The Liz Moody Podcast - Alison Roman — Body Love, Sudden Success, And Cooking Secrets

Episode Date: July 5, 2018

Alison Roman (@alisoneroman) is the author of Dining In: Highly Cookable Recipes, one of the most successful, innovative, and delicious cookbooks of the past year. The former senior food editor at Bon Appetit, Alison dropped out of college to work in the restaurant world before some lucky biscuits provided her big break into editorial. Now, she’s working on a second cookbook, and developing recipes for Bon App, and the NYTimes. Alison is one of those innately cool people, who just feels like she knows herself and what she likes. She wasn’t always this way though—in the episode, we talk about the body image issues she’s had to overcome as a food professional, and the steps she’s taken to learn to love herself. We also discuss the notion of success, and what having such a huge win actually does in terms of changing your life. We talk about how to make food taste delicious, her recent breakup, anxiety, CBD, the story behind her viral cookies, and so much more. Be sure to check out my Instagram (@lizmoody) where I’ll be giving away a few copies of Alison’s gorgeous book. Enjoy! This podcast is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. I’m extremely picky about the food I consume, and after doing a huge amount of research on mushrooms, I’ve become not only a fan but an evangelist. I don’t drink caffeine, so I use mushrooms to help me wake up in the morning (cordyceps), focus in the afternoon (lion’s mane), and calm down in the evening (reishi). I also use the chaga to bolster my immune system on trips (either cross-country or just on the arguably-more-disgusting NYC subway). This stuff REALLY works, and now I rarely go a day without it. Get 15% off your order using the code healthiertogether, or visiting foursigmatic.com/healthiertogether (and feel free to hit me up on Instagram @lizmoody with any questions—I could swan over shrooms till the end of time!). Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi friends and welcome back to the Healthier Together podcast. The Healthier Together podcast is all about coming together and sharing our knowledge so that we can live happier, healthier lives. Each episode, I'll have a guest like a best-selling author, a world-famous doctor, an award-winning chef, a TV star, a movie star, a celebrity hypnotist, and so much more. And we will talk about things like food and beauty and wellness and travel and meditation and how to generally live our best lives. We will also talk about the stories behind the people that you've been. come to know and love. So it's really, really fun. I am your host, Liz Moody, and I'm the author of the upcoming cookbook, Healthyer Together, which you can actually pre-order now on Amazon. It's easy to remember the name because it's the same name as this podcast that you're listening to. I am also

the food director at My Buddy Green, which is an amazing wellness website. So I am very steeped in the healthy food world. So speaking of steeped in the food world, let's talk about my guest today, Allison Roman. I was actually a little bit nervous to interview Allison because I have such a girl crush on her. I followed her on Instagram for ages. I've made her recipes from her amazing cookbook dining in. And then I met her. We actually were hanging out on the floor of her apartment that she had just moved into

that she didn't have furniture on. So when you're listening to this podcast, picture us both laying on the floor next to her oven where she was roasting a beautiful chicken in a gorgeous apartment with no furniture. and you'll have you'll have a perfect picture of what was going on. Allison is a recipe developer and she is the author of the mega successful cookbook dining in, which I just mentioned. And it feels like that cookbook was literally everywhere this fall. It feels like everybody is talking about it.

Every magazine, every person that I knew is like, oh my God, have you seen this cookbook? And it truly, it lives up to the hype. It feels very cool and fresh and different. And the recipes feel lighthearted and fun, but also really, you know, interesting flavor combinations and smart cooking that you haven't seen before, which is an amazing combination. So Allison, Allison started her career after dropping out of college,

which is pretty balsy and badass. And she started working at some of the best restaurants in San Francisco and New York before making some lucky biscuits that landed her a job in the Bon Appetite Test Kitchen, which is pretty dreamy, I think. She eventually became the senior food editor there. And now she writes freelance. and she develops recipes for places like Bonap and The New York Times. So she has some pretty serious food credentials.

And we talk about in this episode what you should make for dinner tonight. So be sure to listen for that because when Allison said something like that, you should believe her for sure. She has the credentials to talk about it. She's also one of those like innately super cool people. Her food is very confident and very self-assured. Even when she's telling you to do really weird things like add anchovies to literally everything. or use salted butter in your baking. And it really feels like she lives her life in the same way.

If you love Allison's food, I think you're going to really love getting to know the woman behind the food because it's equally inspiring. I just think she has this effortless coolness that she brings to everything she makes in the kitchen and she has that same effortless coolness in her life. So a lot of this episode is me sort of dissecting how we can all get that effortless coolness ourselves in every component of our lives and in the kitchen. We also talk about the process of writing a cookbook. We talk about the body image issues that come from devoting your life to food and how she works through them, which I found really fascinating. She was super open about all of that,

which I also love in an interview. We talk about how she develops her recipes, where she gets her ideas from. We talk about what life was like working at Bon Appetit, which is so many people's dream job. And so a little glimpse behind that curtain was really, really interesting. We talk about her go-to wellness practices, her self-care practices, what defines success for her and what the secret is to her success, which I found really interesting. She's achieved such levels of celebrity in the food world. And it was interesting for me to get a gauge on whether she was like, yes, I've done it now. I feel great. Or if she felt like there was still more to come or where all of that lies when you get to those really high up levels.

We talk about why she loves and hate social media and how she deals with those feelings. We talk about the age that she started really becoming self-confident and what the impetus for that was. We talk about a recent breakup and what it's like for people to treat her like a celebrity. We talk about how much money people actually make writing books, which is really interesting. We talk about how she deals with the anxiety that comes from an insanely competitive career and using CBD for said anxiety. We talk about the story behind the cookies, which became a literal viral sensation.

I have never seen a recipe go viral like this. And I wanted to know like, why? And were they that good? And did she know that they were going to be viral when she first started making them? We talked about so many other things. Talk about how she's a professional travel writer too. She tells us like how to find yummy food when we travel, which was a really interesting tip for me and so much more.

You can find Allison on her very cool Instagram account. I'll leave her handle in the show notes, but it's just at Allison E. Roman. And of course, you can find her amazing book dining in in bookstores around the country and online. I'll also be giving away a few copies of the cookbook on my Instagram, one for you and one for a friend. So you guys can get healthier together. So be sure to check that out at at Liz Moody. And that is all for today. Sit back, relax, maybe make some cookies.

They are really, really good. I have made them and I can attest to that. The dough is really delicious too. and enjoy the show. Allison, thanks so much for sitting on your kitchen floor with me today. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. So what do you wish they always asked you on the millions and millions of podcasts that you've done that they never do?

You know, I really wish we talked about, you know, like the process of cookbook writing a little bit more than sort of the before and after. Just because I find that it's a thing that nobody talks about. Yeah. And it's really interesting, you know, like how you actually make the thing. you know and you know what a photo shoot's like and what the process is so how how do you make the thing i know doris kind of wooed you right she did yeah so she i was approached by my editor doris cooper at clerks and potter and she emailed me out of the blue and said i love your recipes i think you should do a cookbook and i kind of always thought i would do a cookbook but it never seemed like i was like

well i'll do it one day but i'm not going to do it now you know um but it the time was now and then i started doing it and because the process i mean from that conversation i mean from that conversation to the time it even came out was about two and a half years. Yeah, it takes insanely long. I think most people don't realize like how many months, even after you've turned in the whole manuscript before they turn around and actually publish it. And then it's crazy that food even feels relevant when you're talking about it years and years later. Well, that's what so, you know, about when you decide what dishes to put in your book, which I'm going through again right now, because I'm working on the second book, which is how do you make something that is interesting now

and also timeless, you know, like down the road. So how did you decide what recipes were you're just like, this is my big cookbook, this is my chance? I'm going to put all my best, best, best, best recipes in. Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of that and a little bit of just like where I was creatively at the time. You know, I think that if you try to put all your greatest hits in one thing and it's like, well, what do you have left for the next one?

And so they kind of had to feel like they belong together. Like I wanted all the recipes to feel like they sat at the same table. Okay. So Doris comes to you and you had the concept of dining in sort of in your back pocket. Not really. No. I mean, I kind of stressed out about it for a long time because I thought, okay, well, they want me to do a cookbook, but what is my cookbook? Yeah. What is, I don't have like a hook. I don't have a thing. I'm not healthy. I don't just do one type of food. I don't have like an ethnicity that I like strong enough in that I could make a whole book about. I don't want to be like a 30 minute person. I don't want to, you know, especially in a world where almost everybody's cookbook had. as a hook. Everything is a slow cooker, gluten-free, or paleo, or pasta, or a salad, or whatever. There's every type of book that is filling a niche kind of thing. Or you're a restaurant chef, right? And my book reflects that. And what they said to me when I also have a few books

with Clarkson Potter, and when I was first talking to them, they were like, even if you're a huge, huge name, you should always have this hook because even if two million people know who you are, if you have a hook, you can get like 10 million people who don't know who you are. So even the most famous cookbooks these days, they say, oh, you should like have a little. Yeah. Yeah. Like even Chrissy Teigen, they're like, have a hook, Chrissy. Yeah, exactly.

So I kind of said that I don't, didn't want one. And they let me not have one. So that was great. That is a hook, though. I feel like I love the concept of bringing an effortless version of restaurant food to your house. Yeah. Yeah.

I suppose. I think you're right. Yeah. I sort of thought of it though is like, I'm just going to do what I do. And we'll describe it as such. And like, that will be the thing that we sell. Yeah. You know.

But without it being like super explicit. So, but yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I was sort of just after thinking about it, I was like, that's the book I want to write. I don't want to write any other book right now. So did you enjoy the process of coming up by your recipes and the recipe testing part? Yeah. That was, I mean, that's what I've been doing for years. So I've, before I was at Bonabit, I cooked professionally in restaurant.

kitchens and so I am used to cooking every day. Like right, these days actually I'm probably cooking less than I ever have in my life and it's freaking me out. But um. Because you're doing press stuff. Yeah. I'm just, and I'm writing more and I'm doing other things. But it's, I know, I'm like looking forward to the next couple months where I'm like getting

back into the kitchen. But I really love that process of making food and asking myself, is this as good as it could be? Could it be more streamlined? Could it be, you know, easier? Could it be more interesting? Could it be, you know, just kind of going to. through the list of questions of wanting to make something really special for people.

Could you walk me through what that process kind of looks like from inception to being done with a recipe, like pick a recipe that you made and be like, where did I get the idea for that? Or was there a problem I was trying to solve? And then how you went about that? Each recipe is kind of born in a different way, I guess. Like, you know, a lot of the salads, you know, and like vegetable dishes is just kind of like, how do I like to eat these vegetables? Like, what's the best way to cook a carrot?

Like what's the most enjoyable way to eat a piece of funnel? And then kind of go from there. But a lot of it is editorializing, right? So I realize there's, and we all do this, but we have certain ingredients we really love and that we cook with all the time. And that's fine when you're at home, but not, you know, there's, we have our pantry items and we have the way that we cook at home and that's fine. But when you're writing a book, you can't have yogurt under everything.

You can't put chili flake in everything. You can't finish everything. You put yogurt under a few things, I feel like. Yeah, but I would have done more. Every single thing. Yeah. Like, I would have really gone for it if it were an actual, like, accurate slice of kind of what it's like to eat in my kitchen. But, you know, you editorialize and you say, okay, like, I'm going to rain it in a little bit.

Are there foods in your cookbook that you don't really like? Like, that you were like, I need a lamb dish and I wouldn't almost ever eat lamb. The only thing that I included that I don't eat a ton of is, and you'll notice there's only one in there, but it's sweet potatoes. I don't really eat sweet potatoes ever. Squash I eat more, but not sweet potatoes. I eat maybe once a year, if that. I never cook them at home. Why?

I just don't care for them. I don't like sweet foods. Like I don't... Despite the cookies, we'll talk about it. Yeah, look up there. Yeah, I don't have a sweet tooth. I never have. It's just not for me.

And I don't, I tend to kind of stay away from sweet vegetables, but also sweet potatoes have kind of one time. texture and it's like mushy and soft. Right. And I find that they're just, they're just always too much. I'm like, why are you here? Like, I'd rather you be a regular potato. I'd rather you be literally any other vegetable.

Right. And so yeah. But I know that people like sweet potatoes. So I will continue to create recipes for them in a way that I find fun to eat. So what's your favorite part of writing the book and including the promotion process, like the whole book process? You know, the whole thing is so different, but I got to say, I mean, I love being on set and I love photo shoots and I cooked everything in the book. I didn't hire a food stylist.

I had an assistant, but like it was very important to me that I made all the food in the book and that it look how I, how it does when I cook it, you know, and how. So you styled all of the pictures? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. And people don't know that and they assume that I didn't. No, I definitely assume that you didn't. Nobody does. Yeah. So it was really important to me. And I wanted it. Have you food styled before? No. You just knew, you had a vision for what this book was going to look like.

Yeah, I was, I just knew that I knew what I wanted my food to look like. And I knew that anyone else doing it, it would have looked like every other cookbook. It would have looked like, you know, the same. There's only so many food stylists in the world. Right. And a lot of people, there's a lot of overlap and, you know, you tend to have a style in the same way. Like, I plate food very similarly, no matter what I'm plating. Right.

It's just a style. And I feel like, you know, that's, it's got to be. unique to me into what I'm doing. And I also just didn't want it to be like, oh, well, this is how it's going to look in your kitchen, but here's how it looks in the book. It was very important to me that it look real. Real. And so in order to do that, I had to really do it.

Do you feel like you had a lot of agency in the look and feel of the book in so far as how the publisher had it outside of the photos? Totally. Yeah. I mean, they kind of let us do what we wanted. It was pretty great. Really? Yeah.

They just, we. sent them photos from the sad and they're like great I'm like great um but you know I had worked with the photographers before and the prop stylist and um I think that they trusted us you know but also like I had been working in editorial for so long that I kind of knew like I think they knew I wasn't going to totally blow it yeah um and they were very trusting and I think that I kind of like demanded that they trust me because I hated the feeling of people watching over me or like not trusting me in that respect, but I was very, very lucky that they kind of let us do what we wanted and they were very happy with the results. And what about the cover? How involved for you in the...

Oh, super involved. Like they, I made us do a third shoot so we could get a cover. Wait, really? Yeah. I was like, we don't have a cover and everyone's like, well, what about this? What about this? I'm like, no, no, none of these are the cover. But that was my own fault because when we were shooting, we weren't shooting for a cover. I was sort of like too relaxed about it and didn't really have a vision for the cover. But it's hard to know what the cover should be before you see the whole book. Right. So I was, in a sense, it was, it kind of worked out because I was able to see the book

and then be like, this is what the cover needs to be. This is what it needs to look like. This is the kind of shot it needs to be. You know, and it was hard to be able to tell what that was going to be without seeing the whole book. I think it's hard because sometimes the cover is an afterthought because you're shooting so many other photos, but it is also the most important part of the book because it's what people see and they're like, I want to buy this.

Exactly. Yeah. What was your least favorite part of the whole process? Um, probably the re, like just the endless hours of editing where you're just going back and forth and you're rewriting and you're writing and you're getting pages and you're kind of like your whole life is on hold because you're waiting at any moment to get your notes back and you got to turn them around in a week and a half and that can be really stressful. And I remember just not really sleeping and I, I just, you know, you're just reading the same book over and over and over again. And you're like, wait, did I fix that mistake? Which edition is this? Is this a different version?

And like even still, even reading it and editing it and going through that whole process, you still find errors. Like there were still, I think, three or four mistakes in the book at publishing time. And I fixed three of them by the first edition and in time for the second printing. And there's still one mistake that's lingering. That's like there's like an extra half a cup of blueberries that I don't tell you what to do with or something. It's not life threatening. But there's so many little.

tiny things that have to be. And there's, I'm reading it. My editor's reading it. There's copy editors reading it. Everyone's reading it. And there's just still so much to, you know, you just, it slips through the cracks. So when you finished it, were you like, this is going to be a huge hit book? Or did you have a sense that it was going to kind of, there's so many cookbooks that come out.

And yours is kind of really broke through and become something. I hope so. It's hard for me to tell if it has or not. You know, like, honestly, I don't have. that much perspective because I only know what's happening to me. I don't know what's happened to anyone else who's written the book. You know, so I'm like, is it normal? I don't know.

Like, what I don't know what the other experiences have been. But I did feel like I had, and it sounds like really cheesy. But I did have a moment where like, I think it was after the first shoot or during the first shoot, maybe like the first day or second day, just like when we had just started. And I was looking at the photos. And I was like, I think we're making something really special and cool. And I felt really good. And I knew that even if that just meant I thought that.

I was proud of it. You know, and I kind of knew at that moment, okay, it doesn't really matter what happens now because I've made something that I'm really proud of. And I did the best I could possibly do. And like we worked so hard on it and so much thought went into it of like mood boards and vision boards and reshoots and shooting again and replating. And, you know, everyone really just took such care of the book and like really poured themselves into it.

And I think at the end of the day, we're all just like, wow, that was a real labor of love and we're all really happy with it. And we realize, like, doesn't matter what happens after that. Could you, do you have a sense of why it's caught on with so many people? Like, why people are so obsessed with it? I don't know. Or what's different about it? I don't know. I think it's fun to look at.

I think the photos are beautiful. I think the recipes work. I think they're accessible. I think that you can make most everything in it from, like, stuff at a bodega if you really wanted to. Yeah. You know, it just is very casual. And I think it's the right place, right time. I think people are looking to eat at less.

And I think they're looking to like actually start cooking again. And, you know, I don't know what. All I can say that it makes it different is that I wrote it. You know, like I'm not reinventing the wheel. Like there's like, you know, I'm sure a million dishes that are kind of similar in other books. I don't know. But I think, you know, the voice and the design and the photography, it just makes it feel accessible, I guess. Do you feel like you have a.

a particular food perspective that you could, I mean, you come from the editorial world if you were describing yourself, if you were somebody else to somebody else, what would you say? Oh, gosh. I don't know. I think that, I mean, the sort of the tagline for the book being highly cookable recipes kind of sums it up. And I think that just being, um, creating recipes that are that are easily executed, no matter what your skill level, you know, and so often people don't write books with the reader in mind. They read them with themselves in mind and what they can do to show off their technique and their skills and how much they know and how many cool ingredients they can put in a one dish and, you know, here's what I know and here, you know, and it's not really doing anyone a service

if your book is not going to be cooked from. And so, yeah, I think that my approach is just kind of lo-fi and unfussy, you know, and, but like actually, you know, there's a lot of people that are like, oh, all you have to do is this, this, this, and this. this and this. And you're like, well, I'm not going to do half of that, you know. And I think that I have a pretty realistic expectation of what people are going to do because I know what I will do and what I won't do. So what do you cook from the book the most other than I'm sure you have to make the cookies for events all the time. I have to make the cookies for the events all the time. I actually don't cook from the book at all because I am moved on. I'm working on the second book. And I also,

you know, I continue to work and do freelance. So I'm never going back to that. But there's a certain things and certain styles of the way that I cook. Like, it's very reflective of the things that I might serve if I'm at a dinner party. Like, I put breadcrumbs on salads, and I use egg yoke as a dressing, and I cook my shrimp and lots of garlic and butter and tomato paste. And, you know, I think that there's kind of basic elements to the way and style that I cook that I cook that can be found in that book. But I don't ever cook from any books.

I've never cooked from a cookbook. So I think that that. Do you use them for inspiration? Totally, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, you can see I have a million and I love to leaf through them and kind of just get a sense of somebody's cooking style and personality. And there's certain ones that I use for reference that are more technical and ones that I use more for general inspiration, be it design or art or food and recipes. What are some of your favorites? You know, a lot of my favorite books are UK books. I love Diana Henry. I love River Cottage. I love The Flavor Thesaurus.

I love. Who else do I love? I mean, I feel like they're all over there. Like, Adelangy and Nigella. Like, I just, I tend to gravitate towards British authors. Anna Jones, I think is great. Yeah, she's amazing. But, yeah, I mean, there's other, like, cookbook authors that I've,

become close with that are, you know, U.S. based, and I think they're all really talented and wonderful and amazing, too. And I admittedly don't look at as many cookbooks as I should, given that that's the business that I'm in. But I honestly, it's, there's so many that come out all the time that I don't have, like a ton of bandwidth. I would like to start reading non-cookbook books, too, but I'd like to just start reading again. Do you read fiction? I do. Yeah, I try. I try to do. I try to do, I try to balance my life with things that are not food related because I spent so much in my life, especially when I was a professional cook. That's all I did. I just think about food, talk about food. I only read cookbooks. I only like plan trips around food and eating. I only cooked

even in my time off. I worked all the time. Like that was my life. And even when working at the magazine, it kind of becomes your life because you have to be so, you know, in it. You have to know everybody and you have to know every restaurant that opens. You have to go to all those restaurants and You have to be able to talk about every single ingredient and person and chef and restaurant and thing that is in the food world at all times because that's just kind of what's expected of you. And I was noticing I was becoming a little less well-rounded than I'd like. So what are your favorite outside of food stuff to think about or talk about or do? Well, right now it's a horrible example because right now I haven't been doing much of that. But even just something as simple as like I've recently started going back to yoga, but in a serious way where I'm going like five times a week again.

and that has... I think I saw you at my yoga studio once. Oh, which one do you go to? Skyting. Oh, yeah. Well, you talked my friend L. Inglase, like went and said hi to you. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's so funny.

Yeah, so I was like there with her. Oh, okay. Cool. Yeah, I go there a lot. I go to Tangerine. I've never been Tangerine. It's hot yoga. It's great.

Oh, my God. Hot yoga is like me. Yeah, it's intense. But yeah, doing even something like that is a thing that I do for myself that is not at all food related and is just for me and kind of helps. me reset, but in the past I've, like, taken ceramics classes, which I had on my list of things to do this year, and I just don't think I'm going to get around to it. Yeah.

But, you know, just like other types of traveling and when I do travel to drives to do new things, like I took surf lessons when I went and just kind of stuff that I would never, ever have done before. Are you a good surfer? No. Horrible. I have horrible core strength. I have no balance.

I'm like textbook bad. Yeah. But I did, like, move my body on a wave. which I was very proud of. I probably won't ever do that again. The first time I ever went surfing and I broke my nose. Like the surfboard came out of the, it was my first, first time. It was my first time and I came out of the water like bleeding down my face.

Yeah. This is not my sport. I was going to say that's a way to never get you to do something ever again. Yeah. But yeah, and just, you know, going to more museums and trying to go to the movies and just do other things. Do you feel like you're the kind of New Yorker who's good at taking it, who appreciates all of the wonders of the city? Are you the type of New Yorker who's like, I'm here for my career and I'm getting

out as soon as can. No, I think I've recently become more the type that's really trying to like soak it up because I think that maybe I won't be here forever, although it's been nine years. But yeah, I think that every New Yorker could always take better advantage. There's so much going on. But I think the hard part becomes when you spend your free time trying to spend time with your friends, right, or people that you're trying to get together with, be it like a networking thing or catching up or your friends or this or that, people in town. So I find myself doing the same things in one of the one. going to go to the same places.

And I think that I can do a better job of getting out of that rut of just saying, okay, we're going to do something else. We're going to go to a new place. We're going to go to a new neighborhood. We're going to go to the Upper East Side. Why? I am so far away from there. But I want to go to Benmelmans and I want to have a martini and get the free snack mix and listen

to music. And I want to do that, you know, because it doesn't exist anywhere else. What are some of your favorite spots at the city? Again, I kind of tend to do the same thing. And it's also seasonal. I think in the wintertime I spend a lot of my time at like the Russian baths, either on 10th Street or Mall Street. I love the baths. I go to kind of...

Is that, does it feel clean? I've always wanted to go, but I'm always just like, am I going to get a strange disease from this? What's clean in New York? You know, it's like we ride the subway. I guarantee you it's not grosser than the subway. Okay. So it's the Wall Street ones are decidedly less gross. Okay.

But the ones on 10th Street are. This is a very special place. And I think you get more sick from going to like a place, a yoga studio that doesn't wash their mats or something. You know what I mean? Like everywhere is gross. You live in a gross city. But I do that a lot. I go to kind of like the same restaurants.

I go to parks. I go to servos. I got to prune. I go. I only go to restaurants with one word names. I go to Estella and Wilder there. While there's almost two words, except for they stylized it as one word. Exactly.

So I'll say that that's different because it's two. But, yeah, even though it's one. Marlow and Sons, that's two words. Yes. But yeah, I tend to kind of favor the same type of restaurant. And it's the one where either A, I know someone who works there, B, they have an amazing wine list, D, the food's great. D, it has like a very New York kind of intimate vibe or best if it has all of those things,

which most of the places I just mentioned do. So do you feel like you're a success now that you've had this like big successful cookbook? Do you feel like it's changed you? I think a lot of people spend their lives being like, if I could just do this one thing. Yeah. And you've kind of done the one thing in a sense a lot of people dream about. Yeah. I keep moving the needle for what that will define me as successful.

I think I have always been that type of person where it's like if I just get a job at a restaurant, if I just can move to another city, if I can just move to New York, if I can just work in a magazine, if I could just get put on staff in a magazine, if I could just write a recipe that gets published in a magazine. Like, you kind of keep setting these new goals for what defines you as success, like, in the time and space that you're at, right? Like, my, what defines success for me at 26 is not where I'm at now at 32, like, at all. And so I think that this was a huge accomplishment for me, and I continue to be proud of it

and celebrate it. And I don't want to lose sight of that, but I'm definitely thinking like, okay, what next? And like, how can I keep going with this and kind of blow it up even more? So what is next? Well, I'm writing the second book. And that'll come out, God willing, in fall of 2019. And then I have TV stuff kind of in the works and, like, potentially podcast stuff in the works and kind of just figuring out how to continue to write and do recipes, but not necessarily

write about recipes. I want to kind of grow my writing career. You did creative writing in college. I did. Yeah. Are you interested in someday being more of a creative writer? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, yes and no, I'm not a nonfiction writer. Yeah. But like long form narrative nonfiction. Yeah, I would really love to do that. In fact, I'm like seeking out workshops at, you know, right now that I can take that will kind of help me strengthen those skills. And I just find, I think, feel like that can be a really powerful way to tell stories and sometimes there's food and sometimes there's not. But I think that, especially in the food space, so much of narrative nonfiction can be overly wrought with seriousness and kind of just this like dripping with, I don't know, just like

in heaviness and sappiness and kind of like saccharin. You know, you just, you're like, oh my God, it's so Iroly, like, you know. But there's so much about life that translates, that can, that you can relate to via food that feels funny and relatable and interesting and ties into different areas of your life that I kind of want to explore a little bit more. What's your theme of your second cookbook or is it just like dining in two? No, I wish it was dining in two. That would make my life so much easier. Yeah, that unfortunately is not going to happen.

No, it's more, when is this coming out? This is going to be out in like a few weeks. Okay. But it's a little bit more how to have people over focused. So not entertaining. Yeah, not entertaining. Just more how to like feed more than yourself. You know, and like more than just the food.

Is it the sort of lifestyle elements that come with that? No, it's really food focused. There'll be other tips that are not recipes and kind of anecdotes and stories over that. But kind of just like what it means to create a meal. Like you have this piece of salmon. What do you make with it? know, I feel like one of the number one questions I get from people that have read the cookbook and cook from it, they say, okay, I'm making your anchovy butter chicken, what do I make with it? Or I'm making your silversed salmon, like, what should I do with it?

Or I really want to make this, you know, barrow with sausage and broccoli, but like what else can I do to like make it a meal? You know, so to kind of just help people come to those conclusions and kind of, okay, you're always going to want this kind of thing on the table, this kind of thing and this kind of thing. Make it a meal is a good title. Yeah, it's cute. You can have to take it. Yeah. But yeah, but kind of just taking the fear out of, oh, my God, my in-laws are coming over. Like, I have to actually make a meal.

Like, we can't just throw everything into a bowl, you know. And one thing I noticed from this cookbook, Dining In, is that people are using it to cook for like four to six people. They're having people over. And that's really exciting. And so just kind of more of that encouraging people. So if dining in was sort of phase one of, okay, we're going to get in the kitchen, it's not scary. It doesn't, you can just cook for yourself. if you can do whatever you want.

This is sort of phase two of like, okay, now you're going to invite people into your home and figure out how to like continue that and make that more of your Friday night rather than going out to a bar, you know? Yeah. So I know you keep moving the barometer of what actually counts of success, but you have been by sort of a lot of outside accounts quite successful, you know, throughout your life, whether it's getting a job at a really nice restaurant that's quite competitive, I would imagine, or getting these editing gigs at Bon Appetit or the kitchen gigs of Bon Appetit and stuff like that.

And then your cookbook, obviously, what do you attribute that success to? I don't know. I feel like we should call my therapist and he can tell us. I don't know. I feel like it's just this kind of thing that I feel like I'm not going to, I feel like I just want more. Like I want, I feel like I've worked really hard my whole life to be in this industry and to do this. and I feel like I want to see how far I can push it, you know, and just kind of feeling like, I don't know, what is it about a person that makes them feel like it's not enough, you know?

And it worries me about myself sometimes or I'm like, oh, am I going to just be forever chasing something that doesn't exist or like a level? But in the past few months, I've also found myself relaxing on a lot that I previously wouldn't have. I became more comfortable saying no to things and turning projects down. if they didn't really vibe with what I'm trying to do, even if they were lucrative. And that to me is success, right? Like, I can look at a project and say, is this going to really, like, help drive the message of what I'm trying to say?

Is this really going to benefit me? Is it going to kind of more clearly define who I am and what I'm trying to do in this world? And the answer is no, then I can pass. Do you feel like you know who you are and what you're trying to do in this world? Do you feel like you have that? I feel like I'm working on it. I feel like I have a more clear vision of that now than I ever have before. But tomorrow I can have a total freak out and realize that I have no idea what I'm doing.

So it kind of changes. But I think that me just, I am very, I feel like I make most decisions based on my instincts and what my intuition tells me and my gut. And, you know, if something nags at me for more than a few days, I'm like, that's not right. I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't say yes to that. And I think especially with Instagram and all that, people are really. quick to be like, oh, we'd love to have you, you know, as our food influencer, you know, da-da-da.

And I have to be like, that's not what I do. And that's not who I am. And I can't be dazzled by that because it is cool to, like, show up for something, do nothing and get paid a lot of money. Yeah, totally. To like be an influencer. But I, it's very important to me that I maintain the fact that I've worked really hard and I actually have something to offer beyond like a bunch of followers on Instagram,

which, you know, is like an amazing platform and such a fun. way to engage with people that are buying the book and have questions and want to share the things that they're making. But it's not something that I want to like let define me. How do you feel about Instagram generally? Like I think a lot of people who have big followings have sort of mixed feelings about it. I think it's great. I think that, you know, the biggest thing for me is not being addicted to my phone all the time.

And that becomes really challenging because I get a lot of messages and a lot of comments and I want to address them all, especially if people are having problems with something or have a question and want to reach out. And I try to respond to people. But it becomes overwhelming. And then I realize I'm depleted. Like I have nothing else for the day. Or like I'm like in bed and I'm like obsessively like checking things and and finding a way to kind of like create some boundaries for yourself. Because there's people that reach out to me that are like, I have a question.

How come da da da da. And I'm like, oh God. Like I don't know this person. It's a total stranger. but I feel compelled to respond and engage. And there becomes a place where it's like people that don't know you demand a lot from you because you're easily accessible through an app like Instagram. You know, there's no one they have to go through.

And it becomes really intense. And you feel like, oh, if I don't respond, I'm letting them down. But at the same time, I don't know this person and like it's weird. Yeah. You know, but I'd say like 98% of the interactions I receive on that app or insanely, insanely. positive and they make me really emotional and really proud of what I've done because I'm seeing that people are cooking from it and most people are just like, hey, just want to let you know, I love your book and we're cooking from it all the time. And we haven't been cooking for a few years,

but now we are and just want to say thanks. And like that stuff is, I like moves me to tears. I'm so grateful that there's a way for people to communicate that stuff to me. But yeah, I don't know. And I think everything beyond that and it can be like a real source of bad feelings for a lot of people because you think, oh, this person has that and that person's doing this and like, what am I doing? And so I find myself just looking at it a lot less than I used to. And that means just kind of posting when I feel like it, not feeling pressure to create content if it doesn't feel natural. Yeah, do you stress out when you're posting photos or you just like snap it? Because your photos feel very like in the moment.

They are. Yeah. I very rarely post something unless, you know, that's not in the moment unless it's like something that I'm promoting that just came out or something that I, you know, took a picture of at the time. But yeah, I don't stress out about it anymore at all. Like, it's just, to me, it's very important that it feel natural and organic. And there's sometimes where I'm posting three times a day because I'm on a cool trip and everything's beautiful. And there's some days like today where I don't really have much going on. And I'm not going to overwhelm myself with like creating images for the sake of it because then I have no time to do all my other work.

Do you get, you were saying that like the scrolling and seeing what other people are up to can lead to not so positive feelings? you get jealous of what other people are sort of doing? Oh, totally. Yeah, I'm a human woman person that lives in New York. It's like, yeah, totally. I'm trying to curb that. And I think that that, like, insecurity and jealousy and, like, the FOMO and all that is so natural and happens to everybody. Nobody is immune to that.

I think a lot of people feel like if they reach a certain level of success or if they have this thing or this thing or this thing, it'll assuage, you know, some of that jealousy. So I think it's interesting when people who feel like they have those things still have it. And it definitely has, I will say. But I think it has less to do with success and more to do with the fact that I think I just know who I am more. And that I don't know if it's because of this cookbook or because I'm 32. When did it start to happen? It's kind of always still happening because I backslide a lot. It's not like a cut and dry, like, oh, I've achieved this level of security.

I think that some days you're really feeling yourself and you're feeling a little untouchable and you're feeling like confident in who you are and the work you're making you're doing and it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. And then sometimes you're like, everyone else is doing better than me. And, you know, you feel bad about yourself and like, you know, not being nominated for like awards really, really cut to the core of me. I was really upset about that. And then I was like, but you know what? I love my book. Other people love my book. People are really using it. And like, that's all that matters. And I had to kind of like reset myself and be like, I can't waste my time. like thinking about the things that I don't have because I have a lot.

Yeah. But I don't think there was like one exact tipping point. And again, I don't know if it's like, I think in your early 30s, that's kind of when it starts to happen. Do you like being in your early 30s? Oh my God, I love it. I wouldn't trade it for the world. I feel I just, I can't imagine ever being in my early 20s ever again. And even in your late 20s and.

Well, you don't have to be ever again. Yeah, I know. Well, luckily, it's not an option. But I find myself so much more confident and okay with who I am and proud of who I am and less anxious and just kind of generally more okay with the things that happen. Because also it's also like, you know, if you live a certain amount of years, a certain amount of like unfortunate things are going to happen or bad things or disappointments or heartbreaks or this or that. So that by the time you get a little bit older, you're like, oh, I always know that even when it's bad, I'll feel not bad again. like to be like no matter how bad you feel you'll always feel that good. Humans are insanely resilient.

Yeah, exactly. And so it's kind of okay to be like, like I just, I went through a breakup in December and it was like, you know what? This is suck. This is sucks. And it's going to suck for a while. And the only thing that's going to help it is time. But I know that I'm not going to feel this way forever. And I didn't.

And I don't know. So, but just having that knowledge, you know, whereas when you're like 23, you don't necessarily have that knowledge because it's the first time it's happened. And you're like, how will I ever feel better? You know, and now you kind of realize I know that I'm going to feel better. Have you dated in New York City before? I have. Yeah. It's the fucking worst. Sorry. I have. It's the worst. It's truly just a brutal scene. But you know what? I realize talking to people in San Francisco and Austin and L.A.

It's bad everywhere. It's just bad. And as soon as you kind of realize it's not great and it's something that you have to do anyway, unless you're sort of resigned to never partner with anyone, you just kind of. like let it go and go on dates and hope for the best. Are you on the apps? I'm on a few apps, yeah. I don't find them especially helpful, and I also forget to look at them. So it's not that. I'm only on two of them. One of them is I'm finding less helpful than the other.

But anyway, I feel like I don't use them because I'm married, but I don't feel like they're so fun. That's a good reason to not use them. Yeah. You know who thinks they're fun are married people. Yeah. Yeah. Married people love dating apps, and single people hate.

them. Yeah. But even like I love meeting new people and the idea of getting to go to a bar and be like, there's going to be somebody who wants to talk to me waiting there because I'm preassigned it. You know what? That's a really good way of thinking about it. And it is easy to think that way.

But the problem is, that's not the problem. The problem is even getting to the place where you're like, oh, I want to talk to this person. Right. Right? Like that to me is even like the back and forth of the text conversation. I'm like, do I even want to like block out my Wednesday night to even have a drink with you? Like, are you that compelling? Like, is there anything about you that excites me?

And generally, the answer is no. But it's also hard because people don't know what to put on there. And so much of a person's vibe is the in real life vibe. And I'm pretty sure that I'm going to meet my person in real life. But I'm doing the dating out thing very passively, basically as like entertainment. And like, I realize that I just have to date. like I'm not going to like go to the bodega and meet my husband tomorrow. It could happen.

It could happen. I mean, I feel like in many New York movies, that's what happens. That's true. That's true. It gives you hope. My life is very cinematic as of late, I will say. What other cinematic stuff is fun? Oh, I don't know.

Just like jetting around the world and cooking for people. I'm feeling a bit Bridget Jones's diary these days. But not in a bad way. Wait, in a British accent way? No, just like in a single lady, like just, doing things way. I don't know. I've just used her as an example because she's pretty iconic. She is pretty iconic. I feel like I don't, I just don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing because she like gets all the happy endings, but every single thing that happens up until the

happy endings is like very painful to walk. Yeah. It's not as my life is definitely not as tragic as her. I'm like trying to figure out like who's the person in a movie or TV that I'm like more closely relating to. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. All right. Let's take a brief break so I can introduce you to one of my favorite products on the planet. If you know anything about me, you know that I can't do caffeine. It stokes my anxiety and it makes me feel really crazy and I was always so jealous of anyone who could reach for their morning cup of Joe and feel wide awake and also look really cool with their like mug and all of that. That was never me. But now I have my mushrooms and by that I'm talking about four-sigmatic. They're basically

medicinal mushrooms, not psychedelic, although my dad was very concerned by that when I told him that I was obsessed. And they come in these super convenient little packages that I stash in my backpack, so I have them wherever I go. In fact, most of the time when I'm at a coffee shop or at a cafe, I'll just order hot water and then I'll mix in one of my four-sigmatic packs so I can save some money, and I don't have to worry about them not having a tea that I like, which happens quite often because, as you can imagine, I have quite strict standards for what I consume.

So there are a bunch of different kinds of the mushrooms, and each one has different benefits. So I take a cordyceps in the morning to feel awake, and then I take Lionsman when I'm feeling that 3 p.m. slump, and it really helps me kind of focus and not want to, I don't know, go read a million blogs instead of doing my actual work. And then I take Rishi when I'm feeling stressed out or anxious, which for me, again, if you know anything about me, is quite often. I've turned into a bit of a mushroom evangelist at work and with my friends. People used to come to me for a tea to heal every ailment. I'd open up my tea drawer and I'd be like, oh, here's your blend for this stomachache or if you're feeling anxious or tired. But now I am a mushroom evangelist and people come to me to find out

which shroom they should use for whatever's wrong with them. People also ask me about the taste a lot. And I actually don't like culinary mushrooms very much. It's a weird thing about me. If you read my cookbooks, you'll notice that there aren't a lot of mushroom recipes in there because I just don't love them. They turn my stomach a little bit. But I find the four-sigmatic mushrooms to be really earthy and grounding. And I like the new formula. A lot of their new formula ones don't have any stevia or sweetener. And it's kind of an herb-y and it's a really subtle flavor. Okay, it's grounding. Grounding is like the main word I would go for. It just, it instantly sort of makes you feel calmer and and more present and whole, I think. I'd think of like an herb tea or, or, you know, or,

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and I am 100% obsessed with. That's one of my favorite morning drinks. I took a bunch of them when I went back to California recently and I used them all up on day three and it was very sad about it. So if you want to try them yourself and I highly recommend that you do clearly, it's become one of my absolute staples. You should see my desk. It's piled with four-sigmatic boxes.

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And all right, without further ado, let's get back to the conversation. Who would you want to play you as a character and movie? I think it's got to be Jennifer Lawrence. I just, she's the, I would love that. Have you met her? No, never. Have you met people that you're like totally starstruck by? Do you get starstruck?

I don't get starstruck, but I, I did. I met Alana Glazer the other day and I was such an idiot. I had nothing to say to her. I was like, hi, I'm a little. Like, I just couldn't be less interesting or funny or charming when I met her. Were you cooking for her? No, no, no. We were on like a comedy show thing.

But that was really funny because I was like, oh, man, that's so cool. And just couldn't play it cool for the life of me. Yeah. Somebody else I met recently, that was like very, I think I was like, it was only cool for me. No one else thought it was cool that this person, that I met this person. Oh, I forget. Anyway. But yeah, no, I don't really get Super Starstruck.

It was more just, I'm trying to think of who I would meet and in what capacity that it would be really cool. I did sign a book for Mariska Hardigay, aka Detective Olivia Benson. And that really did it for me. Okay, the namesake of Taylor Swift's cat. Oh, my God, that's right. Yeah, that's like so famous. Damn, you're right. I didn't even realize that.

I stopped following Taita on Instagram. She was boring me. I don't follow her, but my sister will periodically send the updates of her life. Yeah. Do you feel like people, have you had the experience of people getting starstruck around you? Yeah, which sounds weird to admit. I want to be like, no, not at all. But the answer is kind of yes that they have.

And is that, like, what is it like being on the other end of that? It's so weird because I'm like, they're like, you're just like a regular person. I'm like, of course I'm a regular person. I'm also a mess. Like I am a regular person who is totally unorganized and like, oversleaps and Mrs. Flights and does not have her shit together. But I, it's funny, I'm like, what did you think I was going to be like? You know? I'm like, oh, you're just so down to earth. But I certainly have not achieved the type of success that would afford me the luxury to not be

down to earth. Not that I would be any other way. But like, it's just funny that people would assume that like I wouldn't be a regular person. Well, I think there's something about people can buy your cookbook in their local bookstore. And then I also think that. people have a very skewed notion of how much money makes people make from a book. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, if there's a book in a bookstore and you wrote it, you must be completely loaded. Oh, totally.

A big fancy mansion. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I was just having this conversation with a writer friend of mine. And we were talking about, like, where to go to dinner. And she was saying, like, I was saying, I would invite you ever, but I just moved in. I don't have anything set up in my kitchen. I don't have a couch or a dining table. I have nothing.

I mean, you're here right now. We're sitting on the kitchen floor right now. Yeah. And she's like, well, I live in a, you know, walk-up, you know, clap trap and Greenpoint and, you know, the stove is from 1972. I was like, girl, Mike, what do you, where do you think I live? She's like, well, everyone always thinks that if you're a writer, then you might, you know, like, oh, we write for the New York Times. Like, we should be, we live in a brown snow. Like, no, we don't.

We live here. Well, and I do think some of it is like, it's weirdly top down in that you make so little money as a writer often that people who have a lot of outside means, become writers because they're the only people who can afford to become writers. Yeah. And then they live these fancy lives and then give this like, you're totally right. Yeah. You're like, wait, how do you, do we do the same thing? Like, how many dollars a word are you getting?

Well, I think it's a big problem because it creates a media culture often where a lot of the people who are the thought makers in society come from means and it's not sort of equally represented. Yeah. And not only that, but then the people that have those beautiful homes are the ones that get photographed or the ones that get covered because they're not. covered because they've got a place that they can do the thing. And, you know, when I was choosing where I was going to live, when I decided I wanted to

move out of my old spot, you know, a kitchen obviously was really important to me, but more important than that was that, like, be a place that I could actually entertain, whereas my former apartment, I couldn't really. So while I could have moved into, like, a new luxury building for, like, slightly more money and had, like, all the appliances and had, like, a kitchen. I don't know. I'm actually, what am I talking about? For my budget, I couldn't have found anything better.

My dream in life is to have a dining room in a kitchen that are separate. Yeah, exactly. And it's like a small dream. But like that's – and a bathtub that's separate from my shower. That's my other dream. That would be really nice. Like cloppa and then like it's another shower, yeah. Can you imagine if you didn't have people's like dirty feet in your bathtub?

What would that even be like? I don't know. So do you feel like you're going to leave New York? Because that is how you get all those things. You don't live in New York City. Yes, that's how you get all those things. That's correct. If I could figure out a way to kind of maintain the kids.

cadence of work and also keep writing these books and also do all the other things that I do. I would love to live outside of New York. I don't know exactly what that means for me yet. Like, I used to think that meant living in Maine. I used to think that meant living upstate. I used to think that meant going moving back to California. But I probably will stay on the East Coast. I just, I really like it here. What do you like better? I'm from California and I like, I find it so objectively better that I'm always like, tell me why this is better. over here. Oh, you think New York is objectively better.

Yeah. Yeah, I think California is objectively better, but there's something special about New York that L.A. just doesn't have. There's like, like, L.A. is nice, but like, L.A. is nice, but New York is, like, sexy. I don't know. There's, like, a difference about it. It kind of has, it's hard.

It's hard to live here. But, you know, it's also kind of hard to live in L.A. It's hard to exist. Oh, sorry. It's hard to live. It's hard to live. No, it's, you know, New York is so full of weird tiny treasures in a way that L.A. just, I think, doesn't have. And I love L.A. And I love San Francisco. And I love a lot of places in California. It is by far my favorite state. It's beautiful and it's amazing. And you can do a lot there with very little. But it just doesn't have the electricity that it has over here. And I also really would miss the seasons. I find the seasons to be extremely regenerating. And right now, even this one? I know. We're recording this in March, so it has been winter for so long by now.

For forever. Yes. And March is undeniably the worst month. And people always tell me it's February. It's March. Because March is still. March is basically February 2.0. It's just more February.

And you feel like you've earned April? Exactly. And it's not there. Emotionally and spiritually, we're like in April or in spring. We already have the first day of spring. You wouldn't know it. But it gives us more February. So March to me always the worst month.

And if I feel like I can get through March, I can get through anything. But it makes you strong. And it does make you strong. But ultimately, I really feel like that the seasons, you know, with food and with animals and with even humans, I think that they really, it obviously serves a purpose. And there's like a time to reset and, you know, plant figurative seeds, plant literal seeds, whatever. But just kind of like let the seasons dictate how you, um,

just like regulate your brain a little bit, you know, like, it's okay to be a little bit more internal right now and, and kind of inside and not make as many plans and kind of be less active, you know, creatively or whatever. Yeah. And then, you know, in the spring, feeling like energized and recharge and like you're going to come up with something new and feel a little bit more excited. Like people, the first nice week in New York and you know what I'm talking about, the energy in New York is infectious. And you never experience that in California.

Not once. Do you have that kind of energy? Oh, I'm so sorry. Not once do you experience that kind of energy in West Coast. That's interesting. Well, this podcast is called Healthier Together. Do you, what role, I know you do yoga and that kind of stuff, but what role does health and wellness play in your life?

Admittedly not as much as it should. I'm just learning now how to drink water for the first time. Yeah. So that's cool. It's not as hard as one might think. It's hard for me. I was just thinking of my way over. I was like, you know, I haven't had any water today.

Not thirsty. Oh, I like you. The trick is you wake up and then first thing you chug it. Yeah. And then my other trick, which I love is I take supplements throughout the day. And if I'm taking a supplement, I feel like it's like a reason to drink water. Yes. Like it's not a wasted effort of drinking water.

I'm like, oh, take my probiotic. Yeah. And then it makes it easier. That's good. Yeah. I try to take all mine at the same time. And then that's when I drink water from the day. Unless I'm doing yoga and then I,

I probably, I just am net neutral at that point because I'm just rehydrating from what I've lost. But in terms of like health and fitness, it's never been a thing that I've really focused on. I think that I could do a better job about it. But I also think that the way that I cook and the way that I eat are inherently good. Yeah, that's what I think your cookbook is interesting because it doesn't, it's not trying to be a health food cookbook. There's obviously a lot of cheese and which is healthy. And there's a lot of anchovies, which a lot of doctors are saying is one of the healthiest fishes. you can eat.

That's right. But it feels healthy and that it's like take real food and make something beautiful out of the flavors of it. Like you're not, you're not like strictly shapenies. Like here's your carrot. Enjoy the carrot. But you're really elevating the carrot with some fun funky flavors.

We're dressing it up. We're putting a carrot in a fun little outfit. Yeah, but you're honoring that it's a carrot rather than like trying to mush it up and hide it or ignore it all together. There's not like a ton of frying or anything. No. Yeah. It's just like a lot of olive oil and a lot of salt.

Yeah. It feels innately healthy. It feels like, I almost feels like respecting the food makes it healthy. Yeah. I think you're totally right. And that's a good really putting it. Have you had any sort of health or wellness like anxiety or? Oh, yeah.

I mean, yeah. I think especially like cooking for a living. And I feel like I've talked about this before, but I can't remember where. But, you know, feeling like you have to look a certain way to be kind of media ready when you cook food for a living and enjoy eating food for a living and like having that be your life and not always feeling like you look the way that you should is really used to give me a lot of anxiety. Were you thinking about being media ready before when you were just an editorial?

Yeah. Oh yeah. You had, I mean. Yeah. Just go to events and like hanging out of the Vogue. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah.

I mean, and I think that just being like, oh, if I looked like this, then I would, you know, have a show or if I looked like if I had that body, I would. be already here more, you know, and seeing the people and the kinds of women that were being covered for seemingly little other than like they were in the bandage trucks. Yeah. You know, and I'm like, oh, you cook. Like, I don't think you cook. I don't think you eat.

Right. You know? And then that whole, I'm sure you see this and deal with it all the time. But like the kind of intense wave of like wellness and nutrition and women being like paleo and gluten free and like this and that. and these women that write these books. And I'm just like, I just don't trust you. I'm like, how long have you been cooking?

Like, how long? Like, what's your ideal? And it makes me, it made me feel bad. I was like, oh, like, you're being covered because you are hot. You're a hot woman who, like, wrote a book, but, like, the recipes don't work or they're not actually good or whatever. And it just became, like, another thing that you could do is be a cookbook author. Don't take this the wrong way, but you're an attractive.

Oh, thank you. Don't take this the wrong way. I'll give you a compliment. But you have to know that you move through the media world as an attractive woman. And sometimes I even look around at these editorial jobs and I'm like, you know, if you had acne or you were really overweight, you wouldn't even be in contention. Totally true. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a totally valid point.

Yeah, I think that it was just, it's like something that I have like back. battled before of just feeling like if I lost 10 pounds I would be more successful. Do you feel like you're at peace with that now? Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that I'm actually like the more I work out and the more I kind of again just like age into feeling comfortable with myself. I mean like this is my body type. I'm always going to look like this to some degree. Like my body's always going to have this shape in this area and I'm always going to have the shape in this area and I'm never going to be smaller than a size whatever you know like I think when there's so many other people who would like be like I would love to have like boobs or like a

womanly body totally yeah and the grass is always greener and I think a lot of it has kind of come down to just like feeling better about who I am and not feeling pressure to look any different than I do or dress any different than I do or you know be thinner than I am or like more camera makeup ready than I know. You know, like, I just, I, the anytime that I have to get, like, hair and makeup done and I'm always like, please put as little stuff on my face as possible, because I just, I can't pretend to, like, be that kind of person. Yeah, that's fair.

But, yeah, but, like, I think that other types of anxiety and, and that aren't even related to body image, but just feeling like you're good enough and smart enough and clever enough and funny enough. And it's just there's so many people that do what I do. Yeah, there are. It's so hard to feel like you are going to be heard, you know? And having that anxiety and like learning how to let go of that has been really helpful because it does nobody at a service, especially not me.

So is it the outside affirmation that's helped or is it actually like something you've had to switch internally? I think a mixture of both. I think if you hear positive reinforcement enough times, you start to believe it. But it still takes a lot of inside work for sure of being like you're going down a negative, negative path that's not going to help you. Don't do that. You know, like having to constantly kind of remind yourself and that is a thing that I work on all the time with with a number of things.

I was just on the phone with my agent today and I was like, well, you know, I'm worried about this book and what if people don't like it as much as the front? She's like, stop. She's like, why are you doing this? Yeah. And I'm like, oh, you're right. This literally is just creating like a whirlpool of negativity and you just have to be like, I'm making a thing.

It's going to be great. Can't wait, you know? And it is and it will be. And I have a tendency to kind of go down these spirals and having the tools now to kind of be able to pull myself out of it and be like, nope, don't do that. Not productive. Not going to help anybody. Don't do that. Are you planning on having kids at some point?

I would like to. Yeah, absolutely. Because I know a lot of really ambitious people. That's always the thing that makes them finally get real perspective on all the stuff they're ambitious about is they're like, well, now I have a baby. Yeah, totally. Um, yeah, it's, um, yeah, I definitely want kids, which kind of makes it harder when you're very single. But I also feel like I'm enjoying being single. So I will kind of- So it's 32. Yeah, but I feel like that.

32 is very young in New York and like very old everywhere else. That's true. I'm from a very small town in California and I'm, all my friends are married with like three children. Yeah, exactly. So you kind of are like, oh, am I late to this party? I was the first one out of all my friends to get married and I was old at 30. Like I was young at 30 to get married and all my friends are like, what are you doing? Yeah. I know. My best friend is getting married this year and she's, she will have just turned 33.

But to me, I'm like, I can't believe my best friend's getting married. Yeah. I'm like, where are you going? Wait, I thought we were going to be single forever together. Amanda. But she's like, that's an absolutely appropriate and correct age to get married. Yeah. Yeah.

If not like old for the rest of the country. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of our friends from high school are pregnant or having kids. And it's definitely a trip. But I don't, I feel like most of the people I'm friends with the New York are kind of on my level. And yeah, it'll be interesting to see how a small human fits inside all of these plans I have. But I'm sure it'll work out. It always seems to.

Yeah. So I have a few questions that I'm asking everybody on this. And, you know, there are works in progress. But one of them. is what do you think is the best way to spend 20 minutes every day in terms of enhancing your life? Being outside. Anywhere? Even in like a city?

Yeah. Even if that means like you have to walk out. If you have a desk job, you leave the building. Go for a walk. Did you just to go for walks? Oh yeah. I had to every day. You just got to get out.

Just like walk around. Interesting. What was one really good decision you've made in your life and what was one really big mistake? Hmm. Oh, God. One really good decision was to move to New York. You were in San Francisco, right? I was.

Yeah. Were you nervous too? Yeah. But I was only supposed to move here for three months. So I was like, I'll move to New York for three months and get a job and just like work some more casually and just see what it's like and then I'll move back to San Francisco. And then I moved here in a month and a half I know. I was like, I'm not going back.

This is amazing. Yeah, I had a really good time. One huge mistake. Wow. I don't know. actually don't think of anything as being a huge mistake. I feel like retrospectively, I learn from every single thing that I thought was a mistake, but actually needed to happen in order for something else to happen.

People always say that and I'm like very jealous because I feel like I have so many. Like I'm like, that was definitely a huge mistake. Definitely if I could like go back in time. I wouldn't have done that thing. A few nights where I like drink too much and said something really stupid or I like took a job that I shouldn't have done because it was a disaster or whatever. Like, I've done tons of tiny things, but honestly, nothing that stands out enough for me to be able to alter the course of your life. What purchase have you made that's helped you the most to become healthier or happier?

Purchase. Something bought with money. Class pass? Oh. Class pass. If you don't know what class pass is, it's, I think it's only in cities right now. I think it's New York, L.A. It's in, like, 40 cities.

It's huge. Yeah. It lets you take fitness classes. Do you just like it because you can switch up and take a bunch of different fitness classes? Yeah. So you can kind of just, I mean, in New York it's great. Or, I mean, in L.A. anywhere.

I use it in every city that I travel to pretty much. Yeah. And if you buy it in New York, you can use it in Lowe. Yeah, it's sponsored by. Yeah, no. Give me that money, class. But it's nice because there's no excuse not to work out. You're not like, oh, I'm not near my yoga studio because there's a yoga studio next to you and you can work out if you need to.

Well, and you have an excuse to work out, which is that you've already dropped several hundred dollars on class. I think it's like $125 a month. Right. And then you're like, I spent $125 a month. I should like go move my body. It is a huge incentive. I've never worked out more and it's been like a total game changer. Have you ever been to a place in the world where you were like, okay, these people really got it right in terms of living a good life?

And if so, where was it? Yeah. I mean, I just got back from Oaxaca. I went there in January. And I'd been before many, many times. But there's a few people there that I know that I'm like, man, you really figured it out. What did they do? They like host retreats for people for creatives and like give mescal tours and like just kind of like live a life.

Yeah. You know, it's amazing. And then, you know, the people on the coast that live there that I met this one woman who opened a massage studio and kind of like a wellness center. And she's like, yeah, I live in Australia half the year and I live here half the year. And with my beautiful tan children. And we just kind of, you know, love to just be by the ocean. I'm like, oh, yeah, me too. You really figured it out.

Do you think you would be able to do that though? Never. Never. Like for like a week and then you'd be like, eh. I'd go crazy. Yeah. I'd be like, get me out of here. Get me.

Get me with a beautiful big apple. No, I would, that would drive me insane. I'm really bad on vacations, actually, and I'm really bad at relaxing. Like about just like doing nothing. What do you do when you're like, I absolutely do need to relax? Um, I go to the baths. I go to the baths. You want to find Allison go to the bus.

Yeah, go and stalk me at the Russian baths. Um, I find them very, they're very, very, they're very. What else do you do? I smoke pot. Can I say that? Yeah. I do that. You're from a place where it's legal.

That's true. That's true. Have you tried CBD? Yeah, that's pretty much what I invite. Do you smoke CBD? Yeah, I have like CBD oil vapes. Oh, that's cool. Which is like the most funny phrase I've ever said.

From California? Yeah. Yeah. They're cool. They're like, well, some of them are like TVBD blends and they have like CBD mints, but. I'm obsessed with CBD. It's great. I think it's revolutionary.

It's completely. revolutionary. In like a year, it's going to be everywhere. I hope so. It's so expensive. I have my medical card in New York, but it's... Oh, you do? Yeah, but it costs like, I don't know. What do you do? Do you smoke it? Or do you get like tinctures and stuff? I have friends in California who help me procure it. I'm like, sound like an old, I'm like, do you smoke? But I like edible. Like, I like like a 10 to 1 CBD, THC ratio. Me too. And I like, there's like these almonds by a brand called the Tori that are, they're so. good. I was talking to a woman who she ate the entire box, the serving size is two,

and she ate the entire box because she, like, couldn't stop. Oh, my God. Oh, but not in one sitting. No, I was like, is she okay? Should we call her? She, like, had to take a nap. But it was in one sitting just because they're, like, so amazing. Yeah. But yeah, I think CBD is like, it's going to revolutionize, I think, opioids. And then also, I take it for anxiety. Me too. Help me so much just to feel like a functioning normal person. Yeah. It's like taking a Xanax. It's literally like taking, I take Klonapin when I fly still. But yeah, it's like, it's natural clotapin and it doesn't have sight. I'm waiting for the others you to drop a little bit with it.

It's a plant. Because they're like, it also like eats tumors in a petri dish. And it's also like so anti-inflammatory. And like I'm just like it can't be that good. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm a huge fan. And then you're going to read to relax at some point when you go back into that. I'm going to read to relax at some point.

Yeah, I started reading and like I have this. I have little fires everywhere that I bought like three months ago. It's so good. And I read like 12 pages. Once you get like 30 pages in, I think that's when you hit the tipping point for that book. Yeah, because I had a few books. I have a really bad habit about reading two-thirds of a book and just being like, you know what? I don't care.

I don't care enough to finish this book. Well, you know, Gretchen Rubin says that, do you know who that is? She's like a happy, she's the woman who wrote the Happiness Project. And she's like spent her life studying happiness, which I have a few problems with, but outside of that. She says that you should never keep reading a book that you, like, aren't excited. to pick up every day because it's a sunk cost, you know, you've already spent the money on the book, you've already dedicated that time. And if you're just preventing yourself from reading other books, you'd be excited about, you know, it's like you're putting this wall between you and

actually enjoy it. That's true. It makes me feel like a quitter. You know, I'm like, I'm like, don't finish. People are like, have you read this book? I'm like, I started it. Like, it's bad on them for not entertaining you. Someone should have told me how bad it was. Why do you do the work that you do? What drives you? I really love it. I feel like I'm good at it. I feel like it serves a purpose.

I feel like it makes people really happy. It's just a good thing to feed people and to cook food. It's like it's pretty innocuous. Did you always know that this was like going to be? I mean, you dropped out of college to do it. Yeah. It's bold unto itself. Yes, it is bold.

And now I have all this. That's a joke because there's nothing in this. apartment. But it's a really lovely apartment. Yeah. No, I, I feel like as soon as I started cooking, I was like, this is what I do. And I never for one second consider doing anything else. I just was like, this is it for me. And especially once I started writing recipes and doing that whole thing, I was like, this is it for me. That's incredible. In today's world, especially where people, when they say the average person is like seven different careers. Yeah, I've had pretty much one. It's morphed. And definitely, you know, pastry chef is definitely not the same as a magazine editor is not the same as what I do now.

But, yeah, I've, like, always known. It's been for me. Were you an eater before you were cooking? Oh, yeah. I've been eating my whole life. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, you know, I grew up in California and we ate, like, trout and asparagus and artichokes and rice pilaf for dinner, you know.

But we also ate dominos once a week or Chinese takeout. And, you know, it was a pretty eclectic mix of food. But my parents definitely cooked, and that was important to them for sure. Are they like blown away by your success now? I think so, but they're my parents. So they kind of have to me. But they don't quite understand. I don't think they understand how big, like how, you know, like they're not like in the zone.

I think you have to be in New York or in media to kind of be like, oh, this is a big deal. Or like, oh, the cookies have really done something special, you know. The cookies. Oh, we don't have to talk about them. Just really fast. Okay. What the fuck is it about the cookies? Like they've gone, I've never seen.

I work in food media. And I have never seen a recipe go viral like them. And I do, I think they're really great. I think they have a super catchy name. And I think the salted butter is genius. Like, I think that's a way, I think people, I think this is what I like about your cookbook is that a lot of cookbooks are like, I'm just going to show you a different flavor for this food. And you show people a different way of using the food. And I think that's what makes it, that's what I think makes it so successful.

But even with those factors, I'm like, what the fuck, man. Yeah. I know. What the fuck? It's crazy. Same. And I keep waiting for it to die down. It's not dying down.

But like what the fuck? Like what? Did you know when you made the, where you're like, this is the viral recipe. No. You know what's funny? My, I remember the day we were shooting those cookies. It was like one of the last days of our second shoot. So it was like the end of the process.

And one of my photographers ate the cookie and she was like, you know, these are really special. And I'm like, are they? And she's like, yeah, these are really special. And she called it. And she's a baker. Yeah, I should text her and remind her of that. I don't know if she remembers. You should also have her hire herself out for other cookbook writers who want to know if they have that special recipe.

I know. But I just assume it's because we were hungry. We like hadn't eaten lunch. And we're all just like eating cookies for lunch. But I did not have any idea. I've never seen a recipe from a cookbook do anything like this. So I didn't think that any one of mine would do this. But I'm so happy that there was one because people see it.

And then they buy the book sometimes. Sometimes they don't because the recipe is published for free everywhere on the internet. Yeah. But I think for every, at least three people who see it, at least one person's buying the book. Which is great. And it gives it a longer tail than just like it came out. Totally. Yeah.

And it's like kind of like a gateway drug. You know, like if you like that recipe, if you like the headnote even, you'll really like the rest of the book. Because it's. People do like baking and like sweets. I find out. It's just so funny because there's only like 28, 30 recipes that are baking in the whole book. And there's 126 recipes. You know, it's not a baking book.

Which is interesting because you're back. background's in baking, but you say you don't like sweets. I just don't like sweets. I know. I think it's also because people are like, oh, it's not too sweet. And I'm like, yeah, because sweet things suck. And so I wanted to make a cookie that I would find enjoyable as well, which means there's a ton of salt in it. Yeah. And that's very necessary for sweets. If I didn't have a sweet tooth, I would, I feel like that's like my one health struggle that I like cannot. Yeah. Get over the hubbub. Yeah. All right. Last question. What is the most delicious, healthy thing that you've whatever you in.

Mmm. And you can define healthy however you want. It can be mentally healthy. I had a, when I was in Mexico, Mexico City this past January, I came upon like a person selling soup out of a cart and I sat down and I ordered it and my Spanish is like, okay, it's not great, but I cobbled together the order and they basically ask you what part of the chicken you want in your soup and I got a wing. it's basically this really brothy soup of chicken stock and then they give you like a whole

piece of chicken in there and then it has rice and chickpeas and you top it with cilantro and onions and radishes and salsas and lime and it's just the most it was so restorative and I think I was probably hungover so it made me feel like a million dollars it felt extremely healthy but it also just felt emotionally healthy it felt like somebody was cooking that for me you know like I had kind of walked down the street aimlessly I just had done a yoga class to and fix myself. And it was like somebody from heaven was like, I know exactly what you need and provided me with this like beautiful bowl of chicken soup with chickpeas and rice and everything.

And it was, I felt very taken care of. How do you know what to eat when you, I mean, you write food stories for places like bought up, but like how do you find those places that you eat at? I think you've just got to be intuitive about it. I think that you kind of just know like this place looks legit. This place does not look legit. So do you just literally, do you do research beforehand? I try to actually do little research because I find that once you think you know, then that's kind of what you limit yourself to.

And I find that the less I know, the better I travel because you're kind of just keeping it open mind. And I'm a big fan. I'm just walking around and like, oh, what's that? That looks interesting. And then sitting down and being like, oh, no, this is no good. And then I'll get up. Really? I'll, like, fake a phone call.

Or I sit down and it's like, oh, this was the move. This was a really great spot. Do you ask people when you're there? Totally. Yeah. I mean, a good rule of thumb is to always like find a bit. bar you like or a restaurant and sit at the bar and talk to whoever's behind the bar and and be like, where do you go for this? And like, what's your favorite that? And, you know,

over time, you kind of, and you talk to enough people and you notice enough people say the same place and you're like, okay, I'm definitely going to check that place out. Or because everybody's opinions, just because you have an opinion on food doesn't mean you have good taste in food. Right. So I think you kind of have to take recommendations and opinions always with a grain of salt and they're very helpful, but also be open to making your own decisions. And just because you haven't heard of a place doesn't mean it's not great. Totally. I actually have one more question about that and then I really will be done. These trips when you like travel to, you wrote the Oaxaca cover story, didn't you for a bonap a while ago?

They look so glamorous and cool. Are they that glamorous and cool in real life? Like is everything that one would dream of like, I got paid to go to Oaxaca and like eat a bunch of tacos? Or is there a flip side that people don't see? Yeah, I mean, of course they're fun and yeah, they're amazing and great. And that particular trip was pretty intense. We had two days to shoot that cover story. And I had gone back, I was there before to shoot the interiors. And that was a little bit more of a relaxed trip.

Were you shooting? No, no. Oh, Pete and Monk, who were amazing photographers. They shot the whole thing. But the cover had to be shot on the iPhone. Yeah, yeah. Creative director came now. It was like a bunch of us.

And we were just, it was pretty crazy because it was like, he'd be like, we need popsicles. And we'd have to just find popsicles. And it's like, we need fruit. We need nets. We need best. We need umbrellas. We need, you know, he would just kind of like shout these random props. And we were like, okay.

And like, yeah, basically. It was really kind of crazy and hilarious. But we had a really good time. It's all those things are fun. Photoshoots can be really stressful. Especially writing stories like that. There can be a lot of pressure. Especially in a place where, you know, some of the places we wanted to shoot were closed.

And, you know, some of the places we wanted to get recipes from, we couldn't. And, you know, there's a lot of sort of back and forth and figuring things out. adjusting when you're on a location shoot like that. But when you go down to write the story initially, or they just go to Oaxaca for a number of weeks and then come back with some, like, coffee? Yeah, that story was a bit of an interesting one. There was more behind the scenes than usual, just kind of like internal back and forth of like what the story originally was going to be

and wanted it ended up being for reasons outside of my control. but um so i don't know that's like the best example but generally speaking i think that's how it works for most travel writers yeah they say like here's your story and you're going to go down and kind of write it you can't trade me yeah i like i actually don't enjoy that process as much as i do um for especially for something like that like to be honest i think it would have been better served like written by somebody who is a real expert alwaka and that again like i mentioned yeah that wasn't what the story originally was supposed to be which is what why I was writing it and what it became.

I think it could have been done better by somebody else or I don't know. It's just, it's always hard when it's also like you're, you go down for five days and it's only your second time there. And you're supposed to be like an expert. Yeah. And you're like, well, I'm not actually the best person, but, um, I don't know. I have a lot of mixed feelings about that kind of travel writing. Do you feel like locals should mostly, when possible, be writing the stories of their places?

Yeah. Or, or you, or you, or you write a different. story or the story isn't like a guide to Oaxaca which really that wasn't the story. It was more like here was my experience and like you know what I really wanted to convey in that specific piece was like how magnificent and simple the food is and the reason it's able to be that way is because of how good the ingredients are and how like much of protecting those ingredients is woven into the culture there where they like are just very very dedicated to keeping varieties of things alive that we don't have access to and like that's what makes

them so special and you eat it and you're like, how is this possible that this is only two ingredients because you make that same dish at home in the United States and it's just never going to be the same? And that's okay. And I think so much of, you know, sometimes when you get into food travel writing, you're like, recreate this dish that we had in France or in Walker in Spain. And you can't because, you know, ingredients and the way that they're made and how they're made in the tools that they're using and are just inherently going to make your food different. And not everything's meant to be replicated. So that was sort of the point. And then, of course, we gave recipes for everything, but with the caveat that it wouldn't taste like.

Yeah, you're not going to get the same real deal. And you'll probably like have to run around to like 17 little grocery stores. Yeah, like like point, like too long didn't read, just go to Oaxaca, you know? Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit on your kitchen floor with me. Of course. This was lovely.

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big needle mover. The birch mattress is incredible. It is made with organic cotton, natural latex, and ethically sourced wool. So it has literally no. off-gassing. You can not smell anything right when you unbox it. It has no microplastics, no synthetic foams or flame retardants. And the wool makes it so breathable, which if you've listened to this podcast for more than five minutes, you know that I run very, very hot. Like I am a furnace. Zach has basically accepted that sleeping next to me is like sleeping next to like a little fire. And the birch mattress has been a game changer for that. It's made me sleep so much better like I can see my sleep score going up because I'm not hot all night long. It's also

hypoallergenic, which is really worth paying attention to if you find yourself waking up stuffy or congested. Dust mites in a conventional mattress can actually impact your breathing and your sleep quality without you even realizing it. And again, we need to be able to breathe to get good sleep and getting good sleep is the foundation of our health. And then comfort wise, Zach sleeps on his back and then I sleep on my side and my stomach. So we have two completely different sleep styles and we both wake up feeling really good, no aches and pains. CNN actually named the Birch mattress, the best mattress for side sleepers and Wired named it the best organic mattress period. So there you go. Birch has options for every kind of sleeper in your household. They have three firmness layers. I like the

Lux Natural, which is the medium one. And then parents, they even have a Birch Kids natural mattress. Birch ships right to your door. It sets up in minutes and it comes with 120 night risk-free trial. if it is not for you, they will pick it up for free. You have nothing to lose here. I want all of you to enjoy a deep, restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com slash Liz Moody for 20% off. That is birchliving.com slash Liz Moody and you're going to get 20% off, birchliving.com slash Liz Moody.