The Liz Moody Podcast - How I Got My Dream Job—What It’s REALLY Like To Be A NYTimes Best-Selling Novelist & Magazine Writer with Andi Bartz

Episode Date: September 15, 2021

We are kicking off a brand new series today called “How I Got My Dream Job.” It’s built on the idea that wellness encompasses feeling our best in every part of our lives, and our careers make up a huge portion of that. My hope with these episodes is that they’ll both demystify and maybe deglamorize quote unquote dream jobs a bit while also highlighting the behind the scene awesome elements that the public is typically less privy to. And of course, there’ll be plenty of pragmatic advice, whether you want to actually pursue the career or not—on this episode, for instance, we talk a lot about how to kickstart any creative process, dealing with jealousy and a surprisingly positive take on procrastination. My guest today is Andi Bartz, the author of NYtimes best-seller and Reese’s Book Club pick We Were Never Here, as well as The Herd and The Lost Night, all of which you can find wherever books are sold. What it’s really like to work your way up the ranks of the NY magazine world Her advice for anyone who wants to work in editorial The less glamorous parts of travel writing that no one talks about Exactly how to pitch travel articles The top advice she’d give to people wanting to freelance write The trick she uses to actually complete her writing each day An inside look at her creative process How she silences her self-critic to actually create art Her surprisingly positive take on procrastination What happened behind the scenes to get her books optioned by Mila Kunis and Molly Simms/Netflix and selected for Reese’s Book Club What it actually feels like to become a NYTimes best-seller The surprising thing no one shares about your dreams coming true How much money (like, real figures!) she makes as a best-selling novelist and how much she made in her magazine career How she deals with jealousy Were you surprised about anything Andi shared about novel or magazine writing? Do you agree with our Emily Nagoski theory about creativity? We’d love to know so screenshot as you’re listening and tag us on Instagram—I’m @lizmoody and Andi is @andibartz. PS: My Patreon is live! You can join Green Smoothie Society and get access to ALL of my green smoothie recipes and advice AND you can subscribe to A Very Moody Morning, my brand new morning show podcast, which drops once weekly and features casual, fun convo, super intimate Q&As, and more. Get all the deets at patreon.com/lizmoody. This episode is sponsored by Kyoto Botanicals, makers of my favorite CBD. You can get a whopping 25% off your order (AND they always have free shipping!) by using the code “HEALTHIERTOGETHER” at kyotobotanicals.com. This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley, who make incredibly high quality supplements. If you’d like to check out their Turmeric Complex, Vitamin C, Neuroeffect, or any of Paleovalley’s other amazing products, head over to paleovalley.com and use the code LIZM for 15% off. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a cookbook author and long-time journalist. We are kicking off a brand-new series today called How I Got My Dream Job. It's built on the idea that wellness encompasses feeling our best in every part of our lives, and our careers make up a huge portion of that. My hope with these episodes is that they'll both demystify and maybe de-glamorize, quote-unquote, dream jobs a bit, while also highlighting the behind-the-scenes awesome elements that the public is typically less privy to.

And of course, there will be plenty of pragmatic advice, whether you want to actually pursue the career or not. On this episode, for instance, we talk a lot about how to kickstart any creative process, dealing with jealousy, and a surprisingly positive take on procrastination. My guest today is Andy Bartz, the author of New York Times bestseller

and Reese's Book Club pick, We Were Never Here, as well as The Herd and The Lost Night, all of which you can find wherever books are sold. I met Andy back when we were both magazine editors in New York, and we talk a lot about the realities of the magazine world in this episode, including the less glamorous parts of travel writing that no one talks about and our advice for anyone who wants to work in the editorial world or pitch freelance articles.

Then we get into novel writing. I loved this conversation so much. It was psychological, philosophical, and asked a lot of questions about who we are and why we do what we do, which is actually one of the things that I love about. about Andy's book so much. They're filled with as many conversation starters as they are incredible plot twists. Andy was just so open and thoughtful and lovely. She shared how much money she made as an editor and makes now as an author, like with real numbers, how she silences her self-critic to actually create art, what happened behind the scenes to get her books optioned by Mila Koonis

and Molly Sims and Netflix and selected for Reese's book club. The surprising thing that no one shares about your dreams coming true and so much more. I would love to hear your thoughts on the episode. Were you surprised about anything Andy shared about novel or magazine writing? Do you agree with our Emily Nagoski theory about creativity? We would love to know. So screenshot as you're listening and tag us on Instagram, I am at Liz Moody and Andy is at Andy with an eye, Bart.

As always, if you know anyone who would love this episode, I personally feel like it would be a great one just to have discussions about with a friend. please send them the link so that they can join the HTFam. And if you were sent this link by someone, remember to hit that subscribe button. We have new episodes dropping every single Wednesday. That feels so good to say. We're doing every single week now with amazing topics coming up like the neuroscience of anxiety, how to actually dress cute.

I'm excited for that one. I really need it. My first edition of skincare sessions where I ask a dermatologist about all of the crazy treatments for gorgeous skin that I somehow only heard about this year and so much more. And if you have anyone that you would love to hear from on a future episode of how I got my dream job, let me know and I will do my best to get them on. All right, let's get into the episode.

Here's how Andy Bartz got her dream job. Andy, I really appreciate you taking the time to join me today. It's like, it's been so fun watching. I mean, I already knew you were like a badass editor and journalist, but I feel like I've gotten like this really cool front row seat to watching your book. career take off and it's just skyrocketed and it's so fun and now I have like people who don't know I know you will be like oh my gosh this is my favorite author I read all of her books and I'm like are you messing with me because you know that I know her or is this like genuine and they're like oh my god

I had no idea that you know her her books are just so incredible uh I love that and tell them thank you on my behalf but yeah I mean likewise it's been you were already a star when I knew you but it's just been so fun watching such amazing stuff happen with your recipe development, your brand, your smoothie stuff, your podcast. Like, you are just such a rock star. And I'm just so honored to be asked on. Well, thank you. Okay. So let's start at the beginning. This is going to be all about, like, how to get your dream job, what the behind the scenes are of these dream jobs that we kind of pedestalize as society. So going back to the beginning, when did you first know that you wanted to be a writer? It's such a great question. And I, when I, when I, when I,

I was little, I apparently, I found a diary not too long ago where in the beginning there was a questionnaire and it was like, you know, my favorite's not my best friend, the grade I'm in, whatever. And one of them was like what I'm going to be when I grow up. And I wrote author. And so apparently even when I was little, this was a dream of mine. You know, I loved reading. I loved like writing poetry and making little short stories and that kind of thing. And then in high school, I think I started to get more practical and, you know, the writing was sort of a fun thing on the side. And then in college, I discovered journalism and I discovered magazine editing in particular. And I just loved it and set this new goal.

Completely forgot about the writing fit. And I was like, I'm going to be one of those editors and chiefly's in their 20s. And that became my new goal. So arbitrary, so random. But, yeah, so I sort of like hardcore pursued magazine editing for a while and forgot about it. And then, you know, I graduated in 2008. And so to make a long story short, like, I did get to work at a number of really great magazines, but they were all sort of like collapsing underneath me.

It was like that scene in an action movie when, like, you know, they're like jumping from like one rock to another. And the rocks like exploding as they leave it. And so towards the end of that, I just decided to start writing fiction, working on a book project for me so that I could have something that, like, no one could take away for me. and that, you know, couldn't randomly explode like a rock I'm standing on. Weird metaphor. It's so interesting. So I have a lot of follow-up questions about that. Like, one, do you think of the magazine?

Because you still write not a lot, but like occasionally for magazines, do you think it is, you know, a post-disaster pile of rubble now? Or do you think it's finding its footing in a different way? Or what do you think about the magazine industry at present? God, it's a huge question. On the one hand, I think it's, I think magazines are still doing amazing stuff. There's still great content coming out of them. But I'm such an old soul and I love that like print product and the feel of a matte paper, you know, mat paper in my hands.

And I mean, to give you the very quick overview, I worked at glamour, self, fit pregnancy, natural health, Martha Stewart's whole living. None of those is in print anymore, not one. Wow. Actually, fit pregnancy sort of got restarted by a different public. sure, but it folded while I was there. So the track record's not great. You're really a print lover. But I think, you know, different journalistic outlets are doing interesting things.

And hopefully, you know, magazines as an idea aren't going to go anywhere. But I just think that that idea of the glamorous, I was in love with the idea of, like, the glamorous editor-in-chief with the town car and the housing allowance. And, like, that is dumb. That's gone. That doesn't exist anymore. I think a lot of the... I mean, there's still like a lot of perks, I think, in editorial, particularly if you just like free stuff,

but like free little stuff, not like free big stuff. But like if you want all of the free skincare you could ever want, I think that still exists, but there aren't the same perks you'd see in like the devil wears prada anymore. Exactly. Like that era has ended. And I came in, you know, I interned in like 2006 at Condonast and I still saw it. I saw the waiting town car. and by the time I actually entered the workforce in 2008, it was like, you know, one second

before a hiring freeze. And like, it was like first they came for our, you know, expensive lunches. And then they came for our this and that. And like, it just, you know, it doesn't look, it doesn't look the same way that that I perceived in the mid-2000s. And I can't even imagine what it was like in sort of the heyday of Cunning asked. Oh, my God. I can't even imagine.

No, I literally can't even imagine. So if somebody is listening and their dream job was editorial, is there anything that you would tell them in terms of pursuing that as a career path? I would definitely say to be flexible with what editorial might mean. I've worked with a lot of people who I went through so many foldings that I became like the Sherpa. I was like the sort of like wise sage who was like, you'll be fine, little editorial assistants who are panicking. You know, you're going to land on your feet. smart and scrappy. And there were people who just held, you know, talk about pedestalizing

stuff. People held print magazines as like the thing. And they were like, I don't want to work in digital. I don't want to work in content for a brand. Like print is just where my heart is. And one by one I watched as they gave that up and went somewhere else and just absolutely loved it and learned so much. And I think there's definitely opportunities to, for example, work in content for a brand where you might actually have more of that, quote, glamorous experience, at least in the sense that you're going to have big budgets and can pursue really interesting and meaningful pieces that might not be something that you can do at print products anymore because the budgets are shrinking.

And also, like, digital, a lot of people were scared of digital and then they would get into it and they would just love, like, the quick pace and the, you know, instant feedback and being able to look at numbers and, like, do interactive stuff. stuff and hear from readers right away. So I would just say like figure out what it is you love about editorial and and sort of have an open mind for how you might be able to sort of fulfill those goals in, you know, in your job or outside of your job. I totally love that advice. I think that especially the brand side, I think people feel like to work for a brand is selling out. But I think it's, it's, I mean, it can be. It depends on the brand for sure. But I do think that it, it, you get, you have a

salary that you can live on usually if you work for a brand, which is not true in many editorial jobs. And I think you can have like a lot of creative freedom too. So I think that's really good advice. One of the coolest things that I think you do, which you know this already because I picked your brain about it aggressively, is travel writing. I think travel writing is like one of those dream, dream gigs where you're just like, wait, so I can get free trips to places and then get to like tell.

the stories of these places. And I also think it's really cool how you've had your travel writing now influenced, or I assume it influenced, we were never here. Like, you can see this. It almost feels like you took a travel piece and mixed it in with like a thriller murder. Murder. True. It's dead bodies. Yeah. I was like, I'm 30 pages in and a lot of people have died already. Yes. Yes. Which I hope is not true on your normal trips. But how did the travel writing get started. So I had worked in editorial for six or eight years, something like that, and I was laid off on my position. I was at the fifth pregnancy of natural health as the number two editor. And so I thought that like all the times before, I would just freelance for a little bit while I applied for jobs and then I would go

somewhere new. And little did I know that that would be my last full-time job for at this point five plus years. And it's because, you know, at that level, there's just fewer jobs. And it's, you know, Like there was just a smaller sort of pool to pick from and I was picky about I'm not going to take a step back in my You know title. I'm not going to be a senior editor after I was a senior editor at three places and then be worked up to being a deputy editor So basically I wound up freelancing for for a career and that was a mix of writing for magazines and Writing for brands and doing some freelance editing and consulting and a whole mix of things and at the same time I was traveling as much as I could because I had the sort of ability to. I was self-employed.

I could work from anywhere. I started dating somebody who lived in France. And so I was back and forth with him, or we would go on trips together. And it was just a passion of mine. And it was like this sort of aha, actually duh, moment when I was like, wait, I should be like writing about travel instead of like doing it and freelancing.

And so I started working really. hard on like the networking piece of it because I didn't really have any connections in the travel writing space yet and I started you know figuring out who the editors were reaching out connecting with them on social media or via email studying the publications all the kind of basic you know one-on-one stuff for you know breaking into any kind of freelancing and I was really lucky I landed a couple pieces right around the same right around the same time that were in pretty prestigious outlets. One was Wall Street Journal and one was Vogue.com. And so when it came out, I think it was the same week, these two travel pieces, like suddenly all the PR people in the world

began reaching out that, you know, with different destinations and ideas and stories and you need to know about this hotel, you won't believe what's happening in this city. And so, you know, then I started meeting with them and getting lunch with them and discussing ideas. And so it really was my focus for the last few years and um i was traveling a ton COVID obviously has shut that down for the time being and it's it's it is a dream job absolutely i love it I miss it I um just had some of these experiences that it was like I cannot believe this is my life I am like on you know a beautiful zodiac zipping around like a lake in Italy sipping champagne like, does it get any better than this?

Probably sipping Prosecco. And there's absolutely moments of that. But I also, people don't like to hear this. And so I don't say it in any sort of ungrateful way. But it is extremely different from being paid to go on vacation. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. Like, destinations don't want to, you know, lose. So while you're there, you're not, you're probably not paying to

stay at these hotels or do some of these activities. So it's expensive for whoever's hosting you, which every once in a while it's the outlet that pays you, but most of the time it's a property or a destination like a city. So they want you to pack, to be there as short a time as possible and for you to do as much as you possibly can while you're there so that they feel like you're getting a ton of stuff to write about. So it basically works out, I mean, to give you an example, to Uganda for six days. It was maybe the most incredible trip of my life. But we did essentially a three-week itinerary in six days. Whoa. And it's nuts. It's work and it's very different from being on vacation where you can kind of sleep in and do whatever you want and, you know,

make changes on the fly to your itinerary. And there's been a few times that I've been able to invite a plus one. And so I've brought a friend and literally Liz, every time I've done this, by the end of the trip, the friend, and the friend does not have the same requirements as me. They are chilling by the pool while I am doing yet another hotel tour or watching a presentation or schmoozing with, you know, schmoozing with people from the, you know, local tourism bureau. Even then, by the end of the trip, they're like, oh, I don't want your job.

I take it back. I would not want to do this. I just want to, you know, go on vacations when I want to go on vacation, do whatever I want to do. and that's that's not what travel writing is so I think it's incredible and really fun if it's a passion of yours and if you're willing to sort of sacrifice like self-care basically to do this and to see places but it is yeah mentally and physically and honestly emotionally exhausting you're often you're on these really intense tours and itineraries with other people you haven't

chosen sometimes you don't get along um sometimes you know there's There's politics of if you try to skip one part of it, then you can, you know, sort of get on the bad side of an important PR contact. It's a lot that make it very different from going on vacation. All that said, for me, it's 100% worth it personally. You mentioned that the hotels or the, you know, tourism board or whatever is usually the one footing the bills for this. I think people don't really understand.

So like they read an article about what was the. Uganda article and what did that end up being about? So I ended up doing a handful of different articles about Uganda. I did a couple for Vogue.com about, you know, new beautiful resorts to stay in, about, you know, what to do in the cities while you're there. And then I also had a few different angles that I worked into different articles. I mean, if you do a big trip like that, you are kind of expected to produce these articles afterward that are in prestigious enough outlets. that give them enough ink. And it's also this sort of like weight on your shoulders afterward where like the PR people are

kind of like, we just spent, you know, $20,000 on you. Like, when is it coming? When are we going to see results? So when you usually do a trip, do you usually like come up with a destination? Like I want to go to, I remember you into like Georgia at one point? Like I want to go to Georgia and then will you sort of reach out to your PR network or is it usually somebody, a hotel, a brand is pitching you and then you go and then figure out a way to incorporate that hotel or that brand into some piece for some outlet? How does the story

take place and how does sort of the structure of the trip take place? I think it's different for, it's kind of, it can be all of the above. These different situations have happened. And I've even had the case, the rare case where I, you know, have a conversation with the PR team and get a great idea out of it and I place that idea with an outlet and then maybe the outlet is putting part of the bill or I get to go somewhere because like in order to report this story. But much more common is that the outlet, excuse me, the outlet's not involved until after I'm back from the trip. And so it's like the hotel or something like that will pitch me and say like, oh, we're, you know, we're either planning a group trip to, I don't know,

Switzerland or you know and here are the dates or this destination or this property is looking to host journalists on assignment. Would you be interested in coming out sometime this fall? And yeah, so most of the time I go and I experience it and from that I get my ideas and then I am able to go home and pitch like crazy and it's really a gamble on the, you know, PR team's side that they're hoping something will come out of it and I won't stop until I am have placed an assignment essentially, I kind of become a PR person, you know, on the other end. And it can be really stressful and there can be times just know when it's getting packed to me.

And, you know, I want to write a good story. I don't want to just, you know, throw something onto like a blog that doesn't pay and that doesn't have any prestige. And then occasionally, either because the destination requires it or I just have a really great idea without even seeing the place, I will, I will be on. assignment, quote unquote, where I'll have pitched something to an editor. And they've said, yes, they call it a guaranteed assignment even though like nothing is guaranteed. You know this in journalism. Like at any moment that editor could like quit or be fired and then I would be in the water. But they say like, yes, we like this idea. You can go write it. And then I'm sort of like reporting that while I'm actually out there. Have you ever been somewhere and been like,

I don't have any ideas for like a new unique. take on this place? Like what should I possibly write about? Yes. And it's a horrible feeling. Yes. And I think from that I've gotten, I've learned to get more picky about like what I'll say yes to because if it's, you know, for example. Like Paris or something. Yes. I was going to say I'm going to Iceland in a few weeks with my girlfriend like on on vacation and several people have been like, oh, are you also going to do travel writing? And I'm like, you think anybody wants to pitch on Iceland right now? Like that place got big years ago. And so, you know, for me to try to find something new to say about it, every travel editor at an outlet is going to be like, nah, everyone knows about Iceland. Nothing new and exciting

there. Yeah. What do you do if you've like been on a, if you're like sitting on the boat drinking Prosecco in Italy, have you been on trips where you've sort of like agreed to this deal and not been able to come up with anything? Oh, gosh, probably. There's one trip I took shortly before COVID that I just, oh my God, like, bless them. They haven't been harassing me too much. But it involved a cruise and like, nobody wants to talk about cruises right now. Wow. Yeah. And so I'm just, there is, you know, I try to make the argument too. Like there is this like long game where I fairly recently wrote something about Uganda, even though it was four plus years ago that I was there. Like it just, I was writing a piece and it perfectly fit in. So there is sort

of this long tail of like, you know, you never know when it's going to become. when it's going to come in handy. But yes, that is something that is keeping me up at night and probably will show up in my stress dreams tonight. So thank you for that. I'm sorry. I do think it's like, like, especially if a hotel or something pays you to go somewhere and then you're like, this hotel sucks, you know, and you're just like, well, how am I? Because you're, you're trading on, I think the interesting thing about writing, especially freelance writing, is every piece of you're writing or pitching. You're trading on the relationships that you've, built with other editors. And so you don't want to sacrifice those relationships, you know,

in any way by recommending something that their readers wouldn't be excited about or making a piece feel too sponsored, you know? Exactly. And I think then the challenge can come in. I have had that experience of just like, this was, I did not like this hotel. Like, this was just not the place for me. And when that happens, generally what my focus becomes is like, how do I find a really specific angle or niche a way of looking at this that I can write about without feeling like I'm trading it on my you know journalistic expertise and like you know to give an example there was this hotel in Japan that I just in Tokyo that I just didn't I didn't like it it wasn't in the right area everything was via like these iPad touch screens and so like you just wanted to turn on the

freaking light and you were like it was like not connecting and just like I would never tell someone I know to stay here but it did have this very interesting like see-through shower that It was like in the middle of the room and you hit a button and it would become frosted. And I was like, I feel like I've started seeing this more and more where there's just like this peekaboo shower. I was there with a friend. And so it was like kind of hilarious that you can be like, okay, don't look. And so I pitched a piece tovogue.com that was about like the new trend of like peekaboo showers. And I like rounded up some other ones that, you know, really exposed you to the room or to the world.

And I was able to write about it without sort of specifically like, raving about the experience of staying there. Zach and I stayed at a place in Switzerland that had like a peekaboo toilet and we didn't figure out to like day three that you could push a button to make it opaque. And so we would just be like we would send the other person to like the corner of the room whenever we needed to use the bathroom. We'd be like, all right, I'm going to go behind this clear glass door and use the bathroom now.

And then on day three we're like, oh, I understand. It's like, why was that a design choice? Like of all the upgrades you can make, who is like, you know what this room needs? It'll be so sexy if you can just see you. Can't wait for someone to see me when I'm on the toilet. So hot, so hot. If somebody was maybe in the place where they feel like they're traveling a lot and they wanted to start pitching, like, unique, strong angles for travel. Obviously, you have so many connections in the editorial world.

But is there any advice you would give for somebody who maybe isn't taking the press trips but just finds themselves in Uganda and wants to like pitch something cool? Yeah, that's actually a really great thing. And somehow it's like the New York Times is known for, they don't really work with writers who take press trips because they think it messes with your editorial bias, which I have my own opinions about what that means, about who gets to write for the New York Times Travel section and their backgrounds.

But regardless, absolutely does not need to have been a press trip for you to have discovered a really cool angle. I would just start, I think one of the most important things is to start reading the outlets that you want to pitch. There's travel magazines. There's travel and leisure kind of Nuss Traveler. Newspapers have travel sections, all sorts of online outlets. And just start sort of noticing what makes a fresh and unique story.

I think the mistake a lot of people make when they first try to get into travel writing is that they just want to write like guides or they just want to say like, here's what to do in Austin, Texas. And like there is a value in that, but like that's not going to be. fresh and new and unique and interesting enough. So look for trends, look for stuff that's like brand new. Look for stuff that, you know, you're noticing that could be a destination, but that no one but local newspapers is really written about yet. Maybe you'd be able to write about it for, you know, a wider audience. And yeah, so really, really read the outlets that you want to

pitch. If you've never pitched something before, there's like amazing resources online for sort of how to, you know, craft a pitch and what it should look like. You want to look professional. and yeah I think social media is a really awesome way to connect like find first of all and connect with editors who often have pitch guidelines so I mean a really simple thing is just like go to Twitter and search for the outlet and pitch me and you'll very frequently find an editor who even has their email right there in their bio or in the tweet and yeah just start sort of getting ready for rejection which is also a big part of it I also know some people who to start a blog for travel and it's not necessarily going to blow up. It's not necessarily going to get them invited on press trips.

I mean, you are the first to know. It's like a huge endeavor to actually make that, you know, your big thing. But it can be really helpful for just demonstrating to the editor. Like, look, this is my unedited writing. I'm a good writer. I can express things in a fun way. I have a voice. If you can take photos as well, like look at the photo.

photos that I use with my blog, that can really make you a more attractive person for them to bring on because they won't have to pay for photography separately. So if it's something that you love doing and you're noticing cool stuff anyway, it can just be a smart way to have some sort of clips that an editor can look at and say like, okay, this person kind of knows what they're doing. So you said that you started writing novels like kind of for yourself and is something that people couldn't take away from you. Did you have a sense that this could be a career for yourself that somebody couldn't take away from you or more of a creative thing for yourself that nobody could take away from you? I think it started out as both. I mean, you can't be a professional writer

for years, which I was at that point, without having some feeling of like, when I finish this, I will try to make money off it. I mean, it's already like writing, like, you know, we talk about writing an article on spec and how we hate doing it as freelancers. That's when you write the whole thing before and outlet decides that they'll take it. And like, this is like writing 100,000 words on spec before you see in time. So it is the most annoyed. I don't understand it. Can I do? This is like a minor rant, but it is crazy to me that you can sell nonfiction books based on a proposal and that fiction books, you have to write the whole thing. I mean, I'm sure you don't anymore, but like for first time author, certainly you have to write the whole freaking thing before they're willing to buy it. And I'm

I could certainly write like three chapters in an outline and you could decide if you wanted this, you know? Totally. Totally. It's so it's nuts. And it's just, it doesn't make sense because in advance is supposed to be the idea. An advance. We're giving you an advance so that you have money to live on while you write this.

And yet for fiction, we just don't do that. And instead you have to have the immense privilege of, you know, time and investment to do all that up front. So it's, it's nuts. But if you want to go the fiction route and you want to be traditionally published, then, yeah, you need to do the entire thing up front. And I think I was doing it for me, but I also had a pretty, I had friends who were published authors. And so that was like part of the motivation. I saw other people doing it. So it didn't feel like this totally unachievable thing to see myself, you know, getting an agent, getting a book to y'all working with an actual publisher.

But you can't, I felt like you can't really be so worried about that when you're writing it. I mean, one of the best pep talks I got from my friend Leah Conan, who is a thriller writer and writes really awesome thrillers and wrote a lot of young adult before that. She gave me this pep talk early on when I just started The Lost Night and I was having this crisis of confidence because I was like, you know, I'm writing about like hipsters and people hate hipsters and like no one's going to buy this book and like, why would anyone want to read this. And she was like, listen, take off your editor hat, take off your will this sell hat, take off your every other hat, and just write, the only thing you can do is right. None of this

can be discussions that you have until after you've written the entire thing. And she was 100% right. So I feel like that's a pep talk I've given in so many forms to so many people. So yes, if this is something that you plan to take in that direction, then it is smart to have some sense of like what does it what does it take to sell a book and that's a question that really means what does it take to write a book that you know succeeds on a plot and character level that falls neatlyish within a genre um those sorts of things I think it's going to have in the back of your mind as you're nailing down an idea but you cannot get too long down in that when you're just supposed to be writing because until you've written the entire book none of those things matter

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like the name of this podcast. Again, that's K-Y-O-T-O-T-A-N-I-C-A-L-S-K-O-B-O-T-A-L-S-K-O-B-T-O-B-T-O-B-T-L-N-E-L-B-T-E-G-B-G. I cannot wait for you, I remember when you were at MB-G, were you sort of like part-time freelancing, part-time noveling? Yeah, exactly. So I think I actually started it when I was still at the pregnancy and natural health. We have one staff doing two magazines. So I was working on it with in fall 2014 and then a friend was like, hey, why don't we do nano-rivo together? That's national formal writing month, November, when a bunch of people sign up online

and commit to writing 50,000 words in a month, which is about how. half of a local length novel, two thirds to a half. And so I was like, yeah, let's do it. It works up to, I think about 1,700 words a day. And I did it. And I was so proud of myself at the end. I had 50,000 words. And there was just sort of some mental, some psychological, like, subcost fallacy that kicked on where I was like, well, I can't stop working on this now. I've, like, done so much work already. I've already invested, like, all these hours and I have a few thousand words. I felt like I was, you know, like two thirds of the way. to the finish line when in reality I was like on step two out of like eight million.

But, you know, sometimes you need to like, fool yourself and lie to yourself to do crazy things like write a novel. So, so yeah, I kept working on it from there. I first had another freelance job and they, a freelance, yeah, it was a freelance editing job at Hearst and they were like, you could either work three days a week or you could do two weeks. weeks on, two weeks off. And I was like, oh, let's do two weeks on two weeks off so that I can really focus on my novel in the other times, you know, in the off weeks in addition to my freelancing. And then, you know, I just kind of did my best to keep moving forward and set like artificial deadlines for myself so that, because without them, I would never actually accomplish anything.

And it's still, which is still absolutely true. I have so many fake deadlines on my calendar just to get stuff done. But yeah, so I was just sort of balancing it with freelance writing and setting these arbitrary goals of like by, you know, Thanksgiving, I want to have this draft done. Like, by this date, I want to have it sent to my data readers, which are other friends who are also writers. And, yeah, I just kept doing that.

And I think when I was at Mind Body Green, I was getting into the querying stage. Yeah, I think you were a querian. Yeah. So I had already worked on it for about, two years at that point. And Liz, I don't know that I ever told you this, but I basically have you to think for the fact that I got an agent because you told me to send you my query and you forwarded it to a friend who's an agent. And that agent was like, oh, this isn't for me,

but there's a new agent at my agency who might be interested. And she forwarded it to her and she read it, loved it, was like, got me out of the, got me on the phone. And was like, I would love to represent you. And once you've gotten that one offer, you can go back to everyone else that you can say, you know, hey, I have an offer on the table, but as a professional courtesy, I'd be happy to give you another week if you'd like to, you know, check if you want to throw your name into the ring. And so I very much have you to thank because I was able to kind of shake the tree pretty

quickly. And I had a few offers of representation come out of that and started working with my agent from that. So, yeah, I don't think I've ever really like fully paid to you for that. No, that's awesome. I'll take royalty checks if you're, you know, interested in that. You can track me down wherever I am that month and, you know, introduce me to Reese Witherspoon. That's fine.

The artificial deadline thing is interesting to me because I think people have different stances on creativity and whether you make it happen or you try to inspire it happen. or you wait for it to happen or that. So I'm just like, I'm curious what your take is. Like, do you sit down and force creativity to come every day? Or is there something you do to inspire it? Or do you wait for it? I feel so strongly that creativity is a habit and it's a muscle that you exercise.

I feel this so strongly. If I waited until I was inspired, I would just never write. I would never complete books. I would have to complete a scene, let alone entire book. looks like four, which is, you know, the number that I have now written. And I think for me, getting stuff done means setting these artificial deadlines, or in this case, now they're real deadlines. Now I have actual, like, a date, you know, the editor gives me a date nine months in the future that I need to deliver a manuscript to her. And so then I work backwards. Okay, I know I need

this much time for my own revisions. I know I need this much time for my beta readers to read it. work backwards, work backwards, set a date that I need to complete the first draft. And then I use this free site called pacemaker.com. And you basically plug in like your goal, whether it's a number of words or or number of pages or whatever. And the due date. And then you can say things like, oh, I want to work less on weekends or want to work more on weekends or I'm going to block out these days to not work because I'll be on vacation

or whatever. and then it gives you your writing prescription every day. So in my case, it's like the number of however many hundreds of words I need to write every day is spit out. And for me, my job is to sit my butt in my seat. And the way that I do it was with the Pomodoro method. So I set a timer for 20 minutes and without distractions I write. And sometimes I write complete trash.

And sometimes I am so stuck on a scene that I'm. I have to open up another document. I'm keeping like a sort of running journal diary of free writing. And I'll jump over to that and I'll start to write. I am so stuck on the scene. What the hell is his character doing? Why is she da-da-da? And that still counts.

That's still part of my 20 minutes because my fingers are moving on the keyboard. And I just until the timer goes off for 20 minutes, I am writing. And I, you know, 20 minutes, when 20 minutes is up, I take a five or 10 minute break. I just repeat that process until I hit the daily work count goal. And, you know, I think there's other, you know, people can, don't need to do it the exact same way. And I really respect a lot of people to like, you know, 20 or 30 minutes of writing every morning first thing.

So it's less about the word count and it's more about the time that they put in. I think that's a really valuable way to do it too, especially if you're, you know, especially if you're just working away on like your first manuscript and don't have these outside deadlines yet. But, you know, doing the work sort of inspires, you know, sort of creates this inspiration because when you're actually in a scene that all these ideas are coming, and we have this idea that, you know, you need to start on the inspiration side, but actually it's a circle. And putting in that time will also feed back into making you feel inspired. So, you know, you create inspiration by sitting down. Maybe you have a little ritual.

around it. I always like to light a candle. And that means it's writing time. And I've got my coffee next to me. And, you know, there's something to sort of drop into that space. But actually moving your fingers on the keyboard, I promise you will inspire you to know what to say. It's kind of an incredible thing. It reminds me of, I forget her last name, but Emily, something she wrote, she comes first, which is like a sex book. And she basically said that like 70% of women think that they're supposed to be like innately turned on out of nowhere and then want to have sex, but most women need to start having sex and then the desire comes from starting to have sex. And I feel like you're almost describing creativity in the same way. Like we wait for this like

flashing, you know, oh my gosh, aha moment, but actually you need to start doing the action. And then the aha moment comes from doing that action. Yes, Emily Nagoski, non-spontaneous arousal. You Speaking my language. Snap, snaps. I love her. And I never thought about that connection, but you're absolutely right. Like, it's not any less legit or, like, you know, heaven scent if it's not spontaneous. Like, you know, it's still, it can be totally thrilling, you know, and like you can still have great sex, even if you weren't just spontaneously aroused and like, you know, super into it before anything started happening.

Like, I think it's a very similar. It's a very similar process. And we should think about writing as orgasms. Love it. I'm curious because I think that one of the biggest things that gets in the way of creating creative work is our self-critic. And I think that procrastination in general is a result of perfectionism and not having your output match what you want it to be in your brain. And then so then you don't do anything at all. You're like, oh, if I can't write the novel I want to write, if I can't paint the painting, I want to write. if I can't or paint, you know, I'm not going to, I'm just not going to create something. I'm curious how you silence your self-critic. Yeah.

Yeah, there's that really amazing Ira Glass clip that I think a lot of people have heard where he talks about how like, if you're a creative person, like you probably have taste, but you might not have like the talent yet. So it's really frustrating because the stuff that you're creating doesn't live up to the level of taste that, you know, would please you. And it's frustrating and it can be paralyzing. I mean, one thing I'll say about procrastination before I answer your question, which is a great one, is I used to work at psychology today. And it's the one maxine I worked at that is still in print. But procrastination is like completely universal. Everyone thinks that they're a procrastinator.

Everyone thinks that it's like a unique problem to them. And it's actually just how humans do everything. So just store that one away that the next time you're beating your stuff. stuff up for quote unquote procrastinating. Like you and absolutely everyone is like wait. It feels like you're waiting until the last minute to do things. Wait, so is that if the fact that it's universal makes me what, is there like some sort of evolutionary advantage to it?

Is that just like a glitch or malfunctioned our human brains? You know, that I don't know. But I feel like it's probably not as it's sort of like, it's kind of like the idea of imposter syndrome. And like, I don't know how deep you want to go on this, but imposter syndrome. makes me actually really infuriated when people start talking about it because the researchers who coined the term in, I think it was the 70s or maybe the 80s, they recanted it because once they did more research, they realized that it was not universal. It's a hundred percent universal. It's not just women.

It's not just young women. It's not a syndrome at all. It's not anything wrong with you. It's just being a human. It's just part of the human condition. And so I think it's sort of silly that we have to like, you know, know, pathologize it and act like it's this terrible thing that we need to like get over or fix. What if it's just, what if like the ones we need to worry about are the ones who don't have

imposter syndrome? Because they're the weirdos when this is, you know? 100%. I think that's totally true. And I also, I love telling people like about all of my friends that, you know, outwardly have dream jobs and and appear so successful. And like they still think everybody feels like they're kind of playing the role of their job and playing the role of a grown up, like every day. Like, oh, I'm going to like wake up and pay taxes. It's like, what? Or people taking care of kids are like, somebody let me do this. Like who allowed this? And I think everybody, everybody has that. I don't not know one person. And I know a lot of like crazy

phenomenally successful people from the outside. You're like, oh my God. But like, I don't know one person who doesn't have imposter syndrome. Or I guess it can't even say that. Because I'm pathologizing it. That's funny. Who doesn't question whether they, you know, are in the same. the position to be doing what they're doing. Like, who let them do this? Right, right. We're all just like fake adulting. Like, we're all fake adults. I'm in the process of like buying a home right now and like every step of the way, I'm like, I will learn the exact next three inches I need to go. Like someone will tell me. I'll ask a lot of people questions and then I guess I'll schedule an inspection. It's very silly. But anyway, I think that was a tangent on a tangent. To go one

tangent back. I think procrastination, I don't know if it's a good thing, a bad thing, whatever. I just think we should all be kinder to ourselves about the fact that we're procrastinating because literally everyone is doing it. It's not like you uniquely are like bad or unproductive or, you know, worthless because you still have not done that thing that needs to happen eventually. You will. If it's important, you will. But to get back to the original question, remind me what the original question was. How do you? How do you? How do you. silence your own self-critic. Like how you, even when you're producing work that's crap and you're like, this is crab, you continue to still do it. Yeah. It's still a battle. It's still a battle I fight when I'm writing. And I just, a sentence comes out of my fingers.

And I am like, that is like the stupidest sentence that literally has ever been written. Like, I didn't know I could write this badly until I started writing fiction. I thought of myself was a pretty good writer. I thought I kind of had some hold on dialogues and scenes. And I started writing and I was horrified by some of the things that came out of my fingers on the laptop. And I think like all different forms of shame, I felt shame around it and what helped was sort of bringing it out into the light and talking to other people about their experiences. There is not a writer on earth who won't tell you that like parts of their first draft are terrible. Nobody gets it right on the first draft.

And the whole point is just to get something written so that you can make it shine later. And so now especially, I'm, you know, we were never here as my third book and I'm working hard on revising my fourth. I have this really nasty tendency to compare where a book is now to my published books. And not that they're, not that they're perfect, but like even I, who has seen every step of the process, look at the current Google document for book four. And I'm like, God, this sucks, especially compared to we were never here, this hardcover sitting next to me. And I have to very consciously remind myself, like, no, when you sent the first draft that we were never here to your beta readers, they and you, I knew it. We're like, this is a hot mess. And it took a ton of work, but I was capable of doing it.

And I'll do it again. So I think, you know, little mental tricks like reminding yourself, no one needs to see this but you. that's where stuff like having just board count goals or time goals can really help because you can't sit there and agonize over every sentence you know you're going to change it later you're just trying to get something down that can be really helpful just reading you know looking at interviews or going on writing Twitter where literally everybody is talking about how awful their first drafts are and how they at times absolutely hate and load the things they have written that revision process.

There's lots of great essays out there about like, you know, when you're revising, you go, you swing back and forth between thinking your book is brilliant and thinking it's the worst thing it's ever been made. It's just normal. It's normal. It's normal. It's normal. It's part of the human condition.

It is going to happen. There's a zero percent chance that like you will think that what you just wrote is great. And so just kind of going into it with that attitude. And I kind of been laughing sometimes as I'm writing these like melodramatic, awful, awful lines. and just, yeah, knowing that going in and having the sort of kindness towards yourself and towards your work and kind of a playfulness, I think just allows you to keep writing. And then there will be parts that when you write them, you're like, that was good. That felt really good writing that scene. And then there will be parts that when you're writing them, you're like, this is just agonizing.

And every sentence is hard for me to come up with. And I don't know what's happening. And I know that this writing is bad. And like, just that's going to be part of the. journey too and like the only way to get sort of like the only way out is through like the only way to get past the scene is to finish writing this freaking scene and then move on to the next one and hope that it goes a little more smoothly um so i think it's just a lot of practice and a lot of just like recognizing that that self-judgment you know my therapist always talks about parts therapy

like thank that part of you that part of you cares that sort of the inner critic uh it's looking out for you. It wants to help you. It wants you to not be shamed. It wants you to not be embarrassed. It's speaking up because it has your best interests at heart, but, you know, it's not doing any good and you can just reassure it. Like, you know, babe, I'm not going to, I'm not going to let the world see this. This is just for me. This is just going to live on this word document here. I'll fix it later. Um, you know, and much like my therapist has encouraged me to give my anxiety, like picture it as like a little little personality and and kind of speak back to it gently and kind of like, oh, anxiety.

Like I know you have my best interest to heart, but like, I don't need you, babe. We got this. I love that. Yeah, it could be helpful to do the same with your self-critic and even ask like, what's another job I can give this self-critic that's so eager? What else would you like to do? You know, what else would you like to take on as an assignment? That's interesting. So what would be like an example of something else that could take on?

Let me think about that. Because I've done it for anxiety, but let me think about this. Okay. So this part of you that is really, you know, worried about your own work, maybe that part would like to spend some time looking at other stuff of yours that you've written. Maybe it would like to go seek out stories of authors talking about their own revision process. maybe that part would just like to focus on, you know, reading stuff that is bad, but that you loved. Or like, you know, watching, just coming up with stuff that you know wasn't awesome, but that was awesome. Yeah. It's just a mental exercise, obviously, but there is something nice about imagining that energy and sort of the quality of it.

And then saying, like, how can we transmute this part, this voice? and give it a new job so that it still feels productive because it is just trying to help me and protect me. I love that. I love that so much. I'm going to try it with my anxiety too because I love that idea. I think I need to be kinder to my anxiety parts of myself. And I love that generally.

Okay, I want to talk about some of the like outwardly glamorous things. So like your newest book, we were never here. It is a New York Times bestseller now. Congratulations on that. That is so crazy. Thank you. And then it's also a Reese's book club pick. And then your previous book, was it, was Lost Night optioned by Milakounis's production company?

Or was it the herd? It was the last night that was optioned by me, LeCunis's production company. Okay. So how does this stuff happen? Like, do you just wake up one day and you're like, hey, I'm a New York Times bestseller. Or like, hey, Reese Witherspins on the phone and she'd like to talk to you about your book? Like, what is going on behind the scenes for this stuff that seems like really cool and glamorous? It is hilarious to imagine any of it just like falling into my lap. So I, when you have a literary

agent, you are sort of assigned a film agent as well. And so in my case, like my agent is with ICM. And so I got a film agent at ICM as well. And she's based in Hollywood. And her whole job is like reading books and like wheeling and dealing to find people who would like to option them. So she has been behind, you know, trying to get all of my, trying to get all of my books optioned. And I'm never totally clear on to what extent, like, there's scouts too for different, you know, production companies. And so maybe scouts are discovering stuff.

And she's also, you know, taking it out to them. So I'm not totally clear on the logistics of what happens in L.A. Everything out in L.A. is very L.A. to me. I'm like making big hand gestures as if you can see. Like out there. But somehow, yeah, people come to her and say like we would like to option this, which means we would like to have the exclusive right to try to get it made into a limited series or a movie or whatever it is. So they are optioning it as.

And so it sounds super exciting because it is in, you know, in production for TV or whatever, but it's not. So they, for a relatively small amount of money, get the exclusive rights to try to do something with it. And it's for a set amount of time. So for like the next year or two years, nobody else can try to do anything with it. And tons and tons and tons of things get options. Very, very, very, very few actually get greenlit and made. So it's sort of like, you know, you haven't won the lottery, but you've got a ticket. Like it is a step that you would need to get to actually winning.

But like the odds are still increasing. incredibly small that it will ever happen. And also, I will tell you, this is not something that I normally lead with, but like the Milakuna's option expired and they did not renew it. They weren't able to do anything with it. So now the lost night is like on option. It's just no one's doing anything with it. Interesting. Yeah, which doesn't sound super glamorous. But, you know, it's part of the game too. And actually all three of my books have been optioned, but none has had anything come from it yet. And you know, you're always helpful. I feel like the we were never here, though. Like, I feel like once you're New York Times and Reese's book club, like I feel like all of her

book club picks get made into movies eventually. Fingers crossed, but honestly, who knows? But yeah, it's very possible. At every step of the way, my film agent knows that I'm like interested in learning that side of thing and like being a Jessica Nolanol and writing screenplays. And so she's like pitched me to, you know, be involved in some way. And every time they're like, no. they are not super interested in working with writers and like I get it to a certain extent like that's their

I don't have that skill set currently why should they you know you're like I could yeah I could learn but they're like why would we fattled ourselves with you trying to do it just like you probably wouldn't hire

like a screenwriter to write the novelization of a movie or something like it's fair totally fair but yeah so it is super it's super exciting when it's announced was, it's super, you know, exciting when you had that initial call. I had the call that Milakounos

was on early on and she, like, was talking about my book and that was like top five surreal moments of my life. Yeah, that's crazy. That was super duper nuts. But, um, but yeah, whether I think I would just hear Meg from Family Guy, like being like, oh, I really love the last night. I'd be like, wow, this is my favorite cartoon character. And she's not my favorite cartoon character, but like a cartoon character and he was talking to me. Yeah, like a voice on the phone, so weird. Yeah. Yeah, and stuff like the Reese and the New York Times bestseller.

Again, I myself am not that involved. Like, I do a ton of PR stuff that they allow me to. So, for example, as you know, I worked in magazines. So, like, I'm trying to pitch essays to friends that are editors at different places and to, like, kind of place-related stuff that I can work mentions of the book into. or, you know, you and I are friends. So I'm like, hey, Liz, can I send you a copy of the book? And I'm trying to do stuff like that.

And in the meantime, you know, the Reese team, the Reese Book Club team has, I guess, their own scouts. And I have no idea what their actual process is. But I heard that it was my editor who was really instrumental in sort of championing the book and having a B one that they considered. And my understanding is that, you know, at the very end of the process, they whittle it way down. and then Reese herself makes the final call, which is very cool. Oh, that's cool. That's super cool. Yeah.

So it's pretty fantastic to actually picture her reading up. But like she and I never... Are you going to talk to her at all or no? No, no. And I will never. And that's for some reason, people have this idea of her, like my phone ringing and like, ring, ring, it's Reese. Well, I think it's when she did on her account, I think, like her publicly talking to the

camera about how great your book is. And that feels very personal. It's not just like a written out, you know, I love this book. Go read it. It felt like her. She was like, I love this book. I'm talking to the camera about how much I liked it. Yeah, that was probably the most that happened on my launch day.

So once my editor told me that it was going to be the Reese pick and I was like screaming and crying on the phone, we had to move my publication date from mid-July to August 3rd so that it would align with like their announcement for that day. Oh, interesting. the day that they announced it. And they were like, you can't tell anyone. Like, you can't, like, if it leaks and they'll pick a new pick, like, you need to not tell anyone. So then, of course, 500 people are like, why did your publication date change? And I was like, I don't know.

Publishers, am I right? So I was keeping a secret. Did you tell anybody? I mean, I told my girlfriend, oh, my girlfriend was, like, in, I was here in my office, and my girlfriend was, like, one room over in the kitchen. She heard me, like, screaming and crying. and like burst out of the room. And I was like, oh, my God.

Like, my book is going to be the August paper for the Reese's book club. And like, bless her. She's like a computer scientist. And so she was like, the what for what? Oh, God. But then once I was like, you'd be like screaming and crying and her being like, what's going on? And you'd be like, oh, nothing. Like literally nothing's happening.

It's all the top secret. Yes. Nothing to see here. No, they're like, you can tell your partner. But like, like, do you not tell anyone else. But yeah, so I had to like explain to her what it is. Like, you know, like Reese, well, Ellen's. And we got there and she was happy for me.

But I kept the secret for months and I hate keeping secrets. I'm the worst. And like, meanwhile, people were like, like, they couldn't mail out copies of it ahead of time because they had the reseal on them. So, you know, people like you. So for like all your editorial pitches and stuff, you're like, oh, I can't like send you a hard copy of this book right now. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I actually sent you one of the few I had that it was. was a sticker and I could peel off a sticker but most of them it's like printed on. So you might have like a limited edition. Reis free very limited edition. Hardcover yourself. But yeah. And then I had got connected with their team, which is like the most awesome humans on the planet. It's like this, you know, team in LA that makes everything Reese's book club related happen. And yeah, the day that the book came out and I was just on my phone, refreshing the like pick party. And then suddenly Reese's face was on my phone.

And she was holding my book and saying really nice things about it. And it was sort of out of body. And then, you know, it started, we could tell that it started selling really well because we could watch like Amazon ranking. And, you know, the publisher is getting updates from like book scan and stuff. And so everyone was sort of like Wednesday, fingers crossed. one Wednesday, next Wednesday we'll find out if it's a New York Times bestseller. And yeah, so I got the very excited call for my agent a week ago to let me know.

It was number three on the hardcover fiction list while I was like in a playground with my friend and her babies, her cute children. So I was just screaming again in a playground in a public place. And I mean, yeah, it's been very, it's just been very out of body. Like, this is so the thing that I dreamed about as an author for so long. And, yeah, it's a very strange feeling. And I'm definitely not saying this in a negative way. Like, God, I'm not complaining.

But it's very strange to sort of be like, I have peeped. Like, I will never have a launch like this again. You know, and that's, it's almost like that funny feeling of, like, feeling a little sad about how good something is while it's happening. I don't know if people talk about that in their wedding or something like that where it's sort of like knowing it's like nostalgic for a moment as you're in it. As it's happening exactly. And you know, I think there is something kind of special to that because it means you're

recognizing the specialness of it and not just letting it zoom by. And so yeah, this whole month has just been a roller coaster of emotions. And I'm just trying to let all of the emotions. you know, exist and be friendly with all of them. And when I do get those little freak out moments of like screaming joy and like little kid shrieking, just like savor those and let those be real as well. Do you have any sense of like that moment of like, I've seen so many friends publish books and it's like what they wanted to do their whole lives and then they published their book and

it's great. but like nothing, not everything changes in the way that you expect. Like it's these things you put up on a pedestal is like when this happens, my life will be good. Or when this happens, I'll feel successful. And then it happens and you have to question whether that assumption was true. I'm wondering if you've experienced anything like that. No, that's absolutely that perfectly captures it. I mean, it's like wherever you go, there you are.

I'm in a very strange place right now too because I was single for most of my 20s and most of my 30s and now I'm in a serious relationship and my girlfriend moved in with me this summer and she's super duper awesome but it's like you know when you're when you when you catch the clock at 11 11 or you blow out a birthday candle like for a long time it was like I just really want a good relationship I just really want a partner that and once that happened I was like okay I guess I need to switch now and it It was like, okay, I really want a bestseller. I just like really want a book that, you know, reaches people and takes off and like, you know, really makes my career kind of set in a new way. And now it's happening. And now if I see a clock at 1111, I'm like, oh, man, now I just hope I don't get hit by a truck. I don't know. Like what becomes the new thing? And it is genuinely incredible.

And I remember having this feeling as a magazine editor as well. when like I would get my dream job. I'm a senior editor at Glamour or I did, you know, I did get to fill in for the editor-in-chief at my last job where I was the deputy while she was on mat leave. And it was great, but it's sort of like I still like, you know, need to remember to take my laundry to the local laundromat. And I still am like in a constant battle with like my gym over the changing rates.

And like all of the day-to-day stuff is very much still there. and I still have all of my same inner demons and I still struggle with anxiety and I still struggle with, you know, the need for validation and I still, you know, none of these things went away. The what we are not calling imposter syndrome like did not, has not disappeared by any means. So and then especially right now that I have a tendency to feel guilty for not being anything but ecstatic over all the amazing stuff happening. And then the voice creeps in of like, well, then maybe you don't even deserve it because look, you're not even happy. And this whole question of worthiness and you have deserving. So there's just a lot of, yeah, this feeling you're describing of like this was the goal and now I've reached it. I think a lot of it's really easy to not favor it and to just immediately like focus on a new goal. I set the bar higher or feel depressed. you've reached this thing and your whole life didn't change.

Like the post-publication blues is a really common thing that authors talk about where your book is out pretty quickly. You know, you get a lot of accolades and then the world moves on because every Tuesday a whole new slate of books comes out. And you're just sort of still you. So, you know, there's things I'm working on. I'm really trying to sort of cultivate a gratitude practice. And I can, you know, I'm,

I'm of course getting so many just amazing messages from from readers on social media, on contact me form on stuff like that. And there's sort of this anxiety response of like, I need to like them all or acknowledge them or reply so that they, you know, feel like I heard them. And, you know, just I'm like racing through and tapping hearts. And I'm forcing myself to like, stop, read this, take this in. What is this person saying?

Like, wow, that's incredible. that this person took the time, you know, that somebody I went to high school with took the time to say congratulations or that the stranger this like random person in Louisiana like read this book and then it really resonated with them. Like what a gift. Like oh my God, how lucky am I that I'm able to kind of, you know, affect people with my words with these books I'm putting out. That was the whole goal. So just trying to remember to slow down, to feel grateful to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, say thank you and really mean it and like accept compliments instead of sort of you know judo fighting them off and deflecting and then also to just try to sort of practice self-compassion

when I have I inevitably have feelings that are not positive even in the midst of all this great stuff and to sort of talk back to the voice that's saying you're not worthy or you're not you don't deserve this or how dare you not feel great when you have this thing happening that so many people would kill for. Yeah, it was a rude awakening for me when I realized my need for validation wouldn't be assuaged by any amount of success. Like I had all of these markers that I was like, at this point, I won't need it anymore. And then I kept needing it.

And I was like, I literally had this like, oh shit, mom, my therapist. Or I'm like, I guess it's going to have to come from inside of me. It was so disappointed because it's so much harder. I'm doing the like thing too, though, where people will be like, oh, like, they'll say the kindest things. Like your recipes changed my life. They changed my relationship with food. I wore a bikini to the beach for the first time.

And I'll, for some reason, it does not permeate. But anytime somebody is like critiques anything, I'm like, oh, sunk in. I got it. Thank you so much. And I'm really trying to do the same thing where I sit and try to. internalize the good things that people say because I think you like need you need to you know it's funny how my brain won't let me do that and it makes it so much harder I'm just like yeah yeah I change your life blah blah like moving on but I'm like oh you didn't you didn't like this thing

that I did I will I will marinate on that and try to accuse you forever thank you so much I know it's so nuts yeah it's like it's like you'll have 99 nice comments and then one person will tag me. First of all, don't ever tag a review. If you write a review of anything, don't tag the person unless, you know, there's some reason to. It's positive. Yeah, if it's like a shitty review, they don't need to know about that. I don't need to, yes. I get plenty of that. I talk to my editor about reviews. You do not need to tag me. Thank you very much. But that is the one. It's also published. Like, that's my thing too. It's like, it's done. I can't change it. I'm just like, it's over. Yes. I cannot like make the character less annoying to you now. I don't know what you

want. But it's always like that's the one I believe, right? It's like, it's like, Reese can like my books. Like, like, you know, other authors I really admire can like my books, like my editor and agent who I think are brilliant, really liked my books. And then like, random person from like Carolina thinks that the ending was a little rushed and I'm like, she's right. Oh my gosh. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm genuinely confused how master class gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes. I use it when I want to learn things directly, like the cooking class from Thomas Keller has all of the wisdom that you would normally have to go to culinary

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Okay, can we talk about money briefly? We can get as nitty-gritty or not nitty-gritty as you want. But I am curious, like, if you were surprised by any of the financial elements of this career path, either in editorial or in publishing. Yeah. So, I mean, I look back on my early jobs in editing. And, you know, I worked at Conday Nass as a 22-year-old making $27,000 a year. I got them up from $24,000 a year. Thank you very much. Good for you. Good for you. Which looking back, I'm like, good Lord. How did I do that? And then I bounced around a lot. And I very much feel like, if you can, like bouncing around

is the way to get more money. It just is. And so I really watched my salary. double triple and then eventually close to, I guess it didn't ever fully quadruple, but close to quadruple within a maybe six or so years of being a professional editor by just asking for more. My mom actually was an executive recruiter

before she retired, so she really drilled into me just negotiating is simply asking them like, can you get, can you pay this? And it's not insulting, it's not rude, it's not personal, it is simply like knowing your worth and and saying it and they will respect you more for doing it like never before has an offer been rescinded because you ask for more money like the worst thing they can say is no like I love your whole philosophy of like let them say no like don't you be the one so yeah within sort of the corporate world I um yeah did did a lot of sort of like advocating for

myself and for friends and was very um you know always was happy was eager to talk about salaries within within the magazine industry because I feel like if you don't talk about it with your co-workers like it just sort of maintains it's you're just working for the man then right like you're just you know keeping the patriarchy going um so so yeah so I worked my way up my final job I was at 105 um as a deputy editor which in retrospect was awfully low for being a number two editor um And I wish I had, you know, done more, done more discussing with people. But then I was freelancing and as a freelancer. And also as an author, my personal take home has been somewhere between like 100 and 150 every year. And kind of the piece of the pie that is books has shifted and been able to get larger. And then I can kind of pull back from other lucrative. stuff like, you know, content writing and, and, you know, doing magazine features for a few thousand dollars a pop. I'm sort of doing less of that as I'm doing more writing. And what else? I think,

I think an agent is like one of the most important decisions you can make for what that determines what sort of offer you're going to get. And I know that's such a tricky thing because it's, it's gatekeeping right there. Like the agent feels like you're begging someone to take you on when actually you're sort of hiring them because they're going to be taking a 15% cut of your work. But I've just seen like, I've seen people sign with agents who don't advocate for them. And if their first book doesn't do super well, like, you know, I feel like my agent would say like, okay, well, then that was their problem.

You have a fantastic idea for the next book. and we're going to demand even more money for it. Oh, my God, I love her. Yes, she's the best. And I've seen agents, at least from the authors, as they were relaying it, seeing agents sort of be like, well, it didn't sell that well, so probably not going to get more for it. And just sort of not demanding that they get paid with their worth.

So I think really doing your research on the agent piece and having frank discussions with them about what is going to happen if this if you know we you out my manuscript and nobody wants it what is going to happen if you know the first script doesn't sell that well like how do you see my career moving forward from there um and just really having those discussions because i think it's so important something that i think up a lot of people don't realize about uh the publishing career the sort of a fiction writing career is that the reason that i'm that i am able to keep bringing in money and living off of my writing is that I write incredibly quickly because you get this advance that, like, let's say it's $100,000,

which again is a big advance and there's a ton of privilege that I can't even account for going into that with me being white and young and all those things. But you get, they tell you this advance amount, but then you only actually get like a quarter or a third of it on signing, and then you're getting these other chunks later on when you turn in the final manuscript on publication of the hardcover. If there is, a paperback, you might get the fourth when the paperback comes out. So like, you know, it was July 2017 that I sold the lost night, but I didn't get one fourth of that advance until the paperback came out, which was early 2020, right? So there's two and a half years in between. So that that money

was chopped up into a bunch of little pieces. And then there's other pieces that, you know, I sold worldwides, but if you didn't sell worldwide, maybe foreign sales. would be additional checks that come in the mail. The options, like I said, they're not a huge amount of money. If it actually gets made, that would be another big chunk of money, but the options are another like piece that's coming in. And so it's definitely like a feast and famine sort of lifestyle because you have these, in my case, overlapping checks coming at different times.

So like I am still waiting on, you know, I'll get more money when we whenever here comes out in paperback next year. I will get more money. Hopefully, I'll get more money this year when they accept my manuscript for book four, the one that I'm working on now. I will hopefully get more money at the beginning of this year or the beginning of next year when we sell my next book. And since we're in a groove now, I can do it based on, like some sample chapters and an outline, like you said. As it should be. As it should be. My God. But because of that, it's sort of these like staggered different money from different books coming in within a year. And so, um, if you think of it as a serial endeavor of like, I will completely finish this book. And then

when it is all behind me, I will begin to write the next one and even conceive of what it might be. It's going to impact you financially. I mean, it sounds obvious, but I don't know that people think about that. Like I am working on, um, and promoting several spinning plates at once. And that's sort of what allows me to do this full time. Does that make sense? It totally makes sense. And I think it's also interesting and an interesting, like, realization I've had as I've had more and more friends become successful authors is that I kind of assumed the second that your book,

first I assume the second your book was published, period. You were like super rich. Life was good to go. And then I, like, dissuaded myself of that opinion. And then I was like, oh, but if your book is in the airport bookstores and New York Times and Reese's book club, you're fucking rich. good to go. And now I've been like, I know so many authors who are just, their books are everywhere, but they're making a good living, but they're not like making the amount of money that I had.

You know, I think I assumed everybody was like a Jess Canole or, you know, you hear about these authors who are making millions and millions of dollars. And I had it realized that being an author can be a good way to create a comfortable living as a creative, but the ones who are making millions and millions of dollars are sort of more few and barbitine than I had thought. Yes, they're definitely the exception and not the role. And, you know, I have a, I have a friend who her book hit the New York Times bestseller list. And then pretty shortly after, she got some bad news about what they were pushing up her paperback publication date, which is sort of usually an indication that, like, they don't think the hardcover is going to keep selling because the idea is

they make as much as they can off the hardcover, and then they roll out the paperback. Because it's cheaper. Because it's more expensive to buy the part of it. The hardcover is more expensive. like let's shake down every buyer we can. And then we'll move on to the next. And I was like, I was so confused. I was like, but it hit the list. And she was like, yeah, they can't stop reminding me that it was only there for two weeks. So it's like even if you're a New York Times best seller, it's still like, oh, but you

weren't, you didn't stay there. It's like there's always some reason that like, oh, you were, you hit the list, but you weren't on hardcover fiction. You were in combined or like. Oh, my God. You can always like compare up. I think it's such a life lesson to learn. And I'm not saying you should sit around like comparing your life to people who are worse off than you because that feels a little mean.

But I do think that we always compare up. And even just if you switch that to comparing to past you or, you know, I just think there's so many ways to not compare up that that make your life feel better. I've heard that about the New York Times too thing. Like somebody was one of my friends was number three on the list and her agent was like, okay, how are we going to get it to number two? And she's like, we're number three. Isn't that really good? I'm happy with this. Can we just be happy here, you know?

Can we not just enjoy this? No, and I love that idea of sort of comparing yourself to your past you. And I think like a really powerful thing that's really easy to forget is like what would like little Andy who was writing in that journal? I want to be an author someday. Think of this or even high school me or, you know, me five years ago when I started writing seven years ago when I started writing the last night. Like having sort of that step back moment, I think, can be so important. And also- I literally just made my chest tight picturing little Andy, like writing, I want to be an author.

And then you like, come back from the future. And you're like, here's your pile of books. And they have really cool covers. You're going to really like them. You know, she'd be like, oh, my God. It's pretty, it's pretty freaking wild. And, yeah, so easy to just become accustomed to, you know, a photo of it in the, in the airport or something. but like that's huge.

I went to the Hudson News and like, you know, looked at the books on the wall. And, you know, the other thing I'll say about comparison is that 100% we're going to, we're going to compare up. It's really easy to do. But something really powerful that an author friend told me was, you know,

like my life really changed when I, you know, accepted that I can be happy for and jealous of someone at the same time. And it's so simple, but we have this idea of like, you know, I have good friends who are incredible writers who, you know, will have accolades I will never have once a, you know, National Book Award finalist and winning awards and just these things that like, especially in my genre, I don't know why I'm comparing. We don't even do the same thing. But it's really hard to not be jealous. And then I would feel this guilt response of like, oh, I am such a shitty friend that like I'm jealous of this person and then I'm sort of self-flagellating.

and yeah, once you just sort of acknowledge, we can all hold many, many emotions at once. We all contain multitudes, and I can both be jealous of that particular thing and be excited for them and happy for them and love them and that they totally deserve it. And that has nothing to do with me. Once I hold those two things at the same time,

it's just a much bigger relief to be excited for them and to send them your congrats. feel really authentic in it. And the fact that you're also jealous does not take away from how incredibly excited you are for them. Well, and I think like a lot of the stuff we've talked about in this conversation, jealousy doesn't make you a bad person. It's not like unique thing. It's a universal human emotion. And I think a lot of what we, we've just increased exposure so much these days. So I think we took what was always a universal human emotion and we have just exponentially made it greater just by the fact that we have.

so much more exposure to people to be jealous of. And I don't think that that makes us bad. I think it just makes us human. Right. It's so universal. There's so much data now. And we can know that people are, of course, like putting their very best, very brightest versions of their lives on Instagram. And we can have the shocking moments where you find out someone's getting divorced and you're like, but your photos are perfect. But even then, it doesn't stop us from looking at Instagram, seeing a happy photo or saying a piece of good news and being like that is their reality 100% of the time. I think we just we can't help it. That's how we process things.

And like I completely agree. Jealousy is it's adaptive. It makes sense that we feel it. It's important for us as social creatures who evolve within tribes to like, you know, aspire to things that we think would be nice for ourselves and to sort of be doing this, you know, keeping track of like what is our standing and how do how does my people group feel about me and, you know, it's just, of course, we do it and we don't need to feel guilty about it. But I think, yeah, we make everything worse with sort of that second arrow,

as Tara Brock calls it, of judging our own feelings and deciding more people for feeling a certain way. And like, I'm just really this year, especially working on like the self-compassion part and just sort of the like, it's okay. I don't need to send up that second arrow. This is just a feeling I'm having and I have 102 feelings in a tie. A big goal for mine in general this year is living in the and. I think the and is an important place to live and we can forget to do that. Yes. I would love to end on kind of a positive and a negative, I guess I would say. So can we have, can we talk about one thing that you found harder about this career or that you struggled with that people might not know about? And

and how you move through that? So I had this idea, and I think a lot of people have this idea, kind of like we said before, that you get the book deal, your dreams are coming true, and from there on out, it is just a big party, and it is smooth sailing, and it is nothing but fun. When in reality, what I found, and I've talked to enough people to feel this is fairly universal, is that, like, there's a lot of gaslighting in the industry, and you, the author, are sort of made to feel responsible for any bad news and sort of the, and I'm not trying to pile on my publisher because I think this is, I have a wonderful publisher and I love the team I work with. And like I said, this is really universal, but authors are often cut out of conversations. And so we don't really

understand what's going on or why. Sometimes we're made to feel sort of like nuts for asking for something or asking a question or, you know, why can't I have bookmarks that have the book on them that I could hand out and things like that? There's just a lot of sort of like ego and there's a lot of sort of intangible social politics going on in the publishing industry that I did not expect. That apparently is quite universal from what a hear from other authors. And it's hard and it still can be really frustrating when, you know, it feels like they're telling me X, they're wanting me to do Y when they won't do X or Y for me. And you feel almost like this adversarial feeling when it's like, we all have the same goal.

We all want to like sell my book and I'm like the one who created it. So there was a lot of like being quiet about this and feeling shame around it. Shame is sort of a, a through line. And I think things we've talked about today. It's a through line in my books. I think it's a through line for all women. But there was a lot of shame around it and just feeling like, am I crazy? Like, am I the only one having this experience?

And what has been hugely helpful is like having a few trusted people in the industry to just discuss it with and sort of like laugh together and to sort of like roll our eyes together and like, you know, be mad on one another's, you know, be frustrated on one another's behalf. And so I think, yeah, within the, within the sort of professional publishing community, I'm sure that like editors and agents are complaining about authors when we're not around too, so I don't feel that bad about it. I think it can be really helpful to do a little of your own networking. You know, if you have an agent, you could ask to be connected to some of their other clients who are in the same world or, you know, other, other authors that

your editor works with or, you know, you'll just start sort of meeting people within your community. And, you know, obviously not being the negative Nancy, obviously not seeming ungrateful, never doing it publicly, but I think it can be really helpful to have those like few sort of allies in the industry that will just help you with like the nutty quality of all of this. it just sometimes feels like, you know, it's like you thought magazine publishing and like journalism was nutty. Like Liz, you don't even know. You don't even know what book publishing is like.

It's interesting because I always was like movies, books, like magazines, people are producing these essentially what I thought of is like magical things. And I think I thought of it as like a magical process and magical people producing it. And the more I've been involved, I'm like, oh, these are just people doing. their jobs and going to work and their workplace has all of the like weird office dynamics that you would get in a lot of different workplaces, you know? 100%. That's such a good way to put it.

It's like I similarly just had this idea that like it was going to be this magical, beautiful world of like book lovers making my book and it was going to be smooth sailing and wonderful every single day. And like, it's stupid now that I sort of, you know, say that. But like, yeah, no, it's just people. And there's just politics and confusion and missed, you know, missed signals and people not knowing what's going on. So that was a surprise to me. And I think maybe if I'd expected it, it would have been a little bit less of a shock.

But yeah, just knowing that and knowing it's not just me, it's like truly every author feels this way. It helps a lot. Okay, I lied. There's two more. So the second to last one is what's your favorite part about this job? Oh my goodness. So many things. I think one of the things I love the most is just, so writing is terrible a lot of the time.

And I talked about getting me like butt in seat and fingers on the keyboard. And sometimes it is absolutely like pulling teeth. And I am just like just dragging myself through these scenes. And I don't know where I'm going. I feel so salty about it. But there are times in the. writing or revising process that I am just so in the flow and I can just see a scene and something interesting happens that I didn't see coming or you know a character says something unexpected or I just

write a little a single phrase that like really captures what I'm trying to get at and it is such a high. It is such a cool feeling. And so I just never, I try to never lose sight of the fact that like I'm being paid to do this and I'm being paid to do something I love and I'm being paid to go into that flow state and just really like tap into my own creativity and to explore these issues that are really important to me and meaningful to me and this stuff about you know women's safety and violence and shame and friendships and you know internalized sexism and all of these um all of these topics that I have really strong feelings about like I get this incredible opportunity to not only write about them but then have a lot of people read and discuss them and that is just a

completely mind-blowing, you know, mind-blowing thing that just hits me at random times and I kind of like, I'm falling over from the force of it. That's really, truly stunning to me. And I just try to remember that and keep, keep side of it when there's some silly, you know, office politics kind of thing happening because I really am just so grateful. And it's, I have to say that your books do that so incredibly well. Like I feel like the, I don't read thrillers much. I think I've told you that like I read yours basically. But I feel I love how much your books, more than any other books I feel like they represent the world that I'm living in and the conversations that my friends and I are having. And I feel like I see that reflected so rarely. And it is such a satisfying experience.

Because I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like exactly the type of thing I would talk with my best friend about. And now I need to go talk with her about it. And I need to go have this conversation. And the world just feels like my world. Oh, thank you. That is so meaningful. But it's, it's just really, I mean, this is sort of a subset of what I already said, but I feel like writing a book is like, you go deep into yourself and you pull out these things that you feel and you have no idea if other people feel them, right? We don't know what it's like to live in anyone else's body or be in anyone else's brain. But it's describing, yeah, these emotions and these vulnerabilities and these thoughts, these often shameful thoughts that, you know, they're not autobiographical.

I haven't actually killed anyone. But just these reactions and these sort of experiences, I'm like pulling them out of myself and putting them on the page and then to have other people say that they resonated or made them feel seen. It's just like the most, you know, Emily Nagoski talks about how our brains can do this really cool magic trick where like, when you're at a concert together, your brains actually start like kind of pulsing in tandem and it gives you that sort of transcendent feeling that you get it like, you know, you can get it at a rally, you can get it at church, you could get it at a concert. And like for me, it's this unbelievable gift to sort of be able to get that like person to person with strangers because

I put a bunch of words on a page and somebody else reads that and it affects them. And that's just totally mind-blowing to me. Yeah, that's, I mean, it's probably why I think I put authors and rock stars up on my, like, highest pedestals of what the coolest thing to be in the world is. And it's interesting that those are the

two things that would sort of lead the pulsing in tandem. Well, I mean, you know, like I, yeah. You realize that you do that, Liz, right? You realize that, like, you, by creating this community, having these really, like, honest discussions in your podcast,

You know, being this supplier of like life-changing advice and tips and like you're amazing, like 35 things I've learned in 35. You realize that you're doing that, right? And that literally people are telling you that and you don't want to listen. I'm double tapping a cute little heart on that. All right. All right. Save that for later, right?

When you're editing, future Liz who's editing this, I really want you to like get a to pause. I will. I'll try to listen to it. And I appreciate you saying it. Okay. If you were going to give somebody advice about pursuing a creative career, what's one thing that you would kind of leave them with at the end of this episode? That's a great question, too. Let me think about that.

I think my best advice is sort of the creative equivalent of like trust but verify. It's like, go do it, but also like maybe have a healthy dose of, you know, reality about it. I tend to find that people either are in this camp of like, I'm going to quit my job and write a book and it's going to like do everything or like it's never going to happen for me.

I've been working on the same manuscript for the last 12 years. No one's there. And they're sort of jaded. No one's able to make money doing this. No one's. I don't know that either is entirely wrong. But like my advice would be to live in the end

and to hold in your hand both like this possibility and spark and hope that like if I put in the work and I write this whole book and I work really hard on revising it and I read books about craft and I read books about plotting and feet cheats and I maybe hire maybe even hire an editor at the end to like help me get this into some kind of shape if I put in the time this absolutely could like why not me I absolutely could sign with a great literary agent and get a book deal out of it but then to also like hold you in your other hand and I'm like physically holding out my two hands as if you can see me But to hold in your other hand, like, it is hard and it is a hard industry.

And like, it takes a ton of work and there's a ton of privilege and luck involved. And those things are true as well. So, you know, I imagine that you and I have both given the advice to people who are interested in editorial of like, you know, don't be too precious about, like, don't, like you said, don't turn your nose up at other things that are going to support yourself, right? So, you know, if you have this dream of writing a book, then, like, find a way to write your book and carve out time for it. But if you're going to, like, quit your job to do it, then you should really have thought hard about, like, what your plan is and how you're going to support yourself. And, you know, don't back yourself into this corner where it's like, I've poured my whole life into this book, but I didn't bother reading about the business or reading about how to make a book that sells. and then I just feel like I'm screwed. Because again, it is a job.

It's a job and it has all the machinations of a normal job, albeit with slightly like a different type of output. Exactly, exactly. Like it really is, it is, it's easy to put it on a pedestal, but if someone doing it like I'm very grateful to do it, but there's still days that I hate it and days I absolutely don't want to do it. And I think it can be dangerous to like, keep it up on this pedestal as you're pursuing it, right?

So just acknowledge going in, like, this is what I want to do. Here's how I'm going to make it happen. I'm going to treat it like a job. I'm going to treat it like anything else, any other like trade that I wanted to learn. And it's absolutely worth pursuing. And I, you know, hate when people are like, nobody can make money doing that. Or you need a rich husband. Like, I don't have a rich husband.

It's, it's, I don't, I'm not, you know, eating caviar every night. But I don't have a rich husband. I did make it happen with a ton of husband. ton of hard work and yes, also some luck and privilege. So I feel like I'm giving you like a non-answer because I'm just walking this nice edge between. But I would like both caution and encourage and just, yeah, just remind people like know why you're doing it and be really honest with yourself because this is something that you

want to do in your free time. This is something you want to self-publish? Is it something that you want it to be your full-time job in which case you're going to pursue it in a different way? And like there's nothing wrong with any of those options. So just be honest with yourself about what sort of why you're doing this and what outcomes you're ultimately hoping for. I'm going to pitch you and your book effusively at the top of the episode.

But if you want to tell people in your own words why your newest book or any of your books are so great, I'll give you the space to do so now. All right. No pressure. So I like to write thrillers that center a complex female. relationships and take readers into sort of these close-knit closed-door worlds. So my debut of The Last Night is a murder mystery that's set within sort of the loft parties of hipster Brooklyn, circa 2009.

My sophomore novel The Herd is a whodot that's set in an exclusive, elite, bougie, all-female co-working space in Manhattan. And we were never here, which is the Rees' book club pick and a New York Times bestseller, is about two globetrotting best friends who kill a backpacker in self-defense during their dream vacation through Chile and decide to bury the body and get the hell out of there. And so it's about sort of their friendship being stretched to the limits in the aftermath, as well as the walls kind of closing it on them and their cover-up. So if you like books that are fiercely feminist and quick-moving and, you know, just really go deep,

into those themes of, you know, relationships between women and internalized sexism and women's safety and all this stuff about what it means to be a woman in modern society, you just might enjoy them, as did Reese herself. How was that? That was great. So I'm on the part of We Were Never Here where they just buried that body. And I'm just like, how do you ever go back to living a normal life after? I'd always be so nervous that I would get caught.

And also, anytime I feel like I was like, this ice cream tastes good, I'd be like, oh, I killed somebody. Like, I just feel like you can't ever, ever live a normal life after that moment again. And I just keep feeling so bad for them as they're doing it because I'm just like, and you Liz have just described the remaining two-thirds of the book. I'm curious to see how they deal with it because I'm just like, oof, oof, that's like a lot of emotional trauma for me, the normal person. But yeah, I'm loving it so far. And I also love you, like I said, it feels like this most recent book. Like, I love The Herd because I spent a lot

of time in those worlds that you were describing like the elite workspace worlds. And I feel like you captured it so well. But this is fun because it feels like a little bit of a vacation. Like you capture the fun of travel a little bit. I mean, the less murdery parts capture the The non-murdery parts. Yeah, yeah, that was really, I mean, I started writing it before the pandemic, but then I was revising it during the pandemic. And it was like, oh, thank God for this excuse to like, you know, airdrop into Chile and, you know, Lake Life in Wisconsin in some different places.

Love that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I feel like if people like this conversation, like you bring all of those elements of thoughtfulness and introspection and thinking about the way the world works and the way our brains work and the way our relationships work into your book. So I know that everybody will love them. Thank you so much for having me and for those kind words. And yeah, I'm just really grateful to be on your podcast. I love it so much. I hope you loved this episode with Andy. As always, I would love to hear anythings you're thinking as you were listening

or any feedback or thoughts or things that resonated. So definitely tag us both on Instagram. I am at Liz Moody and she is at Andy with an I, BART. And if you did love the episode, I would so appreciate a quick rating or review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps other people find the podcast and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. I read them all. They make my day every single time I read them. And if you're new here, don't forget to subscribe. We have a lot of amazing episodes coming up and I would be honored to have you as part of the little HT family that we have built here. I love you all and I can't wait to see you on the next episode next week. Next week. It's not going to get old for a while on the next episode of the Healthier

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