The Liz Moody Podcast - How To Have No Regrets When You Die with Mega Best-Selling Author Daniel Pink

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

My guest today is the amazing Dan Pink, the author of To Sell Is Human, Drive, When, and his most recent instant New York Times best-seller, The Power of Regret. His books have sold millions of copies around the world, been translated into forty-two languages, and have won multiple awards, and he has such a fascinating way of looking at the world, and incredible amounts of research to back it up. On this episode, we talk about: the four core regrets that people have how to decide when a risk is worth taking the benefits of regret how to deal with regret so you REAP the benefits the single best decision making technique in the world a genius strategy to know NOW what you’ll regret at the end of your life the best way to deal with each of the different types of regret (like regretting hating your body for so long versus regretting being mean to someone in high school) how to deal with commitments you’ve made that you already regret, like being halfway through law school or being in a long term relationship you have doubts about science-backed tools and techniques to deal with negative emotions in a productive way a helpful way to look at grief, frustration, fear, envy, and more 2 specific practices you can do TODAY to avoid regrets tomorrow what a failure resume is and how it can change your life what science says a “good life” looks like how to be more motivated in everyday life how to tell misinformation from quality information one homework assignment for having less regrets in your future We would LOVE to hear from you any thoughts, reactions, or takeaways you have as you’re listening, so definitely screenshot and tag me @lizmoody and Dan (@danielpink)! I would SO appreciate it if you shared this episode or any favorite episodes with someone you love in your life! PS: My Patreon is live! You can join Green Smoothie Society and get access to ALL of my green smoothie recipes and advice! Get all the deets at patreon.com/lizmoody. This episode is sponsored by AG1 by Athletic Greens. Visit athleticgreens.com/healthiertogether and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today. This episode is sponsored by Olive and June. Visit oiveandjune.com/healthier20 for 20% off your first Mani System! This episode is sponsored by Pique Tea.You can getl 5% off anything on piquetea.com/lizmoody using my code LIZMOODY. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. This episode is sponsored by AG1 by Athletic Greens. Visit athleticgreens.com/healthiertogether and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today. This episode is sponsored by Olive and June. Visit oiveandjune.com/healthier20 for 20% off your first Mani System!This episode is sponsored by Pique Tea.You can getl 5% off anything on piquetea.com/lizmoody using my code LIZMOODY.Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So friends and welcome back to the healthier together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a cookbook author and longtime journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're solving dating issues or transcending childhood trauma or getting glowing skin. This week, we're getting into living the type of life where you won't have regret to the end of it. Living the fullest, richest possible life that I can is something that I think about all the time. I always say that I'm existentially ambit. basically trying to fit the most experience in the short amount of time that we all have here on this planet.

And obviously, this podcast is designed with that existentially ambitious mindset. Like, let's overcome our gut issues and love our bodies so that we can live a life that feels deeply satisfying every single day. My guest today is the amazing Dan Pink. If his name sounds familiar, it's probably because he's written a ton of books that you've seen in stores or maybe even have on your shelf, including to sell as human, drive, when, and his most recent Instant New York Times bestseller, The Power of Regret. His books have sold millions of copies around the world, been translated into 42 languages

and have won multiple awards. And he has such a fascinating way of looking at the world and incredible amounts of research to back it up. On today's episode, we dive deep into both feeling better about the regrets that we have and using past regret to make better choices for our future. Dan shares the four core regrets that people have, how to decide when a risk is worth taking, this single best decision-making technique, a genius strategy to know now what you'll regret at the end of your life, a helpful way to look at grief, frustration,

fear, envy, and more, two specific practices you can do today to avoid regrets tomorrow, and so much more. This episode is jam-packed with information and tangible takeaways that you can employ today. I cannot wait to hear what you think about the resolutions idea, which I am definitely, definitely going to try. Dan and I would love to hear what stands out for you as you're listening. So definitely screenshot and share with us. I am at Liz Moody and he is at Daniel Pink on Instagram. And if you love this episode, please send it to someone in your life that you think would benefit from it. It's the best way to support this show. And also, it'll just make people feel so much more empowered and able to live the beautiful, fulfilling life that they deserve. And if you

were sent this episode by someone, I am so glad that you're here. Don't forget to subscribe or follow on whatever podcast platform that you're listening on so you don't miss out on any future episodes. I have amazing ones coming up about how anyone can be more charismatic, busting myths about aging and exercise, and easy ways to focus better and get more done. I cannot wait to share and have these conversations with you. All right, without further ado, let's dive deeper into the power of regret with Dan Pink. All right. Thank you so much for joining me. I am such a huge fan of your work, like I was telling you, I've read, I think, all of your books, which there are many. Wow, thank you.

Let's just kick it off. Can you walk me through that incredible survey that you did about the regrets? How many people were involved in that? Well, it grows every day, Liz. When I was writing the book, we had over 15,000. Now we have climbed well into 18,000. We might even be over 19,000 right now. So I was trying to understand this very misunderstood emotion of regret.

And I did a number of ways at this. One of them was looking at the existing academic research on this. I also did a big public opinion poll of the U.S. population about attitudes on regret. But the one that you're mentioning is what I call the World Regret Survey, where I just gathered regrets from people around the world. And as I'm saying, we have now over 18,000. I think it's from 109 countries around the world. It's crazy.

That's amazing. Can you share the four core regrets that you found? Sure. What we found is that around the world, people had over and over again, the same four regrets. And these regrets had very little to do with like the domain of life, which is traditionally how researchers had looked at regret. You know, it's like, this is a career regret. This is a finance regret. This is a romance regret.

And what I found is underneath there was something, I think, more interesting going on. And so their four core regrets were number one foundation regrets. These are regrets of people who spent too much and saved too little, who didn't take care of their health. Outside of the U.S., especially a lot of regrets about smoking. So these are small decisions that accumulate. to bad consequences over the long run. And so foundation regrets sound like, if only I'd done the work. Boldness regrets, again, all these regrets kind of span the domains of life.

So boldness regrets everything from people who, a lot of people regret not speaking up, not being assertive at work, at school, and their personal life. A lot of people who regret not asking people out on dates years ago. We got a lot of people who regret not traveling when they had a chance. People regret not starting a business. and those are boldness regrets, which are if only I'd taken the chance. You're at a juncture. You can play it safe.

You can take the chance. And amazingly, when people don't take the chance, they regret it a lot. And people who take a chance and it doesn't work out actually are far less regretful. Yeah, I'm curious. We'll do the final two in a second, but I was always curious for the boldness regret. Do you think that that means pretty much whenever we are faced with a chance in life, we should be taking it? How would you personally interpret that data?

I don't know about whenever. I think that there are times for prudence, but I do think that overall we want to have a slight bias for action. I really think that's the case. And it's even more complex than that, Liz, because not only to avert boldness regrets, but one of the things that I think we sometimes miss out on is that when we're trying to figure out what to do in any realm, we sometimes think that we have to figure it out and then do it. But doing it is a lot. is a form of figuring out. So having a bias toward action is also, I think, having a bias toward figuring stuff out. That's interesting. So I've heard you say that you write to figure out what your books are, like you write your book proposal to figure out if it's a book worth writing. Is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah. That's part of it. But I think it's even bigger than what goes way way beyond that. So let's say that you are, you know, should you ask out on a date every person who you might be interested in? No, probably not. But I do think that you should have a bias toward action.

because the act of asking out somebody is going to help you figure out more about your romantic life. And maybe also with choices that you're a little bit on the edge about your, well, it could go this way. It could go this way. Bias yourself towards the boldness choice, the bolder choice. Yeah, I think what I'm gleaning from this is that it's good to have a slight bias for action. And what we see throughout the research is that people, I mean, overwhelmingly regret inactions more than actions. So when we don't act, particularly on these things of boldness, that sticks with us for a while. When we do act, and even if it doesn't work out, we're better at resolving it.

Which is so interesting, even if it doesn't go your way, that you still prefer having taken the chance. Yeah. So I don't want to say, always choose boldness because I don't think that's the case. But I do think that overall, having a bias toward acting is probably a good idea. Okay. And then can you share the final two core regrets? The final two are moral regrets, which are, if only I'd done the right thing. So once again, you're at a juncture.

You can do the right thing. You can do the wrong thing. People do the wrong thing. They regret it. Not every time, but more often than I think we realize. And then connection regrets are, if only I had reached out. And those are about the whole spectrum of relationships that we have, many of which will come apart.

And some of those that come apart, usually in slow and dramatic ways, some of those that come apart, stick with us. They stab us with the regret. And we resist reaching out because we think it's going to feel. feel awkward, it doesn't. And we think the other side is not going to care. They do. And your whole stance seems to be that we have these regrets, but they're not necessarily a negative thing in our lives. And to that end, you've even shared, I think you have like three concrete benefits of regret. Can you talk about that for a little bit? Oh, sure.

The key thing here, though, is that we have to actually deal with our regrets properly. The benefits don't happen magically. They don't happen automatically. Or not magically. They don't happen automatically. And part of the big issue here is that we haven't been taught very well how to deal with negative emotions in general and regret in particular. So, you know, on the one hand, we sometimes will ignore it saying, you know, this is the ridiculous no regrets philosophy. I don't have any regrets. No regrets. I never look backward. That's a bad idea. That's not an effective blueprint for living. But it's also a bad idea to wallow in your regrets, to over-index on them, to luxuriate in them. What you want to do is you want to think about them. You don't want to confront them.

And when we do that properly, the benefits are huge. I mean, everything, I mean, in broad categories, they help us become better decision makers, better problem solvers, and find meaning in our life. More specifically, they can help us in our, avoid cognitive biases in our decision making. They can, there's a lot of good research showing that they, that leaning into our regrets makes us better negotiators. Same thing is true for better strategists, certainly for problem solving. Oh, my gosh.

So much good research on if we're doing a problem solving exercise and then we've, we've reflect back and regret what we did wrong, how we messed up, that in subsequent exercises, we're going to do a lot better. So if we confront it properly, it is a powerfully transformative emotion if we deal with it properly. Okay, so how do we deal with it properly? Well, I mean, again, at a broad level, what you want to do is not ignore it, okay, and not wallowing it. You want to think about it. And I actually think that there's a systematic way to confront our regrets. I think of it as inward, outward, forward, inward, outward forward. So inward is how you frame the regret and yourself.

So a lot of times when we have a regret, we make a mistake, we screw up or something like that. We talk to ourselves in really cruel and brutal ways. It's ridiculous. I mean, our self-talk is absurdly vicious. And so instead of doing that, we should practice what's called self-compassion, which is an idea from Kristen Neff at the University of Texas, basically says this. you know, inward, treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Recognize that, that treat yourself as kindly as you treat somebody else. Recognize that your missteps are part of the human condition

and that it's a moment in your life. And so that sort of destigmatizes it a lot. The second thing, outward. There is such an argument for disclosure. I mean, it's overwhelming. And I think you see it in what we were talking about before, where in a blink of an eye, 15,000 people around the world decided to share their regret with a complete stranger. People want to talk about this stuff. And why do they want to talk about it? Because it's an unburdening. But the other thing about it, which I think is even more important, is that disclosure, and even if you disclose only to yourself through writing, that disclosure is a form of sensemaking. Emotions are blobby. They're abstract. They're amorphous. And that's why the bad ones feel bad and the good ones feel good. And so one thing to do with the bad ones is to try to go from abstract to concrete. That is when we convert those blobbing negative emotions into words, words are concrete. Words are less fearsome. And that helps us make sense of them.

So that's inward, outward, and then forward is you got to extract a lesson from it. You can't just leave it there. You have to find a lesson from it. And the way that we extract lessons from our own situation is by getting some distance. I mean, it sounds self-evident, but the evidence is overwhelming that we stink at solving our own problems because we're too close to them. We're too enmeshed in the details. We don't see the big picture.

What we should do instead is in some ways treat ourselves like another person. So there are all kinds of techniques on that. So you can literally talk to yourself in the third person. So if you are thinking, Liz, what to do with a regret? Instead of saying, what should I do, say, what should Liz do? I mean, it's goofy, but there's a lot of evidence that that's effective. There are other kinds of things that I really like is placing a phone call to yourself 10 years from now. So just, you know, call up the Liz of 2032 and ask her.

what she wants you to do. And I think that she's very much looking out for your best interest. She knows what you're going to care about. We know from this research what you're going to care about. The Liz of 2032 is not going to care what she had for dinner tonight. She's not going to care whether she bought a yellow sweater or a green sweater. That's not going to matter to her. What's going to matter her are those things that we were just talking about. Did in 2022, did I do the right thing? Did I take smart risks? Did I reach out to people I care about? Did I try to establish some stability from my life? That's what the Liz of 2032. going to care about. So give her a call. She'll tell you what to do. And then, you know, the other one,

I think the single best decision-making technique in the world is it doesn't even matter for a regret for anything is when you're facing a decision, ask yourself, what would you tell your best friend to do? And when people do that, they always know what to do. Does the research support dealing with all different types of regret in the same way? Should I deal with, I regret hating my body for so long in the same way as I deal with, I regret being mean to that girl in high school? That's an interesting question. I'm not sure.

I think there's probably going to be some calibration based on the type of regret. The second one, about being mean to somebody, I mean, that's something that you can actually, you can treat that somewhat differently that you can undo it, not fully undo it, but you can apologize. You can make amends.

Like for certain kinds of action regrets like that, you can undo it. The other one is harder to undo, but it is the kind of thing that where you can absolutely, you know, look inward, treat yourself with kindness. believe me, that I mean, as you know, I'm not the only person with that regret.

Disclosing it and making sense of it is hugely important in reckoning with it and then extract a lesson from it. So I think that the broad approach applies to all the categories. Once again, I think there's a slight difference in how we deal with it based on whether it's an action regret or an inaction regret. That distinction proves to be really important in the architecture of regret and how it operates. Okay, so can you just say briefly how you would deal with an action regret and maybe give us an example of an action regret and then how you would deal with an inaction regret differently? Maybe give us an example of that. So first of all, the inaction regret, you can deal with the inward outward forward technique very easily. But also action regrets too, you can apply that. The thing with action regrets is that you have some other options because of the nature of the regret. Let me give you an example of this. So I mean, I guess one of my favorite examples is I've got all these people in this book who have tattoos that say no regrets. And then I have one guy who got a tattoo this as no regrets. And 14 years later, he decided to have the tattoo removed because he had regrets, including getting that tattoo.

And so he got it removed. You can undo certain kinds of regrets like that. So that would be like I was mean to that girl in high school. If she's around, if I can get a hold of her, that would be an action regret because I can take action. Absolutely. It's definitely an action regret. You did something. You did something wrong.

Now, you can't unscramble that. egg completely, but you can make amends. You can make restitution. So it's sort of, it's similar. It's similar to that. I mean, again, a small regret. Oh, my God, I can't believe I painted my living room orange. Okay, well, let me paint over it in ecru. And then there's also, there are ways to make us feel better about certain kinds of regrets, which is not a bad thing in and of itself. So one of the most common ones that comes up in this massive collection of regrets that I have has to do with marriage. So I've got lots of regrets from people around the world. I mean, I think it's almost all women who say, oh, my big regret is that I marry this idiot,

but at least I have two great kids. So you find the silver lining in it. And so when we do that kind of thinking, so if only thinking, which is regret thinking, if only thinking makes us feel worse, but do better, at least thinking makes us feel better. It doesn't make us do better on its own. But it's okay to feel better. And so if you say, at least they got these three kids, and then you can do the other thing and say, okay, what did I? learn from this. Maybe I should know myself better before I get into a serious relationship. Maybe I should do more due diligence. Maybe I should be more acute to the warning signs that I see, et cetera, et cetera.

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paws and then they're licking them. So I'm protecting them too. Brand basics is now available at Target. Target.com, Amazon and branchbasics.com. So it's easier than ever to make the switch. And if you want to grab their premium starter kit, you can use code Liz Moody for 15% off at branchbasics.com. That's code Liz Moody for 15% off the premium starter kit at branchbasics.com. And when they ask you where you heard about us, please make sure to mention the show. That is branch basics.com and use code Liz Moody. What is the notion of sunk cost fit in? I'm thinking of a person who's like halfway through law school or they've invested 10 years at a relationship,

and how do they balance the time that they've invested in something and wanting to avoid future regrets with not creating new regrets? Well, I mean, most decisions don't make based on sunk costs. And one of the things is that if you think about situations where you've made an erroneous decision based on the sunk cost fallacy and you actually invite the feelings of regret, that you actually are more likely to avoid that kind of cognitive bias later on. So in a way, the fact that you have invested, say, 10 years in a relationship is an indication of its seriousness. I think that's right. But that in and of itself doesn't say, well, I should stick it out for another year. That's a cognitive bias that leads us to very, very bad decisions. And again, there's research showing that leaning into our regrets. That is, again, the key thing to hear to remember is that regret makes us feel bad. Okay. It makes us feel bad. And so that's not the kind of thing we often want to invite. But

certain circumstances, we actually want to welcome that. We want to welcome that negative feeling because spear of negativity helps us do better, certainly for things like confirmation bias, escalation of commitment to a failing course of action, sunk cause, all kinds of cognitive biases. If we reflect on the times that we fell through that trap door and regret it, we're less likely to fall through the trapdoor in the future. If we go and we say, ah, no regrets, whatever, sunk costs, who cares, then we're likely to make the mistake again. Okay. So if we're in a situation like we're halfway through law school and we're like,

wow, I can't quit law school even though I hate every single day of this. Because I've spent all this money. I've spent all of this time. You still think that can you just walk us through the thinking? You know, I think on that particular circumstance, there are other factors in there. But I think if the only reason you're sticking through it is because you've already spent time doing it, that's not a good. That's an insufficient reason.

How do we get past knowing that we have the potential to regret all of these things at the end of our life? But then life still gets in the way of actually changing our behavior day to day. Do you have any tips for people who have the best intentions, but then they get bogged down in real life? I mean, I don't think that my suggestion is breathtaking in its originality or depth, but I think it's do the best you can. I think at a certain point, we have to realize that all of us are flawed human beings making murky decisions with insufficient information. And so what we have to, what we should be doing is doing the best we can. But, and this is the big but when we make the wrong decision, when we make the wrong choice, instead of blithely waving it off and saying no regrets, or spinning into

rumination, what we want to do is we want to think about it. We want to take that regret. And I think the problem that we have is that we haven't been taught very well how to deal with negative emotions. And so some of us say when we get a negative, oh, come on, emotions aren't real. It's nonsense. It's not meaningful. And so we ignore them. That's a terrible idea because emotions of all kinds, including negative emotions, are signals, their information, their data.

But on the other hand, I think what happens is that sometimes people are so ill-equipped to deal with them that even a small infiltration of negative emotion ends up hijacking them. And that's really bad too. And so I think the key here is to equip people with the ways to think about negative emotions and also the tools and techniques for dealing with negative emotions that allows them to reckon with these things. Because again, when we think about, you got to come back to this like sort of the evolutionary principle here, which is that it's weird. All right. We've got this emotion that is unpleasant. And yet it's widespread.

Everybody has regrets. It's arguably the most common negative emotion that we have. It's one of the most common emotions of any kind that we have. So what's wrong with us? Why is this thing that's so aversive, so ubiquitous? And the reason is, it's useful if we deal with it properly. And that's the key. Yeah, I love the part of the book where you talked about how all of our negative emotions are actually

useful in a way is sort of a different way to think about the things that we often push away. And I thought that was a really interesting idea. We just have to know how to deal with them. These negative emotions are there for a reason. Think about fear. all right imagine if you couldn't experience fear i don't know how long you'd be alive right i'm not joking around no i mean if you were just like oh i'll touch this fire yeah it's right exactly oh the building's burning down but i don't feel fear i mean yeah could you just maybe walk through a few

negative emotion examples like that that we could reframe in a positive way because i just think that's such a helpful way to look at the world grief take grief do you want to live in a world without grief i don't because a world without grief is a world without love The reason we grieve is because we love. It reminds us that we love. If we didn't have the capacity for grief and people we cared about passed away, that would be a miserable world. Think about a negative emotion like frustration. Frustration is a signal that, okay, I'm doing something wrong here.

It's not going the right way. Let me rethink. If you never experienced frustration, I'm not sure that you would improve. Now, here's the thing. You don't want to experience frustration all the time. You don't want to be swimming in frustration. That's horrible. That brings people down.

But the reason we feel frustrated. Frustration is because we are creatures built for survival, and frustration says, oh, wait a second, maybe I, every time I make a decision based on some cost, it doesn't go right. I'm so frustrated by that. Let me do something differently. Arguably, I mean, I think this is a sketchier case. Not sketchy. I think it's a less sturdy case. Think about something like envy, right? When we feel envy. Too much of it is a debilitating emotion, but a little spearm. of envy says, okay, why am I feeling envy? What is it that I'm missing? And is that a legit thing to really want to crave? And in some cases, subjecting the envy to that scrutiny, says, no way, that's just completely vacuous. But other times it's like, no, no, this is actually something that I really want. And it's a clarification for you. And do you think when we feel like we're swimming in frustration, we're swimming in envy, we're swimming in regret, that's just because we have a lack of tools and techniques to deal with it? I think that's a big factor in it. I think

we haven't taught how to deal with that. Now, again, our brains are involved and our brains are an organ, so there are medical and biochemical factors here too that are, you know, that sometimes will prevail. Imagine somebody who never worried about anything, okay? That person is going to miss out is not going to see danger ahead. That person is not going to see that where things are going wrong. But someone who has so much worry, that's an anxiety disorder. And some of that is organic. It really depends. What we want to have is we want to obviously have more positive emotions. and negative emotions. Positive emotions are great. They make life worth living. But we want to just recognize that as human beings, we have negative emotions too. And if we treat them right, rather than ignore them or

rather than get debilitated by them, they are very powerful tools for forward progress. I'm also wondering if we live in a world that maybe disproportionately stokes some of that flooding of frustration or the flooding of envy or the flooding of regret because, I don't know, we see other people's lives. We definitely have more time for rumination than at any other point in history. I wonder if it's a mismatch with the environment that we're currently living in. That's an interesting point. I think there's something to that. I mean, if you think about something like social comparison, which is usually pretty destructive to people's well-being, a hundred years ago, there was a very small universe of people to whom you could compare yourself. And today,

it's essentially the entire universe of human beings. So endless social social. comparison is absolutely, is absolutely destructive. But the universe of people to whom you can compare yourself is bottomless now, and that can spin people into rumination. So we talked about tools and techniques to kind of like bring again that flooding back to a manageable state. You have two tools and techniques that I particularly love for regret, and I would love for you to speak to them. One is your New Year's resolution and old year's regrets. And I think that that could fit in at any point in one's life, not just in January. And then I love your failure resume concept. Great. So when we think about New Year's resolutions, they're always forward-looking and any kind of resolution or goal

setting is always forward-looking. And that's cool. But I think that they shouldn't be informed by backward-looking. So to me, you know, at the end of a year, or, you know, it doesn't really matter what the temporal landmark is. It doesn't have to be a year. It could be the end of a month. You know, so February comes to an end and you say, okay, what are my three biggest regrets for February and then use those to establish your three biggest goals for March. I mean, so again, one of the things that that's amazing about our brains is that we can travel through time in our head and we can go backward and we can go forward. And again, that's an incredibly adaptive trait if we use it properly. So think about the New Year's Day is just one temporal landmark.

There are all kinds of ones. Don't even do three for a month. Think about what's my biggest regret for February and then say, okay, so what should I do about that in March? For me, my biggest regret is that somehow in this February, because I'm running around like a madman, is like somehow I didn't figure out a way to get time in for exercise. So I could say, okay, what I'm going to do now for March is I am going to make, I'm going to put exercise sessions on the calendar and they're going to be as sacrosanct as anything that I do. I'm going to schedule an hour of exercise every day and everything I do is going to be scheduled around that sacrosanct time. And that's a way to look backward and then move forward. I should probably do that as now that I think about it.

And then the failure resume idea. Yeah, this is an idea from Tina Seleck at Stanford. It's a brilliant idea. I love it. I've done it. And what you do is you, I've sort of refined her original idea a tad, but I like to do it in three columns. And so create a spreadsheet or a table or something like that. And in the first column, list all of your professional screw-ups, missteps, flubs, blunders, mistakes, et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, and really be exhaustive about it. It's painful to do, but it's worth doing. And then in the second column, list the lesson that you learn from that. And then in the third column, list what you're going to do about it next time. And one of the things that I think people see is that in that second

column, and I think it's a very important lesson, is that very important finding is that sometimes in that second column, there is no lesson. Just didn't work. Bad luck. Life is random and unfair and things happen and, you know, and so I think that that's actually very freeing for people to see that. And what I found, I think other people have done this as found, is that they end up making similar mistakes over and over because they're not scrutinizing it. They're feeling bad. but they're ignoring it or they're wallowing it, but they're not thinking about it and scrutinizing it and drawing lessons from it. Yeah, I love that. And just to be very clear for anybody listening, the failure resume is never really intended to be seen by anybody other than oneself.

No, you can. Tina has done this with her classes and, you know, and shares it and she's shared her own. And that's totally fine. If you want to share it, that's great. And if you share it, people can help you make sense of it. People can extract lessons from it. But it doesn't need to be share. I think one of the reasons that I respond so much to those two tools is because to me, it seems like a really big purpose of regret is to help us make better choices in the present that will optimize our regret in the future. I'm curious if you have any other really actionable ways that we can use our own past regrets generally to make better choices in the present. So for certain kinds of regrets, you might want to take the sting out of them by doing it at least.

But for other ones, what you want to do is you want to actually normalize it by treating yourself with kindness. You want to make sense of it by disclosing it. And you want to draw a lesson from it going forward. And so let's take an inaction regret. Let's say you haven't you, you've had a couple of chances to travel in your life. And you didn't do it because you were chicken. You were scared. You were unsure about whether it was too risky to go overseas, et cetera, et cetera. Now, you know, if that is sticking with you for a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years, that's telling you something. That's telling you that you have this boldness regret and that you should do something. about. And now it's a very easy when the, it's like the next time I have a chance to travel somewhere interesting, I'm going to say yes. And I'm not going to make excuses about that. What happens there is that you end up avoiding future regrets, but you've taken that trip. But you'll find that that previous regret ends up being far, ends up kind of withering because you've taken action. Do you recommend going the reverse way? Like, let's say we have a choice that we're faced with in our life right now. And we can't connect it to any regret instantly. Like,

it's not like an obvious, I have a chance to travel and I didn't travel. It's just like, I have a choice. I need to decide whether to break up with this person. I need to decide whether to take this job. What should we do in that circumstance? I think that you can talk to the U of 2032 there. You can anticipate what you're going to regret. Now, the danger there is that anticipating our regrets is useful, but not perfect. A lot of times when we anticipate our regrets, we anticipate hate more regrets than we actually will end up experiencing. And so it leads us into risk-averse decisions. So you have to be conscious of that. That's one thing. The second thing is that you can't do that for everything. So the examples that you're giving, I think, are really good ones. But you can't

say, oh, you know, what should I have for dinner tonight? Will I regret, you know, will I regret having turkey tetrazini more than having macaroni and cheese? You can't do it for everything. You know, there's a lot of research about how people who try to maximize every decision are just miserable. So you don't want to anticipate that for everything. But here's the thing that where regret is clarifying. I think it's pretty clear to me that what you will regret one year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, is those four things. So if you're at a juncture and it's like, okay, should I do the work and the small things to establish a sturdy foundation for the future or should I be frivolous? I think the U of 2032 says, hey, do the work.

If it's about reaching out to someone, I mean, almost in every case, I think always reach out. If you hit a juncture where you're wondering whether you should reach out, I think you've answered the question. For moral regrets, I'm telling you, the U of 2032 is not going to be happy with you if you do the wrong thing. In most cases, she's going to have a word with you and you want to try to avoid that. And also, I think that the U of 2032 wants you to have a slight, you know, something of a bias toward action. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually take the steps to make eating healthier easier. That's where Marley Spoon comes in.

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that would help us make better decisions or better. better choices moment to moment? Oh, I think there are all kinds of ways to do that. As I said before, I think one of the best ones is asking yourself, what would you tell your best friend to do? And forget about it in the realm of regret. Just forget about that. Forget about it, like take it out of the realm of regret entirely. I've had so many people over the years come to me and say, oh, damn, I don't know, I'm trying to decide. I'm trying to decide, should I do this, should I do that? And I say, well, would you tell your best friend to do? And they say, oh, well, I tell her, blah, blah. And I'm like, Okay, I think you know what to do.

That's interesting. So if you just take that, I mean, seriously, if that becomes your only decision-making tool, you're probably going to be pretty good. Yeah, it's really, I mean, you could do it from everything from like, should I work out today, which I would always be like, yes, you're always going to feel better to should I take risks. It is interesting how many opinions that we have. If your best friend came to you said, should I work out today, what would you say? I would always say yes.

Yeah, I'd always say yes. That's why I think it's so applicable because I'm like, you will feel better. after. Yeah, unless you're like, I'm really injured right now and, you know, the working out could exacerbate the injury. But beyond that, yeah, of course, you know, on that one, you can even have a shorter time horizon. Like, should I work out today? Okay, what is the you of five hours who are not going to want? Is the you of five hours are not going to be glad that you worked out or glad that you had four martinis? Yeah. Or both, you know, don't limit yourself. Right. They're not mutually exclusive. Good point. They're not mutually exclusive. I think one of the really interesting things I kept thinking,

as I was reading your book is that you kind of share that one of the big upsides of regret is that when it's deployed correctly, it's supposed to help us live a better life. Like, it's a tool we can use to live a good life. And so I'm curious after processing all of these regrets and processing all of this data, if you have any key takeaways about what a good life looks like at the end of the day or what a good life means. I mean, I think that that's what these, all these people that you started the show with are telling us. I mean, these chorus of 15,000, we're now, as I mentioned, over 18,000, like they're telling us, they're telling me their biggest regret, but, you know, but they're also telling me what they value the most. That's the thing about

regret that we overlook is that regret is clarifying. If you're bugged by something for years, it's telling you something. It's telling you what you value. And so all these people are telling, you know, this chorus of people are telling me what they value the most. And what do we value the, what do we want out of life? We want some stability. I think it's hard to have a good life if you're precarious. I really do. I think that, you know, if you're precarious, I think that, you know, If you're really uncertain, if you're facing scarcity all the time, if your platform is wobbling, I think it's hard. I don't think it's impossible, but I think that the odds are stacked against you for fashioning

a good life. So I think it's stability. I think what are boldness regrets teaches? Boldness of us teach us that at some level, all of us understand that we're not here forever and that we've got to do something, that we don't want to waste our shot. We're here for this vanishingly short amount of time. So do something. Learn, grow, lead a psychologically rich life.

Morality, the moral regrets. I think most of us want to be good. I'm convinced most of us want to be good. I'm convinced most of us are good, actually. And I think most of us want to be good. And a good life is being good also. And I don't think most people would consider a good life saying, oh, I'm taking some risk and I'm doing some psychological rich things,

but I'm cheating people left and right. I don't think that most people, sociopaths, notwithstanding, would characterize that as a good life. And then, you know, there are many other researchers who have gotten to the same conclusion that, what we ultimately want out of life, along with these other things, is love and not only romantic love, but love in a broader sense, love that we have for companions and friends and colleagues and other relatives and things like that. And so, again, I think that regret is very clarifying.

That's what we care about, stability, boldness, morality, and love. Did you change any of your priorities after processing all of these regrets? It's an interesting question. I'd like to think my priorities were okay, but my practices were not if that makes any sense. And so the one thing, for instance, is connections. I mean, I've never been very good at reaching out. And I've changed my practice on that, truly. Like, I'm sort of when in doubt, reach out, or at least I try to do that. I do think that, you know, as I contemplate the rest of my life, I absolutely, based on this, want to have a bias for action and for trying stuff. And I think that that hearing

all these people over and over again, tell me that's what they regret. We're sort of instructing me on what to do for the rest of my life, too. People have any regrets that they felt powerless about? Like I'm thinking about I have friends who really want to have children but haven't met a partner or they want sort of that family dynamic or systemic issues that keep people from living the life that they want. Do you have any wisdom to share on that? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's, I think you hit on a very important word. there, which is that we have to think about what regret is. Regret requires agency.

So regret is your fault. So there's certain circumstances where the problem is also systemic. It's not entirely on the person. Let me give you an example of this. Let's, I mentioned some of these regrets about speaking up, which I'd have to go back and look to like really count and think, but it seemed to me that it was more women than men were, had regrets about not speaking up. Okay.

So I think there's some agency there. But I don't think it's all agency. I think it's about the circumstances and the conditions and the systems that people are in that thwart their psychological safety and make it unsafe sometimes to speak up. And so that's a systemic issue. And I think that one of the important ways of figuring out how to lead a decent life is figuring out where you have agency and where you don't and also figuring out and actually looking at some of these systemic issues and doing something about them. That's interesting. Do you have any advice for how we can figure out how we have agency and where we don't? Like, I think there's a lot of people who spend so much time fixating on climate change or the environment.

And then they're like, well, but it's out of my hands and stuff like that. I think that's a hard one. I don't have an easy heuristic for figuring this out. I mean, I think one thing would be think about it in percentage terms. So if you think about, you know, how much of this problem can I address on my own? and there's certain, like the tattoo guy, like 100% or, you know, 90%, climate change is not that high. But again, it's complicated, Liz, because on that one, climate change is a collective action problem. It's not an individual action problem.

Yeah. Well, and I think sometimes we fixate, like my mom, if she gets a plastic straw in a restaurant given to her inadvertently, she fixates on that and she has so many regrets about like not taking the step that she could. And I'm like, mom, this is not the thing that's going to. tip the scales in the world, you know? I think that's right. But I think it's a complicated question about how we figure out where we have agency and where we don't.

To me, the bigger issue is that most people don't even think about that. So I think the first step is just thinking about it, wondering about it, talking, having a conversation like this about it. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that you'll find that there's things you're fixating on that are just absolutely outside of your control. But I also think you'll find that there's things that are completely within your control, that you're perhaps not even tuning attention to.

And when it comes to systemic problems, I do think that it's another area where you want to have a bias for action. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, I think that if you say, if you're concerned about climate change, I think you should do something. You're not going to solve it on your own,

but having that bias toward action. So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to get carbon offsets or I'm going to not eat meat or, you know, something have a bias for action there, recognizing you're not going to change anything with your own. But if we all have a bias for action, then you have, then that's a way possibly theoretically, at least, to surmount the collective action problem.

Yeah, I had a neuroscientist who studies anxiety on this podcast and she said that taking action, it makes you feel so much better that it's almost always from a neuroscientific perspective, just like the way to go. Absolutely. I think there's a lot of evidence of that. And it's the principle that you can't wait until you feel better to get started, that because getting started will help you feel better. Yes. I've experienced that endless times in my own life where I'm just like having one of those days where I'm so unproductive and I can't get off the couch and then I just make myself do the tiniest little thing and it starts to tip the scales in that direction. That's okay. So I actually wanted to talk briefly about motivation and timing, which are two of your other amazing books because the ideas of motivation and timing both feel really connected to me to being bold, to taking action to kind of all these things we need to do to live a life.

with optimized regret. So could you maybe just give us like one of your favorite tips for being more motivated in our daily lives? Well, you know, at a broad level, you have to recognize that being, again, organizations, especially or at schools or anything, that motivation isn't something that one person does to another. It's something that people do for themselves. And so so much of it goes back to what we were talking about before, which is the context. So if you're running a school or an organization. You want to be in, you want to create the conditions in which people can motivate themselves by giving them a measure of autonomy and control over what they do and how they do it, helping them get better at something that matters, giving them a purpose. So I think that

I give you a simple and cheap thing that you can do, which I do all the time, which is if you're trying to motivate yourself, that we tend to overindex slightly on how and under index slightly on why. So twice a week change your how conversation to a why conversation, just twice. So if I say it myself, okay, how am I going to get exercise today? Once in a week, that how conversation, well, why am I getting, why are you doing this, Dan? Well, because I know that I feel mentally sharp when I exercise. I know that, you know, the older you get, the more you need to stay physically fit because I want to be there for my family and you start thinking through and that surfaces your reasons for doing something, which is sometimes can actually help you figure out the best way to do it.

So twice a week, replace a how conversation with a why conversation. I love that. And then obviously your whole book, One, is about timing and the power of timing. And so I'd love like one timing tip, maybe one for dealing with procrastination so that we can actually go after the things that we want in our lives. Procrastination is interesting because it's procrastination isn't a timing problem. It's an emotion regulation problem. It means that we're not regulating certain emotions properly. And so my best tip for that is bypassing the emotions entirely and creating a structure that that takes away decision making.

So one thing, I mean, it's a common technique. It's very well known, but I use it all the time is something you might have talked about on your show, the Pomodora technique. So, you know, folks can can Google that. So if you're having a hard time procrastinating, use a Pomodoro, set it for 25 minutes and just say, I'm just going to do this 25 minutes. And you'll be amazed at what happens. you'll be amazed at what what happens that again you know so much of what we're talking about so much of behavior itself is the interplay of the person and the situation and it's often hard to disentangle which is the superior the more potent force in those kinds of circumstances but for procrastination

i'm a big believer in changing the situation so you need to write something don't bring the phone with you into the office set a pommodoro those kinds of things rather than try to summon the will power. That's a, or self-control. Just change the architecture of choices that you can make. Is there a better time of day to make big choices if we have to make big choices? Slightly, I think. It depends on your chronotype, which is your propensity or do you naturally wake up early and go to sleep early? Do you actually wake up late and go to sleep late? There's some evidence showing that, pretty good evidence showing that we're slightly more acute decision makers when we, for about 80% of us doing it early in the day rather than late in the day,

But for night owls, do it late in the day. So if you're a night owl, if you naturally wake up late and go to sleep late, you know, make a big decision at, you know, I'm not, you know, you probably feel comfortable making a big decision at 9 o'clock. Someone like me should not be making any big decisions at 9 o'clock at night. Are there any other like learnings from your past books that have changed your life in ways that have actually stuck that like changed them day to day? You know, I think that from the book to sell as human, the principle that when we're

trying to persuade somebody, when we want someone to do someone else to do something, that instead of changing their mind, just making it easy for them to do it is often more effective. We spend a lot of time trying to get people to change their opinion, change their mind. And people don't like changing their mind. But if you want someone to do something, just make it easy for them to do it. And that, to me, is a cardinal lesson from that book. This is very random and it has nothing to do with regret. But while I have you on the podcast, I'm very curious because it's a question that I get a lot.

You do a lot of research for your books, and you were also at one point a speechwriter. in politics. And I'm curious if you have any advice on how the layman could tell misinformation from quality information. Oh, very interesting. Yeah, it's a great question. It depends on the context. I think it's fairly commonplace, but consider the source. That's the thing that sort of surprises me sometimes is that people don't scrutinize, like, where did it come from? And by that, do you mean the media site or like the research, the journals behind the media site? Both. Both. Both. I think you ask. like where does it come from and how do they know? And so I think those are the two important questions. And so there's some sources that are more reliable than other sources. It doesn't mean those reliable sources are always right. But there's some sources that are clearly more reliable than other sources. And then also asking the question, how do they know? How do you know? How do you know? So if I say, hey, there are four regrets that everybody has. You should say, well, how the hell do you know? And I say, well, I've collected 15,000, you know, 18,000 regrets from people all over the world. And I've read through them all and I saw these patterns. Oh, okay, that's how you know.

know, you know. So ask, so where does it come from? How do you know? Those are inherently imperfect, but it's a good start. Well, and what I like about it is it at least makes you take a second to think about, to sit with the information for a second as well. And I think that it separates you from maybe your emotional reaction to the information too. So it's a great point. Those are like speed bumps on the road of reasoning, right? Where did it come from and how do you know? Can you just leave us with one homework assignment, something really actionable and pragmatic that we can all do today that will help us optimize regret in our own life? Yeah. I mean, what I would do is as simple as possible is think about one big regret that you have. Write it down. Then draw a line underneath it.

And then say, what lesson did it teach you? Draw a line under that. And then write down what you're going to do and start that third part with the words next time. And so think about the context that you're in and then think about what you're going to do when you're in that context. I love that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it.

I hope you loved this episode with Dan Pink. I hope you came away with a lot of wonderful, actionable takeaways to optimize your regrets and live that full and rich and satisfying life that you so deserve. If there is anybody in your life who you think would benefit from Dan's wonderful wisdom, please, please, please just shoot them a link, spread this wonderful information. it's truly the best way to support the podcast. And the second best way to support the podcast is a really quick rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, whatever podcast platform that you listen on. It's really just a wonderful tool to help other people find the podcast. And I massively,

massively appreciate you taking the time to do it. And if you're new here, if somebody sent you this link, don't forget to subscribe or follow on whatever podcast platform that you're listening on. We have a ton of really wonderful episodes in our previous episodes archive. We have stuff about gut health, about anxiety, about hormone health, about skin care of the stars, about style. We have interviews with the most amazing, inspiring people. So definitely take a little walk back through our previous episodes and make sure that you're subscribed so you don't miss any of the amazing episodes we have coming up in the future.

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