The Liz Moody Podcast - How You—Yes, YOU!—Can Help Make Wellness More Diverse and Accessible

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

Today’s long overdue podcast is about why accessibility and diversity have been such a problem in the wellness world, and how we can all begin to support that changing. I wanted to feature people from different aspects of the wellness world to really paint a larger picture about the limiting factors at play, from doctor bias to the lack of diversity in workout studios to the unique challenges of breaking into the food startup world—to illustrate that there’s no part of the wellness world that’s untouched by this problem. My first guest today is Chrissy King, a writer, speaker, fitness and strength coach, as well as the teacher of the Anti-Racism for Wellness Professionals Class, which I’m signed up for. You can find Chrissy online at chrissyking.com, and on Instagram @iamchrissyking. We talk about why anti-racism work is fundamental to wellness, what you can personally do when your favorite wellness spots (gyms, restaurants) aren’t diverse, and what needs to happen AFTER we educate ourselves in order to create real change. My next guest today is Ibhraeem Basir, the founder of A Dozen Cousins, one of my favorite food brands. You can find A Dozen Cousins online at adozencousins.com and on Instagram @adozencousins. We talk about what anyone can do to support the expansion and success of Black-founded businesses, his advice for anyone worried about cultural appropriation in the food world , and his company’s social initiatives to help bring healthy eating to communities in need. My last guest today is Dr. Tosin Odunsi, an Obstetrics & Gynecology physician. She’s the founder of The Mentorship Squad, a community comprised of Black and Latinx women seeking mentorship along their journey to becoming U.S. physicians. You can find Dr. Odunsi on instagram @lifebytosin and online at lifebytosin.com. We discuss why many common wellness treatments today actually have their roots in the abuse of Black people, why Black people consistently have higher rates of acute and chronic diseases, including COVID-19, and why only 5% of doctors are Black, and only 2% are Black women—and how we can help change those numbers. This is an important episode, and I hope its startles you, inspires you, and makes you think, I’d love to hear your thoughts and learnings on Instagram–please screenshot and tag me (@lizmoody) and my guests and share your thoughts. PS: Healthier Together is officially a number one best-seller! You can get your copy on Amazon or at lizmoody.com/cookbook. Please keep sending me your creations on Instagram—they make me so happy! Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthyer Together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a longtime journalist and cookbook author, and I am so excited to share today's episode with you, which is, to be frank, long overdue. The last few weeks have been a huge process of learning and unlearning for me. I'm one of those people who is like, oh, I'm definitely not racist, but at the same time, my entire Instagram feed looked like me, my entire friend group looked like me. and to be frank, all of my podcast guests looked like me. I was afraid of what I didn't know how to navigate

and afraid of the massive collective work that we need to do in the world. And so even when I was called in to do the work and offered the support to do so, I chose not to. Instead of educating myself, I turned a blind eye and I fell back on the faulty self-assurance that I'm a quote-unquote good person. But here's the thing. Being a good person actually means learning when it's time to

change and recognizing the work I have to do. Work I should have started a long, long time ago. Today, I'm having on three amazing guests, a doctor, a business owner, and a fitness and lifestyle coach to talk about why accessibility and diversity have been such a problem in the wellness world and how we can all begin to support that changing. I wanted to feature people from different aspects of the wellness world to really paint a larger picture about the limiting factors at play, from Dr. Bias to the lack of diversity in workout studios. to the unique challenges of breaking into the food startup world. To illustrate that there's no part of the wellness world that's untouched by this problem,

there are still a lot of the core tenants of the Healthier Together podcast here, a mix of inspiring ideas and super practical advice, the type of fun dinner table style conversation that feels like you're hanging out with us. And it's still a wellness podcast and a wellness episode because let me be so clear about this. You cannot talk about wellness without talking about racism. We talk about this a lot more in this episode, but when a huge portion of our population is unwell, whether it's from the chronic stress of simply existing in the world or the far higher prevalences of both chronic and acute diseases, we need to address that before we talk

about yoga classes and green smoothies. To that end, I just want to share a few of the things that I'm doing going forward. I purchased me and white supremacy by Layla F. Saad, which I talk about with Chrissy King in the episode, but it's a workbook, journaling, exercise book designed to help white people examine our own bias and racism, and I highly, highly recommend it. The interactivity, I think, is key to really internalizing these learnings. I'd also like to make myself available as a transparent resource to any black creators who want to talk about how I price my content in hopes of lessening the income gap between white and black influencers. If that's you and you want to talk,

just email Liz at Liz Moody.com, and I am wide open and available to you. you. I'll be continuing to share resources as I find them and engage with them so we can all do this work together. And of course, I will be voting for the people I believe will create change in this world. I'll be making a concerted effort to put my money where my mouth is and support black-owned businesses in my community and the country at large. In an effort to help you do the same, I'll be sharing products that I love from black-owned businesses every single month on this podcast. And these ads will be free of charge to those businesses, including the two spots. that are in this very episode.

I'm also committing to featuring far more black and indigenous people of color on this podcast in my normal long form interviews to tell their stories. If you ever have guests that you want me to highlight, please, please, DM me on Instagram. I'm at Liz Moody, and I always love your suggestions. I'd also love to hear your feedback, reactions, and especially what you're learning from this episode. So please tag me and my guests with a screenshot in any of your thoughts. I learned so much that shocked and inspired me recording these interviews, and I cannot wait to hear what you learn to.

My first guest today is Chrissy King, and she is a writer-speaker, fitness and strength coach, as well as the teacher of the anti-racism for wellness professionals class, which I am signed up for and I'm so excited to take. You can find Chrissy online at chrissyking.com and on Instagram at I am Chrissy King. Hi, Chrissy. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Hi, Liz. I'm so excited to chat with you. Thank you for having me on. Can you just tell the audience for people who might not be familiar with you, who you are and sort of what you do? Sure. So my name is Chrissy King. I am a Brooklyn-based writer, speaker, and still do a bit of fitness and wellness coaching as well. I was in the fitness space doing a lot of training of clients in person and virtually

for a long time. And then I just transitioned more into writing and a lot of speakers. And a lot of speaking. And so I'm still doing a little bit of fitness coaching, but more doing a lot more work around education in the fitness space, particularly as it pertains to anti-racism, diversity, inclusion, and equity. Yeah, we're going to definitely talk about your anti-racism seminar in a little bit, which I signed up for. I'm very excited to take. But can we start off by just talking about what, obviously, this is a very specific moment in time. And a lot of things are happening right now that haven't happened before and a lot of conversations are happening that haven't happened haven't happened before. Can you talk about what you're seeing happening right now that is frustrating to you and what you're

seeing happening right now that's exciting to you? Absolutely. So to just give a little bit background prior to like even this time and history right now, I had started talking about the need for more diversity and inclusion and fitness spaces for years before this. And I also started talking about and writing about like how racism pertains to wellness and as people who are in the wellness space, why we have to be having these conversations about race. So for some of y'all, if you remember a rewind to 2017 and we had the KKK rallies in Charlottesville that were like a huge issue and violence erupted around that and was a really scary time just to see like this surge of white nationalism, right, in a way that we hadn't seen in a long time. So when that happened,

I started writing a lot about why fitness professionals need to be talking about this. And, you know, a lot of people were on board, but there were a lot of people who were like, no, thank you. That is not an issue that I'm going to be talking about in my business. So I got a lot of pushback in that time. And while I do think a lot of people kind of like woke up to the issues and how they're related, it still wasn't something that I got, not that I got support, but I don't, I don't feel like a lot of fitness professionals or wellness professionals were on board at that time. And so. So I've still continued to talk about it since then.

But at this particular point in time, you know, I have been doing a lot of webinars around this work. But when this last week happened, I just really was like, we have to talk about this again. So I brought this up again, you know. And this time around, there's been so much outpouring of people are like, yes, you're right. We need to talk about this in ways I haven't seen in the past. And so for me, that's really encouraging because I feel like. like finally people are starting to wake up to the realities of how this, how racism and white

supremacy plays out into every area of our lives and how collectively we all have to be dealing with us to create actual change. So that's been really, really encouraging to see. And I'm, again, a lot of seeing a lot of like platforms and brands and businesses that previously wanted to stay out of any talk that had to do anything with politics or race. And they're now being willing to have these conversations. And so that has been really, really encouraging. And have you seen anything that's frustrating? I mean, I think the thing that's frustrating is that, you know, while I'm happy some people are showing up to the conversation, what's frustrating for me is that this has always been the issues,

right? And, you know, this is not a new phenomenon. Police brutality by itself, but just like all issues around racism in this country is not anything new. These are the things that have always been happening. I think what's different now is that, you know, people are recording racism more than we were before, not we because I wasn't around them. But like in the 60s, right?

the same racism was happening, the Rodney King beating in 91. The same things are happening. It's just that now we're recording racism more. And so I think it's frustrating for me when I see a lot of people saying things like, oh, I can't believe this is happening in 2020. This is so, you know, unbelievable. And it's like, no, it's very believable. And it's frustrating to me that people have stayed in their own bubbles for so long that

they haven't recognized that this is the reality that people face all the time. And we always have faced as black people, as other people of color in this country, we've always faced this kind of oppression. So I think the frustrating thing is that people are just not realizing it. That's a little disheartening because it's a lived experience and reality for us. But again, I always, my approach to how I handle racism and liberation work in this regard is always with love as the foundation and not a love that's like spiritually bypassing or any of that nonsense. I don't believe in that. But to recognize, to treat you. people with loving compassion for where they are while also pulling them along to do better and being very honest about the truth and being really clear with them that these conversations are going to be uncomfortable, but discomfort is a part of this process. So while there can be compassion, you also have to be willing to push past that discomfort that you experience to create

actual change within yourself and to recognize the ways that you've been complicit in the ways that you, and I'm saying you as in the person, as in the person actively, engages in racism in their lives without realizing it. I think, you know, a lot of people, when they think of racism, right, they think of like the KKK or they think of using the N word, right? And those are like a very overt ways of racism, but racism shows up in people's lives and smaller ways all the time that they may not even recognize. And so to come to the reality that like, yes, I as a white person or a non-black person may have the best of intentions. That does not mean that I may not be engaging in racism in my life. And that's a really uncomfortable reality for

people, but you have to be willing to sit with those feelings and deal with it and work through it so that you can do better. A lot of your writing and your work has been focused on bringing that anti-racism message to the wellness and fitness industries. Can you talk about how that started for you and translating that anti-racism to those industries and then why you think it's so important that that exists within those industries? Absolutely. So I personally got into fitness myself as a person who just started working out probably like maybe eight or nine years ago. I started training probably like six or seven years ago and training clients. And at that time, I was still working in a corporate job. So training was something I was doing on the side. And a lot of things happened. Number one, like,

as I got more engaged in the fitness and wellness space, I started going to fitness conferences. I started, you know, like doing more education so that I could be a better practitioner. And I started noticing how white a lot of these spaces were. I started noticing how a lot of the speakers at conferences, diversity in the speakers, right? There was no people of color. There was no black people on stage. It was all people that look very much the same and they didn't look like me. And then also like just being in gym spaces, you know, talking about when I talk about experiencing racism, but like microaggressions, right, people, well-meaning people saying things that they don't understand are very racist, right? Things like, oh, you don't even sound like a black person. Like that,

what does that even mean, right? Or saying things like, you're not like other black people. All of the things are very offensive. I was actively being in spaces where my progressions were happening and then I was in the wellness industry as a practitioner going to these events and I didn't see people like myself. And so I remember when this first, when I started thinking about all these things, I was really nervous to speak out about this because I was like, I don't know, this might not be well received. But I remember I was working with a business coach and I told her, she's a white woman and I told her, I was like, her name's Jill Coleman. And I was like, Jill, I, um, I, I, um, I, want to write this article. I've been working on this article and the article is called,

it's finished only for thin white women. I'm like, but I'm honestly really scared to post this article because I just know there could be a lot of pushback. This is not like a popular opinion. And she really encouraged me to just speak my truth. She's like, just speak the truth. Like, it is what it is. And like the cards fall where they fall. And so I remember I posted that article. I was really, really scared. And I was like, one of those things where you post on the internet and they ran away for a few hours because I was like, I don't want to see what's happening. But when it came back, what was happening is that the article was getting widely shared across a bunch of different platforms. And people were, especially a lot of women of color were messaging me like, thank you for saying this is something I've been feeling for a long time.

But I just didn't know how to verbalize or I didn't feel comfortable verbalizing it. And so once that happened, I was like, for me, it was like a band-aid that ripped off because there's the things that I've always been in my heart. But I've just had a lot of fear around sharing and speaking about it. And because again, as a person is a black woman and you're, you're going to speak about something in an industry that is very white-centered and white dominant, it feels really scary. So once I did that, and it was just, yeah, it was like a band of the ripped off. And I just really started writing more from a place of authenticity because these are the things

that were on my mind and have always been on my mind and sharing my thoughts around it. And little by little, I just became more comfortable with my own voice. I became more comfortable sharing my own truth. I also, I went to school for social welfare and justice for cotton. college. So my background is in social welfare and justice as by trade, honestly. And then when I got into fitness, I see the parallels of how social justice are ignored in the fitness space. And so for me, it's like the perfect mix of like what I do and what I've been doing. But why I think it's so important that wellness practitioners be talking about this is because when we talk about wellness

and fitness, it is not just about nutrition. It's not just about how you move your body. It's not just about those two things is so much bigger. When we speak about wellness, it's about physical health, but also about mental, emotional, spiritual health. All of those things are part of how people are well and whole. And racism has an impact on mental health. It actually has an impact on physical health. There are tons of studies that show just being victims of racism leads to higher rates

of diabetes and higher rates of heart disease and higher rates of hypertension, right? And then we start thinking about other health disparities, particularly as it pertains to COVID and how the comorbidities with higher rates of the death related to COVID are the same things that people have a higher rate because of racism. Like all of these issues are tied in. And so I think it's so important that when we're talking about overall health of people, we think about all the varied ways that people are experiencing the world, the intersecting identities.

And I think for me, when we think about wellness, people's ability to feel safe in their bodies is at the top of the wellness list, right? Because it doesn't matter how much a person exercises or what they eat. If they don't feel safe and comfortable walking around in their bodies and they don't have that sense of safety, it has an impact on mental health. So again, you know, I just think there's so many ways that we talk about intersections of identity, those things have such a big impact on people's health. So I don't see how health and wellness practitioners, whatever the background is. I don't know how they can talk about helping people live healthy and whole lives

without realizing that all of us have different perspectives of how we live in this world and they impact us in major ways. So if I am understanding you correctly to the point of your original article, wellness is only sort of, the idea even that wellness is for thin white women is almost based on this very narrow definition of wellness as like going to your yoga class, drinking your green juice. And part of what you're doing is expanding the notion of what wellness is in the first place. what wellness is what wellness looks like you know wellness and you just said like it's this idea of like I'm going to go to my yoga class I'm having my green juice I look a certain way and you have a picture

like if you look at fitness magazines in general I think I think a lot of platforms are starting to do a better job right but like if you look at you see on a lot of major fitness magazines it's like a picture of this thin woman who is like yeah doing yoga just this like really like perfect body right Like not too muscular, but it's lean and it's very sculpted. She doesn't have any cellulite showing. It's very, you know, and then people get this idea of this is what I have to look like to be fit. And that's just not true.

And we think about the benefits of movement. For me, you know, the benefits of movement go far beyond what you look like, right? And all of us could benefit from moving our bodies and ways that feel good to us. But you don't have to look a certain way to do that. You don't have to have a lot of resources. You don't have to wear expensive athletic gear. You don't have to, you know, attend $30 yoga classes that may not be a accessible to you. That's not what it's about. But I think the picture of wellness and who wellness

is marketed to, mainstream wellness is marketed to is a very privileged group of people. And I think it alienates a lot of people outside of that dynamic. And that's really unfortunate because, again, moving our bodies, eating away, are nourishing and whole are really, really important to everyone's well-being. So your course or your seminar is called anti-racism for wellness professionals and you'll still have spots available, I believe, after this goes live. I think the first one I'm taking is on the day that this goes live. So I want everybody who's listening and who's intrigued to take that course. But can you just speak to a few of the ideas that you sort of cover in that seminar? Yeah. So, you know, it's, I'm going to be really clear with people that this is a

two-hour crash course, right? And I'm using that term because as we talk about racism, diversity, inclusion, equity, that is not something that can be covered. You will not walk away from the class. Like I know all the things now, right? Not possible. I do a class on diversity and inclusion, which I will probably run again at some point, which is like a whole other part of like how to put this into practice in your business. But when we're talking about anti-raisants for wellness professionals, a lot of the things we're going to cover in the class is a lot of self-reflection. And which is why I say it is going to be uncomfortable because I'm going to be really asking you to, to examine, I mean, teaching you the ways that racism show up in your life, but also asking

you to examine honestly how maybe you're putting some of these things into practice. So some the things we're recovering is like examining white supremacy, racism and bias in your own life and how you've been, how you're currently being complicit or how you have been complicit in the past, how to hold yourself accountable and other fitness professionals accountable. I think this is a really big part of the narrative is that I think it's really important as an industry that, you know, not that we are calling each other out, but we're calling each other in, meaning like if I see another fitness professional doing something that is, I believe, is like, you know, racist or problematic in some way that I can call them in,

meaning I can send them a message privately, not like I'm going to blast them on the internet. I can send them a message private and be like, hey, you did X, Y, and Z. I just want to explain this to you. And that people in the other end can, the receiving end of this information can take this information without being defensive and try it. And not that, you know, everyone's going to be right or wrong. It's not about a right or wrong. It's about listening to this person's perspective and trying to understand, right?

And that as a profession, we are demanding justice for all bodies, not just bodies that look a certain way, right? Or that we're not ignoring some issues that are happening in the fitness space or in the industry that affect certain bodies. So we're talking about that. We're also going to be talking about how to leverage privilege because all of us have privilege, right? And privilege gets a bad rap for people because they don't like to hear that word.

But the reality of the situation, especially when the word white is in front of the word privilege. But the reality of the situation is no matter what our identity, we all have, we all have as a black woman, there are multiple layers of privilege that I have. So we all have privilege. And how can we leverage that privilege to create actual change in the industry that we're in? And then also I'll be leaving people with resources to educate themselves on the intersection of racism and wellness and also how to continue doing this work.

Because as I said, this two-hour class is just going to give you a starting place of how you can start to put some of these things in practice and some of the things you need to think about yourself. but also how can you continue doing this work beyond the call? And ultimately, the goal is how can we all show up and better embody anti-racism practices year-round, not just when something major happens in the media, right? Because this has to be, that's something. I'm so happy that so many people are showing up to this conversation, but I want people to keep showing up 360 days of the year.

Not that they're posting about this every day, but that they're living these things in their life every day. Absolutely. A lot of the people who listen to this podcast are wellness professionals, but a lot of them are just wellness enthusiasts. If you had a message of anti-racism for wellness enthusiasts versus wellness professionals, what would that look like? I mean, a lot of the things are going to be the same.

I think the difference between enthusiasts and professionals is that enthusiasts don't have the added responsibility of, the added responsibility of interacting with all these clients. A lot of the work is the same. One book that I recommend for enthusiasts, and professionals. I'm going to talk about this on the call. If you are white or non-black, I highly, highly, highly recommend the book, me and white supremacy. I'm trying to tell you the book is going to make you uncomfortable. Have you got it? I started doing it yesterday. It's great because it's like a journaling workbook so you can actually sort of work through these things in an active way

rather than passively consuming information. Yes, absolutely. So I highly recommend everybody grab that book and read it, whether you're an enthusiast, whether you're a professional, whether you're in the wellness space at all. Like, everybody should read the book. And so, but I think also the important thing for everyone is, you know, making posts on social media and calling awareness to the things very important. People should do that. I want people to keep doing that.

But also, what's more important than that to me, though, is that we're having these difficult conversations with the people in our immediate circle, right? Because sometimes I feel like posting on social media, yes, it's a big deal. Yes, you're going to get feedback. pushback, probably. But it's way harder to have this conversation with your mom or your brother or your uncle or your best friend who's actively engaging in racism, whether they know it or not. Those are the conversations that you need to be having in your daily life. And it's really uncomfortable. It's really hard. But it's so necessary. And I think that people want to do these big, grandiose things, right?

And sure, do the big grandiose things. But talk to the people in your everyday life that you have influence over and have a conversation with them. encourage them to read books, watch movies or documentaries together to help y'all unlearn some of these things. That's work that all of us can be doing. That's easy work that we can do together that can make a huge difference. And do you think that that unlearning on an individual level trickles up, I guess, to systemic and societal change? Because I think my fear in all of this is so many people are wanting to educate and learn. And obviously that's the first step, but then will that create the change in the systems that we need to see? I mean, yeah, right? That's the,

that's the, that's the, that's the real thing when we talk about this piece of equity, right? I do think it's important for everybody to start at the place of particularly people new to this work. It is very, very important that they start at the place of examining how this is showing up in their own lives because it's really hard to make systemic changes unless individuals understand how how their actions and how their beliefs are played out in everyday life. Once you start to do this work, right, and you start to read the books, you start to read the documentaries, then you can start to see how this is in every, no matter what the industry is, right?

Like it's in policies, in government. It's everywhere. And so I think it is really, really important for people to start to do this work on their own individually. But then what's the next step and what's more important than not even more important, but what has to happen next is that people, people. people as a whole have to be willing to take that knowledge they have. And really, again, we talk about using your privilege, really call for change, systemic change in their organizations,

and their workplaces, in their government. And this is where things get dicey, right? Because when we start talking about conversations of equity, when you are used to being privileged and we start talking about equity, it feels like you're losing something, right? And that's where it gets really tricky for people because it's, I don't want to say it's easy, but it's easier to talk about it. It's easier to learn. But then when we're talking about now, I might have to give up something, then people are like, oh, wait a minute, I don't know if I want to give up anything, right? Because when we talk about privilege and power as it pertains to white supremacy in the systems that we have in place, like white privilege and right supremacy, like benefits white people,

right? Like, there is a lot of benefits that come along with that. Is it financial wealth, the wealth gap? Like, all these things play out. And so, When we talk about equity, that means that you may feel like you're losing something. And but it was something that you never earned, you know, like the systems that are set up in this country have allowed you these things that other people didn't have access to. And so when we start actually saying people have to put their money where their mouth is and I don't mean money like just giving away their money. I mean money like, hey, we need to restructure some systems in this country. We have to talk about how we have to talk about the pay gap in this country. I've talked about all these things.

Then it's like, oh, wait a minute. I don't know if I like that. I don't know if I like the sound of that. And so the point is there's a lot of work to be done. And it's not, when we start talking about change, change doesn't happen overnight. You know, and even we're talking about like the rioting, writing. I don't like to use the word rioting, but the protests that are happening right now, right? The country is experiencing a lot of protests right now that have been happening for a few days.

The Alabama bus boycott, which led to huge changes, that boycott lasted 380 days. It wasn't a five-day process. right? And so this can't, and that's why I say this can't be work that we're like, okay, we're committed to for a few days until something else happens in the media and we kind of move on from that. It has to be something that people are committed to long term. And with the bus boycott, why it worked is because people were losing money, right? Because they were actively boycotting. And when money is that that, that's the only way that actual change. You have to, you have to be willing to recognize that somebody is going to lose

money until the changes happen when there's an actual boycott's happening. So anyways, that's where things get tricky. I could talk about this for hours. My point is to your question, yes, this is the first step, but it has to go far beyond that. And that's why it's so important that people be committed to this as a lifelong practice, not as just something that you do when it's convenient or when you can fit it into your schedule, but that you recognize that even when you're doing this work, you're feeling the discomfort, it feels, when people are, face with the comfort, the thing you want to do is withdraw because it just feels so like overwhelming, but you have to push through that and recognize, right? This is not my quote. I don't even know

who said this, but I don't want to take credit for it. But the ability to learn about racism is a privilege itself because you're not experiencing it. You're learning about it. And that is a privilege. And so if you're taking this time and you're like, I don't know about this stuff, I need to learn, just recognize the privilege that already exists in your life because you can make that statement. And to the money point, my husband and I have been having the conversation about the fact that a certain percentage of our money that we have isn't something we've actually earned in the first place. So not even thinking of it as ours, which makes it a lot easier to, I even thought about that when I signed up for your seminar because I think two months ago I would have been like, oh, $150. That's like a lot of money to spend on this.

I tend to be very stingy with my money. But I'm like how what percentage of my money have I earned because of the privileges that I've had in my life? And what percentage of my money have I earned because of the work I've done? And I don't think that diminishes the work that I've done in any way. But it just acknowledges that a certain percentage of my money wasn't really mine to begin with. And it makes it easier to part with that money. I think that's such a great point, especially what you just said about that doesn't diminish the work that you've done. Right.

Because I think what happens when we start having these conversations is people hear this word privilege and they start to be like, but I worked really hard. no, no, no, everybody is agreeing with you, right? Like, yes, you have worked really hard for what you've done. Yes, you know, you've had a lot of struggle in your life. All of those things can be true. And also, you didn't have to struggle with certain things because of whiteness, right? And so you're 100% right. It does not diminish any of the work as you've done. And I think that's such an important point for people to internalize to make this conversation easier. And so thank you for bringing that up. It's so important. I love to bring things down to a super pragmatic level on this podcast.

So if somebody has the same experience that you essentially had, whether they're white or black, and they walk into a gym and it's all white people or they walk into their spin class, it's all white people. Is there a very first, like, should they talk to the gym owner? Is there something they should do there? You mean a person who's like black or a person of color? Maybe for either way. Either.

Like you were able to use your voice to sort of speak out about it, but a lot of people don't have that option and they're just a gym goer. Right. So I'm going to speak to it from both angles. As for people, you know, black people or other people of color that walk into those spaces and feel not even that necessarily unsafe, but you just feel like you don't necessarily belong or you don't feel good there. Two things. Number one, you know, if you like the space and you like the workout and you want to keep showing up, keep showing up and get comfortable there because we need people to show up that look different, right?

However, if you're feeling like you're not having good experience there, or if you're feeling like you're experiencing microaggressions and that space doesn't feel comfortable for you, I would not encourage you to continue showing up a place that doesn't feel good for you. But I would encourage you if you feel emotional capacity to either, you know, send an email if it feels easier for you or talk to someone in management at that gym about what you experience and bring it to their attention. But I always say if you have the emotional capacity because as a person of color as a black person,

these things happen a lot in life, right? And sometimes you don't have the emotional. You just like forget it. I don't have the emotional capacity to talk to people because I have been in the situation where I brought things to people's attention and the response has not been great, right? So then I was just more frustrated. And so it's always, I say if you're in a marginalized identity, do what feels good for you. There's no right or wrong.

And then for white people in spaces like that. I think my, you know, if you go to a gym and there's no one that, but the people that look like you and you recognize like something doesn't feel right about this, yeah, talk to the manager and not being like, hey, you don't have any people of color here, but to say like, hey, I notice there's not a lot of diversity in here. I know there's not a lot of people of color here. Why do you think that is? And just open up that conversation, right? Because there's so many, there's so many reasons that this could be the case. It could be the case because they don't, uh, they don't. it could be because like for me when I go into a space and it feels like there's no diversity. There's no inclusion. I say there's no diversity in the staff. There's no diversity of the people that like work there. And then I come in as a person of color. I'm like, well, I can understand why other people are a pillar aren't coming here because I come here. No one looks like me. Why would I want to keep coming here? So I think for people who are in gym spaces and they see that there's no diversity in the staff, there's no diversity in the people are coming. That's a

question to approach the owner with or this management staff with, with not a, accusatory, but like, hey, have you ever thought about this? Like, why do you think this is? And more importantly, if things are happening in that gym space, whether people of color or present or not, that exhibit racism or people, things are being said or language is being used, that's not appropriate, then yes, you should definitely call that to the attention of the people that are in charge. And this goes just beyond racism in the course that I do in diversity and inclusion. I talk a lot about how gym spaces and, you know, wellness professionals can be more inclusive. And so for gym spaces, is things like how having gender neutral bathrooms, right? Having a staff that is very representative of all the identities that you want showing up to the gym. So there's so many things that gyms should and can be doing to make people feel welcome in those spaces. But that's kind of like a whole other conversation. But absolutely bring it to the attention. And I think all of us, you know, very small things that we do can lead to big changes.

And it can be as simple as sending an email. I have a friend. I bring up the story a lot. I have a friend who was like going to her local coffee shop and they had single use stalls or single use bathrooms but it was labeled men and women. And she's like, why don't you have gender? Why don't just make them gender neutral because they're single use anyways. And so she just sent an email to the owner.

It was just that simple. And the email, the owner emailed back and it's like, I don't really understand. And my friend is white, by the way. And she's like, I don't understand. This makes no sense. And so she just gave him like, she did a little bit of work on her own. And she explained like what that is and sent him a couple. articles. And then two weeks later, he's like, all right, I read over the things you sent me.

He's like, I still don't really get it, but it's fine. It's not a hard change for me to make these gender neutral. And then two weeks later, he had changed it. And so again, it took a little bit of work, but it makes a huge difference in people who are trans. And so these are the things that we may think these are little actions that don't make a difference, but they do make a difference. I just want to end on this because there's been a lot of conversation, rightfully so, of the difficulties of being in a black body in the world today. But you shared a post on Instagram recently that was, sometimes I wonder how I got so lucky to be born so black and so woman and so magical.

And then I stopped questioning it. Sometimes it just is what it is. And I just thought that was so beautiful. And I would love to hear what inspired this. And in a time that's so mired in the negative, why you feel so lucky to be born, as you say, so black and so woman. Yeah, I'd love to end on this. No, this makes me really happy. I love being black. I love being a black woman, right? And yes, there's like so much that happens in the world that is like discouraging and that's frustrating. But I, I love being black. I have never wished I was anything else, right? I've always, always loved being black. I didn't talk about this a lot, but we didn't talk about this at all. But I went to a private school in the suburbs in Wisconsin. And, and, And I was the only, me and my brother and sister were the only, not only the only black kids,

we're the only people of color in the entire school, right? So I always felt othered for a really long time. And I was going to school with people who had never, like, didn't have any black friends. Like, I was it, right? And face, and when we're talking about, like, I faced racism in ways that we were kids. So they didn't know they were being racist. They'd say things like, oh, my dad says he doesn't like black people, but you're okay, right? Like, I heard those messages from a very young age.

but I just think blackness is so unique and so beautiful. And I think about the resilience of black people, right? Like I'm a black American. I'm a product of slavery or enslaved people. I don't like to use the word of slavery, enslaved Africans. That's how I got here. But I think about the resilience that black people have had throughout history in this country and just globally. And I just know that I have like the strength of my ancestors with me all the time.

And I just love blackness. And when I think about blackness, like, you know, we. We create culture, black culture is so beautiful, right? Like, we create music and we create so many things that globally people engage in. Like, I look at the TikTok era now and I'm like, yo, so many of like the TikTok dances that are going wild, they're like created by black people. We just have such a rich culture and a rich history. And I just love being black. And I don't care.

I mean, I care about the things that happen, but it doesn't matter how bad things get. I'm never going to, I'm never going to ever just wish I was anything different. I love being black. I think it's magical. I think black women are magical. I think black people are magical. I think we're resilient. And yeah, I just, I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I can't wait to have you back on when things, you have a little bit more time perhaps in your schedule and we can do your whole story. But thank you so much for taking the time today. Thank you so much, Liz. This is such a great trad. I really appreciate it. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. I am so excited.

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My next guest today is Ibrahim Basir, the founder of a dozen cousins, one of my favorite food brands. You can find a dozen cousins online at A Dozen Cousin. and on Instagram at a Dozen Cousins. All right, Ibrahim, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time to chat. Thank you very much for having me, man. I'm excited to be here. Can you just tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Yeah, so my name is Ibrahim Baccio, as you mentioned. I'm the founder and CEO of A Dozen Cousins. We're a natural food brand that makes convenient meals and side dishes that are inspired by traditional black and Latino dishes. And so our very first product is a line of ready to eat beans. They're all fully cooked in season, made with avocado oil. And like I said, just inspired by regional bean dishes. And they are so good.

I've gotten to try, I think, do you have three flavors? I've definitely tried three. I don't know if you have more. Yeah, we have three flavors. That's right. So you've tried the full line. I've tried the full line. Mexican pinto bean and then a Trinidadian chickbee curry.

And they're so good. It's actually a harder thing than you would think to get really strong, bold flavors in the bean category. So it's an interesting thing that I was like, oh, that wasn't missing. I didn't realize that was missing until I got to eat these. And now I'm like, oh, it was missing. Yeah, no, I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, the gap, and I won't go too far ahead, but the gap between like the quality of bean that you can cook at home or that you taste in a restaurant versus what has been available in supermarkets for so many years. It's a pretty big gap.

or at least we believe there was a pretty big gap. So that was our push was to try to create a bean that was second only to something you would make at home or buying a really good restaurant. And, you know, so far we've been really happy with the reception. Absolutely. So we'll get into how you started a dozen cousins and sort of the inception of that in a second. But first, I would love to just know how you're feeling at this moment and time and what feels really good about what's happening right now and what feels frustrating about it. Yeah, so, you know, obviously we're in the midst of just a really, you know, really emotional and charged time from a racial perspective.

And I assume that's, you know, that's what you're referring to, obviously over the last week or two. We've had several police incidences, you know, most recently, of course, the death of George Floyd and Minneapolis. And I'll say, first, just as a human and as a father and a person, I'm really sad, you know. Human life is very sacred. It's very delicate. It's not something that can ever be replaced or rewind. or brought back.

And so that's where I start, right? It's like, man, someone is no longer with us today. And from everything that we can see on the outside, there's no reason that that's the case, right? It seems like something that was unjust and very avoidable. And so that's really, you know, first and foremost, where my head is at, right? Sadness there and hope that that family received justice, you know. And I put that above everything else that I'll say afterwards, right?

You know, secondly, I would say as, you know, just a black man. and a professional and someone who's been through this a few times, there's something that's a little hopeful to me in that people seem to be responding to it very differently and in a different way than I've seen in the past, right? You know, you think back even to something that short is 12 or 18 months ago and the reception that someone like Colin Kaepernick got in the NFL or the reception that we've seen in previous cases, it feels in some ways like, you know, night and day reaction. And part of that, I'm sure is I have a bubble that I live in, but it's still. feels like a very different reaction that I've seen. So that gives me some hope, you know, even if it's, if it's relatively small, you know, the fact that people are responding differently makes me feel like, okay, maybe we'll see a bit more traction, a bit more progress made. So those are the first two, you know, thoughts that immediately come to mind for me.

Yeah, absolutely. It's just, it's so funny to think back on the Colin Kaepernick thing, especially when people are like, why don't people do more peaceful, quiet forms of protest? And it's like, well, Colin Kaepernick did that and everybody got so mad at him. for essentially the most peaceful type of protest one can do, you know? Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you know, I studied history as an undergrad, and so I am a big believer in this thing, like things don't happen in isolation, right? So, you know, even though we're living in a moment in time, there are 10, 15, 20 different cultural threads that are happening at the same time, right? Like you think about coronavirus, you think about unemployment, you think about the amount

of time that some people have to reflect and think and spend online, right? that's very different than even where they were 12 months ago, right, where maybe the Colin Kaepernick thing was just squeezed in between them going to work and taking their kids to soccer practice and they didn't have time to think about it or talk to anyone about it or have you, right? And so, you know, there's this interesting brew of variables right now that hopefully, like I said, will lead to just a different understanding and acceptance and hopefully progress against it.

So can you tell me a little bit about your journey to start a dozen cousins? Yeah, I'm happy to. So I always go back to the beginning. I grew up in Brooklyn in a really big family. So I have nine siblings, 11 nieces and nephews. And then when my daughter was born, she was a 12th cousin, which is where the brand gets its name from. And you know, always- Wait, I have to ask, have there been any new kids? Like what happens if a new cousin's added to the family? Yeah. So cousin 13- I've wondered this for a long time. Cousin 13 is already on the way. One of my sisters is actually pregnant as we speak. But we've

come to the family consensus that the dozen cousins will be locked and memorialized as they are, right? I'm sure we'll eventually get one day hopefully to two dozen cousins or three dozen cousins, right? We got a lot of young and fertile siblings still left, so I'm sure we'll beat that number, but we've agreed to hold it at a dozen. So yeah. But yeah, so jumping back into the story a little bit. So, you know, growing up for me, food was like this glue in my family, right? Like, you can imagine in a household with that many people, dinner was how we got together at the end of every day. It was like an affordable way to celebrate to like mark holidays and milestones and graduations. And so I always grew up with this really special connection to food beyond just

loving it, you know, from a taste and consumption perspective, like it had this cultural and familial value to me. And so I always knew in the back of my mind I wanted to do something. connected to food. I didn't really know what that would be. Fast forward many years, I got my MBA and started my career actually at General Mills, which is a really big, you know, food company, right? And during my time at General Mills, I kind of went on this personal journey from, you know, not really knowing much about health and wellness or GMOs or organic ingredients or anything like that. And over the course of three or four years, I just started getting exposed to more and more of those businesses and the brands and the ethos.

And kind of culminated with me actually working on a business called annies, which is a, you know, a classic organic business based in the Bay Area, led new product development for annies for a few years. And it was during that time that the idea for a dozen cousins really came about. And it was a result, honestly, in many ways, just of going back and forth between Brooklyn and Berkeley. You know, Berkeley, for those that don't know, is very much a progressive town, right? Like people are very forward leaning in terms of health and wellness and the environment and sustainability and kind of their relation to the world. And I kind of fell in love with those ethos.

But I would go back home to Brooklyn where I grew up in this like working class, black and Latino community. And the conversation around food, at least in my circle, was very different. You know, it was very much focused on taste and culture and joy and maybe less of like food as medicine. Right. And so there was just this conflict. there, right? At times, it felt like two totally different worlds, right? Where, like, the trends and the

foods that people in Berkeley were eating and talking about, my family could really care less about, right? The things that excited my family and my friends and got us excited about food and new restaurants and things wouldn't really be, like, past the sniff test in Berkeley, right? And so, I just kind of got interested with this idea of, like, man, is there a way to bring these two worlds together, right? Like, could you create a brand and a set of products that would appeal to this really kind of taste first culture forward community that I grew up in, but at the same time kind of leverage everything that I had learned about ingredient quality and sourcing and, you know, health and wellness, right? And so ultimately that's how a dozen cousins was born,

was really behind that mission. You know, I once created a brand that felt authentic and cultural, but still really wholesome and really good for you. And so, you know, beans was, it kind of, it's almost like it came to me in a dream, right? Like, Once that mission was clear, it was obvious to me that beans would be our first product. As you think about beans, they have this really special place in that they combine taste, health, and culture, I think, in a really unique way. Beans are high in protein, they're high in fiber, tons of vitamins and minerals, right, like really good for your body. And then at the same time, they taste great. And there's this almost emotional connection between black and Latino culture and beans, right?

whether you're talking about black eyed peas in the south or red beans in louisiana or pinto beans in mexico like you kind of go down the americas right like north america caribbean south america latin america everyone has these regional beans and recipes that they love and so it felt like a really natural choice for us and then the last thing i'll say is where you know where we pushed ourselves are just say okay these are some classic recipes they're timeless what can we do differently to make them even better right and so for us that started with avocado oil right it um We know that oil is super important in terms of bringing out the flavor of garlic and onions and spices. And so we just said, hey, if we have to use some oil to get to that really peak flavor,

what's the best one we can use, right? Avocata oil obviously is high in healthy fats, you know, relatively unprocessed in terms of how you get the oil compared to some other oils which have chemical breakdowns and different things like that. So, you know, I pause there for a second, but, you know, that's kind of our story in a nutshell. I love that. you've noted in past interviews that a lot of health brands aren't necessarily marketed for the black or brown consumer. You've now gotten your MBA. You are a successful food wellness brand owner. Do you have any insight on why that is?

Yeah, you know, first of all, start and I always, you know, always I try to be careful and saying, like, I don't actually think that there's like racism or malicious intent in that, right? The reality is when someone starts a company and starts a brand, really regardless of of what it is, it usually is that of this really personal passion and belief that they have, right? And so it's inevitable when you talk about small and emerging brands that their early consumers tend to really look like the people who started the company, right? So when you think about like the world's best mountain climbing brands, right? They were started by mountain climbers, the early customers are people who love climbing mountains,

right? And like over time, maybe they reach a more mainstream audience, but it does often start with, you know, early consumers kind of mirroring early founders, right? And so, you know, as we think about the food industry, like one of the big drivers, I believe of why the space has been less diverse from a consumer perspective is because the founders and the people running the companies have tended to be less diverse, right? So if you think about the people who start the company, the CEOs, the heads of marketing, the heads of supply chains, the heads of finance, right? There hasn't always been great diversity in those places. And so the brands have tended to reflect that. And again, I'm speaking just from

my opinion, right? That, you know, that's one driver. I think another driver, if we look at kind of the U.S. socioeconomically, right, like we can't, we can't be naive. If you're black and brown in the U.S., generally speaking, you tend to live in kind of a lower socioeconomic bracket. Maybe you tend to live in a more urban environment, right? You tend to eat foods that are maybe less, less expensive, more calorie dense, right? Like, there's a lot of things that drive the food choices that we make. And some of them are just very specifically tied to kind of the, you know, you know, U.S. socio-economic dynamic, you know what I mean? And so, but those things can be overcome. And that's kind of one of the things that's really exciting about a dozen cousins, right? We have a really

diverse consumer base. So some of our consumers are black and brown. Others maybe look more like you, right? And that's fine. We welcome that and embrace it. But we do think the variables are controllable, right? Like you can create products that appeal to different people. You can sell them in channels that those people shop at. You can work to get price points that are more approachable, right? Like there's ways to reverse engineer some of those obstacles if you're really mindful about it, which we've tried to be. So you said one of the problems is that the consumers tend to look like the founders. What advice would you have for young black entrepreneurs who wanted to get into the food and wellness space? Yeah. So first of all, it's a great question. That's another one of my just like pet thoughts, right? Because I believe it's, right? I grew up in Brooklyn. And so I don't actually know that the challenge is 100% the fact that there aren't black. and brown founders, I think sometimes the question is have they created large national successful

brands, right? Because like if I think about growing up in Brooklyn and Bedford-Stuyveson, like you can walk down Fulton Street or walk down Flatbush Avenue and you'll find people selling shay butter and incense and black seed oil and black soap and tons of vegan products, right? I think about some of my favorite restaurants growing up. There was a Rastafarian vegan restaurant in Flatbush that probably has been around for like over 20 years. You know what I mean? And so, it's not necessarily the case that we as kind of black and brown people haven't been launching these businesses. I don't know that we have always done so with the same amount of capital and exposure and distribution as some of those other brands, right? And so really I might even

amend my previous statement to say it's less about there being a lack of black, a lack of black and brown founders in a total sense and more in a sense of that have built really national scalable brands, you know? And so then if you think about it from that angle, the barriers are a little more obvious, right? It's like lack of capital, maybe less business education, access to more local markets, right? Maybe they're not getting into the Whole Foods and Kroger's and Walmarts of the world, right? And we can kind of go down the list from there, but I'll pause for a second. So if somebody came to you and they're 20 and they're black and they say, I have this idea for a business, would you have them go about it in a different way than you would give advice to a young

white entrepreneur in any way? You know, I actually, first of all, really am fortunate in that I get to speak to a lot of other founders, either that are kind of younger than me and just starting or, you know, younger in the journey than I am and just starting their business or people who are at a similar stage. And so, you know, honestly, the core advice that I give those folks is pretty similar regardless of their background, right? Which is, number one, do you have a real unmet need in the marketplace, right? Like, are you giving people something that they can't get elsewhere, right? And that's kind of the starting point, just a real consumer need. You know, from there, you move to like, have you created a product that solves that need at a price point that people can afford, right? Have you identified a really clear audience and consumer target? Are you selling the product in the places where those people shop? Are you promoting the product in a way which you're going to reach those consumers, right? And so a lot of that is just the core, I think, of creating a successful consumer product. And I'll say that advice is true, really regardless of a person's background, you know,

when I do speak to founders of color, black founders, Latino founders, Asian founders, right? Like some of the additional things that I'm layering on is just maybe institutional knowledge that they don't have, right, around like, hey, here's the way a particular retailer works. And here's how you should think about fundraising or, you know, here's how you should think about hiring and firing and team building, right? And again, not necessarily that those things wouldn't be helpful to other people, but, you know, the reality is if you are a minority founder, you're going to face certain obstacles that maybe your peers won't face, right? Some of that is just good old-fashioned bias and there's not a lot to be done. And some of it is more around like just helping people get through the network gap, help people get through some of the institutional knowledge that they may not have access to. You know, I try my best to just be a conduit for that information.

So and at the end of the day, I'm still figuring it all out myself, right? And so at the end, we're teaching each other often a lot of times. And is there anything that you would say to a white person who is like looking around and saying, And I wish there were more black-founded brands in wellness or in food, and I'd like to support that. Well, there are a lot of them, right? And so if the question really is, well, how do I find them, right? You know, I would challenge that person to say, okay, think about how do you learn about the brands that you like today, right? We'll just use an example, right?

A lot of people find out about new brands based on, like, bloggers and influences that they follow or websites that they frequent, right? And so my question to those people would be like, do you follow any black or brown influencers, right? Are there black or brown bloggers whose pages you read often? Are there media outlets and sources that cater towards those communities or that highlight those products, right? Like, of course, if you don't follow any of the people or information sources where you learn about those things, it can be really hard to find, right? I don't think about that really any different than someone who would say, like, you know, I can't find a really good Indian food. It's like, well, if you ask an Indian person in your city, I'm sure they can point you in the right direction. You know what I mean?

And so that would be my initial, you know, my initial thought. So your products incorporate sort of inspiration. They celebrate a number of different cultures. You have like your Mexican pinto beans. You have Cuban black beans. You have a Trinidadian chickpea curry. And there's been a lot of conversation in the food world recently about the line between celebrating and appreciating food from other cultures and appropriating it. And I'm just really curious how you navigate that on a personal level and then also from your brand's perspective.

Yeah. So, you know, I'm African-American kind of, I consider myself, you know, a black man and someone of African descent. And so, you know, for me, first and foremost, as we were identifying kind of the zone that we were going to play in with a dozen cousins, the thing that was really cool and interesting to me was the way that black and Latino cuisine kind of overlap and intertwine, right? So if you think about kind of the region from the southern U.S. down through the Caribbean and into Latin America, you know, historically there's been kind of, you know, three different, you know, macro forces combining to create that cuisine, right? You had the indigenous people, of course, who were living in those areas before, you know, anyone else arrived. You obviously had the food that was brought by, you know, European, you know, colonists and settlers. And then, of course, you had this huge influence of the cuisine of Africans that were brought, you know, originally to the Americas as slaves. But obviously, you know, over time, it became just a big part of the cuisine, right? And so, you know, for me, obviously, I don't necessarily have a personal heritage in all of the different recipes that we create.

But there is this really cool interconnectedness of like, you know, the way that African cuisine influences Cuban or Brazilian food, right? And the way that, you know, candidly there are people in the Caribbean who are both black and Latino, right? And so there's an overlap there if you think about people from Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic and kind of throughout Latin America. So, you know, for me, I do feel a really close connection to the foods that we make. And I do feel like there's this kind of shared heritage there. So that's one thing. You know, the second thing I'll say, you know, just in general as it relates to the question of appropriation to me is often, you know, just the thing of like, are you honoring the history? and the culture and the tradition of those foods, right?

And so we're really careful, for example, to try our best to stick to recipes kind of as they've been passed down, right, so that there's the, is this feeling of heritage there. We have, for example, a Mexican recipe developer who developed our Cuban blackbeams, right? And we work with a really diverse group of people to bring these products to market, right? You think about, you know, whether that's employees of our company or influencers that we partner with or bloggers that we share a product with, right? A lot of what we do is we want to create this feeling that our food is made by the community where those recipes come from and also that that community is benefiting from the success

of our company. And so, you know, I think a lot of times when it comes to the concept of appropriation, what can be uncomfortable for people is the feeling that someone is either, you know, profiting off of stereotypes or kind of watered down versions of a particular culture or that the people who who really developed and created those foods aren't necessarily able to benefit from them in the same way. So, you know, that to me is something that we really try to avoid. And overall, I'm really comfortable with what we've created in terms of celebrating culture and creating a really diverse group of people to profit and benefit from that.

There's a lot of talk about how food deserts disproportionately affect black communities. Is that something when you were working in places like big corporate places like General Mills or even places like Annie's that still have a lot of reach? Is that a conversation that's being had at a corporate level of trying to solve that type of thing or come up with solutions in any way? Yeah, you know, first of all, I'll start again by saying, like, I'm not a social scientist. The concept of food deserts and urban planning is not necessarily my area of expertise, right? Like, ultimately, I'm a food marketer and a brand builder, right? And so I want to caveat that at the outset.

You know, what I'll say is that it's an issue that that has very high awareness. I think a lot of people in some of the places that you're alluding to are aware. of it, they're thinking about solutions. You know, the challenges that the drivers of the problem are actually really complex, right? So again, if you just think about like inner city community in New York, right, what are some of the things that are driving the health of that community? You know, maybe one of it is access to fresh fruit and vegetables, right? But like another one might be lack of outdoor places to play, right? Another one might be, you know, low income and really really tight food budgets. Another one might be, you know, lack of knowledge around healthy eating

or calorie planning or the importance of fresh produce, right? Like there's, there's so many drivers that it's really hard to just, you know, single out one of them. You know, I've seen studies, for example, that point to the fact that even in so-called food deserts, most people are still doing the bulk of their shopping at supermarkets or at places that have fresh produce, right? And so even just within that one term, there's, you know, I think academic disagreement around, you know, what is the primary driver around health in some of some of these communities we're talking about. Can you talk to me about some of the social initiatives that a dozen cousins is involved in? How did those like how did the conversation around even doing that begin?

Yes, that's a great question. So, you know, kind of going back a little bit to what we talked about from the brand story perspective, you know, when I first started the brand, it was really laser focused on this idea of like, man, how can I get like black and brown people who look like me and grew up in places that I look like to eat natural and organic and healthy foods, right? And so we started developing the products. We started working through it. And like, one of the things that we ran up against was like, okay, well, if you want to use real garlic and real onions and avocado oil and non-GMO ingredients, right, like the price point is going to get to a place where, you know, not everyone will be able to afford it, right? And so at some

point, kind of along the product journey, I had to make a decision around, well, okay, do you focus on selling really affordable and accessible food right out the gate, or do you really focus on quality and premium, right? And so ultimately where I landed was, you know, there's a certain audience that we'll be able to reach if we keep our food standards high, which is what we ultimately chose to do, right, is to like use really great ingredients, focus on consumers that understood and we're seeking out health food products. And so that created kind of a little bit of a gap in the mission, right, which is like, okay, well, if you're creating this product and the people who you really want to buy it, maybe still can't afford it, or the people who you really want

to be living healthier, maybe still can't access it, what can you do, right? And so what we ultimately decided was that we'd have this kind of second stream almost, right, where, okay, our products are going to hit a certain part of the market, but we can also do a lot through partnering with nonprofits and just through kind of financial support. And so what we decided and identified was like, okay, the issue that we're really up against is socioeconomic health disparities, right? What are the different ways in which people's, you know, economic background, cultural background, kind of social norms are impacting their health? And so what we decide is that every year, we're going to give a grant to an organization that's fighting that challenge. And so last

year, for example, we made a donation to an organization called Lacosina Allegre or the Happy Kitchen, which is based in Texas. And kind of what they do, which I think is super unique, is they take a really cultural and community-focused approach to healthy eating, right? And so, for example, instead of just going into a community and saying like, hey, drink more water and eat kale, right? They focus on recipes that are culturally relevant, right? So instead of eating fried catfish, maybe you can eat baked catfish, or instead of, you know, making tacos with a lot of red meat, maybe we balance it out with poultry or vegetables, right? So like things like that, which are just easier for those communities to adapt because it's closer to kind of our norms and traditions, right?

Likewise, that program has a component where they focus on shopping on a budget, right? So, okay, what are some fruits and vegetables where the frozen version is just as good? Or in some cases, you know, has the same health level as fresh produce but costs much less, right? So that's another component of the program. And then the last thing, which I thought was super cool, is the instructors, right, they go in and teach these six-week health and nutrition classes. the instructors are former graduates of the program who come from the same community, right? And so it creates this feeling of like, you know, we're in this together.

The person who I'm looking at looks like me. They've had a similar experience to myself. I can relate to them. And so all in all, the program just has really great results in terms of retention and, you know, retention of habits, that is, right? So people kind of sticking with the things they learn because in part they feel like, okay, I did it alongside this other group of people who can hold me accountable. I learned from this person who looks like me and who I feel like

is this attainable model of success, right? And then in some cases, they come back and teach another generation, if you will. And so that reinforces the habits again, right? And so that's one example of a program that I just, I really loved from the moment that I found out about them. And it felt very much in line with the ethos of the brand. And so we're actually in the midst of identifying our partner for 2020.

We'll make a similar program. Last year, we were able to sponsor that course I just alluded to for 50 families. And so hopefully as the brand continues to grow, then we can continue to do more and more things in that vein. Hopefully that answers your question. Yeah, that's amazing. Just final question.

This is a podcast that's about diversity and accessibility in the wellness and food worlds. Is there anything else that you feel like is missing from that conversation? Man, it's a great question. Let me pause for a moment and think if that's okay. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so there's two things that come to my mind. And some of this is just, you know, thoughts that are on my heart or that they come up often when I have these types of conversations, right? Like, number one is that I'm an individual, right?

I'm speaking first and foremost for, like, Ibrahim Basir, and then secondly for my family and then maybe third for my community of Brooklyn and so on and so forth. And so I think a lot of times it happens in these conversations is that, like, one person's voice gets extrapolated as the voice for, like, black people, right? And the reality is, like, as you know, black people are a large and diverse and, you know, very, very just, we're a big group, right? Particularly if you think about black people beyond just even African Americans, right? You have Caribbean Americans. You have people from West Africa. You have people from all over, you know, different parts of Africa. So, like, I guess the first thing I'll just say is, like, I'm just speaking for myself and sharing my opinions.

And, you know, I hate for me to be a symbol or anything larger than that, right? Like take this as one data point as we try to like all circle around some of the topics that we've talked about, you know? You know, that would be the first thing. And then the second thing I would just say is like, you know, for so many people, you have to remember that food is not just about fueling our bodies. You know what I mean? There's people and, you know, I consider myself in this group where food is an expression of our culture. It's a way of passing history and heritage from one generation to the next. And so a lot of times I find when there's a really big disconnect in the conversations around food or even in the conversation we had about like appropriation, right?

Some of it is when you have one group of people who are thinking about food as this almost historical cultural artifact that's very personal and very significant to their family. And you have other people who are thinking about food as a commercial opportunity to make some money or a way to just like fuel their training or take care of their body. right. Like sometimes I think that's where the sparks can come. It's like you have to almost get back to the root of like what is food to you, what does it represent? And then you can kind of start to understand some of the different opinions and perspectives that people have around it. So those will be the two things I would add in closing. But, you know, I think we had a great conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for having me. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast.

This episode is sponsored by the Honeypot Company, a plant-powered, care company. In addition to healthy feminine washes, wipes, organic cotton tampons, and urban-fused menstrual pads, they also offer natural anti-itch cream, urban borg acid suppositories, and more. They truly have pretty much everything you need to keep your vagina healthy and happy. Also, their packaging is truly too cute. I've seen them in a ton of retail store, so definitely go to www.thehoneypot.co.com.com.com to find a retailer near you. Now, let's get back to the episode. My last guest today is Dr. Tosin-Odunzi, an obstetrics and gynecology physician. She's the founder of the mentorship squad, a community comprised of black and Latinx women

seeking mentorship along their journey to become U.S. physicians. You can find Dr. Odunzi on Instagram at Lifebytosin and online at Lifebytosin.com. All right, Dr. Odensi, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Thank you for having me, Liz. It's wonderful to be here. So I'd love to just open up by talking about how you're feeling right now. Obviously, this is a time of great change, hopefully positive change, lasting change in America, but I'd love to hear how you're feeling. Sure. Thank you for asking. Yesterday was the first day in a couple weeks that I actually wasn't in a fog. And after George Floyd was killed about a week and a half ago, it was just,

I think I had a delayed reaction where it was just unbelief, but then things kept happening. I was just like, this can't be real life. Like, this can't actually be happening again because the same thing happened while I was in residency back in 2016. And at that time, it wasn't, it didn't hit me as hard as this one did. And I don't exactly know what's different other than watching somebody. have a knee on someone's neck and know that the person is unconscious and just not move or flinch or do anything. So I'm thinking about my father. I'm thinking about my cousins, my husband, and there's just this level of underlying anxiety that I have about their safety and also for my safety and the rest of my family. So I think now I'm okay where my anxiety has gone from a seven or eight to maybe a three.

Yeah. You've talked. I want to talk a little bit. I want to start sort of at the beginning with your experience in the medical world in light of the fact that African Americans make up less than 5% of all physicians in the U.S. and then African American women make up less than 2% of all physicians in the U.S., which are just crazy statistics to me. So how did you know that you wanted to become a doctor and what was your experience like on your path to becoming an MD? So when I was three, I wanted to become a doctor and I don't think I ever changed my mind throughout my life. And my parents were very encouraging.

My dad, he's a physician, but he never pressured me or anything. But I never saw myself doing anything else other than being a professional food taster, which I could still do. I could still do that now. I'm open if anybody is hiring for that. But I always wanted to make a difference. And of course you can make a difference in different avenues, but there's just something so drawing to taking care of patients and that instant gratification as a surgeon of making somebody feel better.

And I eventually came upon the path of OBGYN because I felt I could do more impact work with women's health. I have a background in public health and also just taking care of women, being a woman myself and seeing them from their teenage years all the way until the end of life. So I think it's just so beautiful to engage in women on those different areas of their life. Did you face any challenges as you were sort of going down your own path to the place that you are in terms of the medical profession? For sure. And basically it starts off with, okay, I don't know if I actually deserve to be here. I don't know if I'm smart enough or good enough. And I struggled with that all the way from

this 10th grade calculus or 11th grade calculus until the end of residency. And it wasn't until I did my first shift as an attending physician, meaning you're done with all your residency training. I was like, I was adequately trained and I feel confident, but there's just that imposter syndrome that many of us feel throughout their training. And it takes a lot of encouragement and good mentors to help push one past that. And then in addition was some academic struggles that I had with passing the boards. And that can be very disheartening and kind of shoot down your confidence. So I think that contributed to the imposter syndrome as well. Is that part of what led you to start your own mentorship program? Can you tell us a little bit about your mentorship program

and why you started that? Sure. So I'm the founder of the mentorship squad. And I've been mentoring people since college and from college up until residency, I probably had two or three hundred mentees. And I went to a historically black medical school after being one of the only for high school and undergrad. And I felt like I didn't have to worry about race at all when I went to medical school. And that's where I made the bulk of my friends that I have till today. And then when I went to residency, there was another culture shock of I'm the only in my whole department. And it's unfortunate because I didn't feel like I could talk about race during residency. I just wanted to do my work and get that graduation certificate.

Yeah, I think during that training time, it was just a period of silence. And I did have some friends who were in other specialties that I could talk to. but it certainly felt pretty alone, like a lonely experience. So when did you start sort of the mentorship squad officially? And that is only for black and Latinx communities, right? So in March 2018, I just kept getting the same messages from Instagram where people were saying, can you be my mentor? And they were already in medical school or in residency.

And I just was disturbed that people got to this point without a mentor. And they were also sharing their struggles of being mistreated or microaggressions during their training that they were also too scared to talk about, either with their program directors or their chairs or even their co-resident. So I saw this problem and being the INFJ with the savior complex that I have, I thought, okay, I'm going to start one-on-one mentoring for black mentees. So it started off with everybody because, of course, I want to save the world. And then this was in March 2018. And then by the end of 2019, it got so overwhelming that I switched to recruiting help from other mentors

who were just as passionate as I am. And we officially launched the mentorship squad February 22nd. excuse me, February 20th, 2020. And we have over 610 mentees and 130-ish. I just checked this last night, mentors. So it's been great. And just having somebody in your corner makes such a huge difference. Somebody who's not judging you or putting any stereotypes on you, they're always going back you and that's what I want. Interesting. I was going to ask what what you like tell mentees that makes a difference, but it's just it's having their back and showing them that they can essentially do something that maybe society has told them that they can. Is that exactly? Exactly. And a lot of

students, their background may be a difficult background. They may come from a family where they're the only person to go to college. They may be the only person to be the only person to be. the doctor and the family. So having somebody who understands that path is so important because you can advise based on things that you did wrong. So for example, my history has been my greatest teacher. So when I'm imparting that knowledge, it's from a standpoint of, oh yeah, I tried that. It didn't work. So don't do that. And I think it's just so important to have somebody in your corner who looks like you, who you don't have to like explain anything. too. So beyond representation within the actual doctors and physicians in the world, there's such a

huge disparity in healthcare. So I want to start talking about that with COVID because obviously COVID is still very front and for. And I do believe, and I'm curious if you believe that COVID is part of what is sort of, it's connected to the awareness and the movement that's happening right now, the fact that the black people, the black population is 2.4 times more likely to die from COVID than the white population. So that's been sort of brewing. So I found this. I just want to, I thought that that was primarily due to underlying conditions. That was just sort of the thing I had told myself. It's just like, oh, there's different underlying conditions. I feel pretty ignorant for that viewpoint now because I was doing some research on it. And when adjusting for

region living in urban versus rural areas, household composition, and socioeconomic status and health, the likelihood of death from COVID-19 is still almost twice as high for black people's white people, according to a study in the UK. And then there's one paper that's not yet peer-reviewed, but it's so startling that I need to mention it that showed that black patients who actively showed symptoms were six times less likely to be treated or tested for COVID-19. And I would love your thoughts because I think I wasn't the only person being like, oh, there's just underlying conditions. I didn't realize it was a problem in the actual treatment. Sure. And even so this, this pandemic, I think it's just unearthed the tip of the iceberg of what black people have

been dealing with for 400 years. So I do want to start off by recognizing that what we discussed today, it's just the tip of the iceberg. And even a year-long course would not even be. able to delve into the depth and the breadth of this 400-year-old issue. So I do want to recognize that. And this pandemic, those statistics that you mentioned, they're all true and they're all disturbing. And I didn't know the same as you at the beginning of the pandemic. I thought, oh, yeah, it's just old people who are already sick.

And then as things were revealing themselves, I was thinking, wow, this is just the same thing that's been going on for hundreds of years. So I do want to touch on the racial injustices of today, but I also want to discuss the past. So racial discrimination has shaped so many U.S. institutions that it shouldn't actually be a surprise to us that the health care system is among them. And Evelyn Hammond, she is one of the historians of science at Harvard. And she said there has never been a period in American history where the health of blacks was equal to that of whites. And I think that's just so powerful because disparity has been built into the system. And with this pandemic, I think the feelings that I'm having is just recurrent trauma.

and we're experiencing collective trauma. And I can't necessarily speak for everybody, but it's just so visible now with social media and just discussing with colleagues that there's just a different way of treating Black patients, and it has nothing to do with underlying conditions. So I think that's the realization that people are getting and why people's eyes are being open now.

Hmm. Do you think that that also accounts for like another statistic I found that was that for breast cancer, while the incident rate was a hundred thousand per 100,000 was lower for African American women than for white women, the death rate was significantly higher for African American women than white women. Is that because of how physicians are treating them? Maybe not treating them, but delay in care or delay in treatment. So they're not. so many layers and factors into why somebody wouldn't get care, one of the common issues in the black community has to do with mistrust of physicians. And as you mentioned, two percent of black physicians are black women and five percent are black period. And there are several

studies to show that when black patients are treated by black physicians, they receive better care. So we can delve into that as well. I do want to lay the groundwork of the history of talking about black women and then black men and how history has shown this pattern of mistreatment and inadequate care. And I'm an OBGYN and early on in my career, I learned that some of the very foundations and treatments within this specialty were built on experimenting on slaves. And that shocked me. There's a man named James Marion Sims, and if you're not aware, he created the speculum, and he developed other tools and surgical techniques that relate to women's reproductive health. But his research was conducted on enslaved black women without

anesthesia, without informed consent, and he caused suffering by operating under the racist notion that black people did not feel pain. And I would like to say that that today people don't believe that however they do and there was a study that came out earlier this year and the results showed that half of white medical trainees believe such myths as black people have thicker skin or less sensitive nerve endings than white people so it's false notions professionals believe that medical students medical trainees yes wow and this is on the aAMC website And it's false notions like this that are very shocking to me. And these hidden biases, they fuel inadequate treatment of not only minority pain, but other symptoms, including somebody coming to the ER with full blown COVID symptoms and being turned away and not being tested.

So it's not just something that happened a long time ago. These are results that are coming out even in 2020. So how do you think you've been through medical school, you've been through all of those learnings, how do you think you eliminate those biases amongst actual physicians? That is a huge question and a huge undertaking. Now, on an individual level, yes, I can be that voice of, no, that's not true about this certain population. And it's not just advocating for the black community.

It's advocating for the Latinx community, other minorities as well. When I hear stereotypes or hear judgments or things that aren't true, just being able to speak up. However, on the flip of that coin, because black physicians are such a small representation of the population, there could be ramifications and repercussions for speaking out, especially if you are in medical training. So there is that flip coin of you speak out, but other physicians or superiors may make your life not very nice. Other things that people can do collectively if there is a diversity committee is to have implicit bias training, meaning you actually measure the type of bias that people have and you call it out as what it is. and reprogramming people to get rid of those false notions. And then also recommending that hospitals do more community engagement,

instead of coming up with ideas within a possibly homogeneous hospital and not taking to account other things that may cause patients to not seek out care and have these worst outcomes. So definitely involving the community, community leaders is very important. And finally, which is a goal for myself and something I'm very passionate about and gets me up in the morning is that we need more black physicians. And period, because you said the statistics and how do we provide adequate mentoring so that all students are on the same level playing field. There are black students who don't have adequate financial resources. they weren't able to go to a private school with tutors.

Again, they may be the only person that went to college or the only physician in their family. So how do we support those students when they're struggling academically, struggling with resources? So those are the three calls to actions that I would have. Is there any call to action you would specifically have to a normal listener of this podcast who's maybe not involved in the healthcare community? here's these statistics and it's like, this is horrible. What can I do? I think just listening to your heart is number one. And then also listening to the people that you're trying to support. So there are many resources online. And I often feel that as minorities,

we are pointed to or looked at to make statements on behalf of large, organizations, and that's not necessarily our duty. We don't need to draft emails to the employees. So if you have not received a statement from your organization, that's a way to press that issue and see what your company stands for and see if you want to align with that company. The second thing in terms of listening to your coworkers would be to allow them to grieve. Some people don't want to talk about it. Some people do want to talk about it. And then not centering yourself in the issue.

Take yourself out of the equation because it's not about you. It's about the population that you're trying to support. And that's the thing about an ally. You can't call yourself an ally. An ally is a term that the group that you're trying to support calls you. So you have to listen to the black population and these marginalized populations. And that means not inserting yourself, not talking about experiences that you have had that have made you uncomfortable. or made you guilty, that's not what this is about. This is about escalating and being able to hold up a microphone to black voices during this time. And if that's something that's uncomfortable for you, there's other ways asking your black colleagues how they feel right now and giving them the grace to grieve this process. And then the difficult conversations with family members and friends who may not necessarily believe what you believe. I think that that's how

we make change. And beyond being an advocate for health care and sort of reform in the health care system, you're also a big advocate for wellness. And I would love to hear about your relationship with the wellness world in general. Sure. Yeah. So of course being in training for about 15 years can kind of get to you. And this is a common theme amongst physicians, not just in terms of race, but physician burnout is something real. And I did a lecture in my last year of residency on physician burnout. And there's just this notion that physicians aren't human and we should leave our personal things at the door. So whether it's a death in the family or an illness, there's still this feeling of guilt when you behave like a human, when you show emotion. And I just got sick of it.

I got sick of hiding that. And I started saying no to things, which is a full sentence. I started creating boundaries in my life. And even as I was looking for a job after residency, so many jobs came through job opportunities and if it didn't fit within what I wanted for my life, which is to regain control over my time and my energy, I just, I deleted it and I wasn't interested because we only have this one life and we have to take control over the things that we value and prioritize those things. So in terms of wellness, I did start a four-week wellness program. It's open to anybody and it came out of me wanting accountability with other women and I thought okay let me turn this into a thing and just recruit women who want to do better it's not I'm not a personal trainer

that's not my expertise but just making better decisions every day and I think that's what makes a transformation not starving yourself for a month so that you can fit into a dress for a wedding I think it's those incremental changes and then also working on mindset shifts. So we have daily positive affirmations within the group me of women. We try and drink water every day. We also try and replace the meal with a salad soup or a smoothie and share different recipes. And then I really want women to engage with physical exercise in any capacity. So it could be dancing and something that

people see on my pages that I dance a lot even though my movements are a little awkward. I just want people to move. If it's kickboxing, if it's swimming, I don't care what it is. I just want people to get up and move and then they'll see results in terms of their energy level, their productivity, their stress level decreases. And one of the issues with chronic stress is that it affects your heart. So I want to reduce those long-term effects. I want to reduce the risk of diabetes in that group of people. And even though it's a small number, I think it's been very valuable.

Is there anything else that you feel like it's important to spotlight about the problems in the health care system or the problems in the treatment in the medical world that people might not know about? The only thing that I wanted to highlight is the importance of having minority physicians. There was a study in December 2019 in the American Economic Review, and researchers wanted to find out the effect of physician work for diversity and the demand for preventative care among black men. So there were a thousand men, approximately a thousand men, in Oakland, California. they were randomized to black primary care physicians or non-black primary care physicians.

And there was actually a significant result where black patients who saw black doctors received 34% more preventative services. And one of the reasons for these findings is increased trust and communication. And I don't think I can emphasize that enough because you're meeting on the same level, pretty much you're not coming with any misconceptions or preconceptions of the patient and you're talking to the patient so myself as a black woman if i have a a black patient i see them as my sister i see them as somebody who deserves full treatment and full care and i think this is huge and again with the implicit bias training i think we can decrease the morbidity and mortality not only in preventative medicine, but things like obstetrical or postpartum, morbidity, and mortality.

So those are the areas that I do want to emphasize today. Is there anything that we can do to help encourage, I know you're doing this great mentorship work, but if I wanted to encourage more black people becoming physicians, is it like helpful if I see a black physician myself and support them with my money and my insurance money, or is there anything I can do in that realm? Money is good. I think money does have the power to help students, for example, scholarships, financial burdens. That's probably in the top three obstacles for students trying to get to medical school and beyond. And there's certainly a student loan crisis. So I think there is a

place for financial support and finding organizations that have already created this network of physicians as well as resources for students who are trying to make it and making donations to those organizations is certainly helpful. The second thing would be all of these issues they start in childhood. So if there's a way for you to give back to the community in the earlier ages and showcasing minority students that this is what you can become. This is the potential and not limiting students, especially teachers. They have so much influence and power in students' lives that, and they spend so much time with students. I think that is definitely a big area.

And buffering up and beefing up the education system is also an area that people can help with. Now, specific things other than money, it's so hard because there are so many layers to this issue. But if you're a white person who sees a black child who's struggling and doesn't have a mentor, why not take them under your wing? I don't see an issue with that. And I think just having somebody who's going to root for them is important. So those are little things that can be done. I don't actually have a big answer. And I think this is something that our community and other communities can discuss in the future because I don't have a clear answer.

There's so many layers. But I do think those little things, like even as you said, the teacher thing, I was like, even if you're not a teacher, I bet you could talk to your child's teacher in the classroom. I think that's why the increasing awareness is so important is because the more that people, know the more everybody can advocate instead of just putting the burden of advocacy on a few people. Right. And also talking to your children as well because these patterns of racial bias and what we're seeing now with police brutality, they start in children.

So whatever you're teaching your kids, they're like sponges, so they're going to pick that up. So teach them about all these uncomfortable issues. Black parents are sitting down with their children and telling them the truth of how to be careful as they are navigating the world. So I think alternatively, white parents can have the same discussions in terms of how to treat black people. As a final question, you have done such a good job of incorporating all of those different wellness techniques and really bringing wellness into your life. Is there a reason that you feel like you were so receptive to that?

What was sort of like, is there something that we could do to make wellness more accessible and more prevalent for everybody? So one resource that I found was, it's called therapy for black girls. And they dispel this myth of black people don't have mental health issues. or if black people have mental health issues, it's seen as weakness. Because I think there's this notion that black people are so strong. And I mean, we've had to be for 400 years, but there comes a point where you just need to ask for help. And I'm very much a proponent of getting help in that fashion, finding a therapist,

because there are these deep issues that we just have to sort through that we haven't been able to maybe talk to with our colleagues and friends. and your black friends and colleagues that are dealing with it, they may not be able to take on what you're dealing with. So finding a professional that you can talk to, I would love to see the stigma disappear just because the benefit that I've seen in colleagues in being able to walk through these issues. Other resources that I can think of our books such as Brene Brown, She's an amazing author and just being able to process that I deserve to be here.

I have a voice. I'm just as smart as the next person and just saying those things over and over again. They really renew the mind and I call it reverse brainwashing, which is awesome. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat today. I am so impressed by all of the work that you're doing in the community. Thank you so much for having me, Liz. I hope you guys love this episode and I really appreciate you coming along on this journey,

doing this work with me, being willing to have these conversations, even if they're uncomfortable, even if they're difficult. I think that these are such important conversations to be having. They're foundational to wellness. And I can't wait to hear what you learned and to continue to have them with you. So please screenshot this. I'd love to hear from you on all episodes, but really especially this one. So screenshot, tag me.

I'm at Liz Moody. And tag whomever I was interviewing whose words really. spoke to you, whether that's Chrissy King. She is at I am Chrissy King, C-H-R-I-S-S-Y, Chrissy with a CH. And then there's Ibrahim Basir. That's at a dozen cousins. And of course, there's Dr. Tosin-O-Dadzzi. She's at Life by Tosin. We would all love to hear from you. We would love to continue the conversation. All right. I hope you have a beautiful day. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually take the steps to make eating healthier

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