The Liz Moody Podcast - Ask The Doctor: Stress Edition—Exactly How to Identify and Eliminate Stress In Your Life with Dr. Samantha Boardman

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

Today is all about STRESS. My guest today is Dr. Samantha Boardman, who did her undergrad at Harvard before getting her MD Cornell and going back for a masters in Applied Positive Psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania. She now has a thriving psychiatry practice in New York City and a brand new book called Everyday Vitality: Turning Stress into Strength, which is available wherever books are sold. I wanted this to be the most comprehensive, helpful episode on stress ever. On this episode, we talk about: What stress is, and how to know if that’s what you’re feeling The 2 most science-backed ways to actually feel restored and relaxed in your off time How to actually figure out what your values are—and adjust your life to live by them Exactly what to do in real-life stressful situations, like working a job that you hate or having a chronic illness Science backed ways to deal with stress RIGHT now, in less than 5 minutes The best type of workout for stress The daily practices we should all incorporate to keep stress levels low How to stop doom scrolling and develop a less stressful relationship with the news How to become comfortable with uncertainty The 5-second antidote to jealousy An easy mindset shift to feel way calmer about politics and eco-anxiety How stress can impact weight gain, and how to mitigate that How to deal with stress caused by family relationships and boundary issues How to help family members who are stressed How to make your gratitude practice 100x more effective The one stress-relieving practice we should all be doing daily—but aren’t I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the episode, so tag me (@lizmoody) and Dr. Boardman (@positive_prescription) with anything you’re learning, feeling, or thinking! Enjoy!! PS: My Patreon is live! You can join Green Smoothie Society and get access to ALL of my green smoothie recipes and advice AND you can subscribe to A Very Moody Morning, my brand new morning show podcast, which drops once weekly and features casual, fun convo, super intimate Q&As, and more. Get all the deets at patreon.com/lizmoody. This episode is sponsored by Athletic Greens, makers of an all-in-one superfood powder that contains 75 vitamins, minerals and whole food-sourced ingredients, including a multivitamin, multimineral, probiotic, greens superfood blend and more, that all work together to fill the nutritional gaps in your diet, support energy and focus, aid with gut health and digestion, and support a healthy immune system.Visit athleticgreens.com/healthiertogether and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today. This episode is sponsored by Seed. Their Seed Daily Synbiotic is a game changer—it contains both pre- and probiotics, survives INTACT all the way into your gut, AND contains the most studied and powerful strains of probiotics out there. You can get 15% off of your first month’s supply of Seed’s Daily Synbiotic by going to seed.com and using the code LIZMOODY. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the healthier together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a cookbook author and long-time journalist. Today, I am so excited to share another edition of our popular Ask the Doctor episodes, which feels very appropriate to the time that we're living in. If you're new here, the Ask the Doctor series was built around the idea that these incredible doctors have so much genius information about transforming our mental and physical health, but the really great ones can be hard to find, tricky to get appointments with, and unfortunately very expensive.

So on these episodes, I invite on the people in the world who are the absolute best in their fields and I ask them all of my questions and yours about a topic. We have asked the doctor episodes about happiness, dental health, busting weight loss myths, hormones, longevity, gut health, anxiety, skincare, and more. So definitely check those out if you're interested in those topics. Today is all about stress. My guest today is Dr. Samantha Bordman, who, who did her undergrad at Harvard very fancy, before getting her MD at Cornell and then going

back for a master's in applied positive psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania. She now has a thriving psychiatry practice in New York City and a brand new book called Everyday Vitality, turning stress into strength, which is available wherever books are sold. I wanted to make this the most comprehensive episode ever about stress and to leave you equipped and empowered to tackle the causes of stress in your own life. We get into what stress actually is, what causes it, the two most restorative experiences as shown by clinical studies, how to deal with real life stressful situations like working a job that you hate or having a chronic illness, science-backed ways to relieve stress in five minutes or less, the daily practices that we should

all incorporate to keep our stress levels low, how to stop doom scrolling and develop a less stressful relationship with the news. This was very helpful for me. I have already incorporated Dr. Bordman's advice about this and it has made a huge difference. How to become comfortable with uncertainty. That was another one that spoke to my soul. An easy mindset shift to feel way calmer about politics, how stress can impact weight gain and how to mitigate that, how to deal with stress caused by family relationships, how to help family members that are stressed, better ways to deal with eco-anxiety and so much more. I have already started incorporating a lot of these principles, like I mentioned, that Dr. Boardman shares in this episode. And truly, truly, I cannot say this

enough. They're life-changing. Like, at least once a day I'll be like, I'll do something, just like I'll tweak what I'm doing a little bit. And I'll be like, oh my gosh, thank you, Dr. Bordman. This is so much better. And I can already feel these little tweaks accumulating. and I feel more peaceful, I feel more equipped to deal with the little challenges that just come with like being a person in the world these days. I would love to see any changes that you're making or thoughts that you're thinking as you're listening. So please share on social and tag both of us.

I am at Liz Moody and Dr. Boardman is at Positive underscore Prescription. And if this is your first episode of the podcast, welcome. This is a comfy and safe space where we talk about feeling our absolute best in every aspect of our lives, whether it's dealing with our stress or making our skin glow. Yes, I have the much requested skincare sessions episode where I talk to a derm about all of your questions and crazy treatments and products and all that that is coming up soon. So remember to subscribe so you don't miss that or next week's episode, which is the very first edition of how I got my dream. job, which is a new series that I'm starting, and I have a New York Times bestselling novelist on the very first episode.

Which reminds me, oh my gosh, I just said next week's episode. I can't believe I forgot to tell you this news. We are finally switching to weekly episodes. I know that you've all been requesting this for so long, but to be honest, I was just like nervous about taking on the workload. But this year, I finally got a long overdue manager. And honestly, I just realized that the podcast is my. my absolute favorite part of my job, and I wanted to start giving it the proper priority.

I've already been so lucky to have gotten this huge and lovely community that we have here, but to be totally honest, I'm just going to say it, I want it to grow even bigger so that I can devote even more of my time to it and I can reach even more people with these messages and be able to get on whatever guests I want. So weekly episodes start now. They will be out every single Wednesday from now on. And if you would like to celebrate the transition with me and help me lean into what we will call the year of expansion, I would so appreciate if you took a few minutes to share the podcast, either as a whole or an individual episode that would resonate with anyone in your life.

I would be so massively appreciative. If every single person listening shared the podcast with just one other person, we would double the size of it literally today, which is like absolutely crazy to think about. You could even share this episode because like I feel like everybody knows somebody who's stressed. And if you don't, who are you? And where do you live? And how? How? How?

Just tell me how. Jokes aside, I just want to take a really quick second to say thank you to every single person who's listening right now. I know a lot of you have been here for years since I was doing this on the side and working as an editor full time. And no matter when or how you found me, you listening and being open to diving deep and learning and asking hard questions and just hanging out with me here, you're the reason that this is my job and that I can have these conversations and share this knowledge. And it means so, so much to me. And I appreciate all of you more than I can ever express. and I've just been reflecting a lot lately on how lucky I am and how grateful I am to all of you as I'm taking this next step. And so, I don't know, just thank you.

Truly thank you from the bottom of my heart. Okay. Enough mush and a feeling. Let's get into Ask the Doctor Stress Edition with the amazing Dr. Samantha Bordman. All right, Dr. Bordman. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. I'm very excited about this episode, and I know that my audience is, too. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan. Okay, well, let's start with the beginning. I was actually really surprised by how many people wrote in and we're like, what is stress? Like, how do I know if I'm stressed? Well, it's a really good question. And oftentimes, we're the last to know when we're stressed out. It's usually people who are close to us who know, who know better than we do.

You know, the funny thing about stress is in a way it gets a really bad. name because there is such a thing as good stress. And when, you know, we are being sort of pushed in a positive way to do our best and our limits, you think of an athlete, you know, there's positive stress that actually can help us sort of be like, you know, it really enables optimal performance. But it's when we sort of go to the other side of that curve and we're super stressed out. And our stress isn't just acute to something that stresses us out. If you think about like a gazelle who is stressed out because she's been just. chased by a lion. But when she goes back to the watering hole and she's hanging out with her

fellow gazelles, she's not still thinking about how traumatic that was, that they're able to turn it off. And I think one of the, like the problem with chronic stress is, you know, we're not able to flip that switch. So that thing that sort of stressed us out this morning or on our commute is staying with us all day. And that, I think, is the, is a more chronic form of stress can be really, you know, takes a toll on our physical and mental health. And sometimes we think, about the big stressors in life that take the, like, the, you know, the biggest toll, like those big life events. But actually, it's this accumulation of little stressors and hassles in an everyday way that can take the biggest toll on our physical health and mental health.

And that's really why I wrote this book is I wanted to help us develop what I think of is little our resilience, like the resilience to help us manage, like the daily grind, the hassles of day-to-day living. Is the problem that we don't have like a chill watering hole? Like, we don't have. have that come down tools or that come down place, or is the problem that we have more and more accumulating stressors or both? I think it's both. I think we really don't do very well with that sort of dialing it down. And I mean, that watering hole, if it's the bar or like your sofa or doom scrolling on your phone, like those are not probably, you know, obviously they're

counterproductive, you know, and I think of those as vampires of vitality. But it's it's that, I think we have to think of, like, and also our own personal, like, resources. Like, when we're exhausted, we're feeling overworked or burned out. We are not eating well. We're not sleeping well. We're not moving our bodies in any way. I think that kind of, like, that also amplifies that stress. And the irony and sort of the cruelty of all of this is we often do the exact opposite of the thing that would help us feel strong.

What do you mean by that? It sort of amplifies our stress. like after a long day and we're exhausted or, you know, a bunch of things have gone wrong and those hassles are with us. That's exactly when you, you know, decide not to go to the gym. Or you think, oh, you know what, I'm just going to, I deserve this bucket of ice cream. I'm just going to stay up late and watch that series and, like, you know, go through eight episodes and blow through that and go to bed at three in the morning. That kind of, you know, that type of coping strategy that kind of maybe might in the moment kind of hold this illusion of being something that's going to. be restorative, but it's actually the opposite. And I think it's why sometimes even after a weekend, when we sort of spent a lot of it in bed and, you know, not really done anything, we almost have, like, guilty couch potato syndrome. Like, we just sort of feel more depleted. That's something that I

struggle with personally a ton is I'm like, am I giving myself me time, relaxation time that I need when I'm, you know, like, after a hard day, I go to TikTok and I just like scroll in TikTok for an hour and I'm like, I needed this. I deserve this. All of the things you just said. But I struggle with, like, is that a good permission to give myself or am I harming myself far more in the long run by doing this? Yeah. No, well, I mean, that's the thing. I think as long as you can time limit it is the key. You know, like I think that's what's really essential is if you can, at least in your, like, you know, some people like at the end of like the day, I think they just need to be like, you know what, I just need 20 minutes of this or I need to, you know, vent for. a little while or I need to do that one thing. I know it's probably not the best thing, but that's sort of

what I crave. It's my cotton candy. But then I'd say like, okay, but what are you going to do after that? Yeah. I think it's hard to like limit yourself. You know what I mean? It's just like, but then you're just tired and you're like, okay, I've been on TikTok for three hours and now I'm going to go to bed. Well, yes. And that's the thing. It's like that slippery slope, you know, of just feeling worse and worse. And then, you know, you're even more depleted. You're more exhausted. And then you end up even making another unhealthy choice because you're sort of feeling badly about yourself then too. You know, so I've often like to tell people like, you know, maybe think about like whatever you want to do, make the behaviors that you want to do easier to do. Like if it is that you want to go to

the gym, then it is, you know, have your gym bag packed. Or if you want to go for a walk, have a friend waiting there for you. And if you're not, you know, you'll feel like such a flake if you don't show up. You know, because even though you might like in your head in the morning, you want to go by like six o'clock in the evening, you're like, oh, I just want to cancel. There's nothing I'd rather not do than do that. But I think when you feel like you have to do that, then when you feel obligated in a good way, it's a good thing. Another, you know, recommendation for that is what it's called temptation bundling. And when you pair the thing that you don't really want to do with something you really enjoy doing, like, so that could be listening to your favorite podcast when you go to the gym and only

when you go to the gym, you know, so you're, you get to do something that feels good with something that might be a little bit harder to want to do. I'm doing that with podcasts and working out, and it helps so much. It's like, it's like, why was I just sitting here being bored and tired and angry the whole time when I could be listening to something that was really entertaining and it makes the time go so much faster? It's so true. And when you kind of treat yourself almost with that, it just, I think the drudgery of it feels

like less, less bad. And actually then once you start doing it and you really just get over that activation, energy of like actually physically getting to the gym or putting your sneakers on or whatever that thing is, you know, then then you're like, okay, this is good. You know, I've got this. And so I'm a big fan of temptation bundling. Is there something that you would recommend we do to like the forms of dealing with stress or like treating ourselves or whatever that are less good for us maybe like you mentioned sitting and eating a whole ton of ice cream or doom scrolling on TikTok or Instagram? Those are.

are designed to be more tempting to us. They're designed to be really hooky. They're designed to be really compelling and addictive. I'm truly addictive. They're wired to be addictive. So are there ways that you recommend dealing with that pull? You know what I mean? Because it's just like, it's so hard to overcome, especially at the end of the day when I have no willpower left in my body anymore. No. I mean, and it is, it is this gravitational force pulling you in that place. And look, I think we're all vulnerable to it and it happens to all of us, you know, more often than we care to admit. But there are ways, I think, to override that temptation. And here's like what I sometimes recommend to patients is, you know, make that behavior you want to do easier, which whatever that,

you know, as we said, the gym bag, I have one patient who always puts her jog bra off first thing like in the morning. And so in her mind, she's much more likely to actually, you know, go to the gym or go for a run after work. The other thing, though, that you can do is, you know, just make that thing that you don't want to do harder. Like, it is, it might be just turning off your phone when you get home or putting it in another room. So you just can't, in that like moment of weakness, reach for it when you would be checking for it. Another thing that I actually find to be really helpful is even when I go for a walk, I don't bring my phone with me. And I leave it at home deliberately and I'm out for an hour or whatever out in nature. And I'm less tempted to even look at it. And that that, you know,

I think every moment I'm looking at my phone that sort of taking away from even being outside. So, you know, I think make the thing that you want to do easier and make the thing that you don't want to do a little bit harder. And another way I think to hopefully, you know, that I think is helpful for some of my patients and for me too is to think about in those sort of stressed out moments, like what's the unme thing to do right now? Because sometimes, you know, we're always being told, like, be yourself, trust your feelings. But actually, they're like a range of versions of ourselves. And there's the version that's, you know, adhering to our values and really living them. And then there's the other version that's like, hand me that bucket of ice cream and

where's a remote control. So I think when we can be unused sometimes or even think of somebody who you would really admire, what would they do in this moment? You know, and it can kind of, I think, help you override, you know, and kind of close that gap between your intentions and your actions. because, you know, it's not just that we feel worse or more exhausted. I think when we're not doing the thing that we want to do, it actually is also like super depleting. And so there's some research from NYU about creating what's known as W-O-O-O-P. And so there's like four steps to this.

So the W stands for what's your wish? Like is your wish spending, you know, less time on your phone or more quality time with your family. And then the first O is what would be the outcome of that? Like, you know, how would you really feel if you were to do this? And then the next O is what's the obstacle getting in the way? And, you know, like really be really specific and pinpoint what that obstacle is. Like, well, it's just in my pocket or I just can reach for it or whatever. Okay, now what is your plan to override that? And I think just when you can create whoop goals for yourself, you're much more likely to persevere and follow through. And then also you're going to feel so much better because

you're sort of, you know, doing the thing that you want to be doing. And you're also going to just feel a whole lot better because of it. I love that. I'm going to try that for sure. Is there something that's like clinically shown to be really relaxing, like the opposite of that feeling of when you've sort of laid around all weekend and you don't feel restored at the end? Is there anything that like our baths actually really relaxing is reading a book? What are the best forms of relaxation? I would say with the most restorative experiences we can create for ourselves. It's really two.

It's being in nature. It's unbelievable the benefits that that has. I mean, I think the Japanese word for that is forest bathing. And we all have like nature deficit disorder and that we don't spend enough time in nature. And they say that kids who walk, through like a green space getting to school. They have their, they are able to pay attention more in school that, you know, there aren't complaints about them having attentional challenges, that just being outdoors also has this unbelievable ability to interrupt rumination. And, you know,

rumination is that horrible experience that often, like many of us share that is that like constant, it's like our own doom scrolling in our mind, you know, like, why did I do this? Why did I say that? Why didn't I do this? And when we're just sort of doing that repeated, self-flagellation around like things that have happened or even are concerns about what might happen. And rumination can be, you know, an on-ramp to anxiety and to depression. And one of the best ways to interrupt it, though, is by being in nature. Looking at natural language studies, people who are in the middle of a park have the same amount of sort of joy that they are, that they express as they, as people do on Christmas Day.

So I think that we really underestimate how much nature is restorative for all of us, even we know from studies that people who are recovering from surgery who have a window into nature require less pain medication. They recover more quickly. So I'd say number one, get into nature. And number two, this sounds kind of counterintuitive, but really the number one antidote we have for feeling stressed out and burnout is actually doing something for someone else. And it's sometimes the last thing that I think anybody wants to do or feels like doing. But when you actually do something for someone else, like you feel a restored sense of time, that time famine that you're probably experiencing where you're just like, oh, I just wish I had more time. You actually get a time feast from doing something for someone else. And it also creates a sense of self-efficacy, like that, you know, you're capable of doing something that adds value to someone else's life.

How does that intersect with the people? Like, I definitely feel like my mother-in-law is one of these people who is always doing stuff for other people and will put her own needs to the side to help out everybody else all the time. And I feel like women particularly take on that role a lot. Yes. No, I mean, look, that's like an extreme version of that. And you often wonder when people in those situations, like, what are they escaping as well? And I think, you know, sometimes I think in that complete almost like, again, it's almost like a self-flagellating way is. is there something that they're trying to escape in their own lives when they're so focused on adding, like you're helping others.

But the other, like the flip side of that sometimes, I think when we're told to focus constantly on ourselves and we're, you know, how am I feeling? What's going on in my head? What can I do to, you know, be more me in some ways that it can take us on a, like into this place of self-immersion. And self-immersion often ends up with rumination. And so, you know, I think we're often told, like, oh, don't put on your seatbelt, you know, don't put your own oxygen mask on before, you know, you put it on somebody else. And, you know, it's so these are, you know, either-or decisions that we need to be making and that our lives exist at 30,000 feet above, you know, above sea level.

But that's not actually the case. And I think when we're doing, like, it's a both-and, not an either-or. And then when we feel like we're actively doing something for somebody else in a way that is deliberate, that doesn't come with resentment or anger that is, you know, by definition, like has agency in it. And then we're not doing it because we feel guilty or, you know, that that leads to resentment or we're not doing it because we feel obligated or because we have to. But we're, it's a want to, not a have to. That makes sense. So how do you know when to change, let's say, like your attitude towards a situation, like you do your stress coping methods, you walk in nature, you do helpful things for other people versus changing your actual situation, like getting a new job or breaking up with your partner? You know, there's a range of, you know, ways we can direct, like how we're feeling about something, right? Like you can sometimes, you know, if you think about it, like you could situation select.

And by that, I mean, you know, if you got an invitation to a party, you know, your ex is going to be at, you can choose not to go, right? Or you could choose to go. And then you can, what we call like a situation modify. Like you could choose to go, but just not, you know, talk to him, you know, or talk to your friends. you could then also, there's, you know, then you can direct where you're going to put your attention. Are you going to keep looking over to see what he's doing and ask your friends, or are you going to focus on something else? And then, you know, once you're sort of feeling an emotion, you can reappraise it.

You can say, you know, what could I learn from this or is there another way to look at this? And then you can, a next sort of, the next part of that is you can suppress your emotions. And we all know, I mean, sometimes we have to suppress our emotions. Like if we're really angry about something, it's probably not, you know, productive to, you know, hit our fist against the wall or something if in anger. But sometimes, you know, anger, like suppressing an emotion is important. But I think the other options are better ways to handle emotions. And when people are faced with those bigger decisions around like those inflection points, like should I stay in this job or should I take that job on the West Coast or should I stay with this person or not? I think it's where you really have to kind of bring your values into the equation and think about

who is the decision that you're making in alignment of the values you care most deeply about. And I think that sometimes, you know, what I advise like patients around big decisions like that is to even like fast forward six months from now and you've made this decision, you know, imagine looking back on this decision and everything, like you made that right choice to move to San Francisco, you made that choice to, you know, and your family's on the East Coast and everything's going really, really well, you know, or imagine it went terribly badly. What are the, what are the reasons that it has? You really are making an informed decision about something and when you sometimes can do it from the future looking back and also considering like what's wrong with

this, what's right with this, how am I going to feel in it? And I think when you are consistent with your values, it can be a really sort of powerful way to lift you out of your immediate emotions of the moment. And we know with, like, this is something I always ask patients when they first come to see me is, what are the three things that you value most in your life? Like, write them down for me. And then let's think about, how are you spending your time and especially your free time? And I really like to like, okay, so what did you do on Saturday or how did you spend your hours on Sunday and like write it down. And people are often sort of taken aback by the gap between what they value and their actions and what they're actually doing. And I think part of therapy is kind of trying to

bring those two closer together because the more overlap there is, the more resilient I think they will feel in their daily lives. What are examples of values? Like are those very broad or specific? I like, you know, I think it's really helpful when people can get really specific and really bring their own values to it. But for example, you know, I really value my, you know, being close to my family. I really value my health. I really value sort of giving back to society. Like those sort of values that really at the core of who you are, like kind of make you feel most at home. And that that's the kind of the person that you, when you think of yourself at your best, you are embodying those values. And so for them, like I really like for people to kind of generate their own rather than

put them in their mouths and to be as specific as they can be about it. It's so interesting because that shouldn't be a hard question. But I feel like the world that we live in tells us so much about what we should desire and how we should feel that it's actually like I'm sitting here and I'm like, what are my top three values? Because I don't feel as in touch with like the core of what I actually want and I actually value, you know? It's really interesting you say that. And I think I'm actually finding that more and more with people is they have been so bombarded with messages around what is important and what isn't that they've actually not given,

given the space or time to even like reflect on what do I really care about. Like what how do I, you know, even sometimes one way for people to think about it is like what would my legacy be? You know, how would people describe me who know me well? How would I want them to describe me who know me well? Or, you know, if you can think about yourself at your best, what are you, what strengths are you embodying and channeling? And it's a worthy exercise. And I think it can take some reflection and some time to kind of think it through. But even if you have the space, I mean, I know everyone's got no time. But if you can even just take some time just to like write a couple of sentences down or just like, like, one, two, and three, like, what comes to mind and why? Like, why is this meaningful to you? I'm, I will definitely try that. Are there times in life that you just need to submit to being stressed that, like, trying to get rid of your stress will just create more stress, like when you have a newborn or when you're just started a new job, or you have a sick family member or something like

that? Or do you think it's always worth trying to bring those stress levels down? I mean, the thing I think sometimes is. in my field is that we sort of pathologize every type of distress, you know, and maybe we sort of leave people thinking like, oh, you should be happy all the time and not have any stress. And that creates its own form of stress, as you say. And I think the pressure in society to sort of be happy and rainbows and unicorns and smiley faces at all times is its own sort of form of purgatory, you know, because then you're feeling like there's something really wrong with you if you're you're not. I had had a patient who was really grieving about the loss of her grandmother and,

you know, was feeling guilty that she hadn't kind of bounced back yet. And it was so, you know, her response, it was perfectly normal, you know, that she, you know, was having a really hard time. She really missed her grandmother. And the idea that she was sort of feeling pressured to, you know, be, you know, back in, you know, her sort of like with her friends or hanging out and not like having those moments of just weight reshuffling from that place of thinking of her grandmother in the present tense than to thinking about her in the past tense. And it was really painful for her and not just the grief for her grandmother, but actually I think the pressure to be happy again. And I think, yes, as you were talking about earlier, that it's really important to, I think,

use and understand and sometimes even sit with what's upsetting us or what is, you know, negative emotion. And, you know, as long as it's not paralyzing us. And I think you can take negative emotions as data. Like, what is this telling you? Is this then a moment to then re-gole in your life in some way? I knew a psychiatrist who worked with families who, you know, we're in that unfathomable position of having a really sick child and helping them, you know, navigate their, you know, their relationship with their child through this, their relationship to, you know, their doctors with this. And, you know, when it became clear that there was nothing more that the doctors could do, you know, how important it was even for them as the parents were

understanding this unfathomable news was, you know, what would you hope for? then for your child. What do you want and trying to kind of like get them to articulate that their feelings? Like I don't want them to be in any pain. I want my, you know, daughter to come home with us. I want them to, you know, be surrounded by family and helping them facilitate that. And I think negative emotions, I mean, that's an extreme example, it can help us really re-goal and help us sort of figure out and navigate our way through something really challenging if we let them. That's incredibly powerful.

Can you apply that to maybe a less extreme situation than that? That's like one of my like heartbreaking situations is when people have a sick kid. But what about somebody who is in a job that they hate and they can't leave their job? So every day they're just like stressed about work, but they can't leave their work. How would you, would you have them be doing this sort of re-goaling thing? I'd really want to actually think about then, because sometimes I think the stress, like, is this amorphous cloud that hovers over us and that we're not able to, like, we just sort of see the shadows and it's just darkness, but we're not really even quite sure. Like, you know,

sometimes in the, like, you're in a bad mood and you can't even remember why, you know, whatever that, like, you're like, I know something pissed me off. Was it that an email I read? Or like, what was that thing that actually made me feel not good? And so I think negative emotions do have this way of almost like an amoeba. They envelop us. And what we need to do to, I think, get some control over them is to be as specific as we can about how we're feeling. Like, instead of just being like, I'm stressed out, what specifically are you feeling? Are you exhausted? Are you disappointed? Are you frustrated? What is doing that for you? And I think when we can be more specific about how we're feeling, the actual emotion itself, it's like literally cracking

open a thesaurus to get as granular as you can about how you're feeling, that exercise in and of itself kind of almost creates like police tape you're putting around it, you know? So it helps you sort of see it with more clarity and to think, okay, I'm really frustrated, this coworker of mine is just not, you know, working with me. And it's, and I can tell you the thing, the issue with that is that then I'm not able to, you know, get this project completed. And then I'm feeling like I don't want to see my, you know, manager who I'm accountable to. And if you can really distill it for yourself, I think you can also see then pathways that maybe you can change. Like, what are the things? Like, do you need to speak then to your manager?

Do you need to speak to that coworker to resolve this issue rather than letting this kind of percolate and just, you know, leak into every aspect of this? But if you're, you're doing that and you're being as specific and as granular as possible and you see like, you know what, there is nothing here that is going to change. Like there's no way I've tried this and I did that. And I've, you know, I've even sort of taken a step back and I've like tried to like reimagine or reinterpret or even reframe what's going on. You know, and I think if you've been through that and you're not seeing any place where your actions are having any impact, I mean, it's definitely then we're thinking, okay, time to re-gole and put my resume out there and maybe where is a place where

my strengths will match more with what that other place is looking for. And so I think that the rather than just sort of, I think, immersing yourself or swimming in that dread and misery, you're going to feel a lot better when you start taking actions, either to solve the problems where you are or to, you know, change where you are. Do you think that the options ever aren't available. Like, do you always think there's an option available to make your situation better, though? Or do you think some people are just like stuck at jobs and they're not going to be qualified for a job that would make them happier or a situation like that? I mean, I think it, you know, obviously it depends on what you do and who you are. I do think we have this sort of binary

bias in a way, sort of people are good or bad or this job is good or horrible. And to, like, we'll often sort of even judge our interactions. with others. Like we judge ourselves by, I think, our thoughts, and we judge others by what they do. And it creates also bias in us. Like, well, I cut that person off in traffic because I was late, but they cut me off

because they must be a horrible person. You know, and so I think what are our biases that we're bringing to this? And there's a, I mean, I think we all, you know, our thinking can be really distorted. I think, you know, a lot of research has shown we're pretty irrational people. When it comes down to it,

we don't make decisions. like using our rational brains, a lot of it's so emotionally driven. And that's a good thing. Like I'm a big fan of emotions of all kinds and emo diversity is what we call it. But if you're saying like, will that person be miserable no matter where they are? I think you don't want to rely too much, I think, on your environment. Like, oh, I'd be happy if I moved to another town or I moved to something. Like your problems often go with you in some ways. But, you know, you're usually not alone if you're in a toxic work environment or you feel that you're not appreciated in the way or in the work that you're producing. You know, you're probably not the only one thinking that

way. So it's not happening in a vacuum that you're, you know, that you're feeling this way. And if you talk to other people who are in your environment, you'll often sort of get the sense like, wait a minute, I'm not alone or not everyone's, you know, we often call it like duck syndrome. We often assume everyone else is having a really easy time. Like they look like ducks, like just cruising across the surface of a lake and we don't see their legs peddling beneath the surface like crazy. And I think a lot of us are ducks. And sometimes when you actually really take the time to have an honest conversation, you realize that, you know, people are having a hard time too. What about stress caused from something that you literally cannot move away from or change?

Like I know a lot of the listeners of this podcast, it's a wellness podcast, have struggled with things like chronic illnesses. Is there anything you would recommend in that type of situation when you're literally in the body that's causing the stress. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, though, I mean, where I think the research points us to in that is, what are the things that you can do that will help you feel strong within your stress? You know, and I think, you know, in therapy, sometimes I think we just try to get rid of all of the things that, you know, we try to sort of try to get rid of things.

And sometimes you just can't, you know, or we can dial down somebody's symptoms. but you can't get rid of them. But what I do know, though, is that we can help people feel stronger within their stress. And there's a wonderful woman called Dr. Ellen Sacks, who is a champion of mental health law. And she had a mental, like she was at, I think she was at Yale. And she had a psychotic break when she was in her late teens. And her family was told that she has schizophrenia, that she, you know, should be taken out of school. she should never really be stressed out again.

Maybe she could do some. Maybe she could work as a cashier somewhere, but they shouldn't stress her out in any way. And she said her family accepted this diagnosis, but they wouldn't really accept this prognosis that she couldn't thrive, you know, any way in the world. And she went back to school. She had therapy.

She had support. She had other psychotic breaks as well, but she was able to go on to Oxford. She got a law degree. Winna MacArthur Genius Grant, it's a champion of mental health law. And she has often described how people in mental health would, you know, they just don't want to challenge her or people like her at all. And she said the challenges and actually finding meaningful work has been this tremendous

source of fulfillment for her. And that, you know, even she has a colleague who also is schizophrenic who's in the law, who uses his law degree to, to, to, sort of help manage the voices he hears. And he says whenever his voices get loud, like, what evidence do you have for that? Almost, you know, channeling his legal background. But I think this idea that it's either or. And I think she embodies somebody who really has found wellness within her illness and finding these oases and sort of pockets of purpose and possibility and strength. So, you know, to your listeners who feel that, you know,

there are chronic issues that they cannot change, that, you know, to be the coping strategies they use that are, you know, hopefully ones that are, you know, helping them feel stronger, and they know what that is better than anybody else. And also helping them find ways to, to stay strong within their stress and, you know, whatever that is for them. And I think that, you know, we can find wellness within illness and strength within stress in those little islands. I'm going to look her up. That sounds like she sounds like an incredible woman. Is she still like doing work and practicing today? Oh, yes. I mean, she's a gladiator, you know, and just extraordinary. E-L-Y-N-S-A-K-S. Okay, I would not have spelled it that way. So thank you.

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stress, like some science-backed, actionable things anybody can do right now? Oh, like one thing you can do, if you're sitting down, stand up. Honestly, like that is like some of those like just postural things, even if like you're having a hard time at work or you feel like you're on the brink of tears for some reason. or you're having an interaction, like a negative interaction with somebody, physically move where you are and move your body. You know, and it's not even just like, oh, I'm just going to go to the bathroom and, you know, I need to wash my face or whatever, but actually just physically moving away from the moment that you're in will help you. Another thing is what I call like incidental ambulation.

It is not jog bra like, you know, you're going for a run, but it's just maybe being able to, you know, walk down the hallway or just physically move. from one place to another, that when we just a little bit of ambulance, like just moving a little bit can lift our moods. Another thing is our posture, which is so basic, is, you know, when we power pose, there's research, you know, Amy Cuddy's research from Harvard is business school, is that, you know, women, we tend to hunch over all the time, that we sort of bend in on ourselves when we're looking at our phones, our, you know, necks are down. And in addition to giving us smartphone face, is it, as I think plastic surgeons call it, is it, you know, it actually makes us feel worse.

Our moods are worse when we're sort of hunched over like that. So I think any opportunity to kind of, you know, put your shoulders back and sit up straight also, well, it's just an immediate mood booster. What about non-incidental ambulation or working out? Is that better to do, is there like a best type of workouts to do for stress? Like there seems to be a lot of debate in the online community about whether, you want to be really exerting yourself and kind of removing that energy from your body, or you want to be doing more like a yin yoga breathing vibe and not stressing out your cortisol levels.

Do you have thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I think you know what works best for you. Like, I've really learned, you know, maybe the hard way even that my finger wagging advice, like this is the way you have to do it. Anyone uses like the word should. Like you should. Like we also got to like all have to stop shudding on other people and on ourselves that, you know, like, you know what makes you feel better, you know, in that way. And I think that's, there's so much

conflicting information because people do react differently, you know, to cortisol levels in their body and feeling those stress hormones, you know, raging through them. But, you know, this is something that I didn't learn in medical school at all. And it was not something that was addressed in psychiatry residency either. You know, if somebody was feeling down or depressed, I would say, here, I've got a prescription for you. And, you know, we've also seen now studies that have come out of people who just did 30 minutes of walking on a treadmill, three days a week, you know, did just as well as anybody who took medication. And that also even nine months later, they were less likely to relapse. And they're not jogging at like 6.5 miles an hour. They were

just walking slowly. So I think no matter what just being like that incidental ambulation of any form is, is mood lifting. And I once was at a like a, you know, I had to go back to recertify my board, and like my board status. And I asked one of the professors there, like, you know, what about these lifestyle interventions, you know, what about, you know, diet and, you know, exercise interventions? And he looked at me like I was crazy as though he was like, that's for the social workers. Like don't, you know, it's sort of like, that's the icing on the cake to stuff. Like, we are doctors. We deal with people's brains and neurotransmitters. And I think we really undervalue this body mind connection. You know, like,

Like, I think for a lot of people in my professions, what you sort of think, like, everything stops, you know, blow the neck. And so much of what we, how we feel is embodied. And I think there's a lot of research that's something called behavior activation therapy. And it's really, it really promotes behaviors to change how you feel. Because I think we assume the opposite that like how you feel affects your behavior. But it actually goes the other way too, like what you do affects how you feel. Interesting. So what do you just think any, like should you be sweating every day? Is there a baseline you would look for to get those results of stress relief and feeling good? I mean, here's, I mean, what the literature says is that, you know, those people who live long and well into their 100s, they never exercise a day in their life, but they move constantly. You know, they're constantly on the move. It's when you look at the, it's, it's not the farmers in Sard. it's the shepherds because they always have to be, you know, moving the sheep around, whereas the farmers had much more seasonal work. So I think it is just movement throughout the day

in a natural way. And so I'm a big, big fan of that. So if those days, like, you really can't get to the gym or you're just not going to be able to, you know, work out in a meaningful way or without really stressing yourself out and squeezing it in in a way that just doesn't make sense and you just then feel so guilty, you haven't, then it's moving. Like if you ever, I mean, I haven't been in an airport that much in the past two years, but never take the skywalk, you know, always take the stairs. I, the irony is like I, my office is on the second floor of a building in New York and there's a workout studio right next to me. And I cannot tell you how often I walk by people who are just waiting for the elevator to go up to that one floor. You know, there's a stairway right to the side.

I think we're sort of often like waiting to work out or we're waiting, you know, to go to the gym. But if you can just build in more movement in your natural day, I mean, it is if you can walk your kid to school or just get off the subway a stop earlier or take the stairs and move a little more, you'll be surprised how much better you're going to feel. And especially on those days where you can't maybe do that more vigorous sweat, you know, heart rate pumping, pumping exercise that you're going to feel pretty good and it's really good for your body. Well, I think it's about reframing what you're working out for. Like, I think there's this idea of like, does it count or does it not count?

And if you're really thinking about working out and like, am I burning enough calories, am I losing weight in this way or whatever? You want, like, that's what makes our brains want to go for like, oh, it needs to be this big heart pumping workout to matter. But then if you're framing it in terms of like, this is cumulative, this is for my longevity, this is for my mental health. I think it's a lot easier to feel the benefits of those little interstitial movements. Oh, I think you're 100% right. And there's even research showing that actually our perceptions and beliefs about it affect how they actually affect us. You know, and so I think just seeing that from that reframed position of this is just good for my health and my body and my brain that you will feel a whole lot better. And it's amazing. I mean, I think our modern life is engineered a lot of that sort of incidental movement out of our lives. But it's not so hard to put it back in when we start thinking about it. Like there are so many opportunities, you know, even if it's, you know, walking your friend's dog or mowing the lawn or doing like those little things or, you know, parking a little bit further away at the grocery store rather than having to like wait and find that parking spot right next to, you know,

the entrance. So I think if we can be a little bit more deliberate about that or even going for a walk during lunchtime, like those little things that don't require sneakers or a jog bra, yeah, we feel a lot better. What do you think about breathing and breath work? I've become obsessed with this recently because I can't breathe through my nose and I'm getting my nose fixed in October so I can breathe through it. But like I've been reading James Nestor's book and I know that he recently did an experiment where he like closed off his nose and his stress levels like went up and his cholesterol levels went up and all of that I think. So like do you think that we should all be trying to breathe through our noses? Do you think that we should be trying to do extra breath work on top of that? you know, I am a huge fan of James Nestor, and it's funny, you know, again, in medical school, you just, yes, you measure people's heart rate and blood pressure, you know, but, and, you know, breath rate is something that's important, but it's really, by the way, I really don't think we focus it all on, on how we breathe or how well we're breathing. It's something that's, you know,

something that's happening automatically. And we don't recognize how often we're just holding our breath, too. And when I read that book, I was realizing, I had. have email apnea. Like when I'm sort of waiting on bated breath, then I'm not breathing and how much sort of more stressed out I feel when I'm not doing that. I mean, I think for a lot of people, they encountered some, I think some, like at least emphasis and felt better in breathing through yoga, that that was one place where it has been emphasized a bit. But I've been, as, you know, as per James Nester, even mouth taping recently. And you sleep so much better. and you just like put this like little stamp size piece of that special tape on your mouth.

And you don't wake up with that dry mouth. And I think you've got like a deeper, deeper rest. And also just sort of reminds you to keep to nose breathe when you can because you are getting oxygen more efficiently into your body. And I think we underestimate the impact breathing has on our mental state. And literally in the moment, I mean, we were talking earlier about things that you can do just immediately to feel. better. And I mean, you know, taking an inhale through your nose and a slightly longer exhale through your nose five times will immediately help you feel better. Do you recommend incorporating like meditation or breathwork practices into your daily life? You know, sometimes I think just adding yet another to do, you know, to the to do list is hard. But I think what are the ways that Maybe are there things you are already doing that you could attach that to?

Like if you are going for a walk instead of listening to music or a podcast, we're talking about, you know, temptation bundling earlier. But, you know, maybe is that an opportunity there to be mindful about how you're breathing? Or is it like as you're, you know, walking into your office or during the middle of the day? So I think there are ways that we can piggyback it onto things. I mean, yes, in an ideal world, you know, know, if you can take 20 minutes a day to breathe, you know, as James Nestor recommends, I think, yes, that would be wonderful. But for people who don't, it's even can be in your car,

are you taking that time to do it? Or you can, you know, do it and incorporate it maybe into other activities that you're already doing. Let's say for a second that we're just talking to the people who want to add things into their routines, either their morning routine or their evening routine or sometime, you know, during the day, is there maybe a few things you would recommend as a daily stress practice to kind of keep people at a baseline? Sure. I mean, I think number one, I'd say set your alarm to go to bed. I mean, I think that that is we're really good about like waking up and we're really good about putting kids to bed. We're not so good with that ourselves. And I mean, I think when I say set an alarm to go to bed, it's even kind of creating like a wind down hour

when you stop getting news, you stop looking at your phone, you unplug it and you leave it in another room to help you go to bed. I mean, I think that is like just a very basic practice that can help. I mean, and then again, I think going back to being able to spend some time outdoors, even when you don't feel like it, a study from Yale two years ago, I think said that on average, people spend less than five hours a day, sorry, five hours a week outdoors. And then I was like, well, not me. There's no way. And then you're like, wait a minute, like in the middle of the winter, like maybe that is me. So I think being deliberate, there's so many, you know, amazing materials we can wear even in the middle of the winter to bundle up and spends some

time going outside. I think even if you have the choice between being in a gym or doing that or even better doing it with a friend. I mean, we know from research that shows that people who exercise with a friend or play a team sport have fewer mental health days a month. They also feel physically better. I think there's something like the added benefit of the physical interaction and like the joy of the play that occurs in that is like even goes above and beyond the physical benefits of it. And, you know, and also with eating, I mean, we know that just we feel better when we eat healthier foods and just even a study of looking at people for four days being asked the equivalent of basically Big Macs and milkshakes, you know, we're in worse moods. They have less

energy. They can't concentrate. And it was so pronounced that even their significant others noticed. You know, so I think every time that we're sort of reaching for something that's like, you know, that comfort thing or we think we deserve it or we have like sometimes, you know, it's called the halo effect, like, oh, I've just worked out. I can do this. And it's, you know, it's probably not going to benefit our mood in any way. And it really is like not just cotton candy. It's emotional cotton candy and it's going to leave us feeling more depleted. Okay. I have questions about the scrolling thing and like turning your phone off at night and then I have questions about food. So let's start with the phone thing. Have you heard about revenge scrolling?

Uh-huh. Yeah. I think that's so fascinating. The idea that like we we almost like stay up in defiance of our days and like scroll at night to be like, well, this is my time and I'm taking it back. But we're doing like the worst thing ever for us is the antidote to that just to be like this is indeed the worst thing for you, Liz, even if it feels like something you want to do. I mean, I totally get that because it is sort of like, this is like agency. Like, I've got this. This is all me. But, you know, again, I think it's masquerading. Like, it's a vampire, a vitality every time we're doing that and we're really robbing ourselves because it's really not fulfilling. I mean, don't tell me any time you've ever revenge scrolled and been like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I did that. You know, like you never,

like I really learned a lot last night. And I think like we've all developed this, you know, we all know what FOMO is of like, and we used to really think about it in terms of like fear of missing out of maybe like social things. But I think during COVID especially, it got amplified by like fear of missing out on any news and this illusion even of like doom scrolling that I'm going to even get to the bottom of this and find out more information and see more videos and anybody else could possibly do. And then when there's that gap between sort of breaking news and actually the availability of actual information, like that we think we're all these amateur sleuths and can somehow, like, get to the bottom of it and get more information. And frankly, we never do.

It's only in the morning when you wake up and you, like, listen to or hear the digested version of that thing that you were, you know, trying to get to the bottom of. And it's really, it's, it never feels good. Like, you know, tell me one time that it's ever been like, ah, wow, like that light bulb went off in my head and I'm so glad I did this. And so, You know, it is one of those examples, I think, where these companies are actually, like, getting the better of us. Like, they're really tapping into our weaknesses and, I think, our longing for connection and knowledge and understanding and to somehow answer all the questions. Like, uncertainty is such an uncomfortable experience. And we've all had to deal with a lot of that

recently, you know, and with COVID and not having the answers. But, like, that revenge scrolling or doom scrolling is not going to get us any closer to certainty. Okay, I'm going to go back to the food thing in a second, but I have to ask because this is something that plagues me so much in my life. Do you have any advice for living in uncertainty? Yeah. I mean, I think A, making peace with it is a big part of uncertainty. I mean, I think that we can really help ourselves, like, so sort of like, it's an illusion that we sort of know the outcome of anything. But if you think about, like, uncertainty really being like powerlessness kind of times lack of control. So what are the things that you have some power over? Like list those and what are the things you have some control over? Like I can

control actually when I put my phone away. I can't control really what time I'm going to fall asleep, but I can control actually when I turn it off. You know, so those things that we're often like feeling like I read it about in the book of it like feeling like tumbleweeds, like we're being blown in all these different directions by other people's sort of whims or even by the way like the news is coming at us or by social media. And I think when you can at least like make peace with the fact, things are uncertain. And it's an illusion if you think you have like certainty about anything. And I think we actually have a lot to learn from like people who have who, who, I know Jimmy Chin who made free solo and he's also a climber. And I was really fascinated by.

Alex Honnold, who really goes into these unbelievably in uncertain situations and then, you know, is able to navigate his way through. I mean, he is stressed out, but it's in a sort of a superhuman way and the way they handle stress. And one thing they do is they really just, they see the variables that they can control and the ones that they can't. Like he makes sure he goes to sleep at a certain time. I mean, and he makes sure he eats well. And he makes sure he's so practiced and ready for it that he's sort of ready for anything then. And, you know, I think we have a lot to learn from people who've been sort of pushed to extremes about how they handle those things that they really can't control. And it's by, I think, really knowing what you can. So if I were to apply that to like COVID

and being nervous about being sick, it would be learn what the risk factors are, do what I kind of understand will protect myself. But then beyond that, recognize there's like a certain amount of it that's out of my control. Yeah. I mean, I think we know actually research. There are two papers that came out showing that actually people who wore masks, you know, who were, you know, really careful about what they were doing, who were social distancing, actually felt less stressed out by COVID.

I mean, another thing, like, we know that watching the news and just being exposed to endless newsreels around COVID, even around like other tragedies or traumas, that just that vicarious experience itself can really like just stress us out. So I think being able to sort of turn that off and say like, this isn't helping me because you're not going anytime you're ever watching the news and you're listening to, you know, people sitting around like pundits sort of going off about like predicting what's going to happen. That's noise. That's not news. Nobody's, predicting in the future. Like, I think the only news that we, that is helpful to consume is a digested version of what something that has happened that we want to know about. But I think beyond

that, it's just an added source of stress and it's amplifying like our dread and uncertainty that it's not, we're only sort of then getting to the illusion of knowledge. Like we don't have any added knowledge from it. Like it's the human desire for certainty that's causing us to like watch and watch and watch or scroll and scroll and scroll. But we're, It's like acknowledging that that is never going to provide us with the certainty that we want. Yeah. And I think like the opposite of that. And I think what has some people react too. And especially women, too, is I think they're so stressed out by the news and like, let's face it, is disheartening, you know, what we're constantly seeing. You know, so the other thing is avoidance. Like people are just saying like, you know what? I'm just going to turn it off. Like, I can't watch it at all.

And I think that also can be sort of stressful in its own way. And I do think it's it's human nature to want to be in the know. But you can choose where and how and when you get your news to just be really deliberate about it. And I think, you know, when you're doing that, that you're feeling like, at least you're the captain then, like you're back in like the driver's seat of how you're going to be digesting it and not having it sort of thrown at you all the time. And even as a friend, like don't forward constantly. to your friends, like doomsday stuff. Like, you are not- I feel like parents are weirdly guilty of this. Like, my dad will just send me articles that seem designed to give me an anxiety attack. And I'm like, why did you send this to me? I know. I mean, I think parrots get maybe a special pass on that.

But it's really not helpful in any way. And maybe just let him know, like, you know, share some good news with me. Like, I've been watching this too, like, share something good. And I think when we actually can at least maybe, just prime ourselves in some way. Like, if you're going to share it, like, just think twice about this and or even if you're going to post something on Instagram. Like, is this going to make someone else feel bad?

Even if it's like a sort of bragging picture, because we know it takes 17 seconds for a young woman to feel badly about herself by looking at Instagram, you know, so if she's just, you know, oh, I wasn't at that party. Oh, there is that person I was dating with somebody else. Oh, you know, my life isn't that good. And, you know, I think we have so much perfectionism in society. There's so much perfectionism on achievement and accomplishment and also like social perfectionism of like, you know, wanting to do all the right things and, you know, be perceived as this, you know, as a certain like caricature of like this social avatar of the person that we want to be perceived as. And there's tremendous pressure in that.

So, you know, I always ask people like just whatever you're posting. like might this make someone else feel bad? And then don't do it. I know. I think it's so tricky though. I feel like there's a study. It might have been funded by Facebook. So like huge grain of salt, obviously. But it was talking about how much of a surge of positive emotions that we get by posting like those bragging pictures. So it's like I'm helping my self-esteem momentarily by essentially hurting somebody else's, even if the hurting is unintentional. Well, one of the things I think that we can all agree and maybe even they would agree is passive. like social media consumption is like that's when you're just you're not engaging like you're not

commenting, you're not posting, but when you're just staring at what's going on in everyone else's life, that that seems to be like a source of stress and just, you know, misery and certainly a vitality vampire. Yeah, I feel like that's true of so many things. Like I think the antidote to jealousy is creation of your own in almost any category, which is, you know, is. just a personal opinion and not at all professional. But I found that to be true by life. I think we can find studies to back that up. I think it's 100% true because it really depends on like, where are you shining the flashlight? You know, if you walk into a dark room or you're shining it in the corner and looking at cockroaches, and that's because that's all you think you're going to

see or you may be lifting up that flashlight and seeing if there's a piece of art on the wall or a window to look out of, you know? And I think it really is where you're, you know, putting your attention and that attention deployment that we were talking about earlier is so important. And we're all, I mean, I think one of these emotions that a lot of like this sort of bad news and uncertainty can even tap into is around moral outrage. Like that is what like hijacks everything. Like anytime we're outraged by something and we need to vent and then share that. But I think, as you say, if you're being like generative or creative in some way, you completely defang that. And that's why I love that idea. I also think people can flate this.

too. Like I think what happens in social media a lot is that people are like, oh, if I post this or shout about it on the internet, that is my action when in fact the action is still the action. And you posting about it or shouting about the internet isn't contributing to ending the problem. So true. And, you know, during the election, there were, you know, so many people who were so engaged and outraged around the national election and, you know, would sit, you know, scrolling through social media and commenting and ranting and and, you know, screaming at the TV or whatever. And then when you ask them, though, you know, how involved are you in your local elections? Do you even know who, you know, is running locally, who your representatives are? They wouldn't have any idea. And I think so interesting.

Like, where does that come from? Well, I can send it to you. And the studies show that actually people who are engaged locally, then in their politics, it's, you know, in their town. And it's, you know, their city that they, you know, they feel much better even no matter what's going on on the national stage. I think we all became these sort of armchair politicians and so enthralled with, you know, this thing playing out on the national stage. But when like, and it actually like, but we weren't engaged at all in what was going on like in our back doors and, you know, outside. Which arguably impacts our lives and the lives of the people that we like love in our community more. Yeah. So I think even that community engagement aspect. And actually, as you say, it's actually doing something.

and it's not living in your head and living in that place of moral outrage. It's really taking action. Okay, let's go back to the food thing. I have a lot of questions about food. First of all, I feel like you're not going to give me a specific answer here for some reason, but I'm going to try. Is there a best type of diet that you recommend for stress reduction? I have found, like, just from my research, it's really been the Mediterranean diet. Okay, you did give me. I thought you're going to be like, no, just eat food, feel good. No, I mean, I think, though, in general, like that that seems. to be the one with the best, at least there's the most research around that on its benefits for mental health. I'm sure there are many people who could argue with me or nutritionists who could be more specific. But from, you know, I wish I could prescribe Mediterranean diet.

Okay. That's, that's a powerful vote for it. What about the relationship between stress and weight gain? Oh, it's very real. I mean, there is studies. looking at people who even have a lot of frequent everyday hassles. And then five years later, they're much more likely to have, like, their waist circumference is larger. So stress, I mean, if it's at a metabolic level that we're holding on to, you know, whatever we're ingesting, that maybe, you know, is somehow limiting our metabolism, the mechanism of that, I think, is still not quite figured out.

But we know that stress does, I mean, I think that it is, it does seem, we know people stress eat, and that's something to it. But I even think if you're eating the same as somebody who doesn't have that same level of stress, that you're at risk for weight gain, though. So is the solution to that just to do the stress mitigating things as much, like if you feel like your weight gain is probably due to stress, it's not, it's just incorporating as many of those stress-relaving practices that we've already talked about as possible? I would think so.

I mean, I think, you know, there's certain stressors, though, that we can't, you know, get rid of as we talked about, but if you can then be deliberate about maybe it with those hassles, if you can balance them or buffer them with uplifts in some way that will create this buffer around you and help you manage those stressors in ways that I think you wouldn't otherwise. I think the last thing you feel like doing when you're stressed out is finding uplifts, but I think that's probably the best way to do it. But also, again, it's in then making healthier choices around what you're eating and, you trying to move as much as you can, and that's also going to create that buffering effect around you. So it's like kind of, I guess, in your coping strategies and making sure you're not doing, you know, the opposite of the ones that would, you know, help you feel less stressed out. What about stress eating? Like we've touched on it a little bit with the ice cream earlier, but do you have any sort of specific advice for somebody who just raised their hand and was like, I am a stress eater? That is me.

Yeah. I mean, I think knowing like situation selecting comes up there. and I think doing and being aware of. And I think there's a lot of like stress eating that happens that it's almost outside of our awareness. Like if you go to a restaurant with a friend who orders something that like orders that like greasy hamburger and fries, sometimes it's like, oh, I'll just have what she's having. You know, it's like almost like when Harry met Sally that like, oh, we just like are disinhibited by that. And we don't realize how much other people's behavior actually affects our own. and that it's sometimes easier to just kind of go with the flow.

And we're not thinking about like, oh, I really didn't mean to do that. It just kind of happened. Or the other side of it is we don't recognize how often menus impact what we order. Like we're much more likely to order something at like the top or the bottom of a menu than something in between. Oh, they're designed like specifically to trick us. To lure us in. And they're also designed too to like, you know, I think even grandmas, you know, home baked, you know, fries or whatever. sounds so much better than like grandma's fries or whatever, like greasy fries for you.

So I think to be kind of aware of that stuff, and especially when we're stressed out, I think we're a little bit more vulnerable to that messaging. One thing I do recommend a patient sometimes is, you know, if you know you're going somewhere, like choose beforehand, like make that choice, pre-select what you want to do and what you're going to eat. So it just doesn't even come up. Like you don't even have like kind of go through the whole menu. You don't have to sort of spend that time or be affected by what other people are doing. You're just going to, you know, you've already decided. And when you pre-decide, you're much more likely to follow through. And does the stuff we talked about earlier about like limiting access to stuff, I don't stress

eat. I feel like at restaurants as much as I do just at the end of the day where I'm like, I had a hard day. I just don't, I want to like eat some sweets, some candy type food or cookies and scroll on my phone. Is that about just like not giving myself access to things that are going to make me feel worse? Well, absolutely. You know, at Google, they apparently had a problem that you know, when you started working, when work there, you had like access to the kitchen and they would have this endless supply of M&Ms that people were just consuming like just crazy amounts of. So they needed to deal with the M&N problem. And they knew they'd be a revolution if they just got rid of them. So they got some really smart people to come in. And they, what they did was they put the M&Ms, like they removed that they were in these kind of beautiful clear containers that were, you know, right at I, you know, where they could just like basically scoop. you know, the M&Ms out, and they put the M&Ms in opaque containers that were just kind of up on a shelf. Like you had to do that extra reach to go and get it. And they put then healthier snacks in like more like, you know, where you could reach them more easily. So they're much more

accessible and in these clear containers and made it look really nice. And, you know, obviously then people were much more likely to grab that and just not go through that extra effort of like, oh, let me go reach up for that thing. And it doesn't even look at appealing when you're not seeing them, you know, that glowing with their red, yellow and blue, you know, brown M&Ms, like, waiting for you. So I think, yeah, if you can, like, get rid of the stuff that, like, make it harder to make bad choices. So if you've got M&Ms in your desk, like, throw them out. I love, I love the idea of the opaque container two thing because I'm never going to be like, oh, you should never have a cookie and I'm never going to do that in my own life. Like, I think

that eating fun and delicious food is so critical. But it lets you take that moment of reflection of is this going to make me feel better in this moment or is this going to make me me feel worse than this moment? And that's when I feel the worst about eating that stuff is when, like, when I'm enjoying a cookie and I'm like out having a picnic with Zach and I'm like, oh, licking like the chocolate off my fingers, I'm like, this is what life is about. I love it. But when I'm just like shoving food in my face on the couch scrolling TikTok is when I just feel so shitty about myself, my body feels shitty. And I think minimizing the access and creating that moment of reflection is really helpful to avoid that latter situation.

Yeah, and I think as you say, like, it's actually when you're enjoying it and when we're enjoying, like, in the company of somebody else. You know, there's studies looking at people if we're eating chocolate, if you're sharing a piece of chocolate with somebody else, that, you know, it's rated is tasting less good if the other person is distracted, you know, or looking at their phones. So, like, every time, you know, I think that we're sharing a meal and your phones on the table, like, we're basically, like, unsharing something and the food's going to even taste less good. And I think in a way that, you know, as Americans, we have such a complicated relationship with food. And there's an interesting study looking at people in Europe who were asked in France, specifically saying, tell us about your favorite meal. And they said, oh, well, you know, it was, there are candles. We're in this beautiful setting and this tablecloth and in this, like, lovely room in describing it and then describing the meal. And I mean, you know, but Americans were much more like, yeah, it was this good hamburger. You know, and I think that we have such a conflicted relationship with food and don't see it in that sort of larger sense of the ritual around like the shared experience together. And that, yeah, it's very different like shoveling like a box of like cookies when you're distracted and you're sort of half doing something else and you're sort of like stress eating versus like when you're eating it and purposefully by yourself or with somebody else that like you're really doing it for the pleasure of that, you know,

divine, heavenly cookie. And there's something wonderful and loving and that shouldn't have any guilt around it. Like, that's just the celebration of food and something that tastes good and not something that should be making us feel sort of guilty or self-loathing in some way. Let's talk about some of the relationship stuff for a second. What if stress is impacting somebody's sex life? Do you have any advice for that? I mean, it happens a lot. And it's the way, you know, when I, you know, people often say that they'll, they sleep much better. after they've had sex, but then the last thing they feel like doing is having sex when they're tired, you know? So again, it sort of like goes back and forth. And, you know, I think from looking

at studies of couples who are, you know, happy together is that they make time stress or not to have sex. Like they will find the time. And if it's like when the kids have gone to bed or, you know, on a certain, like typically it's, you know, if it's on a weekend or whatever, but they will make that time to do it and make it a priority in their lives and recognizing that it's maybe not quite as much fun when there's stress going on, but that they'll sort of feel more bonded and closer. Yeah, I always find it fascinating how like when I, it's, especially when I get into like a dry spell, sometimes I'm like, oh, like the last thing I want to do is have sex right now. But then when I do, I feel so much more connected to my husband.

I feel like lighter and happier in life. And it's just so annoying that my brain works in that way, that my brain can't like recognize the outcome, which is the same almost every single time in those earlier parts where I'm like trying to convince myself to do it. I'm like, oh, I don't need to do that ever again. I'm fine. And then I do it. And I'm like, oh, my God, how is I not doing this? Yeah. I mean, I think it's amazing how our brains just mislead us all the time in the moment. Like, we constantly like mistake, you know, things that are going to make us feel better or happier, you know, and we think those things that we will. And we're completely wrong about it. And it's ground hugged day all the time.

Why does it do that? We know we're going to do this. And I think sometimes, like, that's where we really have the power to override, though, our inclination. Like, oh, I don't feel like having sex. I just want to watch TV or I just want to, you know, whatever, look at TikTok or whatever those things are. I just don't, you know, feel like going to the gym. I just don't feel like this.

I'm going to feel so much better. And we just have to, like, be on ourselves and know that we can override it, you know, and maybe create environments to make it as easy as possible to do the things that we want to do. But no, every single time is going to be Groundhog Day and to just, you know, and when we override it, we will feel a whole lot better. And I think as you say, you'll feel closer to your partner. And it's almost like restorative in some way. And they say that like within relationships, it's that experience of, you know, invisible support a lot, like that sense of like felt love that like you're loved in the world. And even when like everything's going wrong or

you're feeling like there's a lot of hassles and you're having a bad day, like knowing that that other person sort of has your back and is there for you is so meaningful. And I think sex can be a big, contributor to that experience of felt love that is, I think, creates this wonderful sort of buffer and armor for like everyday hassles. So in a nutshell, if you feel like you're too stressed to have sex, perhaps you should have sex? 100%. And just also, I mean, I'm not sure like with the audience. So one of the, you know, people often think that there's this intimacy desire paradox, you know, that like, oh, the like more comfortable you are with each other, like the less desire there is. and so that, you know, there's everything that's passionate at the beginning, and then, you know,

then people are too comfortable in front of each other, and then that just dwindles. And there's, there's no desire when there's too much, when there's so much, like, you just know the person so well. And actually, like, you know, all the research shows that when, like, our partners, like, are just, like, when we're nice to them and they're nice to us, like, just, like, having that a kind of everyday kindness embedded into our relationships and really being, you know, making that a priority in our everyday lives is that that's what fuels desire. I also feel like I think that's such a dumb, like it's an annoying thing to hear because I also feel like my husband and I've been together for, I don't know, like 13 or 40, like a really

long time. And I feel like the more I've gotten to know him and the more I've gotten to know myself, our sex has gotten better because I've been like, this is what I want. We should try this. Tell me what you want. Like the, the communication has made our sex so much better over time, you know? Yes. Yeah. Well, it does. And when you, when, when, when, when, when you let it, and it is part of that. But sometimes I think when people are just so familiar and so use for each other, and they're not prioritizing it in any way, I think the idea really around it is like, it's just like that simple sense of communication and being responsive to the other person. And even, you know, just being able to be like, I don't really feel like it, but actually that's going to make me feel

better and actually initiating sex. And even when you don't feel like it sometimes can actually just bring you closer and that when you are in throughout the day, even like those little gestures of kindness or like little things like, oh, you know, your husband filled up the tank of gas because he knows you've got to drive somewhere tomorrow morning. You know, like those little things that you might that even occur outside of our awareness. I think. actually are such a powerful aphrodisiac, even like those little things that go such a long way. Because it's that like silent support thing you were talking about. It's like, oh, somebody has my back at this world. You're listening to the healthier together podcast.

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Oh, it's, you know, it is brutal out there. Though I have seen actually with some patients, too, is they've actually been kind of intrigued by some, like, looking for single people who, you know, are similarly on their own who are really much more interested in finding a partner right now. And I mean, I think that there's been some sense of clarity of like, wait, maybe it wasn't that much fun that thing I was doing or meeting all those different people and not really having somebody who I could rely on in some way and who was, you know, there for me and available for me. So this is, it's made them actually. sort of, I think it's made other people they found on some of the websites that they use

being much more proactive and seemingly much more interested in having a meaningful connection and relationship with somebody. So that's been sort of a positive of that. And even being able to sort of, an upside being able to sort of meet somebody on Zoom or have a tele, like a call with them too to kind of vet that and even not having to go through that awkwardness where you just know it's not going to work. So that that's been like something that I think even moving forward once people can meet together, like that they're going to probably include a lot more of those pre-interactions as well. And, you know, I think that there's a certain clarity many people have had around their values over the past 18 months or so.

And that that's even patients of mine who weren't so interested, you know, in finding somebody who seemed like a little bit more so or someone else saying, like, I'm just so grateful. I don't have anybody right now. Like, the last thing I'd want to do is, like, I just, this has been the last, you know, I'm really happy on my own, too. And beyond that, would you say that it's that same sort of uncertainty principle that we talked about where it's like you control what you can control, you go on the apps, you put yourself out there. But other than that, you kind of like acknowledge that you meeting a person who's a good fit for you is out of your control. I mean, that's definitely a good way to think about it. But actually, like, it is, yes, taking those actions, I think what feels

worse is just thinking about it. Like, oh, I should put my profile up or like, you know, and what's sort of stopping you from doing that? And that would maybe even go back to like the whoop goals we were talking about before. Like, okay, you know, close those intention action gaps then. Like if you, if this is going on in your head and it's something that you fall like you're, it's, you know, percolating in your head, but you're not really doing anything about it. That means tomorrow, like you've got to put up, like, you know, a dating app and have a friend do it with you. Like make it fun and laugh about it and help you find your profile picture or whatever that thing is though, but close that intention action gap because we were talking about,

I think when you're just, you, you were thinking about doing something, but you're not doing it. And it's like just this source of inaction that's often like goes hand in hand with like being a source of stress. And is there anything that you would say to somebody, like if you had a patient come in and they are like, I'm doing literally all of the stuff. I am on all of the apps and I am just feeling like crap and like I'm never going to meet my person. And I don't want to go through life a little. what would you say to them? You know, I think that like helplessness of throwing your hands up in the air, what is that, what is that doing for you right now? Like, is that a window? Is that information for you to be thinking about? Is that sort of what you are sort of looking for a way out to think like, oh, I'll never find anybody. This is never going to work out. If you're thinking of it, like, this is permanent. this is personal, this is pervasive. I'll never find anybody.

I'm going to be alone forever. You know, that, like, are you, is this a trap door that you're sort of using as a way to sort of get away from the vulnerability of putting yourself out there? And even sometimes, you know, it's very easy to be dismissive of even somebody who, you know, at a patient who had a really hard time with, like, people who were, she felt were too nice because she was always sort of waiting then. She's like, well, they're probably not that nice. And then she would sort of preemptively reject them in ways.

Just sort of she was convinced that she knew, she said, like, I know the end of the movie. I know that this person is going to be this way. And I think we can get into that pattern of predicting how things are going to turn out. But I think that's often like information, like when we are predicting the end of the movie or like, oh, how things are going to turn out like, this guy's going to be a jerk or, you know, I'm never going to find anybody. This is probably serving some vulnerability. and need within us or an insecurity in a way that I think needs to be unpacked.

That's so interesting. I think I do that a lot, like not in dating because I've obviously been with Zach for since the beginning of time, but I think I try to predict the end of the movie a lot. And it's also interesting how like pretty much every time I've tried to do that, I'm wrong, but I don't file that away as like, oh, I was wrong every other time. Yeah, you know, there's a woman, she's the first tenured female professor at heart. Harvard called Ellen Langer. And she said, you know, when sometimes couples would come to her after 50 years of marriage saying, you know, they wanted to split and they wanted a divorce. And she said, nobody's ever come to me saying like, oh, I want, you know, to break up with my dog or, you know,

my child or my plant even. And she said there was this really simple explanation that with our partners we're just, we think we can predict everything about them. Like we think that we can, you know, here they go again, they're going to do this, and then they're going to watch TV, and then they're going to shuffle to the kitchen and, you know, get a Coke, and then they're going to do this, and how that predicting of and that almost illusion of knowledge of who they are can really, like, dampen our expectations, like that we just, like, this illusion of knowledge can make it unbelievably, like that person's so unappealing. And the thing about a dog or a plant or a child is we're always expecting them to change. Whereas with our partner, we think we know them so well that they're

never going to change. So she had always recommended, just look for something, like look for three things each day that's different about your partner. And if you can sort of find that, like, that's the essence of mindfulness. It's looking for difference. Huh. I love that. I think that applies like universally to relationships. I'm even thinking with like parents, sometimes we get stuck in old patterns of relationships with them. Like I think with friends, like I think you can get stuck. and a lot of patterns of like this is who this person is, and I definitely know who they are, rather than allowing them to evolve and grow in all the ways that we are hoping to evolve and grow ourselves.

Yeah. No, and I think you're right. And I think it does dovetail with like when we also allow for them to change, we also can allow for ourselves to change. And how important that is. And people change, you know, when there's studies looking at that and especially if you want to change in a certain direction, if you would like to be more extroverted, behave in ways that are more extroverted and you will be if you want to be more conscientious, behave in ways that are more

conscientious. And I mean, I think that we have these fixed ideas about ourselves and other people that, you know, kind of dovetails with our longing to pursue certainty and to think that we know how things are going to turn out or will turn out or how somebody's going to behave or if they're going to remember to pick up, you know, milk from the store on the way home or whatever, like, I'll never remember that. Or maybe they will. But it's just, I think, our long to be certain actually can distort our relationships with other people and even our relationships to ourselves. And actually, there's something really beautiful about them being unknowable and also even

ourselves being unknowable. And there's something wonderful about being wrong and being surprised, you know? Yeah. It's like, what's that like a chimera? Like, I'm pronouncing that wrong. But like I picture like we're all little shimmery balls of light that are like ever moving. effervescent and ever-changing, and that's like really, it's pretty. What about dealing with stress around maintaining boundaries? Like, I have a series on this podcast called How I Learn to Love My Body. And a big

theme of that that comes up over and over and over again is people dealing with parents that comment on their bodies all the time and having to reinforce that boundary. And I know, you know, my friends who have kids have parents sometimes who are overstepping their boundaries around that. And that seems to be a big source of stress for a lot of people. So is their recommendations there? I think sometimes the biggest source of stress is like feeling our boundaries have been crossed, but actually when the person crossing them isn't aware of it. You know, and I think our failures sometimes to communicate to somebody, like this is something you can't cross. And even like recently as people have been, you know, vaccinated, people I know of who've been, you know,

out and about, and one person, like, you know, who goes in for the bear hug and the other one being like, wait a minute, I'm not ready for this hug. And, you know, at one point, I think without, without, like, not knowing what to say when this cousin of hers went in for the bear hug, she just sort of, like, stood there frozen. But, like, then she realized, like, this was a problem and she was angry and annoyed that that had happened. But then, like, moving forward, she's like, I just have this line to deploy, like, I'm not ready yet, you know? And I think in a nice way, that that communicates your boundary and your warmth. Like, I'm so happy to see you, but I'm not ready for hugs yet, okay? And I think you can, again, I think that communication of clear

boundaries to other people is greatly appreciated. And then also you get to leapfrog over a lot of the resentment that can stew and just build up and accumulate over time once people are crossing boundaries that they might not even be aware of. And then the question is, what about, like, people who are aware that they're crossing the boundaries that you've clearly laid out and they're doing it anyway. And then I think you have to situation select. I mean, I think you have to go back to that place of how much of this can you tolerate or do you want to tolerate in some way. Like, is this then choosing them to see them at very specific times or saying like, let's agree not to talk about food or, you know, my child's weight or whatever. I'm so excited to see you. But can we, let's,

I think that that's not a productive conversation. And I think when you can frame it in a way that isn't fully negative or hostile to them around like certain topics that you just know or if it's politics, like let's agree that we're going to disagree. So, you know, for the sake of everybody, let's not, you know, bring politics to the dining room table. You know, so I think that it's, if it comes from, if the intention is one of connection and that you want to maintain it, they're much more likely to receive the message. And if they bring politics up at the dining room table, is it like we need to just get up and go or what happens then? I mean, I think it can be like sometimes they probably can't help themselves, but is there a way to kind of bring this in and be like, we've agreed and

you can just say to the group like, hey, everyone, we've agreed not to have, you know, last time this didn't end well, let's all go home still liking each other, you know, so you can diffuse it by taking control of it. And I think sometimes we don't, we're almost like pathologically polite sometimes as women that we just think that like, oh, somebody else can bulldoze us and let this happen. And we can speak up and redefine that and kind of draw again like some police like, you know, the chalk around this thing that we don't want to do. And if then nobody's going to agree with it, I mean, then you have the choice of wanting to leave or not. But just standing up and marching out, like, give them the chance to be like, oh gosh, I'm sorry or let everyone else help throw, you know, some water on the fire by

agreeing not to have that conversation. So I think it doesn't have to be so either or there are so many points of entry into like, you know, maintaining those boundaries or even reminding people of it. Because sometimes, especially like with older family members, sometimes like they just, it's almost out of habit and they need to uncouple the dining room table with political conversation or something. and it just comes so naturally to them. So maybe it is. It's also like finding other topics to be to choose instead. You know, like let's talk about, you know, whatever is going on,

climate change if that's not going to be, you know, also politically charged in some way. But are there other topics that maybe you can, I mean, one way, especially I think with older family members, is asking them about their history and their past. And actually having, even if you have kids, having them understand who your family is. And it's interesting how little grandchildren know about their grandparents, you know, at all.

Like, actually, where did you grow up? Tell me about school. Give them the platform because I think they will enjoy telling those stories. Children really benefit from listening to them. And there's actually research looking at this as children who really know their family's story, like the arcs of the challenges, like the triumphs, the difficulties, like the up and down, are actually much more resilient because I think in their own lives, then, they're not bringing to them this expectation of, like, achievement or success

or, like, you know, that story of like everything turns out really well all the time that kind of, you know, every fairy tale has in it. And having that, and especially if they have the opportunity to hear it from an elderly person in the family about, like, how things were really hard during the war. And then, you know, then they moved here with their father. They used to help them with their mom. All those little stories, I think, help them get a bigger picture of life and develop perspective when it comes to their own challenges. Yeah, I love that. My father-in-law grew up during the Great Depression and the stories that he can tell are, they're so fascinating. And you just need to give them like a trigger word to get started. And he's like off to the races.

He loves it. So it's really, and it's just such a cool insight into history that you can only get from this first person. It's like a real life example of what resilience really looks like, which like you said isn't like fairy tale and rainbows. It's like stuff was hard. But I made it and like making it isn't necessarily like running through the airport for the kiss at the end of the movie. Making it is this real whole human self that I'm presenting to you right now.

Yes. I know 100%. And that, I mean, I think that there is such benefit in hearing like the arc of other people's lives and in a real way and not that like everything turns out well, you know, and I think we really have to as parents and be cautious around the stories we tell our kids, you know, and actually letting them hear that you struggled a little bit at times, like, school was really hard sometimes or, you know, this is how you learn to overcome that, that difficult period is, I think, really beneficial for them to hear that it hasn't just been rainbows and unicorns. Well, and we can ask that of

our parents. It's been something I've been doing. more in my life is like tell me about a time you really struggled, dad, or, you know, like, how did you get through this period or what was that like for you? I think you can kind of prompt them that it's okay to have those conversations with you if you're on the other end as well. 100%. Also, to the conversation topic point, there was a point during the pandemic when we were doing Zoom calls and I think it was like around the election. And I literally just started bringing conversation starters to the table or to the Zoom calls. And they would be stuff like, you know, what's a childhood memory that made you really happy or like, what was your

favorite movie that you were obsessed with in your 20s or stuff like that, just like totally random. And it feels so contrived, but it was actually it started, it's almost like sometimes we need an extra boost to get out of these conversational grooves that we're in. And I think literally like Googling some conversation starters is not a cop out. Like it's a very effective tool. Absolutely. And like sometimes, you know, Angela Duckworth had looked at, um, sometimes you know, thinking, what was it like, would you, would you rather questions? Like, would you rather be smart or lucky? You know, like that kind of thing. And just those questions that, yeah, it can feel sort of cheesy, but actually people really engage in them. And it's a way to kind of get to

know somebody in a very different way. And they'll often surprise you, especially like people who you think you know so well, but actually like you really don't. Absolutely. Is there a best way to deal with partners or family members or friends? who are stressed themselves? Yeah. No, I mean, I would definitely say, you know, if they're really having a hard time, it's, you know, make sure that if you, if they, you were concerned about them, or you feel like they're just not kind of, they're having a hard time in general,

just getting through the day to seek professional help. But, you know, going back to that idea of having, providing that emotional, like, invisible support in ways, you know, and it was looking at a study of people who were studying for the bar exam. And the partners who said to the students who are studying, like, all the time, like, are you okay? Are you sure you're okay? Are you really okay? You know, sending that message of, like, I really think you're not okay and I'm really worried about you, even the way parents sometimes interact with kids that way.

They can make you feel like maybe like you shouldn't be okay. It's like having a friend who's like, you look really sick. You sure you're not really sick? And you're like, maybe I am sick. You know, and so, but providing that sense of sort of that, that, that, you know, that you're showing up for them, that you may be like, oh, you picked up their favorite ice cream at the store on your way home because you knew they'd be craving it or they hadn't eaten, you know, dinner yet. Those little sort of invisible gestures or even might be slightly

visible gestures of support, I think, are ways to be tailwinds for people who are having a hard time. And, you know, I think often we talk about people who, when they're having a hard time, how do we be there for them? And it really is showing up for them. And I think even if it's, friends or partners who are feeling down, it's sometimes when they can almost be most rejecting or not responding to our text messages or not, you know, responding when we leave the messages or call them. But I think it's when we just keep showing up for them and showing that we're there for them and sort of just knocking at the door in little ways if it's just a little gesture of, you know,

I'm here for you. I just then, you know, I know you're busy or if, you know, when you feel like talking, I'm ready. But like I just send them like a friend had sent another friend like a book that she thought that the person might like just to keep that to know that they're loved and to know that you care deeply about them and to convey that through your actions. I think really powerful. So with like texting people, because I have a lot of, I live nomadically right now. So a lot of my relationships aren't people I can pick up ice cream for or whatever.

I could do the book sending thing, which is great. But like would texting them, hey, how are you doing? or like how are you coping with X situation, that would fall in the first category of being like, you look sick, are you okay? I think that can be like maybe if it's like, hey, I'm thinking about you. You know, give me a call. And I think we can do, like you can do it over and over and over again, you know. And I think that it gets to like just so they know that they're loved.

Okay. And so whatever your relationship can communicate in that, I think is really powerful. And even if it might be sending them a letter that they might receive in the mail, you know, or just like a cute photo of you two from a period of time just to know that to remind them that no matter what, you love them, you're there for them. And maybe they're in a certain place right now or they're not feeling like communicating. But if you can make sure you're constantly communicating that sense of felt love and that you're there for them, that I think is, I think even when people are really feeling down, just knowing that you're there,

or even maybe on the other side of the door, but that you haven't walked away is really meaningful. God, I tried to write my friend a letter the other week, and I was like, wow, I have lost every single muscle in my hand that allows me to write long things. I was like, how did I ever use to write essays? It made me really sad. It's hard.

I need to work on that. I need to work on my hand strength to get back into letter writing. I had a friend whose husband just emailed everyone in January saying, It's her birthday. I know none of you guys can be here, but can you please just write a note to her, and I'm going to put them all together. And, you know, I was like, oh, my gosh, how am I going to do this? And then I spent like 20 minutes one afternoon writing this letter. And I've got to say it was so gratifying and fun and thinking about all these memories and putting it on paper. It was hard, though, because I hadn't done that in so long. But, you know, I had to go through actually several pieces of paper. But it was fun. And I actually really love doing it. And I know she really loved receiving it.

And it stayed with me. And like just thinking about it makes me smile. It kind of goes back to the stuff you were saying at the beginning, which is like doing stuff for other people is actually a great way to reduce your own stress. And I would put that in that category of trying to make somebody else feel good can actually be a stress reliever for us. Absolutely. And there's a lot of like research even around, you know, gratitude. And, you know, in the pop literature, we hear about like, oh, you know, my. gratitude lists. But I think we often get gratitude a little bit wrong is that we're making gratitude

all about ourselves. And when we're expressing gratitude, it really has to be to the other person for what you are grateful for in them. It's not that like, oh, thanks for that thing that made me feel really good. Like, what are you grateful for in that person? What is that about that person? And just writing a line about that. And research shows that we tend to keep gratitude to ourselves too often and that we think the other person knows, and especially in our closest relationships, you know, with our close friends or family members that you're like, oh, the other person knows, or gosh, it'd be so awkward. What would I say? They'll laugh if I do that. And we're really missing these opportunities to actually make them feel good. It will also make us feel good. But,

you know, I think to have this connection of doing that, and we underestimate how, like, the glow that they will have from doing that and from putting it into words. And they don't care that we, you know, write the most sort of beautiful, articulate letter. But just by saying that thing and what it is that we appreciate about them and why we appreciate it and, you know, why we admire them or whatever that is, putting it into words, I think, is a really, really powerful exercise for us. And then they have, like, they're the beneficiaries of it. I have a wall in my office that is just, I call it my gratitude wall where I just keep letters that anybody's ever written me there that it's just so nice to look at. It's like just this reservoir of goodness, you know, there. And somebody took the time

to write something down, to find my address, to like write it down, to put a stamp on it. And again, going back to how do you get yourself to do this more easily is make it easier, like, if you have some stationaire, if you have stamps there, make sure you have like people's addresses, you know, it's those little things that then will make it a lot easier when you feel like, I need to write that person a note. What are your things? thoughts on gratitude, journals, and journaling in general, are those effective in the research or in your personal experience? I think it depends on the prompts you're using. And I think as, as I was saying about gratitude, like don't, if you're going to write gratitude, like, you know,

journals make sure the gratitude is other oriented and outer oriented. And also just for journaling in general, be careful about ruminating in it. So, you know, it would be thinking again, like, okay, picture yourself. Like, what are you like at? your best. What are your top five strengths would be something you could journal about. But I think when you, if you are using it as a place to ruminate and just sort of get stuck in that place of why is this going on, why is this happening to me, and immersing yourself in that sort of self-focused immersion where you feel kind of paralyzed and there's no way out and you feel like you're kind of writing the same thing over and over again, maybe rethink what you're doing

and like consider the prompts that you're using rather than just like using it as like a blank slate to just unleash. And I think the prompts can be really powerful and helping you sort of lift yourself out of self-immersion. Are there prompts that you like if somebody wanted to just have a few questions they go with every day? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, what was uplifting in your day today? What are you looking forward to doing tomorrow? You know, what are you hoping, like I'll often ask patients, like, what do you, like, what are you looking forward to doing this week? Like, what do you hope to feel when you come back in, you know, and see me next week in some way? And so I think being deliberate about seeking delight in your everyday life and even sharing that

sometimes with others, there's this wonderful book I read last year called The Book of Delights. And the writer who talks about how he, every single day he chose, he found something like something ordinary that delighted him. It would be like a bird on his windowsill or something. and then he would write a paragraph about it. And how over the course of the year, he realizes when he used his delight muscle, he was able to build his delight muscle. And when you prime yourself for noticing things,

that you become much better at noticing things, like when our expectations are negative, that's also, it's much more self-fulfilling as well. And so I think our expectations really shape our experiences. It's like with the experience of dread, for instance, Like dread is sort of different to anxiety because dread is usually kind of specific. Like it's something that we fear that's imminent that we know it's happening. Like I always think of anxiety is thinking there might be a monster under your bed.

Like dread is knowing there's a monster under your bed. And I think people right now, there's a lot of collective dread that people are experiencing. So one thing I've been suggesting and even like writing about it is actually like be really specific. Like describe what is this dread you're feeling. Then use some of those self-distance techniques. of what would like a fly on the wall say about this or if a friend were telling you about what you're going through, what would you advise them to do in some way? And I think that is a way to kind of keep your dread at bay and to feel a little bit stronger about how you deal with your

dread. And the other way to deal with dread too is to actually use distraction, like, you know, with something that can uplift you in some way. And I think that those are sort of powerful dread relievers, but to even go back to the journaling aspect of things, think about opportunities like, where did I use my strengths today? What was a positive interaction that I had with somebody today? And I think when you know you're going to be accountable in writing for it,

you're going to probably be much more likely to create it. Can you apply the dread thing just like as a really brief example to something like climate change, where I think a lot of people are experiencing a lot of climate anxiety right now, and it doesn't feel like there's a lot we can do. And I don't know what a fly would like say to me to make me feel better about it. Yeah. No, I mean, I think like eco-anxiety is very real. And even people are calling it eco-grief. You know, and I think that it's the, you know, and I think there's a difference between, I think people who are almost like vicariously experiencing it and not living in flood zones and who are the

the ones who are actually, like, you know, living with these effects and who are experiencing the very real and concrete effects of climate change. That's like their real experience is very different from this sort of distanced eco-anxiety that people are feeling. And I think especially now in light of that report, too, people are feeling like helpless and hopeless in light of it. But going almost back to what you and I were talking about before is that, you know, you single-handedly might not be able to change the world, but what are the actions that you can take in your daily life or in your community that is going to help you feel like

you're actually contributing to helping and solving the problem in some way? And I sometimes think that in my profession, we're so quick to pathologize something like, oh, people have eco-anxiety as though that's something that's individual, that that person is so worried and, you know, distressed by their anxiety. levels about this and that, you know, oh, we can maybe, you know, just prescribe something. Like, actually, like, eco-anxiety is not something that we should pathologize so quickly. I think it's something that's so real and that if these, like, you know, inflamed passions

and concerns can actually fuel more movements in terms of what people are doing about it, I think, like, how can we use that in a productive way rather than sort of looking at individuals and diagnosing them with eco-anxiety? is that something that's pathological? Yeah, it's so interesting because with individual actions around something like climate change or global warming, I'm always sort of hesitant to be like, well, you should stop using straws because it's like I think the real change needs to come from governments and big corporations making systemic changes to have an impact.

And I think putting that impetus on the individual is almost a distraction. But if you reframe it is like your individual onus is mostly, just to make yourself feel better. Like maybe the straw thing isn't going to change the world. And obviously you need to keep voting and trying to push for this larger systemic change. But the straw thing might make you feel like you're taking action day to day. It can have validity. But it is something that I struggle with.

Yeah. No, I mean, it's sort of like, I mean, in the same way that I think people who were cleaning, like with chlorox, every package that arrived from Amazon, you know, that, you know, that probably that wasn't making that big difference in preventing you from getting COVID, as we learn more and more about it. But I think when we do feel like we are taking some action. Yeah. I agree with you, though.

I think, yeah, no, you know, drinking out of metal straws is not going to solve a problem and it's an illusion and a delusion to think that it will. But actually, when I think of taking action, it is more in getting involved in organizations and creating that change on a, like, having, feeling like you are at least part of the process in confronting and voting differently and being able to. to be involved in your community level of change rather than, yeah, like, yes, you know, if it's making sure that you're not, you know, using plastics and, you know, you're doing your part in bringing bags to the grocery store. Yes, I don't think that's going to save the planet,

but I think your involvement in engagement in organizations that are working towards affecting change at a policy level will also, I think, maybe help help you feel like you're being your actions are at least oriented towards making a difference. That makes sense. Okay. Last two. One, we've talked about this a little bit with the news, but I'm curious if there's like things you think a lot of us are doing every day that if you could like wave a magic

wand you would get rid of because they're just like us causing ourselves stress on a regular basis, that we could just like swipe or X out of existence. In addition to the doom scrolling and like our endless. appetite for news, I would say to consciously uncouple, like this is just a little bit more specific, like Gwyneth style, like to consciously uncouple every time that like you are, like you're given a moment, like, you know, even if like your meetings canceled, like isn't that the exact moment that you like start like looking at your phone or even though if you're standing online somewhere, you start looking at your phone or you're sitting waiting for someone to meet you at a, like a cafe

that you'll then just like turn to your phone. In those moments, like take advantage. We actually have more free time than we realize. Like take advantage of those moments to just sit with yourself. And, you know, if it's, you know, if you're in an Uber, you know, instead of just like look out the window, talk to the human being next to you. Like I always think of like the three Cs. Like if you can have a meaningful connection with somebody,

and in a moment, if it's talking to the barista, if it's talking to the Uber driver, if it's even, you know, I was talking to a friend of mine who's a hairdresser, she's like, nobody talks to me anymore. They're just looking at their phone. So just connect with somebody. Look them in the eye, have a conversation that isn't, you know, that probably hopefully isn't like about your doom scrolling, but like put that phone away. Number two, I'd say is if there is an opportunity to contribute to something, and I don't think that means going, like, you know, joining the Peace Corps. But like, if it's knocking on your neighbor's door, if it is just like, you know, holding that door for somebody, letting them,

you know, in and a lane on the highway. Like those little things are just so small, but they can uplift you. And the third thing is just when you feel like you are, you're, challenging yourself in some little way, if you're learning something, if it's a new word, or you're learning something that, you know, you can share with somebody else and be like, oh, wait, that's kind of cool. It's funny. Like, this is so counterintuitive, but one of the biggest stress relievers of people, especially who feel burned out at work, is having a hobby. And I think a hobby is something we don't really think about anymore is, you know, anything meaningful. I asked somebody a couple of years ago who I was interviewing, like, oh, do you have a hobby?

And she looked at me like I was, like, do you collect stamps? Like I was like some ancient librarian or something. But like doing something that you just do for the sake of doing it, something you love. Like if it's needle pointing, if it's sewing something, if it's baking, if it's gardening, something that you're not putting pressure on yourself to excel in in any way, something you're even comfortable being mediocre in in some way, but it's outside of your normal life that you spend time on and it feels meaningful for you, because that's where you'll have this moment of flow,

where you're just kind of not thinking about anything else, and you're just like sort of doing that thing and time passes, and it will give you like a pretty powerful boost. Some people have it like walking or doing athletics, but I think there are many places to find flow in our lives. Yeah, it's one of my problems with the glamorization of the side hustle is that I think we live in a society where we've essentially taken our hobbies and made people feel bad for not monetizing them in some way.

It's so true. And it's actually completely undermined, like the joy around them because there's nothing. It's like the purest form of love. It's something you do just because you love doing it. And then you're supposed to now, like, be selling those cookies you're baking or, you know, whatever those things are, that it's actually. like the moment I think we're monetizing or commercializing that thing, then you need to like, then we're stealing the joy out of it. I completely agree. I have to ask about the first thing

about kind of claiming back those interstitial moments to sit with ourselves. What if what if I feel like sitting with my own brain will stress me out more because I'm afraid of what's going on in there? Oh my gosh. Like that's happened to me. I once like I remember getting on like a long flight and realizing that I didn't have my book. And, like, the panic of having to sit with myself for, like, five hours was just... It's a scary place, my brain. Oh, my gosh. Like, that, like, the nightmare, like, oh, my gosh, I must have had it.

Like, looking around, like, to see, like, do you have, like, a magazine? You can't buy your New Yorker? You know, but the dread of sitting with ourselves. But I think, again, like, we... So I agree with you. And there's some people who do, like, even fine. Like, people will say, oh, you should meditate more. There are some people who actually get really anxious from meditating, you know,

and don't like it. And it makes their head spin and they really start ruminating like, am I breathing right? I've never paid attention to this. Am I doing this right? Am I thinking the right way? But I think sometimes when we can just claim back those moments to not go into our own heads, but actually like look outside of yourself. Like look out the window.

Look, you know, what's going on around you. You hear the noise of the like whatever sort of people in the cafe. Like what are they thinking about? Like imagine yourself, where's that person from who's sitting across from you, you know, who's working on something, I think when we can use it as an opportunity to actually get outside of ourselves rather than to get like into that that downward spiral of self-emversion and like self-oriented thoughts, think about other things unrelated to you. I mean, I always think like nature is always a huge like vitality booster like that. But I think when you can just

lift yourself out, think about things like beyond yourself, think about something that you, I always think about some moment that you were at your best, but think about what's going on around you, admire the space around you, what's something that you've maybe sat in that Starbucks 100 times but you never noticed before. Look for what's different. In the same way we're talking about that with relationships,

look for what's new in some way, and I think that's ultimately the essence of being mindful. It's not by being so self-immersed in our thoughts. It's actually like what's looking for what's new in the world around us. Do you want to end us on something that you wish people knew or understood about stress that you feel like we don't talk about enough? I think that how can you use stress, I think, in a positive way, like figuring out, like, what's the good stress that works for you, that fuels you, that motivates you, that engages you,

that galvanizes you to engage in things? Because I think we sometimes think, oh, I wish I had no stress. You know, I just want to live on a desert island and actually. that that's an incredibly unfulfilling experience. So like what is the good stress for you and how can it like move you not to be in your head, but to actually take actions in the world with others and that help us sort of feel connected? Because I think that will get us closer to the version of ourselves that we want to be. I love that. Okay, I'm going to talk all about your book and how great it is at the beginning of the episode. But if you want to talk to us about it in your own words,

I would love to hear that. Sure. Yeah. It really began with a question is what is mental health? I spent a lot of time in medical school and in psychiatry residency, focusing on what is illness and what is mental illness. And I got really good at that. And I really want to look at what is the essence of a good day?

You know, what is something we know we can get people to be a less miserable, you know, with medication or even cognitive, like, therapy, but what makes people feel strong? And looking at research, it was not just the opposite of feeling happy. It was actually like engaging in uplifts, doing things that make you feel good. And being in nature, spending time with a pet, working on a hobby, being with other people. And these aren't just the opposite of feeling bad. They're actually the things that sort of help them feel good and strong and create these buffer zones around them. Because research shows were actually pretty resilient, like those major life challenges.

But it's like the little things that really get us down. It was Muhammad Ali who said that it's, not the mountains ahead that wear us out. It's the pebbles in our shoe. And I think this book is really about kind of trying to get to those pebbles and throw as many out as we can, but also then manage the pebbles so they don't feel like they're pummeling us in the same way. Amazing. And that is everyday vitality. It's available wherever books are sold. And you are a positive prescription on social, right? Yes. And actually on Twitter, I'm at Sam B.MD. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today.

You shared so much wisdom, and I'm so grateful, and I know that my audience is as well. Thank you so much. I loved it. I hope you loved that episode with Dr. Samantha Bordman. I know it was a long one, but I really wanted to just cover every single possible thing that you could cover about stress. I wanted to, like, not leave any stress stone unturned. So I hope that you loved it. Remember, you can find her on Instagram at Positive Prescription, and her new book, Everyday Vitality is in anywhere that you can find books anywhere,

basically. And I'm at Liz Moody on Instagram. So if you want to tag both of us if you have any thoughts on the episode. As I mentioned at the get-go, we are starting weekly episodes now. So you can tune in next Wednesday. We'll have a brand spanking new episode for you. We will have brand spanking new episodes every single Wednesday going forward. And also, as I mentioned at the beginning, if you would be so kind as to share this episode, any episode of the pod with one other person, I would be so immensely appreciative. This is the year of expansion, the year of growth, the year of the podcast. So I really appreciate anybody out there who wants to help me on this journey or wants to

help me make that happen. I love you massively. In that same vein, I feel like I can't sign off from a pod without being like, leave a rating or review on whatever podcast app that you listen on. So if you want to do that, that's appreciated as well. sharing the podcast probably like top tier appreciated but then like that's like gold triple star blue ribbon and then I would say that rating or review is like one less star right below but you still get the ribbon too so all is appreciated and I'm going to stop rambling now and I will

see you next week next week I'm so excited on the next episode of Healthier Together I hope you have a beautiful day I'm genuinely confused how Masterclass gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes. I use it when I want to learn things directly, like the cooking class from Thomas Keller has all of the wisdom that you would normally have to go to culinary school for. But also, I'm being honest, this is like a use case I don't hear a lot of people talking about. I'll just watch it for entertainment when I want to do something that's far more interesting than scrolling.

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