The Liz Moody Podcast - Dating Hot Takes: TradWives, Who Should Pay, Sex On The First Date & More

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

In this episode of the Liz Moody Podcast, Liz Moody is joined by guest, Sabrina Zohar, entrepreneur and the host of the Sabrina Zohar Show, a top podcast helping women find the relationships they deserve. They discuss the challenges and hot-button topics of modern dating — What does it mean if you’re not texting every day? Should men always pay? How do you deal with conflicting attachment styles? Is it true that “if he wanted to, he would?” What does it mean to be “in your masculine” or “in your feminine,” and what makes a high value man or woman? Listen to this episode to learn the answers to these questions, plus hear their personal dating stories. 2:00 Texting Everyday 4:13 Asking for What You Need 9:48 Anxiety 14:28 If He Wanted To, He Would? 18:09 Avoidant Attachments 20:32 Anxious Attachments 21:55 Changing Your Attachment 24:53 Who Should Pay? 29:07 “High Value” Men and Women 33:45 Tradwives 36:58 When He’s More Into You 41:50 Why is Safety Boring? 44:26 Sex on the First Date For more from Sabrina, you can find her on Instagram @sabrina.zohar. Listen to The Sabrina Zohar Show or take Sabrina’s Courses. Ready to uplevel every part of your life? Order Liz’s new book 100 Ways to Change Your Life: The Science of Leveling Up Health, Happiness, Relationships & Success now!  To join The Liz Moody Podcast Club Facebook group, go to www.facebook.com/groups/thelizmoodypodcast. Connect with Liz on Instagram @lizmoody, or subscribe to her newsletter by visiting www.lizmoody.com. If you like this episode, check out How To Make Dating Fun Again—AND Meet The Love Of Your Life with Matthew Hussey, a world-renowned dating expert and coach. This episode is sponsored by: Puori: go to puori.com/LIZMOODY and use promo code LIZMOODY for 20% sitewide. Cymbiotika: use code LIZMOODY on cymbiotika.com to get 15% off plus free shipping on subscription orders. Osea: get 10% off your first order at oseamalibu.com with code LIZMOODY10. Naväge: go to Navage.com/LIZMOODY and use the promo code LIZMOODY for a free cleaning kit with your starter pack. The Liz Moody Podcast cover art by Zack. The Liz Moody Podcast music by Alex Ruimy. Formerly the Healthier Together Podcast.  This podcast and website represents the opinions of Liz Moody and her guests to the show. The content here should not be taken as medical advice. The content here is for information purposes only, and because each person is so unique, please consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions. The Liz Moody Podcast Episode 264. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast, where every week we're sharing real science, real stories, and realistic tools that actually level up every part of your life. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a bestselling author and longtime journalist. Let's dive in. Today, we are sitting down with Sabrina Zohar, a dating coach and host of the Sabrina Zohar show. This is such a fun episode. Sabrina and I are sharing all of our most controversial dating opinions and hot takes. We are weighing in on some of the most hot button topics going around these days. Like whether or not if he wanted to, he would is true. Who should pay on the first date? Whether sex on the first date is a good idea. The whole trad wife phenomenon, I had a lot of

opinions about this, and it is probably not what you think. The idea of being in your feminine or your masculine energy, we both also had a lot of opinions about this one, and so much more. You must DM me and Sabrina. Tell us what you disagree, what you agree with, what your hottest dating takes are. Also, this is a pod swap. Next week, I'm going to be on the Sabrina Zohar show, and I shared a ton of my own story. I shared some of my favorite ways to create change in your life. I shared my best tips on getting through tough times.

So definitely go follow her show so you do not miss it. One super quick note, I know that 50% of you listening to this episode do not follow the podcast. Take a second now to hit that follow or subscribe button. It is the best way to support the podcast, and it makes sure that episodes show up right in your feed. Go ahead, do it right now. I'll wait. Trust me, you do not want to miss out on any of our upcoming shows.

They are jam-packed with science and stories that will change your life. All right, let's get right into the episode. Sabrina, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, dude. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you. We're going to get into dating hot takes today. It's controversial opinions, things that people are happy.

Having thoughts on on the internet that you have thoughts on and we'll dive into what we think about them. So let's just get started. What's a hot take you have? Oh, God, there's so many. The first one, just immediacy that we see so much clickbait on is if they don't text you every day that they don't like you. And I was that girl. I really was. I was that girl.

If this guy, and I'm speaking in gender norms as a straight woman dating straight men, so please feel free to replace they, however you would like. But when I first started dating, if it was, no, no, no, but if he doesn't text me every day, he doesn't like me. And I was so anxious, I would sit by my phone, and I would wonder, and I would create narratives, like, what was going on and why, why, why? until I met my partner. And he was off the bat, set a boundary, and it was so beautiful. I remember I asked him, I said, I'd love more texting in between our dates to feel more connected. And he went straight to like, hey, this is not a sign of my disinterest. He was like, I'm working tech. I'm on a computer nine hours a day. The last thing I want to do when I get done with this is be on my phone now away from my family and stuff. And he was like, if you're down for having consistent plans and calling instead, that sounds great if not, I completely respect you. And I was like, oh, that was not what I was taught. And so then I started to really understand. the false sense of intimacy that we create when we're stuck to our phones and we're not looking eye to eye, we're not engaging in a conversation. I'm not genuinely getting to know you. I'm just creating words based on what I would like this to feel like from my phone. A hundred percent. And also, sometimes people just don't like to text. That's the thing I don't like about these universal rules.

Like, if you like to text you every single day, like some people just don't really like to text. Some people don't like talking the phone. I don't like to talk on the phone. When my husband and I are traveling separately, we don't talk on the phone at all. And my friends always get really freaked out by because it'll be like a week and I won't talk to him at all. And I'm like, no, I see him all of the time in my daily life. I'm with you guys right now. I want to be enjoying my friends and I want him to be enjoying. If he's on a ski trip or something, I want him to be enjoying that. So what I love about what you said is that you said to him, hey, I really want texting. And I think that's a really important part of this conversation too. If you have a need, instead of sitting there and saying, what's the

story about this? What does this mean? You asked for it. You said, hey, I have this need. And then that gave him the opportunity to give you the real reason why he didn't want to meet that need. We'd been dating for a month at that point. Some people do this after the first date and you're like, hey, hold your horse. Like, let this person, like, show up. If you don't ask for a need to be met, how the fuck is it going to be? Some people are really good at attuning. I wish all of us could understand that.

But the reality is, as a child, I was not met with parents that attuned to my needs and understood what it was that I needed. And asking for your needs to be met was really scary for me. Yeah. Because you could be hurt and punish as a child. Now in the adult world, I hear it all the time. Like, I'm sure you see the same content that I do on the internet. of just this villainization of anybody that doesn't do exactly what it is that the other person wants,

if you don't text me every single day. And the funny thing is, anytime I'll create content on that and then I'll get, you know, the thousands of comments, well, this guy didn't text me every single day and he didn't want anything. And it's like, okay, what else was happening? Right? Because it's not just the fact that this person's not texting you every day. Oh, right. They also weren't calling. They also weren't making plans. They avoided any kind of conversations of intimacy and depth. They only wanted to hook up. Well, then they're that. is. And the pendulum also swings to the other side. I have had it personally and professionally where somebody can text you every single fucking day, all day, some good morning and this and this and the

cutes and the this and I'm thinking of you and all that. That person might not want a relationship. They just like the intention. They like the validation. When it comes to the texting, because it's such a big area of opportunity for us to grow, we have to really understand, like, what is the narrative that you're convincing yourself of if this person doesn't do that? And then what is the feeling that you're afraid of happening if that doesn't happen? How do you know what, requests you make of a potential partner of an early stage partner need to be met versus which ones you can let go of. So you said, hey, I really want you to text. And he said, that's not really my jam. How do you know when they should be trying to beat your needs versus when you can let go of

or compromise on those needs? So I look at like 80-20. If I have 80% of what I need, it's pretty like you have a partner. He's not 100%. No one is. I'm not 100% of his needs. It's physically impossible. I cannot fill your cup to that extent. For instance, when I had the texting thing, The first thing I did was, okay, Sabrina, outside of this, is there anything else you are really needing from this person? And I was like, no, he validates me. The sex is great. We have consistent plans.

So I really had to stop and understand, is this a valid need? It could be a valid want. But do I need this in order to continue on the relationship? Do I need this person to text me good morning every single morning? You might say, yes, I need my partner to do that. But the word here that we're losing is partner. We have to understand that there are certain aspects that come with. with a relationship, people will skip to relationship land.

And they'll skip over dating land and courtship land and getting to know this person land. And they go right into, I want a relationship. But you don't really know this person that well. But why aren't they doing all of these things? It's like, well, because you missed the courtship phase of allowing yourself to get to know this person authentically and see if this person can validate your needs, satisfy your needs. If I expressed myself, when I told my partner what I said, if he had said, God, you're fucking dramatic.

That would have been, hey, this isn't a safe space for me anymore. But I think it's about when we have to really understand, like for me, it was, okay, what did I need that texting for? Well, I wanted to feel more connected in between dates. So that was my reasoning. And then when he came saying, well, that's cool, let's just have phone calls. Right. That works. We came up with a compromise of he doesn't want to text. I do. How can find a middle ground? I think it's important to be able to go, okay, you know what? Maybe I don't need the texting because my friend isn't I text all the time. I've got my girlfriend or my mom. Those are the people I can text all the time. But this person, cool, I can have a phone call or we have a date planned. And I think it's just being able to be cognizant of what else is there that is not being met. Because if it's, well, they're not texting me. Okay, what other needs? Well, they don't make me feel safe. They don't listen to me. They don't make me feel seen heard and understood. Okay, so a lot of your needs aren't being met. But we're just looking at, but they don't text me. Is the texting a thing unto itself or is it a symptom of something deeper? Exactly. It's like, is it a byproduct of or is it a byproduct of? Or is it a core belief? You met your partner young. And so it was just

different. Ten years ago before the iPhone was mainstream. It was harder to text. We're not ready for the technology that we have being cognizant of, okay, if I am so ingrained in this dopamine hit, and every time I'm waiting for the text and what it does to my brain, it's starting to understand, well, wait a minute again, is this actually a need? Understanding what's happening in your brain is so important to, like you said dopamine. It is literally mimicking a slot machine. That's what text messages do. So there are rewards that don't come at defined intervals. You have a reward. You have a text that comes in, and then you don't know when the next one's coming in. That's literally a slot machine. And so your brain is on the hook for that next hit. It is triggering your dopamine in such

uncomfortable ways. And so understanding, okay, this isn't necessarily even saying anything about our relationship. It's just hijacking these reward motivations systems in my brain and making me want that next hit, which I don't know when it's coming. I don't know when the slot machine is going to pull down the three cherries. And the text is the three cherries. Exactly. Usually what I see as well as they don't text you. What's coming after? That's the core belief. That's what I really am interested in and of like, okay, so what did you say to yourself? Well, I knew they didn't like me. I knew that no one was going to choose me. I knew that this. And it's like, ah, okay, that was you scanning for safety. That was that hypervigilance. I know you're going to leave me. You're going to abandon me.

See, there's the proof. More often than not, when we peel back the layers and when I have real conversations with people of like, let's talk about what this anxiety is, 99.99.99% ends up going towards the, by the end of the conversation, it's like, yeah, scared I'm going to be abandoned as a kid. And this was really reminiscent. And these feelings are feeling scary. I understand that. But that doesn't mean that that's just the card you're dealt. Sure, you didn't ask for your anxiety. You didn't ask for that anxious attachment style and dating, but it is your responsibility to heal through it so that it's not someone else's problem.

Well, and you can. You can. Like, the nice thing about exactly what you described is it gives you the information like, oh, I need to heal this thing. And that's going to make you better off in your dating. It's going to make you better off in your future relationships. And you can heal those attachment styles, not just through romantic partnerships. You can heal attachment styles through friendships,

through other relationships in your life, and then that will carry over into your dating and relationships. 100%. For anybody that's like, I didn't learn this in childhood. You did. You learned something in childhood. You had a caregiver that was just emotionally unavailable. Some people, their dad just doesn't talk about emotions.

So, of course, they were, oh, yeah, you know, you're right. When I would cry in front of my dad, he didn't know what to do. That doesn't mean your parents a bad person. That just means that they weren't able to attune to your needs in the ways that you needed them to, which will then create this. Oh, see, it's not safe for me to have emotions. Okay, shut down. Don't say anything.

And that starts to become a thing. thing. I was the poster child for anxious attachment. Your girl was crying if a guy didn't text me, having panic attacks if I didn't hear back, until I realized I actually had so much agency and control and choice. What made you realize that? Once I went back and saved myself, truthfully, and I'll explain what I mean by that. I used to think everything was outward. You, you, you, you, you, as somebody with a lot of anxiety, I really believed it was everybody else. But once I started to connect the dots of, okay, so this person doesn't text me, right? How does that make me feel right by my body? I don't need to know the narrative. What's happening sensation-wise? Whoa, I'm having heart palpitations. I'm

sweating. Okay, so I'm dysregulated because my body thinks I'm going to die. When we get dysregulated, there's a threat. Okay, your phone is not the threat, but your body is perceiving it as I'm going to die if this person doesn't message me. And so it was first, okay, wow, this is how I'm feeling in my body. Okay, do I ever remember feeling this before? Once the first time I remember feeling these sensations in my body when my father would discredit me as a kid or when my father would walk out or when my father would say this, man, I felt that pain in my chest. Okay, so how old is that version of me? She's like seven. If that's seven-year-old here right now and she's crying and she's scared, they're going to leave her, they're going to abandon her. What do you think she needs

to hear from you? And more often than not, most people would be like, you're going to be okay, everything's fine. If I said that to you, would you feel validated? Would you feel like, oh, wow, you really heard and saw me? No, instead, what I would say to her is like, hey, that's so valid, given everything that you've been through going up, that this would feel how this would feel. But I want you to know that I choose you and I love you. And it really doesn't matter if these other people do because I'm here to show up for you and I'm here to let you know that I've got your back and that we don't need to live through this chaos anymore. And I can remove you now to a safe space. And that was years of talking to her until she started to trust me to where she understood like, wow, there's someone that has my back because I, the adult, I'm going to make the decision. I don't need her as the child to take the seat. I love that. I love that so much. You hear about this stuff so much. You can hear the science, can hear the information. But seeing it in practice makes such a huge difference being like you're a real person. You applied all of this information, all this science, when you changed your life. I'm not any different than anybody.

I'm not a unicorn. What it was was I take every fucking opportunity as this isn't happening to me. It's happening for me. Even something as small as my partner triggering me, right? Because he's a human. It's going to happen. I will stop and be like, okay, what's happening in my body? Look, last night I was just sharing the story.

We went to the hotel. It was like, oh, I should experience. The AC was broken. It was like a whole thing. I kept saying the noise. I was like, I'm not going to be able to sleep. The noise is driving me insane. And he was just going, no, come on, there's no noise. I got dysregulated. And I went to the bathroom and I was huffing and puffing. It took me a second. And I finally came up and he was like, hey, I can tell. Like, there's something going on. Are you okay? And I finally stopped and I said, it felt really stop. And I said, it was dismissing my emotions and feelings. I'm telling you something bothers me. And I would really like you to at least validate that this is an experience for me instead. Now, in the old days, I would have just screamed at him or popped off or left. No, instead, you can put space between reaction and response. Take a sense. into process. It wasn't the fact that he said something to me. What I felt was, I felt discredited, I felt dismissed. He didn't mean to do that. But I'll tell you this. I created a story. Oh,

he's an asshole. What a piece of you. All of that. And then I had to stop and go, Sabrina, where's the facts? Where's the proof? You're feeling dysregulated. Maybe move it around. That's why I was huffing and puffing. Healing doesn't mean that you no longer feel these things. All it means is you now have the tools. A hundred percent. Did you sleep? No, we didn't. And you know who didn't? He didn't. Because the morning he was like, yeah, you're right. It was vibrating. And I was like, thank you. And I don't need to be right, but all I do need is that I have a partner that supports me. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually

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Support yourselves and how you age with mitopure gummies from Timeline. Visit Timeline.com slash Liz and save up to 39% on your mitochondere gummies. That is timeline.com slash Liz. And what I love about those moments, too, like, I've had these incredible days right after nights that I haven't slept at all. And every time you have that, it's like an opportunity. Oh, I did a really great podcast and I didn't sleep last night. And it was fine because the thing that you're spiler in about the night before is it's not just I'm not going to sleep. It's I'm not going to sleep. And then I'm not going to enjoy tomorrow. I'm not going to be able to show up tomorrow. I'm not going to be able to perform tomorrow. And once you have those proof points that you could indeed enjoy show up perform, it changes everything. So I view those is not only. happening to me but for me as well. I'm like, oh, this is an opportunity to build a proof point for myself that the story that I'm telling myself is not necessarily true. I love challenging my thoughts. Like another fucking dating that drives me insane is like, if he wanted to, he would. And while I understand on paper, like, oh, that guy didn't call you, well, I didn't

want to. That person's just not interested. But when we say that, if he wanted to, he would, you're taking ownership and accountability away from yourself. What's your part in this? Because maybe it has nothing to do with him not wanting to. And maybe it's because you're anxious and really impatient and you're blowing up on this person every time they don't do what you want them to. So this person's removing himself because that's not a safe space for them to be in. It's not always just, you want to be a millionaire? Well, you must not want it bad enough. But that's not about want. It's about a deeper, do you have the bandwidth, do the tools? Do I think that if I want to some dude that has never been to therapy before? And I have a

conversation like that's that he's going to understand it. That doesn't mean he doesn't want to. That could just mean that he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. This is a language I'm not receiving. What's the systems that you live in? The millionaire example is a great. If you wanted to be a millionaire, okay, what schools do you go to? What people do you have access to? And I believe that you can change all of these things. You can build all these things into your life. But in the context of dating, it's like you need to account for the world in which the person lives. And like, let's be real. I'm not changing for other people. I get it every day on the internet of like, I don't like the way you talk. I'm going to change who I am because you want that. Well, then that's not me staying authentic to myself. And so I think when we use these and just slap the sayings on, it's very victim. I didn't do anything. That's a on them. When we think of what is a victim, there are plenty of them. Victims mean you have no choice, you have no agency. You did not get a say in this. That's what makes you a victim that you were a subject of something that happened. You are not a victim because the guy that you went on one or two

dates with didn't text you back. That's just dating. That's just part of being the world. Maybe I can also look and say, did I play a part in this dynamic? And like, what was that? And I'm always a big fan of did the person have the information that they needed to show up for you? I talk about this with my husband all of the time. He plans our dating anniversary and I plan our wedding anniversary. And I always had this dream of what he would do for our dating anniversary and make me feel so seen and so loved. And then he wouldn't do it. And every year would come around and I'd be so angry and grumpy with him. And I'd be like, why didn't you like make this plan? And then one year I realized I had never told him what my dream anniversary day looked like and what I actually wanted for that day. So he wanted

to. If he wanted to, he would. He wanted to. He did not have the information to. I have a girlfriend and all she wanted was flowers for Valentine's Day. And I was like, you need to tell the person you're dating. They've been together only a few weeks. And she was like, I don't know if he's going to acknowledge Valentine's Day. I really just want him to get me flowers. It does not need to be a big deal. I just want flowers. And I was like, you need to tell him. He might think Valentine's Day is a dinner. He might think it's too soon to celebrate Valentine's Day. And he'll freak you out and scare you away. You are not giving him the information that if he wanted to, he would, he can actually show up for you and utilize that information. 100%. I had a similar Valentine's Day. When Ryan and I first met,

He didn't do anything because he was like, I don't believe in this. Okay, well, that had nothing to do if you wanted to do what. It was like, you didn't know that that meant something to me. Sure enough, this year, oh, sure enough, she got like six chocolate boxes. I told him, I was like, all I want of the heart-shaped chocolate boxes. I was like, I love him. I want to be able to rip them open and eat the what I want and he came home with like six and he was like, I know this is what he want.

And he had flowers on top. That's not his thing. But by me expressing and saying, hey, this means a lot to me. I gave the tools. Here's the roadmap. If you have the desire and bandwidth, go down that. And it's okay, though, if people don't. I don't know if you've seen how, like, the avoiding has a really bad rap.

I'm avoidantly attached. Are you? So I just did a podcast with an attachment expert, Dr. Judy Ho. It's amazing. Everybody should go listen to it. So if you're trying to figure out your attachment salaries, you're listening to this, go listen to that. It'll help you figure it out.

But I always thought I was anxiously attached. And I came into the podcast thinking I was anxiously attached. And I'm pretty well versed in this stuff. Like my parents are both psychologists. My sister's psychologist. Both my husband's parents are psychologists, all these things. But I thought I was anxiously attached. And she's slowly convinced me over the episode that I'm avoidantly attached.

Interesting. Which I did not know. A lot of my attachment styles have healed over the years, but a lot of the tendencies that I will go to in my worst moments come from avoidant attachment. A lot of the things that I have grown out of since being in a secure relationship and a number of secure relationships were avoided from my childhood. Here's the beauty of that. Like you said, you still have anxiety, though. Whether you're avoiding an angst, it doesn't matter. There's still the same fears.

Wait, so I didn't know my attachment style as being maligned on the internet. What are people saying about us? So at least I'm expressing myself is usually what the anxious folks will say. And it's like, no, constantly talking doesn't mean you're necessarily communicating. Okay? That was my favorite line from Eternal Sunshine, mine of my favorite movies. So just because, like, you think that you're consistently like, why aren't you doing this and what's going on? That's not clearly expressing yourself.

That's not taking any accountability. That's not using eye statements. So anxious detachers have this rabble. Like, well, at least I say something and I speak, the avoidant, you don't care. They just go inward. They are fucking assholes. And it's like this negative connotation of they just shut down. They don't care.

They don't feel. It's because we care so much. That's why we shut down. Like, I will say, the thing that unlocked it for me that I was avoidant is, like, when you're in your hard moment, do you reach out or do you withdraw into yourself? And I completely withdraw. Like, when I feel depressed, when I feel anxious, all my friends will be texting me and like, are you okay? Can we talk to you? Can we come over?

And I'm just like, I can't talk to anybody. But I want to. We're not wanting to shut down. We want the love. That's the aspect here of compassion of understanding. You're not a bad person. My partner is, like, textbook avoidant. When he gets triggered, when something happened, you know, an argument or whatever, he completely goes inwards.

He feels uncomfortable talking about his emotions. That's his shit. Me, I'm, can we please talk? Again, no one's right or wrong. We have both learned, though. Like, even now, he'll be like, this is really uncomfortable for me. I know that I need to communicate this with you, but I fucking hate it. And I'm like, that's okay. What's going on? Because I understand it's a struggle for him to do that. He is not a bad person. He is one of the best human beings I've ever met. If you have avoidance, you're not a bad person, but there's this villainizing of like my avoidance. and they avoidant, I dated, he strung me along. Oh no, no. And it's like, no, no, no. Now here's the thing, that's where we go back to that victim mode. I've dated plenty of men that are avoiding. And it's tough because you're trying to have conversations of emotions.

Usually avoidance are emotionally unavailable. They're not comfortable. The avoidant person might shut down, and it's tough to have a conversation with them. And you're like, this person's emotionally unavailable. They're not expressing themselves. For someone's secure, when you see that, you're like, yeah, you know what, hey, I get it. I'm not going to take this personally.

I know it's not a me thing. I didn't do anything. I wish you all the best. It just doesn't work for me. But then the anxious person, it's constant, I want to change you. I need to do a change. I'm uncomfortable. You need to change for me. Because for an anxious person, their environment being uncomfortable, instead of saying, I need to do work or I can remove myself, it's you need to change for me.

Because they need the external world to change for them. So, spoiler alert, anxious people are also emotionally unavailable. They're not in touch with their emotions and feelings. The anxious folk always think this common misconception of, no, I'm emotionally available. I speak my truth. And it's like, no, you've been dating the same emotionally unavailable, guy for three months begging him to change, you're unavailable as well because you're not actually tapping into your wants, needs, and desires and setting boundaries in order to walk away from something like that.

That was a hot take. And it's a hot take. And you can change your attachment style. Of course you can. I think that's such, such, such important information for people to have. You can change your attachment styles and you can become securely attached and you have different attachments in all different parts of your life. You have attachment styles with your friendships and your work, which I didn't know with, like,

your habits, like all these different things. So definitely go listen to that episodes. You can change your attachment styles. and you can be the securely attached person of your dreams. Or you have your shit. And that's totally okay. It can be changed. I was the pinnacle of the anxious girl.

And I am so secure. I don't fret. I don't think about those things anymore in my relationship. Because when you save yourself and you choose yourself, then you're allowing other people to also genuinely choose you, not fucking save you. If you were going to pick one thing you did, like one action anybody listening could take

that helped you go from anxiously attached to secure attached, can you pinpoint one for us? Can I do it two part? Yes. Okay. It was one understanding and becoming cognizant of what's happening in my body. Understanding the sensations. That was a big miss for me. I didn't get it. I didn't understand. I never realized how anxious I was around certain people. I just thought that was my baseline until I really worked on creating a secure space within myself. Then when my dad's around now, I'm like, whoa, like I can feel it's palpable. So that's the first part is start understanding the sensations in your body. The second part is start calling yourself out on your shit. The narrative that you were creating is factual between your ears. and that's really the only place. It's factual. Start challenging. What facts do I have to back up this thought process that I'm creating? Okay, that guy didn't text me, right? That's the inaction. Neutral action or inaction. I didn't get a text back. So instead of going and spiraling for six hours as to what, the first thing I do is, whoa, okay, what am I feeling in my body? I'm sweating. I'm disregulated,

okay, regulate my nervous system. Okay, what's the narrative that I created? He didn't text me back. So what do I believe about that? Well, he doesn't like me. Okay, do I faxed back that up? Well, no, I just saw him for dinner last night. Great. Okay, so that's a contrary belief. And I start to go through that of, and then I go into my, okay, how old do I feel? That little practice is going to change the game because you start to understand like, oh, wow, yeah, I actually see this a little differently. Or, you know, I was able to talk myself off the ledge.

It's just a good place to start. I love that. You mixed, like the best of several different types of therapy there, too, which I really, really like. I also like that you noted where your nervous system was at the beginning of this because you can't make good decisions from a place of fight or flight on a neurological level. You cannot make good decisions.

Yep. When your brain is in fight or flight mode, because that's not what is designed to do at that moment. So regulating your nervous system before you make any decision, whether it's a work decision, a relationship decision, your brain is just not operating in a way that you can think clear thoughts, helpful thought. So I think that's such a good tip. You don't even thinking at that point. No, you're really not. You're running from the lion in your brain.

Britt Frank explained it, when you're dysregulated, your prefrontal cortex is offline. That's your decision-making common sense. Think of it like an office building. That top floor of all the executives and the fancy office that are all making those decisions, they're gone. They're offline. The inmates are running the asylum. So all of those parts of you, you're in your amygdala, you're in your limbic part of your brain, which is going to go, shortcut. How can I do this the quickest? Because Sabrina's overwhelmed. She can't do this. Okay, she's felt this before. Just do this. It's so important when you regulate it. Hey, am I dorsal? Am I shutting down? And I can't even feel anything? Okay, I need to move myself, come back up the ladder, go back to ventral. Or am I sympathetic and I have so much energy? I'm going to fight off a tiger that doesn't exist. Okay, maybe I need to go for a walk. Or maybe I need to like punch the air or do some jumping jacks, just to say. safely move the energy. Okay, I'm feeling a bit more regulated. I have agency and choice. I'm in this present moment and now I can come back to it. A hundred percent. If you take one tip from this podcast, it's regulate your nervous system before you make any decision in your life. Find a way whether you're

vocalizing like you did in that hotel bathroom. Honestly, that regulates your biggest nerve. That's a really, really, really great thing to do, whether you're going for a walk, exercising, do one thing to regulate your nervous system. Okay, I'm going to give you a hot take from a listener. Yay. The man should always offer and expect to pay for the first few. dates. I want to feel courted, even though I'm a feminist and I can pay for myself. Okay, who taught you that is my question? Who taught you that? Right? Like, I grew up in a household that was very antiquated. Man pays for everything. Man takes care of everything. There's a flip side to that. So let's also think about where did that begin. Back in the day when we could not vote, we could not have a job. We could not do anything. The agreement was,

woman sleeps with man. Man pays for women. Let's take the gloves off. This is not new. So now, here's my thing. So you have an expectation. So you're already telling this point, person, if you don't do this, you're going to fail. But you haven't called that person this. You haven't communicated, hey, by the way, you're going to have to pay for tonight. Now, first date, I look at it as whoever asked the other person is who pays. And wait, let's hold up with that. Do you think the man in a heteronormative relationship should always be making the first move and asking the woman out on a first date? I don't think always, no. I don't want to look at anything as like, yeah, you're nay, because I think there is a lot of nuance. I'd also, we have

to remember, too, like, I have a lot of male clients. They're very confused. I had a guy right in, give you an example of how confused they are. I really like this girl. She's amazing. I really want to make her my girlfriend. But all of the content I'm reading online says that the girl needs to make the move. It looks weak if the man does. What do I do? And I was like, there's so much conflicting information. Okay, so you feel disempowered. I don't want to be part of me too. I don't want to be a creep. I don't want to overextent. I don't want to do that. We have to also think of like, what are they going through? I'm looking for a partner, not a parent. So to me, when I see this, I want to be taken care of. It's like, listen, if you want to, that's fine. That comes with a person. Christ, ain't nothing in life is free. I'm the first woman on my entire mom's side to own business and to have their own money. And the reason that came was because I watched how abusive and realistic, like just pieces of shit. These men were to women. And my mom, she couldn't leave. She didn't have any money. You want somebody that's going to take care of you. Then what's your part in this as well? You don't get to just sit back and eat bonbons on the couch. Okay, so are you going to clean and cook? Are you going to take care of the house? That's the agreement my partner and I have. He works for the company. I'm the one that's busier. I'm making more money. So then he cooks and cleans in the house because somebody has to do the dynamic. It works beautifully for us. So I think what we have to look at here is if you're looking for this provider mentality, what's the mentality that's also coming with that provider? Are they somebody who's in security doing this because they genuinely want to help their partner? Are they misogynistic and they're doing this because they now own you? That's something we also have to look at is there's going to be a lot of different types of people that have this mentality.

For me, I would ask this person who wrote in, what does that represent to you if he pays for you? My father used to take care of everything financially. That was love to me. But I have a partner that shows me love in so many other ways. It's not financial. And the men that showed me the financial love, they weren't there any other way. So I think it's just to kind of choose your poison. I have a few questions. Okay. One, to play devil's advocate. The people who say, I have to pay for my makeup. I have to spend all this time getting ready. Women make less money than men. So this is just evening the playing field a little bit to have the men pay for the first date or the first few dates. What would you say to that? You're doing that for you. Stop fucking bullshitting. You could go on

that date without your lashes, without your makeup and without your hair done to see if this person genuinely likes you. But you're doing that so you feel confident to show up on that date. But we're doing that to feel confident because we have been told by society for years and years and years and years and years and years that is what we need as women to feel confident. See, I'm biased. I showed up on my first date for my hike with my partner with no makeup and nothing in a workout outfit. We went hiking all day and then we went back to his house and we hooked up and then we went to dinner and that was the beginning of the end. Wait, I like that as a tip unto itself though. Pick dates that don't lend themselves to needing to be dolled up. Like let's take the societal messaging around getting dolled up out of it.

We're not going to solve like women being told that they need to wear makeup. I wish. Seriously. My girlfriend just went on vacation to Hawaii for a week. And she's like, I got so much time back because I just didn't do my hair makeup all week. Imagine all the time that women generally in the world could get back if we all just universally decided we weren't going to do our hair or whatever. We're not going to solve that today. But picking dates that that's not the norm for is genius.

Like, oh, let's go for a hike. Let's go for a walk. Let's go play laser tag where we're in the dark. Picking dates where you're not getting dolled up to go to a restaurant is a great tip. especially for our first date. If that's a stress, then don't do something that's going to add stress. Well, I don't want to have to pay for dinner. Okay, then don't put yourself in that position. Yeah. Set that boundary. And if you're saying, well, that doesn't make me high value. It's like, okay, so then we need to talk about where you get your value from.

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I've had more psychologists and therapists and experts on the podcast than I can count. And every single one of them agrees. Your value comes from the ethos, the morals, the ethics, and what you genuinely believe on the planet. Your value doesn't come from, well, I went on a coffee date and not a dinner date. I don't have value. Because I hear this, how do I find high value men? And I'm like, so what does that mean to you? Oh, well, he's wealthy. So that gives you value. So you just having money means that this person has value to you. So they could be a raging piece of shit, but they have money. Right? Okay. So right off the bat, we have to look and say, who the fuck taught you that that's where your value comes from, which is based on what you do and how you interact. When we come to

the feminine and masculine thing, the reason it's so ridiculous is because who, on God's green earth determine where is the booklet to be like, this is feminine, this is masculine. Because realistically, when it comes down to it, is when we think about what does feminine feel like, she can receive, you're not trying to chase. That sounds like you're feeling safe. When I feel safe with my partner, I can disarm. I don't have to go, go, go, I can be. And when he feels safe with me, he can protect, he can be there to take care of me because it's a safe environment for us to do that with each other. So he cooks and clean, so that makes him feminine. Okay, but our household's running really well. So am I the masculine? Because I make more money. So what, I should water myself down

because that's somebody else's discomfort, but my life works really well for me. I saw this one podcast, and she said, feminism has ruined dating. Go on. Because women are too masculine. And when they're masculine, they're disrespectful. And no man's going to take that. And I was like, okay, so disrespect is masculine. So men are allowed to be disrespectful to us, but we're not allowed. So maybe it's not disrespect. Maybe it's a boundary that we're setting with these people and they're interpreting that as disrespect because a woman has a voice. That's what I mean by these norms. We created them in the 50s. Don't be seen and heard. Just cooking clean all day. That's a feminine urge. Women were put down for so long. I'm not saying that we have to now be fuck men and we don't need them. Of course we do.

We need everybody, right? We're all on this planet. We all need each other. We do need community. We do need people. But we have to stop looking as I'm not going to be in my masculine and chase. Well, maybe you can be in just a safe space so that you can also receive. It's so limited. Even what you said about like when my partner is feeling safe, he can protect. And I'm like, I love protecting my partner too. I'm not going to do it physically. I think about all the time how like if a murderer comes into our house. I'm always like, oh my gosh, you have to go deal with a murder.

Do you think about that all the times that? And he's like, no, not really. And I'm like, well, that's the difference. You're probably more equipped to go deal with a murder if they come into our house. It's like my worst nightmare. But so he's going to do it in a more physical way because he is more physically equipped to do it. But if we're in a social setting and somebody is talking about something that's making him

uncomfortable or niggling it's something that he's self-conscious about, I'm sure is heck going to protect him in that environment. I'm going to protect him against anything that somebody in my audience would say about him that might make him uncomfortable. I'm going to protect him in so many situations and environments because I love him and I want him to feel safe. And I think that when we view things from these very narrow lenses, we don't leave room for the many, many, many needs that we have as human beings. So I look at it as this way, like black and white thinking, right? That's kind of that black and white thing. If it's this or it's this, it's either good or it's bad, that polarity. And to me,

me, what healing does is it offers a gray. It allows you to take brushstrokes of each and start to create a nuance. Do you think there's any value that can be teased out of the feminine, masculine conversation that people are having online? Truthfully, what I'm seeing, no, because it's so black and white. And it's very, men do this, women do this. I would love to see a conversation that understands it a little bit more. What's missing is the nuance. There's very little nuance to paint any other picture besides you're right or you're wrong. If he doesn't do this, then he's not a man. But maybe that's not how your partner sees it. My partner, he was raised around very powerful, strong women. It's a very different environment than maybe somebody who was raised around women that are meeker. Again, do you feel

safe? There's also nothing wrong with being a bit more masculine in life. Like, I'm chasing goals. I am going after my career. I have to be a solid structure in order to do that. I had to learn that, right? Otherwise, then how are we going to succeed in our careers? I worry about it, too, insofar as it aligns with the Tradwife thing that's happening online. And I think they both point to this element to me. If I was going to extract value from it, it would be a lot of women are feeling like the world that they're living in

isn't working for them. They're having to go full throttle at work. They're having to go full throttle in their relationships. A lot of women are also going full throttle with parenting, full throttle with taking care of elderly parents, full throttle in their friendships. And people are exhausted. So the notion of sit back, receive,

your value is to let somebody take care of you, I think is a really, really appealing message, both from the Tad Wife standpoint and from this, be in your feminine. Let somebody nourish you and coddle you and take care of you. And I think if we could extract the value, it would be, can we look at all these other elements, recognize that they're not working

and maybe begin to restructure the system so that we're not having to burn ourselves out from 50 different angles. You can pick and choose. This works for me in my career, but maybe romantically it's not. Maybe I can use this here, but then leave this here.

Because I need to be a bulldog. I need to be straight. and direct, like, no one's going to protect me in my career. Or in a man's world, right? So as a woman, we're like, no, I need to be seen and heard. I need to take up space. But maybe in my relationship, that doesn't translate. And so I think it's about also being cognizant of, does it actually fuel you?

Here's something that my friend Mosh has always said that's really stuck with me. Are you running towards a goal or are you running away from a fear? Because if you're running towards a goal, then it's not going to burn you out as often. Because you're like, hey, I know that I'm growing, and I'm building and I'm showing up every day. When you're running away from a fear, then it's exhausting. I was running away from being judged by my father. I was running away from being the loser, from being the girl that no one was going to want. That's why I chased so hard in dating.

And so when I finally was like, I don't need to be doing all that, I could still be like that in my work and still pursue those things. But when I started to realize why and what was causing me to do that kind of behavior and burn myself out, oh, that was coming from dysregulation. That was coming from I'm scared of being abandoned. I'm scared of being hurt. I'm scared of being left. And so we have to kind of look, where is the pendulum swinging? And like, what is the underbelly? What is the understory?

I think anybody listening, you can say it's okay that I feel overwhelmed right now. There is more expected of women in today's day and age than there has ever been in history. We are expected to be the wife, the mother, the business owner, the boss lady, all these different things. And that has never existed before in history. And I think it's okay to say to your partner, to the person you're dating, you don't have to say, oh, I want to be my feminine. You can say, I want to feel taken care of. I'm tired. I want to be held for a second. I want to have dinner planned for me and I don't want to have to make a single decision tonight. You can ask for these things and that doesn't mean being in your feminine. That means being cognizant of your need. I could not agree more.

We're in a tough time. We're seen as equals, but not, but this, but that. They're still misogyny. But we also have to, like, what I see which kind of breaks my heart is, like, as women, we need to support each other. Yeah. I see a lot of women tearing each other down

and it's like, no, no, no, no, what are we doing? I get it. Your inner world might be dark. And I hear, I have a space for that, but that doesn't mean we have to project that onto other people so that their inner world is also dark. Yeah. We can also use other people to find our light.

I want every person that's listening to find their voice because I want to hear it. The world needs more individuality. The world needs people to have an identity. Let's start to fundamentally create that internally as opposed to waiting for the environment and society to tell us who we need to be. We also get to choose that. Yeah. When you see a woman who's doing something different for you, can you like cheer for it?

Please. That is amazing. Like, let's get more flowers in the field. Oh, I love that. This is of the same elk, but a little bit different. It's something that I hear a lot, which is that the best relationships happen when the guy likes the girl a little bit more. I'm going to have to agree. Really?

I know. I know. Okay. So we were hard against the first one, but we're into this one. Tell me why. My mama has always said this to me since I was a kid. It's a dynamic. We have to think about, like, think about when a girl really likes a guy and he's got the options, my mom says she's like, he'll never be yours. But when a man loves a woman a little bit more, like when my partner and I met, he was way more into me than I was into him and allowed me to be like, oh, okay, I don't have to chase this. When a guy is really into woman, like almost every couple I've spoken to that is successful. I would love to know the psychology, the actual behind it. But I've seen it most of the time, like when the dude's more into the woman, it's just a more successful relationship. We're not. You're more into him than he's into you?

No, we're exactly equal. We've talked about this from the beginning. But there was never a moment where he was chasing me or anything like that. It was pretty much just equal from the beginning. And this sentiment, I heard this take a million times in my life. And it always made me feel bad. I was like, oh, if I like him the same as he likes me, am I in a doomed relationship? Oh, no.

Because he should be, he should like me a little bit more. And that was never the case in our relationship. No, I think it's only if it's the opposite to me. If it's equal, yay. But I think it's when the woman likes the guy way more than the guy likes her. We see it every day where it's like she's chasing him. It just doesn't work. Now, of course, it doesn't mean that if a guy likes a girl more, it's always going to work out.

But do you think that we should be aspiring to the unequal versus the equal? No. That's the thing that always bugs me about it is like I want flowers. And also my husband likes to get flowers sometimes. Like I just think a lot of these things we think we have like special needs to be loved so much and taking care of so much. But actually most men have these needs as well. and we're acting like they don't. I'm all about equality.

I'm talking more like that courtship phase. Once you're in a relationship, it's like, I don't want one person. I asked my partner out, though, too. Like, I saw him across the bar and I, I mean, I didn't really ask him out. Like, I met him at a bar and then slept with him that night. But I saw him across the bar and I was like, that guy's really cute. I want to go talk to him. And then I did.

That also made me worried. I was like, is there something wrong with my relationship that he didn't chase me. No. If somebody's chasing, it's like, well, guess what? They're going to get bored when they catch it. Like, the whole point of it. Do you think that's true? I do think that men need some element of a chase and that you shouldn't be too available lest you turn them off.

No, that sounds like a game. What I think is that what's really sexy to somebody secure is another person that's secure in their own life that has their own stuff going on that doesn't just drop it because they're existing. That's more how I want to see it. I don't think the chase makes any sense. Why am I running from you? I want to be connecting with you. I'm not trying to run away from you because what happens is a chase of feeling. Let's think about this dynamic.

Somebody that's chasing gets their value. because they can hopefully catch you. I have to earn it. I have to work for it. It's not easy. It's that dopamine drive. Exactly. Then the person that's running learns you have to come and get me. Eventually the axes have to cross. So then what's going to happen? The person chasing a feeling. So then what's going to happen? The person chasing a feeling. Oh, you're just a fantasy. I don't actually want the person that you are. And then the person that gets caught is. But you've been running after me this whole fucking time. Dr. Scott lined. He called it the spark and fireworks. The spark. I want the spark. You're chasing a feeling. Like anything, that can't sustain. I didn't have this crazy spark when I met my partner. Sure. Some people can. Like you can have a really nice. feeling. But the, you know, like the butterflies and all these crazy emotions, it's not what you should only be looking for. You can have a beautiful and healthy relationship that doesn't have high, highs and low lows. It's very consistent and healthy. I've had people right in, I've like, oh, I had the best date last night. Oh my God, this girl or guy, whatever, they were fantastic. Okay, yeah, they checked all the boxes. Yay, okay, great, once a second date. I wasn't feeling the spark. I wasn't feeling that. And I'm like, so you're not going to go out with this other person because you didn't get a feeling

that is going to go away like that because that's a trauma response. You're chasing a feeling, which is fleeting, which isn't sustainable, yourself abandoning consistently to try to get somebody else to choose you. From a neurochemical perspective, if you're looking for people who are addicted to the chase, they're addicted to that dopamine release. And so they're just going to want another dopamine response. The dopamine is based on motivation. It's not based on reward.

So once you get the thing, your brain will just want you to get something else to motivate you, to seek out something else. So if you find somebody who's liking the chase, once they catch it, they're just going to go look for another chase. And then they'll go look for another chase and then they'll go look for another chase because they're addicted to that dopamine cycle. We know what happens with dopamine too. When it's gone and you're no longer chasing, you go below the baseline. So when you go below the baseline and you dip, your body's going to do anything just to get you back to baseline and then try to get more. You got to withdraw.

Either I chased or I wanted someone to chase me. And it was really just because I was really scared of intimacy. I was scared of someone seeing me for who I was. So it was easier to keep running because I was a moving target. Or if they were running, good, it reaffirm my core beliefs that I'd have to earn love and that it's not just, I don't deserve it and it's not worthy and I'm not just able to get it. And then you meet the healthy person. You're like, ew, they're boring. And it's like, no, your nervous system just feels really relaxed and you might not be used to that.

And that's okay. I wasn't either. But that's what we mean by like when you start to do the work of creating an internal safety of I've saved myself, I feel safe within my body. You're then able to see, oh, this person feels safe or, oh, this person does not. and you can attune to yourself and be able to take care of your own needs instead of waiting for somebody else to. Wait, get us over that you're safe so you're boring hump because I see that happen to so many of my friends and then they don't pick these guys that are so, so good for them. Get us over that hump and then we'll talk about sex on the first day. A lot of people want to go peaks and valleys because for a lot of folks, that is what love was.

Like, I grew up where it was not consistent. There was no proper representation of two very loving people being together having a healthy relationship. Movies were the only way I saw that. And so what ends up happening is when you meet somebody that's healthy, well, wait, where are your core beliefs? Because if I genuinely believe that I'm really healthy, I'm secure, I show up as that, then somebody who validates that is going to be a turn on. But usually what happens is the healthy is boring. It's like, no, because your nervous system is calm. And when your nervous system is calm, you perceive that as it's not safe because I don't know when's the next one going to come and when's the next one. I'm not safe at a normal homeostasis. I'm only safe when I'm waiting and I'm peaking and I'm highs and lows and the toxic and the drama and I need to know and when are they.

and that the neurochemicals were as healthy, that means you need to receive. And that means that you actually have to believe that you're worthy and deserving of this. You actually have to genuinely believe that this person could love you in the ways that you deserve to be loved. That's a really tough pill to swallow when you're just used to not having that. So is the action step to build a foundation of self-love? Like, is that the really obnoxious solution to, hey, you're chasing these guys who are giving you these high highs and low lows? When you consistently want that person that's unattainable, you're self-abandoning. you're not actually taking care of your wants, needs, and desires. You're not sitting in that space to say, well, this is what matters to me. You're so focused on a they going to choose me that you haven't chosen yourself. And so when we constantly go for that dynamic, it's because that's safe and familiar. Dr. Scott said it really well. He said, imagine that you're sitting in a chair and you keep reaching, reaching, reaching, reaching, reaching, to try to get that other person, but you're no longer supported by the chair anymore because you're overextending so heavily. And so that's what we do. We self-abandoned and you don't even have the support for yourself. There's no one home. That's why we focus on the other person.

So we got to, the focus shouldn't be on the people that you're seeking out even. It should really be on yourself first. Anytime, anytime somebody comes and says, why doesn't he do this? I'll instantly say, what does I say about you? Always. I always turn it and I'm like, what is it math? Okay, so if I told you why he didn't do that, you're going to come with me with 10 more questions, but why didn't he do that? Because why questions are intellectualization.

As Britt Franco says, reframe why to I don't like. Okay, so why isn't he calling me? I don't like that he's not calling me. Because if I said, why isn't he calling me? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not him. I don't have a crystal ball. He's the movies. He's with his friends. He's doing this. But versus I don't like that he's not calling me. Okay, what don't you like about it? I feel like I'm not a priority. Okay. Can we talk about that? It gets us more to understanding ourselves more.

I love that. Okay, sex on the first date. I did it. I did it too. A lot of people believe, and I think this goes back into the chase conversation that we're having, that if you have sex on the first day, it's never going to lead to a lasting relationship.

It's all about intentions. It is nothing to do with when you sleep with somebody. First date, here's another hot take. Talk about race, religion, whatever's important. You don't have to talk about all of it. But let's say if religion's super important to you, do not wait six months to bring that up. I have clients that they're like, I'm 39.

I want children like tomorrow. And I'm like, then you need to, when you're on a date, tell people, hey, I'm really intentional. My timeline is I really want to have a kid within the next year. Okay, a question about that. Because I've said that to my friends. And they say, well, I want to give the person something to latch on to first. I want to show them who I am. Make them fall in love with me a little bit, which is why I'll wait a little bit to bring that up.

What would you say to that? It's a bait and switch. You're not being authentic with this person. You're trying to show up as this thing to get this person alike you, but then midway, what you're soft partnering them? By the way, whammy, because that's a huge fucking whammy. It's one thing to be like, oh, I want to get them to know before I talk about my anxiety. Yeah, sure, fine.

You don't have to like spill that out. But if you have non-negotiables, you're just wasting more of your time. Let me get them to fall in love with me first. And then this person's going to want to have children with you? But what if they don't want kids at all? What if that's like not even a blip on their screen? I've had guys that are like, oh, I just got a vasectomy. And it's like, oh, I'm glad I fucking asked because you don't even want that.

So then what? I'm going to waste six months and find out. To me, what your friends are doing is, choose me. I'm going to self-abandoned so that you choose me first, and then I'll come back in my body and tell you what I want. That's called manipulation. So you're trying to manipulate the situation to be exactly what you want it so that you can control the outcome by manipulating someone to fall for you and then being like, by the way, I want kids or I want to get married next year. Well, that's not being very authentic, is it? Talk about what's important to you.

You know, I've spitfire every question on the first date. I've asked Ryan before. I'm like, what made you want to go out with me again after our first date? And he was like, the questions you asked. He was like, you were not holding back. You were vulnerable with me. He's like, you didn't overshare. But he was like, you were at no problem talking about what is it you want, just non-negotiables.

And then we hooked up. If we didn't hook up, I don't think we would have seen each other again. He's a very closed-off person. He's very stoic at first. And he's super goofy and ridiculous once you get to know him. So when we first met, I was like, I'm not really then into him. I was like, he's okay. He's just like banter.

Wait, so why did you sleep with him? Well, so. I thought he was cute, but I was like, he's okay. But then we went out for a hike for like three hours. And after he said, listen, And there's no pressure, but if you want, I'd love to take you to dinner. And if so, let's go back to mine, like, we'll change quickly and then we'll head out. And I remember just stopping.

And in that moment, I remember thinking, you could say this guy, no, because you're not feeling a spark. But I actually had a good, that's a nice conversation with him. I'd be curious to explore the conversation a little bit more. So when we went back to his house, he changed, all of a sudden he came out and I was like, oh, well, he's a lot cuter than I thought he was on the hike. And so I just, like, casually laid on his bed waiting for him. And he, like, in my head, I was like, well, if I never see this good again,

this will be fun. When we went to dinner, I started to see that like goofiness. And I was like, oh, that you do have the banter. You just closed down. If I had just gone on that hike and been like, okay, see ya, I wouldn't have seen another part of him. And I'm not saying people have to hook up with their partner on the first date. I'm just saying it's not a death wish. But here is the reality. I didn't have expectations on the outcome. After dinner, I was like, well, if I never see this guy again, that was fun. I made a decision as a woman from a place of empowerment because that's something I wanted to do. If you want to do that or don't, I respect whatever your decision is. But the decision can't be made on I'm not going to sleep with them because they need to prove it to me because you're

gamifying things. But I also think it's just about if you do want to sleep with someone, own the fact that it might not work. Understanding the full comprehension of, okay, if I sleep with this person, there is a possibility they will not contact me that gives you the agency to make a choice from a place of empowerment. And then, okay, am I good with that? And if not, then don't do it. Do you think that sleeping with somebody decreases the possibility they will contact you later because they've gotten the prize that you are trying to have them chase. Or does that go back to our chasing conversation, which is if they do not contact you later because you've slept with them, that's probably somebody who's seeking those dopamine hides and probably somebody you don't want to be

with in the first place. I think it's about intentions and the conversations and the communication you have and the confidence that you have when you're entering in it of, yeah, okay, so if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, that's okay. I'm still going to go on. versus my fucking life ends and I'm a slut. We don't need to shame and blame. We don't need to add a narrative onto our decisions. But no, I don't think that it's a death wish to hook up with somebody on the first date.

I think you'll find out their intentions relatively quickly, but here's the other reality. A lot of women, after they sleep together, it becomes this hyper fixation. And if that's the case, please don't do it. I would rather you wait. I'd rather you just tell somebody like, hey, I want to go slow.

Take it as slow as you need if that's what helps you show up sustainably. I love that. When you said, we have to leave room for things to grow, I thought you meant like in terms of the sex. Not in terms of the penis. He's a growing out of shower. I thought you meant in terms of the sex because another thing that I hear from people all the time is like the sex wasn't good on the first date.

Does that mean we're not sexually compatible? And I want to be like, oh my gosh, absolutely not. My husband and I have the best sex that we have ever had in our life. We've been together a really long time. And that's because over those years we've learned to communicate better. And communication as my friends Vanessa and Zander, they're sex therapist as any sex therapist. I will tell you, is the foundation for a solid sex life. And of course, like, if you're having amazing sex out the gate, that's a bonus. That's not the expectation because you don't have

that foundation of communication yet. If it's not skies, rockets, and flight the first time, that can grow. A hundred percent. And you can talk about it. Talk about it. Anybody who's out there and they're having sex in their first, second, third, fourth day early, in your first six months of your relationship, I'm like, you have so much phenomenal sex ahead of you. And I'm so excited for you and you do not even know about it yet, you know? Because we're all just there to have the best time possible. Our goals are the same. And so it's like, oh, if you give me information that will help me achieve my goal, that is amazing. Thank you so much for that information. But I just, I want to caution people to not judge. I guess a hot take I have is the sex on the first date does not

equal the sex in the relationship. But if you have bad sex on the first day, it's okay. And it could still end up being a phenomenal relationship. And to your point, on the flip side, just because you have great sex on the first date. I have had that where, oh my God, I, like, I couldn't get enough for this person. And then I found out their personality. And then I dated them for two months. And then when they touched me two months, I was like, don't even fucking look at me like that. Or worse, they have like an awful personality, but you're like, the sex is great. So I don't want to leave. And you're like, well, is the sex great because you have this like sparky trauma response? Or is the sex great because they're listening to you and caring about you?

Usually it's because of the former of like, usually what it gives it away is that grave discrepancy between, when I'm with them, everything's amazing. But then when I'm not, I'm so anxious. And you're like, okay, so the pendulum is swinging way too severely, which shows me, you're only okay when you're with them because you feel chosen because they're there. Versus when you're not and you feel like you're being abandoned. When there's too much of a severity between it, again, it goes back to kind of that black and white.

We don't want high highs low lows. We don't want peaks and valleys. We want consistency. And that's okay. Your sex life can take its shape. Oh, but yeah, anybody listening, you got so many orgasms to come. It's going to be great. As you evolve and get to know your body and your partner's body, toys, maybe you watch something together.

Oh, music, right? All of these things can add to the experience and make it even better over time. 100%. Okay, I have a million more, but we are out of time. So we'll have to do a part two at some point because we just have like so much more we could get into. But can you tell us a little bit in your own words about your show, anything else that you want to spotlight? Thanks, dude. I'm really appreciative and I'm really, really excited to have you on the Sabrina Zohar show and to be on the Luzumny podcast. So thank you for having me. You guys can check me at the Sabrina Zohar Show. about dating, anxiety, and doing the work to heal. Formerly known as do the work, but I got a cease and desist, so I had to change the name. That was fun.

So yeah, it's called The Sabrina Zohar Show. And you can check it out. You can find me on the socials. Sabrina Zohar on Insta and TikTok or the Superna Zohar show on Instagram and YouTube. And just, yeah, I have a new course out that's been really route at breakup course. And we have a foundation course. And just my goal is to really help people get out of their own way and heal so that they can find the love that they truly fucking deserve. Because I think every single person and that's listening is so worthy, so beautiful, so deserving.

but I can't be the only one that sees that. I love that. You're awesome. Thanks. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. That's all for this episode of the Liz Moody podcast. If you love this episode, one of the best ways that you can support the pod is by sending a link to your friends, your family, your partner, your coworkers, you name it. You're helping grow the podcast and you're helping the people you love change their lives.

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of the Liz Moody podcast. Oh, just one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.