The Liz Moody Podcast - BEST OF: Hate Small Talk? 11 Ways to Make Any Conversation Actually Feel Good

Starting point is 00:00:00 Today, we are talking about small talk, which a lot of us hate, but is generally an unavoidable part of life, whether you are going to parties or hanging out in the kitchen at work or at the grocery store. I'm going to share some of the best small talk tips that I have learned from years of being an introvert in some very extroverted careers, including what I do now, which is talking for a living here on the podcast and on social media and also on stage and during networking events. We are going to get very actionable. As always, we will overcome some of the hurdles that you might be running into.

Starting point is 00:00:33 We will get into what the science says. And by the end, you will be equipped to light up any room with your sparkling conversation. Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we are sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and longtime journalist. A lot of us hate small talk. I'm being very, very honest, I used to, too. Until recently, when I learned some research that led to a reframe that switched my whole perspective on it. First, I'll share a little background on me. I self-identify as an extroverted introvert. Basically, I love being around people, but I find it

Starting point is 00:01:17 very draining. And the more people that I'm around, the more I need to recharge by myself later. And in studies, too, the majority of people self-identify as hating small talk, but introverts, especially hate it. I used to feel like it was all performative. Like it basically had all of the energy draining effects of deep conversation, but without any of that sense of really connecting or filling my cup that a really meaningful conversation will give you. But then I came across this really cool study. It was run by a psychologist at the University of Chicago. Basically, these researchers asked commuters on trains and buses to do one of three things on their commute. They were assigned to either connect with a stranger near them, to remain disconnected, or to just commute as normal.

Starting point is 00:02:04 They first surveyed people and they were like, what do you think that you're going to like the most? And people were like, definitely the one where I am not talking to another person. They ran the experiment and overwhelmingly participants reported a more positive and interestingly, no less productive experience when they connected than when they did not. And then they ran another experiment and the people who were talked to had equally positive experiences. Basically, we think that we will hate small talk, but we are social creatures and the research shows that we actually really enjoy it. I had Dr. Sue Varma on the podcast and we did an entire episode about optimism, which I can link in the show notes, and she introduced me to the concept of microconnections. Studies show that these teeny tiny social interactions think like talking to the barista at your coffee shop or to the person that you're waiting and lying next to at the grocery store. These teeny tiny little moments significantly boost our mood and lower our stress levels.

Starting point is 00:03:06 Since that episode and then since diving into the other research, I have both been trying to include more of these micro-connective moments in my life and I've been trying to analyze how I feel afterward. and I have realized that I don't really hate small talk. It did feel really good to have this real human moment with another human being. I actually realized recently that this is why I love farmers markets. I live in the Bay Area and I'm lucky enough to have spectacular grocery stores near me where I can get basically anything that I can get at a farmer's market. And I also pay the most amazing human being on the planet to meal prep for me every single week. Shout out Rachel.

Starting point is 00:03:45 So I have very little need to ever go to a farmer's market. But it is still the highlight of my Saturday every single week. So why is that? I think that it is because of the micro connections. Because at the farmer's market, you are chatting with the vendors in a way that there's rarely time or space for at the grocery store. It is so social and it's so personal. Today I got into a long conversation with a guy at the Apple stand about the cult that he grew up in. In today's world, so much of our interactions are online and being behind a screen dehumanizes

Starting point is 00:04:21 us on both sides. We leave worse comments and DMs because we don't think of the people that we are talking to is human. Trust me, I am on the receiving end of a lot of these and people will call me dumb or they will criticize my looks or literally just tell me that I do not deserve to live because I voice an opinion that differs from theirs and then I will respond and they will immediately be like, oh my God, I didn't think that you would ever really see that. Or one woman said, I let my fingers type faster than my brain thought. And she actually apologized, which I thought was

Starting point is 00:04:55 really nice and really rare. But we say these things that we would never say to people's faces. And similarly, when we're on the other side, if people are messaging us or we're just seeing comments on other posts or we're watching a video of somebody, our brain does not fully register that that is a human being like us. That is somebody who has experienced heartbreak. That's someone who gets little wrinkles around their eyes when they smile, who stays up too late worrying about their aging parent. That's someone who worries that they'll never find love. That's someone who gets headaches and plucks chin hairs and has a keychain from college because it reminds them of a self that they will never get to be again, that they'll miss just a little bit forever and ever. All of this is lost to the

Starting point is 00:05:43 flattening effect of the internet, but it's somehow still so present in these little human interactions of everyday life. And when I reflected on this, when I realized that small talk had this incredibly important purpose to help us tap into our humanness, to connect us with the world around us, it made me go from hating it to actually loving it. What a beautiful thing to get to pepper our lives with these bursts of connection. Okay, so then, why do we think that we hate small talk? Researchers at the University of Chicago, these same ones that I was talking about earlier, they ran another study where they found that people predicted starting the conversation

Starting point is 00:06:27 would be really difficult and predicted that half of the people they spoke to would not want to talk back at all. And again, this was not the case. The other study found that literally nobody was rejected, when the people in the experiment talk to them. So we have this huge fear that we won't know how to start the conversation. And then if we do start the conversation, we'll be rejected. And we talked about this in our episode with Dr. Michael Jervais, but fear of rejection is

Starting point is 00:06:55 incredibly wired into our brains. Because historically, if we were rejected by our group, we would likely literally die. Not in a metaphoric way, not of loneliness, but because you can't catch a giant woolly mammoth on your own. So we literally would not be able to eat. We can't build shelter on our own. We needed the pack to live. So rejection from the pack was not a wound to the ego.

Starting point is 00:07:21 It was a potential death sentence. And our genes, our physiology, our brains remember that. So let's tackle that hurdle first, the initiation. First of all, I want you to internalize the results of that study. By and large, people like to connect. They like to chat and they're going to come away feeling better than before they chatted with you. They are not rooting to hate the conversation with you. They are rooting to like it. Also, a little secret for you. If they don't like the conversation, they will probably just blame themselves.

Starting point is 00:07:55 99% of the time we are walking around worrying about what other people think of us when the truth is those people are just thinking about themselves and worrying about how they came off to us and to other people. Of course, like, read the room. If somebody is wearing headphones on a plane, please, please do not be the person who keeps trying to make conversation, even though they put back on their headphones every single time they answer your question. Like, we can use our very basic social cues. But in general, people will enjoy talking to us. So I really just want you to take a second and take that in. Especially in a social setting, like a party, the goal is to talk. Everyone is there to do it. and you're doing them a big favor by being the initiator or an active participant. And if someone doesn't want to talk to you, great. That's good to know since that's not somebody that you should be wasting your time on. Okay, but what do you say to kick off the conversation? I had Vanessa Van Edwards on the show. She studies the science of charisma, and her research institute

Starting point is 00:09:00 ran a study that tested which opening questions were the most likable and which were the least. The ones that rated the lowest were questions about the weather and what do you do? Little side note about asking about people's jobs. This is a go-to for a lot of us. And it is deeply hated by a lot of people because, one, many people do not love their jobs. And two, and I think this is more important, it's interpreted as a way of sizing people up, which sucks because it makes people feel really judged. I actually think this is a big reason why some of us do it, that we are not conscious. aware of. We're trying to figure out what the social hierarchy is so we can figure out who's

Starting point is 00:09:41 important, who to listen to, who to defer to in this really primal way. It's all happening on a subconscious level, but I think we're also aware of it on a subconscious level, which is why so many people dislike the question. Okay, so those tested poorly, what tested well? The questions that consistently tested the best in Vanessa's research were, working on anything exciting recently, have any fun or exciting plans coming up for the weekend, and what's been a recent big highlight for you? You might notice what they all have in common. They're not overly personal, but they give people a chance to reflect on something positive. Because of the way that our brains work, they'll then associate the positive feeling triggered by that positive thought

Starting point is 00:10:26 with you. I love Vanessa's questions, and I also have a few personal go-toes of my own. First, I just love a compliment. It's an easy way in, and then I can go to a more conversational opening question. I'll do physical stuff if I absolutely can't think of anything else. But whenever possible, I try to compliment a quality of a person. So instead of, I like your shoes, it can be, wow, you have such good style, because their style isn't bought. It's their creative expression. Or if they gave a speech at a wedding or something earlier, I will compliment that. Or if it's a podcast guest and I'm familiar with their work, I'll compliment that. I also love what's something you're excited about right now. It's close to Vanessa's questions, but it separates it more from work, and it lets people

Starting point is 00:11:12 talk about the new season of severance finally coming out after years after far too long of waiting or a new hobby that they've started. And something about it just feels a little more casual and easy to slip into conversation to me. And people love this question. They'll always kind of pause and then they'll say, hmm, and then they'll launch into a story that I would never expect and then the conversation is off and rolling. I also have a little conversational trick, and I will share it with you right now. I can't remember where I first heard this, but I've since validated it. Essentially, for rich women in the Victorian era, it was considered part of their skill set to be well-read and knowledgeable in current events, in the arts, and culture,

Starting point is 00:11:56 so they could introduce topics that entertained and delighted their guests. While I am not at all interested in returning to that era, I love dental hygiene. I love, you know, having rights too much. I do think that the idea of doing a little prep work and arming yourself with conversation topics, instead of just winging it and hoping for the best, is genius. And it can be applied by anyone of any gender and any social class. So my version of that is I will always have a few interesting things in my back pocket to talk about. And if I'm going to a party or some other socially intense event, I'll even do a little

Starting point is 00:12:37 brainstorm and even make a little list on the notes app of my phone. I'll think about interesting things that I've heard or watched or read recently. And then in the conversation, I'll say something like, I was just listening to this podcast and the guest was saying that couples shouldn't split expenses 50-50 if they don't make the same amount of and they got into this whole debate that I can't stop thinking about. What are your thoughts? Or something like, I read an article that said lighthouse parents have more confident kids and then I would explain what a lighthouse parent is and I would ask them for their thoughts. Also, I have a conversation card deck company, but you can also just Google great conversation starters. And then, because it can

Starting point is 00:13:17 sometimes feel like a lot to just break out a list of conversation starters or a card deck or something like that at a party, you can say something like, I was doing this conversation card game with my friend this morning and this question came up. And then you can say the question. They're just little ways to make sure that you come into a conversation feeling prepared. It takes so much of the anxiety away just to know that you have these topics ready at hand. It also speaks to the idea that the most interesting people are the most interested people, both in the conversation at hand, but also in the world at large. I love the idea of wanting to have more interesting things to talk about, inspiring us to live more interesting lives and expose ourselves to more interesting material.

Starting point is 00:14:03 If this is the push that you need to read articles or books or listen to podcasts or take up a new hobby or engage with philosophical questions, that is amazing and it will only enhance your life. I use this trick all of the time. I use it for the hair salon because you have to make conversation for literally hours there. I use it at parties. I use it at work events. And it not only alleviates a lot of the pressure, which alleviates anxiety, but it also just leads to really interesting conversations. I very rarely get genuinely excited about skincare, but this is one of the most innovative products that I have come across in years. And I am so upset. with it. I've been telling all of my friends to get it, so now I need to tell you guys.

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Starting point is 00:15:35 skin's biological age at the molecular level. OSO1 goes in and it clears out the senescent cells so it helps skin function like healthier, younger looking skin. It is a lot of the molecular-looking skin. It is not masking the signs of aging. It's not targeting one thing. It is actually rolling the clock back at a cellular level. I've been using the face moisturizer for almost six months now and I love it so much. It feels amazing. It goes on really smoothly. It's not tacky at all. And I actually see a difference, which I just feel like is never the case with skincare. You want to always like see a real difference and you're kind of like, do I? Do I? And this I genuinely do. Because it's clearing the senescent cells, it doesn't just target one thing. So my skin looks firmer. It looks glowier. The texture feels dramatically smoother.

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Starting point is 00:18:30 and your sleep quality without you even realizing it. And again, we need to be able to breathe to get good sleep and getting good sleep is the foundation of our health. And then comfort-wise, Zach sleeps on his back and then I sleep on my side and my stomach. So we have two completely different sleep styles and we both wake up feeling really good, no aches and pains. CNN actually named the Birch mattress, the best mattress for side sleepers. And Wired named it the best organic mattress period. So there you go. Birch has options for every kind of sleeper in your household. They have three firmness layers. I like the Lux Natural, which is the medium one. And then parents, they even have a Birch Kids natural mattress.

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Starting point is 00:21:48 small talk and charisma, a lot of them share these little cheats like making eye contact or gently touching someone's arm or cheating your body toward them. And maybe these work. But also, I don't want you to feel like you have this huge list of things that you're trying to execute on in your head and then you're like moving your arm and you're trying to turn and you're staring deeply into their eyes and you look and feel like a robot and you're too distracted by all the things that you think you're supposed to be doing to actually enjoy or be a good participant in the conversation. So instead of that, I'm just going to share the two things that I think make the biggest difference. The first is your warmth. We like people who like us. Again, we are not

Starting point is 00:22:32 thinking about other people. We're thinking about them in relation to ourselves. There's a really great classic psychology study where researchers basically told participants that the person they were about to interact with either liked or disliked them. People who were told the other person liked them self-disclosed more, they disagreed less, they expressed dissimilarity less, and they had a more positive tone of voice and general attitude than people who believed they were disliked. And then it gets even more interesting, these behaviors led to the other person showing these same positive behaviors back. They created this positive feedback loop where they had better interaction and they both liked each other more because one of them simply believed that the other

Starting point is 00:23:17 person liked them at the start. When I go into an interaction, I genuinely try to like the other person that I'm talking to because it will kickstart that positive feedback loop and make a them like me more and make our interaction more positive and make me like them more. If I'm already feeling that great, I really try to dial it up. If I am not, I first try to notice something about them that makes me feel more warm toward them. Or I just ask myself, how would I act toward this person if I really liked them? Or if you want to take advantage of the study in a different way, you could ask yourself, how would I approach this conversation if I believed they really liked me.

Starting point is 00:23:59 You can kick off that positive feedback loop at any point. At worst, just smile. Some of my favorite psychology research points to the fact that positive emotions make a smile, but also smiling actually increases positive emotion. So simply partaking in the act of a smile can make you feel happier and behave more warmly toward a person. The second thing is listening. The absolute best conversationalists are listening far, far more than they're talking.

Starting point is 00:24:30 If you come away from a conversation with somebody and you're like, wow, that person was amazing, it is rarely because they have droned on all night. You're rarely like, wow, what an amazing story that person told. I really like them. We like people when they make us feel like stars, when they give us the space and the safety to tell our sparkling stories and reflect on our lives. This is just human nature. Go into conversations thinking less about how you can dazzle and more about how you can create space for your conversational partner to dazzle.

Starting point is 00:25:03 And trust me, people will be obsessed with you. They'll come away from the night being like, I can't quite put my finger on why, but I loved that person. One of my absolute favorite ways to do this is to listen for what Dr. Marissa Franco, who is a psychologist, she's a former podcast guest who specializes in friendships. she calls this thing the conversational cthexis. This is that thing that people clearly want to talk about, so it keeps slipping into the conversation almost against their will. Maybe they keep alluding to a marathon that they ran.

Starting point is 00:25:36 Maybe it's about their kids, but they'll kind of slip it in, or they'll keep somehow coming back to it. And this isn't intentional at all on their part. This is just what is on their mind. But if you are listening for that thing and you can hear them doing that, then you can seize that opportunity and you can ask them all about it. I love this for two reasons. One, that conversational cathexis is usually the thing that they want to talk about the most,

Starting point is 00:26:04 even if they're not consciously aware of it. But also, it makes you such a good listener because you're looking for these little cues, these little clues about what the conversational cataxis is, which will make them like you more and it will make the conversation so much better. That is actually an important thing to note. We're not just manipulating people into liking us more. We're actually making conversations better. We're making them more satisfying and richer.

Starting point is 00:26:33 Being a great listener leads to amazing conversations, and it's something that honestly we are getting worse and worse at. I think part of this comes from social anxiety. As we're listening, we're trying to figure out what we're going to say next, so we come off as smart and interesting and cool. But this comes back to what we say isn't what makes people think that about us. Them feeling smart and interesting and cool makes them like us more. Remember the psychology study that we talked about earlier?

Starting point is 00:27:00 So when you're not fully engaged, you're making them think that you don't like them, which is making them less likely to like you. You are having the opposite of the intended effect. Also, while we are talking about this, can I just say pausing is fine? We've come to live in a society that fears silence. There was actually a study in 2012 about how social media has made people dread silence, how it's increased our anxiety around silence. And that was in 2012.

Starting point is 00:27:28 So I cannot even imagine how much it's grown in the decades since. Yet, studies show that being comfortable with silence actually makes people perceive you as more calm and confident. It's a tactic that I actually learned from a mentor early on in my journalism career. If you don't immediately fill a silence, the other person often feels the urge to, and then that is when they share the really interesting stuff. If you don't know what to say next, you can literally say, wow, that's really interesting. I'm going to take a second to think about that before I respond. It'll signal to people that you actually listened, which will make them feel interesting. And if there are loles, you can call back on the back pocket conversation starters, all of our Victorian lady things that we talked about earlier.

Starting point is 00:28:14 Also, this should go without saying, but please stay off your phone. I've been in so many conversations where the other person will reach for their phone in the middle of me talking and they'll start checking their messages or scrolling through Instagram. I honestly think it's so reflexive that they don't even realize that they're doing it, but it completely breaks my train of thought and it makes me feel like they're not interested in what I'm saying, which, per the research that we've been talking about, makes me think that they like me less. If you haven't heard of face-down phone theory, it's the concept that the mere presence of our phones is pulling our attention away from the people that we're with, even if that phone is face down. A study at the University of Texas at Austin found that the mere presence of our smartphones impairs our cognitive capability and functioning, even if we feel like we're giving people our full attention, we are impaired.

Starting point is 00:29:08 Another study found that technology at any table caused people to feel more distracted and less socially engaged, leading to a decrease in overall enjoyment. Put your phone away. Please put your phone away. Your relationships and your conversations will benefit so much. All right. Those were all of my best tips after thousands of hours of conversation and lots and lots of research.

Starting point is 00:29:35 I promise, listen to this episode a few times. try these tips out and it will completely change how you feel in social environments. Being able to engage in excellent small talk is such a superpower. It can make our lives happier and more satisfying. And I cannot wait to hear your success stories. If you loved this episode, you will probably also love our episode with Priya Parker called The Secret to Finding Your People, having more meaningful gatherings and creating a community that you love. It's all about how important gathering is, even if you don't,

Starting point is 00:30:07 don't self-identify as a party person, and it's filled with science-backed secrets for how to throw parties and even just contribute to parties as a guest in a way that feels truly soul-satisfying. I will link it in the show note so you can cue it up next. Oh, just one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional. I'm genuinely confused how master class gets literally the absolute top people in every single

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The Liz Moody Podcast - BEST OF: Hate Small Talk? 11 Ways to Make Any Conversation Actually Feel Good

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