The Liz Moody Podcast - How To Overcome Imposter Syndrome And Start Living Your Best Life with Dr. Valerie Young

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

My guest today is Dr. Valerie Young, one of the world’s leading experts on imposter syndrome and the founder of the Imposter Syndrome Institute. She’s the author of the best-selling book, The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women: Why Capable People Suffer from Impostor Syndrome. what imposter syndrome actually is and how to know if you have it the hidden causes of imposter syndrome the types of people who are more vulnerable to imposter syndrome exactly how to get over the fear of people thinking you’re stupid or not liking you how to deal with criticism in a healthy way the REAL thing that holds us back from going after our dreams more than money or time how to get over fear of failure and actually take a big, scary leap in your life why perfectionism is not serving you and pragmatic tips to let go of it why your imposter syndrome is leading to procrastination (and how to stop!) one simple thing everyone can do to build confidence right now the one big mistake people make when trying to decide if a risk is worth taking This episode is sponsored by Seed. You can get 15% off your first month’s supply of Seed’s DS-01™ Daily Synbiotic by going to https://seed.com/daily-synbiotic and using the code LIZMOODY. This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley. Head over to paleovalley.com and use the code LIZM for 15% off. This episode is sponsored by Wild Health. Get 20% off with code LIZ at wildhealth.com/liz. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and long-time journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're learning science hacks to be more charismatic, tackling burnout to get our energy back, or talking super honestly about the pros and cons of having kids. And yes, those are all real episodes, so if any of those topics sound good to you, scroll on back in the archives. Today's episode is all about overcoming imposter syndrome.

My guest today is Dr. Valerie Young, one of the world's leading experts on imposter syndrome and the founder of the Imposter Syndrome Institute. She's the author of the bestselling book The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women, why capable people suffer from imposter syndrome, which was actually recommended to me by a member of this community. I read the book, fell in love with Dr. Young's approach, and reached out to have her on the pod. So thank you so much. I love when you give recommendations.

I am always listening to you guys and trying to make this podcast serve you as much as possible. If you are wondering if you have imposter syndrome, don't worry, we cover that at the very beginning of the episode. But whether or not you have it, and to be clear, the stats show that at least 70% of us have it, and I actually think that it's far higher than that. So it's not something to feel alone or ashamed of at all. But whether or not you have it, there are a ton of interesting reframes and strategies here that will generally help you get out of your own way and start living the life of your dreams. We talk about the hidden causes of imposter syndrome, the types of people who are more vulnerable to imposter syndrome, exactly how to get over the fear of people thinking you're stupid or not liking you, how to deal with criticism in a healthy way. The real thing that holds us back from going after our dreams more than money or time.

how to get over fear of failure and actually take a big, scary leap in your life, why perfectionism is not serving you and pragmatic tips to let go of it. I needed this one, as you will hear in the episode. Why your imposter syndrome might be leading to procrastination and how to stop. One simple thing everyone can do to build confidence right now and the one big mistake people make when trying to decide if a risk is worth taking. I am so excited about this episode and I can't wait to hear your as you're listening, so please screenshot and tag me. I am at Liz Moody. Okay, let's tackle imposter syndrome so we can start living our best lives. I would love to start out with just a basic definition of what is imposter syndrome. Like, how are you defining that? I define it, Liz,

as this often unconscious belief that deep down we're not as intelligent, capable, competent, qualified, talented as other people think we are. And we have this belief because we have externalized our success, right? So it's counterintuitive because we can see the degree in the wall, we can see concrete evidence of our abilities, and yet we chalk them up to outside factors, things like luck, timing, computer error, you know, they just like me, connections, and we're left with the sphere being found out. What are some signs in our life that might signify we're suffering from imposter syndrome? I thought it was really interesting that some of these were like different than just like walking around all day and be like, I'm an imposter, I'm an

imposter. Yeah, we're rarely walking around saying I'm an imposter. You know, usually someone, for example, they might say, I love your podcast, or, you know, I enjoyed your book or a good job on that project. And you either overtly push it away and say, you know, oh, it's just because somebody helped me or, you know, I really locked out. It was a fluke. Right time at the right place. You know, or you're just internally, you're having a hard time really owning your accomplishments. You know, you're constantly chalking them up to these outside factors. And I think if you're you have this persistent anxiety that if they only knew, right, that they're going to find out, then that's a pretty good sign that you're probably experiencing imposter syndrome as opposed to just kind of what I call normal self-doubt. It's interesting, too, the example that you gave

about the podcast, because for me, my podcast is this place that I feel like I'm good at it. I feel like I trained as a journalist for years and years and years. And so when people compliment me about my podcast, I internalize it in such a different way than when people compliment me on my recipes. I feel like when people compliment me on my recipes, I'm just kind of like, oh, like, thank you. And I've written cookbooks and stuff, but there's something about it that I feel so imposter syndrome in this one category of my life. And I feel very confident and comfortable in another category of my life. Is that normal? Absolutely. You know, I mean, we often kind of have this image that people who feel like impostures are just walking around, right? Feeling it in every aspect

of their life. And in reality, just as you said, there's areas where you can feel very, very confident and other places, especially a new situation, something that you haven't done before, or you don't feel as your strength, or maybe you're in a situation where you're very visible, you know, or there's not a lot of people who look like you're the only woman in the room, you're the person of color in the room, you know, those are the moments where these feelings can also come up. You're alluding to the fact that some of these things are like external perceptions. Can you speak a little bit to all of the different places that imposter syndrome can come from?

like our childhood and these very real systems that we all have to live with it. I mean, as it turns out, Liz, if you were raised by humans, you have a much better chance of experiencing imposter feelings. And even incredibly well-intentioned parents can pass along some messaging that might lead a child to grow up and feel like an imposter. So let me give you three very quick examples. So maybe you were the kid who came home with four A's and one B. And your family's only response was, what's that B doing there?

What you learned is the only thing that's acceptable is perfection. And for kids, praise is like oxygen. Now, there's many reasons why a parent might be expecting all A's and academic excellence. Maybe an immigrant family, education is seen as the path to success or maybe even survival for the family. Very often in black families, parents send the message rightly so that you have to be better. You have to excel because you have to be better because you're being judged by a different higher bar. You know, obviously an affluent or well-educated family. They want you to fall in their footsteps and so on.

But none of those reasons matter when you're a kid because, again, praise is like oxygen. Other kids might have gotten excellent grades and gotten no praise at all. And there's many reasons. It's not because they're bad parents. Maybe they didn't get it growing up so they don't know how to give it. Maybe it's cultural. Maybe it's just expected. There's many reasons.

But when you're a kid, you don't care because praise is like oxygen. And then other kids got a little too much oxygen, right? where they were told everything they did was remarkable. And then they become very dependent on praise as an adult and have a hard time sorting out good from great from average. I think that's the category that I fall into completely. Like I was always in like the gifted and talented programs. And I was really taught that my worth came from accomplishing things from a very young age.

Yeah. And then suddenly you slam into something hard and you may not know what you do with it. I mean, certainly a lot of kids who are at the top of their class, go off to college and now they are one of many. Now they're competing with kids who are also gifted, also at the top of their class and it can be a real jolt to their, to their identity. And suddenly they feel a lot less, quote unquote, smart. But I'm not a big fan of it's not one thing at your mother. You know, that we didn't go up in a vacuum. There's more going on than family messages. I mean, that's worth looking at, right? How is success defined in my family? Have I

exceeded that definition? Have I fallen short? Either one will send you into therapy. Like just saying, it's important to look at how success was treated when you were child, failure, and so on. But again, we didn't go up in a vacuum. People who work alone are more susceptible. People who are solo practitioners, solo entrepreneurs, people working home with COVID because of COVID restrictions. Why is that? Why would working alone make you more susceptible? Well, when you're working alone, especially if you have your own business, you're not getting feedback from anyone.

You know, you're not getting performance evaluations. It's much easier to get into your head. I think with so many people working virtually now, it's a lot harder to read signals when you're dealing in a virtual meeting. A lot of people started their jobs during COVID. They have never met their coworkers. And it's very easy, as I said, to kind of get in your head and not really be sure on how well you're performing when you're working alone. People, students, as a segment of population, college students, especially graduate students, much more likely than the general public to experience imposter syndrome, which makes sense because

their knowledge and intellect is literally being tested over and over again. People in certain occupations are way more susceptible. People in creative fields, design, acting, writing, art. There was a study, I think was that in Australia in the ad agency world. And usually people talk about how 70% of people feel like impostors. In this study, it was something like 97%, you know, which made me think like, what's up with the other three? Like, what's going on with them? But when you're in a creative field, you're being judged by subjective standards by people whose job title is professional critic. And that's why you see people like Tina Faye, Tom Hanks, Viola Davis. I mean, so many accomplished, my angelo, writers, actors, and so on, have talked about,

you know, they're feeling like impostors. People in very information dense, rapidly changing fields, like science, technology, medicine are more vulnerable. People in very highly competitive environments, like big law firms. And then you can't disregard the confidence gap, which is very well researched between people who identify as men and people identify as women. And then more broadly speaking, a sense of belonging fosters confidence.

So the more people in the room who look like you or in your field or at a level in an organization, the more confident you feel. the more people who sound like to you, the more confident you feel. But if you have a strong regional or working class accent that society has decided doesn't sound as intelligent, or if English is not your first language, and that's what you're doing business in or going to school speaking English, you can be more susceptible. Folks who are first generation in their family to go to college are also more vulnerable to imposter feelings. It's so interesting because we're going

to talk about a lot of the mindset shifts and the things that you can do. internally, but a lot of the things that you mentioned are external factors. There's a quote that you gave in the book that was something like, if you're selling yourself short, it may be because the world that you live in does too, which just stopped me in my tracks. I'm curious how you would suggest that we deal with that. For people identifying as women in the workplace, there are very real challenges that they face versus people who identify as men, and there's very real challenges that BIPAC face. And so what do we do with these systemic issues?

Is it just to kind of change our own mindset? Do we have to change the system to feel better? Clearly, the system is part of the problem. On the off chance that us as individuals can't change the whole system, I want people to understand how organizational culture can fuel self-doubt. I want people to understand the pressure that people of color, that women, folks with disabilities, you know, whenever you're on the receiving end of stereotypes about confidence, intelligence,

you're going to be more susceptible to imposterous. So I think it's really important to understand the external factors that can undermine our confidence. At the same time, none of us have any control over what anyone in the room thinks of us. None. We have no control at all. So the point that I always make to people is the only thing we have control over is our response. Let's say you're sitting in a room and somebody's speaking and you don't understand, but you don't want to speak up because you don't want to sound stupid.

We've all been there. We've all hesitated to raise our hand. And then someone asks our question. And the person said, oh, that's a brilliant question. Oh, yeah, that was my question. The message I always give people is it's not about knowing at all. It's about not knowing with confidence. I want them to be the person in the room who raises their hand and confidently says,

excuse me, I'm not following. Do you mean this or do you mean that? Can you explain that a different way? I'm not, you know, I don't get it. Now, will you feel more vulnerable if you are the way? woman in the room. You're the person of color. You know, you're the person with a disability of so on. Absolutely. But again, we have no control. So that's why I want this notion that I have just as much right to not understand or ask for help as anyone else. I wanted to come from the depths of our soul.

So that we project that not knowing with the confidence that says, of course, I'm asking this is a perfectly legitimate question to ask. And nine times out of 10, people in the room are like, oh, thank God. Liz was brave enough to ask that question. I had no idea it was going on either. I always really respect people who are like, oh, I didn't know what that word meant. Can you explain it further or who do have that quality? But in the moment, I find it really hard to get myself there. I'm like, oh, people will judge you in this way, whatever, whatever.

Do you have any pragmatic tips for getting to that place of not knowing with confidence? You know, I think it's about being kinder to ourselves and having more of a sense of humor. We take everything so seriously. I was speaking to a couple of hundred health care executives in Orlando, and I started coughing. You know, like that kind of tickle that you can't get rid of. I had to step aside and drink water for a couple of minutes, you know, and then I came back and I said, how many of you would be mortified right now if this happened to you and a bunch of people raised their hand?

And I said, yeah, I don't care. I pointed out, it's not that I don't care. It's just that I have it in perspective. Like, no one stormed out of that room and said, I am not listening to that coughing speaker. one more second. We all have coughed in that way. I think we have to respond as if proportional to whatever's happening. It's not a big deal. But if we project that it is, it's more problematic. So to be able to let things roll off us more quickly, it's a skill we have to practice, but I think it's really well worth practicing. So is that just in the moment, almost having the

dialogue of if I did raise my hand and ask this question, what's the worst thing that could happen? And if people did think I was, is it a, what's the worst that could happen? Is it trying to put yourself in other people's shoes? Like, what's actually happening in those moments? We have these rules, right? If I was really intelligent, capable comp, and I should, I'd never, I'd always. So the rule there is probably, I'd always understand what people were saying, or I'd always know the answer.

So I often ask people, well, what if you broke the rule? What would happen? You know, if I asked a question, then what? Like, what's the fear? And the fear is typically that other people will think I'm stupid. But if you dig down a little deeper, the real fear is, I think I'm stupid and I don't want people to find out. Oh. And for women, you know, I used to do this exercise, if then.

Like if you break this rule, if this, then what? For women, it came down to one or two things. They'll think I'm quote unquote stupid, not qualified in an imposter, or they won't like me. And you hear that a lot more from women, the fear of not being like than you do from men. So how do we stop caring about those two fears? How can we create distance from them? I think it's really hard to stop caring if people like you, you know, unless you're narcissistic. And you have to try to be, and still put that in perspective because you don't love everybody.

Not everybody's going to love you. I mean, that's just the reality. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually take the steps to make eating healthier easier. That's where Marley Spoon comes in. What I love about this company and what's different than all of the other companies out there that are doing stuff in the same arena is that you can customize your choices based on the effort that you want to put in. So if you want them to send you ingredients, so you can make your own 20-minute meal and get into your chef energy, they'll send it to you to all be in perfect portions so you'll eliminate waste. Great, that's sorted.

But they also have meals that you can just heat up. They have ready-made breakfast, which is always such a tough time of day to get a healthy meal in. They have grab-and-go snacks. Everything is made from farm-fresh produce with high-quality proteins, and you can select by dietary preferences, including Mediterranean diet, which is the top diet that doctors on this podcast recommend. Also, things like gluten-free, dairy-free, low sodium, anything that you need. The food is so good and it's so gourmet feeling like you feel like you're at a nice restaurant. We're talking like chicken milanese with a crunchy cucumber arugula salad.

or everything bagel salmon with truffle chive potatoes. My favorite recent meal was the creamy lemon chicken tray bake. I had one of those moments where I looked at my plate and I was like, wait, I made this and so quickly, like so easily. It's just so little effort for so much reward. Marley Spoon just makes eating well feel easy instead of stressful. And honestly, that is everything. This new year, fast track your way to eating well with Marley Spoon.

Head to marlyspoon.com slash offer slash Liz Moody for up to 24. free meals. That is right, up to 25 free meals with Marley Spoon. That is Marley Spoon.com slash offer slash Liz Moody. So remember to get the offer slash Liz Moody for up to 25 free meals. The mattress that you sleep on is one of the highest exposures that you have. Like if it's off gassing, you're breathing that in for basically a third of your life. And most conventional mattresses are loaded with synthetic foams, flame retardants, microplastics, and more. Plus, if it's not comfy, you're going to be tossing and turning, you're going to be really hot, and sleep is the foundation of health. It is so important. Because of all of this, if I were not going

to invest in any other part of my house, no other things in my house, I would invest in my mattress. And in fact, I have four years well before I had much money to spend on any of these things because it is such a big needle mover. The birch mattress is incredible. It is made with organic cotton, natural latex, and ethically sourced wool. So it has literally no off-gassing. You can not smell anything right when you unbox it. It has no microplastics, no synthetic foams or flame retardants. And the wool makes it so breathable, which if you've listened to this podcast for more than five minutes, you know that I run very, very hot. Like I am a furnace. Zach has basically accepted that sleepy next to me is like sleeping next to like a little

fire and the birch mattress has been a game changer for that. It's made me sleep so much better like I can see my sleep score going up because I'm not hot all night long. It's also hypoallergenic, which is really worth paying attention to if you find yourself waking up stuffy or congested. Dust mites in a conventional mattress can actually impact your breathing and your sleep quality without you even realizing it. And again, we need to be able to breathe to get good sleep and getting good sleep is the foundation of our health. And then comfort wise, Zach sleeps on his back and then I sleep on my side and my stomach. So we have two completely different sleep styles and we both wake up feeling really good, no aches and pains. CNN actually named the Birch mattress, the best mattress for

side sleepers and Wired named it the best organic mattress period. So there you go. Birch has options for every kind of sleeper in your household. They have three firmness layers. I like the Lux Natural, which is the medium one. And then parents, they even have a Birch Kids natural mattress. Birch ships right to your door. It sets up in minutes and it comes with 120 night risk-free trial. So if it is not for you, they will pick it up for free. You have nothing to lose here. I want all of you to enjoy a deep, restful night sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com slash Liz Moody for 20% off. That is birchliving.com slash Liz Moody.

And you're going to get 20% off, birchliving.com slash Liz Moody. That's so funny because it's so simple when you say it that way you don't love everybody So why would everybody love you? But still the idea like I can have a hundred thousand people like content I put out there And if one person sends me a message that I sit with that forever. I'm just like I need to get this one person to like me. Yeah. It's such an uneven assumption or desire.

I think in Postertendom we have this trick scale, right? And on our trick scale, only the negative evidence counts. So to your point, you know, you give a tariff. And there's 100 people in the room and 99 people say it was great. One person says that was the worst talk I ever went to. Horrible. And you believe the one person because we think everyone else was just being nice. Yeah, just being nice.

Yeah, for sure. So how do we deal with that? Is that where like the whole fake it tell you make it concept comes in? I think it goes back to just perspective setting. You know, and again, you don't like every book. You don't like every film. We don't like everything. So why is everybody going to like us?

And it's about making a conscious. decision, I'm going to focus on the 99 people for whom I am their cup of tea. They do enjoy my podcast or my book or whatever it is. Those other people will be well served to go somewhere else, which is a better fit for them. Sometimes we're getting good information and we're getting good, we think of it as criticism, but we're getting good information. And even constructive criticism, when you feel like an imposter, it wounds us, right? All we hear is a constructive criticism. I was speaking at NASA. And this woman said to me this engineer, she had her performance review.

Her boss told her four or five things where she was outstanding. And at the end, she said, is there anything else, anything I can work on or get better? And she said, and then he told me, she said he criticized me and I was depressed for weeks. I said, do you mind if I asked you what the criticism was? And she said, yes, he told me I could have delegated more of my last project. And I said, that wasn't criticism. that was information. He sees you operating at a higher level.

He was giving you information. You need to get better. And I think we have to start looking at constructive feedback, almost like in a sports kind of way. Because would you really want a tennis coach who says, well, Liz is holding her racket wrong, but I don't want to say anything because I don't want to hurt her feelings. Or do you want somebody who's going to give you the information to get better?

Is there anything that you told her? about knowing when something is criticism and when something is that information that you need to get better and how to interpret it correctly? We just had that one conversation about that information that she got. And not, let me be clear, not all criticism is valid. There's certainly many famous entertainers and actors who've gotten horrible critiques or books, right, that were rejected and you know, you'll never be an actor, you'll never be a comedian or And they're like outstanding in their field. So you can't believe all the quote unquote critics.

But I think we need to pay attention. And I think part of us knows when we're getting information that might help us. I mean, maybe. Let me tell you a quick story. There was a woman who, she was an executive coach and she wrote this article in a big newspaper about how she had ironically just come back from speaking on imposter syndrome, where she talks about constructive feedback is a gift. but then somebody emailed her and said, I just wanted you to know, enjoyed your talk, but you said, um, like a hundred times in a one-hour talk. And so this woman was angry. She was hurt. She was upset. Her daughter was furious. How rude. And then she kind of got a hold of herself. And she said, and then I had a different response. And I thought she was going to say gratitude, but it wasn't.

It was empathy. She felt sorry for this young woman because she didn't know that the best feedback is asked for, you know, and so on. And I thought, wow, you should send that woman roses. She not only told you, you said, um, but she quantified it, like a hundred times. If you want to be a speaker, that was really good information. And she took time out of her day to give you information to help you get better. And anybody who's in business, you need to take information seriously. And, you know, obviously assess whether it's useful. But in that case, that was incredibly useful to me that was not criticism. That was really good information. It might hurt. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt, but it was good information. I feel like for me, I have the emotional response immediately,

and then I can have that logical assessment of, is this helpful? Is this useful in a way? Or should I disregard this feedback after I get through that initial moment of emotional response? Is that bad? Or like, should I be trying to get rid of that initial emotional response? No, no, no. I think we're human. And we're going to have that initial response. And then we did it. To me, it's always about kind of talking yourself down faster. Do you have like a self dialogue for that? Because I'm really bad at it.

You know, it's funny. I never use the words like inner critic or, you know, that's not part of my, how I view the world. I think it's about stepping, hitting the pause button, becoming consciously aware of what is the conversation going on in your head, and then reframing it the way somebody who is humble, genuinely humble, but it's never felt like an imposter would. How would they, for example, take that feedback seriously, but not personally? Okay. I can try that. We kind of started talking about

the fear of not being likable, but then there's also the fear of not being smart in those moments that you are afraid to raise your hand at work or suggest an idea on a meeting. Would that be the same process in that type of situation as well? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I was speaking to a group of PhD students. They were black and Latino PhD students in engineering. One of the students there, he was black and he had, I'm not sure what the disability was, but he was, I think he had cerebral palsy. He was difficult to understand. His speech was difficult to understand. His name was Jerry. He was the first person to raise his hand. He was just intensely curious. If I asked a question to the audience, he would raise his hand and volunteer. He didn't care what anyone thought about him. He was there

to learn. I love that. I love that. I do think there is almost like a zooming out of we have this one life. What are we trying to actually accomplish here? And how much is our fears of what other people think of us impeding that accomplishment? Oh, absolutely. I think confidence holds people back far more than, you know, money or time. I know people who've had money and had time and they still couldn't get out of their own way, let's say to start a business or something. But confidence I think pulls us back more than anything else and this fear of can I do it? What people think? Will I fail? Am I smart enough? Do I know enough? Let's talk about that for a second because there's the idea of imposter syndrome once you're

actually in a role. But I think it's also really interesting how much it can prevent you from even starting something. Do you have any advice for when you're like, should I start a business? Am I qualified to go for this job? Should I start a novel or something like that? Yeah, you know, it's interesting because you've written cookbooks. And very often people get stuck because they're trying to come up with this idea that no one else has ever thought of before. And if somebody got there first, they're crushed. Like they took like the one idea that was going to change the world. And I used this example.

I said, imagine you said, you know, I'm going to take my family recipes and I'm going to collect them and put them in a book and bind it and sell it. And then one day you walk into Barnes & Noble and you come around the corner and you run into the cookbook section. And you go, oh, no, somebody already wrote a cookbook. But they didn't write your cookbook, right? They didn't start your business. I know a lot of multi-millionaire online business owners from my previous life, mostly men. And their mantra is half ass is better than no ass, right? They don't mean do a bad job, but it's always about

get version one out the door and you can course correct as you go along because everything is going to get better in time, but you have to kind of start and trust that you can figure it it out as you go. It's so interesting because I was like that completely with cookbooks where I felt again, it's this weird like I felt completely confident putting a cookbook out. And I was like, of course there's other cookbooks, but I'm going to write my cookbook and it'll be great. And now I'm thinking about expanding my business into product. And every time I come up with an idea, I'm like, well, there's another protein powder out there. There's another this. And I don't have that same flexibility or spaciousness of thinking in the business arena.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's always room for different iterations or aimed at a different market or, you know, it's just always another way to do it. The other thing I feel like that can really hold people back, especially at those initial stages of starting something, is the idea of perfectionism. Can you speak a little bit to the role of perfectionism in imposter syndrome? It's definitely one of the number of ways that I think we misunderstand what it means to. be competent. So for the perfectionist, they hold themselves to the standard whereby they expect a flawless performance each and every time. To have an off day, it is unacceptable. To, let's say, be a speaker and have one talk go better than another talk is unacceptable, because they want to just knock it out of the park every single time. You know, they might make a, give a talk and then realize they forgot to make some minor point and they will keep themselves up endless.

There's some little inconsequential typo in their paper, and they just can't even sleep. It's like the whole thing is ruined in their mind. First of all, it's not possible to do everything perfectly. And not only that, but not everything can be perfect or needs to be perfect. I mean, certainly if you're flying my plane or you're performing surgery on me, skew towards perfectionist, which is different. Having a healthy drive to excel is different than perfectionism. Because for perfectionists, we feel shame when we fall short.

people who have a healthy drive to excel, like they wanted to be perfect and they do everything they can to make sure it is. But if something goes wrong, there's a glitch. As long as they gave it their best shot, they don't feel shame. They figure, okay, what went wrong? How do I make it better next time and they're able to kind of bounce back? That sounds so nice. We waste time on things where it's not warranted. In the software business, they call it GEQ, good enough quality. Now, if you were preparing a presentation for a major company or a big client, Yeah, you're going to look for things to be perfect. But the reality is if you put on a conference, the second conference is going to be better than the first.

The third time is going to be better than the second. Like everything can be improved upon. But when you're a perfectionist, you want it to be perfect the very first time. And it can't be because you haven't done it before. So are there concrete tools that we can use to quell those perfectionist urges? I'm a big fan of sports analogies. Because when you're a perfectionist, if it's not quote-unquote perfect, then you feel like you failed. Think about a sports team, right?

Somebody's going to win, somebody's going to lose. The losing team is going to be crying on the bench. But they don't hang up their uniform and go home. They go watch the game tape to see how they could improve next time. They get more coaching. They practice and they say, we'll get them next time. So much of it is about resilience. How do we build resilience?

then? I love looking to different role models. Your listeners can Google Princeton professor failure CV. The guy posted his clearly impressive, tenured Princeton professor resume CV. He also posted his failure CV, the jobs he didn't get, the conferences that turned down his proposal, the publications that rejected his papers, the grants he didn't get. And it really rocked the academic world. People are like stunned because we have this thing in our mind that's excesses is this kind of straight line trajectory when it's peaks in valleys. It's what you do in the valleys that matter. Yeah, it's so true. And I think it's so tricky because people just do not talk about the valleys, which is fair. Like I don't think it's insidious or people trying to hide anything,

but I think it's like you don't even want to dwell on the valleys. Yeah, but the valleys is where the lessons are. You know, there's a wonderful book by Mike Matt. Massimino, it's called Space Man. He was a working class kid on Long Island who went after his lifelong dream of being an astronaut. And I heard about him because he was on a podcast and he talked about before his first space deployment in the shuttle, he had imposter syndrome. So I got to read this guy's book. So I read his book. I happen to be speaking at Columbia University the same day he had office hours. He only had office at that was one day. This is actually kind of funny. So I emailed him, He said, Mike, I'd like to meet you.

He doesn't email me back. And I thought, well, perhaps he didn't understand. I didn't feel rejected. I'm like, okay, he doesn't understand. He needs to meet with me. So I sent him a copy of my book. So I figured, you can't ignore something that arrives in the mail. Right.

You can ignore an email, but not something arrives in the mail. So he said, sure, he'd meet with me, super busy guy. He's often on the Big Bang Theory for anybody who watches that show. He plays himself. So I read his book, and his whole book is a case study in, not thinking like an imposter. When he was at MIT, he said the first year he did fine, the second year he said it kicked his ass,

almost dropped out, but he got together in a study group with other failing students and they were able to lift their grade together. Then he failed as qualifying, his oral exams to qualify for the PhD. Again, almost dropped out. People jumped in, helped him prepare. He did more research and he tried to get in it.

And it's all through his book, these scenarios of him dealing with adversity, failure and then addressing it. So when I met him, I said, Mike, I don't think you had imposter syndrome. And he said, you don't? I said, no, I think you had holy crap. I'm going into outer space and Tinkan syndrome. Because again, his book is the opposite of imposter syndrome. If you have headaches, allergies, brain fog, skin irritation, or you've been dealing with hormone issues, you are especially going to want to listen to this ad. Every single thing that I just listed has been linked to chemicals and household cleaners.

One study found that regular use of cleaning sprays was associated with a lung function decline comparable to smoking 10 to 20 cigarettes per day. Synthetic fragrances are a well-documented migraine trigger and a number of studies have linked ingredients in common household cleaners to fertility issues, thyroid dysfunction, mood changes, and more because of their impact on our endocrine systems. Luckily, you can just make one simple swap and you can eliminate all of those risk factors that you get from common household cleaners. Branch Basics makes cleaning products that are plant and mineral based, completely fragrance-free, and made safe certified, meaning they are screened against thousands of known and suspected harmful chemicals.

And best of all, you literally use one product, but you mix it with different amounts of water to make your kitchen spray, your bathroom cleaner, your laundry detergent, your produce wash, your glass cleaner, literally everything. It does not smell. It does not give me headaches. It does not give me rashes or itchiness from clothes because you are. Remember, we're using this for laundry. We're using this for literally everything. And it works so well. Everything gets so clean. And I know that I'm protecting myself from all of those long-term issues too. And I'm protecting my kittens who are much tinier than me. So anything they're exposed to has a much greater impact on their little tiny systems. And they're running around on their little paws and then they're licking them.

so I'm protecting them too. Branch Basics is now available at Target, Target.com, Amazon, and branchbasics.com, so it's easier than ever to make the switch. And if you want to grab their premium starter kit, you can use code Liz Moody for 15% off at branchbasics.com. That's code Liz Moody for 15% off the premium starter kit at branchbasics.com. And when they ask you where you heard about us, please make sure to mention the show. That is at branchbasics.com and use code Liz Moody. I'm genuinely confused how masterclass gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes. I use it when I want to learn things directly like the cooking class from Thomas Keller has all of the wisdom that you would normally have to go to culinary school for.

But also, I'm being honest, this is like a use case I don't hear a lot of people talking about. I'll just watch it for entertainment when I want to do something that's far more interesting than scrolling. Christina Aguilera taught me to sing, Shan Boudrum's art of mastering confidence. and sex appeal class. It's 10 out of 10. There's menopause classes with leading doctors. There's script writing with Mindy Kaling. Literally, you name it, they're on masterclass. And it is such a good way to get off your phone, but have something that's like not quite as long or hard to get into as a TV show or a movie and that it just keeps you entertained and interested. And you are learning. There are over 200 classes from the world's best, all for just $10 a month when billed annually.

And you get unlimited access to every class on the platform. so you can learn at your own pace whenever you want on your phone, your computer, or even an audio mode like a podcast. If you're looking to stop scrolling and start consuming entertaining content that makes you feel excited and helps you learn, Masterclass is it. And the best part, every membership comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee so you can start learning risk-free. Right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody, Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. So there was two things that you talked about there that I think were really interesting.

One, I love that you were like, oh, maybe he didn't get the email. Maybe I need to get in touch with him another day. I think, or another way. I think sometimes we're so quick to attribute somebody's not responding or silence on the other end is like, oh, something must be wrong with us. And I think that you were like, no, it's not about me. I should just find another contact method. That's a really powerful message for how we perceive others' reaction to us in so many parts of our lives. Yes, definitely. We take it very personally, and the solution is always going to be persistence. I used to think about that when I was working as a full-time magazine editor is sometimes people would pitch me like 13 times, and I would finally answer the

email and say yes to a really great article. idea on the 13th time. And it's not because anything was really different. It was just they caught me in a different time of my day, in a different frame of mind. And if they hadn't kept following up in that way, they never would have caught me in that moment, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Let me give me a similar example. Years ago, I had a newsletter for people who wanted to figure out how to make a living without a job and how to turn their interest into income and be their own boss. So I contacted, I sent all these press releases and nobody got back to me. So I sent like a plan, like a day planner to a big publication. And anyway, so they have something visible on their desk. So they got in touch

with me and they said, well, we're not going to do an article on this, but we are doing an article on two family incomes earners downsizing to be a one person earning family. And we're going to do a sidebar with tips. Could you write that? And I said yes. I knew nothing about it, but I just said yes. Because I figured, how hard can it be? I'll use some common sense tips. I'll call some financial planners and I wrote them. I love that. Sometimes you just have to say yes and then go, okay, I know you're going to do that,

but this person does and this person does, I'll figure it out. Absolutely, especially in the age of the internet. Honestly, like that whole process has become so much easier. You just Google. Yep, absolutely. And the second thing you said that I thought was really interesting was that he got together with a group of other failing students. And I know that you talk about the idea of kind of having imposter syndrome support groups.

Can you talk about that a little bit? That's what I did. When I first heard about this thing called imposter syndrome when I was a graduate student, my head was nodding like a bobblehead doll and looked around the room and everybody else was nodding their head. And we decided to start little impostero support group. I think it is incredibly important to find, even if it's one other person, but to have somebody who's an accountability partner or somebody you can talk to. But I want to say this, you don't want to get stuck there.

And I see women doing that a lot, like where they kind of spiral into this. Like, yeah, but you don't understand. This is the big one. I know I'm going to, I know I did well last time, but this is the big project. I'm going to fail. It's going to be terrible. And researchers have found that adolescents, it's called co-ruminating, adolescents who dwell on negative thoughts and feelings with their friends,

actually experience higher levels of depression, and anxiety. Oh, wow. So talk about it, but don't get stuck there. I mean, I often joke that with my friends and I, we might talk about how fat we feel. I never feel any thinner at the end of that conversation. So we can really get stuck there. So make sure you're in a group where it's not just going to be a pep talk, you know, like, you've got this and you can do it. You know, you really, because when you feel like an imposter, if somebody's just saying, oh, you've got nothing to worry about, you're going to be great. That's not helpful because you really have anxiety about this. And it makes you feel like they don't really understand. So what would be like the ideal feedback you'd be

getting from a group just to know that you're, I don't know, you're not over ruminating and you're not also getting false praise or cheer. What's the sweet spot there? I would want to be in a group where I could say, could somebody read this page, just sting this proposal I read and give me some honest feedback about how I can make it better. Yeah, I like that. So it's almost like shifting more into the pragmatic and somebody else who can look at your work, evaluate your work, and say, perhaps you don't have the clearest perspective on your work. Right. Or I've got to have this tough conversation. Could I practice it with you guys and do some role playing? I mean, very practical kind of ways to help each other, not just roll in it. I love that. I love that. Okay,

I'd love to talk about some of the other, like, sneaky ways that imposter syndrome impacts our lives. Like, I thought it was so interesting that you connect it to overpreparing and procrastination, that those are basically coping mechanisms for imposter syndrome. Can you talk about that a little bit? Part of that comes from Pauline Clance and Suzanne Iams, who originally coined the term imposter phenomena. They talked about different coping and protecting mechanisms. In other words, imposter syndrome isn't just an interesting self-help topic, that these feelings lead

two behaviors in the form of these coping mechanisms. And when we develop these mechanisms, we're trying to do the best we can. We're trying to take care of ourselves. We're trying to manage the anxiety of waiting to be found out and to avoid being found out. So for one person, it's overworking, over preparing, staying longer, studying harder, working harder, not because it's required, right? We all have to work hard. But out of the sense that I have to work harder to kind of cover up for my supposed in ineptness. A hundred years ago, Liz, I was on a talk show in Boston, you know, kind of pre- Oprah, and it was me and a couple other people, and they had imposter syndrome.

And what was a medical student? And the host said, Karen, this is ridiculous. You're a medical student. Obviously, you're intelligent. And she said, no, not really. I just work harder than everyone else. On the other end of that is, you know, not so much the overworking, over-preparing, but kind of flying under the radar, holding back, not raising your hand, not going for something

more challenging, not starting or scaling your business or writing your book. The sensitive I can kind of keep my head down, nobody will notice me and it'll be safer there. So how do we stop relying on these coping mechanisms? Like, could you give us a few action steps that we could use to overcome those humps? Well, the first step is to understand that these patterns are serving us. So it's to step back and say, what does my pattern help me get? What does my pattern help protect me from? and what does my pattern help me avoid? So your pattern might help you avoid humiliation or failure or disappointment. If you procrastinate chronically, guess what?

You get time to do stuff you'd rather do. If you work insanely hard, you're probably going to be successful. So all of these things are designed to help us in some way. But here's the key, always at a cost. We always pay a price for the protection that we get. And so then you have to step back and say, what will happen if I never change this pattern? What opportunities and experiences might I miss out?

What is the price? So once you can identify, here's what I'm getting, here's what it's costing me. Now you can make a conscious choice. Before it was just as lousy as pattern, right? But now you can say, well, gee, it's protecting me. I think I'm going to keep this lousy pattern. Or you get to say the price is too high and I'm going to look at doing some things differently. It also strikes me when you mentioned that doctor that she might have been nervous about, like, being perceived by others differently.

Like, she might have been nervous about coming off as braggie. And I think that's another part of imposter syndrome is, like, we feel like if we step into our full power, if we step into our whole light, people will be like, oh, she's like so full of herself. She's so braggy. Yeah. And I think that's much more of fear of women. And also culturally, that's an issue in many cultures as well. well of being humble and suddenly you're studying an American school or working for an American company and you're expected to kind of brand yourself and promote yourself and that's so in

conflict with your culture. But I do think more specifically for women, there is that fear that people will think we're full of ourselves and they're not going to like us. So what do we do about that? One, how do we overcome the fear, I would say. But then two, I think sometimes it's real. Like I have girlfriends who are afraid to put their accomplishments on their dating profiles or even talk about them on their first date, they're looking for heterosexual partnerships usually. And they're worried that men will judge them for those. And they have found that to actually be true, that they are less successful dating. Sadly, they may not be wrong. Yeah. So what do we do about both the perception element and not wanting that perception,

but then also the very real reality? Well, I think it's, you know, understanding that the reality is there. And I got to say, I don't know if I went on a, you know, going on a date, I don't care what the gender of the person was. I don't know that I find it all that interesting to have them go on about how great they are or all their accomplishments. I think there's ways that you can talk about things without sounding self-promotional. I think there's ways you can do it in a humble kind of way. Sometimes I've been in situations where I'm talking about things I've done. For example, I might say I've spoken over 100 universities in the U.S., Canada, Japan, and the UK. But then I might add to that, I'm not telling you this to impress you, Liz.

I'm telling you this because I want you to understand and your listeners to understand that this is a very international phenomenon. So you can kind of explain why you're telling folks about that. Or you could say, you know, I mentioned that because I worked so hard. And after all this hard work, I really feel good that I was able to accomplish X. It's interesting to even have the self conversation about like why you would mention it. Am I trying to impress somebody else? How do I want them to view me, et cetera, et cetera? Like it's interesting to even ask yourself like, why am I listing my accomplishments?

Because I think sometimes it could probably be for very positive reasons. And sometimes it can be because you need validation or other less positive reasons. Right. It's ego kind of stuff. I feel that often on airplanes. I seem to sit next to people who have tell me about their entire life and everything they've ever done. I leave knowing so much about them.

And they've never asked me one question. And there's a part of me that I'm saying, do you know that I have a best selling book? Do you know that I spoke in all the world? But I was like, why, what is that in me that has this need to let them know who I am and does it really matter? And I just kind of take a deep breath and let it be their show. And I think that if you can have that conversation with your. yourself, you can, I don't know, it's like you can kind of work on that quiet confidence of

feeling that self-love and self-appreciation that you don't need it to come externally in the same way. Exactly. You wrote in the book that confidence comes from taking risks, owning the wins, and learning from the losses. It was a really simple sentence, but it completely stopped me in my tracks because it suggested that taking risks is inherent to building confidence. Do you think that that's true? Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. And regardless of how it turns out, you know, it's not about taking risks and succeeding. It's taking a risk and going, well, that business flopped or, well, that wasn't the best way to go. But you still would have learned something in the process. Would you want to have your headstone say, she could have been a great writer, but she was too afraid to try? Maybe you don't make it to Broadway. But you still get up on stage and you were in these, you know, amazing local productions or, yeah, you're not unsettling. Saturday Night Live, but you know, you got up and did some stand-up and tried some things. And it's just, it's the, it's the doing it that really matters. But I think there's something about where if you don't try, you can always tell yourself like, oh, I could have made it to Broadway. I could have made it to Saturday Night Live. And the second you try, you take away that little bit of narrative that you can cling to. Yeah, absolutely. But how fulfilling is that going to be in old age? You know, there's studies that show that the biggest, you know, regrets people have is the things that they didn't do. It's not that the things that they did do.

We have Dan Pink on an episode and he talks. I think he said one of the biggest regrets of people was not taking risks and that almost always, like with some caution, you know, but almost always you should take the risk when presented with the opportunity. And talk to the right people when you're going to take a risk. You know, we often go to friends and family who are very risk averse and they're going to tell us, you know, play it's say. and that's too risky and you know you don't know anything about that. Rumi said when something like when embarking on a journey never asked for directions from someone who has never left home. Ooh, I love that. That is powerful. That's one way I would say that we can become better at taking

risk is to ask the right people about the risk. Do you have any other tips for becoming better at taking risk and knowing what risks are worth taking? I'm a big fan of small steps. I mean, it sounds kind of intuitive, but I used to, I had a newsletter called Changing Course, which is for people who wanted to make a living without a job and leave their job and go out on their own. It wasn't called Jump Off a Cliff newsletter. It was called Changing Course, right? It's small steps, and you might try something and it doesn't work out. Then you kind of course correct, but now you know that that wasn't the direction you wanted to go. You know, as I was in my corporate job, I came out with a line of greeting cards that I drew myself and I had them printed and I walked into bookstores.

And it was very stressful to have the owner like looking through the cards and going, nope, I don't want to give them back to me or say, yeah, I'll order these and I'll order those. I didn't ultimately stick with it because it was just parts of the business I didn't care for. But I'm so glad I did it. Like I said I was going to do it and I did it. It doesn't mean anything's lost now and now I have more information and I'm going to try something else. When you think about strength and resilience, like your ability to feel energized, to recover well,

to stay strong as you get older, what do you think that actually comes from? Most people say working out or good nutrition, and yes, of course that matters. But there is a biological foundation underneath all of that that most people are completely overlooking. I have been diving deep into this lately with the team at timeline and what I've learned has genuinely shifted how I think about my own health. Every single movement that your body makes, every step, every workout, every muscle contraction depends on energy produced at the cellular level.

And at the center of that is your mitochondria. Here is the thing that nobody tells you, certainly nobody told me. Starting around age 30, our mitochondria naturally become less efficient. More get damaged, more become sluggish, and over time that impacts your energy, your strength, your recovery, and your resilience. Most of us respond by pushing more. we're like noticing these things and we're adding in more protein. We're trying to fix it with more supplements.

We're trying to do harder workouts. And those things do help. But timelines research suggests that we also need to be supporting the cellular machinery underneath. And that is exactly what their supplement, mitochondria, does. It contains urolithin A, which helps your body clear out damage mitochondria and support healthier ones so that your cells can produce energy more efficiently. Because this is happening to your cells, it's going to impact.

your entire body, your immune system, your muscles. One study found that taking mitochondere increased muscle strength by 12% in four months with no change in exercise routine, it's going to impact your energy, your sleep, your skin, your cell health impacts all of this, and urolithine A keeps your cells healthy. Timeline has done over 15 years of research and testing on this one product, urolithin A, which, by the way, most of us lack the gut bacteria to synthesize naturally. That's why many of us need to supplement it to get the benefits. This has become a staple supplement for me. It is my top way to support how I want to look and feel as I age.

Support yourselves and how you age with mitopure gummies from Timeline. Visit Timeline.com slash Liz and save up to 39% on your mitopure gummies. That is timeline.com slash Liz. I very rarely get genuinely excited about skincare, but this is one of the most innovative products that I have come across in years. And I'm so obsessed with it. I've been telling all of my friends to get it. So now I need to tell you guys.

Here's some science first. Your skin isn't just getting older. It's being actively broken down by something called senescent cells. These are cells that have stopped functioning but refused to die. They sit there releasing inflammatory signals, breaking down your collagen, degrading your skin barrier, and accelerating every visible sign of aging. Scientists call them zombie cells and as they accumulate, they are one of the primary drivers of how old your skin looks and feels. The team at one skin, a group of female longevity research, researchers and PhDs spent five years testing over 900 peptides to figure out how to help reduce the accumulation of senescent cells. And they finally landed on it. OSO1, the first peptide scientifically studied to reduce skin's biological age at the molecular level. OSO1 goes in and it clears out the senescent cells so it helps skin function like healthier, younger looking skin. It is not masking the signs of aging. It's not targeting one thing. It is actually rolling the clock back at a cellular level. I've been using the face moisturizer for almost six months now and I love it so much. It feels amazing. It goes on

really smoothly. It's not tacky at all. And I actually see a difference, which I just feel like is never the case with skincare. You want to always like see a real difference and you're kind of like, do, do I? Do I? And this I genuinely do. Because it's clearing the senescent cells, it doesn't just target one thing. So my skin looks firmer. It looks glowier. The texture feels driest. dramatically smoother. And I feel like you can see that too. I also love the body moisturizer. It dries down really quickly, which is always a pet peeve of mine with moisturizers. I hate that like sticky feeling when you go to put your clothes on. This does not do that. But it does moisturize really, really well. And then again, I'm reducing my skin's

biological age. I am not making it just look younger. I am making it actually younger. One skin has four peer reviewed clinical studies in over 10,000 five star reviews. The data backs everything up for a limited time, get 15% off with code Liz at one skin.co slash Liz. Again, that's 15% off at one skin.com with code Liz. What about that fear of failure? Do you have any strategies for getting to that place with failure where you're really dealing with it in a healthy way versus berating yourself or feeling like crap or feeling like you shouldn't try anything ever again?

You know, being an entrepreneur, it happens all the time. My co-founder at Impostasium Institute, we've been trying different things and like something didn't work out. We're like, well, now we know that doesn't work or well, we learn something there. And we just try to bounce back more quickly. Because what did Nelson Mandela say? He never fails. He only learns. It's great advice. It's just, it's really hard in the moment because I think there's first, like, there's the, I don't know if it's like excuse making, but you want to be like, well, it's because this person knows this person. Like you have all these reasons for stuff that things went wrong that have nothing to do with you. And then there's the flip side where you're like, it's all because of me.

And if I were a better person or if I were smarter, I would have made this work. And I just think there's like so there's a stew of negative emotions going on there that's really hard to climb out of. Yeah. I, you know, and I don't want to suggest that it's easy to climb out of them. Carol Dweck wrote a wonderful book called Mindset, and she has a chapter for parents. And the typical dinner time conversation with kids, school-age kids, is what did you learn in school today? To which the kids say, nothing, right? Or I don't remember, which is what we said as kids.

Dweck said, wouldn't it be more interesting as have a parent, we said, you know, once a week, every day, once a month, let's all go around the table and talk about something that was difficult, challenging, or we failed at, and how we dealt with it all start. Because few of us got those messages growing up. You know, we don't see a lot on the realities of subbacks and failures. We think, especially, you know, with social media, the internet, you know, we see somebody, we think they're this overnight success. Steve Martin in his biography, he worked like crazy failure after failure after failure for 10 years. And then suddenly there was something. you know, he had some break and he became this big thing. And he was described as an overnight

success. I think it's important to read biographies and look at the struggle and the realities of people who are at the top of their game and to know that it wasn't this kind of straight shot. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Is there anything that you can say to like knowing, okay, so I'm thinking about people who are like, well, I, it's almost the flip side of imposter syndrome. I definitely should start this huge business right now. I should quit my job and move to this country and start this business. I should definitely publish a novel, this almost like outsized confidence that isn't necessarily earned in those areas. Is there a way that we can recognize in ourselves when imposter syndrome is the thing that's holding us back and when it's actually something that perhaps we should question whether we should do or not?

You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Because I think overconfidence can be just as detrimental as lack of confidence. There are people who haven't really done their homework or haven't, you know, paid any kind of dues who have outsized expectations for how successful they've become. It's quite a balancing act because I really encourage people to kind of shoot high and to go for it and to say, why not you? right? Because so often there's the opposite happens. We have that little voice that says, who do you think you are? And I always encourage people to change the question to who do you think you are to not go for it. On the flip side, is there like a balance there, though, of like how do you

mitigate against overconfidence? Well, I think you'll find out pretty quick, you know, if it's not going to, if it doesn't work out. Honestly, Liz, I don't have a good solution to that. I think it depends that the person is competent versus there are people who have irrational self-confidence syndrome. You know, they really think they know far more than they really do or can do far more than they really do. I think we also have a bias. I think women have a bias against overconfident people. I tell a story in my book. I used to work for a company that was kind of like a daytimeer's company that we competed with Franklin Covey system. And we met with this guy. I was with the president of the company. We met with this guy. And he was like this young hot show.

shot and he kept referring to himself like, I'm like Tiger Woods. He was comparing himself to Stephen Covey. You know, he's like Nicholson or I like Tiger Woods. I'm like Tiger Woods. And we're kind of looking at each other like we're rolling our eyes. Like yeah, my buddy. Well, 10 years later, the guy writes this book. He's this big thing. And who writes a blurb on the back of his book with Stephen Covey? Right. But we were like, what a jerk. But he believed in himself. And he kept going. So I don't have. a good answer for how you know when you really shouldn't be that confident. I think things will happen along the way that will give you information you need to accelerate or put the brakes on

or, oh, maybe I do need more practice or experience here. I mean, it almost sounds like it's better just to err on the side of being overconfident. Like it sounds like why not? And then if you get enough pushback on that, maybe readjust. But I had something in my life that was similar to that, too, where he kind of annoyed everybody by having so much like bluster and talking himself up. But he's immensely successful now. So it obviously worked for him. Yeah, it worked for him. I also think there's like a fine line between acknowledging your own skills and acknowledging

privilege. You can say, oh, it was just good timing or it was just luck. And that can be ways that you're manifesting imposter syndrome. But sometimes it is timing or luck or privilege, whether that's. financial or the color of your skin or anything else like that. So how do you have any advice for navigating walking that line? Oh, absolutely. The reality is things like luck, timing, connections, personality. They play a legitimate role. They're not an excuse for a success. Maybe you've got an amazing break. Maybe you did grow up in an affluent community. Maybe you had

these amazing connections. Maybe we're in the right place at the right time. Maybe you have a great personality, which is not an excuse for success. It's a valid skill set. It's what you do with these things that count. Because you can look at a yearbook in any afloat community and see kids who had every opportunity in the world and still couldn't get out of their own way. And then you could also find folks who did not have a lot of breaks or connections.

They shouldn't have been, quote-unquote, successful. And yet they put in the effort and the persistence and kept going. And when they did get a break, they capitalized on it. It's what you do with these things that really matter. I can be frustrating though sometimes when you feel like you're on the wrong side of privilege and it's so much easier for people who are on the right side of it. Oh, especially if they don't see that.

If they think, you know, what is the expression? I forget who originally said it, but it's like you were born on third base and you act like you hit a triple. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. This isn't like imposter syndrome, but do you have any advice for dealing with that, the negative feelings involved in recognizing that in a question?

quality? Well, I think we all in different facets have more or less privilege. So I think it's about recognizing that there's certain ways that things are certainly easier for me because I'm white, more challenging in other ways, you know, because I'm a woman, easier for me because I don't have a disability. I was going to say middle class, but I grew up working class. I thought I was middle class. I didn't know. I didn't understand I was really working class for a long. time. So I think it's recognizing that we all have those privileges and then seeing what can how can I use the privilege that I do have to help make a difference in someone else's life who may not have the same privileges. I love that. I also do think that last bit is so important. I always feel

better. It sounds so trite and so dumb. But when you're actually trying to help somebody outside of yourself, whether it's like a mentorship, like literally anything that takes you outside of yourself, even if it's just like a phone call with somebody to talk about something going on in their life, it feels so much better than like sitting there and lusting over that, which you don't have and you will never have because of the circumstances of your life. Oh, I couldn't agree more. You get this kind of high from helping and being of service. Yeah, you really do.

Aren't there studies that show that it makes us feel better than riches and like all these things that we think will make us happy? Yes, there's absolutely research on that. Yes. Yeah, that's fascinating. I would love to touch on some of your list of rights because I found those so powerful. I was curious if you have any favorites from that. Yeah, this is a list of rights that I put in my book that I just were one of the many things

that got handed around when I was in graduate school that none of us put our name on and just put out into the universe. So I have no idea who actually wrote it. But it was a list of 25 rights that we're all perfectly entitled to, but we sometimes act as if we're not. So it's the right to have an off day, the right to not understand. understand, the right to make a mistake, to right to fail and get up and try again, the right to get our questions answered, even if the other person is busy. When I would do workshops, I'd give

people this list, and I'd say, just try to avoid intellectualizing, just check off any of these rights you find you have a hard time granting yourself. And women would just go check, check, check, check. But, you know, when you think about it, if you knew you had the right to have enough day, to not be perfect, to struggle to master something, to ask for help, to not know everything, there will be nothing to feel like an imposter about. It's so powerful. And the full list is in your book, but literally every single one, I was just like, it's so crazy to me how quickly we forget that we have these rights.

Yeah, and that's part of the reframing. Again, when you're having, it's not about never thinking these things. It's about hitting the pause button and having kind of the tools and the information, the insight to be able to talk yourself down faster. A lot of it comes from the outside too. Like I think one of them was like the right to not be patronized. And it's nice to have that distance in the moment when somebody might be treating you as less than in some way or not valuing your contribution or your work or something like that to step back and say, wait, no, I have the right to be treated with dignity. I have the right to be treated with respect.

I have the right not to be patronized to get that distance and acknowledge what you deserve in the way. those moments. Absolutely, not to be patronized, harassed, discriminated against. Well, I would also like to point out that the rights are not things that you earn. They're just things that you have. I think sometimes we feel like we have to achieve a certain level of success or value in other people's eyes to have these rights, but these are just rights that you have no matter what. Absolutely. And I think that's hugely important. All right, can you just leave us with one homework assignment, something really actionable that we can all start doing today to conquer imposter syndrome in our own lives?

Next time you have what I consider a normal imposter moment. Again, it's about kind of stopping, pausing, but zooming out to get the bigger picture, I think imposter syndrome has become over-psychologized. I think we need to do more contextualizing and less personalizing. What do you mean by that? To go, well, of course I feel this way. I'm in a creative field. Or of course I feel this way.

I'm a first-generation student and I'm at Yale University now. Or of course I feel this way. I'm just starting a business or of course I feel this way, whether it's based on the field that you're in or the organizational culture. I did a podcast for the British Medical Journal. And there was a medical student and a new physician on. And they were lamenting the lack of positive feedback that they get in medical school. In the UK, they take an exam at the end of their studies.

The highest they can get is no concern. That's the best you can do is we have no concern. concerned about you, Liz. So I was saying, you know, that sucks. But here's the reality, whether you knew it or not, that's the culture you signed up for. That is medical culture. I want them to know that so that when these things happen, they realize it's not about them. They're in a culture where there's a lot of shaming. There's not a lot of positive feedback. You're only getting pointed out the things you did wrong. If you know that, you can put it into that context and say, It's not about me.

It's what the steep environment. Which is also empowering because in a lot of situations, not all, but at a lot of them, you chose that environment. You made that choice. And I think that's important. I interviewed somebody on the podcast who said that the original researchers who coined the idea of imposter syndrome after they talked about it, they like took it back because they realized that literally everybody had it.

So it wasn't actually a syndrome. It was just part of life. Is that true or was that misquoted to me? No, I don't think that's the case. I know Pauline Clance and Suzanne I'ms. I know that they take offense as to a lot of people in academia, psychologists, and it being called Imposter Syndrome. The original term is imposter phenomenon.

Because in their world, the syndrome is like a psychological diagnosis of a condition. I use syndrome in like the second description in the Miriam Webster Dictionary, which is kind of a set of behaviors and patterns that lead us to a certain place. But no, I don't think that. They didn't change their mind. Yeah. It's an interesting idea, though, that it's like so widely common that it's just, it's almost like we don't need to pathologize it in that way because it's just universal, you know? This is what I will say is the fact that let's just take the 70% of us feel this

way. That does mean we are in the majority, which, you know, I have to break into people. You're not special, right? A lot of people feel this way. But also, it begs the question, what's up with the other 30? What is up with the other 30? Well, my theory is some part of the the 30 has a whole different issue, the irrational self-confidence syndrome, like the smartest guy in the room, the narcissist, we don't want to be them. We want to be like that, the minority within the minority who are genuinely humble, but I've never felt like an imposter. And these are people I refer to as humble realists. And the more we can move towards thinking like a humble realist, which means looking at having a realistic understanding of competence and having a healthy

response to failure, mistakes, criticism, and fear. To me, that's how you can unlearn imposter syndrome. It's having something else to replace it with. That makes sense. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're up to these days where people can find you if they want to explore more of your work? Yeah, it's very easy. It's imposter syndrome.com. A co-founded imposter syndrome institute. And we're focusing on licensing my intellectual property, whether it's training people who are coaches, you know, how to work with folks who experience imposter syndrome. We train some people really all over the world to deliver a talk I give called Rethinking Imposture Syndrome.

But what we're really moving, Liz, is to be able to, on an enterprise level, is to work with large organizations. You know, I speak to companies like Google and Pfizer and to help them kind of become an imposter-free organizational culture and makes some real changes on the organizational level. I love that because that goes back to the things we were talking about, which is like you can do so much work internally, but at a certain point, systems also need to change. Yes, absolutely. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat today and sharing all of your wisdom. Thank you. I love being here. I hope you loved this episode with Dr. Young. If you're

new here, make sure that you're subscribed so you don't miss out on any future episodes. We have amazing ones coming up, including an episode about how to get over heartbreak and a leading researchers sharing how to change your epigenetics to change your health destiny. Ooh, that is a good one. I am so excited to share. If you love this episode, I would so appreciate you sharing a link on your social media or with someone in your real life who you think would benefit. Imposter syndrome is so insidious as we talked about in this episode.

There are so many people who are suffering from it and not even realizing that it's the thing behind their procrastination or over preparation or why they're not starting that business or going after that dream. I would love to help this research reach more people, and it's also the single best way that you can support this podcast. Seriously, all of the massive growth that we have experienced this year has been thanks to all of you guys, texting friends and family members and putting it on your company Slack channel.

And I am so grateful for and appreciative of all of it. Also, if you did love the episode, I would so appreciate a quick rating or review on Apple podcast or Spotify. I am so close to my goal of 2,000 reviews. And if literally only a teeny tiny fraction of the people listening took a quick moment of their time to write one, we would be literally thousands over that number. I know it's annoying when podcasters ask all the time to do this, but they really do help other people find the podcast, which is why we're asking all of the time.

I also read all of them and I am so grateful for every single one. They just make me feel really wonderful. So thank you to everybody who has written one. And if you can find it in your heart to do one, I would massively appreciate it. Okay, I love you. And I will see you next week on the next episode of the Healthier Together podcast.