The Liz Moody Podcast - How to Be More Attractive, Win At Apps, Flirt Better, And More: Relationship Scientist Logan Ury Answers YOUR Qs

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

My guest today is the amazing Logan Ury. Logan is a Harvard-educated behavioral scientist turned dating coach, and the Director of Relationship Science at the dating app Hinge, where she leads a research team dedicated to helping people find love. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, GQ, Glamour, and on HBO and the BBC. She was a featured speaker at SXSW 2021, and her book, How Not To Die Alone, is absolutely phenomenal, a really science-backed, totally unique approach to dating, and is available wherever books are sold.  science-backed tips for being attractive and desirable on a date how to be a great conversationalist (including the exact questions to ask) how to let go of expectations for the first date and enjoy yourself the one HUGE thing everyone does wrong on dates how to feel super confident (and not self-conscious) on dates how to design a perfect first date, according to behavioral science (including how long it should be, who should initiate, what you should do, and more) if playing games works, according to science (the answer will surprise you!) 3 tips for creating a perfect dating app profile what to do if you’re swiping and swiping and not finding anyone you like exactly what to do if you never feel a spark or connection on dates how to flirt better how to get over exhaustion and dating despair the one thing that sets successful daters apart from unsuccessful daters green flags and red flags to look for on early dates exactly how long to chat on app before meeting in person, according to research why she tells people to have a 2 date minimum how to increase your efficiency on apps so you can spend less time on them how to meet people in real life, if you don’t want to do apps We would LOVE to hear from you any thoughts, reactions, or takeaways you have as you’re listening, so definitely screenshot and tag me @lizmoody and Logan (@loganury)! We’re also doing a huge giveaway on Instagram, including a private coaching session with Logan, so definitely head over so you don’t miss that! I would SO appreciate it if you shared this episode or any favorite episodes with someone you love in your life! PS: My Patreon is live! You can join Green Smoothie Society and get access to ALL of my green smoothie recipes and advice! Get all the deets at patreon.com/lizmoody. This episode is sponsored by AG1 by Athletic Greens. Visit athleticgreens.com/healthiertogether and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today.  This episode is sponsored by Seed. You can get 15% off your first month’s supply of Seed’s DS-01™ Daily Synbiotic by going to https://seed.com/daily-synbiotic and using the code LIZMOODY.  This episode is sponsored by Nuzest. You can use the code “LIZM” for 20% off your order on http://nuzest.us/liz. This episode is sponsored by Canva, which makes it super easy for non-designers to make professional looking graphics. Find out more at canva.com.  Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the healthier together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a cookbook author and long-time journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're learning about money and investing, or what we can eat for longevity, or the best workouts for our immune systems. And today, we're going to talk about dating. Look, clearly, I'm in a relationship. I actually haven't dated since my early 20s, and dating was obviously really different

then. But I still find dating so fascinating. because it's about social psychology. It's about what makes people connect and what makes someone charismatic. And even as a married person, I absolutely adored today's interview. I feel like I just learned how people work in a whole new way. And I even took away some tips and tricks to change my own interaction, not in dating, but just with people in general so that I can be more sparky, more charming, a better conversationalist. Also, I feel much better equipped to give advice to all of my friends who are out in the dating field right now. My guest today is the amazing Logan Yuri.

Logan is a Harvard-educated behavioral scientist turned dating coach and the director of Relationship Science at the dating app Hinge, where she leads a research team dedicated to helping people find love. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Atlantic, GQ, Glamour, and on HBO and the BBC. She was a featured speaker at South by Southwest 2021, and her book, How Not to Die Alone, is absolutely phenomenal. It's a really science-backed, totally unique approach to dating, and it's available wherever books are sold. I wanted to have Logan tackle all of your questions and dating challenges. So I asked you on Instagram, and I got thousands and thousands of responses. And our answers are so good. We talk about science-back tips for being attractive and desirable

on a date, how to be a great conversationalist, including the exact questions to ask. The one huge thing everyone does wrong on dates, how to feel super confident and not self-conscious at all on dates, how to design a perfect first date according to behavioral science, including how long it should be, what you should do, and more. If playing games works according to science, and this answer shocked me, to be honest, I feel like it was really surprising and it changed the advice that I'm going to give my friends in the future. I'll just say that. I'm curious to hear what you think about this. Three tips for creating a perfect dating app profile, how to flirt better, how to get over exhaustion and dating despair, green flags and red flags to look for on early dates, and even

how to meet people in real life if you don't want to do the whole app thing. I want to hear what you're thinking about this episode. It's just really fun and it's such interesting information. So definitely take screenshots as you're listening and write down anything you're learning, any thoughts, and tag me. I am at Liz Moody and Logan. She is at Logan Yuri on Instagram. We are also doing an incredible giveaway over on Instagram.

You guys are going to love this one. It includes a bunch of Logan's amazing books and wait for it. This is so good. A one-on-one virtual session where Logan will help you, yes, you tackle all of your dating challenges. So definitely check out Instagram to get all of the details on that. Also, share this episode. I know that you've got friends who need to hear this. I know it because I have already sent this episode to like 10 of my friends,

help people stop doing the wrong things, help people find love. And if you love this episode and you want more like fun, relationship, juicy stuff, we have an NSFW sex Q&A from back in the fall that I highly recommend that you listen to when this one's over. It's got like science-backed practices to fire up your libido, the sex position we all should be doing but aren't and more. Finally, if you're new here, don't forget to hit that subscribe or follow button so you don't miss out on future episodes. They drop every Wednesday and we've got some amazing stuff coming up, including a Harvard scientist busting exercise myths, a TV star dishing on what really goes on in Hollywood and

why it is so terrible for mental health and more. So join the fam. We would love to have you. Okay, without further ado, please welcome the absolutely wonderful Logan Yuri to the show. All right. I'm here with Logan, Yuri, and you're going to help us become expert daters. I'm really excited. Yay. Excited to be with you. Let's just get right into it. What are your best tips for being attractive and desirable on a date? Oh, interesting. Coming in hot. Okay. Yeah. One thing that comes

to mind for me is this idea of be interested, not interesting. So often when I work with clients, they're like, I can't go out with anyone yet. I haven't been on any cool trips during the pandemic. and I have nothing to talk about and I'm not interesting enough. And they're so focused on how they're going to come across. And tons of research into what makes people feel attracted to you, what makes people have a good time, tells us that it's much more about asking people questions that make them feel interesting. And so it's really about saying to someone, oh, how did you end up moving here?

And how is this different from what you expected? And if your 16-year-old self looked at you now, what would they be surprised to be surprised by and what would they not be surprised by? And it's so funny, the more that the other person talks, the more they think that you're a great conversationalist. And so my first tip is really on focus on being interested, not interesting. I love that. Is there a balance between asking a lot of questions? And I think people are afraid of like making the other person feel like they're on a job interview or something like that. Yeah, I think about this a lot. So one term that I've come up with is ZQ. Somebody who ZQ asks zero questions.

And so that's one really far end of the extreme. And I, just to put a gendered lens on it, a lot of women say to me, these guys never asked me any questions. At the end of the date, I feel like I could write their biography and they don't know anything about me. And I'm like, yeah, that sucks. And when I put this on Instagram, all these people were like, wait, am I ZQ? And I'm like, yeah, that's the first question you've asked in a long time.

No, okay. And it's just so interesting. So I think the far extreme is you don't ask any questions and you make the other person ask all the questions and that's terrible because what's sometimes happening in your mind is you're like, well, if they had something to say, they would just say it. Why do they need to be asked? Or she must have just thought I was so interesting. That's why she asked me all these questions. It's like, no, no, no, this is a conversation. You want to go back and forth. The other thing that you don't want to do is ask what I call index card questions. And so that's these questions that are kind of cheesy that you got from the internet, don't ask something like, if you could go to dinner with five people, it's better alive, that just makes me cringe. It should be something based on the information they've shared that helps you follow up, but not something that you got from a Reddit thread called like questions to ask on a first date. Okay. So if we're on a first date, would it likely be something from their profile that we've seen? It could be. But honestly, people's profiles are just not that much space. It's kind of like a billboard representation of who they are. Yeah. There's a few ways of doing this.

So one is like, can you just respond to the moment? Can you say something like, wow, that's an awesome jacket? Where did you get it? Are you really into fashion? Or how did you choose this place? Have you been here before? Like, if you can actually just be a person who's in the moment responding to the experience, that's a great way to be present.

My friend, Kristen Berman, has this term press play mode. And that means like I say to you, Liz, how did you get into podcasting? And like you've been asked that question a hundred times and you press play in your mind and you say, well, at first I thought I was going to do this. But then I was on a podcast and you're just repeating to me something you've said a million times before. The opposite of press play mode is just being in the moment and I ask you a question you've never thought about.

And then you're like, hmm. And that's the moment where you think and have an experience. And that's what's actually fun and leads to connection, not pressing play on some tape you've said a million times. Okay. I like that. Along those lines. a question that I got a lot is like, how do I let go of expectations for the first day and

worrying about how I'm looking and how I'm acting because that feels really counterproductive. So that feels along the lines of trying to be in the moment. Yeah. So expectations is something that I imagine you and I are going to talk a lot about today. And I talk about it with my dating coaching clients all the time. It's something that comes up because so often people say, am I too picky or am I not picky enough? Are you telling me to compromise or are you telling me to settle? And so expectations is very loaded concept. So the first thing that I'll say is that how you feel going

into the date has a huge impact on how the date goes. And so if you feel confident, if you feel sexy, if you feel connected to your body, you're going to show up in a different way than if you feel self-conscious. And so it feels like some of the subtext to that question is, how do I get over my own insecurities to really show up as my best self? And I would just say, the premise of that question is important because this does matter. Well, let's talk about that for a second because I think that that's hugely important. Like what you essentially just said is how your date goes has as much to do with you and how you're feeling when you go into it as it does with who you end up on the date with. And I just think that's hugely important. And I rarely hear that discussed.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had a client once who was just so negative. She was just so burned out. She was so overdating. Every suggestion I gave her, she would start with, but no. She would just me why it wouldn't work. And I was like, you could go on a hundred more dates and it's not going to work out because of the energy and the mindset and the attitude that you're bringing to dating. And so for some of those people, well, actually for everyone, I like to say this version of the old quote, which is whether you think the date will go poorly or you think the date will go well, you're right. In other words, your expectations and your mindset are going to have a huge impact on the quality of the date.

Okay, so then how do we feel sexy and confident and excited before we go out on a date, especially if we've been out on a million dates before and they've all, like, sucked? Yeah. So, first of all, you only need one person. So each time you go out, you can say, like, this may or may not work, but it only has to work once. It's not like I have to find 10 great potential partners. I like to encourage people to do a pre-date ritual.

And so that is something that you do to separate the time between when your day ends and when you show up on the date. And so your date doesn't just begin when you open up FaceTime or you walk into the wine bar. It actually begins hours before. And so some of the things I like to propose for people. One is taking a bath. I'm really into sense. I'm really into relaxation and all of that. And so taking that moment to just go from work mode to dating mode or flirtatious mode, I also like to listen to comedy podcasts and just laugh and kind of get out of my head and just be in a positive mood. I have a bunch of pump-up playlist that I listen to. Sometimes I do jumping jacks just to get my heart up and really get the blood flowing. Sometimes I'll call a friend for a

little bit of a pep talk or just kind of to get out of work mode and into a different mode. But yeah, even something small like spraying perfume on yourself to go from a work zoom to a dating zoom, even something like that can tell your brain, like we're in a different place. I love that. I also think podcasts are great for looking for those conversation starters because they can get you to be talking about things versus just what do you do, what do you do, versus the reporting conversation. I think that's such good advice because a fun tip that I give people is instead of walking in and starting from the beginning, where do you live in the city? What do you do? When did you move here? Can you just start the way you had talked to a friend, which is literally walking in and being like,

Liz, on the way over, I was listening to such an interesting podcast. And then you just get into a conversation. And it's like, that's what we do with friends. We don't start with what was your commute to this location like. And so you can always roll back time and ask the basic small talk questions later. But can you actually just begin by being like baseline? We're friends and we're going to have a normal conversation. I love that. I also feel like that's a really good tip to the second part of the question, which was worrying about how I look and how I'm acting. Do you have any other tips for that part of it for not being self-conscious on? the date? Yeah. So my first step is more psychological, which is like, know that it matters and so

invest in feeling your best. And then in terms of how you do that, for me, like I have certain outfits that I've gotten compliments on it. So if I wear one of those outfits, I'm just like, well, people seem to think I look cute in this. And I have other outfits where I'm like, oh, should I have not bought this color? Was I feeling a little too adventurous that day? Maybe it's just like not the time to wear a crop top if you're going to be pulling down your top the whole time. It's like, what are the locations, the environment, the activity, the outfit, the time of day that really play to your strengths. And so, for example, I was speaking to a client yesterday who said that this guy keeps trying to ask her on tennis dates. And I was like, I think that's a fun day.

Like get the endorphins flowing. Be competitive. Go out for juice afterwards. And she's like, that just feels uncomfortable to me. I don't want to do that. And I was like, Okay, so what I'm hearing is the environment of a tennis date doesn't play to your strengths, what date does? And she was like, I love history and I love talking about the history of my city. I was like, amazing. Take him on a tour of some of your favorite spots. And like, it hadn't crossed her mind that she could create a date that played to her strengths, but she totally could. And that is actually going to make a really big difference in how she shows up. That's so interesting. Okay, let's talk about first dates. A lot of people wanted to know what,

were good first date ideas. It sounds like you maybe don't think there's universally good ones. Like, is it more specific to each person? I actually do have a list of basically applying behavioral science. So the study of decision making, basically just a fancy way of talking about how the small details matter and applying that to dates to design really good dates. And I can give you a couple of my favorites from that. Yeah, let's do it. So one is people really respond to you putting in effort. And so if you say to a person, oh, where in the city do you live? And then you plan a date near them that actually goes a long way and just showing that you are accommodating, that you're decisive, that your care, and that you can plan a good date. Another one, which we just talked about, is being thoughtful about the time and

place. So for me, I'm such a morning person. Maybe I would go on a date in the morning. Maybe not. I should mention, by the way, that I'm married. So these are more hypothetical. But just really thinking about if you're super tired after work every day, then like maybe you need to do it on the weekends or like just being realistic with yourself about how you show up at different times of day. Another one is adding an element of play. And so I like to say don't play games but play. So playing games is pretending to be someone you're not, waiting three hours to respond, asking the group chat what to say, right? It's all about like not even being yourself being who you think you should be. Whereas play is in the moment, let's improvise, let's jive off of each other's

energy, let's look at who's around us and people watch. It's really about, it's almost a version of mindfulness. It's like it's you and me, baby, against the world, looking at the people around us versus feeling like we're sitting across from each other in a coffee shop interviewing each other. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually take the steps to make eating healthier easier. That's where Marley Spoon comes in. What I love about this company and what's different than all of the other companies out there that are doing like stuff in the same arena, is that you can customize your choices based on the effort that you want to put in. So if you want

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Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody, Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. Is there a sweet spot for amount of time to spend on a first date? So you don't feel like you're stuck there with somebody you might not like so much. It's interesting that you ask that because I really try to pay attention to when my dating coaching clients bring up the same topic a bunch. And I'm like, okay, I've just heard this three times.

There's definitely a trend here. And even in the last week, multiple clients of mine have said, I go on these four or five hour dates and like, I don't even know if I like the person. And I'm like, what? That is so much of your time to spend with someone that you don't know if you like them. And they're like, well, yeah, I guess my limit should be no more than four drinks. I'm like, that's a lot of drinks. Not that I'm judging them for the drinking, but like-

It's a long time. Yeah. Do you feel like you owe that to them? And they're like, well, the person seemed to be having fun. So I want to stick around. I'm like, slow down. If you're going on five-hour dates, you're going to burn yourself out. Because when you think of dating, you think of five hours.

Can you think of dating as 45 minutes, an hour, 90 minutes? Not that you can't extend it if it's going well, but somewhere in their psychology, they were like, well, if the guy seems to be having fun, I should stick around. And I think that's actually a recipe for burning yourself out. And do you think that just median for a drink is like not a good first date? I also get this question a lot. I want to give the aspirational answer and I want to give the realistic answer. So the aspirational answer is, I want you to do something creative.

I want you to do something fun. I want you to have an experience. So for me, it's like, can you meet up in a place? Like, for example, I live in the Bay Area. So can you meet up along the strip that has a lot of different dumplings? Can you go on a little dumpling tour? You know, no one can be too serious when they have soy sauce dripping out the side of their face. Like, that to me is a great date. People are going to push back and be like, Logan, that's too intense for a first date. I don't want to put that effort in. Can't we just meet up and get drinks. And so drinks do not. have as much of the experiential fun I put effort in thing as other dates, but I do want to be realistic that that's what a lot of first dates are like. I would just try to avoid something that feels too friendly and it's going to be really hard to connect or feel sexually interested in someone when it's like a 7 a.m. Starbucks date. It's not like, I'll know it when I see it. And if you're my soulmate, even at 7 a.m., I'll want to jump your bones. It's like, no, like that's way too early. to feel sexual. And so you're actually shooting yourself in the foot if you try to plan a date that actually is more like something that you would do with friends. And then it ends up just feeling

like a lack of connection. Okay. And then you keep saying if you try to plan a date. And I know a lot of women in my life don't feel like they should be planning the first date, the first few dates, and they really don't feel like they should be asking for the date on the app for fear of turning the guy off. And obviously this is very gender stereotype, but I hear it over and over for my friends. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yes. So first of all, in terms of how I speak and how I give advice, I just like to imagine that I'm giving advice to everyone. I'm really proud that my book is written for men and women.

And I have a lot of male clients. I think because I use terms like sunk-cost fallacy and loss aversion, I make men feel safe and they hear me on NPR and they want to work with me. And so I'm like, yes, I want to speak to. everyone. This is not a book for like men on pickup artistry and it's definitely not a book for women on like how to be passive and make the man work for you. Like those are so far from what's interesting to me. I understand that your audience is probably mostly female. Is that true? Yes. They are mostly people. We have we have some men and we love our men, but I would say mostly female. Okay. So with that in mind, this one is complicated, but I will give you a piece of research

that we did at Hinge that hopefully is helpful to your listeners. So some of the people on on dating apps who feel most burned out are people that get the most attention. So people who get the most incoming likes because they open up the app and they're just like, oh, like, where do I start? There's just a flood of interested people. And like, yes, I can hear you if you're someone who doesn't get this. That's a nice problem to have. But that does lead to burnout. And so the intuitive advice might be, I should take a break from dating because I feel overwhelmed. But what we actually found is that the more that you feel in control of your dating life, the less burned out you feel. And one of the best ways to feel in control of your dating life is to go after what you want. And so what that looks like

is directly liking people on hinge, sending comments to people who you're especially interested in, and even suggesting a phone call or a FaceTime or a date. And so instead of worrying about how you come across by being proactive, you should actually think, I'm going to be happier about dating, go on more dates, go on more dates with people I like if I go after what I want, because that's what our research showed. And I also feel like if somebody is going to be turned off by you asking them out on a date, like, is that really somebody you want to build a life for it? And then my friends are like, no, no, it's like they subtly think that you're better catch

and whatever, whatever. But I'm like, is that true at all? Are these subtle games working in our favor ever? I wish I could say that none of that is true. I honestly think this is like a pretty complicated one and there's a lot of layers to it. So in general, and I'm going to say this not with a gendered lens, in general, people like things that they have to work for. And so, for example, if you were applying to a job and the day after you applied, they were like, you're hired, you're it. You'd be like, what? Why are they, why is that such an easy job?

If they made you go through like an interview round, a writing sample, an in person, an on site, all these things, like it's basically this concept of cognitive distance. It's like your brain doesn't like to hold too conflicting thoughts. And so if you are putting a lot of effort into something, you say, wow, I must really want this because why else would I be putting so much effort into it? And it doesn't make sense to say, I don't really want this yet I am putting a lot of effort into it. So in general, human psychology, we tend to like things that we have to work for.

That being said, in the dating app world, playing hard to get is actually not that great of a strategy because it's not like I met you at a bar and I'm waiting three days to call you and you didn't meet anyone else that night. I have tons of options. You have tons of options. There's a lot of messages going back and forth. What we found at Hinge is that being responsive, responding to somebody within a few hours or at least within 24 hours means you have a greater chance at going on a date. And so in general, being responsive is a good technique. In terms of who should make the date, one thing that I tell my clients to pay attention to is matching effort. So if you suggest the first date and then you go out and then after the first date, you follow up, you suggest the second date.

I'm like, if you stopped messaging that person, would you just never hear from them again? And so it's not to me let the guy take the lead and do all the work. It should be equal or it should be close to equal and you should match the other person's interest and should be going back and forth. If you feel like you're taking 90 steps forward and they're only taking 10, just doesn't feel like a good recipe for me for someone who's really interested in you. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That cognitive dissonance idea and like the idea of like we like working for something, I feel like that rings true in just so many parts of our lives, you know? Yeah, there's also a related concept called the IKEA effect that one of my mentors, Dan Ariely, came up with, which is that, you know, have you built IKEA furniture before? Yeah. I built one stool and I will not shut up about it. I'm like, this is my stool. I use it to get to high shelves. I built this myself. Okay. So stable. I love it. You totally guess what it is. Yeah. Basically, like if you build something yourself, you just value it so much. And it's like I feel like I've recently gotten rid of the last of my IKEA furniture, I think. But it's just like we hold onto these things because we built them. And then they are like, we value them so much because we know the effort that went into

them. I feel like that's why they make their instructions like a little bit opaque too. Like, they're slightly more confusing than they need to be so that you feel like you overcame a hurdle when you put it together. It's so true. It's so true. It's a journey. It's really a journey. Okay. So here's one. How can I make my dating app profile more attractive? Like what are three tips for creating an ideal profile? Sure. I have spent multiple years studying this. And I'm very happy to talk about it because I think I actually have very tactical tips to give here. So one is, is your profile is telling a story. It's branding. It's really revealing who you are. And so you want to think about the story that you're telling and you want to have variety on it. So start with this.

Start with what are three things that I want to get across in my profile? And so they could be something like I am looking for a long-term relationship. I am really into my dog and I love cooking. Okay. So in your profile, and I'll talk about Hinge, through your photos and your prompts, you need to get those messages across. And so then when you think about what you include, you at least have a little bit of an idea of, okay, I want to have at least one picture that shows me of my dog, maybe a picture of me cooking or something I made. And then in my prompt response, I'll talk about looking for a long-term partner. So that's just an early exercise. Are those three things? Should those be things that you personally are proud of? or like think are vital to your personality, or should they be three things that you think would be attractive to a potential partner? It's a great nuanced question. I would say the former. It's really about indicating who you are, not trying to be what you think other people want. Just in general in life, I think the more that you can be authentically who you are, you're going to find someone who is picking up what you're putting down. I think when people try to play the game too much,

they just end up misrepresenting themselves. I have this story in my book of a woman, who came over and she showed me her profile and it had these pictures of her hiking and talked about how she loved camping and all this stuff. And I was like, what? This like doesn't represent you at all. And she's like, I know, I know, but I want to find like an outdoorsy guy. That's what I'm attracted to, the lumber sexual. And I was like, your luggage tag literally says, I love not camping. Like that is a thing about you that I know. Why is your profile like this? And she was like creating this basically false image of herself in order to attract this type of guy. And instead, we changed it to who she was, which was like into jazz, into whiskey, into

traveling. And she found someone that was just way more into that and not outdoorsy at all. And so it's about portraying herself in an accurate but flattering way. Okay. So like women don't need to put pictures of themselves holding a fish. Oh my gosh. No. The fish pictures, everyone should avoid because they're so cliche at this point that people like,

it will proactively swipe left on them. I feel like men, like, found out they were cliche, though. And then they're like, I'm going to be so funny and make fun of the cliche by putting my fish picture in there now. And it's just like, no, no, it's still cringy. Like, stop with the fish. I agree. Yeah, there's a whole category of cliches that people should avoid.

And that's definitely one of them. Okay. So we have our three things represented in three different ways on our profile. What's next? Yeah. So let's just go through the photos themselves, Jews and don't. So your first picture should be kind of like a headshot, just what your face looks like. Clearly, no filters, no sunglasses.

I just need to see what you look like. And you should also have pictures that show your full body, you with friends and family to show that you have an active social life, and ideally you doing something that you love. Show us what dating you would look like. In terms of what to avoid, just in general, selfies perform poorly. People don't like gym selfies. people don't like pictures of you smoking. I would avoid that.

Filters and sunglasses make it harder for us to see what you look like. I also call certain photos Where's Waldo pictures, where it's like the 12 blonde women at a bachelorette or like bridesmaids at a wedding. And I'm like, which one of the blonde women in a pink dress are you? Why are you making me guess? This is like a little weird, but I have a friend who's very hot. And she puts pictures where like her very hot body is clearly on there. And I'm kind of like, I don't know, if you lead with photos of, like, she's obviously so hot and beautiful,

but I'm like, if you lead with photos of how hot and beautiful you are, are you just going to get, like, scumbag guys who are only interested in sex? Yeah, this one's really complicated. I had a conversation with this beautiful woman last week about this. She's 26. She has a large chest. And her first photo was her wearing this tight dress with that. And I think it depends. I think it depends what you're looking for.

Like I would never say like because your body looks like that, you need to hide it. If you have a hot body and that's like something that you worked hard on and you're proud of, like, why would you not lead with that? Like if you have like an amazing job and you're pediatric oncologists and you save kids' lives, like lead with that. And so like I would never tell someone your body is so attractive that it's going to be hypersexualized and you shouldn't lead with that. And so my advice there would be date like.

a scientist. That's something that I tell my coaching clients all the time. I teach a class called Date Smarter, where we talk about this. It's basically that it's not that I always know the right answer. It's that I can tell you how to run an experiment. So an experiment would be when my first picture is a little bit more G-rated and it's like me smiling in a sundress, what type of attention do I get? What type of guys do I attract? When my picture is more of the going out super tight dress, that's a little more busty, what type of attention do I get? And maybe you're like, I just get more total attention with the second one and then I can filter? Great. Maybe you're like, I hear from sleazyer people and I don't want to do that. That's fine. And so it's not about

hiding yourself or hiding your strengths. I think it's about understanding that how you portray yourself does lead to different results. That's interesting. Would that include stuff like I have another friend who thinks that when she tells anybody that she's a PhD, that men are like turned off instantly. And I'm like, that cannot be the case. Please tell me that's not the case. Some guy is going to love that. But she's like, no, no, like literally every single guy. So would that be the same kind of thing? Like maybe hide it and do your own filtering some of the time and put it on some of the time and test? Yeah, I've actually done exact research into this thing. And what I found with women that have graduate degrees, so beyond college, is that they get fewer total number of people

who send them proactive messages. But the guys that go out with them like them more, than women with just high school degrees or just college degrees. And so you get a fewer total number of dates, but the dates you do go on are more likely to end up as a great date. Okay. Okay. That's positive. I like that. Yeah. I mean, for that example, I would say don't hide it because like, come on, you have a PhD. This is part of your identity. You spent six years in school. Are you really going to date someone who's so intimidated by that that you have to hide it? It's like, no, lead with that and let that filter for you. And that's honestly a big part of my advice. for people is like we're so concerned with quantity. I want to get as many messages as possible. No, think about attracting the right type of person. And so another piece of advice I was going to give around saying what you're looking for is that we ran this fascinating experiment at Hinge where we had four fake profiles and they said different things for what I'm looking for. Some of them

were more generic, like looking for somebody kind and funny. And some of them were more focused on I'm looking for my forever adventure partner. I'm looking for a good time in a long time, like clearly looking for long term. And then we had 12,000 people look at these profiles. And we knew some of the 12,000 were looking for long term. Some of the 12,000 were looking for short term. And what we found is that if the person looking at the profile wanted a long term relationship and saw that the profile said they wanted a long term relationship, then they were 17% more likely to send them a message. If the person looking at the profile didn't want a long-term relationship and saw that the other person did, they were 11% less likely to send them a message.

This is a really important point because it means that being up front from the beginning means you turn the right people on and you turn the wrong people off. What if you just don't feel like the right people are out there? Like I got a lot of questions that were like, I swipe and swipe and swipe and swipe and I literally just don't see anyone I like. do I need to move cities or how do I fix that? Yeah, this is really common. I think if you've just been on these apps for 10 years, you're just like, nobody knew is in my town. What am I supposed to do? Like, I hear, I hear the frustration, the question, I hear that frustration from people I work with. There's no one answer. One thing I would say is really taking a look at your criteria.

are there people that you are making assumptions about and writing off for the wrong reason? And so I had a client who was just, she's just a skeptical person, I would say. And when somebody put on their profile that they were an entrepreneur, she just assumed, oh, I bet that means they don't have a job. I was like, why would you think that? And she's like, well, that just seems like a BS thing to me. And I was like, okay, instead of swiping left, why don't you say to yourself, I have a question. what does this person do? And then in your text chat with them, you can make sure to get that question address. And if you like their answer, go out on a date with them. And so it's thinking about how can I be more curious about people and assume positive intent instead of being super negative

and assuming that like any missing piece of information or any unflattering photo is a reason to say no to them. When you think about strength and resilience, like your ability to feel energized, to recover well to stay strong as you get older. What do you think that actually comes from? Most people say working out or good nutrition, and yes, of course that matters. But there is a biological foundation underneath all of that that most people are completely overlooking.

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their premium starter kit, you can use code Liz Moody for 15% off at branchbasics.com. That's code Liz Moody for 15% off the premium starter kit at branchbasics.com. And when they ask you where you heard about us, please make sure to mention the show. That is branchbasics.com and use code Liz Moody. Okay, let's stay on the negative for a little bit. I'm underwhelmed by every. Every person I go on a date with, I literally never feel a spark. Is there something wrong with me? I hear this question so often to the point where I'm like, what is going on with people? Like, are we all just like on our devices all day? And we don't have any connection to our body. And we're just not feeling sexual. I probably get this question like once a week, which is some version of I go in. If I see a hundred guys, I only feel attracted to three of them. And then of the three guys I'm attracted to, only one likes me. And that means that like I have a one in a hundred chance of even connection.

connecting with a guy. And I'm like, yeah, that is too low. That just is not sustainable. And so what are the things that people can do to increase their chances of being turned on by people? And like, how can they be more in their bodies? How can they masturbate more or listen to dipsy for audio porn? How can they really get connected to their own sexual feelings? Because sometimes it's about just you feeling more open to sexuality, connection, erotic energy. And so step one is just increasing the number of people who you may feel attracted to. Another thing is understanding that attraction can grow over time. Sometimes people just the first time they're like, kind of quirky looking. And then you're like, wait, they're sort of adorable. And I keep thinking

about them and I want to kiss them. And if you just have this like blunt, immediate reaction to people, you're just turning down a lot of people that could make great long-term partners. That's interesting. I do think we have, and I know that you've talked about this a lot, too, this notion of love it first night or something that we're supposed to be really feeling when we meet somebody and it sets expectations. It's not productive as an idea. Yeah, people just go to first dates with this concept of like, I'll know it when I see it. It's going to be love at first sight. It's going to be instant chemistry. And, you know, I know, as you know about my work, I have this idea of fuck the spark.

I love this idea. Yeah. So I'll go into fuck the spark and where it came about. And it's not that the spark doesn't exist. It totally does. It's that we put too much emphasis on needing it right away. And we just give it so much power in modern dating. And so the first myth around the spark is that if you don't have it, it can't grow.

That's just definitely not true. Research shows that only 11. percent of people in happy relationships experience love at first sight. Many of them, the feeling grew over time. That's why people end up marrying someone from work, marrying someone from their apartment building, marrying someone who lives in their dorm. It's called the mere exposure effect. The more that you are exposed to something, the more that you like it. Oh, that's so interesting. I knew about that in terms of we like people who have like names that are similar to ours or sound like ours because we're just exposed to our name so much that we like it. But I didn't

think about that familiarity concept applying to other facets of our life. That's interesting. Oh, yeah. Haven't you ever had a thing where like you hear a new like Bruno Mars song and you're like, I don't like it? And then like after the fifth time, you're like, I really like it. This is my favorite song ever. Yeah, totally. I love that song. I know that song. So yeah, the first one is that the spark can grow over time. Okay. The second myth is if you feel the spark, then it must be a good thing. And honestly, people get this wrong so often. Look, some people are just very sparky. I met this guy recently. I'm like, damn, he's just giving everyone the spark over here. Every girl at this conference is just feeling this guy. And it's like, yeah, he was hot. He made good

eye contact. He was charismatic. He was a sparky person. It doesn't mean that there was something special going on between him and the woman he was speaking to. It was a reflection of him. And I happen to think this guy was really nice person. But sometimes the sparky guys or the sparky person, they can be really narcissistic and they can be really into love bombing or seducing you or getting you to fall for them. And it's not actually a reflection of if they're a good partner. It's about the feeling that they give the people that they meet. Is there any way that we can up our sparky qualities? Like it was interesting, you just said, gives good eye contact or things like that. If I wanted to be that charismatic, attractive person, are there little tricks I could employ? Yeah, I get this

question a lot. I don't feel like it's my expertise. I feel like I'm not the flirtiest person. I do in my dating class have a flirting expert come in and he teaches a flirting seminar and it's really, really fun. And the reason why I selected him is that I knew all these people that he had dated and hooked up with. And I'm like, oh my gosh, those people are so hard to get and like so picky. And like you just seem to like have so much game. And when I was around him and observing him, I'm like, he just makes everyone feel so connected to him. He asks incredible questions. He asks follow-up questions. He makes people feel interesting. He's lived an interesting life, which he talks about. But it's really about he's just open to possibilities. He doesn't go to a party saying, if I don't meet someone, this was a waste. He's like, people are these

conversational paths that I can go down and see where I wind up. And in the class we came up with this idea of ABF, always be flirting. And it's basically just a mindset. Like, What does it mean? Can you go to a coffee shop today and while you're waiting in line for the drink? Ask the person next to you. Did they call my name yet? Who cares if that's the gender of the person you're interested in? It's just about engaging in the world and this really open-minded, open-to-possibility's way. I like that because I'm married, but I still want everybody that I meet to love me. You know, I'm a leader too. So I'm just like, I love the idea of kind of like bringing that flirty energy to every interaction. Yeah. Flirt with the world. You are going to feel.

so good. You're going to be feeling yourself. You're going to wake up and your whole mindset will change. I love that. Okay, this is my last downer question. But I did get a variation of it a lot. So I'm just going to read one of them, which was trying to think of a question, but I'm mostly just feeling intense exhaustion and dating despair. Is there anything that you can say that can help? Yeah. The first thing I want to say is just like, I hear you. If you've been single for a long time and it hasn't worked out, you're kind of like, what's my evidence that it ever will work? And there's never a guarantee that you'll find someone. It's not like, okay, well, I want to go to law school. And if I study hard enough for the LSAT and apply this year and apply again next year, like,

eventually I'll get in. Like, there really is no guarantee. And I think sitting with that uncertainty and navigating that ambiguity can feel really bad. And so just kind of want to start off by saying, like I really feel where this person is coming from. In terms of what to do, one thing that I'll point to is what I said earlier, which is that research on burnout that shows that actually going after what you want, feeling in control of your dating life is correlated with feeling less burned out. If you hear that and you're just like, hell no, the last thing I want to do is put more work in, I also respect that. And so what would it feel like for you to feel more like yourself. What are the things that you can do in your life that bring out that really happy side of

you? And so there's this term that I came up with when I was working with a dating coach, I guess seven years ago, which is confidence, feeling calm and feeling confident. And I'm like, that is my ideal state as an anxious person. Calm is like, I trust that things are going to work out. I'm feeling myself, not I'm feeling myself. Like, I trust things are going to work out. I'm not overthinking things. I feel optimistic. And then the confident part is just believing that people are attracted to me and the feeling myself piece. And so I used to try to text and date from that place. And so if you're feeling disconnected, what are the activities, who are the people that you can be around? Can you take time off work? Can you go on a trip? How can you revisit that confident part of yourself and then

date from that place? I love that. That's a beautiful exercise in general, too. I know your book is called How Not to Die Alone. Do you think, though, that if somebody doesn't find their match, they're doomed to live a less happy life? Yeah, this is a funny one. I definitely get pushback on my title. I like my title. I think it's provocative. Like, if you see it in the airport, you're going to ask about it. But I also know that some people find it aggressive. And so my somewhat defensive answer to that is like, if I wrote a book called How to Cook French Food, it doesn't mean that everyone in the world needs to cook French food. It's that if you're interested in cooking French food, this is a book for you. And so this is basically a book for people who are single and don't want to be. Lots of people are in a relationship with themselves. And there's all these books coming out about, you know, single and happy or divorced and happier than ever. And so I think everyone should make the right choice for themselves. That being said, we do know from the research how important relationships are to our lives. And the

quality of our relationships determines our overall health, happiness, and life satisfaction. But that's relationships in general, not just romantic relationships. So you'd say the research supports that we're healthier together? The research supports that we're healthier when we're connected, it doesn't necessarily have to be in a romantic partnership. It could be investing in your community, being a great aunt or uncle, living with friends. But yes, living in isolated life tends to make people less happy and less healthy. Is there any research, like statistics you could point to that might make somebody who

definitely wants a partner but is afraid they might never find one? Are there any comforting statistics in that realm? This is a good question. I don't have something off the top of my head from a quantitative or statistics perspective, but what I can say from working with hundreds of dating coaching clients is, first of all, You might think that my hottest clients have the most success. Like you might be listening and being like, if I lost 10 pounds, everything in the world would open up for me.

I have had clients that are either literal celebrities or so beautiful and they struggle with the same things that everyone else struggles with. And so there is not a sense of like if you look different than everything would change. The second thing is that my clients that have the most success, what sets them apart is the consistency. They consistently go on dates. They consistently run experience. experiments and try to get better. They consistently learn from their mistakes. And so it's not about

a magic moment where you're at the farmer's market and you reach for the tomato and you have the adorable we met story. It's much more about swiping, going on dates, figuring out your blind spots, developing healthier dating habits, and finding a great person and committing to them. There really is no magic potion. What are some green flags that we can look for on dating profiles? Oh, interesting. Honestly, my response is going to be more about green flags to look for on early dates. I think, you know, dating profiles are two-dimensional. There is a limit to how much you can tell about someone. And so I really try to say, like, go from the app to a date as quickly as possible, see if you can banter, see if you like the sound of their voice, see if you're attracted to them. Really, it's just impossible to read too much into the profiles or you shouldn't try to. In terms of green flags, I have a chapter in my book. where I talk about what matters more than we think for long-term relationships and what matters less than we think. And some of the what matters more stuff is, are they loyal? So you can look for, do they have friends from different aspects of their lives? Or they tend to have fair weather friends

where, you know, whoever can go to Ibiza this weekend, that's who they hang out with. Emotional stability, which is a hard one. But when things happen, do they tend to react right away or do they tend to take a breath and pause and actually take that moment to respond? Can you make decisions together? This is something, obviously, you need to spend more time with someone, but when something difficult comes up, like, you know, one of you, you know, maybe you have, like, friends' weddings the same weekend and you have to negotiate that. Like, can you compromise? Can you talk about hard stuff? Can you have hard conversations? And similarly, can you fight well? All couples fight. Sixty-nine percent of problems in relationships are perpetual,

meaning you will not solve them. It's about navigating those differences. And then finally, which has become the most important in my mind to me, is what side of you this person brings out? And what that means is it's not about who I am. It's not about who you are. It's about when we're together, what's the dynamic that emerges? And what side of me do you bring out? Because that's who I'll be all the time that we're together. It's really such a good point that you're just going to be hanging out with this person ostensibly for the rest of your life. And it's like, who do you want to be for the rest of their life? Yes, exactly. Yeah, that's huge. I was going to ask what's the sweet spot for the best amount of time to chat on the app before meeting in person.

It sounds like you think as quickly as possible you should move it to in person. Yeah, we did some research on this at Hinge and the sweet spot is between two to five days. But in general, I think people talk way too long in the apps before meeting up. There's a sense of like, well, like, I couldn't possibly meet up with someone I'd only spoken to for two weeks. It's like, why? What do you think you're getting between week two and three? And instead, the negative is that you build up a fantasy in your head of who you think they are. And then when you meet up with them, even if they are great, they are not the exact version of great that you had built up in your head and then you're disappointed. And so even going back to the question where the people are like, I'm not attracted to people.

I show up on the date and I'm disappointed. One thing that that person might be doing is talking too long on the date, on the app, building up a perception of that person their head. And then when they meet up with that person in real life, they're inevitably disappointed. And going back to the sort of like playing games, making people work idea, is it okay for anybody to ask out the date to move it off app? Or is that unattractive, you know, making people work for it? Yeah.

I think anyone can do that. honestly, so much about this, so much about life is just how you frame something. And so a big thing right now is talking on the phone or doing a video chat before you meet up in person. That's something that started during the pandemic and I would say is here to stay. The worst case scenario is that you make it seem like a job screener like, hello, all possible dates must go through this screening. And if you are approved, then you will move forward in the application process. It's like, give me a break. No one wants to engage in that. And so, how can you bring it up in a way that feels casual? And so a guy in my class last night said to me,

I want to talk to women on the phone before we go out. If they say no to the phone call first, is that enough of a red flag that I shouldn't meet up with them at all? I was like, I just don't think so. I think maybe they could just like, that's an unfamiliar concept to you or to them or that makes them feel weird. And so maybe it's saying something like, seems like we have a lot of text chemistry. I'd love to see if we can keep up the conversation. I'm planning on going for a walk tonight at six. Can I give you a call then? And it's like, it fits into my life.

This is a thing that I do. I'm just kind of checking out how we're feeling and something like that. And then also saying like, let me know if that works for you. If not, let's meet up in person this weekend. Making it more flexible so that it's not like jump through these hoops to date me. It's more like this is a part of the journey. for us to get to know each other. And I do think assuming the positive intent, not assuming that if they don't want to talk, there's something wrong there, but just that's an obstacle that you can

overcome easily and quickly. Yeah. In general, like, I worked at Airbnb and that was one of our principals and it was really helpful to me. Like, you know, when you get a Slack message and you're just like, ah, this person is so annoying. And you just think that they're like out to get you. And then you're like, no, it has nothing to do with me. This is just like a normal message. And so assuming positive, intent in general, I think makes life better. Honestly, I think it makes like relationship significantly better once you're in the relationship. Right. And it's also like a way to get out of your own head. It's like probably this person is not thinking about you at all. They are not out to get you. Just they are living their life, doing their job. And it's actually like pretty

narcissistic to be like, oh, like this is a part of a greater plot. It's like, no, we're just all at work trying to get things time. Yeah. Just because we're the star of our own movie doesn't do everybody else is in our movie. Yeah. I have strong main character and her for sure. Look, I'm never going to make everything that I wear organic, but your sheets, your pillows, your comforter are literally touching your skin for eight hours every single night. That is a third of your life right there with one simple swap. And if your bedding is worn out, it's trapping heat or it's made with questionable materials, your sleep is going to suffer. And so will everything that depends on it. You want a bed, you deserve a bed that you are

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five-star reviews. The data backs everything up for a limited time. Get 15% off with code Liz at oneskin.com. slash Liz. Again, that's 15% off at oneskin.co with code Liz. So the other thing is that in researching my book, I spoke to this amazing woman named Helen Fisher. She is a biological anthropologist. And she talked about something called the negativity bias, which is that if you go back to human evolution, it was very good for your own safety to pay attention to things that were negative. And how she said it was, if you have five X girlfriends and one of them wants to kill you, it's a good thing to keep in mind which one that is. And so how she explained it is that our brains are actually very good at noticing and remembering

the negatives. And so if you're getting feedback at your job and you get five compliments and one point of feedback, you really focus on the feedback. And the same thing can happen in dating where it's really clear to tell what's not perfect about the person, what you wish you would change, you know, the one picture that's unflattering. And can you actively override that by looking for reasons to say yes, your brain will already look for reasons to say no. I like that. I've heard you speak to I feel like this goes hand in hand with your idea of a two-date minimum commitment. Can you talk about that for a second? Yeah, you know, you write a book. You're writing it on your own. It comes out and people have responses to different things. And so definitely fuck the spark has taken on a life of its own. And then

make the second date the default is one that people push back on a lot. And so the idea there is that many people are not great on first dates. They're nervous. They are more introverted. It just takes more time for them to open up. And so instead of saying, I'm going to go on the first date and if they knock it out of the park, I'll see them again. What if you say, I'm committing to at least two dates and that way that if they are the kind of person that takes longer to open up, you might see something on the second date that surprises you. And I've gotten so many DMs on Instagram from people who are like, I now have an amazing boyfriend because of this. And like my mom said I should see him again and I wouldn't have listened, but you said to make

the second date the default. So I did. I also get a ton of messages from people saying, what if the second date isn't great? Do I go on a third date? Do I go on a fourth date? Like it is a hard thing and I don't have a scientific answer. It's more of the concept of some people just don't spark on the first date and how can you make sure that you're still giving them a chance, even if they don't have that.

sparky or maybe more extroverted way of being. Well, and I like that it, I think you've talked about like it takes the pressure off the first state and it lets you have more of the normal conversations because you're not like, oh, I need to get all of the information I could ever have about this person in this one little period of time. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. So it's taking the pressure off. You're more relaxed and you're more in the experiential mindset than the evaluative mindset. Yeah, I really like that. Okay. I feel like I waste so much. time on apps, is there anything I can do to increase my efficiency? I would go back to my advice about having a stronger profile.

So your profile really matters, making your profile better. I've done this with so many clients. Sometimes they get a professional photo shoot. Sometimes they just go to the beach with a friend with a fancy iPhone and play with a puppy and take some cute candidates. Getting a better profile is going to have more people interested in you. It's also going to change the conversations that you're getting into. say you're just like you have on your profile that you don't know how to ride a bike. And every guy

for the last six years has been like, oh my God, why don't you know how to ride a bike? I'll teach you how to ride a bike. You're probably sick of that. Change your profile to get into different types of conversations, mix it up. And so number one is improving your profile. Number two is going after what you want and being more proactive about sending likes and comments. Number three is changing your filters. Are you focusing too much on age and height? can you be more flexible about both of those? Can you see who enters your life when you do that? And then number four is just being more open-minded in general and saying yes to people who you might not have said yes to in the past. I don't get the height thing. I know it's like such a huge thing on

apps and I'm also short. So I maybe don't get it for that reason. But I'm just like, are you worried about apps in general making the shallow more important than the the deep parts of somebody's personality that you can't really write out in a statistic or show in a photo. Yeah, I try to tell my clients, like, there's this concept that what we measure becomes what matters. And so the fact that we measure height makes height seem more important. And so what can you do to just override that? And the number one thing is just expanding your filters. And so, you know, I have female clients that are six foot one. And they're like, I don't want to go out with a guy who's five foot four. And people have a lot of complex feelings about height. But

in general, I think you could probably meet someone at a bar who's shorter than your height minimum and still be attracted to them and sort of channel that feeling and make your height and age requirements more flexible. I like the idea that what we measure is what matters because it even just being aware of that means like, oh, maybe this wasn't actually important innately. It's just been made to feel important because we've started talking about it so much. Yeah. And going back to the evolutionary biology, evolutionary cycle. psychology stuff. Like there is stuff going back to like, you know, people with clear skin had better genes and were healthier. And so you're attracted to them. And therefore, you know, you should mate with someone like that. But a lot of that stuff is basically outdated in our society when we have such good medical care systems. Somebody's could be like a very good provider. It doesn't matter how tall they are. They don't have to like beat up somebody else in your village. They might just be working at a tech job. And so we are. We are. We are. We are. kind of, you know, we are modern creatures with an operating system that is many thousands of

years old and sometimes it leads us astray. But what I can speak authoritatively on is the fact that people should be more flexible about height because it often matters less than you think. Okay. And then can you just end us on if I want to meet someone, but I'm very much over apps, do you have any recommendations for meeting people in real life? Yes. I love advising people on this. And my contribution to this is what I call the events decision matrix, which is a way of plotting possible events and saying what event should I go to. I love this. This is like one of the reasons I love how you approach all of this so much.

Yay. Thank you. We needed a voice like this in dating so much. Yay. That is so kind of you. So yeah, I developed this with a client. I don't know. When did I start like six years ago?

She was just like the apps are not working for me. And so we talked about having her go to more events, but she traveled a lot for her job. And so she had to prioritize the right ones. And so we created this matrix where every event that you could possibly go to, you plot along two lines. What is the likelihood that I would enjoy this event? And what is the likelihood that I would interact with someone? So the likelihood that you'll enjoy the event, why do I include that?

It's because something that you'll have fun at is going to bring out a good side of you. the type of people you like, maybe we'll be at that event. And even if you don't meet someone, at least you'll have a good time. You're not going to feel like it's a waste. And then likelihood of interaction is kind of obvious. It's like, well, are you going to be meeting people there or not? And so the types of events that you want to go to, the gold star events, are high likelihood of both. And so let's say that you love horror movies and there's a horror movie marathon, high likelihood of you'll enjoying it, but low likelihood of interaction. Let's say that there's a workout class, but you hate working out, high likelihood of interaction, low likelihood you'll enjoy it.

And so for this woman, what ended up in that upper right hand corner high likelihood of both was a Tana Hossi Coates book club. And so she went from having very few first dates to getting six guys' numbers in one night and then dating one of them for a while. And it really opened my eyes to the fact that some people just do better in person, certain events are just produce really high ROI. You know, you get that return on investment because it's the right type of event and that it doesn't mean you have to do one or the other. It means be on the apps, get the experience, get your reps in, but you can also be going to events where

you're going to meet the right kind of person. So obviously we can tell for ourselves if we're going to like something. Could you give us some more ideas for the things that we could be doing, the events, the activities where we would have a high likelihood of meeting somebody or interacting? Yeah. This one might be cliche, but I don't have a dog with some of my friends who have dogs. I just feel like we always chat with people at the dog park. There's just something about like you're half watching your dog, you're half talking to the person that I think makes people feel really comfortable and you have this thing to talk about, which is the dog. So that's a good one. Meetup.com. I feel like it was more of a thing like 10 years ago, but I did do a meetup event last week where I was a guest speaker for this author's book club. And people were really great. A lot of religious organizations have fun young people events. So I've been to like a bunch of youth Shabbats at the synagogue in San Francisco.

And you know, you kind of have to be like, is it going to be a bunch of other single people? What is this? But no, it's people who want to connect and have a community. And then this is an idea from my friend Misha where he said, people always go to events and think they'll meet someone. But you only see people once. if you actually volunteer and help put on those events, then you are part of the back-of-house team. You're getting to know people over time. And so he doesn't just – well, now he's found someone and it's great.

But he wouldn't just go to events. He would find organizations aligned with his interest, join the board, put on the events, and actually meet quality people and have quality relationships through that. I love that. That speaks to the familiarity point that we talked about, too. I think that's why sports teams work, too. I know so many people who do like club volleyball and they meet their partner that way. And it's because you're exposed over and over and over.

Yeah, that's a really good one. Yeah, I am not athletic at all. But yes, I know plenty of people who have met through being on co-ed soccer teams, being on volleyball teams, all of that. Well, this was so wonderful. I'm going to obviously hype up your book and all of that at the top of the episode. But is there anything you want to say in your own words about your book or your coaching work or anything like that? Sure. Yes.

If anyone's interested in learning more about me, they can go to my website, loganieri.com, and they can take the quiz there, which shows you your three dating tendencies or which tendency you have. They can also learn about my class called Date Smarter, where you learn with a community of other people and takes dating from something that's pretty lonely to something that you do in the community of others. And people can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at Logan Yuri. And can you just leave us on a note of, I think sometimes people don't want to spend money on improving their dating lives because they're like, oh my gosh, this must be lame. Like other people can do this naturally, et cetera. Can you kind of make us feel like less alone or more justified in approaching this?

Like we might approach anything else we want to improve upon in our lives? Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny. It's like, we'll hire a personal trainer. We'll hire accountant. We'll hire all these people to make our lives better. But then when it comes to dating, we're like, no, this is something that I should be born knowing how to do. And I just want to de-stigmatize asking for help on dating.

Love is natural. Dating is not. Dating is new in the span of human history. And if it's something that you really want and you have a goal around it, go after it, get help, find the support you need. What matters is that you achieve your goal, not who you asked for help along the way. Totally agree. Well, thank you so much, Logan. Yay.

It was so fun. Thanks for having me. I hope you loved this episode with Logan. Don't forget to head over to Instagram because we were doing that incredible giveaway. We're giving away a bunch of her books and a private virtual session with Logan so she can tackle all of your dating challenges. So head over to my Instagram. I am at Liz Moody.

And you can get all of the details over there. We're giving away a lot of stuff. So honestly, you have like a pretty good chance of winning. And if you love this episode, if you could just give it a quick rating or review on whatever podcast platform you listen on, I massively appreciate it. It's a really wonderful way to help support the podcast, although, as you know, the best way to support this podcast is to send it to somebody in your real life, send it to a friend, send it to your aunt, send it to your mom, send it to your little sister who keeps going on dates with toxic guys and you really want her

to be able to find the love of her life so that she can be happy and you guys can talk about other stuff, not that I'm speaking from personal experience in any way, shape, or form. I really appreciate how much you guys spread the word about this podcast. It honestly makes a huge difference. This podcast has grown so much just in the last six months. It's honestly mind-blowing. And I am so grateful for every single one of you who has decided to join our little family. And if you are a new person here, if somebody sent you this episode or you just clicked on it on Instagram, welcome.

I'm so happy to have you here. Don't forget to hit that follow or subscribe button on whatever platform that you are listening on. so you don't miss out on any future episodes. They drop every single Wednesday. We have some really, really, really good ones coming up that I am so excited to share. All right, that is it from me. And I will see you next Wednesday on the next episode of the Healthier Together podcast.