim it because he'd be in the dark. I felt like he was always awake as well. So when I'd sneak in, like I could go on one stairs and he'd be like, Vogue. I'd be like, Oh no.

But that had an impact on his health. Big time. He was always sick. I think as well, writing this book, I feel like I learned a lot about myself and like even with regards to anxiety where that might have come from because I always assumed it had come on in my 20s. But actually writing everything down and like having a dad that was sick all the time because his health was always bad but like he was always in hospital so it was always it wasn't just like something small it would have always been something big. So the first time going into see him in hospital I think I was 11 or 12, and he's just hooked up to all these machines and it's difficult to have that when you're

growing up, but it was kind of all the time, like we were always in and out of hospital with him. So he'd had like a heart issue? He had two heart attacks in two days that time and then he had a triple bypass, he was always having stents in and out of his legs and stuff like that that and then he had a stroke and so there was always something. And do you think that is, I mean it would make sense that that's the sort of route of panic attacks and anxiety? I think that was the, I think that was just because it was such a stress and I probably didn't realise it was such a stress and like it's the unknown really isn't it? So like

we never really knew what was going to happen. And like we're lucky that he lived till the age that he did live. But like the thing about him is he'd never have changed his life. And he he didn't want to. Like he loved life. He was so much fun. He was always the life and soul of the party. He knew everyone everywhere we went. Everyone always knew him.

And I think he just he enjoyed his life the full. I wish he'd had longer. He would have wished he'd had longer. But I mean, he was so he was once caught smoking out the window of the hospital after a heart attack. I'm like, Dad, seriously. So you were in your early 20s. Early 20s when he died. Yeah. And you were filming. I mean, it was the day that this reality show that you were that you had got a part in what was it called Fade Street? Fade Street, yeah.

So that aired on the Thursday night and he died on the Friday morning. You were the kind of next of kin weren't you? My Auntie Sharon's great. She's kind of, I think as well when he died because we're a very close family and I'm very close with everyone on my mom's side as well. Like we're just always around each other. We love spending time with each other. Like I love spending as much everyone on my mom's side as well. We're just always around each other. We love spending time with each other. I love spending as much time with my mom as I can.

But my Auntie Sharon, I felt like when my dad died, because it's so much further away, like all my other answer and hope and stuff like that, where I live and I was, that was a concern that maybe we wouldn't be as close anymore, but she just kind of held the family together. She's always organizing different things for the family. And she just kind of held the family together. She's always organizing different things for the family and she very much took control of the funeral. I wouldn't have known what to do. Before he died, you know, he'd obviously been quite unwell and you having to go into the

hospital and there were just, you know, decisions about operations and things like that. Yeah, his final operation definitely was so we're all sitting in there, me, my sister, my auntie and his brother and him and we're sitting there and he basically, he could have had the operation, but there was a, it was very low. It was like a 50-50 chance. It was a very dangerous operation because of his health otherwise. But if he hadn't have had the operation, he had an aneurysm in his stomach. And if that burst, we were basically told it would be a really painful, awful death

and it could happen when he's on his own. So we just didn't want that. But that's a lot to have to deal with in your early 20s. Yeah, yeah. Well it was. It was a lot to have to deal with actually at any age. Yeah, but I suppose because we'd had so much of that kind of stuff where he, there was something I wrote in the book about when he nearly lost his leg and having to make decisions

around that. And there was always kind of something. But like, I actually always just feel sorry for him because he just his leg was always Adam. His leg was always painful because the circulation was so bad. And I think as difficult as it was for us, it was way worse for him. Reading about your anxiety towards the end of the book, it kind of. And I think this sounds like such a weird thing to say, given like I do, like I talk about mental health so often and I know how it works. Yeah. And it isn't obvious. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But I do, that was another thing

that really related to it, like I found really relatable was that obviously a lot of, you know, you feel sort of in terror quite a lot of the time and And yet you wouldn't know it to meet you. And I get that a lot of time where people, when I tell them I wake up and my first thought is kind of like, oh my God, Bryony, go back to bed. Everyone hates you. Everything you're supposed to do today is like, you know, you shouldn't do it.

You know, like my brain is just like, eh, eh, eh. I feel like, really? And you talk so sort of eloquently about anxiety and panic attacks. It's just like the only way to describe it is it's so annoying, isn't it? It's just this thing in your life that you're just like, just go away. And it just it's sometimes it's fine. Sometimes it's a lot worse. But I kind of like I wake up and I just like I'm really conscious of of any mood

I could be in. To be honest, I'm quite I'm usually quite good in the morning. But that's why I don't really drink very much now, because that's something for me. That's a huge trigger with them, with my anxiety. And that's why I try to like I don't really like drinking to excess anymore. I don't like going to bed late because that really fires it up. And I do try and think of things like running is great for me with anxiety. Riding was so nice for me with anxiety. It was so nice because it just calmed me, my dog's at my feet and just being in the

moment of just focusing on one thing. But I find it, the annoying thing about it is it's not something you can get rid of. I think it's just something that you manage from day to day. Like I don't actually currently take tablets for it, but I'll always have them. Like I always have them in the press at home. Like beta blockers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So I'll always have them in the cupboard, but I don't always take them. So it's kind of rare at the moment now. It depends what's happening in my life, really. And it's not usually to do with things that are it's kind of the outside noise of my job, really. And it's to do with kind of other people that stress me out a little bit like that. But I think I've got a really like my family. You'll read it in the book. They're just so important to me, all of them.

And they're just my friends are so important to me. I've friends since I was like my best friends of the girls since I was 12 and I have a good group of people around me. I'm very careful of who I spend my time with now because you can kind of see through certain people. I don't know if you have it, but in this industry, like certain people are just very much out for themselves. And even the way they portray themselves isn't true. It's not actually who they are. Yeah. And like I see it and I'm like, that is bullshit. But like miles off.

Yeah. But not everyone else does. And that can be like, no, not everyone else does. But like everyone should just be whoever they feel like they want to be or whatever. I just kind of steer clear of it now. But you know, you speaking and speaking of this, like I can see how the world we live in now, which is very kind of like social media and people talk absolute bollocks the whole time and sort of gossip and you know, and you and Spencer have become this like love, you know, like

I think one of the lovely things and when I interviewed him last year when he did the 30 marathons in 30 days in the Sahara, it was like, what I think people get behind is seeing that sort of journey of people that have perhaps been a little bit lost, you know, and I think definitely you also kind of, you know, like the sort of slightly crazy, you know, like, and then you kind of came together and you've created this quite lovely life and I think we kind of love it. But what does come with that is like the sort of shifts in the noise and the made up bollocks. Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, I think that we live in a world now where it's possible for people to just literally anybody, any random person can just have a thought in their head and say, I'm going to say that about that person and I'm going to push that around and I'm

going to try and make that a thing. And it's like what you do, you just bat off constant rumors and crap that you know isn't true or do you just let it go over your head? And we just take the route mainly of just letting it go over our head because I heard something the other day and I was like, and it was about this guy and I, it was my third time meeting him. Like I'd know his partner a little bit. It was my third time meeting him. And he kind of did that thing where like, you know, when someone doesn't really want to say hello to you, but like, I like, I didn't really either because I didn't know him, but then we caught

eyes. We had to. And then I heard something that he'd been saying about me and I'm like, where would I have met? And when I say I've met him, I've met him to say hello. And I'm like, and now he's probably going around saying that to loads of people like it's gospel. Yeah, he's he doesn't know anything about me, like nothing. And I just find it like you have that whole be kind thing. And it's just it fascinates me that that no one no one wants wants that people just like. I actually have a lovely Instagram following, I have to say. That's why I love, like it's so supportive and so nice. And even with like,

I did a front cover of something that I was like really happy with the other day. Oh my God. Yeah. The Times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just everyone just being so nice and supportive and really good around that. And even people with my book just being really nice. So it just makes me that. And even people with my book and just being really nice. So it just makes me feel like at least I have a really great group of people around. There's always going to be people that like want to spread rumors, spread gossip, spread anything about anyone, and you just have to leave them to it. Like I tell this story on mine and Joanne's

podcast about this girl and I know her at home and she's an influencer. And basically she spent a year trying to find out who a certain group of people were that were like attacking her and abusing her really badly online. And she found them. She found four of them, four women. And she was like, if you don't come and meet me, I'm going to hate you and say that you're the ones that have been writing all this stuff. And they went and meet her and they were going to hate you and say that you're the ones that have been writing all this stuff.

And they went and meet her and they were all crying and really sorry about it. And they're with their husbands and they've got these really good jobs and stuff like just like they're not just sitting at home. One of them had 14 accounts. So she was writing one thing about her and then responding off another account and responding off another account. So it looked like this group of people were chatting about it, but it was actually one person. And when I heard that, I was like, whoa, like that's actually what some of it is. So you just have to ignore it and be like, you know what, I'm actually like, I have a great family. I'm happy at the moment and

I don't need to be worried about what anyone else is saying. No, I agree. And I think also the great thing about this book is that there is such honesty in it and you are you just go there. You just fucking go there. I think you don't like you don't throw anyone onto the bus. No, I don't. That's really crucial. Like, and I think that's really lovely.

You're quite like, I understand this person right. I mean, there is there's some good stories. Yeah. Everyone's like, who's that? I'm like, I'm not telling you. Oh, my God. I definitely was like, I need to ask about who the winder is. The winder. Oh, I can't tell you. I actually couldn't. It's too embarrassing. Can we talk about because you are very honest about men and you're very funny. You're like, I'm quite frigid. I've never read the word frigid in a book so much. A frigid, that was kind of the word that you were called when you were younger. Like you

could either be a frigid or a slut and they were the worst things you could be. Yeah, there's nothing in between. No, nothing in between. But yeah, I think I've realized as well, I was just always relationship girl. It just wasn't intentional. It never was intentional, but I just kind of like I had a really long term relationship before I got married, like six and a half years. And then I got married and that was probably not that long, four years maybe. And then like that's quite long. Yeah, I know. But then after that, I was trying to like, I wanted to go and like, be worldly and like

live my life and go out and loads of dates. And it just didn't happen because it's the opposite of frigid, be the opposite of frigid, like get out there. And I know it just didn't happen. I ended up meeting somebody. And we kind of were privately dating for quite a while. And then and then I met Spencer. What you talk about in the book is that a therapist pointed out to you that you definitely have a type.

Yeah. Okay. And this is like, this is not, and the type isn't your dad, like that sounds a bit weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we do all marry our parents, that's what they say. I remember when a therapist said that to me, I was like, that is gross. Yeah. And then when I looked at it and I went oh my god I've married my dad. But you also turn into your parents like even my mom will text me sometimes she's like look you're like me and I'm like I know I can't stop but it's getting worse. But you definitely had a type of a man that like

also liked was fond of a drink. Fond of a drink, kind of needed like a bit of organization to their lives. Needed to be looked after. Needed to be kind of looked after, a bit of a messer. And like I remember my therapist being like, like, well we talk now about your, and I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, how do you not know? And I was like, I just don't know. And he was like, you go for the same kind of person. And it was interesting for me to see, but obviously then when I met Spencer, like I was, I knew that I shouldn't go for him, but like I actually, I based that on not knowing him.

So I based that off what other people had told you. I based that off what other people had said about him. And you should really never do that because I remember meeting Spencer and like you've met him. Like he's just, you just kind of are drawn to him. want to be in his company he's really funny he's really self deprecating he's quite Irish in that sense like like we like each other all the time but in a nice way but I remember when we do our podcast people like why is she so mean to him and I'm like I'm not we're just having fun with each other.

That's how I show him I love him. Yes and but when I met him I saw I did base that off him, but I also knew that probably, like he was quite young. I didn't realise he was that young when we met. Is he younger than you? Yeah, he's 36. So he's like a toy boy? Yeah, he's my little toy boy. How old are you?

I'm 40 this year. Happy birthday! When is the big 4-0? October, especially. He's been telling me I've been 40 since last year because he's like, well, and how's your 40th year? And I'm like, I'm 39. Let me have it till October. What are you gonna do for your 40th? Have you decided yet?

Yeah, because I was gonna do nothing. And then I went to my friend's 40th and he did something in his house where he just had someone over making cocktails and some food and I thought, I'm gonna do that but I'm going to get like really fun entertainment like a cool like I've got Davina Devine. She's a drag queen that did our tour with us for Therapist with me and Joanne and I'm going to get her to come and my friends as a singer and then I'm going to try and get

like a really fun big name to do something. It's only going to be my back garden but still. Love it. Yeah I'm just going to invite literally everybody. You've got to mark these moments as well. Yeah. And I think I'm excited about it because remember like, remember being like 19 or 20, you think that four year olds were just really old and battered. But then when you actually get to it, you're like, this is a really nice moment. I think in your thirties, you're trying to figure stuff out a little bit more because I remember I was divorced at 31 and I was like basically that's it I've ruined my life. I'm never going to have kids. I'm never going to do what I always wanted to do and then you see how

your life actually starts to unfold and that's why I think it's exciting to move into your 40s. I'm a few years into my 40s now. I'll be 45 this year and it definitely gets better and better and better. I'm absolutely terrified of death. I am. It's one of my things that I used to have to go to therapy about because I was so like, it just was on my mind all the time and it's coming for all of us, which freaks me out. We're all just walking around like nothing's happening. But I think that like, it's a pleasure to be able to get older and to enjoy your life. And I think that there's loads of exciting things to come.

My kids are growing up. Otto's not even in a buggy anymore. And just watching them and just, your life kind of becomes about wanting them to be happy and to shape them. And I'm excited for all of that. Do you think you'll have another one? Because you talk about going for number four.

I know it's just, no I was, it was a tough old day yesterday. So I'm like, I love kids. I love the chaos. I think that if people came around to my house between five and seven, they'd be like, what is this? Like it's just madness with the three of them and getting them to bed, dinner, bath time, all that kind of stuff. But I love it. I love kids.

And I suppose because I'm like a family of four, I kind of always had it into my head that I wanted for. I don't know. I'd say if it happens, it happens. If it didn't, it didn't. You know what I mean? I'm very happy with with the three that I have and they're all hilarious and just so different and funny. And Otto's just ruling the house at the moment. But I'd never say never. OK. Because I just can't make up my mind. I nearly got away. I nearly got rid of all the baby stuff

in December. Nearly. I was offering up my monitors and all that kind of stuff. And then I was like, I might just wait. I'll wait until the summer. I still have, like, I only had one child, right? And that's done. Those doors are shut, right? But I still have the baby clothes in the basement. Because I'm like, oh, and what, what? What am I going to adopt a baby?

Do you know what I mean? But it's nice for her to have it. I don't know, maybe for when I become a grandmother, she could make me a grandmother in like six years time. Back to you, Spenny. I'm sure your editor said to you, so maybe we need to talk about the future, like what are the plans for the future? Like we need that last chapter. Yeah. And you went, okay, then fine. And you did this whole like, you've done this whole fantasy

of how the end of your life is gonna look. Could you just? The fantasy five year plan. I don't wanna like a fantasy five year plan. So could you just talk us through the fantasy future plan? Well, the thing about the fantasy five year plan as well is because I want to go into fiction writing now So that was kind of like my little like I was able to do that because I've always wanted to do fiction writing

Whoever your publisher are Harper Collins, I hope they have like signed you up What did I have at the very start? For the fiction Listen it starts with Spencer deciding he's gay I know So it starts with Spencer deciding he's gay and moving to Manhattan to marry his handsome male lover Toby. Toby? Fantasy, yeah, planning into the future is a bit... some people... hang on, let me see, where's the bit about poor Spencer? This is the bit I'm worrying about. And he hasn't

even read this, so like he's like, why are you saying I'm gay? Where does this say, the fantasy future starts right here I assume at some point my husband will come out as gay and then we really will be best friends. He's your toy boy. What I love when you write about him is you talk about how he one of the things that you loved about him immediately was how wild he was about himself. Oh, I just think we should all be a bit more Spencer in that sense, honestly. I totally agree. Talk us through the wild, like talk about how he's just really happy in his own skin. He's his own biggest cheerleader. And it's actually such I'm like, you know, when someone's

like, what would you change about yourself? And I'm like, okay when someone's like what would you change about yourself and I'm like okay let's go I have this whole list of things it's like spending what would you change about yourself he's like nothing I think he's just like even when I'm like okay if he could swap your body one famous person who would it be and he's like no one I'm like what not even like Tom Cruise for the day or something see what he gets up to he's no interest at all he just likes being himself but he's also not scared of dying either, which I find weird. He's like, no, I'm happy to go in my seventies. I'm like, seventies? I'm staying around until I'm like 120. I'll have improvements by then.

I mean, I hope that you stay around for a lot longer because this- We'll go for a runs and tops. Oh my god. A run or six thirty runs. But but you'll have to slow it down. I'm happy to do that. I mean, maybe just some walk. Maybe just go for a walk. We're going over trots.

We're a run walk. We'll go for a run walk. I love that. We'll go for a recovery run. Yeah. A huge thank you to my new BFF, that's best friend forever, Vogue Williams. I'm off for a walk run with her. Why don't you go and do the same, maybe while listening to the audiobook of Big Mouth, which is out this week. And if you enjoyed this episode, please

pass it on to someone else who might need to hear it. Take care of yourself, and I'll see you next time. And this is Alas, Byron and Hitchens asking all the questions this week. The death penalty and holidays, arguably a fate worse than death. Oh, come on. Don't let this get carried away. Do please join us wherever you get to your podcasts. Thank you. If you liked this episode, we think you'll love this. I'm David Patrick Karakos and on this week's episode of Apocalypse Now, as Donald Trump heads to Doha, we discuss Qatar, a small state at the center of a world increasingly ridden

with faction and conflict. Listen to Apocalypse Now wherever you get your podcasts.