The Liz Moody Podcast - Carla Lalli Music—What Working At Bon Appetit Is REALLY Like, Genius Tips For Quick, Healthy Dinners, and #MeToo Moments In The Restaurant World

Episode Date: February 5, 2020

Carla Lalli Music is the former Food Director and current Editor-At-Large for Bon Appetit, which means that for years, she’s overseen the food content of and written for the magazine and multiple websites like Healthyish and Basically. She’s also a regular fixture on Bon Appetit podcasts and their mega-successful YouTube channel, where she helps celebrities learn how to book on Back-to-Back chef. Beyond that, she’s the author of one of my favorite cookbooks, Where Cooking Begins (one of The New Yorker’s best cookbooks of the year). On this episode, you get to know the woman behind the success, including: Her entire career journey that led to her job at Bon Appetit The #metoo movement & how being a woman impacted her early years in the restaurant world What life is actually like behind the scenes in the famous Bon Appetit test kitchen Exactly how someone can get hired by Bon Appetit or pitch them freelance pieces Her personal wellness routine, including her thoughts on trends like celery juice, charcoal, intermittent fasting, and CBD Her rules for getting gorgeous curly hair Her theory of “oranges” and “greens” for making the best quick healthy meal The three kitchen tools she’d recommend for a tiny apartment What’s it like to cook with super stars like Natalie Portman Her sage wisdom on aging and long term relationships And so much more! You can find Carla on Instagram @lallimusic. We’d both of course love to hear your thoughts and reactions to this episode, so please tag her and me—I’m @lizmoody— so we can continue the conversation over there. Enjoy! PS: Healthier Together is officially a number one best-seller! You can get your copy on Amazon or at lizmoody.com/cookbook. Please keep sending me your creations on Instagram—they make me so happy! This episode is sponsored by Garden of Life, one of my all-time favorite brands. I LOVE putting their collagen in my smoothies (I use the unflavored one three or four times a week) and they just debuted chocolate and vanilla varieties that include a few other types of organic plant-based protein. By using these links, you help let Garden of Life know that you found them through this podcast, which I massively appreciate! This episode is also sponsored by Pukka, whose tea I adore. They make incredible herbal teas with 100% organic ingredients, and they’re also certified Fair for Life. Beyond that, the Pukka bags are fully plastic free, and stitched together with 100% organic, non-GMO cotton. My favorite blends are Relax, After Dinner, and Tulsi Clarity, and Zack loves the Revitalize blend. You can find out more about Pukka at pukkaherbs.us. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthy Together podcast. I am your host, Liz Moody, and I am a journalist and cookbook author living in Brooklyn. And today I have on one of my absolute favorite women in the food world, an absolute powerhouse, Carla Lolly Music. Carla is the former food director at Bon Appetit, a little magazine that you may have heard of, which means she was basically heading up all of the food content that they produce from the print magazine to the websites, including basically in Healthyish, and also their amazing and hugely popular YouTube channel. She is currently the food editor at large for Bon App, and she writes a ton of content and appears in a number of their videos,

including her own hugely successful show, which is called Back to Back Chef. It's one of my favorite. She cooks with celebs like Nina Dobra, Anthony Prowski, Alessi Akara, who sings that song from Moana, that I'm obsessed with one that's like, I've been staring. Yeah, I'm not going to sing it to you, but Alessiacara,

Elizabeth Olson and tons more. She kind of like goes back to back with them and tries to walk them through cooking a recipe. And it's really funny and really fun. And we definitely talk about that on this episode. And I get some celeb scoop because you know I love my celeb scoop. She is also the author of When Cooking Begins, which is an absolutely gorgeous cookbook that really focuses on teaching people how to tackle every single stage of cooking. So it starts with the shopping and how she actually shops in her own.

life and she's also hard at work on her next cookbook, which I am so, so excited for. In this episode, we start off with the professional, including how she climbed the ladder to the absolute top of the food media world. And what she says when people ask her how they can get jobs at Bonap, including like how you can pitch and sort of write for Bonap, which I personally found interesting, it's a definite goal of mine to have a piece published with Bonap someday. So send positive vibes my way. And then also she talks about like what life is like behind the scenes of the famous BA test kitchen.

I think we've all sort of gotten familiar with the BA test kitchen through their YouTube channels. And they have this like very approachable tone in the magazine. And I don't know. It's fun to hear what it's really, really like beyond just kind of what they're showing you. And then because it's me and because it's healthier together, we get really personal too. we talk a lot about sort of it was it was before me too came around but uh what women were treated like in the kitchens in the restaurant world and you hear so many stories about what life was like in the restaurant world for women particularly when carlo was coming up so we talk about that a little

bit and um some of the stuff she shares it's honestly appalling um and we talk about her personal wellness routine and what it's like to go from being a relatively i mean she was a very powerful woman in the food world and in the media world, but she was relatively anonymous and she could sort of like go to the grocery store without getting recognized. And then B.A.'s YouTube absolutely blew up and her videos started getting millions of views. And so now she gets recognized on the street. And we talk about what that sort of fame for your face is like and how that messes with your mind and what you do with that. And we also talk about how working at Bon Appetit actually ended up messing up her relationship with food and how she actually fixed that.

Her thoughts on wellness trends like celery juice and charcoal and intermittent fasting and CBD and a ton more. And then we also answer your questions. You guys give me so many good questions on Instagram. So definitely follow me on Instagram if you want to leave questions for future guests. I always put up a thing before I interview somebody. I say, I'm interviewing this person and you guys can ask all of your questions. but you ask things like her top three kitchen tools, which I loved her curly hair secrets, which I thought was so, I don't know.

I think her hair is fabulous, but I wouldn't have thought to ask her that. So that was definitely a good one. And then what else did you ask? How to get inspired to cook when you're just feeling really blech and like you don't want to get into the kitchen. What do you make on those types of nights? So this is just one of those super fun behind the scenes episodes that gives an interesting glimpse into this like crazy world that we don't really get.

access to the food media world and producing a magazine like Bon Appetit. And these people are sort of dictating how we eat in this country and in the world in a lot of ways. And I just found that absolutely fascinating. And it's a great one if you're looking to have a really exciting career path. And then it's also just great if you're looking to get inspired in the kitchen, especially in a healthy food way. Carla has a theory on oranges and greens that I absolutely love. It's a great approach to healthy eating that I have never heard before. So if you love food, if you're interested in Bon Appetit, all of that, I think you're going to love this episode. We would love, of course, to hear from you as you are listening to the episode. So we want to know what you're loving,

what's making you gasp, what's making you laugh, what you agree with. So screenshot it as you're listening in whatever podcast player you listen to. And then tag both of us on Instagram. I'm at Liz Moody and she's at Lolly Music. So that's L-A-L-L-I music. And I love reading all of your comments. Your comments on the last episode with Chris Stanton were absolutely amazing. You guys had so many thoughts on body image and anxiety and how you sort of develop a healthy relationship with food and the Bachelor, of course. So I love reading all of those and I love carrying on the conversation over there. So please, please, screenshot, tag us. We would both love to hear from All right, I think that is it for me. So let's keep this super short. I hope you enjoy this episode with

Carla Lolley Music. Hi, Carla. Thank you so much for having me to your home. We have one of her beautiful cat sitting to my left. Correct. That's Peggy. She looks like a kind of one of those perpetual kitten cats. Yeah, she's got a very like girlish. You know, she's trying to keep her girlish demeanor. Yeah. I dig that. Is this, do you often work from home or is this like a special? special occasion? This is a special occasion. I'm actually taking some time out of the office to focus on my second book. Yeah. Well, let's get right into that. What's your second book? Because I've heard an interview with you where you said you wanted to keep sort of making things easier and breaking things down and like and redefining what a recipe could look like for home cooks. Is that what this one's about?

So this is going to be organized a little bit more instead of by ingredient or by like type of of preparation, like a, you know, like a soup chapter or a, you know, salad chapter. I'm organizing the next book around how we really cook in our real lives. So it's going to be divided between like how we cook Monday through Thursday and then how you cook Friday and the weekend because I started to notice after publishing where cooking begins that I would get tagged in certain recipes depending on the season, of course, but also depending on like the day of the week. So people make my pasta facie on Saturday and Sunday because it has like a four hour simmering time. And people make the charred broccoli salad on like Wednesday night because

it's a really easy like thing that could be aside on your, um, your weeknight supper. Right. So I started really thinking about, you know, that's really true. Like we cook different things depending on the opportunity in front of us. But I also believe that like cooking is one of those amazing things. You, have a reason to do it every day, you know, because we have to eat every day. So that I was trying, you know, organizing my thoughts around that. And so within the Monday through Thursday chapters, there's different scenarios. Like there's the weeknight supper, but there's also the things I want to eat when I'm trying to like burn clean with my husband and I call.

What is burn clean mean? Burning clean is a phrase that my husband and I kind of developed like 100 million years ago, before we were even married. And it's like what we want to eat when we've been kind of overeating or over drinking. So there's room in our lives for like big meals and nights with a lot of wine. But then maybe that Monday night you're like, can we just burn clean tonight? Which is just a healthy-ish meal. Right.

So what does a healthy-ish meal look like to you? Like something for me, we also, another phrase, which I learned from our friend of mine is like beans, greens and sardines as like a way of thinking about a meal. Okay. So burning clean might be just, you know, not having animal protein, not drinking. So grains and, you know, sauteed greens and maybe some like marinated feta. Like that would be a little grain bowl that you would have on like a burning clean night. And sardines are one of the healthiest types of fish.

And I think they're like often forgotten. Totally. I ate at a little wine bar up the street last night. And their whole menu is like sustainable and like, look. waste. Is that the new one that just opened? Yeah. It used to be meta.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's it called? Rodora. Yeah. And we had like tinned muscles and tin sardines and a really nice salad and some seedy bread and a little bit of cheese and it was like a great dinner, you know. So yeah, burning cleans, you know, stovetop suppers, things like that that come together really quickly is, you know, more.

how I want to cook when I'm getting home from work. Okay, so we're going to get into some of the more like cooking questions, but I want to roll back a little bit because I think a lot of people are very fascinated with how one becomes the food director in place like Bon Appetit and how one becomes a successful cookbook author. So let's start in your childhood. Oh, okay, great. All the way back. Were you raised in a food, like, interested family?

Yes, definitely. So we're Italian-American. So I think food is just like in the blood. But also my mother is an amazing cook, but also wrote about food and edited cookbooks and wrote cookbooks. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So she's a food writer going back to, you know, the beginning of her career as a journalist. Were you in New York?

I was born in Los Angeles. And then we moved to New York when I was a toddler. They grew up in New Jersey. So they're from Jersey. We lived in Brooklyn. Then we moved back to L.A. My sister was born there. And then we moved back to New York when I was eight.

Could they just like not decide? Well, it was really for job opportunities. Okay. Yeah. It was like they moved out to L.A. to work at New West, which was the L.A., the, you know, West Coast version of New York Magazine. So, and my dad worked at Esquire and Forbes. So your dad was a writer as well, just not in the food area.

Correct. Yeah. So they're both journalists and writers. And my mom ended up really on the food beat pretty early on. She was a restaurant reviewer and a food writer then moved into cookbooks. So my, our life in New York, she was the cookbook editor at Simon & Schuster. Oh, my God. Yeah.

And so the food at home was great. And then we also went out, you know, ate at restaurants a lot. And we would always have great food in restaurants. So for me, like, all the food was good. The food I ate out was great. The food we ate at home was terrific. Yeah. And it's funny because I didn't really grow up cooking with my mom.

I just grew up eating really, really well and watching someone who could make meals sort of appear out of thin air. That's what it seemed like to me. And I think we just had like a very healthy and, you know, emotionally positive relationship. to food. It was celebration. It was nurturing. It was love. And it was also just something that happened every day. Okay. And I really didn't start cooking for myself until I got to college because the food was bad. It was like the first time. I was like, this food's not so good. And when you went to college, what did you think you were going to be? As far as my career. I didn't know. I had a, I went to Brown and I studied literature and society, which was a major in the modern culture and media department,

which was really like a, it was like a critical, it was like a literary criticism, major, but that also had a lot of critical theory and like reading Foucault and like, you know, a lot of feminist literature and feminist criticism. So I was just enjoying this like liberal arts experience. And I like to write, but it was very like college essay writing. And then when I got out of school, I worked in book publishing for a couple of years. And then I worked in like the first wave of the internet in the late 90s. Yeah, which was, I know, like way ahead, like AOL dial up. Yeah. Yeah. And then the website that I was working for actually folded. So I was laid off and, I had like a little severance package like I think it was like eight weeks.

Okay. And I was 25 maybe. Um, and I was doing some freelance editing and copywriting on the side. But I really wasn't like, I just wasn't what I really wanted to do. And I remember being on the phone with my dad. And he said, you know, if you if you ever thought about going back to school, like this would be a great time to do it. Like it's a natural break.

And I decided to go to culinary school. It was like the only school I could imagine wanting to go to. I didn't want to get a PhD or a master's or anything like that. But I did. I was really interested in food and cooking and decided to enroll in the French Culinary Institute, which is now has a different name. It's the international culinary something, ICC, I think. Yeah.

And I did the full-time six months. month course there. And as soon as I started doing it, I was like, this is it. You know, I love this. I love everything about this. I love learning. I love making food. I love eating food. I love thinking about food. There was something very like magical about doing something with my hands because I never thought of myself as a creative person. Like I can't sing and I can't dance. I can't act. I can't draw. So I had never thought of myself as like creative. And then when I started cooking, it was like, oh, this is the thing you make with your hands, you know. And so straight out of school, I ended up working in restaurants.

So how did the restaurant world turn into the editorial world? I know you worked as the general manager at Shake Shack, which is overseen all the shake shacks, right? It's not like what we- At that time, there was only one Shake Shack. Okay. It was the one in Madison Square Park. Yeah. Okay.

What is? So you were like in this. kitchen and then how did you make the switch to being a manager? Well, I had worked my way up through line cook to like back of house operations. After Montresay, I was a private chef and then I ended up at Union Pacific where Rocco de Spirito was the chef. And I was a line cook there for a while and then ended up becoming the kitchen manager. So then had kind of moved more into budget, scheduling, ordering and receiving. Did you still like, I mean, did that scratch the same creative itch that cooking with your hands day yes because i think when i started cooking i thought

ultimately my goal was going to be to be a restaurant owner operator you know like a chef owner have my own place so being a line cook but then also getting to learn the nuts and bolts of the business i was like this is great because my hours are way better you know working daytime hours and responsible for the kitchen budget so um the food you know learning about food costs and expenses and like how to schedule. So it was kind of my first managerial experience surrounded by people who were like not good managers, but that's just how restaurants are. And I did that and then worked up through the ranks with staying with Rocco.

So I became like his main operations person, but I still would also sometimes cook in the kitchen. And also with him, I started doing press stuff because he was doing a ton of press. and he was also writing cookbooks. So he would go on TV like all the time. He'd go on Martha Stewart. He would go on the Today Show, whatever. And I would work with him on creating the recipe that he would demo.

And he knew that I had like a liberal arts degree that I could put a sentence together. So I think he saw in me someone who was like had restaurant experience but also had, you know, verbal skills, organizational skills. And like that was a good match. Did having like the insider view of media that you got from your parents help too? Or did you not like pay attention to that because you're a kid and you're like, I don't know how much that paid attention to it. I think just being a good communicator was really helpful. And I think I'm sure I leaned on my mom for help on how to write a recipe the first time, you know? Because when I was cooking, nobody had recipes. You just learned because someone showed you had to do it and you took notes in your little

notebook. I learned that the hard way interviewing chefs and being like, oh, can I get the recipe for And they're like chef written recipes if they have written cookbooks are appalling. They're so hard to follow. She's like, I don't know what you mean. And why are you doing that? Or it's like yields two gallons. They're like, oh, cool. Now I have two gallons of salsa verde.

So we're going to have to adjust that. Have a barbecue. Yeah. We'll get back to the career progression thing in a sec. But I'm curious, did you, we talk, there's been a lot of conversation about how women have been treated in the restaurant world. And you worked in it in a time before people were having those conversations. Oh, we were having those conversations. Maybe less publicly.

Yeah, one-on-one. Yeah. Are you good? Did you like having to change in an open area in front of all of your male co-workers? Interesting. I worked at Union Pacific. I was lucky at Montreche and at Union Pacific. I was the second woman hired.

So there was always had been someone who had been there solo. And at Union Pacific, I remember trailing. like doing my tryout day and trying to find a moment to like ask this woman, Chris, what's it, how is it here? And she was working like so hard. I mean, I could just, you know, she never stopped moving. And she said like, you seem like a really nice person and like totally together. Don't take this job.

Like this is this place is insane. And of course, like I interpreted that as like, challenge. I should take this job. But when I became kitchen manager, it really, I was in charge of staffing. So I did all the recruiting. And there was a lot of turnover in a place like that where you work 14 or 16 hour days, six days a week. So I had the opportunity to hire people. And I just had decided I'm going to hire as many women as possible because I knew it made it better for me that there was another woman there.

and I thought that if you kind of shift the, the ratio, that it would just change the dynamic. And it 100% did because we were, you know, it was, yeah, it was all that. It was gross. It was like, just like comments or? Comments, um, you know, a lot of comments, a lot of dirty jokes, a lot of, not like actually getting like slapped on the ass, but there was just like, um, it was like there was just like sexual talk all the time the sous chef was like you know looking at porn on breaks

you know there was just like gross vibes and then we also did we had an open like locker area that was just like an area between point A and point B that you were expected to change that you're expected to change and if you didn't want to change there you would have to go into the one staff bathroom and change to the bathroom. It was the kind of thing where you're like, I'm going to call so much more attention to myself. But then at the same time, when I look back at it, I was like, we were like stripping down to our underwear and bra in front of all of our, like, that's not, and there was really no one there, you know, from the GM level or whatever to be like, this is not, this is not good practice. Do you know what I mean? Um, there was no HR department. There was no like real

way that you erred a grievance. So you just kind of had to get through it. And that was definitely the culture, you know. But about like the Anthony Bourdain sweet bitter, like everybody's out doing drugs and partying in the restaurant world? Is that true as well? I mean, that was definitely something that I saw and was surrounded by. I was a little bit older than the other.

cooks and by older I was like 26, 27, you know, but I was married already and my husband didn't work in the food business. And I think that for me, that kept me grounded a little bit because I wanted to come home when I finished my shift. I didn't want to stay out until five in the morning. And that I think was just me. And my social life was outside of my restaurant co-workers. Whereas I think a lot of people your whole life is the people you work with are also the people you go out with. Especially because the hours I think are so weird that you're like at 2 a.m. Who else are you going to call? And you're kind of wired.

Like I would come home after my shift and usually my husband was already in bed and it takes a couple hours to kind of like work that adrenaline back out. So what would you do? Would you just like lie in? Yeah, I would come home and usually eat something, shower, you know, like you're pretty gross. read, I don't know, did I watch TV? Maybe. I remember definitely coming home, needing to eat something, showering, and then discovering in the shower, like, where all the burns on my body were located.

And you didn't have, like, fomo of, like, oh, all these people are out having this grand old time. No, because they would come back in the morning, like, still drunk. And it didn't seem fun to me. Okay. I was just like, I can't. That's not. How do you even get through that day? I mean, even then, I remember thinking, like, so you work 16.

hours, you partied till 6 a.m. You slept for three hours and then you came back here and like you're kind of still wasted. Yeah. It just seemed un it just didn't seem like that much fun to me. And maybe and I'm lucky that. I mean, maybe I just got lucky, you know? Yeah, for sure. Um, okay, so you're getting sort of this media exposure through Rocco and working with him. Was there a point where you were like, maybe I'll go and edit it. Like you act. were thinking your career could go in that direction? No, I think then I still really wanted, I loved restaurants. So actually, the more work away from restaurants he started doing, the more I missed being

close to food. And that's why I ended up working at Shake Shack because I wanted to work for another big restaurant group. And I wanted to be back in that. I missed having colleagues who were cooking. I miss being close to the kitchen. while I was still at Shake Shack, I started doing sort of moonlighting again in the culinary management program at the Institute for Culinary Education, which was right down the street.

And when I left Shake Shack, it was really because after two years I was like, I'm kind of exhausted. I don't know if I can do this anymore. So I started doing culinary. management and teaching and also consulting on restaurants. So I'd kind of like taken a step back from the day to day. And while I was doing that, a friend of mine reached out because her friend had just become the editor-in-chief of everyday food, which is a Martha Stewart. So I was teaching this culinary management class.

I was consulting on restaurants. And my friend was like, she wants to meet people. And I think she wants to meet people who like don't necessarily. I really have like a hardcore food journalism background. And I was like, well, I'll just go meet with them because at the very least, I'll have like a great story about going through Martha Stewart, HR for my students who were all really interested in food media. And I didn't ever really have a great handle or great advice for them.

So I was like, sure, I'll go on the interview. So I ended up going on this interview to be the deputy editor of everyday food. And after like six months, I got hired. So I never thought I was going to get that job. But I kept going, I would have an interview and then nothing would happen. And then three weeks later, she would like call me again and be like, oh, I'd love to have you come back in for another interview. And I just kept going back like, I don't know where this is going. And I kind of didn't, I didn't have anything super vested in it because I was happy with my other gig.

And were they asking you editorial questions? Like, were they asking you about stories that you would pack it? And like, how did you know the editorial side having not worked different? That's a great question. I think that, yeah, she was asking about story ideas, recipes, cooking at home, like what you would want in a food magazine. And that was a great magazine, too. It was like this awesome little digest size magazine that just had great ideas. And I think a lot of it was just like we got along and had good, you know, she was bouncing ideas off of me. And I was giving feedback. I think she liked it that I had worked in restaurants and had like a real culinary background and had a lot of other people on staff who were more editorially like, you know, that was their whole career. Did you have any sort of like imposter syndrome when you started working there and you were directing

people who'd worked their way up in the editorial world? No, weirdly. The heart of the thing that I was the most worried about was just understanding the computer the the I guess it's an app whatever the computer program yeah that was like in copy where you know the layout and the words were coming together and I had a lot of like am I going to be able to learn how to put the article in the right place and you know style the headlines it was much more like nuts and bolts but no I had a lot of feelings of like writing a headline is a lot like writing a recipe name for a menu how long we're

were you there? And then how did the switch to Bon App come about? I was there for two years. And when I went to Bon Appetit, Adam had become the new editor-in-chief. And I knew that he was hiring and staffing up. I didn't reach out to them, even though my dad might think my dad was like, huge opportunity. You know, this doesn't happen every day. Did you know Adam? I didn't know him, but like I was, you know, reading up on him. And and then he hired Christine Mulkey, who I had like seen her byline forever as a food writer. And I was like, oh, it's going to be like that. Like Christine Malky was like the coolest like, you know, pedigree.

I was just like, oh, I'm not. I think that I had more imposter syndrome about BA. And just being like, oh, they're hiring like really cool people who have been writing about food for really long time. Like they're not looking for me. But then in the end, like I got an email directly from the managing editor who had gotten my name through another friend. and she wanted to meet me.

So again, I went to this interview that I was like, I'm not going to get this job. There's no way. And they ended up calling me back like three times. I did two edit tests. I had multiple interviews. I spent weekends, you know, working on story pitches and headlines. And I had to edit a long form article. I mean, it was a lot.

It was the edit test was real. I did two rounds. and then I got hired to be the futures editor. How do you come up with your ideas for your stories? Like, I'm always curious, especially at a place like Bon Appetit, where you guys are really driving a lot of the trends in the food world and the country. Are you guys finding trends and then reporting on them? Are you literally just creating trends out of nowhere?

It's definitely a combination. And I think working in a magazine that has had and, you know, maintained like really close relationships to so many amazing chefs and covering restaurants and covering restaurants like both through travel but also through chef, you know, profiles and chef stories is like you do sort of see what's happening. And chefs tend to like lead in, you know, what new flavors are happening and different styles of cooking. And like you can see now with chefs like cooking with less meat, you know, changing like the way menus are put together. And if you can see that sort of happening in a bunch

of different places across the country, it's like something's going on here. So ideas will come that way. A lot of ideas come through seasonality. A lot of our ideas at BA, and this is something that Adam is so good at is like everyone who is on staff really is obsessed with food and either as a person who's discovering it or cooking it or both. And he has always encouraged us to like write about the thing that we're interested in and psyched for. So some of it just comes from like, I'm doing this thing. I think it's awesome. And I want to like write about it.

Which is how we ended up doing like a bean story, which was not my pitch. Somebody was just like very interested. So it was like beans. Like literally the pitch was like beans. Beans are amazing. And we like, and then from there, it's like, okay, like, what are you talking about? Like the world of dried beans. There's heirloom beans, like the different ways to use beans in other meals, the way the beans are a meal, like beans and cassalais, a pot of beans, you know, refried beans.

And then it's like, oh, there's a lot here and we can really like do something fun with us, you know? But it's coming from a place of someone really, like, loves beans and wants to talk about. it. Do you ever get nervous? Like, I watched the making perfect for Thanksgiving and you guys pulled out all the back issues of Thanksgiving for Bon Appetit. And I feel like if I looked at all of those, I'd be like, well, everything that there is to say about Thanksgiving has been said. 100%. Like at some point, do you get nervous? You'll just be iterating for the sake of iterating rather than to improve anything. That is definitely a concern, especially around something like Thanksgiving, which is such a set menu. Yeah. there's not a lot of room to be like, you know what, let's not do a turkey this year. Like, we can't do that. But then that's also where the challenge can come to.

Yeah, because, you know, we joke about it. We're like the best mashed potato recipe, the most luxurious mashed mashed mashed potatoes, the easiest mashed mashed mashed mashed potatoes. The easiest. Like there's always a new adjective. It's like, really, though, I've had years where I'm like, no, actually the ones that we did. two years ago are the best. Like, now what are we supposed to do? But you still have to do something new.

Yeah, you do. And that's where I think collaboration and having all these other people to bounce ideas off of and and argue with or, you know, like debate and come up with something. I mean, the mashed potato recipe that we did this year for making. Yeah. Really came from like, we love mashed potatoes, but we also love crunchy. Oh, I feel like you. guys did not love mashed potatoes. I feel like you were trying to sway people in the direction

of crispy potatoes. We were. Nobody was going your way. I was like, look, I don't have anything against mashed potatoes, but like, does it have to be mashed potatoes? We've done mashed potatoes every year for a thousand years. Yeah. And so at the beginning, we were like, we want to not do mashed potatoes, but we were not, like, literally people wouldn't let us. So people on the street, but also people in the building were like, that's, you guys are both insane. Like, it has to be mashed potatoes. And so then we were still like, but how can we retain? We really do believe that like some texture or some crunch is going to change this and possibly make it better or at least more fun or different and not worse, you know? Yeah. And I think we came up with something that we were

like, we were pretty psych. I mean, I served them at my Thanksgiving this year. So do you worry outside of big holidays? Like my biggest fear is that one day I'll sit down to pitch stories and I will not have any more. Like, it'll just be over. Do you struggle with that? Yeah, that's a really scary feeling with writing a second book. Um, because I felt like I gave so much of what I was passionate about in where cooking begins and things I had thought about for so long. It's the second album thing. Yeah. You put 14 years of your life into your first album and then you make your second album in two years. Exactly. And I've sat down to work on ideas and have literally written down exact recipes that are already in the first book.

And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, wait, I feel like that is familiar for something. And I'm like, yeah, you already, you did it already. You know, that is a good idea. And it was so good that you put it in your first book. So it's been, you know, just a very different kind of process and finding time to ask these questions. Like, what does inspire me and what gets me excited and what do I crave?

and like, what do I actually want to cook, you know? Because the first book was more about all of the recipes that I make all the time and capturing them. And the second book is like, 100 new ones, you know? And it's not like I have them in my back pocket. Like, so it's, it's hard. There was definitely like writers block and there was definitely like ideas block. How do you break through that? It's rough.

I have a weird process. but some of it was just spent like staring into space. Some of it, I found actually a lot of inspiration and going back to my really old cookbooks, like the ones that I read when I was a lion cook. And so it's not like I'm finding the exact dish there, but just seeing combinations of ingredients or a lot of those old cookbooks don't have images in them. Yeah. And so you really have to like kind of read what is being just.

described and visualize it. And that I think like got the wheels turning a little bit. Even weird things like, you know, going through a bunch of cookbooks and being like cream. Like all of these cooks were like cooking with cream. Yeah. You know what I mean? And how like that's an ingredient that I really have in rotation unless I'm making whipped cream for a dessert.

Right. And like thinking about that. Not necessarily does that mean that I'm going to have a bunch of recipes with cream, but just like thinking about ingredients in a different way. And like what does that bring to a dish? And are we missing that component now? Yeah. That's interesting.

You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. I get asked so often about what protein powders I use in my daily green smoothies. And in truth, there are only a few things that I use regularly, including hold hemp parts, which you can find at most grocery stores, and a super high quality grass-fed collagen. One serving of collagen has 18 grams of protein, which, when added to my green smoothies with some healthy fat like avocado, is super critical in keeping me full through lunchtime. You really want to buy collagen from brands that you trust to ensure you're getting high-quality product that comes from fully grass-fed cows and doesn't have any heavy metals. And far and away, my favorite brand is Garden of Life.

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All right, let's get back to the episode. What's the difference between Carla Lally Music recipe for a book versus for Bona? That's a great question too. Sometimes there's overlap. But I think when I'm developing for BA, it's a very clear articulation of like a need or a slot that we need to fill because that's how we look at lineups is like the print lineup has a certain number of pages, a certain number of stories, their seasonality. And things like need to fit together. They can't repeat with other things that are in the issue that month.

So you end up with this kind of like very specific, you know, hole to fill. When I'm developing, and digitally that can happen too, because we have like five recipes a month that we're going to do on BA, healthy-ish, and basically. And so like, what's the right mix? You know what I mean? Like you want two dinners. People love it when we have a dessert. Let's get a seasonal thing in, you know, and like what time of year is it?

should there be a holiday cocktail? Like you just end up with kind of like very specific slots to fill. And then when I'm developing for a cookbook, I just have, it's like this very broad, that I think was what was so intimidating about book two was like at the beginning, I had my idea that I was going to divide the week up between week night and weekend.

But within those categories, it was like wide open. And yeah, so it's much more like digging into what my own preferences and style of cooking are, like, what pleases me, you know? Whereas if you're doing something for BA, it's like, people love carrots, you know, we got to have a carrot dish. And like for my own book, I'm like, I don't really, like, I put carrots in my sofrito, but like. I don't eat a ton of carrots. Right. So maybe there's like not going to be a carrot recipe.

Are there foods that like you guys have in your minds at BA that like people love these foods and we should keep coming back to them? Yeah. I mean there are certain things that like always do well. Like what? Pasta. Any type of pasta. Pastas are big.

Yeah. Pasta, Italian food obviously Mexican. like people, those recipes tend to do well. I think we're pushing ourselves a lot more to get outside of recipes are good because they've been going to in the past and think about like how many things haven't, have we not done that are also incredible and just like deserving of this platform, you know? and we use our BA's best category, which is like there's a bunch of recipes under that rubric.

Those are weirdly, like we'll find that we haven't done very obvious things. And that's when we'll be like, this should be a BA's best because it's like, it's not a riff on a thing. It's just like the thing. The best version of that thing. I just developed a Tostone's recipe, which is going to be out in January. And I was like, I love Tostone's. so much. And like, we didn't have, you know, there was one from like, the way you can tell now is

like the when the search result comes up on the site, the image is like pixelated, you know, because it's so old. Yeah. Or the image is like this crazy, like some of them are just these crazy crops because they got put into a new template, but they didn't get resized. So we didn't have a Tostone's recipe. I'm just like, This is one of the world's great foods. Like, how have we not done this? You know? And then you feel like, well, I need to do it kind of right.

You know what I mean? And then that will also kick off another wave of research and looking at a lot of cookbooks and previously published versions. Do you ever come across one, a recipe, though, where you're like, this is a perfect tostone's recipe? What, like, this, I found it. It's here. I mean, Tostonez is a good example because all of the ingredients. are the same. It's green plantains, frying oil, and salt. Right.

That's literally it. So then what are you? Yeah. So what are you doing? You're talking about a yield, right? A quantity. A method for the best way to flatten the Tostones. Talking about like really explaining to someone who's maybe never picked up a green plantain before what they're looking for, how to get the skin off, you know, how to peel them, how thick to cut. them, what temperature of the oil should be, like little fluctuations in there provide opportunities

to like, how can I make this more foolproof? Or, you know, if you cut them too thin, they're just, they get really crispy, but they're kind of like, they're very dry and starchy. So you don't, you know, that was what I went through when I was developing. I was like, quarter inch, half an inch, you know, two minutes. If you, I did learn because I got interrupted in the middle of recipe development one day that if you let them cool down after the first fry, they're so hard to smash. And I was like using a meat mallet. It's like they turn into like concrete. Um, so like that's a thing. Yeah. Like don't, you know, there's a pause there where you do the first fry, then you smash and you do your second fry. You to be able to tell people,

if you're doing these for a party, you can pause in between the first fry and the second fry, but you have to smash them right when they get out of the, So like solving every problem that somebody might run into on me. Totally. And then deciding like what we wanted, we wanted that little bit of fluffiness in the center. So we didn't want to cut them too thin. Stuff like that. So now your job is like evolved even more as you've sort of become a TV star. What is that light? Like you're, you're famous. Like you probably get recognized now on the street, right? Sometimes. Yeah. Which wasn't, I assume the case when you were. No, I had a byline and I was. on the masthead for like yeah for years and years and years no one ever recognized me in my life like it might be like you could get a restaurant reservation but not no shop in the grocery store so what's that like um i think it's still like surprising and flattering every single time it happens even though it happens regularly now and i think i think for a lot of people it's one of those things where it's like you guys came out of nowhere and i'm like actually we've been making videos for

like three years, you know? And there was this like very slow build to kind of doing it on a shoestring at the beginning and trying a bunch of stuff out. And like, was it going to be hands and pans? Was it going to be like host and personality driven? You know, how what is how long are the videos? When do we shoot the videos? Like, you know, a lot of stuff that you are working out in that first like year, year and a half. And then as a strategy, like the business has to get behind it and the brand has to get behind it's like, yeah, as an investment and like, oh, we're going to do this. And then at a certain point, you have a volume and it's working.

And then like something is happening with the way YouTube works that is like, you know, beyond my pay grade. But that has its own kind of mechanics and. what makes a video go viral, what makes a bunch of videos go viral. You know, the- Did you guys have a tipping point video if you were like slow-billed? Yeah, definitely. And that was probably about a year ago.

What was it? I don't know what caused it. It was just like at a certain- Would you know what video was? Oh, no. I mean, I think that it's alive and gourmet makes like together drove a ton of engagement with our channel, just like people finding those videos. and through, you know, Brad as the gateway drug discovering, like, oh, I'm like super into Brad,

but now I'm in the BA page. And I didn't realize it. There's all this other stuff here. So now, like, I'm watching hosted videos or, like, maybe you came because you watched a gourmet makes and you fell in love with Brad. And then you discovered, you know, Molly's series. Right. Like, you create, you know, you, when you have that get to a place of, like, volume, there's just more. to discover.

And did you, when you guys were talking about, should we do hands and pans or personalities? Did you, like, look around the test kitchen? You're like, these people are funny. We should do personalities. It was a little bit of both. Like, I think we did do hands and pans. And like at that time, it was like Facebook video was the big push. Right.

And people didn't want sound because on the Facebook videos. Because everybody is watching it silently. Exactly. So we did a bunch of hands and hands. But then the personality stuff was like clicking, you know. And I think we do have the benefit of having this test kitchen where these people actually come to work every day and have these conversations together, have these conversations together, work together, talk about bounce ideas off of each other, problem solved together. Yeah, it's like part of reality show. Yeah.

And that was a thing that we, you know, because we're not off in a studio like one at a time shooting a video, we, that was always a part of it. like are the interaction of that space, the busy, like there's always something going on in the background. And that wasn't like some creative decision. That was like, we have to keep working. How does it fit in though? Like, you are adding this. We're shooting a video today. The only way that we can like shoot video and get the rest of our work done is to do them at the same time. So we had to figure out like how to shoot video and have food editors show up and develop recipes at the same time. So almost. always when you're shooting a video, is that a recipe that's for the magazine or like they're shooting

the words they would be doing anyways? Well, like there's what's going on in the background and then it's what the host is maybe doing a demonstration of. Yeah. So, you know, most of the, a lot of the recipes that we develop, ultimately, you'll end up doing a video for those. But if Chris is doing a video for his gluten-free carrot cake, I'm just making something up, in the background, what's happening is like Sol is developing something for healthy-ish and Molly's developing something for basically. They have nothing to do with what Chris is doing. Right. It's just what their work is that day.

But did you have to cut down on everybody's other work to like make time for them to do, to become YouTube stars on top of everything? That's like a, that's a, I mean, that's just like one of the challenges of doing all this stuff. Yeah, it just feels like it's a whole, it's a whole job unto itself to be these people. Yeah, we went, including you. Yeah, it just went from like not having to carve out time in your week for video to like having to carve out a lot of time. So it's like also been a gradual shift and like figuring out how to do that. You know, one of the things that has happened is that we have like pretty incredible video department that has a culinary food director who makes it really easy for us.

Like in the old in the first videos like if I was doing a steak video like I had to buy the steak. and make sure how to swap and prep it and like come in and get set up. And now they do that all. And now they do that all. So you can really walk in and do a hosted video and into hours, start to finish, which is, you know, two meetings. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Yeah. It's not like a huge left. It ends up being like much more doable because we have resources. We have like incredible production. When you hire people. now are you thinking about what they'll be like on camera a little bit yeah it's like because it's it's a different role than a food editor yeah yeah and you don't have to be on camera but do you have a lot of people who aren't who we're not seeing because I feel like these days pretty much everybody yeah

even like our social media managers are in the videos there yeah you're just like or I just watch the one with soul and she's like the fresh new face yeah soul is amazing and when she got hired I think we were hoping like it's certainly like there's operations like there's here if you're up if you're into it yeah but you don't have to if you're not and I think she's so great her personality is so great I that last video is like just dying a lot of people wanted to know if the people in the bon up test kitchen are like actually as cool as they seem and if you guys are all actually besties or if there are any sort of behind the scenes things yeah unfortunately um everyone is awesome and we are generally

really love working together, which is like very annoying. It is annoying. And people also ask me all the time, like, how can I get a job and then be a test? I got that question a lot too. You probably can't, you know? There's only so many jobs and there's very low turnover because like people love it. Yeah, people are pretty happy working there. You know, we've been really, really lucky.

And which is interesting because you are also like. building people's like if you start working the BA Test Kitchen you're going to have hundreds of thousand of Instagram followers and that is often what causes people to leave and do their own thing. Right. That's a good point. I mean, had that happen that much. No, and I think it's a combination of people really being happy and I mean, at least for me, I kept finding new challenges. Like I haven't had to leave BA because my job has changed so much over the years that I've been there. I've been with Bon Appetit for eight years. And I kept. And I kept. kind of growing into a new job or having like a whole new set of responsibilities.

So I don't have to leave to go find that that challenge. Well, and you're able to do stuff like your cookbook without leaving. And I think that's really like huge. And then I think at the same time, look around like as far as food magazines go, there's been a ton of change and like fewer opportunities. Yeah, there's not a lot of bon appetit. Yeah, I think like five years. ago, six years ago, you could be like moving between real simple, saver, gourmet, food and wine,

Bon Appetit, and, you know, Rachel Ray. And there's just, the world of publishing has changed a ton. And we have been, I think, very fortunate. And I'm, like, grateful that our brand has, like, done really well with every digital shift and then shifting to video and still having a print magazine that people are excited about. You know, it's hard. It's like hard to recreate that. So then it's like, well, what do you want to do? Do you want to be like a YouTube creator?

Well, I think that that would be what I'd wonder if people wanted to go off and like be their own brand because that's such an instinct. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. But at the same time, one of the things that we all have going for us is like we get to do video, but it's not the only thing we do. Right. And that is, I wouldn't want to only do it.

I love doing video. But I also love doing podcasts. and I love writing and I love creating recipes and reporting stories. So, like, I don't know if I would want to just do one thing. So you said it's pretty hard, if not impossible, to get a job in the VA test kitchen. But if somebody wanted to have a career in food media these days, obviously you had a pretty unique path. Is there steps you would recommend that people take?

Yeah, I get this question a lot. And I think it's a tough one for the reasons that I just said. Like there's fewer, in a way there's like fewer outlets in the tradition in traditional media. There's fewer outlets. In new media, which is like a dated phrase, but in digital media, I think there is a lot of opportunity and potential for growth, but you might have to start with doing your own thing. So what I tell people most of the time is like if you really want to be in food, I think you need to do the thing that you want to do,

but you might have to get paid to be doing a different job. So if you want to write about food, like write about food, write those stories, create them, publish them however you can. You might not get paid for it for like a long time. I mean, it sucks to say. Like do it as a side hustle?

Yeah. Is there, do people, do you guys take pitches out from outside writers? And is there anything you specifically, look for in a pitch that would get you really excited? I think like every vertical has its own perspective. And I think that, you know, like healthyish publishes a lot of essays. We also publish recipes there, but also a lot of essays that I would, you know, just get to know like the kind of work that shows up and think about what ties them together. If it's like a, you know,

a personal growth story or if it's like some kind of a journey. Sometimes people come through the kitchen and just have pitches for recipes that sound amazing and we haven't done. And like that could be enough, you know? What about features like pitching sort of outside reported articles? Yeah, I don't assign those anymore. I'm just going to take a full pass on that. Okay.

All right. Speaking of healthy and healthy-ish, this is a wellness podcast. And I'm curious what sort of role you write for healthy-ish. What does wellness mean to you? Like, are you, do you follow certain food guidelines? Do you do stuff in your life that's healthy? Yeah. Burning clean.

Burning clean. We love burning clean. I think for me, like, you know, physical health is, I exercise a lot. I don't necessarily exercise for weight loss, but I do it because it, I know it makes me feel better. And I, you know, believe in like wanting to get old and wanting to do as much for your body right now so that when you're old, your body will thank you, you know. And sort of taking advantage of the fact that like I am healthy and I am able-bodied and kind of like maximizing on that, you know. What do you do? I do a lot of strength training and weightlifting.

Cool. Yeah. And then I just started getting into that. It affects my mood positively more than anything I've ever done. It feels like you're taking a shot of serotonin. I totally agree. Yeah. I really like just like feeling strong.

Yeah. Some, you know, people who know me will like L.O.L. at that. And I think like when I'm consistent, even though, listen, And every single time I go to the gym, it is like a struggle until the second I'm out the door. Yeah. But then you feel so good. And that's like you can just tell yourself the entire time you're there.

Like I, this sucks now. Once I'm there, I'm good to go. Yeah. Everything leading up to it is like, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. I don't like I'm walking down the street going like, I don't want to go. Like I just wish that I could somehow internalize the feeling of what it feels like after and bring a little of that into the before.

But I haven't like last night I was like don't want to go. You know, woke up this morning. I'm like, oh, I have to go. Do you do it in the morning? Yeah, generally. Because like the day just. So I don't let myself look at my phone until after I've worked out. Oh, wow.

And that's been 100 because I want to look at my phone. I'm like every day I'm like, I'm going to wake up to an email that's going to change my life. And it never happens. But I still think it's going to happen. And I find that if I can wait until after I work out, it motivates me so much more. See, my main motivation is like that I get to eat more. That works too. Yeah.

All right. So we work out. And the coffee. Like I have tea before and I have coffee after. Yeah, I think. But that's the same sort of like dangling some maybe not a carrot for you since you're not that into them, but some sort of delicious thing after that you can aspire. There is a carrot recipe in the new book, which I'm like.

You're like, I don't hate carrots, guys. I made a carrot dish. I was like, huh, actually pretty good. What's the secret to making carrots good in your eyes? Charizo, as it turned out. All right. Okay, so how does, how else does what? I know you did a Pontiac karma, which I thought was really interesting.

You mentioned that in your cookbook. Yeah. Why'd you do one? So I used to do Ashtanga yoga for like 10 years. And while I was still practicing Ashtanga, there were workshops that would roll through the studio and one of them was um was a pancha karma like kind of half day me was a full day kind of exploration with iervatic like learnings and dietary stuff and like why you do it and um that was the first time i did it i also had at around that time was having like really bad stomach

problems and like a couple doctors said i had iBS but like i didn't have all the symptoms for IBS. I was just like not right. Like something was just not right. And I did pancha karma and that was actually the only thing that helped. And so that's why that recipe. And a pancha karma just for people who don't know, it's like an Ayurvedic cleanse. It involves things you eat, which is the kitchen you have in your book.

But also there's enemas and I don't know how deep into when oil dripping on your face. Right. I didn't do the enema. What they did at the end of it was you on the last night go to bed with like a warm towel that's been soaked in castor oil. But you just put that on your stomach with like a heating pad. And, you know, some, some absorbs, you know, into your whatever. And so that was like the last day of the cleanse. And it's four, did you do four days?

Four days. And then and then it became a thing that it was just like a really nice thing to do with. the seasonal shift, which they talked about, the Ayurvedic guy, was like, it's a nice thing to do when, you know, summer turns to fall and winter turns to spring as like a good reset. To go away and do Panchama or just to do like a mini one. Yeah, do that four or five days in where you change your own eating. The other thing I liked about an Ayurvatic cleanse is that you eat the whole time. Yeah.

And pretty hard. You don't feel like you're starving. It's not like a juice cleanse. digestive cleanse. It's like more of a cellular and it is digestive and like you're eating warm foods, like all cooked foods, like very easy to digest foods. And I felt that that also was like mentally very calming. Like I liked that you knew exactly what you were going to eat every day. Because it just quieted down that whole part of my brain that's like, what am I going to eat? Which I'm sure for you is like constant.

Constantine. Yes. Very noisy. Did it solve your gut issues? It did. Like long term? I did. At one point I did Kuchery for dinner for like almost a month and I really tried to follow the other. I wasn't as strict about it, but like I wasn't drinking and I was trying only to eat cooked foods, no raw. And I did that for almost a month.

And then I was like cured, you know. Including to this. Because I feel like your life must be how I feel when I go to like. Like one of those food festivals where you eat a million small place. Totally. And then you feel like very deliciously satisfied. But you're also like I feel a little ill because I've eaten 400 different things today. Yeah, a couple.

I guess it was like a year and a half ago now also in the summer, which is because of the print cycle. The summer is when we're developing all the holiday issues. So it's like really hot out. It's like the peak of summer produce. It's like you want to eat really light and really fresh and juicy. and you're literally eating, yeah, mashed potatoes and like roasts and like potato gratin. Yeah. And I had done this for so many years.

And I finally was just like, I can't, I cannot do this to myself anymore because it had really ruined. We had afternoon tastings. Like our tastings were at three pretty much every day. And I had like really messed up my relationship to food and eating because I would almost fast all day. to get to the 3 p.m. tasting because I knew that some days it could be like 10 different things, you know. And so then I was fasting and basically then gorgeing. And then I would feel sick to my stomach and then come home at 7 and never want to talk or look at food again. So I was on, I had a very bizarre. And I wasn't eating what I wanted to eat. And like some days it worked out. And you'd be like, ooh, this is exactly what I want to eat right now.

But the norm was like, I don't really want to eat this like cake. Yeah. You know what I mean? I haven't had lunch. So I took it as an opportunity to kind of like change some of the mechanics of how the tastings ran in the kitchen. So instead of me coming to every single tasting, there were like the editor and the food editor working on a story would bring in a third person to like be a triangle. So it's not just like one, two people. And we just made the groups of people tasting much smaller.

So it was like the feedback was concise and there could be a real conversation. And I kind of took myself out of the tastings, which I think also made it. It was for me like a little bit selfishly motivated, but it also had the benefit of, you know, when I'm there, sometimes people would not speak up or or, you know, to, you know, yeah, defer to me. And I kind of was like, no, I really want to know what you think. And it's kind of like, oh, but the dynamic here is like, makes that hard. So that was really good because, you know, then other people were making and we're like making the final call on stuff. And so it was good for me.

And I think it was like good in general, like for the flow. How do you do the reverse of that? Like when you're doing summer and summer produce doesn't exist in the winter. Do you guys go to Mexico? We developed sometimes a year ahead. So this summer, we shot several stories that won't come out until next year. Summer's the hardest spring and summer the hardest to fake. Yeah, you need the fresh produce that only exist in that time.

Yeah, you just can't fake that tomato. Yeah. And you also can't fake that light. Interesting. So you're like in spring and summer, you're developing fall, winter, spring, and summer. Yeah. So this spring. So fall winter are like nice months then for you.

Yeah, we do get a little bit. Like a little bit of air. Or you're at least developing like four, because like winter goes on for six months. So in the fall. New York City. In the fall we're developing for like March, you know, February and March. And it's like, right. Same stuff.

You know, hearty greens, root vegetables, low and slow. Yeah. Oven. oven times. You're listening to the healthier together podcast. You all know that I am fully obsessed with tea. I probably drink honestly like 12. cups of herbal tea a day. Because of my anxiety, I don't actually consume any caffeine. I've actually

found that that caffeine type stimulation and jitters can lead me to have panic attacks, which is one of the many, many reasons why I love Pucka so much. Pucka is a tea company that I became addicted to years ago when Zach and I were living in England and they have so many herbal teas, including tons of medicinal herbs that you really can't find anywhere else. They have so many kinds, so I definitely encourage you to go to pukkaherbs.us to check them all out. But a few of my favorites are the relax, which has a marshmallow root, fennel, and camamile blend. And it helps with digestion or just general stress relief. I love to drink it to just unwind and sink into my couch. And then the after dinner tea, which I drink whenever I feel too full, which is often because I like my snacks. And then the

Tulsi Clarity, which has holy basil, which is really cool. It's actually an adaptogen that adjust to give your body whatever it needs, whether it's more energy or more focus or more zen. I love sipping on the herbal tea all day is a way to stay hydrated without drinking a ton of caffeine or getting ward by water, and I also really love reaping the benefits of all of the functional herbs. It's such an easy, impactful thing to do to totally improve your health. I know a lot of you are worried about plastic and tea bags after all of those news stories a while back, and I'm happy to report that the Pucka bags are fully plastic-free and are stitched together with 100% organic non-GMO cotton, no weird glues or anything.

100% of their ingredients are organic, and Pucka actually sources really consciously as well. They're certified Fair for Life, which is the highest standard of fair trade, which means the farmers they source from are being treated well and paid super fairly. You can go to pukaherbs.us. Check out all of Pucka's amazing tea blends. They have caffeinated ones too, including a green tea and cardamom revitalized blend that Zach is totally obsessed with. And if you have any questions or just want to chat about tea, I love chatting about tea.

Hit me up on Instagram at Liz Moody. I could honestly talk about tea until the end of time. Now, let's get back to the episode. Have you had any other sort of health things that you've struggled with and overcome in anyway? The only other thing I had is that I had a really stubborn old injury from restaurant work that I had a lot of like sciatic pain. I had this like one really stubborn just like pain in my back that I had for years and years. in years and had had like PT several times. I had steroid injections. I had like, you know, try this kind of exercise, know this kind of exercise. And it was the same. It kind of comes back to like

when I started lifting weights. I was worried like I have this old injury. It's, you know, flares up. It can be really bad. And when I started lifting weights, like it went away. You know, I was worried about aggravating it through. But it went away. It went away. Because you were strengthening the muscles around it. I don't know. I think, you know, maybe. But whatever it was, like when I started doing that, I didn't have that back pain anymore. So that is a weird motivator in a way.

I'm like, when I work out, I don't have that pain. Yeah, that's a great motivator. And when I stop, I like right away, we'll feel it again. Yeah. So that has been good because, like, there's only. so many MRIs you want to have to have them be like, yep, we did another MRI, we still can't figure it out. And I'm like, but I'm in pain. And they're like, you're a tough case. And I'm like, you're a tough case. What about mental health with just like the stress of your job and you're also,

I mean, I really hate the iteration of this question. But you have a lot on your plate. I don't want to say like, you're a working mom. Right. But you have a lot on your plate. And there's also, I imagine, a stress of you're dictating how the country eats in a lot of ways it's a very interesting position to be in so how do you deal with that yeah i can't say that i don't have like anxiety or worry or you know there's definitely like just a lot of self-doubt especially in you know creative field where you're like what has everything has been done you know and like what what is what am i gonna what's the point Um, kind of. Uh, yeah, that's something that like is, is definitely there.

Um, trying to think. Like, how do I deal with your existential and we? Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. There's something about like trying to tell yourself the thing that you would tell somebody else if they called you and said that they were feeling this way, you know, and I have a couple of girls. And we do call each other when we have a couple of girlfriends. No, I have a couple of girlfriends who I have this kind of relationship with where we can call each other and say like, here's like the real deal. Like I feel like, you know, I'm out of sorts or I am comparing myself to other people who are more successful than I am or younger than I am or like I can't come up with a good idea

because every idea has already been done and we'll kind of talk each other through it. And I could be on either end of that phone call. Like that could be what I'm saying to somebody else or what they're saying to me. And sometimes you just have to like think about what you would tell yourself if you were your own friend, you know, and give yourself the advice that like you would 100% in all honesty and in support like give to one of your best friends, you know. So trying to have, trying to have that or like keep that good internal dialogue. And when your own internal dialogue falls apart, like having a few people that you can talk to about that. My husband is like a huge supporter of the work that I do in my career and has been like

an incredible cheerleader for me. He also works in branding and marketing. So like he has that kind of brain where he's like, here's how we're going to position this, you know? So that's obviously really helpful. And then, you know, sometimes like being able to distract yourself in a way with other things that are more important like your family or whatever it is. Like that can go, I think that can cut both ways. But having, you know, kids who can help you put perspective on stuff.

Like the things that we freak out about at work or in life or interpersonal stuff. or office politics. Like kids don't think about that stuff and they do not care and like trying to, you know, channel a little bit of that sometimes too. Do you get jealous? Do you mention jealousies? And I just, I'm like, I don't know. I feel like if you're one of the people that I tell myself, if I could be her,

then I wouldn't be jealous of anybody. You know what I mean? And it's, I just, it's interesting to think of people in that position also experiencing that same thing. Yeah, for sure. Like, you know, yeah, definitely. I mean, especially what. Once I had a book, it's like this very measurable thing.

You know what I mean? Were you happy with how your book came out? I was really happy. Yeah. I really love. It's the kind of thing that, you know, you work on it for so long that if you don't love it, love it. By the time it comes out, you're going to be like, I never want to see this thing again.

So to get to a place where when I got my first copy and I was like, oh, my God, here it is, you know, and then I opened that first, like, author shipment. And I was like, yep, it looks exactly the way it's supposed to. Were you happy with, like, how it came out into the world, though? Yeah. Because I always think there's like, you know, the New York Times bestseller list and numbers and is it in every store I wanted to be in and is getting all the coverage. And I think it adds this whole other layer to like, yeah, I've created something really proud of, but now there's all these other. Yeah, totally. For sure, you could, yeah, it could have been, um, I don't No, the life of a book is so different than the magazine.

And that's really what I had to compare it to. And what's amazing is that I'm six or eight months now post publication. And the book is still on like the table in the bookstore when you go in. Like eight months post publication of a bon appetit is like, I don't even remember what we put in that issue. You know what I mean? And your book like has this like life. And there's waves. There's waves.

And also I had a spring book. So that was really nice to see. how it evolved through the summer and what people started to cook once like berries were out. And then I was like, it went from like the soup and the pasta faciejoli in the in the winter when it first came out. And then like people were making the glets. And like, you know, now they're doing the Romanesco. And like that's really fun to like watch that evolution. Like was I number one on the best seller list? Like no, but you know, Samin's book is three years post publication. And she just got number one on the bestseller list.

So, you know, anything can happen. Yeah, it's crazy. And it's funny because at this point, I'm like, does that even matter for something? Because she's such a incredible. I think it matters for book sales. It's like amazing. I don't know. The month that my book came out was when everybody was going crazy about celery juice.

So like every time I went on Amazon, I was like, and my book was doing great on Amazon. You know, it was like, even in the all books. category. Like I was up there. And this fucking celery juice book, like every time I went on Amazon, I was like, I was like, what even is this celery juice book? And he's like trouncing me. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's funny because that's actually like my, so this is my last question for you. And then I have a few reader questions and the questions I ask everybody. But you do, you write for Healthyish. It's one of the properties of Bonavit. And Healthyish does cover these wellness trends. So what do you? you think of like celery juice and charcoal and sort of the different trendy adaptogens,

the different trendy elements of wellness? Yeah, I have different. It depends on what it is. I feel like celery juice is like one of those things that you're like, yes. I don't, what is this? I'm actually like not. I'm very down on CBD in general because I think of some, a lot of the CBD stuff out there is just like a freaking hoax about like it's not,

it's not at a level that's actually. therapeutic in the can of seltzer or the chocolate bar. It's like, that's just highway robbery. There's also no, that's not the best way to take it. The best way to take it is under your tongue

into your bloodstream. And so the idea of not only you're taking some of it's very dilute, you're putting it into your digestive tract, which is the best way to make anything more dilute. Right. Is, yeah. So that whole like CBD and everything just really started to drive me up the wall.

You know, because I know there is like, a actual therapeutic benefit. Have you tried it? Not like a soda, but like a tincture? No, I don't. I haven't. I don't think I have it.

I think I'd one time did like a, like a patch for a stiff shoulder. Maybe it helped. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Are there any trends that you've like worked into your life that you're like, this is pretty legit?

Some supplements, like I take Ashwang, Ashwaganda every day. I take an omega-6 every day. I take probiotics every day. Do you take aschwaganda for stress? Yeah, for stress, definitely. And yeah, nervous system. I think it depends on the trend, you know?

Like my friend Christine, Christine Malky, who's now a friend, she wrote in her newsletter about like having an acupressure mat to like. down on. And I was like, ooh, I could get behind that. But I think a lot of the, you know, at the end of the day, I just believe in like moderation and sticking with it. I did sober September, which is like, I don't know. Now there's like every month you could be doing dry. And I did it really because I just needed a break. I had been like the summer was crazy. Then I went to Feast Portland. I drank every day. And I was kind of like, I am just like, don't want to drink anymore. And I didn't. drink for a month, which I've tried to do a couple times for dryuary and didn't work.

But this time, for whatever reason, I was like, I'm so happy I'm doing this and making it like a thing, you know, and was able to stick with it. Did you have any takeaways from it that like affected how you drink later? Sleeping. Like sleeping was huge. Like you slept really well. So much better. Really? Yeah.

It was really, that was like the biggest thing, I think, was that I was sleeping more and the quality of sleep was way. better. Yeah, you think that like a glass of wine or two wouldn't make that big, but it really does. I think one is probably fine, but it's hard to do. So it's like usually two. Um, so I would do that again as far as like a fad or a trend. I don't know. I think it depends. And I think that some of the writing that we do the coverage and healthy issues about like awareness of a trend without having to embrace the trend, you know. And then some of it for me is like, what is the old school, you know, most of the knowledge that we have that kicks up into a trend is like information that we had before. Do you know what I mean? Like intermittent fasting, like everybody was talking about

intermittent and fasting. And I was like, sure, because probably the benefit at the end of the day is like it's a caloric deficit. So if you don't eat an entire day of the week, you will consume fewer calories over the course of that week. And ultimately, like, that's it. Like, do I buy intermittent fasting as, like, a metabolic booster? Like, not really. I don't think I do, you know?

Yeah. Um, yeah. All right. This is one of my reader questions. People wanted to know what you do for your gorgeous curly hair. Oh, yeah. I get a lot of curl questions. It's really,

I'm sorry, this is going to be a very disappointing answer because I don't, I don't really put any product in my hair. So a little, sometimes I do, I have a couple like, whatever, like a couple little bombs or curl definers,

but I use them probably twice a month. So my rules for curly hair are don't wash your hair very often. How often is not very often? Like twice a week at the most. Okay. Never turban your hair upside down. I learned that from my haircut. or Holly Smith, who's amazing.

She was like, why would you, that's the opposite of how the hair comes out of your head and the way that your follicle wants to go. Your hair at the back of your neck is not trying to go straight up in the air. That's interesting. So like that. Do you just squeeze it with a towel? Blodding with one of those high absorbency. They're not Terry.

They're like, yeah, whatever those are. So blotting. and then you cannot touch your hair when it is in the transition from wet to like damp, almost dry. Yeah, that's the hardest. That's why I'd never bother to go curly. I'm just like, I'm in blood right straight and just like curls in because I do not have the patience to wait for like two hours when my hair dries. No touching. I can't.

That's the biggest. Especially in New York. I know. I leave the house with wet hair like every single day. Yeah, I couldn't do that. But yeah, that's really it. What do you use for shampoo and conditioner? I bounce around.

I'm always like a different. I don't love the curly hair. Like I don't look for curly hair formulas. I just buy for dry hair because like curly hair just needs moisture. Yeah. And sometimes I do a hair mask, but it's very spotty. What is your go-to meal when you need something lighter but nourishing? So when you're clean?

Yeah. I think it's probably my, the meal that I always take on on the airplane with me, which is steamed sweet potatoes and, like, sauteed kale. But I do it in this way where I like the skillets dry. And I'll have the kale kind of stripped and I'll rinse it. And with some of the water clinging to the kale leaves, I put that into a really hot cast iron pan and cook it until it's wilted and a little bit charred and tender and I season it.

And then I add olive oil at the very end. What does that do? I think it makes it so you're cooking with less olive oil overall. Like if I was starting with olive oil and then putting the kale in, I would use a lot more olive oil. So this is like the heat of the pan and the little bit of water is steaming it and charing it and tenderizing it. And then it's really just olive oil to like coat. because it just makes it less fatty, less heavy. I don't have anything against fat, but that's, I just love.

And you're also preserving a lot of the nutrients of the olive oil by not subjecting it to you. True. That is also true. And then I have that. So I have the steamed sweet potatoes, the kale, and then some Greek yogurt and lemon and like chili flake. That is my like most kind of, yeah, I feel it's super nourishing, really easy to digest, but also very, like, satisfying. Yeah. And then I always feel good when I eat like the orange and the greens together. So like orange food and green food, I just really crave that.

The sweet potatoes. Yeah. And it could be squash and collards. But like I don't know why. I think it's just in the fall. Like the oranges and the greens are like together. Okay. One person says your book talks a lot about cooking what you're inspired to cook.

But what if you have no inspiration or you're feeling inspiration list? Then I would cook something that you like know that you. you love, you know. So if you're not feeling inspired, like, with a new, to come up with a new dish or craving something in particular, eat a thing that you, like, love. You know, for me, it would be some combination of beans and greens or like, you know, grains. To sort of remind you why you love food in the first place.

Yeah. Just eat things that are pleasing to you. And there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that. I also just don't think there's anything wrong with eating kind of the same thing. on repeat. I also love when I'm feeling really uninspired sometimes, I'll take a recipe book and I'll just start at the beginning of it and cook my way through to the end of it because I feel like the lack of inspiration is almost this.

We have too much choice and we're being bombarded by like 40 million recipes we should be making and taking the choice out of it and just being like, this is a recipe I'm making day, this recipe I'm making tomorrow. And I'm exposing myself to new things, but without having to like do that decision. That's cool. Yeah. It's more of a project. Right.

But that's also, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. sense. That's what you do with children who can't make up their mind. You just like take the choice away. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Huh. They can't handle too many choices. Like that's why when I hear parents being like, do you want the red one or the blue one or the green one? I'm like, this doesn't matter. This kid does not care. In a world where like there's so many more choices you're making every single day than 50 years ago, 100 years ago. And I just feel like our brains are already like, oh my God. Yeah, I read a thing about that too that you should do all of your decision making early in the day. because the more decisions you've made, the harder it is to make a decision. So if you have a bunch of decisions to make, like, do them early. Yeah.

Because you're not going to be able to choose later. Like coming back to dinner, no wonder people get overwhelmed by like, what am I having for dinner tonight? So I love that. Okay. I know you have a list of kitchen tools and appliances at the beginning of your book, but somebody says essential for someone living in a small apartment. I'd love to have you narrow it down to like three. essential for a small apartment. I would definitely have a stovetop pressure cooker.

I think they are amazing. And would you go for that over an instant pot? I would because my personal preference is like I'm in it for the pressure cooking and I just don't really care about the slow cooking. Okay. And I can make a good pot of rice without an instant pot. So I just feel like if the thing that you're after is the pressure, then just get the pressure cooker. Also, in a small apartment, an instant pot takes up a ton of counter space because it's electrical. So your pressure cooker just sits where a normal pot would go.

Yeah, instant pot on my living room floor. Right. And I've used the instant pot. There's, you know, I just, yes, I would go with a stovetop for efficiency and for space. I would say a 12-inch cast iron as opposed to a 10. because you can roast in it. And it's just going to give you like more, you can just do more in it.

It doesn't mean you can't do a smaller batch of a thing. Including weightlifting. Like you're tying out. But you can get, you know, a whole, you could get a big chicken and a lot of vegetables into a 12 inch cast iron. And you can also saute in them. So that's very efficient.

One more thing. Unless you don't think, I mean, do you need a knife? Oh, yeah. Is that equipment? Yeah, it's equipment. Oh, okay. I think of knives as tools.

Okay. I'm like equipment and tools. Yeah, I would then get like a nine inch carbon, you know, stainless slicing knife. A brand you love? I love my UX10, which is a Masono knife. It's a Japanese knife. I've had it since I was a line cook at Unip Pacific. Oh, I like, it's like, thin through so much with you.

It really has. What are three things you would teach your younger self? Oh. Oh, my God. Appreciate your hot body. My God. I think it's such a fascinating thing that I will look at a photo that I guaranteed that I looked fat in five years ago. And I'll be like, I looked so good.

So annoying. And I didn't post it or share it with anybody because I thought it looked terrible. Same. Yeah. And it's like so annoying. Don't cut your hair. short. It's not a good look for you. So that I've had short hair for like a while. And oh, my younger self. I actually would have, you know, we were talking about like other people going out and partying more when I,

I would have partied a little bit more. Like partied. I'm very happy with how everything ended up. I've been married for 20 years. But I met my husband when I was really young. So like maybe if I could have delayed that two or three years just for like a little bit of irresponsibility. Like I was always very responsible. I could have been a slightly less responsible. You know, my dad thinks that you should do all your irresponsible stuff when you're like 70 because the repercussions aren't as bad because if you get a tattoo, hey, you're going to have it for like 20 years instead of 80 years.

And if you get a weird STD, you're going to have it for 20 years instead of 80 years. So he's like, he's like, you should go to your orgies. You should do all the drugs. Like, why not? Yeah. So you can do it with your husband. Something to look forward to you. You know, when I'm doing ayahuasca in retirement.

Perfect. I think that's excellent. All right. Last one from my audience. Who was your favorite back-to-back celebrity celeb in the test kitchen? And do you have any gossip about that? Because that's such a fun series.

I, God, funnest. Probably Shangela was the funest. And it was just, she was the perfect combination. for me, which is that on back-to-back, it's the most fun for me when the other person really can't cook. Because when the other person can kind of cook, it's like, well, what are we even doing? You know what I mean? Do you ask for, like, when you're deciding to do that series, do you usually try to pick chefs that haven't cooked that much? No, it's just always a bonus.

The way that we choose is kind of like there's so many factors involved, including, like, timing and what a person is promoting and, like, who's in New York and, like, who's, else will, you know, do well on that platform. And like, I just like to find out what their skill level is so that I can tailor the recipe to kind of, if it's someone who's more experienced, then I would want to do something that's like challenging for me too so that there's always like, there should be a struggle. Right. You know, we have to overcome something together. Yeah.

But Shangela couldn't cook at all. Like had no, I mean, the first line, I was like, so, um, the first line. first thing we're going to do is like put whatever in the pot and she goes okay what's a pot which i almost didn't like really quite register that she said it in when it was actually happening um but when you watch it she's like literally looking at the station she's like what's a pot oh my gosh i haven't seen this it was it's an older one and then the other thing that was so amazing about her was she was she was so performative she was giving it a thousand percent so i have no idea what's going on behind me Like, we really don't turn around and I don't look.

She was partying for the camera so hard. So the episode is so fun to watch because she was just like, she never stopped. Like, she kicked her shoes off and, like, partied her way through the entire thing. And then we also made churros together and she did it. So that's very gratifying. Really fun. Yeah, that's super cool. Do you, are you a person who gets, like, starstruck by any type of celebrity?

Oh, everybody. Every time. Oh, yeah. You seem so casual. It's just like, I just. have to remember I get really nervous before that's when I'm the most nervous is like the half hour before because my call time is always half an hour before the talent arrives so when I come back to do the little run through last like kind of station check and and then I'm waiting for them to show

up that's when I get the most nervous and um the funny thing is that like when they walk in they're nervous. Because it's, it's probably much more out of their comforts than anything else they're doing on press tour. Exactly. And I think a lot of people think that we're going to goof them or like make them look bad or intentionally make it like so hard that something like explodes in there and they get splashed, you know? And I tell people, I'm like, us doing the same amount of good is like the goal. So the last person I did one with was DeAndre Jordan from the Nets. And he's over seven feet tall. And he walked in and he was like, we had to like bring in a whole new piece of camera equipment because he's taller than the pot rack that like is over the station.

And so they had to bring in a jib, which like our, the guy who was directing was like, I was like, oh, is that a jib? He was like, oh, fancy, like, camera word. Like, everybody was, like, really excited. We had to, like, change a whole setup. And he's like a world famous performer, like, you know, does athleticism on stage at, like, the top of his, you know, powers. With hundreds of thousands of people watch. And he walked into the kitchen and was like, I'm nervous. And I was like, me too, but, like, for different reasons.

And then once we start cooking, I relax. because I'm doing the thing I know how to do. Who are you most starstruck by? Natalie Portman. I couldn't believe she agreed to, I mean, they told me Natalie Portman was coming and I thought everybody was like screwing with me. And was like, Carla and Natalie Portman's coming to do back.

And I was like, oh, yeah, real funny. And who's next? Like George Clooney and they were like, no. Yeah, he's next. Seriously, Natalie Portman's coming. Was she nice? So nice. Does she have that star radiant thing, though,

where you're like, even if you were in a normal restaurant, like, I would know you're a special, like, even if I'd never seen you in a movie, I would know you're a special person. 100%. And she's tiny. She's, I know. It's my favorite thing about celebrities is they're all my height. And my height is the thing that I'm the most sensitive about in the world. And that when I meet any celebrity, I'm like, oh, you're so short. I mean, they're also like half my width. But they're tiny. I love it. It makes me really happy. She was, you know, she was cool because she really likes food. She's vegan, right? She's vegan. So we came up with like, I came up with, you know, this vegan recipe that would be really fun to do. But she used a mandolin. She like, you know.

And she was, you know, the thing that's so fun for me is like at the end, the people who don't think they can cook are like so proud of what they did. And that to me is just the funest part of it is like, you know, we're doing it. because it's fun and it's funny to watch two people kind of struggle through this and get. But it's so gratifying that at the end, someone is just like, wow, like I did not think I was going to be able to do that. And now we're eating, you're eating the food that I made. Like, that has been a little bit of, you know, microcosm of what I hope the recipes do, you know, and that all of the other, the hosted videos where we take somebody through the steps,

like getting feedback from people through Instagram or Twitter, like, I didn't think I could cook. And then I watched her video. And then I tried it. And like, this is this thing that I made. It was amazing. And like, that's, that's the best. Your videos are there's so, the hands and pans, you're not,

you're seeing what people are doing, but you're not seeing why they're doing it. And I think that's why so many of your series are so interesting because you're seeing the why behind things. And you actually feel like you're becoming a better cook. I hope so. Awesome. And then there's people who just like to watch it to wind down before they go to sleep. and that's fine too.

All the things. Okay, quick fire. Have you ever been somewhere in the world and been like the people here really got it right in terms of health or happiness? And if so, where? Oh, I don't know about health, but every time I've traveled in Mexico, I was like the people here are the nicest best people in the world. Anywhere in Mexico?

I mean, I've been a few different places. I've been in Mexico City. I've been to the Yucatan. I've been to like the like surfy part on the west coast and everywhere I've been, the people there are like the best. Yeah. Awesome. I need to, I'm saving Mexico for when I move back to California because it's closer and we're

closer to Europe here. So I'm like, you're close to the Yucatan here, though. I know I should just go. Yeah. I need to go to Oaxaca next. I'm dying. Yeah. That's so high on my, I just want to eat my way through all of Mexico.

Is there a purchase that you've made recently that's made. made your life healthier, happier. Yes. It's not that sexy. But when I was in Portland, I went to the Nike store and I got a new pair of shoes because I'd been in the same ones and realized that the shoes I've been wearing were a full size too small. Oh, no.

And so now I'm wearing these shoes and I'm like, that's why I was having like all of this like cramping in my arches. So dumb. But like, yes, it has made me much happy. That's a good one. What do you think is the best way to spend 20 minutes every day in terms of living your best life? Hot shower. Oh, for a full 20 minutes. You're like my husband. All my best ideas. This is why we can't move back to California because you can't really like cause the drought. No, all of my best ideas have come like midway through a very hot shower. Interesting. Do you pop out and write them down?

Sometimes I stick my head out. I'm like, hey, Siri, take dictation. I came up with my deck, you know. do you feel successful and what does being successful mean to you? I do feel successful. I think that I have set like a bunch of goals and then I did them. And that's meant a lot to me. Like I think the decision to write a cookbook was sort of like, I don't know why I just, I just thought it was like a thing that I should do and that I had it in me. And then I did it.

And then I was like really happy with how it came out and was like, what do again? I think being in a workplace that I've been in for as long as I have and getting now like I have 20 years in the same field. I don't love a lot of things about getting older. But one of the things that's been great has been that you do get better and better at things, especially when you stay in the same like trade, you know. I know. And I think there's such an instinct these days for myself included. I think I've always stayed writing approximate, but people want to bounce around.

I think a lot more than they used to. And I do think that's something that's lost. Yeah. With the stuff that I have stuck with, I, you writing, I've seen it just get better and better and better with time. Yeah. And I think that when I look back like at my younger self, I still am, you know, I have a short fuse. I can get caught up on like small things.

Like that's part of how I'm wired. But I'm so much calmer than I was. So in that way, like, you're, you're hopefully evolving into a better version of yourself. You know what I mean? Like, you're never not going to, like, be yourself. And that's just part of how I'm wired. But those things have, like, become less. Like, I used to be much more competitive with people.

And that's become, like, less over time. Because you've just grown or because now you, like, legitimately are just one of the best people because you put in all that time. No, I think it's just that I've like grown and have more perspective on it. And I think I also ended up in a workplace where we really root for each other like all the time, you know? Like I hired Molly, Andy and Chris. And now they're they're my equals and their achievements. They will, they're going to out achieve me.

and I'm like psyched for them, like genuinely psyched for them. And I think that that came from being in a workplace where like we really did support each other. You know what I mean? So that feels that feels really good to like come out, look back and be like, this has grown and been this thing that's really important to me. And then also I have, I like really like my kids. I'm very proud of them. I think they're like good humans.

And so as a parent, you have to feel a little bit of like, good, you know, good job, you. Like, I know that they are the way that, you know, you are who you are. And that's true for your children, too. They're going to be who they're going to be. But I'm like some amount of just parenting decisions that we've made, like are coming back and that we have these like good children, you know. Yeah. And even if it, they are who they are, you like created them on a cellular level. So you get credit for that too.

Yeah, you get credit no matter what. My son has one, my older son has like the most incredible curly hair. And I'm like, yeah. You're welcome. You're welcome. That came from my side. Is your husband straight? Yeah.

And blonde. So, yeah. All right. All right. Last one. What is one thing, one big mistake you've made and one thing that you really feel like you got right? Maybe a big mistake was leaving Shake shack before they expanded and went

public because I would have a different life. Like people I hired as interns at ShakeShack are like regional managers and were, you know what I mean? And then I'm like, I'm so happy for everybody. But if you hadn't done that, would you have had the editorial experience when the BA job came along? And I left because that was the right thing for me. So it wasn't, I don't think of that necessarily.

Are you motivated by money? Is that like a driving factor? in your life, would you say? Or are you more motivated by other factors? I'm, I don't, yeah, being in media, like, you can't be that motivated by money. And I think if I had had that thought, I would have chosen a completely different career. I never, I didn't think, I really honestly was just like, it'll, it'll work out. I like money. You know, money makes things easier. Having more money makes things easier. And I have more money now than I did as like a line cook who made four.

$450 a week. And like that has been good. One of the best parts of getting older as far as I can tell. That's what my dad said to me when I turned 40. I was like, uh, like I'm turning 40. I can't at, I don't like this. And he was like, he was like 40s, 40's good. 50's better.

And I was like, what planet are you on? Like I'm telling you, I don't even want to turn 40. And you're telling me that like 50 is better. Like what part of this aging thing are. you not computing? He was like, well, I had more money when I was 50 than when I was 40. So 50 was better. And I was like, wow, leave it to a man. But it's also like, I mean, I remember, it wasn't that long ago that I, like, wanted to throw Zach a birthday party and I literally didn't have the money to, like, throw him a birthday party that I thought he'd be excited about.

And now I feel like I can. And that's cool. I remember thinking when I was younger that, like, the ultimate thing would be to go out to dinner for your birthday and not have to ask everyone to split the bill and let that was like a mark of adulthood. Or when I just think even when you go out to dinner and instead of everybody being like, oh, I only ate the $7 thing when people or when they fight over who gets to pick it up, I always saw my parents doing that and I was like, can you imagine fighting over getting to pick up the check? What?

That's so funny. That happened to me yesterday. I was out to lunch with someone and, you know, I just thought we were going to split it. And she was like, no, like, I'm doing this. And it was so sweet and also getting to a point where you're like, okay, like, I'm going to get you. I'm going to get you back. It's a magical, magical thing. And it's so grown up feeling.

Okay. What's one thing you really got right? Take us home. I think that. So I got married when I was 26, which is pretty young to get married. and we're still married. And so I don't think you get to go through as many transitions as we've been through, which is also like from, you know, when we got married, I was a line cook who made $450 a week

before taxes to like the life that we have now and having, you know, two kids. And like, I think I made a good decision, which like most of the decisions you make. when you're 26, you don't expect to, like, live with for 20 years. And I definitely didn't think about it as like, well, I'm a 26-year-old whose brain is like not even done developing. And I'm not a fully, like, formed human, really adults, but I'm going to make this, like, massive life decision. And we got married and moved into this house the same within two or three months. And so I, yeah, it kind of nailed that one for sure. Is there a secret to having like a long, we're 13 years then. Yeah. So my secret to having a long marriage is don't get divorced.

Even when it's like hard. I mean, no, I'm being facetious. Like if you don't get divorced, you'll have a long marriage. Have a long marriage. But also like there, I think there is some truth to like the divorce rate used to be lower because people didn't think divorce was an option. Right. I think for me, one of the realizations I had was that not every year is going to be an A plus. And if you're in it for the long haul, like, you have to be okay with that. Like, we've had some like C's and C pluses where you're like, that wasn't our best year. You know, my husband hates when I say that. He's like, oh, that's terrible. I'm like, not every one of these is going to be like amazing. Well, and also, like, how do you know if it's an A if it's just always A is? You know. Great. I'll use that line.

Really, though. And I also think it's heartening for people who, like, we are not, unless you were lucky enough to grow up in a happy marriage home, which I think fewer and fewer people are, the only examples we're given of relationships are these really perfect pristine. And then you feel crappy that your relationship doesn't appear to be that. So I think people talking about, like, it's not always that is so important. Yeah. I mean, definitely feeling like, you know, that was a really.

hard year. Yeah. Or like we had to make sacrifices that weren't that fun or, you know, parenting small kids like puts an insane amount of stress in your interpersonal life. And like, but you're going to come out the other side and like there would be better years. You know what I mean? Yeah, I love that. So I think that has been and it's like the realist in me that's like, all right, that wasn't the best. You know what I mean?

Like, yeah, but you got to like work it out. I think we both came from both of our parents were in long marriages that had ups and downs. You know what I mean? And then you got to like work it out. Love that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk. It was my pleasure. Thanks for being here.

All right. I hope you loved that episode. Carla was so lovely and her cats were so cute, which is definitely high on my list of loving a person. If you did love this episode and you wouldn't mind terribly, if you could share it with somebody that you think would also love it. That's one of the best, best ways to support this podcast. And I massively appreciate it. And if you haven't left a rating or review on iTunes yet,

I would massively appreciate that as well. It honestly takes like 10 seconds. You don't have to write very much, but it's hugely helpful in helping other people find the podcast. And I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. And I read every single rating and review, and often they make me cry. So thank you for that. I hope you love this episode.

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