The Liz Moody Podcast - Badass Jen Sincero Shares The Secret To Creating & Sticking To Habits (And Solves YOUR Habit Problems!)

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

Jen Sincero (@jensincero) is the number one NY Times best-seller of You Are A Bad Ass, You Are A Bad Ass At Making Money, and You Are A Bad Ass Every Day. Her new book, Bad Ass Habits, is all about applying Jen’s transformational strategies to creating and sticking to habits. This is the ultimate episode about creating and sticking to habits, which is critical for basically any healthy lifestyle transformation. We talk about: A simple exercise to figure out what’s blocking you from succeeding at your habits How to actually find freedom from your cell phone How to set boundaries to support keeping habits (and why you need to) What to do when people around you don’t support the new you If it’s okay to miss a day when forming a habit (and what to do when you do) Why it might be time to ditch the morning routine Plus, Jen solves all of YOUR habit problems including: how to stop eating sugar, how to start reading, how to floss regularly, how to meditate, and more. I can’t wait to hear what habit changes you’re making in your life! Screenshot and tag me—I’m @lizmoody— and Jen (@jensincero) and share your thoughts, feelings, and reactions. PS: My foodie preset pack is officially live. You can get all 8 presets, designed to make your food pics look as good as they taste, at lizmoody.com/presets. PPS: Healthier Together is officially a number one best-seller! You can get your copy on Amazon or at lizmoody.com/cookbook. Please keep sending me your creations on Instagram—they make me so happy! This episode is sponsored by Kyoto Botanicals, the first CBD brand I’ve recommended on this podcast! Right now, I’m loving their Warmth tincture, which has turmeric and cinnamon, and the Warmth balm, which is so helpful for headaches and sore muscles. You can get a whopping 25% off your order (AND they always have free shipping!) by using the code “HEALTHIERTOGETHER” at kyotobotanicals.com. This episode is sponsored by LifeSeasons, a company that makes amazing supplements for gut health, inflammation, immunity, and many, many more, including my beloved allergy blend. Go to https://shop.lifeseasons.com?current-token=P8gRvbln and use the code “healthiertogether” for 15% off your order. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the healthier together podcast and to 2021. Man, that feels good to say. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a longtime journalist and cookbook author, and I hope you had a lovely little holiday break. I know a lot of the media this time of year is all about losing weight and eating crazy clean, and while I thought about putting out an episode that would help with those types of goals, it is not really my jam. I'm not a fan at all of restriction.

Rather, I prefer crowding out, which basically means adding in as many veggies as possible and making them as delicious as possible so they actually fill you up. To that end, I created a really fun green smoothie challenge over on my TikTok and my Instagram. It's designed to help you get a ton of veggies in a form that tastes like milkshakes and is super easy to make all before noon. If you want to join, head over to my Instagram. It's at Liz Moody. I always say that swapping your breakfast for a green smoothie is the fastest,

easiest way to change your health and I truly believe it. I've been drinking them for, wow, it must be like seven years now and it has truly changed my life. And I cannot wait for you to experience it too. If you're looking to uplevel your life in any other way, well, that's where this episode comes in. I decided to make my New Year's episode all about habits because creating good habits allows you to achieve pretty much anything you want to. I am so excited about today's guest, Jen Cinscherro, the number one New York Times bestseller of you are a badass, you are a badass at making money, and you are a badass every day. Her new book, Badass Habits, is all about applying Jen's transformational strategies to creating and sticking two habits. In this episode, we cover habits from pretty much every angle. Jen shares the number one thing people get wrong about forming habits, the nitty-gritty of habits like how rigid you need to be or what to do on days you're not motivated, why setting

boundaries is so vital to forming good habits. This is something I never thought about before, and it rang so true and a ton more. I also thought that it'd be fun to have Jen solve your habit problem. So I asked you on Instagram to share the habits you wanted to implement and the reasons you were having a hard time getting them to stick. So in this episode, Jen is going to help you floss, tidy up, start a morning routine, cut out sugar, limit screen time, workout, and so much more. I hope you love this episode and it helps you get excited about making changes that will help you feel good, both in the new year and far beyond. Remember that there is never a bad day to start treating yourself in the way that you deserve to be treated, new year or not. I'd love to

hear about what habits you're implementing and maybe help you troubleshoot any issues you run into. So screenshot the episode as you're listening and tag me. I'm at Liz Moody and Jen. She's at Jen Sincereo on Instagram. I hope you love this episode. All right, Jen, thank you so much for taking the time to join me on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me. So this is the first episode of the new year. And I want to talk about habits and your whole new book about habits and help people form the habits that they need to have the best year ever. Sounds great.

So first of all, what is the number one thing that people get wrong about forming habits? I think it's that they focus only on the actions they're taking, which is important, but you've also got to get your mindset squared away and sort of identify as a person who's already adopted this habit before you start taking the actions. Yeah, I love that part of the book where you talk about habits are more about who you're being than what you're doing. But it sparked the question for me about like, what if you're unsure about who you want to be? Like, what if you're like, I want to love my body without needing to lose weight, but I also want to not eat this cookie, you know?

Well, if it depends what the habit is, you know, you start with what the behavior is that you want to switch, that you want to change. So if it's not about losing weight, but it's about not eating sugar for that example, maybe, maybe, so you identify as somebody who doesn't eat sugar, who doesn't notice sugar, who eats really healthy foods, who have a lot of. like checks the ingredients for things to make sure there's no sugar. Like it really, you start with the specific of the habit and then form the identity around that. Okay. That's so, okay, so it's like the more nuanced and specific versus just like that a broader thing. I want to be healthy. It's more like I want to not eat sugar and I'm a person who doesn't eat sugar. I think so because if healthy is, that's hard to wrap your mind around. Like what does that mean to you? So if you, if you, want to be healthier, get down into the specifics of exactly what that means to you. Because if we don't

get into specifics, we set ourselves up for such failure because we don't know what the hell we're doing, you know? And then it's sort of wishy-wash, you know, like, I can have a, you know, I can have a cocktail, but I can't have a cookie. Like, just know what you're doing. And then it's going to be a lot easier to do it. Well, with that in mind, like, how do you narrow in on the best habits for yourself. Like I feel like especially in today's world, we're constantly bombarded with all of the myriad ways that we could and should be improving ourselves. And we might also have our own personal goals. Like I want to have a habit of working out. I want to have a habit of meditating. And it can be hard to fit all that stuff in a day. So how would you decide what habits are most

important? I usually start with what I complain about the most. And you know, you know, and so it's like What is the most pressing? What do you find yourself, you know, resisting or complaining about the most? And, you know, of course, we all have endless amounts of work to do in our lives. And that's the fun. But you've got to prioritize it somehow. So whatever, either you complain about the most or whatever is affecting your life the most in the most detrimental way or would improve it in the best way. Like you just you just got to pick something at the end of the day. And sometimes there is no real right or wrong. But I think those. are kind of good places to start. For you, what were like the habits that you adopted that changed your life the most? The one that started me out on this whole journey of the badass books and becoming a coach and all that was the habit of being broke. That was huge for me, was identifying as a broke person who sucked at making money. Yeah.

I think that's like such a fascinating shift. And I'd love, I want to make this about habits more broadly. And I know you have your other books about making money. stuff like that. But can you just speak to that journey briefly because I think, especially in the New Year, people are getting excited about businesses and jobs and career and all of those prospects. Right. And I mean, everything I did to make money and to shift my mindset and to identify as a different person, it's completely universally. You can apply it to anything. So, you know, what I did in the old back in the day was really make the decision to make money. And one of the first things

I did was figure out what I was complaining about the most. And my main complaint was, I can't afford it. And I said, I can't afford it 100,000 times a day. And once I became aware of that, you know, it always starts with awareness. So you become aware of what you're buying into, what you're saying, what you're believing, and all that stuff. And so I started with the phrase, I can't afford it. And I wrote a new story around that based on that, that was money flows to me easily and freely. So every time I wanted to say I can't afford it. I said money flows to me easily and freely. And this is something that we work on immediately in the book when I get into sort of the course part is, is writing, rewriting your catching yourself in what your story is and then rewriting it to form a new mantra that has real meaning for you.

Yeah, I loved that part of the book. I think it's such an interesting way to get into your own judgments about stuff, the judgments that you think other people will have about stuff, that sort of free writing exercise. Can you talk about that exercise a little bit? I think thought that was so smart. Getting the exercise where you just start to list all your beliefs about whatever it is about that habit. Yeah, I think it was day one. Yeah. Yeah. So we start, it's, it's, it's the most labor intensive day out of the course that I lay out. But I think it's super important because awareness is the key to transformation. So you basically just write stream of consciousness, all your beliefs down about why you suck, why you can't quit smoking or why you can't meditate

every day or, you know, whatever you've got going on around this habit that has either stopped you in the past or that you might be scared of, you know, not succeeding about it in the present, it helps you to recognize a lot of the beliefs and thoughts that you've got about this habit that you may not realize you have. That's what's so great about journaling. If you really push yourself to stay in that space, it's just right stream of consciousness and go past the point where you feel like you need to stop, all of a sudden, looking back on, you know, looking back from the pages, all this stuff that is so then helpful to, you know, turn around. You can't, you can't change what you can't see. So did you have to overcome, like, did you do this exercise when you were changing your money

making habit? Oh, yeah. It was very sobering. What did you uncover? Well, you know, and I actually put this exercise in my money book and in you are a badass because it was so, it was such a a frying pan in the forehead moment, just like, oh my God, I had no idea. Because, you know, for the most part, all of us, especially when it comes to money, think that, of course, we want to make tons of money. Who doesn't? Like, bring it on. But then the more I wrote about it, I had lots of thoughts like that, but I also had, you know, I suck at making money. I really had this weird belief that I was almost like a different species from people who made lots of money. Like I would, like almost like they were grownups and I was a perpetual seven, you know, kid. And I didn't really believe it was

okay to make money. I thought people who focused on the unholy dollar were, you know, moral free. So I just, I had a lot of judgment around money, around people who made money and, especially about money's availability to me personally. That's interesting. And do you find that now with money, like, do those old thoughts creep back in and then you kind of like hit them down with the hammer of money flows freely and abundantly? Or do you just, has it been trained out of you at this point? At this point, it's pretty much gone. I'm very pleased to say. I still have weird, like I'm really cheap about paying for parking. Like I have really weird things that I still do. But as far as manifesting money and money flowing easily and freely to me, man, it totally flows easily

and freely. It's really amazing. and exciting. Have you ever run across somebody who's tried to adopt that mantra and run into roadblocks that were tricky even for you to figure out how to get them through? Don't know if I understand the question. Like it worked out so well for you and I'm sure that in your travels and in talking to the millions of people have read your books, you've heard so many stories about it working out well for other people as well. And I'm just curious if if you've heard stories on the flip side where there was another tweak you had to offer them or sort of a different approach. Sure. I mean, and this goes for any mantra and anything we're trying

to do. Sometimes, you know, sometimes you haven't written the right one. Sometimes you're pretending you're taking all the scary actions that you need to take, but you're really sneaking out of taking them and coming up with some kind of excuse. Sometimes your mantra, works at the beginning and then you need to course correct and make it more appropriate. You know, you've shifted somehow. So there are certainly times, I mean, not everybody writes a mantra and does the work and knocks it out of the park. We've all, we're all going to come up against new challenges. And, you know, they say new level, new devils. So, you know, we're always changing and things are always shifting and everything, you know, and you may not nail it the first time as far as the mantra

goes. But the most important thing is that you just get started. Because, you know, If you just try and think it through and, you know, anticipate all the obstacles, you'll be sitting there thinking for the rest of your life. You've got to get in the game and get the information and then change as needed. Okay. Going back to habits that are kind of hard to get to stick, I think getting off people's phone is a huge one that people are interested in. But the phone is literally designed to keep you on it. like it is technologically designed to be as addictive as possible. So I'm curious how you can override those external factors like that. The phone thing? Yeah, the phone thing. Help me with the phone thing. This is personal. Okay. Well, here's one thing that the phone thing does that could

totally help you is you can assign different sounds to different people, right? So if your excuse is like, well, I got a kid, I got to make sure, you know, I got to be attached to my phone occasionally anything happens to my kid. If you make all the sounds and alerts that would have to do with your child a certain sound, then anything that's not that sound, you don't have to be attached to your phone for. Hmm. You know, and then they have the do not disturb thing. I think also, if you're really attached to it, how are you attached to it? Are you going on social media like crazy? If so, get rid of those apps. You know, leave it in another room. Make conscious choices that, you know, I'm only going to be on my phone every half an hour or so. So you leave it somewhere else and then you pick it up. I think this constant availability is something that we've all sort of blindly allowed to ourselves to participate in. You don't have to be available all the time. Who the hell said that? What's the rule? Right? Yeah. I completely agree with that sentiment. But

when I tell it to, I work for myself, but when I tell it to my friends, they're like, my boss expects me to be available at nighttime. And if I don't answer those emails, they might not, you know, like fire me, but they'll start passing me over for projects or be frustrated with me, which comes out in other ways. So what do you deal, how do you deal with other people's expectations that you be available? Well, if that's what you signed up for and that's the agreement you made, then that's when those, you know, the alerts for just. that person will come in handy. Right? I mean, if it's just your boss and you make a sound that's just your boss that comes through. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Okay. So, and then with the social media, I think everybody like, they're not quite ready to get rid of it. You're like, delete the apps. And I feel like that's much easier said than done because you're like, this is how I, you know, we're in a pandemic right now. It's how I keep up with my friends' lives. It's how I find a source of entertainment in my day. Do you think it has to be that all or nothing approach?

Or do you think there's a way to mitigate our addiction to social media? Well, it depends if you can mitigate it. Like if you can seriously have the willpower to only allow yourself to look at it at certain times, then yeah, keep it. But if you're not doing that, you might need to be harsher with yourself, you know. What's your approach to social media in your life? You know, I actually don't have that much of an issue. I'm like in my 50s and I'm like, I don't care that much. I just probably care more. I like to look at it and I like to keep up with my friends and stuff like that. But honestly, being on my phone a lot makes me depressed. And I far prefer to be in the moment. So it's not that big of an issue with me. Can I ask you a weird question about phone stuff? Always. The thing I struggle with, I think, the most with phone stuff is what to do with those interstitial moments,

like the moments where you're waiting in line at the grocery store and you take out your phone to entertain you, or you're waiting for your pasta water to boil or something like that. Do you just kind of stand around and be with your thoughts in those moments? You know, that's the time that we used to meet strangers. That's the time where, you know, I've got to say, I think just my generation as kind of an interesting. interesting perspective on this because when I was a teenager and in my 20s, this didn't exist. And you'd like make eye contact with somebody or you'd notice something about your surroundings and you would just be present. Now it's like every second has to be filled with this social media stuff. And I personally, I don't like it. I personally don't like the way it makes me feel. I don't like being, I almost feel like the internet is a giant vacuum that

It's like sucking me into this other reality. And I like my reality on earth. I like noticing the sky and noticing other people and noticing where I'm at and how I'm feeling. And I get depressed if I am not connected to that present moment. And I think we've really lost that. And I'm very curious to see how mental health is a couple decades down the road or even now. I think it's really affecting people now. And I think it's such a normal way to be for, I don't know how old you are, but I think you even

asking that question, like, what do you do if you don't look at your phone? Like, you don't even know what to do. Yeah. And I grew up with that. Like, I got my first phone when I was 16 or 17. Right. So I did have a childhood without it. And it makes me think that if even I have this problem, like how much worse that must be for somebody who always had a computer, always had a phone. Absolutely. Yeah. It's really interesting. It is really interesting. And I think it's a hard habit to break because it's, again, like, it's designed to hook you. Oh, yeah. That makes it so much trickier. Mm-hmm. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. The mattress that you sleep on is one of the highest exposures that you have. Like, if it's off gassing, you're breathing that in for basically a third of your life. And most conventional mattresses are loaded with synthetic foams, flame retardants, microplastics, and more. Plus, if it's not comfy, you're going to be tossing. and turning, you're going to be really hot, and sleep is the foundation of health. It is so important.

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birchliving.com slash Liz Moody and you're going to get 20% off birch living.com slash Liz Moody. This has been quite a year to say the least. I know a lot of us are feeling stressed and anxious and I am right there with you. While I don't take a ton of supplements, one of my go-to and getting through this year has been CBD. I love Kyoto Botanicals for a few key reasons. They own and operate their hemp supply chain from seed to bottle and hand-produce every bottle they sell to deliver products with unmatched consistency and quality. They believe every ingredient matters and should contribute to your overall health,

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setting boundaries for habits. And I hadn't ever made the connection before between boundaries and habits. I thought habits were sort of this thing that I had to attack on my own, in my own lane, and everybody else sort of orbited it. But it wasn't involved in that. So can you speak a little bit to the role of boundaries and setting habits? Yeah, I was really excited. do include that chapter in the book because I don't think that is something that normally is addressed when people are talking about habits. And it's so important because whenever you're shifting a way of being, you have to protect your time and you have to protect your energy. And sometimes you need to change the people that you keep close to you and pull new people in and move some people out.

And these are things that if you don't pay attention to and get into the specifics about and consciously tend to, you can make it so much harder for yourself to succeed at what it is you're trying to do. Can you give like a few concrete examples of how other people in your world can impact your ability to set and stick to a habit? Oh, boy. This is, you know, it's so funny. I have never done a talk without the question coming up. What do you do when the people surrounding you don't support your growth or don't support the new person you're changing it to, right? And the reason this is a common question is that whenever you change who you're being, let's say that you're going to quit the job that you find so deathly boring and like start a business of your own that you're super

excited to start. You know, a lot of times it's the people who are the closest to you who feel you know, tell you that it's not going to work, that you should be really careful, or they'll make fun of you, or, you know, you're like, my God, I thought, you know, you're the people who allegedly loved me and want me to be happy. And here you are filling me with all your fear, doubt, and worry when I got plenty of my own. Meanwhile, perfect strangers are like, you go, blah, blah. And so the reason for this is because the people closest to you have the most to lose. they subconsciously very often don't realize it, but when you're shifting who you're being, whether you go from single to married or you're going to lose the weight or you're going to

change the job or whatever it is you're going to do, you're basically killing off your old identity. And, you know, it's basically like you're killing their pal and people don't like it when that happens. But, you know, and you're also killing off what they, quote unquote, know to be real. So when you shift a piece of their reality, it makes them feel really insecure and what to insecure people, you know, insecure people are basically mean, right? They lash out. The other thing you're doing is holding a mirror up to them saying, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to change. I'm not going to just settle for the reality that I'm staring at or, you know, just agree to the environment I'm in as the be all end all. I'm going to, I'm going to go for something radically different and exciting to me.

And if I can do it, you can too. And that often makes people super uncomfortable if they're not available to look at what's possible for them too. Well, and I think that it was really interesting in that part that you talk about how like the number one desire that humans have is to be right. And anything that kind of messes with that desire is viewed as a threat. And I thought that was such a interesting observation. And I'm curious what your advice is when, navigating that. Well, you've got to navigate it with yourself also and other people. And I loved, I just, I thought that was such a helpful thing to realize for me. You know, there's that phrase most people would rather be right than happy. And because again, we're, I mean, we're on a ball in

infinite space. So if we thought about anything long enough, we would be freaking out all the time, right? So our little human minds are like desperately trying to play. some security. We're just, we're just looking for safety and security and familiarity, right? So that's why this need to be right is so important to us on a very primal level. You know, if I know who you are and if I know how things are, I'm safe. And the unknown, oh my God, the unknown is terrifying. Even though it could be 100,000 times better than the familiar space I'm in right now, I'm not going to risk it because it's too scary. So that really, really is sort of the baseline of a lot of our, of the reasons that we get stuck in ruts and a lot of

the reasons that we won't do the things while we stay in relationships that are like miserable or even abusive or jobs that suck. It's because we'd rather cling to the familiar than risk the unfamiliar. It's like so resonant. So how do we, how do we overcome that? You become aware of what you're doing. So you, you become aware because what happens is we walk around in a bit of a stupor, just accepting quote unquote truths. We don't question them. So the key to any transformation is awareness. So you have to become aware of the fact that you're buying into something as a truth that is not true. So this is why also I start from complaints. Like what have you been complaining about? And if you're complaining about it, there's probably a part of you that thinks that's the way things are

and that it's true. I suck it. I've tried to quit smoking and I suck at it or I can't lose weight. everybody in my family has a slow metabolism or there's no way I can get a better job in the middle of a pandemic. Like whatever you've decided is true and that you need to be right about, start becoming aware of what your thoughts and beliefs and words are and then be like, huh, I'm going to step aside and look at those and question them. So that's the first thing you can do. And then make a different decision about what is true. Look for proof that other people are kicking butt in the way that you want to kick butt, you know, start surrounding yourself with people who are doing big things and who think much more expansively than maybe the people you're hanging out with now. Do things that scare the living

crap out of you all the time. And that will, you know, catapult you into a completely different reality. What if you're looking for those proofs and you're having a hard time finding them? Like, if you're, to use the examples you use, what if you're like, everybody in my family is overweight, maybe I do have some sort of genetic predisposition. Everybody in my family has mental illness. I won't be able to overcome my depression. Everybody knows lost their job. So how will I get a job during the pandemic? Well, listen, with medical issues, I am not a doctor. So maybe there is some truth. So, but investigate it instead of just blindly assume it. So get information, first of all. And as far as the everybody around me in the pandemic is having trouble with jobs, I know people who've like tripled their incomes during the pandemic because there are new opportunities that weren't here before the pandemic.

So yeah, I mean, maybe doing what you're doing right now isn't going to be great during the pandemic. But, you know, there are certainly new opportunities everywhere and just deciding that it's impossible out of the gate without really expanding your mind and taking some chance. just sets you up for failure. Do you ever feel like people's circumstances do indeed trap them, or do you think they're always trapped by sort of the cages that they make in their minds that they use their circumstances, that is an excuse for? That is a great question. And I, you know, I have more privilege than most people.

So it's easy for me to say, you know, it's all in your mind. I do believe that every human on earth is capable. of profoundly amazing things. But if you are chained up in a cell, I don't know how much can, I do think that there are people that are just physically, you know, held back in ways that I can't even imagine. Going back to the boundaries thing. So let's say you've like sort of, you have that awareness. You understand how other people are impacting you.

Do you have any tips on like a very pragmatic level for having, that conversation with people in your life, like, I am going to change who I am now and you might not like it and this is why that needs to be okay or this is why I need your support in this. Yeah, I think it first starts with yourself. You need to decriminalize the setting of boundaries. And I'm going to assume that we're talking about boundary where you don't agree to, you say too much yes to things when you really should say some nos, just sort of to sort to stop being a bit of a doormat. Let's just use that as an example. So first, you have to understand that setting this boundary is actually very beneficial to everybody,

including yourself. So being unclear and being a dormant and being available to everybody and then becoming exhausted and resentful and passive aggressive is not fun for anybody involved. And also, you know, people are walking on eggshells because you're pissed off, even though you said you were going to, you know, happily pick their kids up after school. like nobody benefits in that situation. And we've all experienced the person who's very clear with their boundaries and is totally unapologetic. And you may be like, whoa, but at the same time, you respect that person, right? It's the wishy-washy person who's not standing up for themselves. It's just not doing anybody any favor. So, but I think it's first so, so important for you to be

unapologetic about it. And that's going to take a moment to be like, okay, I am doing this because I respect myself and I need this time. I am still a good friend. I am still a good mother. I'm still going to do the things within my okay zone, but I'm not going to spread myself in and put other people's needs before mine anymore because that doesn't benefit anybody. So decriminalize it. And then when you explain what you need, don't make it some big long out story with lots of apologizing and explanations. You don't owe anybody anything. And also remember, you are responsible to other people, you are not responsible for them. So you show up, you are a good friend, you do what you say you're going to do, you're helpful, blah, blah, blah. But whether or not they freak out

about it is none of your business. You have the book, you have the yes boundary, the no boundary, and then the boundary that spoke to my soul, which is the control boundary. I am a person who I have dealt with anxiety my entire life. And I think that I've, And a lot of people with anxiety view control is the antidote to anxiety. So I try to control everybody in my orbit way more than I should. And I would love for you to speak to that boundary setting just because I think it would resonate with a lot of people listening. Well, first of all, A plus for realizing that that's what's going on, you know,

like awareness is the key. So you know that's going on. Then I would take a moment to get clear on why you're doing it. and, you know, take it case by case, like, why am I telling my sister that she should quit her job or not date that guy or, you know, whatever it is, pick the situation and the specifics of it and then get clear on why you're doing it. Because I'm so sure I know better for my sister than she knows for herself. Like I can get so clear, be like, Katie, if I could just run your life for a second, I'd do so good with it. Right. And although that might be true, you know, Katie needs to learn it for herself.

She needs to go through what she's going to go through. If she asks you for help, that's a different story. But the controlling thing is usually unsolicited advice, unsolicited help, feeling responsible for other people. put, you know, really just like making their business, your business. And a lot of times, as you said, like, you're doing it to quell your own anxiety. So that's not really a good reason. You know, how else can you quell your anxiety that isn't going to be, you know, that isn't going to be a murky boundary setting? Well, and I think it's just so interesting how often we couch control in caring. We're like, oh, I want to do this for a person because I love them.

so much. And it's like, no, I'm just trying to literally control them. Yeah. And that's, you know, we do the same thing with worry also. I'm just worried about you because I love you. It's like, support me. You know, give me resources. Hold me up. Be proud of me for taking a big leap. I think a lot of our bad behavior gets a pat on the back. And it's, it's, it's so interesting. And like, it's societally, like, rewarded. It's like, oh, look at you. You're being such a good friend. and it's like you should be, yeah, that's a really interesting thing to reflect on. Okay, you talk about in the book the idea of rewarding yourself for good habits, which I like is a concept. But oftentimes the rewards that I go for for habits are like other habits I'm trying to break.

Like, oh, you can be on social media right now or oh, you can have some sweets right now. So I was curious what you use as your go-to rewards or rewards in general, like ideas for rewards that are good for you. Well, listen, if it's not something that's, it doesn't have to be necessarily good. I don't, it should be not bad. Like, I think getting to watch an awesome television show, it's not great for you, but it's not bad. And I really like that. So that is definitely one of my rewards. Getting to walk around outside is a big reward for me.

I know for some people that may seem insane, but it's true, getting to take a nap. Again, I'm in my 50s. You know, and I also think anything that where you go cold turkey, like denying yourself something also can really lead to more neuroses and more obsession around something. So I think, okay, so if social media is something that you really crave and that you really love, and even if you're cutting down on it, you can still let yourself go to it for a couple of minutes if that's a really valuable reward to you, as long as you can keep it in the cage, you know. Yeah. I mean, well, and it actually helps you probably keep it in the cage to be like after I do my workout.

Like I've been doing a morning routine where I can't look at my phone or check my social media until I've meditated, worked out and like had my smoothie where I read nonfiction. And like putting those three things before it makes me do those three things rather than lay in bed and like look at my phone. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. On the days I can do it. It's been really, really good. Which actually brings up, is this a question from my mom?

mother-in-law is her number one question about habits, which is like how rigid do you need to be? Like if you, a lot of people will have a habit for a week or two and then they'll fall off and then they'll be like, well, I fell off. Like, what's the point? Do you think that the every day of it, even if it's just a teeny bit every day, is really important or no? I do. And that being said, you will screw it up and you will not do it every day. We will all be there at some point. But I talk about habits almost, and I hate to use you, I've got to come up with a better word for this. It's like, it's a rut or a, you know, something that's being dug from repetition because habits are all about repetition, right? So the longer you repeat something, the deeper that this ditch gets or whatever

you want to call it. The new habit is just as much shallower, right? Because you haven't been, it hasn't been on repeat as long as the old habit. And so it really is about repetition and just showing up and keep to get that groove, that's a groove, that groove, to get that groove deeper and deeper and deeper, right? So, yes, showing up as often as possible, we are human. We will not do it every single day, but the most important thing is getting, making as little time pass between the doing it and the not doing it. So, you know, if you don't meditate one day, you have got to meditate the next day. And I'm also a big fan of if your goal is to meditate 45 minutes every morning and you just cannot bear it, do it for five. Just keep showing up. Get into the habit of the habit.

Are you a person, is your course or like the practice that you have for 21 days because you think if you do something for 21 days, that's enough for it to really become a carved groove that you don't have to think about anymore? You know, I've heard it takes 21 days. I've heard, I've heard it takes 16 days. I've heard it takes a certain number of repetitions. I think it totally depends on who you are and what the habit is. So no, I didn't do that because that's, you know, the scientific, you know, whatever of how many days it takes to anchor in a habit. I just, I like three weeks. I feel like it's not overwhelming and, and it's a good chunk of time. And also, it was sort of the amount. It was just sort of a good container for it. And I felt like I had 21 suggestions for people.

You know, every day you do something different. And it's a short little description. And it could be meaty and helpful and something that would make a good sort of daily task. But that's really where it came from. I definitely think it is individual. But I just think everybody's dying to know, like, when will this be automatic? I know. When will it not be a lift anymore? Sorry, people. I don't know. I mean, honestly, I use this example in the book. I, you know, some habits do take 21 days. Some take months. Some take years.

And I started flossing my teeth in about four hours on a regular basis after 54 years of struggling with it because my dentist scared the hell out of me. And for some reason, the way she said it got me to, I do it every morning now. Yeah. I think that's so interesting is like, have you experienced or done any research into like that tipping point? how you can hear about something being good for you like 50 times and then suddenly you try it in a new way and it sticks. Well, you know, it's that whole thing of the aha moment too, right? I mean,

that's why is that? Why do you hear something over and over and over and over? And then all of a sudden the light bulb goes off. I feel, I honestly feel like it's almost like our resistance has to be just over time. I think time, you know, time is the great healer and time. I also believe is the great washer away of resistance. You know, when I was telling my dad, I don't know what we were talking about, but I think I was talking about how it's so much easier to set boundaries and to do all the things that are good for you, the older you get. And he's like, yeah, I don't know if you get older and wiser or older and more tired.

And I'm like, it's true. But, but, and I mean, don't you, I mean, we all agree that like time is a great healer, like something that upset you so much. You could hardly lift your head off the pillow. You can barely even remember right now, right? And that's just time. So I think time we break down, we get tired of sucking or we get tired of being sad or it just starts to wear away, honestly. Well, and I think there's like, there's that idea in marketing and advertising that you need to expose somebody to a product, what, like three or five

times before they want to make the purchase. And I wonder if it's the same with good habits where like even if you can't get your workout to stick the first few times you tried, then the fifth time you've had that exposure, so it's easier to tip. Yeah, I bet there's definitely something to that. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm genuinely confused how Masterclass gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes. I use it when I want to learn things directly, like the cooking class from Thomas Keller,

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I cannot wait to hear what you think. Now, let's get back to the episode. Okay, so I wanted to do something fun. I had my listeners send in the habits that they wanted to integrate and then why they were having a hard time doing so. So I'm going to give you like very specific situations. Okay. We're going to have you solve people's problems.

Oh, great. Okay. The first one should be very resonant for you with your flossing story. So this one is, I have the hardest time with nighttime habits. habits like washing my face, flossing, tidying up. I want to be the type of person who has a good night time routine, but I'm always so tired by the end of the day. Can you do it earlier? Like, why do you have to wash your face when you go up for bed? What if you finish eating dinner and then go wash your face and then watch TV or hang out with your family or do whatever?

Can you put it at a different time? Oh, that's a good one. I actually, I had a girlfriend who once record, she said that she washed her face when she like got home from work the work day. And I was like, that's genius. Yeah, if you're tired, you're screwed. Like I, if I'm tired, game over. So just do it when you're not tired. Okay. So what about on the reverse side? A lot of people said they were dying to have a morning routine. And you actually talk about in the book how morning is a great, great time to get habits to stick, which I would love you to speak to. But they're always really tired in the morning. And so they, in the moment, opt for extra sleep versus like getting up and doing a routine. Well, again, I think, you know, my sister, I'm, I literally could wake me up at any time and

I'm bright-eyed and acting like I had been awake waiting for you to wake me up. My sister. Well, that's annoying. I know. And especially if you're my sister who like literally, it's like she was just clubbed to death and can't like. So, and I think there is like, we have bodies that are programmed certain ways, right? And so I think if you're not a morning person, which I really think is a very real thing,

don't make it harder. I mean, listen, habits are challenging enough. Don't set yourself up for failure by doing it at your personal worst time. I think the morning is great because it is less chaotic and not so much is going on in the distraction department. But being exhausted and trying to do stuff, I don't think is good either. I think find the right time for yourself and do it then. That's interesting.

Back when I worked in an office, I stopped. trying to do my meditation in the morning. And instead I did it as like a 3 p.m. pick me up at work. I would just go hide in a conference room and meditate at work. And it made it so much easier for me than trying to like cram it in before I committed. There's no right way. Yeah, I think we really get into trouble when we act like we're wrong because we're not doing it the quote unquote right way. And you really get to figure it out for your own self. So it's like figuring out the habit you want, but then actually looking at your realistic day-to-day schedule and figuring out the actual best, easiest time to integrate it. Yeah. Yeah. And making it easy. I mean, I have actually a whole

section in the book on making it easier or harder, like easier to adopt and making the habits you want to quit harder to do. And it's, and again, it comes down to specifics. Like get clear on the specifics of your life and how you are and then, you know, schedule it then. Can you give a few examples of like making something easier versus making something harder because I thought that was a great section as well. So let's say you want to work out every morning and put your clothes out the night before, get a snack ready the night before because, you know, I would imagine I don't work out in the mornings, but you know, getting your ass out of a cozy bed and going to a gym, it's got to be hard. So set yourself up for success. Make everything

that you need to get there ready when you wake up. Make sure the gym is as a close to your house as possible. Get a workout, buddy, you know, get a list of specifics of things that are going to make it easier. I think a lot of times we just try to wing it when we start a new habit and literally taking, I don't know, five minutes to sit down and put down some specifics can help you a lot. And the same thing with, let's say you want to quit drinking, make drinking as difficult as possible. You know, get rid of all the booze in your house. Stop hanging out with partiers. You know, don't go to bars, come up with some kind of really fun cocktail that doesn't have booze in it, get some specifics down that are going to make it a lot harder for you to participate in that.

I love the point you made in the book about, this podcast is called Healthy Together and the power of community is the foundational element of my brand. And I love the point you made about like, stop hanging out with people who are going to bars, like evaluate the people you're surrounding yourself with and the choices you're making and whether they're making the choices you want to make easier or harder. I think that's such a powerful way to change your life. It's one of the top three most important things you can do is to hang out with the kinds of people that are going to support who you're becoming. And it is easy. And because of what we were talking about earlier, it's the one that people drop the ball on the fastest because, my God, the people who are

close to you, who you love. I mean, what's more important than that? And, you know, a lot of times when you change, those are the very people that do not support you. So it can be a real, you know, how badly do you want this new life? Are you going to stay small and unhealthy and do things that don't seem right to you anymore just to keep people around who don't support you? And I'm, I say that and, you know, it doesn't mean you have to like break ties with your whole family and, you know, not talk to your college friends. But maybe you just don't share your dreams with those people. Maybe, you know, you certainly do lose some people along the way, but you, you, you, You don't stay small to make other people feel okay.

Do you have any advice, like advice super pragmatically for finding those new people, though I think making friends as an adult is hard enough. And then if you add on, like friends who are expansive and will support my values and dreams, it like makes me even harder. Yeah, you know, in the early days, I didn't. Like when I was getting over my money stuff, like I was going, I went to like money-making seminars. And, you know, all my friends thought I was crazy, seriously. and I couldn't talk to any of them about what I was doing.

And I would go to these seminars and it was pretty raw, raw, and it wasn't really people. I don't think I made a lot. I made a couple lasting friendships there. But more importantly, I was at least around other people who supported me and gave me ideas and didn't make me feel crazy, you know. And then I started buying into higher end coaching programs and met more people.

But, you know, we have the Internet. and I know we're trying to stay off the phone, but, you know, there's meetup groups that if you, do you know about meetup.com at this point? Yeah. It's probably totally archaic. No. Yeah, you know, we've got the internet. You can join communities all over the place.

So there's no lack of communities that you can join. And it may not be, you know, the best friends you'll ever meet, but at least you'll start getting around other people who are doing the same thing you are. Yeah, I actually think social media at its best is that as well. Right. you can really cultivate. Even if they're not people you know personally, you can literally fill your feed with people who believe the same things as you, the values, and you start kind of internalizing those messages.

Exactly. And who knows, you might make a real connection with somebody too. Yeah, I think that's so cool. Okay. Next listener one, I want to be a meditator so bad. I know it's good for me. But every time I think about doing it, it sounds so boring that I do something else instead. And then I got this like a variation of this a lot.

And some people said they did feel. an immediate difference after meditation, but still it was like boring and they didn't want to do it. And then some people said they didn't feel immediately different and they were looking for that long-term benefit, which I know makes it harder. Well, you know, newsflash, most habits don't show any results for quite a long time, I am sorry to say. So it is about repetition. And that's also why we talk about tracking your habits in the book about, okay, so this

annoying habit is not going to show, not going to give up any goods for two months. But at least if you mark off on a calendar, each day you show up, that in itself is a reward to look at. So I actually think that's a really great trick for if you're doing a habit that isn't going to give you immediate gratification. And listen, meditating is boring. It is. It's just, you know, whatever, every once in a while when like you get in the flow and you get that hit, like it's exciting. but it's for the most part super boring. So I just think stop trying to make it not boring and focus more on the benefits, which there are many and really get clear on why the hell you want to do it in the first place

and focus on that. And I also really recommend starting out small, you know, meditate for five minutes a day at first. Sometimes I'll literally like pull up articles that are like 10 ways meditation benefits to remind myself that I'm doing something that's actually good for me. Specifics, right? Yeah, that's a great idea. Okay, I really want to start a habit of going to bed earlier, but the evening is the only me time that I get to relax during the day. So I end up staying up way later, just mindlessly entertaining myself. If you shift your mindset and realize that me time is also sleep, then that's, I mean, I think spending.

some me time fast asleep is one of the best ways to spend it. You know, if you need sleep, do that or set a boundary and carve out, you know, if you're feeling like there are things that you want to do that you're not doing, you can make some time. You know, we piss away a lot of time. They say that, you know, if you have a job where you're there for eight hours, you actually end up only doing work for three. So, you know, there's time. We, we can't. can't wait for time to present itself. You have to make it. So if you really desire this me time to read or to meditate or to do whatever, carve out 30 minutes, set up a really strict boundary and make that happen for yourself. Yeah, you have that example of the book of like the mom taking

the bath and like it's actually a gift to her kids to know that mom needs this time for herself and it's a gift to the mom as well. So it's like telling, it almost is like a vote for yourself to carve out the me time earlier and tell the people around you that you need that time. Yeah. I mean, it teaches your kids about respecting other people's time. It also makes you a better, happier person with your kids. It's going to help them. But they need to learn.

You know, you don't want a bunch of spoiled brats running around the world. You know, they have to respect it. Other people need time to themselves. So it's a very good lesson. Okay. So I don't know if you'll relate to this one, given how you described yourself in the book. But this one, I've. very much relate to, which is, I want to be a cleaner person, but I'm just not. I hate cleaning.

I self-identify as lazy. How can I change my identity and become a clean person if that feels like such a foreign identity to me? Do you believe there are some identities that we simply can't shake? Oh, interesting. Well, I do know from research that we arrive on Earth pre-programmed to be certain ways. Like, why does some people want to study Chinese and others want to study gymnastics? Like, what is it that pulls us towards or, you know, points us away from certain things? So I do think that we are definitely pre-programmed in certain ways and excel in certain areas and not excel in others. So if that really isn't your jam, I think that, you know, that would be a great, find something that you're really good at, that you can actually make some money at and hire somebody to clean your house for you

or figure out what you can, you know, if that's out of the question right now, you know, what can you stand to do? Like maybe you hate mopping and dusting, but you don't mind sort of organizing your stuff. You know, you don't have to become a totally different person if that's really not who you are and quite frankly not something that brings you any joy to do. But there are workarounds and maybe there are parts of it that you can excel at and then hopefully delegate out the others. I love, it's going back to the thing we talked about at the beginning, which is like that

specificity. It's not like, I need to be a clean person. It's like what are ways I can clean and have that be true to my identity? Yeah. Yeah. Again, it's the overwhelm. I think, again, like overwhelm is what kills us all right out of the gate. So if you're like, I suddenly have to become a clean person and like love mopping my own floors,

you're never going to, you'll never. organize a shelf again. You know, you won't even do one little thing, but if you just take it in little tiny bites, you're going to really set yourself up for success. This is going to hurt the conversations that I have with my husband where I'm just like, I'm just not a clean. It's just not who I am. It's who you are. So you should clean more. I'll have to be like, no, Jen says that I can do small bits cleaning. But just a little. But just a little. I just have to figure out what those are. I put the spoons away. What entertainment I'm distracting myself with.

Right, right. I have a chronic illness. So even though I want to do habits, I'll find myself unable to for days or weeks on end, which makes it far harder to get back into the swing of things. Any advice? Oh, man. I think you, well, you show up however you can. So if you physically can't swing it that day, you show up emotionally and you think about it

and you work on the mindset pieces and identify as that kind of person and really do whatever mental work you can do if you are physically incapacitated. It really is just about constantly showing up. And there's lots of work to do on all sorts of different planes. So just keep showing up for that habit every day. It raises an interesting question for me, which is like even if your physical world doesn't shift, you've sort of won if you've changed how. how you think about your physical world, which is sort of interesting.

I think that's like sort of almost the thread behind a lot of what your advice is, is like even if what you're actually doing doesn't change, and often it will, but even if it doesn't, if the way you're thinking about what you're doing changes, that's a huge win unto itself. Absolutely. And if you change your actions, but you don't change your thinking, you will slide backwards, definitely. I mean, that's why they say that people who win the lottery, when broke people won the lottery, they almost always lose all the money eventually because they

haven't shifted who they're being or the way they think about money, you know? Right. Well, and then that lets, like, any circumstances can't affect really how you think about how you're approaching things. You know, the circumstances can affect everything around it, but you can be like, Like I had that realization with my job the other day. I was like, oh, I need to go make this recipe and it felt like a lot of work. And then I was like, if I have to make a recipe every day, I can either approach it with like, what a fun thing that I get to do or I can approach it as like drudgery. And I still have to do the same thing either way. So why not approach it as fun?

Absolutely. Which, yeah. Yeah. And that's what you're in control of. That's what you're in control of. That's really interesting. Okay. I have a few more reader questions.

and they're not like reader problems to solve, but they're just things people wanted to know about you. So I want to make sure I have time to sneak those in. Do you ever have days where you don't feel like a badass and what do you do on those days? Often. Well, not often, but yes. I just let it be, you know. We're all human and what goes up must come down. And we, you know, we're all working on stuff all the time.

And so absolutely, I just let it be. and I have my temper tantrum and my pity party if that's what's required. And, you know, but the thing that I think is so important is that you don't identify with those sad, frustrated feelings. Like you feel them and they're real, but don't create a big drama and a whole story about this is the way things are. This is who I am. It's never going to change.

Blah, blah, blah. It's like feel it, let it out, and then get back on it. Do you have any specific practices you do to like get back? on it and after you've felt it and loved it out? Yeah, totally. I mean, music for me is huge. You know, you can, you know, there are times when I'm listening to like Jillian Welch or Neil Young and I'm like, why am I so depressed? I'm like, oh my God, this music. Like, I love them, but hello, enough minor chords, please. So then you turn on something really upbeat and it can completely flip your mood, right? And this is all what I talk about, the spiritual gym.

Like, you've got to have your specifics in place if you want to keep the badassery going. So for me, I know which music really gets me going. I love being outside and hiking. So I will just get my ass out the door and go for a big hike. Always changes my mood. You know, being around certain people who are just, who just light me up and inspire me and who are fun can change my mood. Petting my dog.

You know, there's certain things. reading self-help books that just totally blow my mind or, you know, whatever. Yeah, plenty of things. What's your most badass habit? Oh, there's so many. Let me think. Okay. I think my badass, most badass habit is I'm really polite. I'm really good with the please and thank you. Like, I had really strict parents in that department, and I just really like that about myself. I'm sure other people like that about you. Thank you. See? How do you continue to feel like a badass when the universe keeps throwing shit your way, like getting dumped or ghosted by guys over and over or getting fired or stuff like that? You know, it's just what we just talked about.

You have your pity party. You feel sad and frustrated. And then you surround yourself with those specific things that lift you back up and you get back in the game. And you also never forget, that you have one shot to be the you that is you on planet Earth. And time is a finite commodity. So the longer you spend in the woe is me whole, you know, the less time you have to be awesome. Do you miss playing in a rock band or is being an author more fun? Oh my gosh. You know, it's so funny. I don't. And this is something I think is so interesting, too. We so identify a certain way. And for the longest time, I identified as a musician.

And I don't miss it at all. I just bought a new guitar. I was like, I don't even have a guitar anymore. So I bought a new guitar. And it literally has a giant just like a dust bunny on it. I guess I just don't. That was then. I did it to death.

I had a total blast. And I'm interested in different things now. Which also going back to the cleaning point, and this again is against my arguments with my husband. But it like our identities, I think, do. We're born a certain way. We're raised a certain way, obviously. But I do think sometimes they shift over time. Like at one point you identify as a rock star and another point you identify as this badass author.

And I think having that curiosity to be looking for those shifts is important. You know, like, am I still a messy, lazy person? I don't know. Maybe I should check in. You know what? That is an excellent, excellent point. And I think, you know, and that's what they say the whole midlife crisis. That's what that's about.

It's like all of a sudden you realize that doing a split in the air and tight pants with the guitar is not what you want to be doing. And then you're like, well, what the hell do I want to be doing? Who am I now? And we, you know, I've gone through that several times in my life just like really realizing, my gosh, I'm sort of plugging away at this old thing. And I actually don't even like it that much anymore or care about it. And then you've got to figure out the new thing. I think that's a great sentiment for this episode and for the New Year. The New Year is such a great time to sort of evaluate.

Like, wait, are the things that I'm pursuing, even the things that I want to be pursuing? Like, what do I want? Who do I want to be? Yep. And I think that's so important with your own self and also with the outside influence of what you should be doing, you know? Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I learned so much from you and I love all of your books and I'm really excited about your new books.

Thank you so much. You are a great interviewer. That was really, really fun. Thanks, Jen. Yeah, thank you. I hope you love this episode with Jen. I hope that you got excited about implementing some new habits in your life. I would love to hear about what habits you're interested in implementing what you're going to try.

So definitely tag me on Instagram. I'm at Liz Moody and tag Jen. She's at Jen Censcherro. We would both love to hear about what you're doing and maybe help you if you run into any issues. And if there's anybody you know in your life who you think would benefit from the wisdom that Jen shares in this episode, we would both so appreciate if you would share the episode with them and help them implement great habits in their life and then we can all get healthier together. All right, I hope you love this episode and I will see you on the next episode of Healthy Together. If you have headaches,

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