The Liz Moody Podcast - Advice Ep! Tapping Into Creativity, Dealing With Cheaters, Navigating Coming Out Late In Life & More With Andi Bartz

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

The next episode of our advice series, where every month, I’ll be joined by a new special guest. This month I’m so excited to welcome author Andi Bartz back to the podcast to answer your questions. tips for the book writing process + dealing with roadblocks along the way how to tap into your creativity  Andi’s personal story questioning her sexual identity + coming out late in life where to start if you are questioning your sexual identity what to do when someone you love cheats or doesn’t live up to your values realistic tips for increasing self-confidence & shutting out the noise of society’s expectations how to make couple friends and so much more!  For more from Andi, head to her website www.andreabartz.com, find her on social media at @andibartz, and grab her brand new book The Spare Room today.  To join the Healthier Together Podcast Club Facebook group, go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/healthiertogetherpodcast. Grab your jar of strawberry black pepper nut butter today at grounduppdx.com and use my code LIZ30 for 30% off any order placed before 6/30.  This episode is sponsored by: Kion Aminos: save 20% on monthly deliveries and 10% on one-time purchases by going to getkion.com/LIZMOODY.  AG1: visit AG1.com/healthiertogether and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the healthier together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and longtime journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're uncovering the most effective hacks for productivity, learning how to overcome fear of flying, or identifying the best foods to eat for longevity. And yes, those are all real episodes. So if any of those topics sound good to you, scroll on back in the archives. We are back today with another advice episode where every single month I'm joined by

very special guest and we answer all of your questions. If you haven't listened to last month's advice episode yet, I did it with Zach, my husband. It is so good. We share tons of juicy details about our own relationship, including how much my engagement ring costs, how we knew we found the one and so much more. You can always send any questions that you want answered to ask at lizmoody.com or I'll be taking questions on Instagram the last week or so of every month, so be on the look out for that. Today, I am so excited to welcome my friend Andy Barts to the podcast. Andy is the author of the New York Times bestseller and Reese's book club pick We Were Never Here, as well as The Herd, The Lost Night, and most recently her incredible brand new book,

The Spare Room, which just came into the world last week. You can find it wherever books are sold. Andy is an amazing writer and contemplator analyzer, really, of the human condition. And her advice today is so good. into tips for the book writing process and dealing with roadblocks along the way, how to tap into your creativity, Andy's personal story questioning her sexual identity and coming out late in life, where to start if you're questioning your own sexual identity, what to do when someone you love cheats or doesn't live up to your values, realistic tips for increasing self-confidence and shutting out the noise of society's expectations, how to make couple friends

and so much more. As always, we would both love to hear your thoughts. on our advice and your takes as you're listening. So definitely screenshot and tag us on Instagram. I am at Liz Moody and Andy is at Andy Bart's. Andy is with an eye. And if you love this conversation or a piece of Andy's wonderful advice really resonates with you, please share it with a friend or family member or anyone in your life that you think would benefit. Sharing is the best way to support the podcast and you all asked such interesting questions. So I think this episode will help so many people, whether they're looking to be more creative or questioning what their life should look like or more. Okay, let's get right into it with Andy Barts.

Andy, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you back on. I loved the first episode that we did together. Oh, so did I. Thank you so much for having me again. Your podcast is one of my favorite. So this is such a treat. Thank you. Okay, we have some really, really good advice episode questions today. These are from listeners. They're very juicy. I'm excited to hear what you think. We run Again, we have a lot of different creativity stuff, a lot of different relationships stuff, some family stuff. So I'm excited. Let's just jump into it. First one, how do you actually write a novel? I want to try and I would love the nitty gritty details, everything from schedule, how to decide when to step away from a story in progress versus keeping on going. Any tips?

Oh my goodness. That was like six great questions packed into one. We could talk about it as micro or as macro as you want. If you want to write a novel, the very first and most important step is to actually write it. People often come to me and they're like, I have an idea. Should I go get an agent? Or like, I have an idea, but what if it's not, you know, a trendy topic in a couple years when I'm done? And I'm like, all of that is just distraction. The very first thing you need to do is like put your butt in a seat and your fingers on a keyboard and write. A lot of authors work with like daily word count goals. So some people do like 500 words a day. that's like a pretty typical amount for me.

If you do that, you'll be done with an entire draft in something like, well, if the book's about 90,000 words, I'm not great at math, but that's 180 days, right? Which is really not that long. People think of it as, oh, this has to take me six years. And like, no, the really shitty first draft can not take that long. So in terms of structuring a novel, you have a story that makes sense and works and that you can sell. I recommend people go out and buy a book that helps them plot their book to a beat sheet. So the one that I use is called Save the Cat writes a novel. Weird name, don't worry about it.

Other people use ones like story engineering I know is one, one is story genius, one is called superstructure. They're all kind of different ways of approaching the same thing. They basically lay out the way that a story works, whether that story is a short story or a or a movie or anything else that's like a fictional story. You need a character who's going to do X, Y, and Z. This is sort of how far into the story different things should happen. This is what your midpoint needs to do. So having that in mind is just really useful when you're figuring out

what journey you want to send your character on and what you kind of want to say with this book. And that doesn't mean that you need to have an outline and you need to have the entire thing plotted out because I absolutely don't. I just jump in with an idea and start writing and see where it takes. makes me, that's totally valid too. But for me, it's really helpful to know, like, okay, I'm getting to the end of the second act. And when I get to the end of the second act, this functionally needs to happen, even if I don't know quite how or what is going to go on in the pages of my manuscript. I think there's something really scary about saying, oh, I'm going to write about this topic now,

but in two weeks, in two years, it's not going to be relevant anymore. You do an interesting mix in your books of doing stuff that feels trendy and of the moment, but also doesn't feel like it's a flash in the pan. How do you navigate that? That's such an interesting question because Liz, I know you from our days as pure journalist. And like, as journalists, we hate doing anything on spec. We hate writing anything that doesn't have somebody waiting for it on the other end. And I think writing a book has to be different. Now, this is not to say that writing your manuscript is a hobby. I think it's actually kind of offensive when people are like, oh, any creative endeavor is just like a cute thing you do on the side while like your husband supports you or something.

Not saying that at all. If you want to write fiction, the only way to get there pretty much with a few, I guess, exceptions, is to write the entire thing. And so you have to find a way to find joy in it. There has to be something that you want to say and it's going to be interesting or challenging or exciting or pleasurable for you in some way to wrestle with it on the page. And so for me personally, I am really interested in complicated relationships specifically between women. I have a lot of feelings about it and thoughts about it.

I've always been kind of an observer. I've always been interested in psychology. I was one of those kids in high school who had like plenty of friends but wasn't part of a click. I was always like a little bit on the outside look again, which I think is something that a lot of authors have in common. So for every book, I have settled on some issue that I know I have complicated feelings about in some way. With we were never here, for example, it was like, huh, how are we supposed to deal with the fact that women who travel on their own are more likely to get attacked? We're telling them what to do for their own safety. But like, what is that?

Aren't we sort of trying to keep them from exploring the world? Isn't the responsibility actually on men, but women should be careful when they're traveling. I knew that I had complicated feelings about it. And so I explored that over the course of 300 pages or with the herd. It's this murder mystery in a bougie, exclusive, all-female co-working space. And like, how do I feel about commercialized feminism and girl boss culture and all that? Like, I really have a lot of feelings that are hard for me to pin down. And so for me, it's really fun to be exploring that.

And then, of course, with the spare room, I had so many of my own feelings about coming out as queer late in life and just completely rejiggering and like re-debueing your identity much later than you thought you ever would and how vulnerable and scary that is, but how exciting it is. So I think there needs to be some beating heart to an idea. And you might not even know it right away. You might just have a really fun plot idea. But as you start to write this sort of burning, beating heart should appear that keeps you going, even on the days that it's hard and even on the days that you're like, I cannot believe how many hours I've put into this. And it's still months or years before I will see a penny for it if I ever do. There needs to be some sense of gratification

from it. And there needs to be something pushing you that feels interesting and timely because if it is fascinating to you and if it has this like why now answer for you, it's very likely that in some way that's going to resonate with other people. Have you gotten any clarity on any of those questions from your books? Do you feel like you have more defined opinions on any of these things as a result of writing the novels that you've written? I don't know that I ever come away with an answer of like commercialized feminism is bad or good. I know going in, I'm not expecting a black or right answer, but the process of writing always sort of exposes me to surprising insights that I didn't really think about beforehand, that it wasn't until I was writing or a character said it or my narrator thought it

that I kind of went, huh, I never thought about the fact that X, Y, and Z with the spare room, I never thought about the fact that we were so freaking busy before the pandemic that, like, so many of us didn't even get a chance to look in the mirror and think about our lives and, like, make sure that we were on the path that we wanted to be on. And seeing my character go through it was really enlightening for the elements that had led to me really shaking up my life early in lockdown. Interesting. And then is there anything about the publishing process or having a book in the world that you found surprising or that you think would surprise people? I feel like a lot of it is really shrouded and mystery. And it's a lot different than I thought it would be, certainly. I would love to hear your answer on this as well. But for me, I had this idea that people who are full-time novelists, which I pretty much am now and I feel very fortunate for that. I had this idea. Yeah, that like they just romantically were spinning stories and gazing out at the ocean while they

wrote their books. And it was just this like really pleasant experience every day. And to be fair, I am not at all complaining or trying to express a lack of gratitude. I'm super lucky that I get to do this. But it's still a job and it sucks a lot of the time. It can be really hard. And it can be hard on all these different levels. It can be hard when you're in writing mode and you just like cannot freaking figure out what this story is trying to do and it's just not working and not coming together. And it can be so frustrating, as you know, when you're interacting with your publishing team and there's these other people who supposedly we're all in the same team of like getting a book that we all love and that's going to make them tons of money too, but can really feel like,

oh my God, nobody else gets this book or like nobody cares as much as I do. And like, are they gaslighting me? What is going on? So a lot of the elements of it are just not nearly as romantic and sort of serene and lovely as I pictured them being. And then also, and I will say again, I really do not want to sound not grateful, but with my last book, we were never here. It was my third thriller and it was the first one that really broke out. It was a Rhesus book club pick. And so because of that, more people picked it up by a factor of 10 than any of my earlier books. And I had always thought before I started writing, while I was working on my first three books, when they were first going out in the world,

it was like, if I could just hit the New York Times bestseller list, then I'll know I've made it. If I could just become a celebrity co-pick, then everything will change. And things did change in the sense of like, I'm in a different financial situation. I'm in a different power situation with my publishing team. Stuff like that did change. But it was really a little sad, but mostly very, very liberating to realize, like, oh, it can happen and then like life just goes on. The next day, it is just as hard to write a book.

The loved ones that I really thought that like this is the thing that they would finally give me validation over didn't. Didn't change. It's not going to change. And there was just something so liberating to be like, oh, I am going to find pleasure in the writing itself, even when it's hard. And I'm just going to stop moving the goalposts and just accept like there's never going be a moment that I'm like, oh, I'm on top of the mountain now and I can relax. It's just

what I'm going to keep doing. And I'm going to keep writing books that I care about and that I'm proud of. And the other stuff is out of my hands. Do you think there's any way for somebody listening to manufacture a similar moment for themselves? I think a lot of us have this feeling of like, if I get here, then it'll be enough, then I'll be loved, then I'll be affirmed in the way I want. And you had this shattering moment of that. And I'm curious if there's any advice you'd give to somebody who wanted to experience that shattering themselves? One important thing is trying to find a way to talk to people, whether that's directly talking to them or, you know, listening to them on podcasts or whatever, but talking to people

who are in the position that you are sort of envying because as long as they're able to be real about it, it can be really enlightening to see like, oh, I thought their life was perfect because they have X, Y, and Z happening. And hearing them talk, I'm recognizing that they have still some of the same problems I do. That doesn't mean I'm not envious anymore. And certainly on your podcast, we've talked about how envy can be such a good motivator and indicator of what we want and what we want to go after.

But I think listening to other people who have done it and who you envy and just sort of recognizing like the humanity and all of them and how they're not so high above us, they're also just people who deal with some of the same struggles is one thing. And then also things. thinking about how you, wherever you are, are probably that person to someone else. I'm going to keep talking about writing books because it's low-hanging fruit, but whatever that endeavor is, when you think about people, think about yourself years ago before you even started

working on something or people who have started three different novels but haven't even been able to get through a couple chapters. And now here you are, you're midway through or you're querying agents. And yes, you're getting rejection. And that's really hard. But like, think about how you must look to the people who are holding you up in that regard and just putting it all into perspective. We are all just humans working on things that we care about. None of those external things that we really want to cling to will make the difference that we want them to. It all ultimately has to come from inside. And then this sounds cliche, but just celebrating the wins as they come. Emailing, texting your closest, most supportive friends and being like, hey guys, I wrote the

end today. Like, I have so much more work to do before I can actually show this manuscript to anyone. But like, can we all go out for drinks? I'm super excited and then pick the friends who are going to toast you and who are going to make a big deal out of it, just celebrating the little wins because it's really easy to sort of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that, nope, that's just a step on the way to the top of the mountain. And it's a really easy way to never reach the top of the mountain. I also think that the more that we can train ourselves to celebrate internal wins versus external wins, the better off will be in life in general because the external wins, even if they happen, they feel really fleeting. And then also they're not in your control at

all if they happen. Truly. Yeah. I mean, it was absurd of me to hitch any life satisfaction to being a New York Times bestseller because that's not a thing I can actually control. I can try to write a good book, but lots of people write really good books that never become bestsellers. Yeah, for sure. The other thing I think is really interesting about your journey you mentioned is that your third book was kind of your breakout hit book. I think for a lot of people, when they embark on creative projects, if they do something and it doesn't get the reception that they wanted or were dreaming of, it can be an impetus to not do another creative project again. So I'm curious after your first two books were published or even your first one, did you need to talk yourself

into writing a second? Did you need to talk yourself into writing a third? How did you not get discouraged? It's such a great question. I was in this Facebook group of other debut authors who had their debuts come out in 2019. And it's so interesting now because there's some of us who just kept writing no matter what happened. And then there were other people who got so discouraged when their debut didn't take off the way that they hoped it would. And they're just still working on the second or they started to write something and then they scrapped it or they are just trying to find their footing again. And I am very much of the mentality that like if you want to make it in this biz, you have to just keep pulling lottery tickets until you pull a winning one. So I mean,

in my case, I wrote the loss night before I had an agent and then I got a book deal for it. And then I specifically told my agent, like, I want to be doing this full time. What do we need to do to make this my career and to work towards that? And she said, okay, well, for commercial fiction like you write, the best thing we can do at this point is to have you put out a book a year, one book every year in the same season. And then your readers will follow you. They won't forget about you in between. And I'll stress, is this the only way to do it? Absolutely not. It was just I was a freelance writer at the time. So I kind of had some flexibility and could focus on it. And so I was like, okay, yeah, I'm down. Let's do it. So I started pitching ideas for my second book before the

Lost Night even came out because I wanted to have it locked and loaded and be able to start working, like hit the ground running with it. And then to your point, my second book, The Herd, it got a lot of press. It was on a lot of lists. I was so excited for it. I was like, this is the thing. Like, this is the book that's going to take off. And it came out, I think it was March 23rd or 26th, 2020? Literally the week that like bookstores closed down. Non-essential business is closed. If you had pre-ordered from them, they were like, sorry, here's your money back. Like, you're not getting it. Or worse, mail was so messed up that they were like, you'll get it eventually. And people got their books like three months later, but like the world had moved on. I think we forget

how like messed up everything. Because my first thought was like, well, everybody was home. So it'd be a good time to read. But then I'm like, oh my gosh, the mail was so messed up. Also, I was pretty much drunk for the first three months, I feel like, too. And I was keeping the weirdest hours. And it was a crazy time. And I think we almost forget how crazy it was. Yeah, I like couldn't read for a while. I was just so sort of anxious. And I think a lot of people were in this boat. Like, it took a while before I could just sit down and enjoy a nice book again. I mean, I wish I'd been like making sourdough and learning Italian. But that was not the case to me. Zach was drunk and making sourdough. He did like both perspectives. It was nice because then we got to eat the bread.

That's great. He did the high-low. You got to have tipsy bread. Yeah, tipsy bread is perfect. Yeah, so that was not the experience that you hope for. It was not at all. It was just such a crash and burn. This book came out with a whimper instead of a bang, and it sucked. And I couldn't even celebrate with other people or commiserate with other people or any of those things. We were all just like in our little silos with our doors locked going crazy together. And I at that point had already pitched my next book. So it was like, okay, I guess I'm going to keep working on this because, again, I pitched it before this one even came out so that I could keep on the schedule of a book a year. And I could have pulled it. I could have demanded another year to work on it because I was feeling

so depressed from the early days of the pandemic. This might not be true of everyone. But for me, there's something really kind of soothing about being like, I am in a rhythm. And if a book does badly, I'm going to write another book. If a book does really well, I'm going to write another book. And I'm just going to continue, keep treating this like it's my job and keep reminding myself how lucky I am that I get to continue doing it. And, you know, maybe that takes away a little bit from the high of the highs, but it also really, I think, cushioned the low of the lows with this crazy business. Yeah, I love the idea of to buffer yourself against the reception of a project to always kind of already be on to the next project. And if you're celebrating all your

wins along the way, the win of the publication or the debut of the painting or the sharing of the song or any of that actually shouldn't be the main win you're celebrating. So you're not kind of missing out on that moment because you're celebrating all of the production wins along the way. Okay, I have one more question about this. And then we're going to get into a lot of sexual identity stuff, which I got a zillion questions on and some cheating stuff and lots of fun stuff. But if somebody listening was like, I have all of this creativity inside of me, but I don't know how to channel it. I don't know how to let it out. I know I'm a creative person, but I don't know how to get in touch with that. Is there a tip that you could leave them with? I want to give this person a hug. I just love that they recognize

this creativity because I kind of think everyone's creative. I think we all have ways that our brains work, that are different from other people. And, like, as humans, we're creative, we're generative. So whether that's, like, creating beautiful code, which we think of as very, like, left-brained and not creative, or whether that's engaging in the arts, which is what we think of as more creative. I just think everyone has creativity. And I love that this person has this sort of zest and this recognition of it and this, like, eagerness to have it come bursting out.

The thing that comes to mind is journaling and free writing, which maybe is because writing is why one and a skill, like truly Liz, I don't have any other skills. But I do think there's something very powerful about the act of sitting and just like letting your brain run free and even expressing what they started to write in this question. I know that I'm a creative person. Here's why I feel afraid to explore X. You know, I'm not that good with a paintbrush. I guess I could try drawing. Like what about cooking? What about coding? What about like needle point? Sort of. working through all those things because there is something about the act of writing, whether for you that's in a notepad or in a Google Doc or whatever, there's something about

that act of actually writing it that shuts off the other parts of your brain and really quiets the parts of you that want to argue against it, that want to hold you back, that feel afraid of putting yourself out there that say, no, no, no, your identity is this, it's not that. You're not an artist. There is something about physically engaging with writing that shuts that stuff down. And if writing is not for you, maybe you are doodling and writing down words that come to you, or maybe there's like another way that you can kind of sort it out with a physical medium. I mean, clay, I don't know, whatever was kind of calling out to you. But I think I would just go deep on that question. Like, what makes me feel like I don't have a medium that's

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costumes and all of the stuff and the invitations. And that's her creative outlet. And I think when we begin to say, like, what is my creative outlet? And there are so many valid ones, it's so permission giving. Absolutely. It's so incorrect to only narrowly think of like the arts as true creative endeavors. There's so many. A hundred percent. Okay. So many questions about questioning your sexual identity, especially later in life. Can you just start us off by telling us about your story? Early in the lockdown, while you were drunk and having sourdough, I was alone with my cat in a 380 square foot studio apartment where they were still for some reason able to do construction and they were jackhammering into our balconies.

I was losing my mind and one of the few bright spots was that I was just talking to all sorts of random people. I think the way that a lot of us were, like you heard from people from your past, you connect with someone on Instagram. And somebody that I reconnected with was a friend that I went to high school with. And we had been very close in high school. And then it just sort of lost touch other than Instagram and lived in different places. And she reached out because she'd actually read my books.

And she was super awesome a decade plus later. And so we were chatting a lot the way that so many of us were having weird conversations early in lockdown. And it got to the point where I was like, I think I need to get out of here. I was exploring several options. I was like, could I somehow rent a car and drive all the way to Wisconsin where I'm from? Like, could I, I was trying to stay with an uncle. Like, that wasn't going to work out. And this friend that was living in the suburbs of D.C.

With her husband and toddler. And she very kindly was like, just come, stay with us. Come, we have a spare room. We have this big house. We have a pool. This was like summer now. We have a pool. So after really making sure she really meant it,

I packed my little cat into a carrier and got on the Amtrak with two masks and like gloves. and gloves and like terrified breathing the air with other people. And I went down with a one-way ticket, thinking I would stay for at least a few weeks to make it worth like dragging my poor cat there. And I ended up staying for four and a half months. Needless to say, it went really well. We got along great. I at the same time was starting to see my therapist over this cookie new app called Zoom

for the first time. And I was crying to her one week. because I was 34 and I said, like, Karen, I really thought this was the year that I was going to double down and I was going to meet my person. And my clock is ticking and I was going to meet my person and like start that next stage of my life. And I did not plan to put me seeking on hold for a global pandemic. That was not in my plans. And it felt like a really lonely kind of sadness too because it wasn't about me personally losing a person. person to COVID. It wasn't about the parents who were like losing their minds with the homeschooling

and with the remote learning and all of that. It wasn't about going through a divorce. I felt like other people had it so much worse. But it felt really sad to me that life was put on hold at this really critical window. This was like summer 2020 when stuff was starting to open up a little bit and we realized you could like be six feet away from other people. You could be outside, all that. And she was like, you know, you're 15 minutes from a big city. You're right outside of D.C. Like, why don't you just go on some dates? And if nothing else, it'll give us some fodder for therapy. She was probably really bored of talking to me. So I open up the apps. I reinstalled the apps. And one of the first things they ask is interested in men, women, or both. And in the past,

I've always considered myself straight. All of my relationships have been with men. But there had been one or two other times that I'd like turned on women and then I turned it back off because I was just like, I don't want to waste someone else's time. I don't want anyone else to feel like I'm like experimenting with them. I just got scared and ran away from it. So here I am outside of D.C. I like don't even live there. I can put that in my profile. I'm still paying rent in New York City. So I was like, what the hell? I'm doing it. And started chatting with people and I went on exactly one date in D.C. and it was with Julia, who is now my partner of nearly three years. And there was something about the fact that I was thousands of miles from my conservative Christian upbringing.

I was hundreds of miles from my life in New York where, you know, my friends love me unconditionally and, of course, our, you know, allies and all that. But like, they know me in a certain light. And there was just something about being totally cut off from all the expectations that other people had of me and all of the reflections of that that I put on myself that I was like, whatever, why can't I date a woman? Let's see. It was clearly the best decision ever. And it's really shaken up everything about my identity. I didn't come out. I just sort of started dating Julia and started like sharing photos of us on Instagram and stuff. And like people got the message. I kind of saw. off-launched the whole thing. And because I wasn't actually seeing anyone, I didn't need to be present for anyone's surprise. My parents especially took a little time, I think, to get used to it. But, like, that was time they had and space they had. So it was really nice to be able to take a step back and, like, ask what I wanted my life to be, which I had just been like barreling towards husband, minivan, house, 2.5 kids without even questioning it.

And it was really liberating and freeing and ultimately so rewarding to hit pause and ask, do I want those things for myself? Or did I just sort of accept that as like the mash game prophecy that seemed obvious from the time I was little? I love that. One of my best friends, she's queer. She was married to a man at one point and she's also a therapist. So she has a lot of wisdom and a lot of different perspectives. and she always says that, like, one of the coolest things about being queer, and there's so many,

but because you're questioning your life, you're questioning the path that society is trying to push you on in this one area, that it opens you up to question all of the paths that society is pushing you on, which is an incredibly liberating and powerful way to live life. Oh, I love that. Yeah, there's something about choosing to exist in this liminal space. that means it's so freeing. It's like, well, if I'm shedding that, then why not shed all the other expectations that, like, I thought I cared about, but that I am now realizing we're just coming from the outside and not

from me. Let's get into some of the questions. One of them is, I think I might be attracted to women and I would like to experiment with it, but I'm worried that I'll be bad at it. Do you have any resources for how to be physical with a woman or how do you know where to start? That was absolutely one of my fears, too. I was like, I don't know how to date women. I don't know what to do. I don't know any of those things. I was pretty upfront about it. I didn't put it in my

profile because I felt like that was a little too much. But like, I will tell you, like, absolutely, there will be some women on dating apps who are like card carrying lesbians and have been for a long time and they will not want to date you if you have not dated other women. They will have been burned too often before. They'll say, you don't actually know what you want. They'll say, I'm not here for your experimentation. And it hurt. It hurt me. It is hurtful. But they're absolutely entitled to their own feelings about it. And before the pandemic, something like that would have just sent me straight back out of the closet. I don't know, would have sent me straight back to like the arms of men where I was like, well, at least I know

what to do there. So I again, was very lucky that this was having. happening to me, apart from regular life situation. I was so worried about not knowing how to be around a woman and how it would be different from a friendship and, like, what I know, am I actually attracted to this person, or is there just friend vibes? Because, like, I get along with a lot of women really well. Again, now in retrospect, I'm like, interesting, but I just always wanted to be around women. And weird how I, like, always really liked actresses who all look the same. Anyway, I think it's just trusting yourself and listening to yourself. And like, women are just like men when it comes to, you know, you sit across from them at a table over a mocktail or a cocktail and get to know them and like just see. Like, am I feeling friend vibes or am I feeling these other good vibes? And in terms of hooking up and that kind of thing, like the skills 100% translate. And also like you have the equipment. So it's really nice. not as foreign or as wild of a leap or as intimidating as you may think.

I mean, thinking back to probably the first time that you or many of us, like, encountered a penis for those of us who don't have penises. Oh, my God. I was so freaked out. Right? I just remember, like, a guy,

it was a, you know, consensual situation and whatever, we were all hanging out, sitting there talking. And he was like, do you want to see my penis? And I was like, yeah. I actually am really curious. I've never seen a penis. And he just like pulled his pants down. He pulled it out.

And I was like, what the fuck is that? Like, it's so weird looking. Like, what am I even dealing with here? What is going on? Yeah. So the way that you felt when you first encountered penis and had to like figure out what was going on there and like how men walk around with those things will not happen. It's way, way less foreign.

It is way less surprising. Like you have the parts too. So like you know what you. you like. And I think being good at sex is really not about technical skills or how many like books you've read or things you've watched. I think it's about being sensitive and paying attention and reading the signals of like, oh, like my partner clearly really likes this because of how they're reacting and like they're kind of pulling away or like moving away if I do this. So making sure that your first time is with somebody that you feel comfortable with and that it's like obviously super

I felt more comfortable like telling my now partner at the end of the very first date. Like, just so you know, I want to be upfront that I have historically dated men. And she like kind of laughed. And she's like, yeah, I figured. I presented very straight. Apparently my profile was very, very straight. She knew all of that. And yeah, it was a good experience from the start and way less weird than I thought it would be.

Like, surprisingly not weird. And if you think you, quote unquote, might be attracted to women, go ahead and say, I think you are. It wouldn't necessarily like come out at the gate with like, oh, I'm experimenting. But like, you are exploring the side of you and you're trying to be upfront about it and you're trying to be respectful and kind with the people you're dating regardless of gender, regardless of genitals. And I would just keep reminding yourself of that. This is for you. And you are doing everything that you can by. being honest and upfront about it. And there's no reason to be. There's no reason to deny yourself

this entire element of your identity and personality just because you're a little intimidated. I mean, penises were intimidating too. It was just that we felt like it was more normal to go figure them out. I will also say I've been lucky enough to interview so many of the world's leading sex experts on this podcast. And being good in bed over and over and over, they say, comes down to communication because outside of genitals, person to person, every single person has different preferences, different things they like, different things they don't like, different things you're going to want to explore. And so I would imagine, I've never been in a long term same-sex relationship, but I would imagine that as long as you have the communication there, you have

the foundation you need to build a great sex life. Absolutely. I definitely agree. And this person didn't really specifically ask this. So maybe I'm reading too much of my own experience into it. But I feel like there is an element of what if it turns out I'm straight. And then I've like wasted this person's time. And that held me back for a long time. And it was my therapist who I expressed this to her. And she kind of looked at me and said, so you're afraid that after going out with somebody for a little bit,

you're going to decide that you actually don't want to, you know, continue seeing them. And I was like, uh-huh. And she was like, isn't that just dating? And I was like, whoa. That's such a tricky. And then also you said that you have the part so it's less unfamiliar than you would think. I'm curious because a lot of women that I encounter have shame about their genitals. Like a lot of the dudes I know are like, my dick is amazing.

How can I slip my dick into conversation casually? You know what I mean? They love it. They're so obsessed. But women, I think they're afraid they taste bad. They smell bad. That it looks ugly. That the lips aren't doing the best lip.

thing that they should be doing, et cetera. And I'm curious, one, if that resonates with you at all. And two, if being in a same-sex relationship has changed your relationship with sexuality, with your body, with any sort of shame around those types of things, if it's demystified it and deshamed it in any way. Yeah, that's a great question. I absolutely agree that women are taught to have shame around our, like, perfectly normal genitals. And I know you've had a lot of great experts on talking about that. And men are just given the opposite message of like, yeah, my dick is gold. Like when you said, how do I slip it into a conversation? That's where I thought you were going. Hopefully not that. Hopefully just conversations. Just conversations. So that was definitely

something that I felt before I became sexually active, like with men and that I was concerned about. and hopefully other women who are engaging in sex with great respectful partners are going to have nothing but nice positive feedback from them, which hopefully is helping build up the confidence. Like, he loves it. Don't worry. It was interesting becoming sexually active with a woman because I hadn't encountered other vulvas up close.

And like, I mean, still, I have only encountered one. I have exclusively dated this one woman. But, you know, it's reminding me of how there are resources. is online. There's something called the Labia Library that I remember when I was a health editor. Somebody told me about. You can Google it. I'm sure there's other ones. But like there's ways to just like see in a non-sexual way like other vulvas, which is a really nice reminder that like they truly come in all shapes and forms and they look a lot of different ways. And like that's completely fine and normal. But I think being with a woman, I'm suddenly like, oh, I see what men were

talking about where like, yeah, there's like not weird tastes. There's not anything all that strange. Like certainly no stranger than dealing with penises. It's just honestly like not that different. This really surprised me. I can't believe I'm like saying this in a podcast to so many people. But people have asked me that and I'm like, it's no. If you've been camping and it's been a few days, like, then maybe you're going to be slightly less until giving a blowjob. And if everyone just, you know, showered before a sexy night, then like you're going to be feeling a little differently about it. Like, it's very, very comparable. I think it's given me increased confidence in, like, there's just a whole range of normalness and like nothing inherently gross about anything

deviating from some, like, porn ideal. You said that if you think that you're attracted to women, you probably are. I got a lot of questions from people who are questioning whether they're attracted to women or to people of the same sex, but they're married. They have kids. They have this whole life. And I think here, like, I'm 36 and I've realized I'm at least bisexual while being married to a man and having two kids. and I don't know what to do or where to start. Do you have any thoughts on how to explore that side of yourself without feeling like you're blowing up your entire life?

It's such a great question. And I think it's probably a lot more common than like we let on that we discuss. Women, I mean, a theme of my life, a theme of the spare room, the book is like women are just sort of groomed from the time they're young to like you want to be a mom. and you want to be a wife and you want to be taking care of this home and like that's what will bring you happiness and that's what you should want. And I certainly had internalized that too. I would hope that you're in a situation with your husband where you could potentially feel comfortable bringing it up and thinking about like what's the way to bring it up that is going to feel the least intimidating to him. And maybe in this case, if you know that you do want to stay

married and you love your life with this person and you are really happy with this family that you've created together in this life you've created together. Like absolutely lead with that. Hit that point home. Hammer that point home as often as you need to in bringing this up. But just admit, I listened to this podcast and it really got me thinking about something I've like kind of been wanting to say for a long time because the answer could really surprise you. like there absolutely could be opportunities, for example, like the two of you to make a field profile together. Fields F-E-E-E-L-D is like a sort of queer and kink dating app to make a profile together and like

see about potentially having a third that was still a part of the relationship. Like maybe your partner wouldn't actually be into that or maybe your partner would be surprised you by being comfortable with letting you experiment or go on a date with a women. And maybe they very much want to be involved. Maybe they don't want to be involved. But what are the ways that you can bring it to them with an aura of, I love you and care about you? And that is why I want to bring my whole self to you.

And I think it also can be in the context of I want to know you too. And like I want you to feel like you can come to me with anything. And like, yeah, we've been together for decades or whatever the case is. But I keep learning new things about you. And I love that. And I keep learning new things about. about myself and I want us to grow together. So I think sort of the energy behind it and the way it's presented is really important.

And even if it doesn't actually result in you acting on your queerness or bisexuality or exploring it further, I think it can still like bring you closer. And maybe you can even like be watching porn together. Like do you try going to a sex party and like not actually having sex but just seeing what it feels like to watch other people? Like there's all of these things that maybe feel like taboo or like, oh my God, I could never. But like people do. Normal people do.

It's all going to take getting used to. And maybe you don't come out of the gate with like, I signed us up for a sex party. But think about for yourself, what are the things that sound appealing to you and comfortable to you all the way from watching lesbian porn together to actually acting on it. Just think about how you can bring this to your husband. with a whole error of I want this to deepen our relationship and I don't want it to feel threatening and I want you to tell me how you're feeling about this so that we can talk about this together. I'm genuinely confused how master class gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes. I use it when I want to learn

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That is marley spoon.com slash offer slash Liz Moody. So remember to get the offer in there. Marley Spoon.com slash offer slash Liz Moody for up to 25 free meals. And I'm such a fan of not keeping it bottled up inside, even if you don't actually. on it. Like I think that you can act at it or you cannot act on it. Like there are so many options given your goals, your preferences, your husband's goals, your husband's preferences. But like you said, this is an element of your identity. And I think that questioning and being open to your sexuality is so important for obviously so many reasons. But one key part of it is that this is a part of

your identity. And if you don't feel like you're being your fully realized self in this. part of your life, I don't think you're going to be able to be your fully realized self in all of the other parts of your life. Exactly. Yeah. That's so, so well put. And you know what your partner or husband definitely doesn't want is for you to wake up one day and leave without giving them the opportunity to know this part of you. And you can say that too. I don't want to just like divorce you out of the blue out of nowhere and like go off and try dating women because like I do care about you in this relationship and our life. That's why I want us to discuss this. and I want it to bring us closer, even if the only thing that comes out of it is you knowing this about me.

And like, I think also your husband might really surprise you. I think a lot more men are actually more in the by area of a spectrum than we would like to admit. And maybe you're even creating a safe space where he's going to say something really surprising about his own sexual identity or preferences or kinks or fantasies. Like I think it could be a really beautiful conversation. for you. I love that. Okay. Next one. I just found out my sister was unfaithful in her marriage. This news has been extremely shocking and blindsiding. I'm struggling so much with the hurt that comes with the whole situation and how to handle it and be supportive without endorsing it. You have a sister. I have a sister. I do have a sister that is very hard for me to imagine. So I empathize,

but I don't have personal experience with it. And I'm so sorry because that kind of betrayal within a family, it affects everyone. And it puts you in a really unfortunate spot. But I imagine there's also a part of you and a part of maybe even the family that's saying, well, you can't be grieving this. You can't be stressed about this. This isn't even about you. So certainly one of the first things that comes to mind is just be selfish for a second.

Acknowledge how much this sucks for you. Because what I'm reading between the lines is that you really care about your sister and maybe very close with her and respect her so much. And so you're dealing with a shattered idea of who she is, of her identity. If you were totally blindsided, that means that she wasn't talking to you about it. So she was keeping the secret from you too, keeping it from the whole family. I would definitely start by just letting herself have all of the emotions. And in those mindfulness techniques that Liz's guests are always really good at teaching us,

like how can you sit with the anger, sit with the hurt, identify where they are in your body, nurture them, give yourself that loving care of like, no, this is what I feel now and that's okay, because trying to tamp any of it down is definitely only going to make it worse. I would also work on accepting that like this is a huge rupture in your relationship with her and it's going to take time to repair. So something I kind of sense from the question is like almost wanting like a shortcut of like how do we get back to being okay. And the answer is there is no shortcut. It's going to take a while and there probably will be a new equilibrium. And that's maybe something to grieve too. It doesn't mean necessarily that your

sisterhood relationship will never be good again or that you'll never be as close or that it's, you know, irreparably broken forever. I'm not saying that. But just sort of acknowledging like there is no way to go back to where you were in the 90 seconds before you knew this news. you will never feel that way again. And like that is sad and that is hard. And it's also life. And like, things happen all the time that change how we see people. And it's difficult. It's worth mourning and kind of honoring. Like I really loved this about my old relationship with her. And like now that feels like that's in flux. And I think that this speaks to a larger issue. A lot of people have, which is if there's people that I love in my life, whether it's family, whether it's friends, and they're doing things that

are okay with my values or my morals, how do I handle that? That's so well put. And I think that's something a lot of us have dealt with and struggled with. I think when you are ready to listen, when you feel like you have taken a little time to yourself to sort of create and process your own feelings, I always think that empathy is like our superpower when it comes to our relationships with other people. So knowing for yourself, like this is my value, system and I will not endorse it and I will not ever tell her that it's okay. I will not condone this is fine and good. And then you're sitting in that space of knowing yourself. And when you do feel comfortable talking, you can even say maybe not quite that harshly, but I really want to hear

what was going on and I want to understand it because even though I can't condone it, like, I love you and I do want to understand it more. That will be healing, I think, for me and for our relationship. And just thinking about putting yourself in her shoes and what were the circumstances that led to it, understanding more, seeing it from that side, as well as if you are close with your brother-in-law or whoever her partner is, maybe you can separately have a discussion with him that helps you understand what it was like from his side, what he's been going through, how can I be supportive? Do you want me to be supportive or are you not cool with like even being a part of the family right now. What do you need? Could be healing for you. And just being really honest with

everyone, if your sister is going to freak out about the fact that you're talking to her husband or ex or whatever he is, then like just being real. Like he's really important to me too. You're my ride or die. You're my sibling. But like, it's really helping me to process this to be able to deal with him. And just understanding everyone's emotions are running so high and that this is something that your sister did, but it's not who she is. It's kind of bringing to mind for me the difference between shame and guilt. Guilt is this sort of judgment and regret over what you did, whereas shame is this judgment and self-loathing over who you are. And I think we as humans, we like fuck up all the time. She absolutely did something that like does not seem right and you do not endorse.

and like no matter how many ways she explains it and tries to justify it does not make it okay, but that this act is not who she is. It's something she did. And just keeping that in mind as you take as long as you need to sort of repair the relationship while holding strong in your own processing and your own moral system and moral code will put you in a good place to eventually reach a new equilibrium that's really loving and supportive. I think that's such powerful advice. I think at the core, accepting all of our humanness doesn't have to sit in opposition

to having people behave in ways that you don't agree with. Like, I think that both can sit side by side, and it's like the most powerful word in therapy and, and I think really leaning into the end in this situation, it's an incredibly powerful thing. I love that differentiation between shame and guilt. think that's incredibly powerful. Okay. Lately, I have realized that half the problems in my life are caused by my lack of confidence, not specifically regarding physical appearance, but also in terms of not believing

my worth. Could you give me some advice on how to feel more confident and self-assured, please? Part of it is acknowledging that, like, it's not really your fault. It's not something wrong with you for the fact that you don't feel this inherent sense of confidence. I assume this is coming from a woman. like we're taught every day that we have less worth. We're literally paid less. We literally have less value in our capitalistic society that puts a dollar value on everything. We are taken less

seriously. We are not listened to when we speak. People talk over us. So take a step away from the self-judgment that I'm detecting of like, why can't I just be more confident and like acknowledge? It's actually a perfectly normal reaction in a sexist, patriarchal, period. Britannical, white supremacist, colonialists, like all of those things world. Also, like, insidiously, if you think about the times women are celebrated, it's when they're getting married. And then also, we celebrate women so much when they're pregnant and when they're like that, the whole like, oh, you're birthing.

You're like fulfilling your feminine duty to society. And that's when we're going to lodge you. That's when we're going to throw you parties. That's when we're going to give you presents. And like literally it's those two times and that's it. That's it. That is all that you get. Oh, preach, Liz. Oh, my God. It's so true. And so of course, when it comes to your worth in relationships, you're worth in your job, you're worth in all of these other ways. Like, yeah, you're not sucking in and breathing in the air of all of this

validation, the way that people with more power than you are. So don't blame yourself, first of all. But I think second of all, we'll listen to the confidence episode by this moody. It's great healthier together episode. One of my favorites. I've shared it with so many people. Something that I took from it that I really try to do is like when I'm feeling not confident, I call to mind other times that I have actually felt confident, felt accomplished, felt a sense of like, oh, I'm good enough. And just like really time travel back to those moments, like sit in it. What were you doing? Where were you? Who were you around? What had you just finished? Like what felt so good? thinking of times when you felt really confident is great.

And also just thinking of times when you didn't feel this that you're feeling. Like what are the times that you're in such a flow state or you're with people that you really love or you're doing something you just so enjoy, whether that's you playing the violin, actively doing something or like being at a concert, being at a reading, like even just existing, taking in other people doing stuff? Like what are those times when you don't feel this lack of confidence? because if it's too much to actually channel that like, I can do it? It's like, okay, well, can you get yourself in the mental state of when you just like forget that you even exist and just like get out of your head?

Because from that position, it's like this whole confidence, I need to have more, I don't have enough. I have imposter syndrome, no wait, I have whatever. It's actually the world telling me. Like, you can just shut all of that down. What if you're asking the wrong question? Can we just step away from this metric and just be? Like, you are good enough. Everyone listening to this, you are good enough and you are lovable and you are loved and you are

exactly where you're supposed to be and exactly who you're supposed to be. And all sorts of other messages might not tell us that. But like it is the truth. And that's why it's resonating right now as you hear it. I love that. I sang in everything you said. The only thing I would add is the confidence tip that changed my life the most is that confidence doesn't proceed action. Action proceeds confidence. So if you want to do something sitting there and actually think this is really true about a lot of the creative process too, is we like sit there waiting to be creative and actually starting to do the thing you want to be creative about makes you creative. I think that's very true for confidence as well. So instead of sitting there being like, I'm going to be hit with this surge of confidence and then I'm going to be able to do it. Just do it.

Don't wait for the confidence and the confidence will come from having done the thing. Absolutely. That's so true. Okay. Last one. I want to know how to make couple friends. I listened to your episode on making normal friends, but I feel like making couples friends is even harder help. And I'm curious because you got in this new relationship, you're identifying sexually in a different way.

Like there's all these different things happening. So how did you approach making couples friends within all of that? That is such a great question. We started dating during the pandemic. I moved neighborhoods as soon as I got back for D.C. And then Julia moved up here a few months later. So like we're starting from scratch when it came to a couple friends. for us a lot of it has been just like throwing to the wind the idea of being annoying or being

over-eager and I mean we were like we don't have lesbian friends and I was like yeah like there's this woman I used to work with who's like so cool and really liked her but we were never close and I was like showing my girlfriend on Instagram and we were like two drinks into a night out and she's like we should we just DM them and I was like yeah so I just sent a DM where I was like this might be crazy, but, you know, my partner and I did it and she moved up here and they were like, oh my God, yeah, like, let's get together, let's make a date. And then when we saw them, they were like, we have a lot of gay male friends, but like, we have more lesbian friends. And then asking the queer friends that we have, like, where do you meet people? Somebody told us

about the soup feed up. You pay like $5 for a bowl of soup and it's like you just hang out with other people. So we're going to do that. I just always have my radar out too for like couples that I think, if I know one person and then I like meet their partner for the first time and I just like get a vibe of like, oh, they're awesome. Like we would all get along really well. I just like throw it out there when I would normally say like, oh, let's get a drink sometime. I'm like, hey, and it's like you and your partner want to do like a double date. Like why don't we plan something? My other tip for making new friends that I try to be really good about is like plan the next friend date while you're on the date or at worst like once you can.

get home and text them. And like, it doesn't seem too eager. If somebody is too busy for you or doesn't like you, they just won't make plans with you. It's fine. But how much do you love it when somebody like really wants to see you? And it's like, I had so much fun with you. Let's make another plan. Like, let's do the thing that we like casually said we were going to do. If any of these people don't mean it when they're like, yeah, we should go climbing. That's their problem because I am on it. I took them at their word. And I am whipping out my calendar and we are finding a time. because it takes a bit to get that like momentum going. What do you do when you like the person and you don't like their partner?

Just like these are not going to be my couple friends and that's okay? Yeah. Then it's sort of like we don't need to see their partner every time. The partner becomes somebody who's like there when necessary. Which is okay. I actually think people often are like devastated when they don't like their friends' partners. And it's certainly a bummer because it's awesome when you do. But I think that it's that thing where you don't need your friends to fill all of the boxes.

Like you can have your couple's friends. You can have your workout friends. You can have your call them and have long, deep conversations once every six months friends. There's so many different categories and they're all valid and they're all important. So I also think that being like these aren't going to be our couple's friends and like that's a okay is really nice too. A hundred percent. And I think it's important too for couples to have different friends and like. Like, we all need our own circles and our own people filling different boxes.

For sure. Those are all really good tips. I'm trying to think about how Zach and I have made all of our couples fun. I think it's similar to what you said with the DMing because it's like if you know if you want something, there's like a very good chance other people want that. So when I meet people, I'm really aggressive about kind of putting myself out there because I have the assumption that they also want that. And I'm almost taking the burden off of them a little bit.

Yeah, I think people appreciate it. Everyone wants to feel wanted. And it's kind of no harm, no foul. Like, if they don't want to continue a friendship with you, like, you're where you started. Nothing. Like, fine, then we won't hang out. Like, who cares? That's so true.

Can we do a double date when I'm in New York in September and then we can be a couple friends? 100,000 percent. Yes. Andy, this was so lovely. We've talked about the spare room a little bit, but tell us all about it. Give us the pitch. Make us want to read it. Thanks so much.

This was so fun. I loved everyone's juicy questions. in the spare room, a down-on-her-luck woman early in the pandemic moves in with this enchanting couple that opens up their marriage for her. And at first, she really loves being a part of their sexy new world. But when she discovers that their last lover is missing, she starts to wonder if they might actually be dangerous and if she is next. So it is suspenseful, it's spicy, it's kind of an updated gothic chiller and I hope it's a really fun reading experience

for everyone to fix it up. I don't know if I've told you this, maybe I have, but you are single-handedly the person who got me into the genre of thrillers because I was kind of dismissive as genre fiction. I guess I was like, oh, I read literary fiction and I like to just be about the characters and then I realized from your books

that it could be about these really interesting character dynamics but the mystery keeps you like wanting to turn pages, staying up at late. Like it gives you that propulsion forward. And I was like, who wouldn't want this? Like this is the best of all worlds. Oh, I love that so much. That's the goal. I want to like make people think and consider things from a different angle and go deeper

on the themes. But like most importantly, it is just supposed to be such a fun reading experience. That's what we all deserve. Yes. I feel like I want to like shake all the people who still feel like reading should be a chore. and they have that book sitting on their nightstand that they've read 20 pages of and they can't get any further. And I'm just like, let go of that book.

Like, pick out a book that's fun. Reading is one of the greatest pleasures in the world. Like, don't deny yourself that. I constantly tell people something I learned from you, which is that the act of reading is pretty similar to meditation. It like shuts everything else down. There's nothing better than just getting lost in a great page turner. Like, what could be better?

All right. So we can find you on Insta, your website. Andy, is it Andy Bartz.com? Andrea Bartz.com. I am inconsistent, which is very dumb. But I am Andy Bartz, A-N-D-I, B-A-R-T-Z at TikTok, Twitter, and Instagram, and those are sort of my main hangouts. Amazing.

And if you are looking to get in touch with your creative self, Andy shares incredible advice for authors, for people looking to write more, for people who just want to get in touch with their creative side. So I highly recommend that. And the spare room is available wherever books are sold when this comes out. So thank you so much for joining us today, Andy. I love this. Thank you so much, Liz.

Yay, we love Andy. Go buy her book so you can get your juicy summer read on. And if you would like to have your questions answered on any future advice episodes, send them over to Ask at Liz Moody.com. They are always completely anonymous. We will be back with a fresh advice episode on the last Monday of July. So tune in for that. But we will have our normal episodes every Wednesday.

and we have some very exciting ones coming up, including a deep dive into eye and vision health, and a comprehensive guide to making our fur babies live as long as possible, which has already changed so much of what I do with Bella. So make sure that you are following the podcast so you do not miss out on anything. Just go to the main page for the podcast on whatever app you listen on is the one with all of the healthier together episodes listed. You're going to hit the button that says follow so that you get the episode right in your feed every single week.

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