The Liz Moody Podcast - Busting Myths About Aging: Live Longer and Feel Better with Dr. Becca Levy

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

My guest today is Dr. Becca Levy, whom Adam Grant calls “the world’s foremost expert on the psychology of aging.” She’s a Professor of Epidemiology at the Yale School of Public Health and Professor of Psychology at Yale University, and has authored pathfinding studies have changed the way we think about aging and received numerous awards. Her new book, Breaking the Age Code: How Your Beliefs About Aging Determine How Long and Well You Live, is available for pre-order now—it comes out on April 12 and will be available wherever books are sold! how your beliefs about aging can literally negatively impact cortisol and inflammation levels the single shift that can dramatically impact the genes that impact the expression of Alzheimer’s and dementia (even if you have the “riskier genes”) 3 tangible ways you can improve your beliefs around aging why the idea that memory gets worse as you get older is a myth (plus, simple ways to improve your memory!) how to change your beliefs around aging and your body even if you’re experiencing health problems or society is bombarding you with negative messaging the core reason WHY we have so many anti-aging beliefs (the answer will surprise you!) how different cultures around the world approach aging things that get better as you age, according to science I would LOVE to hear from you any thoughts, reactions, or takeaways you have as you’re listening, so definitely screenshot and tag me @lizmoody on Instagram! I would SO appreciate it if you shared this episode or any favorite episodes with someone you love in your life! This episode is sponsored by Seed. You can get 15% off your first month’s supply of Seed’s DS-01™ Daily Synbiotic by going to https://seed.com/daily-synbiotic and using the code LIZMOODY. This episode is sponsored by Thrive Market. Go to thrivemarket.com/healthiertogether to get 40% off your first order AND a FREE gift worth over $50! This episode is sponsored by Dame. Visit www.dameproducts.com/healthiertogether and my 15% off discount will automatically be applied at checkout—you can use it on anything sitewide! Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I am a cookbook author and long-time journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're tackling budgeting and investment strategies, figuring out how to elongate our health and lifespans, or getting rid of bloat and constipation. And yes, those are all real episodes, so if you want to know more about any of those topics, just scroll on back in the archives. Today's episode is all about busting myths around aging, namely that you hit 30 and it's all

downhill from there, which is something that I hear far too often on TikTok. In fact, there's a lot of fascinating science that demonstrates that much of what we think about aging is wrong. And if you can shift your beliefs around aging, you can literally add years to your life, like you can change your physiology, which is wild. Whether you're in your 20s or in your 50s and beyond, there's so much in this episode that will change not only your mindset, but the actual expression of your DNA. Yes, really. It's like, it's honestly crazy. My guest today is Dr. Becca Levy,

whom Adam Grant calls the world's foremost expert on the psychology of aging. She's a professor of epidemiology at the Yale School of Public Health and a professor of psychology at Yale University and has authored pathfinding studies that have changed the way we think about aging and received numerous awards. Her new book, Breaking the Age Code, how your beliefs about aging determine how long and well you live, is available for pre-order now. It comes out on April 12th and will be available wherever books are sold. I want you to come away from this episode feeling empowered to not only live longer, but to live better, and to stop being so afraid of getting older, which is literally something that we all have to do, because the alternative is less than ideal. We talk about how your

beliefs about aging can literally negatively impact cortisol levels, inflammation, and Alzheimer's biomarkers. Three tangible ways you can improve your beliefs around aging. Why the idea that memory gets worse as you get older is a myth, how to change your beliefs, even when society is bombarding you with negative messaging around aging, how different cultures around the world approach aging, things that get better as you age according to science, and so much more. Getting older is a topic that's particularly near and dear to my heart. I went through a period this year where I was like, oh my God, am I too old to be doing this job?

Am I at the end of my career? And it's like, no, I am in my 30s, for God's sake. I'm just getting smarter and more experienced and frankly, better dressed. Anyway, I would love your thoughts on the episode. So please screenshot and tag me on Instagram. I am at Liz Moody. And like, share with everyone you know. Truly, send them the episode.

Changing beliefs about getting older literally adds years to our lives, and that change is so much easier if we're all doing it together. And if you are new to the pod, don't forget to follow or subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes. We've got a wedding regrets and favorites one coming up, which should be a ton of fun, along with a brand new gut health Q&A and a new style episode just in time for warmer weather. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe so that you do not miss out. All right, without further ado, here's Dr. Becca Levy, busting myths about aging. Dr. Levy, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. I'm so excited to bust some myths about aging.

Oh, great. Thank you. Great to join you. I would love to start off by reading a quote from your book. So this is your writing. I'm going to read back to you. I hope that doesn't make you blush too much. Thank you. While analyzing data from my study about the lives and outlooks of the inhabitants of the small town of Oxford, Ohio, I found that the single most important factor in determining the longevity of these inhabitants, more important than gender, income, social background, loneliness, or functional health was how people thought about and approached the idea of old age.

Age beliefs, it turns out, can steal or add nearly eight years to your life. That feels absolutely wild to me. Can you share how on earth that can be true? We know that there are these age beliefs that exist in our culture. we all encounter, and we know that from our science, that they can have direct impact on our health in number of different ways. I've done some research that actually all started from an observation I made up with my grandmother. We were together in a store and she fell over a crate that was left in the middle of an aisle, and she got this big gash on her leg, and it was really terrible. And we told

the store manager what had happened. And instead of apologizing for leaving this crate, he immediately said, well, why are older people out about anyway? They shouldn't be walking, then it's her fault. And I became really disturbed not only by what he said, but the impact it had on her health. I noticed that she didn't want to go for walks. She didn't want to engage in her usual exercise. I noticed it affected her mood. She felt sort of ashamed about her own aging and herself as an older person. And we know from our research also that it could influence our biology. So these age messages can have a real impact on our health in a number of different ways. Yeah, can you speak to how it can literally negative impact our physiology? That I think that's a really hard concept for me to get my

head around. Yeah. So one of the things that I was really interested in doing this research to try to understand how is it that our culture can actually impact our health. And so one of the things that I've been really interested in is looking at this biology, as you point out. And we have found that those who take in more negative age beliefs can have differences in their biomarkers such as cortisol, which is perhaps the largest known stress biomarker. It can have an impact on Alzheimer's disease biomarkers in our brain, so plaques and tangles. And it can also have an impact on inflammation markers. We know that these age beliefs can impact the biology, but then we know the biology, these factors can influence our health and our longevity, as the quote that you read from.

Is there an easy way to explain why that's true? Why a thought that you have would translate to your cortisol or translate to your Alzheimer's plaques in your brain? Yes, I think these age beliefs can act as kind of a lens on how we take in the world. So when we're able to take in more positive age beliefs, it can actually lead to a number of benefits. So it can actually reduce stress and it can reduce cardiovascular outcomes. But the negative age beliefs, unfortunately, when we take in those messages, they can amplify some of these negative processes, such as they can increase our stress levels. Okay. So it's almost a downstream effect of the belief impacts things like stress, and then that impacts things like cortisol. Exactly. That's a great way to say it. I like how you said it, because I think that's really important, the idea of an upstream factor, which can have all of these impacts downstream. So I think that's important because

we know that these age beliefs can have an impact on a whole bunch of different health outcomes. And I think the reason is because they act as this upstream factor, a lens of how we can see the world. Let's talk about Alzheimer's for a second, because it scares me more than almost anything. And you have a very personal connection to it, right? Your grandfather had it. Exactly. Yes. My grandfather, unfortunately, suffered from Alzheimer's. And he was particularly sad because he had a photographic memories. So some of my earliest memories of him are him reciting back like menus and restaurants or pages from books. I mean, so he had this wonderful memory. He actually created a comic book company. So he was really interested in ideas and words. And then at some point, he did develop Alzheimer's,

which was very scary. And that's actually one of the things that inspired me to try to understand. What are the factors that contribute to Alzheimer's and also are there things we can do to try to prevent? some of these Alzheimer's disease outcomes. And with Alzheimer's, it feels like less of a downstream effect. I might get this wrong. So feel free to correct me. But it feels like it was literally impacting the expression of our Alzheimer's genes in our bodies. Is that right?

And for somebody like very new to the concept of something impacting our genes, can you explain what is going on there? Sure. Yeah. So that's a great question. And in some of the research that I've conducted and some research we know from the field, we know that only 25% of our health is determined by our genes. So we know that 75% are due to psychological factors or things that we can actually control.

And then when it comes to Alzheimer's and dementia, we know that there are these risky genes that many people are born with that increase their risk quite a bit of developing Alzheimer's. But something that is really hopeful that came from my research that I present in the book is that we also know, even people who have the risky gene for Alzheimer's, if they develop positive age beliefs, they can reduce their risk of developing dementia to the same level as somebody who doesn't have that risky gene. So they can reduce it by 40 percent, they reduce the risk by 40 percent. And part of that is if they can take in more positive age beliefs or generate more positive age beliefs. That seems to make a real difference. Do you think then that doing genetic

testing where it tells you that you're more likely to get Alzheimer's would actually make it more likely for Alzheimer's genes to express themselves because you create a belief that they will? That's a good question. I mean, I think that there is a lot of different ideas about when to tell people about genetic risks, particularly if there's nothing they can do about it. And I think that is a danger of some of these genetic tests is that they just give a readout that says, you know, your risk of this is 5%, your risk of this is 80%, but it doesn't have the context of what those results actually mean or whether there's things people can do to change the risks. But I do think that people can be proactive too. So I think if people find out information that there are at higher risk, we know

now that there are things that they can do to prevent the likelihood. Because we also know that many people who have these risky genes don't go on to develop whatever the bad health outcome is. So there is this room for us to jump in with proactive things we can do. Okay, so let's talk about those proactive things that we can do. It seems like your research is primarily focused on the idea of changing our beliefs to change the expression of our genes. So how do we change a belief? Can we just do affirmations, even if we don't necessarily believe what we're saying? Can you maybe give us like three tangible science-backed things that we can start doing today. Sure, yes. In breaking the age code, I present probably about 15 different evidence-based things

that we can do today that can actually improve our age beliefs, which we know can have some benefits for our health. So just to give you an example, we know that one of the most important parts of this is to actually increase our awareness, because a lot of people don't even know that they have age beliefs, but everybody does. Everybody has taken an age. belief starting at young as age three. Most children already have age beliefs that they've heard from fairy tales and from observing their grandmothers and grandfathers. There are a lot of messages about aging that we all encounter over our lifespan, but we also aren't always aware of what they are. One thing I found that is particularly powerful is to do something I call age belief journaling.

And that involves for one week writing down any portrayal of aging that yet you notice in advertising and streaming your favorite show in a conversation with a friend, a conversation that you overheard in a coffee shop, via magazine, something historical. So whenever you hear a portrayal of aging, the suggestion is to write it down and then mark whether it's a positive portrayal or a negative portrayal. And then at the end of the week, write down how many of the portrayals were positive and how many were negative. And with the negative ones, take a moment to think about could there have been a different portrayal of that person? Is there a way that that could have been a presentation that was actually something affirming about in a celebration of aging? And we have found

that even just marking down that awareness over a week can make a real difference. Okay. Are there a few other ones you could share? Maybe two more? Sure. So another thing that we found is really helpful is to develop a portrayal or a portfolio of positive images. I think everybody has these positive images of aging that they've encountered, but they're not always forefront in our mind when we think about aging. I found if I ask people, what are your first five words or phrases that come to mind when you think of an old person, which is a question I've used in a number of studies. We found that in America, most times people, the first images people mention are often negative.

But by the time they get to their fourth or fifth example, they all. often are positive. The trick is how do we strengthen those positive, make those higher in the forefront of our mind when we think about aging. And something I have found is really helpful is to come up with, say, four examples of positive portrayals of older people, positive images of older people. They could be from your own family. They could be from your favorite book that you've read. With each example, then think about two qualities of that person that you admire and that you would like to strengthen in yourself. And that's something that we have found is actually quite good in strengthening positive age beliefs. I think the idealist of both become aware of,

block out, question the negative stereotypes, negative beliefs about aging, but find ways to strengthen the positive age beliefs. And then a third tool that people can pick up that's also evidence-based is to really just question the validity of something that's said and have a little bit of the knowledge of overcoming with science, something that's said that just doesn't match reality. And so in the book, I present 15 common myths about aging and then present the science which dispels it. So I think that process of really saying, hey, you know, what you just said, that doesn't match with a study show, I think can be really important. Look, I'm never going to make everything that I wear organic. But your sheets, your pillows, your comforter are literally touching your skin for eight hours every single night.

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Yeah, I'd love to actually go through some of those myths because I think they're interesting. A few of them I think that are interesting is that memory inevitably gets worse as we get older. Can you bust that myth for us? Sure. Yeah, that's a good one. And that's probably one of the most common myths that for everybody, memory inevitably gets worse with aging. We know from the science that there are many different types of memory. And some of them stay the same, such as what's called procedural memory, which is like riding a bike.

Some of them actually improve it with later life. So that would be examples of cognition and memory, such as learning new vocabulary words is something that often increases in later life. We also know that there's just incredible variability in people's memories. Writing the book, for example, I had a chance to talk to older people who had these amazing memories. So, for example, I had a chance to talk to this 84-year-old actor who took on the memory task of trying to memorize a 50,000 word poem, which is about the length of a novel like Lord of the Flies. It's insane. I don't know how any actors do it at any age, but doing it at that age is like even more remarkable. Exactly. Yeah. So I was so impressed. So he took on this task and he succeeded and he

actually did this great performance. He lives near where I live in Connecticut. Did this three or four days it took him to actually perform this great poem that he memorized. And what's interesting about him is that what he found really inspiring in memorizing the poem was he had his own positive image of aging that he thought of. So he thought of this cellist who played beautiful music into his 80s and 90s, which that really inspired him and motivated him to take on this great memory task. I love that. Are there any other things, according to your research, that would help if we wanted to end up on the good side of the memory stereotypes as we age? Yeah. I mean, I think there is evidence that, like, so for example, in this actor I was just

talking about that if we find ways to challenge ourselves, it's always a good thing. And I think for each person that can be in a very different way of how they challenge our memory, I mean, whether it's working on crossword puzzles or whether it's memorizing a long poem like John, this actor, or another person that I spoke to in the book who I really enjoyed talking to was this mushroom hunter, Patrick in California. And so he kept on learning about new mushrooms and where they were in different regions of California and ways to share that information with others. So, yeah, so there's a lot of different ways that we can challenge and work on our memories, I think. Well, and I loved the mushroom hunter example because he's not just about memory. he's really about how we can accumulate knowledge over the years and having all of that accumulated knowledge actually gives us a cultural, societal, intellectual advantage that I think sometimes

we're quick to discount. Yes, exactly. Great. Yes, I'm so glad you pointed that out. That was something that was really inspiring about this mushroom hunter, Patrick, was that he led these mushroom hunting trips with people of all ages and they really respected and enjoyed all the knowledge that he'd picked up. And I think that inspired him to be able to pass that information to other generations.

I think it goes both directions, which is really important. So we know from these intergenerational trips and projects and things that we do together, it can both improve the health of the older person, but also can improve younger people's beliefs about aging in general and their own aging. So when they get older, they'll have these positive interactions and images that they can draw and that can impact and improve their health as well. I know it feels a little tricky almost though because it seems like younger people, one of the missions would be to not expose themselves to, I guess, people who have internalized the negative stereotypes around aging. So it's almost like you want to go find elderly people to hang out with, but you want to make sure they're all really positive elderly examples.

But those elderly people have grown up in a world where perhaps they didn't have elderly positive examples. And then you're just kind of like, I don't know, all drifting around trying to find the good connections versus the ones that might have. have more negative impact? Yeah. So that's an interesting observation. But I think there are just so many qualities that people have. So we know as people get older, they actually get more diverse and more different from each other. I think with any older person, I think part of the challenge if we're getting to know them is to try to understand all of their different qualities. So it is true that certain qualities that might be trying to overcome because they've taken these negative age please, but they, I'm sure, have some qualities which are really strengths that we can notice and

build on and connect to. It may take a little bit more work sometimes, but yeah, but I think it's always possible. A lot of the people I know who have a hard time with aging physiologically are experiencing active negative impacts on a daily basis. Like I'm thinking about people where their back hurts or their hip hurts, which seems like it would get in the way of them thinking like, I'm Spray, I'm healthy, I'm young. Is there a way that we can, can change our aging beliefs when our bodies that we have to live in every day are sending us a very different message? Yeah, so that's a good question. And one thing that I found in my research that is really important is how we think about health problems. And I think there's a tendency to

automatically blame aging as we get older. And sometimes just taking a step back and thinking, okay, I have this ache in my back. What does it do to? And so sometimes it could be due to a circumstance of something that maybe the person was shoveling the day before or was doing a new exercise, a new yoga pose that pulled their back out. I think just taking a moment and trying to think about why there are health challenges and whether there are different ways to explain it that aren't just aging because often when we have these changes or challenges, there are, other things going on in our lives that we can mark. And some of those we can improve and change. So that's what's really important. So not only can we improve our age police, but often if we come up

with a cause for an ache or for not being able to hear something, maybe there was loud things happening in a restaurant that makes it hard to hear. By thinking about what are the circumstances around a challenge, then we can redirect some of that blaming on aging, which isn't often the real cause. I think it's hard because there's some nuance there, right? Because I know that certain things in my body have gotten different as I've gotten older. So I think there's nuance in holding like somebody who might not sleep as well as they used to or you look at your face and there are wrinkles where there didn't used to be wrinkles or you do a workout and it feels harder. It feels hard to try to switch the mindset and be like, well, this could be because of this, this could be because of this,

when there are proven effects of getting older on your body. You know what I mean? Yes. I think there are some changes in aging. And yeah, so it's good to notice them, but also look for examples. In the book, for example, we had fun writing a chapter on physical changes in later life. And what was really interesting and exciting for that was I was able to talk to these athletes, these women in their 80s and 90s who took on new exercises, new physical challenges, and were able to show quite a bit of improvement. I think there are these role models of people that are able to accomplish great things in later life. So I think thinking about some of those examples can be inspiring. But I think also if there are health challenges that could benefit from a health care provider,

it's also important to go see a health care provider. Can our beliefs change any of those other types of physical manifestations of aging? Can our beliefs change our loss of hearing or eyesight or loss of muscle density or balance? Or what about like even physical wrinkles on our face? Yes. So in our research, we've looked at a number of different kinds of health outcomes. So a lot of things you just mentioned, we actually have found that those who take in more positive age beliefs, who strengthen those positive age beliefs from the culture. If we're able to do that, that can lead to better hearing performance over time. It can lead to better physical recovery.

So if somebody has an accident, we know that if a person is able to take in more positive age beliefs, they show faster recovery and better recovery from experiencing some kind of fall or disability. And we also know that it can impact our lifespan or health span. It is possible that these age beliefs can have a direct impact on our health. Okay. Well, how about if we're rewriting these negative beliefs about aging for ourselves, but the rest of the world is not?

Like, they're coming from the outside. And I'm thinking of everything from job applicants being kind of overlooked for jobs that they're very, very well qualified for. Or like literally on a much smaller level, people being told that they're like too old to know what's cool or to be on TikTok. What do we do about that? Like, what do we do? We can change the internal stuff all we want, but if we can't change how the external world is treating us, that can only take us so far. Yes. So I'm really glad you brought that up.

That's a great question. I do know from my research that there are these individual ways that we can improve our positive age beliefs and reduce the negative ones. But as you point out, if we keep on encountering those negative messages, it's really important to think about, is there a way to actually reduce those messages? So why should there be so much negative messaging, as you mentioned, social media and advertising in all these different forums? And I think what's really exciting about this topic is I think we're at the verge of a social movement to overcome the negative age beliefs. So we've seen this reckoning

in other areas of social justice and trying to improve inequality and injustices and negative stereotypes about other groups. I think we're at the point where there is so much ageism out there. And we now have this research that shows that this ageism can really have an impact on our health. I think we're really at the point where we could have a age liberation movement and actually try to overcome some of this negative messaging. So then are we supposed to, I don't know, become age activists or sit around and wait for that to happen? Like, is there on an individual level, if that is the struggle, if you're like, I'm awesome, but then you go to a job interview and you don't get it or your kid makes fun of you for being on TikTok or somebody had a

store is like, oh, should you really be wearing that outfit or trying that on? How do we do that on an individual basis without kind of dropping everything in our lives to become ageism activists? Yeah, so that's a great question. I think people of all ages can become age just activists. I think that that's an exciting trend that will hopefully gain momentum going forward. But I think what you're pointing out are great examples of little things that we can do in our own lives to start to make small changes. And I think when we all make these little changes, they can add up and make a real difference for our culture and our society. But so in the examples that you're mentioning, so if somebody encounters ageism in applying for a job, which we know can happen quite frequently

or in a health care setting, I think it's really, so once we become aware of these examples of ageism that, you know, that we experience, that our loved ones are experiencing, I think there is always teaching moments. So opportunities to help other. people become aware of when they're expressing the negative messages. And, you know, it's something I found when I hear these negative messages is I don't always have a quick response right away. Like sometimes I'm the type of person that, you know, needs to think about what do they say? And why is that not true? And why is that offensive? So, and I think there's always, it can be an immediate teaching moment where you can say, hey, the science just doesn't match what you're, you know, presenting to me. Or you can go back to

somebody. So that's what I've actually found is really useful. So you can go back to somebody and say like, hey, you know what you said yesterday in this setting? It really doesn't match what the science is. And it actually doesn't, you know, it can be harmful to older people. So maybe there's another way to think about it. Do our own beliefs, I'm thinking about all those scenarios too. Like do our own beliefs about ourselves change in a measurable way, how other people would perceive us? If we go into a job interview and we don't believe we're too old for it. If we wear an outfit and we don't believe we're too old for it, does that change in a measurable way, how other people would perceive those actions? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think we know that there are these really important

back and forth examples of how prejudice can work in a group or with two people interacting. So, you know, I think sometimes just by presenting oneself as, you know, a counter example as somebody who can really show that a stereotype doesn't make sense can actually change how somebody thinks. But it's sometimes because people aren't always immediately aware of their age beliefs, because they can operate implicitly or without our awareness, I think sometimes it might take a conversation or going a little bit further in exploring how something. somebody thinks about something and trying to help them see that there's another way that they can think about aging and think about how culture, you know, presents aging images. When you think about strength and resilience, like your ability to feel energized, to recover well, to stay strong as you get older, what do you think that actually comes from? Most people say working out are good nutrition.

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slash Liz Moody. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. And I've been thinking about, and I'm curious if you have any research that supports this, but it feels like the ageism is becoming prevalent at even younger and younger ages. Like, there's these age beliefs around, I don't know, you see people on TikTok who are like, I'm old, I'm 25. And then there's things like the Forbes 30 under 30, which Really, I think, in an insidious way, drives home this cultural notion that we need to accomplish the great things in our lives before we turn 30, which is so young. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts or research on these ages and beliefs as they're sort of trickling down earlier

and earlier in the decades of our lives. Yeah. So that is a good question. And I think there is evidence. So we have evidence. I had conducted one study looking at age beliefs over time and found that unfortunately, in the last 200 years, they've become more negative with passing time. And I think what you're saying is right, that one of the implications of this can be that we're lowering the age that's considered most popular, desirable age. And so I think, for example, with Botox, some of the advertisements, I think used to target people, like, say, over the age of 50. And now a lot of the targeting are young adults or even teenagers and making them scared of developing wrinkles and sort of portraying aging to something really scary that they can have preventive Botox at a really young age.

And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of messaging. I think I think some of the industries are realizing they can open up markets selling these anti-s, you know, so-called anti-aging products by making aging a scary event. rather than finding strengths in aging or, you know, celebrating aging, if they present it as something scary to avoid, it helps them, unfortunately, sell different products. So do you think that consumerism is sort of at the heart of a lot of our societal anti-aging beliefs? Yes. I definitely think that we can understand how ageism operates by thinking about who profits from it and, you know, why are they profiting from it? And what does somebody get out of of presenting aging as a scary message. And often, if we take a step back, we can find some kind of,

as you said, commercialism or profit that's behind that. That's so interesting. Do you have any other examples? I mean, the obvious ones are like skincare, anti-aging skin care, Botox, things like that. But are there any sort of more insidious, less obvious examples of that that you can like, I don't know, have that glass-shattering moment in your own life? Well, I think one thing that I've looked at that I, you know, write about in breaking the age code is social media as a source of structural ageism. So I have daughters who pointed out to me some of these negative messages that they were noticing about aging. So it made me wonder if some forms of social media could be actually presenting some of these ageist messages. And I did a study looking at

Facebook groups and looked at all the groups that were publicly accessible that presented an image of aging or had something to do with older people. And what we found were that most of these groups had negative messages about aging and up to 30% of them actually advocated banning older people from participating in everyday activities like shopping or swimming. Yeah. So we also know on social media that there's been digital discrimination. So there is a number of lawsuits that have been settled out of court, which have shown that older people are often excluded from job opportunity ads and ads for housing and different things are not presented to them. So there's a lot of different ways that ageism can actually operate in social media as well.

And you think that comes back, though, to, can you trace that back to consumerism or like people making profit? Yeah. Well, so, I mean, one thing I've thought about in trying to understand, like, why, Why are there so many negative messages about aging out there? I think the profit perhaps is from the clickbait. So I think we know from different research on social media that people are more likely to click on things that are kind of make them angry or are controversial or present something negative

about a group. And so I think there is an algorithm that perhaps benefits commercially from presenting these negative messages. I also wonder if because aging is the single probably most inevitable thing in human existence, if that makes it potentially the single most profitable thing in human existence, because every single person will have to age or the alternative is not great. So it's like you have a market of literally everybody if you create an ideal that is an impossibility, which is to stay static to not move through time in the way that every single human on the planet is required to do simply by the nature of being alive. Yeah. So that's a great observation. The way you said it,

I really like that. I think it is true that, yeah, it's a huge market. So creating fear around aging, if that can happen by different advertisers and marketers, if they can have both the older population who can want to turn time back or and also younger generation it can make them try to do anything they can to avoid a natural process of aging. So I think you're right. It's wild because then it's like if we're putting the ideal part of our life, if we're over, quote unquote, the ideal part of our life within the first third based on modern life expectancy, that's just such a depressing notion that that we have been able to sort of like internalize in a mass way.

True, yes. I think there are some really negative depressing messages. But I think on the other hand, though, something that I have really enjoyed about my research and I read about in the book is there's really, there are huge differences across cultures. So there are cultures that make aging, natural process of aging much more of an accepted process that embrace aging. So I think, you know, it's not inevitable. There's nothing inevitable about these negative messages. We can change them and reverse them. Wait, could you talk to me about some of the cultures where they like revere aging? What are they doing in those cultures? What does life look like? Yes, that's a great question. So one of the groups that actually really enjoyed talking to for the book was this group in Zimbabwe of grandmothers who have taken on this role, trying to improve the mental health of their community. And the way that they do that is they actually meet with people of different ages on what are called friendship benches. and they listen to what the person's problems are and they try to offer advice. And I think part of the reason that this friendship bench model has been so successful is the culture really embraces aging and thinks of these grandmothers

as these great sources of advice and support for people of all ages in the community. So they have, they come from a culture that has more positive age beliefs. And then by taking this action on this French events, they're actually further improving the positive age beliefs. So it can be this back and forth dynamic of a culture and a community that embraces aging and then that supports the older person and then the older person is supporting the community. I mean, it honestly sounds so nice. I have friends who are, you know, kind of of every generation.

And a huge complaint that I get from people in older generations is that they feel like they have so much to offer. They feel like they have so much wisdom to share. But then they feel like society is just kind of like, I've heard the words like, I am not being listened to and people are not listening to. and people are not listening to me so, so often. Yes, that's a great observation. So I think you're right.

So, I mean, there has to be a back and forth between the individual, you know, how they're feeling about themselves, the kind of age beliefs they take in, but also the community that they're in supporting them. But I think we all can take steps to start the process. We can only act for ourselves first. So I think by taking these little steps of improving our age beliefs, I think there could be a ripple effect. It could move outward and inspire other people.

Can you speak to some of the mental and physical elements? Just for people, I think a lot of people who might be listening to this might be like, okay, I'll try to change my age beliefs. It's going to be an uphill battle for a lot of us because we've been presented with so many negative age beliefs. So could you speak just to give us something in our arsenal to some of the mental and physical elements that actually do get better as we age, like things we can look forward to and be excited about?

Yes. I mean, so something that I found in my research is that there are these influences on many different aspects of psychological outcomes and physical outcomes. So we have found that when we can improve age beliefs, it can improve memory outcomes. It can improve different kinds of decision making processes. It can influence physical outcomes, our balance, our speed. It can influence things like physical recovery. it can also improve or elongate our lifespan itself. So that is, we know from the research actually that you talked about at the beginning of our

interview, when we find that people take in more positive age beliefs, it can actually make a difference of about seven and a half years of longer lifespan. So there's, yeah, there's a lot of benefits that we could look forward to. But I mean almost like at the root of that, like those are almost the results. But what are the age beliefs that we can internalize? Like, are there, I know that we're going to look for role models and all of that, but are there things that we can think about that are going to be like, I'm going to be more confident because research shows that people get more confident as they get older?

Like, what are the actual nuggets that are just becoming more positive in our lives as we age that maybe we can use to start to root in those positive aging beliefs? Sure. I mean, yeah, so that's a good question. I mean, so there are qualities that we know improve in later life from scientific studies. So, for example, we know that as people get older, they're often better at solving conflicts. So they gain knowledge and apply it to both interpersonal conflicts. So arguments that may be happening in the family, but also in sort of national conflicts, there can be an improvement in strategy and understanding how to overcome conflicts.

there can be, there's often an improvement in something called metacognition. So the ability to think about thinking, so to have kind of a meta level understanding of one's thinking processes can improve in later life. And then even though, and there also are examples of people who acquire different kind of physical resiliency as they get older as well. What do you mean by physical resiliency? see? Well, so for example, there is a stereotype that our brains stop improving in lighter life, but we know from research that these neural connections that we have in our brain, they keep on finding new ways to connect as we get older. So there is this growth that can continue that often we do see in older brains that if we find ways to sort of stimulate

and challenge ourselves can continue to form new connections. I will say I started taking tennis and Spanish lessons recently, and it was so interesting to me. It was almost like I was out of practice of learning, and I'm not that far out of college. You know, like I'm 10 years out of graduating. But I still hadn't practiced the art of learning in so long that it was almost a little bit rusty. And then when I got into the groove of learning, it felt so good. And it made me think about how much we segment, I don't know, changing our neural processes. and building those neural pathways in new ways and just learning to assimilate new information

to the earlier parts of our lives. Yeah, that's a great comment. And it's great that you've picked up the, we said tennis and Spanish. Is that what you just said? Yeah, tennis and I mean, I'm very bad at both. But it's so fun. Right. And I think that that is great. And I think finding things that, you know, that are interesting, exciting, fun to each of us is really important. I mean, so there's no catch-all change or thing that we can pick up that everyone could do. But I think each person can figure out what they most enjoy and find ways to develop those. And I think giving themselves permission to like be a beginner again too. I think there's also this notion that the earlier parts of your lives are for learning.

And then when you're 30 or 40, you can't pick up something and just be like bad at it. Yeah, that's a great point. think you're totally right that we can pick up new skills and learn new things and be okay with being a novice. I think you're totally right that it's always a little uncomfortable to start something new, but to kind of get beyond one's comfort zone can be a great thing. And that can happen at any age, as you say. Yeah, 100%. What are your thoughts on how retirement impacts how we age? I think retirement can mean, you know, a lot of different things to different people. So there are people who are forced to retire at a certain age who don't yet want to. And I think that can have a

negative impact. But there are a lot of people who look forward to retirement and have these great plans. And it really is something that is very successful for them. So I think there's just a lot of a lot of different models and a lot of different ways that it can impact our health. Is there a way to like have a better retirement and have it impact your health positively? because I know a lot of examples, unfortunately, of the latter where people retire and they get depressed and they get immobile and they just feel purposeless and kind of a drift. Yeah, so that's a great question. So I think finding purpose can be on two levels. So I think one is like as we're talking about, whether it's taking new tennis lessons or learning a new language,

I think those can be great ways to develop personal examples of purpose. But I think as we talked about, I think it's also a matter of finding a culture and a community that embraces aging and ideally a place that does not practice ageism or has very minimal ageism. And I think that was something that I really enjoyed in writing the book was thinking about different communities that could support getting older. For example, one of the places that I really enjoyed finding out about is this place called Greensboro, Vermont. And I found that there are many people who move there as they get older. because they see it as a great place to embrace aging and to experience aging. So I think both processes of finding purpose in one's own life,

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Again, that's 15% off at oneskin.com with code Liz. Is there any research about how having kids or grandkids impacts how we age? Huh, that's a good question. I haven't studied that, but I do think, you know, so in our studies, we do ask people about whether they've had children or grandchildren, and we find the effects in everyone. So I think it does, I don't think somebody doesn't necessarily have to have children or grandchildren to see the positive impact of improving positive age beliefs or, yeah, reducing the negative age beliefs. I think it seems like it's an equal opportunity benefit.

bit. Okay, so you don't think, I'm thinking about like the things I've heard about getting older. Like, if you don't have kids, nobody will take care of you when you're older. And then on the kind of, I guess, more positive angle, like grandkids keep you young because you're talking to them and playing with them and behaving in a multi-generational way and things like that. Yes, I think there is research that shows that intergenerational contact can really benefit both the younger people and the older people. but I don't think it has to be somebody who's genetically related to. I think that some of the examples that I came across in the book are people who are not related to each other, but who come together. So, for example, I had fun interviewing Liz Lerman, who is this great choreographer who

puts together these wonderful dances of people of all generations that come together. And they're not biologically related, but they come together and they encounter each other and enjoy each other and and grow from each other, even though they're not biologically related, but they come up with sort of meaning that they share. And maybe in that case, they actually find more meaning because they're looking for ways that they connect that goes beyond some of the biological connection. That's interesting. Do you think that when people joke about getting old, do you think that helps them accept it and normalize that there's a lot of like psychology to speaking something out loud and having that take away its power? Or do you think that that just,

of adds to the negative beliefs that we're all unwittingly internalizing when you're just like, oh, I'm I'm old, that's why this is happening or something like that. Yeah, so that's a great question. And something I've thought about a little bit is the role of comedy and humor, because there certainly are many jokes, a lot of comedy around aging. And I think there's just a lot of variability. I think there are some really harmful jokes that can kind of diminish how people feel about aging.

But there also are people like Mel Brooks who has created this great humor around, for example, this 2000-year-old man is a comedy bit that he did for a while, which really kind of embraced the idea of this ancient, older man. But it sort of made fun of it and thought about, but he made fun of it in a way that sort of brought out the strength of this man being able to navigate in this chaotic world. And it was, I think his comedy around aging is something that probably people of all ages could, you know, laugh from and kind of get a message. There's some good qualities that you can think about. So yeah. So I think I think you're right that, you know, comedy can shed light on negative things. But it can also be a way to embracing of aging as well. Okay. So is there a way to like tilt it in the right direction? Do you think it's okay to kind of be like, oh, like I'm too old for this shit? Or what's the right amount? that so that we're not reinforcing those beliefs to ourselves? Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably, I mean, I think sort of self-denigration humor can work, but I think too much of it can kind of put, make somebody feel, feel bad.

So there was, there was this video of this comedian from Australia, I think, who took a look at humor towards the LGBT community. I don't know if you remember this. Oh, was it Nanette? Yeah. Oh, I forget her name, but that was, yeah, it was a beautiful special. Yeah, so I thought that was so powerful. So she took a step back and said, hey, this comedy is actually, some of these jokes,

they're hurting my, you know, people I care about and hurting myself. And so she, I think, took a break from comedy and kind of reevaluated the way that comedy was being presented. So you're right. So it was, it was beautiful. And it really made me kind of question, think about humor. And so I think you're right. There's just so much out there about aging. And I think it's really important for us to question what the messages are behind it. Okay. This is a little bit tangential. But I kept thinking about it as I was reading your book and it scared me a little bit. So I'm just going to ask your thoughts on it. I'm curious because so much of your work is about the power of our beliefs, how that works with negative beliefs. Like I'm a hypochondriac. I always. often believe crazy stuff is wrong with my body. But I find a lot of respite and being like,

oh, that's just my mind and then I can dismiss it. But it sounds like your research would suggest that what is happening in my mind can actually impact my body in a real legitimate way. And in my case, when I'm thinking all these negative things, it would be in a negative way. So I'm curious, what I guess is the, can beliefs impact your body negatively as much as they can impact it positively? And is there sort of a limit to how much beliefs can impact your physiology? That's a good question. I mean, I haven't studied that. I think there, yeah, there are people who've studied that kind of thinking. So in my research, yeah, I pretty much focused on these images of aging that exist in our culture. But, you know, but I think you're right, there are these

parallels that are interesting to think about. Yeah, it's interesting because it brings to mind how much in the wellness world, there's a lot of ideas of manifestation and how much our beliefs can impact our reality. And I think we're always kind of trying to negotiate what that line is between what you believe is true and what is actually true and what you need to put out into the world and things like that. And I think your research is really interesting because it's not just like, oh, your beliefs impact how much you think you can do it, how much motivation you have things that are sort of happening on a mental level, but your research is about how your beliefs can actually impact you on a physiological level, which is kind of taking the notion a step further.

Right. And I think also the research shows that these age beliefs come from the culture and come from things that we encounter in everyday life in advertising and media and marketing. And also in our research, we have found that these age beliefs, they operate sort of above and beyond positive thinking and negative thinking. So it's something specific. in my research, which I have found, is that these age images alone are very powerful in inspiring and motivating us, you know, and having an impact on our health. That's interesting. So they're not just like us sitting around and thinking a conscious thought. This is operating on a much different level than the conscious thoughts that we might be

aware of on a day-to-day basis. Yes. I'm really glad you said that. And you're saying that, yeah, in a really great way. I think it's true that it's not just these internal beliefs that. that we develop with our personality. These are the age beliefs that I've been studying are actually coming from our culture and from watching an advertisement and hearing us a story about, you know,

that presents this negative portrayal of aging, which, you know, unfortunately, these images are, tend to be negative in our culture and it's really easy to encounter them. But we know from, you know, my research, we can shift them. We know from experimental research and from looking at different cultures, and looking at people over time, that there's a lot of room for us to develop these positive images

as well. That's interesting. Okay, so then to my hypochondria point, me having like a thought that something negative is going to happen is maybe not enough to necessarily influence my physiology on this deeper level. And then on the positive side, me looking in the mirror and saying like, you're going to have a great life as you get older, this is wonderful, might not be enough. And that's why you're pointing to things like getting positive. rule models looking at cultural narratives around aging, things that are a lot more deep and internalized than any thought I'm almost consciously in control of on a positive or negative side.

Perfect. Yes. You summarize those ideas in an excellent way. Yes. Yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. That was great. Okay, wonderful. Well, actually, it makes me feel better about the hypochondria stuff almost because it's like,

even with the hypochondria stuff, it's sometimes I'm like, well, what if this, what if this, because that's how anxiety works. But there is, I think, a deep underlying part of me that knows things will be okay. It's interesting to think about separating those top line notions with these deep underlying beliefs and focusing on how we can change these deep underlying beliefs. Yes, exactly. I think you're definitely right about that. There is this cultural component of these age beliefs that we really can control and can

operate differently from our everyday anxieties. I think these are really aspects of how we interact with our culture and our society and whether we try to overcome the ageism that we see in everyday lives. I think all of these things can really have an impact on our health. Which would also make it incredibly important. We've talked about this on this podcast a lot, but to really be careful about the media you're consuming, we talked about this on another episode where our notions of what like a good life looks like can become really skewed. when we're casually consuming, like keeping up with the Kardashians and selling sunset. And then all of the sudden we're like, well, if I don't have a mega mansion, I must not be successful. And we've just

internalized that without even, we've moved our benchmark without even realizing that. And I think having that really kind of strict and thoughtful media diet in terms of aging would be equally, if not more important. Yes, I think you're definitely right. So, and I found that actually with my own daughters. I've tried to curate the media and everyday messages that they're getting. So I think we can, as you say, come up with this diet that's kind of a healthier aging image diet. But I think also developing the skills to know what to do when we see those negative messages is really important because I think it's really hard to avoid it. There are going to be some negative messages, unfortunately, that we're likely to encounter. So knowing when to question

into those and when to try to flip them around, I think can also be really important. And that's to the point of all the stuff you were sharing earlier about like you're saying, well, is that really true? And what do I actually know is going on here and things like that? Exactly. Okay, cool. What has been your favorite part of getting older? Yeah. So I think one of the favorite things is getting to know different people and sort of And I guess something I talked about earlier is developing this portfolio of positive images of aging. So I've really enjoyed, that's one of the favorite things about my job is I get to meet a lot of people of different ages and talk to them about how they think about aging and how they think about their own age beliefs. And I feel like the more people I meet, the more examples of these amazing characters and, you know, role models and people I encounter.

So I feel like just having that opportunity to keep on coming up with more examples. And I'm always, I keep on being surprised. Like, I think I've heard it all. And then I'll meet a new person and they'll tell me a new story of how they have aged and think about aging and ways that they, you know, celebrated or things that they find our strength. And I'm, yeah, there's just so many great examples out there that I feel really lucky to be able to hear about and write about. Do you feel like things in your own life have gotten better with time every year? I mean, I wouldn't say with a pandemic, it necessarily things have gotten better every year. Yeah.

I mean, there's certainly been a lot of challenges over the last few years, I feel like. But I think I'm always trying to look for ways that there can be sort of growing experiences even with challenges that are out. there. Which I guess actually underscores the point that there's your situation and then there's how you react to your situation as well. And it sounds like a lot of the positive examples of aging that you found, even if they face real struggles in their bodies, in their lives in all of those things, it's they're dealing with them and reacting with them and responding to them in different ways. Exactly. Yes. I think that's definitely true is that there's this interaction of how we control our environments and control are the kinds of ways that we think about things that are

happening around us and then what is actually happening around us. And there's always this dynamic of adjusting and going with changes and some of the things we can't necessarily control. But I think there's always different ways that we can adapt. Okay, well, to the point of what we can control, can you just leave us with one homework assignment, like something that we can all do today so that we can live as long as possible and feel as good as possible doing so. I would recommend this age belief journaling that we talked about. So I have found that that can be really powerful. And it's something you can start right away. I think that even today, as people are listening to this, I think they can start to, you know, take out their cell phone or take out

their notepad or whatever it is and really become a detective in your own life and try to understand of your own age beliefs. So try to think about when your own age beliefs are being sparked by different things that are happening, but then also try to be aware of the different messages that you're encountering, whether it be in social media or in a conversation. I think that combination of becoming aware both of ourselves and what we're encountering can be really powerful in starting the process of improving our age beliefs. I love that. And then if anybody listening is looking for more of those positive role model examples, I will note that there are a ton of them in your book. Great. Thank you so much. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge

and wisdom with us today, Dr. Levy. We really appreciate it. It was great to talk to you, Liz. Thank you so much for taking the time. I hope you loved this episode with Dr. Levy. Remember to check out her amazing book, Breaking the Age Code, wherever books are sold. Also, if you love this episode, please share it with someone in your life who you think would benefit. It's the single best way you can support the podcast, and I appreciate it so much. I would also so appreciate a quick rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Although, to be totally honest, if I had to pick one, I would choose you sharing a link to the podcast with anyone in your life. So you do you, and I love you no matter what. Make sure that you're subscribed or following so that

you do not miss out on any future episodes. We've got some great ones coming up, and I will see you next Wednesday on the next episode of the Healthyer Together podcast.