The Liz Moody Podcast - How To Drink Less Without Feeling Boring, Judged, Or Stressed With Therapist Amanda E. White

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

On today’s episode, I’m interviewing Amanda E. White and together we’re answering questions that all of you sent in about challenges you’ve run into with drinking less. Amanda is the author of the amazing book Not Drinking Tonight: A Guide to Creating a Sober Life You Love, which I highly recommend. She has hundreds of thousands of followers on her amazing Instagram account @therapyforwomen and she’s a licensed therapist and I can’t think of anyone better to answer your questions about sobriety and even just being more intentional with alcohol. On the episode we get into: what to do with friends instead of going to bars how to turn off your brain or chill out after work without booze what to do when others think you’re judging them for continuing to drink how to still have a ton of fun without alcohol + what to do if you miss feeling drunk how to deal with people’s questions about drinking, including the dreaded “are you pregnant?” the best recommendations for non-alcoholic drinks (+ how to order at bars!)  how to address money issues around not drinking, including splitting tabs  an exact script for what to say when people ask why you’re not drinking what to do if your partner or other loved ones drink how to get over the self-conscious feeling of going out or talking to strangers sober   tips for dating while sober (+ one thing you should NEVER do)  and so much more!  We would LOVE to hear from you any thoughts, reactions, or takeaways you have as you’re listening, so definitely screenshot and tag me @lizmoody and Amanda @therapyforwomen on Instagram.  To join the Healthier Together Podcast Club Facebook group, go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/healthiertogetherpodcast. This episode is sponsored by Levels. Sign up at levels.link/HEALTHIERTOGETHER to receive an additional two free months of your Levels membership. This episode is sponsored by Seed. You can get 15% off your first month's supply of Seed's DS-01™ Daily Synbiotic by going to seed.com/daily-synbiotic and using the code LIZMOODY.  This episode is sponsored by AG1 by Athletic Greens. Visit athleticgreens.com/healthiertogether and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today.  This episode is sponsored by Pique. Get 5% off plus a free blooming teas pouch complete with premium Pique samples when you purchase 2 or more cartons from piquetea.com/LIZMOODY and use code LIZMOODY.  Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and long-time journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're getting doctor-recommended tips for supporting our immune health, hearing the secrets to making friends as an adult, or learning all of the best productivity tips to create an amazing morning routine. And yes, those are all real episodes, so if any of those topics sound good to you, scroll on back in the archives.

Today, we are back with the third and final episode in our series all about exploring our relationship with alcohol. While you definitely don't need to have listened to the previous two episodes to enjoy this one, I highly recommend going back in doing so. We've covered how alcohol impacts our gut health, our cancer risk, our brain health, and our hormone health. And we've learned exactly what to do to mitigate all of those negative health effects. They are not scary episodes at all. All of the doctors that I interviewed still drink themselves. but they are so empowering and they'll give you so many facts that will just absolutely blow your mind.

I cannot stop talking about the alcohol and period connection or the stem cell stunning thing, which is crazy or how it stays in our saliva for hours after we drink and it raises our risk of cancer that way. It's wild, wild information that I did not know and I can't believe we don't talk about more regularly. So go back. Those are the previous two episodes of this podcast. On today's episode, I'm interviewing Amanda E. White. and together we're answering questions that all of you sent in about challenges that you've run into with drinking less. Amanda is the author of the amazing book Not Drinking Tonight, a guide to creating a sober life that you love, which I highly recommend.

She has hundreds of thousands of followers on her amazing Instagram account, Therapy for Women, and she's a licensed therapist. And I can't think of anyone better to answer your questions about being more intentional with alcohol. On this episode, we get into what to do with friends instead of going to bars, how to turn your brain off or chill out after work without booze, what to do when other people think that you're judging them for continuing to drink. So like how to not be a downer in social situations? How to still have a ton of fun without alcohol, plus what to do if you miss feeling drunk? How to deal with people's questions about not drinking, including the dreaded, are you

pregnant? The best recommendations for non-alcoholic drinks, plus exactly how to order at bars, how to address money issues around not drinking, including splitting tabs, exactly what to say when people ask why you're not drinking, like literally an exact script for that situation, what to do if your partner or other loved ones drink, how to get over the self-conscious feeling of going out or talking to strangers completely sober, tips for dating while sober, plus the one thing that you should never, ever, ever do, and so much more. Amanda and I would love to hear your thoughts and your biggest takeaways as you're listening to the episode. So definitely screenshot

and tag us both on Instagram. I am at Liz Moody and she is at Therapy for Women. If something resonates with you from the episode or you can think of someone in your life that would benefit from hearing this conversation, please, please share it with them. You can even use the episode as a conversation starter like a jumping off point with friends or family members to talk about all of this stuff. I cannot thank you enough for continuing to share the podcast in text to friends at the dinner table with family on Slack with coworkers. The last two episodes of this series have been trending on Spotify since they came out,

and it is all because of you, and it is so appreciated. If you are new here, make sure that you're following the podcast on whatever platform you listen on. You're just going to go to the main podcast page. That's the one that lists all of the episodes of the Healthier Together podcast, and you'll see the word follow under the logo on Spotify. And then there's a little follow with a plus sign button on the top right of that same page on Apple Podcasts. You're going to hit that button on Spotify or on Apple podcasts or wherever else you listen to podcasts. We are back to our regular programming next week and we have

some amazing episodes coming up, including one all about the secrets of entrepreneurial success, Hacks for the best sleep of your life. A few juicy sex episodes with some very cool science-based tips that I had never heard before and so, so much more. So make sure that you're following so you do not miss out. Okay, let's get right into answering all of your questions and solving all of your problems with Amanda White. Amanda, I am so happy to have you here.

I am so excited for you to share all of your wisdom. I have a lot of really tricky questions that I've had. had a hard time navigating myself here. So I'm excited to hear what you're going to say. Thank you so much for having me on. And I'm excited to tackle these questions. Okay, so let's just dive in. First question, these are all from listeners. I think that I'm fun when I'm not drinking. I've really trained myself to let go of my inhibition and just be silly, but I don't think that other people are as fun. So I find myself pushing my friends to drink even as I stay sober. Is there any way to make other people or the whole hang?

out in general more fun without alcohol? That's a great question. I think that sometimes when we're sober, our perception can be a little bit skewed with whether people are actually having fun or not. We can be a little bit sensitive sometimes to thinking that people aren't having fun if they're not drinking or feel like we need to overly champion that people can drink so that people don't think that we're uptight or things like that. But I also really love the idea of creating an event that doesn't revolve around alcohol. Like alcohol could be still present, but doing something that it's not just going to a bar. It's not just having people over to drink. I'm a really big fan of like activities, like playing a board game, going axe throwing, going ice skating,

going bowling, doing something where there's an activity for people to do that isn't just about alcohol and people can focus on it and then drink if they want to. So we'll dive into part two in a second, but for part one, do you have any advice for turning off that part of your brain where you are kind of monitoring? Is everybody having fun right now? That's such a good way to put it because that is what it is. We're monitoring ourselves. We're more sensitive to it because we know that this is.

happening. My big advice is kind of practice. It's not always the most fun advice to give, but I think that when we're newly sober or newly kind of cutting back on drinking, we can be more sensitive to it. And a lot of times it takes experience of just doing it more and recognizing that it's not as big of a deal as people think it is. But you can also like reality check. She could ask someone, I'm having this concern that people aren't having enough fun. Are you you having fun? Like really reality checking, I think, with people too because they may find that their perceptions are off base than what that person is actually experiencing. That makes sense. And then for part two, a lot of people were struggling with what are the fun things to do that

aren't going to a bar. And I think you suggested some and they're very good suggestions. But a comment I got over and over was they always feel like they're more high effort, high energy activities. And going to a bar after work is just like a very quick, very easy way to catch up with a friend. So how do we replace the simplicity of that in our very busy lives? Not every city does this apply to, but I have been excited in the past couple years to see more bars are offering mocktails, non-alcoholic drinks. If that's something that is happening in your area, be sure to take advantage of that.

We want to support that and kind of keep that going. Or even getting dinner with someone, going out for ice cream, going out for coffee, doing something that's still very similar that doesn't require a ton of planning. But maybe the focus is just on we're getting dessert instead of we're going to drink and catch up. I feel like there's infinite ideas, especially in the summer months more. but in the winter it just tends to be trickier. It's when I want to go be cozy and do a trivia night and things like that. I'm all about ordering the non-alcoholic drink at the bar,

although I also get very annoyed when it's like the same price as the alcoholic drink. And I'm just like, I'm paying for sparkling water right now. And then like going to a restaurant, love it too. I'm obviously a person who really enjoys food, but it's a more expensive choice. And I think sometimes there's a frustration that even though you're saving money on not drinking, and it can almost feel like more expensive to fill that hole if that makes sense. That definitely makes sense. And I feel you.

I think that it is frustrating, especially when it's something that's really simple, like a pineapple juice. Yeah. And you're like, is this $12? What's your go-to order when you're out at bars? It depends where I am. For a safe order that I know everyone will be able to do, it's club soda and lime. My hack is kind of if you go to a place that has a good cocktail menu, maybe they have lavender syrup, maybe they have fresh basil. You can kind of understand that they have the ingredients

for a good moktail. I will typically say, can you make me a macktail based on this cocktail without alcohol? And it works most of the time. If you go to a bar, though, that sells mostly beer and wine, they may only have juice and they may give you a moktail that's juice and club soda, which isn't great. That was one of the questions was that all of the mottails tend to be, higher sugar because people are relying on those flavored syrups to get the flavor into the drink. Do you have any advice for that? I cut everything with water because most of the time it is really sugary. If I'm out with someone, I'll have like my husband take a big sip and I will just add water and ice to it. And then you're hydrating too, which is nice. So it takes a little time sometimes.

Someone gave me the other day pineapple juice and grenad eat as a mocktail. And I tried really hard to dilute that one and it did not work. My thing I always do, whether I'm drinking an alcoholic drink or a non-alcoholic drink, is I'll ask for half of whatever simple syrup that they're using concretely. Because if you do less, it's an arbitrary number, but I just say half as much of whatever simple syrup. I also find it tends to make for a more balanced drink. Like I think that a lot of places tend to oversweeten. And then other mocktail things to look out for is people will use black tea a lot, especially

in higher end bars, because you'll get the tannins, you'll get the acidity, it adds some complexity and nuance that you would get from a cocktail. I can't do caffeine. So now I always have to remind myself to ask for something that is half as much of the simple syrup. And then also I say nothing with caffeine. Please don't use any espresso. Please don't use any black tea because those things can sneak into a lot of the mocktails out there.

That is a really good point with the tea. I love kombucha. And I think that's one of the reasons kombucha is so interesting. It's a tea base, which you have to watch out for at night, for instance, as well. If you're using kombucha as an alcohol substitute, which I think a lot of people do, it's sparkly, it's busy, it's fun. But it does have often caffeine in it. And if you have issues with caffeine, which I'm raising my head. I certainly do. I have to watch out for that. What do you drink when you're at home? When you have like the ability to buy any ingredients you want? I have a couple of things that I love. I still always get hangarings for margaritas. That was the one thing that was really hard for me to fill and find. And there is an alcohol substitute called seed lip that I love. Some of the other alcohol-free stuff are meant to really mimic the taste of tequila or rum or things like that. It doesn't taste.

very good to me. I've been sober for too long, I think. But I love seed lip because it adds an interesting element. It's very dry. The one I use is like a citrus kind of essence. And I will make it pretty sour with lime juice, some simple syrup, that. And I love salt. So I'll do a salt rim. So I love making those at home. And I also really love there's a brand called Groovy that makes alcohol-free sparkling wine that I really love. So they have a rosé and a prosaico that aren't too sweet. I've tried wines that are de-alcoholized wines where it's clear that it was alcohol or it was wine and then they took it out. Again, I've like been sober too long. I'm just like, this doesn't do anything for me. It needs to taste a little good. That's fair. Have you ever tried

drinking vinegar? I haven't. I think I've heard of it. Is that your go-to? It's a My go-to. I'm obsessed with it. I love it so much. So you can buy it at my local farmer's market, but there's also a brand called Acid League that makes it and distributes it more widely. And it's literally just flavored vinegar. So you get a little bit of the digestive benefits, the blood sugar benefits from vinegar, which I really like, especially with a meal or something like that. But I'll put it into spin drift or I'll put it into sparkling water. And it's a little sour, a little tangy, it's complex, it's nuanced. I am obsessed with it. And there's infinite flavors because you can make a vinegar out of anything. So it's really fun. I need to try that. I'm always looking for

new interesting things to try. And I would say to that point, I think sometimes it can feel daunting. You're like, oh, what do I drink if I'm not drinking alcohol? I've practiced drinking alcohol for so long. How can I fill this whole in my life? But what you just said, you're like, oh, I'm excited. I'm always looking for these new things. I think if you treat it like something that can spice up your life, that can feel like a little bit more of an adventure or something. new and interesting you can bring to every day. It's an opportunity instead of a beast of burden, if that makes sense. And I think that can make it feel really fun. I totally agree. Because I think one of the challenges, too, is the non-alcoholic stuff is almost as expensive, especially if you're

getting a spirit, right, or a wine or something. And then if you're getting it, it's probably not at your local store. So you're having to go online and get it shipped to you. And like the shipping cost is expensive. And I think that can be a challenge for people ordering. So there's actually a website that I really love. Oh my gosh, I'm forgetting it off the top of my head. We'll put it in the show notes. They only sell non-alcoholic stuff. They have like gift packs and you can try different ones. It's really great for that where you can sample for sure. And also, I don't know the best way to articulate this, but isn't there something interesting with the fact that we're like, oh, I'm paying for this so I want to feel the effect, but you're feeling the effect of alcohol, right?

right? So you're going to feel buzz or whatever. But also you're feeling the effect of potentially remembering less of your night, potentially feeling like crap the next day. We have this idea that alcohol costs a lot of money and that things that don't have a lot of alcohol shouldn't cost a lot of money because we're not getting the quote unquote effects of alcohol. But I actually wonder if you really consider the value of what you're getting if that distinction wouldn't feel so important. If that makes sense. I totally agree with that. When I was first kind of experimenting, I used to get very caught up. in saving money and this is ridiculous. And my husband drinks. And it would be funny because I would not

get the macktail because I'd be like, that's ridiculous for the macktail. But then he would get like two drinks. And I would be like, this is kind of dumb at some point. I also have a right to enjoy and live my life. And maybe this is where I would have spent money like you said on alcohol anyway. I really feel like it enhances my life. I feel like there is something concrete about being able to try a new drink, experiment with some flavor profiles. Everyone obviously is different, but it feels very worth it for me once I started to recognize what it was actually enhancing and what it was doing for my life. Yeah, maybe it's an opportunity to have a conversation with yourself about what you actually value and what you spend money on that actually brings that value into your life. I think it's even harder

if you're someone who isn't totally sober and you still spend money on drinking. I think it can be easier to fall into the trap of I don't want to drink anything good that's like a mocktail or pay for it and I'm just going to save my money for alcohol. But like you said, I mean, there's other prices that you pay. It feels actually wild that I can go out. I can spend the money in a mocktail, which again, I'm not saying I'm totally comfortable with it. But then the next day, I'm not paying the price in feeling like crap. I wake up feeling refreshed. I wake up feeling great. I think there's a real interesting cost benefit. Also, I've given myself complete carte blanche to get all of the fun, different drink options now that I'm not a drinker. So I'll do like all of the

oly pop-pop and poppy sodas and all the different tapaches and kombucha flavors. Because in the greater picture, I am saving so much money. So I'm like, girl, you can spend $2.99 on a can of soda, even if it makes you want to throw up to spend $2.99 on a can of soda. You're saving so much on the liquid consumption as a whole that you've earned that. And that feels really fun. I mean, it's rare that I'm sitting at my house and like pounding multiple mocktails, you know? Like I have one or two and I don't want anymore. I'm never like, oh my God, I need to have so many of these. So I think that's important to remember too. Most of the times, even if maybe it is more expensive, it's really unlikely that you're going to be at a bar at home and ordering many

of them. Where if you're drinking, you're probably getting like two to three drinks to feel that a fact. When it comes to wellness, you're going to get the best results by focusing on the big needle movers. A lot of us spend a lot of time trying to optimize that last 1%, which creates a ton of stress and it actually doesn't help our help that much. At the top of the needle mover list, sleep. And one of the best ways to optimize your sleep is to optimize your mattress, which is why I love avocado green mattress so much. First of all, this mattress is so comfortable. I have the one with the pillow top, which is medium firm, and it's just, a dream. I miss it when I travel. It's better than even the fanciest hotel beds. Having a mattress

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certainly nobody told me, starting around age 30, are mitochondria naturally. become less efficient. More get damaged, more become sluggish, and over time that impacts your energy, your strength, your recovery, and your resilience. Most of us respond by pushing more. We're like noticing these things and we're adding in more protein. We're trying to fix it with more supplements. We're trying to do harder workouts. And those things do help. But timelines research suggests that we also need to be supporting the cellular machinery underneath. And that is exactly what their supplement mitopure does. It contains your relationship. which helps your body clear out damage mitochondria and support healthier ones so that your cells

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age with mitopure gummies from Timeline. Visit Timeline.com slash Liz and save up to 39% on your Rito Peer Gummies. That is timeline.com slash Liz. While we're on the topic of money, do you have any other sort of cost-saving tips as somebody is navigating a sober curious lifestyle, whether it's on the entertainment that you're doing or the drinks you're consuming or any sort of money-related advice? Yeah. Let me also say that the better roads is the name of the website that just popped into my head, the one where you can sample and try different things. I think I actually put them in my holiday gift guide this year. They have really great gift baskets. And I also think that what's interesting

is sometimes people feel this pressure when they go out that they can't just order a club soda or something when they're out. And there is this weird pressure sometimes that comes where you feel like you're offending the bartender or offending the waiter. And I think it's important to remember that you are getting something and you have a right to choose and you don't have to succumb to that peer pressure. A lot of times when I work with clients, that's something that they feel this guilt, that their bill isn't expensive enough. I felt that. And I think remembering too, like, you can give them a better tip. The only other money tip I have is you also have a right to if you're out drinking with people and you're not drinking to not pay for their alcohol. Ooh. How does that

work in practice? Can you talk me through like, we're all buying rounds and you want to not participate without feeling like a stick in the mud. I think the key is having the conversation beforehand. I think if you wait to have the conversation until the bill comes, it often comes across more as like you're a stickler. Instead, preemptively being like, I'm excited to go out with you guys. Like, I want to be here. I want to hang out with you. Just, you know, I'm not drinking tonight. So I'd like to have a separate tab and just kind of preemptively putting it out there. And I think when people are sober, they understand that. Once they get drunk, they may not.

They may not understand it. So have the conversation earlier. That actually leads me to a question that I got sent in, which is, I don't know how to say that I'm not drinking without sounding like I'm criticizing other people because I'm doing it for health reasons. So it makes it sound like I think they're going to die. And then I think other people associate that negative feeling with me and want to invite me out less. It's subtle and maybe subconscious, but it feels very real because they don't want to

feel judged. I mean, that is a tough one. I think that's one of the biggest challenges of when someone stops drinking is there is this idea that people are judging them, even if you're absolutely not. And I think most people aren't. They make the choice for themselves. I think it's important to be careful about the reasons that you give, why you don't drink. I think that often we can get very caught in having the right reason that someone will accept. When we blame the reason, right, for why we're not drinking, it often becomes a judgment about if the reason is good enough. And people sometimes will get very eager to solve the problem called, I want to drink, but I have this reason that I can't. And that's where I think shifting it a little bit to being

less about the reason and being more just like, I don't feel like drinking. I don't like drinking as much anymore or I'm realizing that I have more fun when I don't drink or the consequences of drinking are just not worth it for me anymore. I think it can be more about our decision and like owning it compared to whether someone thinks our reason is good enough or not. And if it's a health reason, they could think that maybe we're judging them because it might be negatively impacting their health. Well, that's the issue that I run into is I get really excited about sharing all of the knowledge that I've acquired about the impacts of alcohol on our health.

This is the third episode in a series that we're doing. The first two episodes are literally doctors sharing the impacts of alcohol in our health, which are very, very real. So I almost feel an obligation to tell people, I'm like, wow, if you don't understand that alcohol is connected to cancer, that alcohol doesn't just impact your living. I need to tell you that. But then, of course, like, nobody wants to invite out the girl who's like, do you know that alcohol is staying in your saliva for hours after your drink and it's more likely to cause mouth and throat cancer? That's not like a fun person to be. So do you think that literally just shutting up about that is the move, like let people come to that information in their own time, even if you love them and you genuinely care about their health? I think that it depends on the person.

I think if you don't know them very well, I definitely wouldn't share it. I think sharing it at a bar when someone's already drinking is hard because I think being selective about when you share that. You can tell if someone's interested in health, if you're friends with someone and she or he is someone who you have like deep conversations with about health, about the world, about things going on in your life, I think that they probably are a lot more receptive than someone is kind of your fun friend who you don't know super well or maybe they're just someone that you enjoy their company, but you guys don't get really deep. So I think it depends on the person. I think if you're concerned that someone in your life is drinking a lot or that

person has a history of cancer, it's your family member. I think being honest and sharing with them, you can ask, can I share some things that I learned about alcohol with you? They also have a right to say no or after we share once, not be interested anymore. And that's a very important. And that's choice. Do you have any advice for when it is somebody that we really love and we've told them all the information that we have and they are continuing to drink and we feel invested in their health and their health outcomes? I think unfortunately it comes to attraction rather than promotion. You can share how great it is for you. You could encourage them to try some non-alcoholic beverages or share some information if they're interested in it. But I do think at the end of the day, us trying to

change someone's mind is not super effective typically, as much as it's painful. Well, it's frustrating, especially I got a lot of people who were navigating. They were trying to drink less, but their partner who they're living with every single day wasn't interested in it. And they were having a really hard time navigating that situation. Do you have any advice for somebody where their partner is continuing to drink when they're trying not to? This is, I think, another really, really challenging area.

And it's so much harder when it's someone you live with. It's someone you see every day. It's someone who maybe you guys did have certain routines and rituals where you guys did drink together. You have a right to set boundaries. That's really important to remember. Even if you do live with someone, you have a right to say, I don't feel comfortable going to the bar with you. I also think the idea of boundary negotiation is important. And what I mean by that is if you live with someone, if you share a space, it may be that you can't just say, I don't want any alcohol in the house anymore because they live there too. But it's coming up with what can we negotiate? Maybe we can have a separate wine fridge or a separate area where we keep the alcohol so that I don't have to see it when I open up the fridge every morning. Or maybe you keep

less alcohol in the house and you only kind of buy what you're going to drink every week so that there isn't a huge surplus or maybe the person's supportive of you and they're fine with not keeping alcohol in the house and they drink outside of the house or something like that. A big thing that can happen when you stop drinking, you become really present. And it's hard sometimes to spend time with someone, especially your partner and you watch their presence disappears when you're sitting across from them at dinner. So maybe also having a conversation about asking if one night a week or every other date night, they cannot drink so that you can also have that presence with them. But it's really hard.

This is maybe tapping into more of the general therapist side of you. But I think a lot of these social questions come down to we don't like to allow the people that we love to change. And when we love people, we get nervous when they change. Because if they change, it could mean they're not going to love us in this. same way. They're not going to be able to show up for us in the same way. Our relationship is going to be fundamentally different. And I think that happens with the partner who stops drinking. Your partner's looking at you. And they're like, well, what does that mean about our relationship?

What does that mean about all these times that I've categorized as fun that we've had together in my brain? Do you not think those are fun anymore? Do you not think I'm fun anymore? Do you have any tips for either us helping the people we love navigate the fact that we're changing or us dealing with change ourselves. This is such a good point. You really hit the nail on the head with it comes down to us being, or people being afraid. People in general like to keep the status quo, even if it means that the status quo is unhealthy a lot of times. And any change can feel like a threat to the relationship. One thing to remember is that relationships are always in flux. Even if we don't necessarily identify it, it can feel like this is the biggest change that is possibly happening.

But people get new jobs. People lose their jobs. People have to move. Family members die. Friends come in and out of our lives. We get new hobbies. We lose interests. We have kids. My advice would be try to back up, look at this from kind of the bigger perspective of this may be one challenge you guys have to navigate in your relationship, but there will always be challenges and changes. And this can be a way to work through that and prepare you for other challenges and changes that are going to eventually happen in your relationship because to be human is to grow and change. I love that. And if you're the partner who is changing, would you recommend saying to maybe your partner who wants to continue drinking? Like, look at all of these changes that we've

navigated together, like pointing that out and then just saying this is just one, like kind of articulating that from the other side. Yes, I think that's a great way to put it. And I think you can remind, I mean, I think that's where not pressuring the person to change with you, not pressuring them to not drink is really important because people often resist what we try to make them do. And it's going to feel like much more of a threat if someone's saying, I'm not drinking and I really don't want you to drink either and let's make this change together. And they're going to be more open or more interested in some of the positive effects. If you demonstrate how it's improving your life, you demonstrate that maybe you're a better partner when you're not drinking. You guys maybe get

into less fights because you're the one who in the fight can say, we're going to talk about this in the morning. Or you can come home from the bar and have sex because you're not wasted. I feel like that's very persuasive for a partner, you know? Absolutely. I think reminding them maybe of some of the benefits that they're going to get from this new version of you. And you can tell them, like, it's your life. I'm not going to pressure you. I just want to share with you some of the benefits that I've received from this. Okay, I have two bows I want to put on that. One, do you have any therapist tips for letting go of the fear of like, oh, my partner is hurting their health with this? or, oh, my dad is hurting his health with this.

It's hard in general for us to let go of things, especially with people that we care about and we love. You're invested in them staying alive. 100%. I think remembering that there is risk to everything in life. Driving a car is risky. Walking down the street is risky. Having a child is risky.

Everyone has a different level of risk tolerance. So just because you've decided, based on your research, that, drinking isn't a risk you're willing to take, unfortunately doesn't mean that you get to make that choice for someone else. We all have different risk tolerances. I really think coming back to, if you really want them to change, the best chance they have of changing is through being inspired rather than forced in any way. Makes sense. And then second, bow, is just to go back to what we were initially talking about when you're out at the bar, the best thing to say is just, I'm not drinking.

Like, don't get into it. Don't dive deep. It's just, what are the words you would specifically have, like, script it for us? Absolutely. My big thing with that is you want to say something that someone can't solve your problem, right? Like, what I think is so interesting is if you go to the bar and you say, I'm not drinking because I have to get up and move tomorrow, or I have a race. or I'm on this medication, people generally will be like, I'll help you move in the morning.

Then you can drink. Or, well, tell me the medication. My dad's a doctor. I have a study to prove that you can drink on it. So anything you can say that keeps the ownership on you, if you're someone who's just experimenting with not drinking and you're not ready to commit, I think you can say something very simple, like, I'm just not drinking tonight. I don't feel like drinking tonight. I'm taking a break from drinking. If it's something that has been

a decision for you for a while and you want to make it clear that you don't drink anymore, I think you could say drinking just doesn't work with my life anymore. I could say what was preventing me from meeting my goals or my health goals or it's just something I just feel like I'm over at this point in my life. In my book, I have, I think, 20 responses that people can use. And I think this is the really important part too is sometimes people will still say why after you give that reason. Right? If you say, I'm not drinking tonight, people may say why. And that's where it's really tempting to give the reason. And it's remembering that you can say the same thing over and over again. Melissa Urban wrote a book called The Book of Boundaries and I had her on the podcast.

We did a boundary practice together where we kind of faked a boundary and she just kept repeating the same thing over. It felt so powerful. I was just like, wow. Look at you. You don't have to change and twist yourself to come up with a new better reason every single time. That is powerful. I do like being vague but firm because then you're not inviting people to solve your problems like

you said. and you're also not judging people for their choices and feeling like a wet blanket. I think vague but firm is really nice. After a glass or two of wine, I feel significantly looser and have a wave of calm. And I don't know how to replicate that in real life without it. Even if I know I'm still that person deep down, it is too hard to get that person out. I think this is a big thing that stops people from questioning their relationship with alcohol. Is that calm?

I mean, what I can say scientifically that happens is you are not actually calm. You may feel calm, but what's happening is the front part of your brain that makes all those decisions that's kind of like the chatter in your head that surveys what other people are thinking or saying or doing just goes offline. So you're not actually calm. You're just numb is what I would say to this person. It might not feel exactly the same, but there are other ways to actually reduce the stress in your nervous system, actually kind of bring your heart right down. Things like physical exercise, meditation, yoga, going for a walk, mindfulness, being in your body in some capacity.

But a lot of times people don't ever have the chance or the desire to explore that because alcohol is such an easy button that we can press. Well, I think that's the thing is that, yes, I know I could do yoga or take a walk or go for a hike or all these things. But again, it feels more high effort. Same with the social activities without alcohol. Like, I know they exist, but I have to call up all my friends and be like, guys, we're doing a game night. And then I have to find a game and blah, blah, and convince people. I can picture my girlfriends right now who are like, I hate games, you know? And like, I have to be like, no, games are really fun.

Organized fun is the shit. It feels more high effort than just like open a bottle, pour glass. And I think that maybe the acceptance is the thing about being sober or not drinking. It's a more intentional life. Like that is the thing about it. I don't think anything will be as easy as drinking because of the culture, because of the access, because of the way our society is set up. It's shifting away from trying to replicate the exact same thing.

And instead, thinking about, yes, my life is going to require more effort to do certain things. It will always be a little bit more challenging for me to relax maybe than someone else. But I've decided that it's worth it because of all these amazing benefits that I get. And I would rather be alive and present during the difficult moments of my life because I want to experience them rather than hitting that easy button. It reminds me of the dopamine episode of the podcast we did almost, which was about how when we do hard, things, it actually makes it easier for us to experience pleasure because we're bringing our dopamine into balance. And I feel like it's a similar but different thing to what you're talking about, which is instead of looking for the easy way out of not drinking, recognize it's going to be

hard, but the joy and the pleasure and the sensation, the feelings you're going to bring into your life are also going to be stronger. The difficulty is going to be stronger, but so are all of the positives as well, instead of trying to still find that middle ground, which exists with drinking, but is also part of the problem. We're almost trying to recreate part of the thing that is part of the problem. Right. We are, as human beings, not meant to be happy, calm, be able to just exit out of our bodies at all points. And to your point, I think that's exactly right, that when we get used to just using alcohol, when you numb the bad or you numb the anxiety, you're also numbing the richness of the experience. You're numbing the full presence of it when someone

touches your hand for the first time and that spark of electricity and are they going to hold my hand longer? Are they going to let go? That's numb when you drink. It's like thinking about how special things were sometimes when you were a little kid and how it was intense, but the intensity of good things was also more present too. It's choosing to have, yes, things might be more difficult in your life, but when you drink consistently, your dopamine levels literally change in your brain and it takes more for you to feel that effect over time, even just not drinking. Like it takes more interesting excitement in your life for you to feel excited. What's the choice that you're not going to be able to just easily calm down maybe at the end of the day or shut off your brain, but the richness

of the experience is also going to be there. Do you have any other post work rituals that you recommend? Maybe it's not going to be that like instant numbing, calming, but I do think people are looking for a way to say the work day is over, switch their mental state in that way. What would you recommend? I think if they are in the habit of drinking at the end of the day and there is, interested in exploring mocktails, I do think that can sometimes be, I mean, it doesn't have to be pouring a glass of alcohol-free wine necessarily. It could be brewing a cup of tea. It could be grabbing a kombucha or a can of seltzer. Often what I ask people is when you pour that glass of wine at the end of the day and you sit on your couch and you're like, the day is over,

Does it happen before you finish that glass of wine? Or do you feel that way after? And most of us can identify it actually happens after we've poured the glass, but before we drink it. Sometimes before we even have a sip. Wow. And that is a really clear message that it's actually not about the alcohol. It is about the ritual of doing that and what it represents. It's about the permission giving for me.

An interesting challenge I have had as a person who has a person who has a a hard time stopping working is that there's the permission giving when I pour the glass and I'm like, oh, I'm going to be impaired so I won't be able to work even if I want to. And I think translating that permission giving when I'm not going to be impaired is almost a little tricky. That's a really good point. It could be turning your phone onto airplane mode or shutting down your computer, doing something where you are kind of detached from work and you're offline, I think could be a good way to kind of combine that or maybe even going for a walk outside or taking a shower, changing your clothes, doing something so that it does signify to your brain that there has been a

change and the workday is done. What do you usually do at the end of your workday to signal that it's over? I normally go for a walk. I also like change into pajamas like immediately. I mean, you're laughing. But when you're thinking about that like a feeling, Is there an awe feeling like taking off your work clothes and putting on a robe or pajamas? I actually think it mimics that feeling in a really resonant way. I mean, taking off a bra. I haven't worn bras in years, but I distinctly remember the feeling of taking one off. Right, like taking a shower or two and getting dressed into different clothes.

I think it's very similar. I love that. Okay. I love the feeling of being drunk and I hate being around drunk people when I'm sober. It's hard to face the discomfort of not having that numbing. I also end up being the mom of the group every time. I think this has shades of the previous question, but it also has some different elements. So I love your thoughts.

It does definitely happen for sure. I think especially if you're newly sober, it can kind of be like a wake-up call when you're sober and you start seeing how ridiculous drunk people are. It can be a little bit of a shock sometimes. Some people don't care and they don't mind. Some people think it's hilarious and think it's funny to watch drunk people. And some people think drunk people are really annoying and they don't want to be around it. So really, I want to tell this listener, they have a right to feel how they feel and they don't have to make themselves feel a different way.

It doesn't make them a bad person that they like being drunk and then they've discovered that drunk people are annoying. It may change over time too, the longer you don't drink. How you feel about drunk people can also change. But really sloppy drunk people, I think that you're having to take care of. I get it. No one really loves being in that position, especially when they're people like you love. And I think it can be intimidating as you're embarking on a less alcohol journey. I think a lot of people are like, well, if people make you feel bad about not drinking, just get new friends.

Or if your friends are annoying and they're always drinking, just get new friends. And it's like, okay, making friends as an adult is like one of the hardest things to do on the planet anyways, not just a matter of like, oh, okay, I'll like send those in and I'll get a replacement set of friends. It's really tricky. And I think that can be really intimidating for a lot of people. Do you have any advice there? That's such a great point. We in general as a society can be so quick to just be like, done. I'm cutting you off. You did something that I don't like, where especially if you've had these friends for years, it is normal for friendships to wax and wane and go through periods of time where you're closer or you're less close. And instead of it being so black and white

of you're my friend or I'm done with you, I think having some compassion that maybe you need some space from some people. Maybe you're not going to go out in the same way that you did. Maybe there's people that you'd like to have more one-on-one time with or reach out to them and ask them to go to brunch or do something that doesn't involve just going out to the bar. But it doesn't mean that you have to cut them off necessarily because friendships change. People have kids, people get married, people's drinking habits sometimes change throughout their lives too. And just because they're in a different point of life than you are doesn't mean you guys can't maintain some kind of a friendship or it won't change in the future if you guys keep in touch and stuff. I've found really helpful

with my friends who are in more of a drinking phase of their life to become their friend that they can do all the stuff that they want to do that isn't going to the bars with. So like I'm their hiking friend. I'm their manifestation board friend. I'm their watch rom-coms and bake friends. Like I think that allowing them to speckle in all these little moments instead of continuing to go to the bar with them feeling frustrated by the person that maybe they become when they drink. And then I'm like, oh, this isn't my friend that I want to have these conversations with. It's almost about acknowledging that people are different in different environments and setting the stage for the type of environment that you feel that friendship flourishes in.

A lot of times we can be like, well, our friendship's great. It should be great here, here, here, here, and here. But actually, the environment's really important for teasing out those elements that create the dynamic that maybe you're interested in. Absolutely. And I think that's where it comes to people. have such high expectations on friends. And it's like those friends need to be everything to me. I need to be able to go out with them, go to brunch with them, go hiking with them, call them

in the middle of the night, do everything. And I think it's really embracing there are different kinds of friends that we can have. And we actually really thrive on having different kinds of friends, on having some acquaintances. It takes pressure off. So then if something changes in your life, it's good to have a friend that you hike with. It's good to have a friend you can travel with. I have a lot of friends. I wouldn't travel with a lot of my friends, you know, and it's okay to feel that way too. Do you have any advice for making friends who are more sober curious? It really comes down to the environment, like you were saying. I think asking yourself, where is someone who doesn't drink or someone who is more conscious going to be on a Saturday morning or a Saturday night or after work

and trying to put yourself in those places. A lot of times, health conscious people are less likely to drink. So if you go to a yoga class or you go to a vegetarian restaurant or you join a hiking group or a running club or something like that, even if those people drink, if they're someone who's getting up on a Saturday morning to be part of their running club, they're probably not going to be someone who's also staying out late. I love the idea of just like doing early morning activities to weed out. You're just like, if you're hungover, you're probably not going to be here, so I can make friends here.

I love that. What about the first part of the question? So we started with a question that was like, I think I'm fun when I don't drink, but I don't think other people are fun. But this person is like, I think I'm fun when I drink. And I think there's a lot of people out there who haven't reached the place yet where they think that they're fun without drinking. Do you have advice for tapping into that, like, less inhibited side, the dancing, the playfulness? the joy, the fun, all of that that we sometimes associate with our drunk selves? I mean, it's hard to replicate if you've never done it.

Remembering when you were a child, when you were younger, when you didn't drink, what things lit you up? What things were you able to lose your inhibition and really feel connected to something? It takes thinking about that and also really trying to practice it because it is a skill. It's like most of us started drinking probably in like high school. maybe college. So we don't have the skill yet of how to go out and have fun or how to lose ourselves. We really feel like we're reliant on alcohol to do that. And once someone can have the experience of going to a wedding and not drinking and having so much fun, or I think about my

Bachelorette party and I was totally sober and a lot of my friends were sober and we were at clubs and dancing all night. And it's amazing when you can have that experience and recognize it isn't about the alcohol. It's about your mindset going into it. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually take the steps to make eating healthier easier. That's where Marley Spoon comes in. What I love about this company and what's different than all of the other companies out there that are doing like stuff in the same arena is that you can customize your choices based on the effort that you

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masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. I had a Hindu priest on the podcast, and he said that we're essentially always practicing something. And so if we're practicing mindfulness in a moment, then that's what we're practicing, but we actually spend a lot of moment practicing being distracted. And so it kind of sounds like what you're saying is we have practiced being fun when we're drunk over and over and over and over in our lives.

So of course it's going to feel hard to be fun when you're not drunk because you haven't practiced it. And actually the secret to getting better at it is simply practicing it. Like you need to put more hours into it to get to the place where you can make those associations and have them feel really natural. Yes. I think if you're someone who doesn't like to dance, I would. wouldn't necessarily be like you should go practice being able to dance sober. But a lot of people

are like, I loved being able to go out and dance and like lose my inhibitions. And I can't do that anymore. The nice thing about it is most people who are like out dancing have no idea what you're drinking, whether you're sober, whether you're drunk. And you can go and practice and see what it feels like and try and get better. And it's not going to be easy necessarily immediately, but a lot of it is your mindset and getting more comfortable doing it. People can be amazed by how much fun you can have and how out of your body you can feel without needing alcohol to do that. Alcohol just helps you get there. It takes away the awkwardness in the beginning stages and helps people get there quicker, but you have fun because, I mean, if you think

about it, you can be drunk and, like, there are people who get drunk and they aren't fun. They aren't like dancing. They sit by themselves in a corner. So it's not that alcohol magically makes people social. Alcohol just lowers your inhibitions of what you want to do and reduces your self-consciousness. Do you have any hacks if somebody wanted to lower their inhibitions or reduce their self-consciousness? Like, is there any kind of quick way to get into that headspace if you just want to get over that initial hump? Knowing that it's going to be an initial hump can sometimes be helpful.

In terms of practicing, again, it takes work, but you could take an improv class. Like you could take a dance class with other people. I mean, you could practice being more outgoing just in your daily life. You could give yourself a challenge to talk to the person that you're in line next to at the coffee shop or things like that. Not because you're going to become good friends with them, but as a practice of just kind of getting out of your shell. and being social without needing alcohol. I love that. Zach and I also noticed one of the very first nights that we went out and other people were

drinking and neither of us were drinking and we were like, is this going to be awkward? Is this going to be weird? And there was an initial hump of more awkward where we were like, oh, like maybe we're feeling a little bit more inhibited, whatever. And then if you were like drawing a graph or something, it went the other way because then other people got drunk, started being worse conversationalists, while we were still like sparkling and witty. Like we were kind of the bells of the ball in a way because we were able to hold space

and hold conversation in a way that everybody else wasn't. It's like you said, it's like you just need to kind of dive into the deep end, see what happens, overwrite those memories and be like, this is a thing that can happen. But that was huge for me because I was like, oh, I just need to get over this little initial hump and then everybody's going to think I'm so charming. Yes. It's so interesting how it's like those first 10 to 15 minutes too. I notice that even there's like tension if you go to a restaurant and everyone calms down

once the waiter brings their drink. And it's like if you can just remember that everyone kind of has that tension in the beginning, but it gets so much easier after everyone's settled in a little bit. Next one, people always ask if I am pregnant when I choose not to drink. I never know what to say when people ask me why I'm not drinking, if it's forever, etc. as someone who has struggled with infertility, drinking protects me from having to answer that question. That is so, so tough, and I'm so sorry that it's so common that, I mean, it's really true. As a woman, it's very common for someone to ask when you're not drinking if you're pregnant.

I think I would try not to use alcohol as the way to defend yourself against it, though I completely understand that desire to do so, because especially for this listener, it's clearly, so painful what they're going through. This is an easy way for them to kind of protect themselves against that. Obviously, if you say you're not drinking and someone says, are you pregnant or why? Obviously, being very firm with the boundary and saying, you know, especially if it's someone in your life. I want to say like there's no way that would happen, but I have literally seen it happen. And it is appalling. It is. It absolutely is. It's so upsetting. So I mean, I think it depends on what this listener feels comfortable doing. I mean, she has a right to tell someone, like, to go to hell and they have no right to comment on her body or ever ask her if she's pregnant, ever.

But also, I think, like, that's where it comes back to just saying, I don't drink. I don't like drinking. I'm not drinking anymore. Please don't ask me again. And being really firm in, there isn't a reason why she's not drinking. I also think this is a good time to just do a PASA, that there is never a good time to ask anybody if they're pregnant. If somebody is visibly nine months pregnant, you still wait for them. Yeah. Somebody is crowning. You still wait for them to tell you that they are with child.

It's never a good question. And same. I've seen this happening more and more as I've gotten into my 30s is people will be like, well, are you guys thinking about having kids? What are your thoughts on having a baby? Are you guys going to try? And I have friends who've struggled with infertility for years who have been actively trying. And that question is unbelievably painful for them to deal with.

So I think just in general, around the having kids issue, are you trying? Have you had them? Are you pregnant? Always wait for somebody to tell you. You never need to ask. 100%. And if they don't tell you, if they don't volunteer that information, it is not that they don't know or they forgot or they've never thought about having kids and you're the one

that's telling them this for the first time. If they don't offer that information, that's them set. a boundary. A hundred percent. Okay. The dating scene and not drinking is really difficult. It also makes it really hard to unwind before a first date, which is usually grabbing drinks, and a possible future partner can see it as uncool. Any advice for navigating dating as somebody who is sober curious? This is another case of it's more difficult, but it also, if you're looking for like a real authentic relationship, I think it can be a thing that weeds the wrong people out. Because if someone is not interested in dating you because you are not drinking or you're not getting drunk with

them. I think it's a really clear sign that that's not someone that's probably invested in you and interested in you long term. But it's definitely awkward. It's definitely more difficult. And my recommendation would be sometimes people can lie or they try to like go to the bar early and they try to get something that kind of looks like a drink or something like that. So my recommendation would be to not do that because you will have to tell them eventually, probably, and it can set up a weird dynamic. But you also have a right to ask someone to go to ice cream, ask someone to go grab coffee, ask someone to go to a walk.

It is more difficult. People may roll their eyes or not be interested. But I think, again, it's going to bring you a higher quality date if that's what you're looking for. I had Dr. Rick Hansen on the podcast and he is, I don't know, just the most, like I feel blessed to live on this planet at the same time as him. He's just the like gentlest, most intelligent man. And also world famous psychologist who studies happiness and well-being. And he said that dating isn't about impressing another person. And we often act like, oh, we need to go into it. Put on our shiniest self and win somebody over. But dating is about finding the best match for you. And In fact, we often impair the latter by trying to do the former. And it sounds like the drinking thing is exactly that. Like, if you're pretending that you enjoy alcohol, that you enjoy all these things, maybe you're winning them over a little bit more, but you're actually impeding the match

part, which is the ultimate goal. I 100% agree. Okay. I really like the taste of alcohol. And it's also a hobby for me, like wine tasting and pairing, the ceremony of opening a good bottle of wine and sharing it with someone is special to me. I love the romance and the way it satisfies my sense of spontaneity, free-spiritedness. What should this person do? I mean, there are alcohol-free wines now that really are an actual good wine with the alcohol removed.

It sounds like this hobby could be maybe transferred to like trying mottails, trying alcohol-free bottles of wine, mixing different drinks and trying it that way if they're interested. My question to this person would also be this whole idea of it's romantic and it's spontaneous. How much of that is really what you believe and how much of that is what you learned in society. Ooh, okay. Societal unlearning tips. I think part of it is like inquiry is like talking about this, writing about this, really unpacking where did you learn this idea that alcohol is about romance and spontaneity. can you create romance and spontaneity in your life without this? I think a lot of things are romantic. I think you can be spontaneous in a lot of different ways that have nothing to do with alcohol.

A lot of the work I'm doing, at least personally, is unpacking all the negative messages that society has bombarded me with. I'm thinking in terms of what my body should look like, what my face should look like, how I'm allowed to age, what my life is supposed to look like, what success looks like all of these things. And it's actually really interesting to recognize that our idea of the place alcohol fits into our life is very much on that same thing. Like we have seen so many movies and TV shows of having a super crazy night out with alcohol or being in Italy with a glass of wine or all of these things, like recognizing that

we have just been programmed over and over and over to have these beliefs. But that doesn't mean that these beliefs are serving us. And it doesn't mean that we can't rewrite them and replace them with beliefs. that serve us better, same as in all of those other categories. And that you can't do other things that replicate that same feeling that don't have some of the negative consequences maybe of drinking. It's so interesting to think about if media in like 30 years or something will have romanticized your life moments that maybe aren't reliant on alcohol in the same way. I hope so. I mean, I think if you look at cigarettes in the media and you think about how much that's changed,

I think it's a really potentially fascinating blueprint for if we keep going this way. That's so interesting. Because cigarettes were the most cool, romantic. They were like a signifier of after a sexy and you're smoking a cigarette. When you're like the cool guy out back smoking a cigarette, it was totally that signifier. And it's so interesting how that's been phased out of movies in that way. And it's fascinating to think about the place that alcohol won't fit in our entertainment because again, those are just, it's programming.

It's constant programming that we need to be aware of. Okay, let's do this as the last one. As a parent, drinking is an easy thing to do for fun or for me. My fuse is short with my kids when I don't have a glass of wine at night. It's hard. I mean, I think that especially there is this whole like mom wine culture, this whole drinking culture that's really been created and romanticized around having kids. So I think part of this could be someone getting curious and unpacking what was learned,

what other things that they could do instead. I mean, I think it goes back to what we were talking about before, too, about alcohol is an easy thing. We can keep in our house. We can do it quickly. It helps at the end of the day. And maybe we don't have time to do an elaborate bath ritual at the end of the night. So I think it's trying to find something that is short, that does it.

for you that you can try to de-stress in the same way, but also I think remembering that it isn't going to probably ever serve the purpose as much. But I would challenge the, I have a shorter fuse if I don't drink because I wonder too, is it actually that you have a shorter fuse when you don't drink? Or are you so used to being able to have that drink at the end of the day, that you almost rely on it to lengthen your fuse? So it's almost you've like, Pavloved yourself into having a shorter fuse. Is there anything in alcohol that would technically make one have a longer fuse? It takes the front part of your brain offline a little bit, which is the part that could be criticizing your kids, frustrated, thinking about how frustrating this is,

how overwhelmed you are, how exhausted it is. I didn't mean quite in the Pavlov sense. I mean more like our fuse is also a skill we develop, right? I think a good example of saying this is right. Like when you don't learn how to sleep and you rely on alcohol or a sleeping medication to fall asleep easily at night, it also then messes with your ability to fall asleep naturally because you expect to be able to just fall asleep immediately. So I wonder too, if someone is relying on alcohol to like calm down and settle at the end of the day and kind of extend their fuse, they can almost become reliant on it where it feels like their fuse is super short when they don't have that rather than they could do some work to try to extend their fuse naturally

and extend their patients. What would that work look like? I think it would look like mindfulness. A lot of times because parents are so stressed, they use alcohol as a way to cope or get through and it avoids conversations with their partner about equitably splitting housework, right? Or being realistic about how many activities the kids can do and how much time you guys have. And alcohol can be an easy way that we just kind of squish ourselves into an uncomfortable position rather than recognizing that it's actually the position that we're in that needs to be changed. That completely resonates for me in terms of parenting situations that I've seen, but it also resonates for me in terms of our life in general. Like, I wonder how many times

the work that needs to be done isn't about the act of consuming the alcohol and fun replacements and how do I be this type of person or whatever. And instead being like, well, what is the shape of my life look like? And is that what my soul and my body and my mind want? 100%. A lot of us have lives but like a pair of clothes, like we've outgrown, they don't fit us. And instead of us figuring out how to find new hobbies or have a life that really fits us and is in alignment with our values, we use alcohol to just shut off the part of the brain that's bothered by it. All right.

Do you have any final words of wisdom or advice or thoughts that you would like to leave people with who are maybe embarking on a sober curious journey? My advice would be that it can be really overwhelming. There's tons of things to read and ideas and new substitutes to try. And I think giving yourself permission to do this slowly, to try and not just change and be a completely different person and give yourself grace that it may take some time to figure out what works for you. I love that. I would love to hear from you in your own words about things that you're working on that you're

excited about, about anywhere you would love to direct. people too. So if you're not following me on Instagram, my Instagram handle is therapy for women. I would love to chat with any of you all there. I have a new workbook coming out that is the companion to my book. It's still called Not Drinking Tonight, the workbook. The title says it's for therapists, but it really is for anyone. It has tons of worksheets. It's a really long workbook. I'm really proud of it. It's like 80% new material. so it's not just repurposed. But if you're interested in the inquiry, we kind of talked about in these questions, it goes over dating, it goes over sex, it goes over social relationships, all of these big things. And there's tons of worksheets to help you break that all down. So I'm

excited for people to check that out. I love that. I will have to get my hands on one for sure. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. This was such a interesting and helpful, even on a very personal level, I very much appreciated this conversation. So thank you for taking the time. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I had so many unlock moments during this episode with Amanda. I really resonated with reflecting on what I want my one precious life on this earth feel like. And it made me feel like even the harder moments in my not drinking journey are actually really beautiful opportunities to explore who I am and what I need and want. Right now, in this moment, I am really, really satisfied with not drinking. I've seen so many positive benefits.

and far, far fewer drawbacks than I'd hyped up there to be in my head when I was thinking about stopping. Will that change in the future? Maybe. I can't wait to keep exploring and growing and getting to know myself and I'm not putting anything off limits. And now at least I have the information that I need to make these types of decisions. I hope you love this series and you gained a new perspective or got some actionable

tips, whether it's for your own journey with drinking or even supporting a friend or family member that's going through it. I would love to hear what you're thinking about the whole thing. Has it changed your perspective on alcohol? What's your plan going forward? So definitely screenshot and tag me on Instagram and share your thoughts. Please shoot a link for this episode to anyone that you think would benefit. And if you're new here, make sure that you're following the podcast so you don't miss out on

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