The Liz Moody Podcast - Jen Gotch On Cultivating Optimism, Using Anxiety As A Superpower, and Dealing with Acne & Aging With Grace

Episode Date: April 1, 2020

This episode features the amazing Jen Gotch, and I think it’s actually the perfect episode for this strange time. Jen is the Chief Creative Officer and co-founder of Ban.Do, and the author of the new memoir The Upside of Being Down. On this episode, we talk about: Her mental health journey, including the various tools that have actually helped with her depression & anxiety How she created a workplace where people can cry How people can approach mental health struggles in a workplace Jen’s divorce plus dating in your 40s How to make good girlfriends as an adult Her unique approach to networking and how it’s benefitted her in her career How she cultivates her optimistic perspective and how other people can too Her relationship to her looks, including aging and acne, and how she finds confidence through it all (including her thoughts on Botox and fillers) You can find Jen on Instagram @jengotch, and I’m of course @lizmoody. Screenshot and tag us both with your thoughts, feelings, and reactions to this episode! Enjoy! PS: Healthier Together is officially a number one best-seller! You can get your copy on Amazon or at lizmoody.com/cookbook. Please keep sending me your creations on Instagram—they make me so happy! This episode is sponsored by Simple Mills, a company whose grain-free products I’m obsessed with. In this episode, I talk about the baking mixes specifically (the brownie mix, vanilla cake mix, and pizza crust!), which you can order on Amazon and find in most grocery stores. This episode is sponsored by Pukka, one of my favorite tea brands. They make incredible herbal teas with 100% organic ingredients, and they’re also certified Fair for Life. Beyond that, the Pukka bags are fully plastic free, and stitched together with 100% organic, non-GMO cotton. My favorite blends are Relax, After Dinner, and Tulsi Clarity, and Zack loves the Revitalize blend. You can find out more about Pukka at pukkaherbs.us. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the healthier together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I live in Brooklyn, where I am currently going on almost three weeks of self-quarantine. We only leave our apartment for shopping trips, and we do those as infrequently as possible. And while I feel lucky for so many things that I have a partner to quarantine with and a safe space to do it in and a really cute cat to snuggle up with when I'm feeling anxious at all, it's definitely a trying time to say the least. My mental health is super up and down. I'll have these days where I feel really great, really productive, a ton of energy. I do these like 3 p.m. five minute dance parties on Instagram and I'm like, yes, ready to go, ready to dance. And I do those every day. You should come join if you have not joined that yet. But I have other days where I feel like I can barely get off the couch.

I scroll through way too much social media. I read way too much news. And those are harder for sure. But I do believe that I'm becoming more resilient through all of this. All of the practices that I began to do to shore up my mental health earlier are coming into play now, which is one of the many reasons that I'm really excited to share this week's episode. I taped it pre-quarantine on a work trip to L.A., which almost feels crazy now that I, like, casually flew down there in a plane, and I stayed with friends, and I rode Uber's around, and I went to these restaurants that were filled with people. Yeah, it's crazy how fast everything changes. But this episode is with the amazing Jen Gatch.

And I actually think that it is the perfect episode for this very strange time that we are all in. Jen has been open about her mental health for years. She shared about her anxiety and depression and bipolar disorder. And we talk a ton in this episode about the various tools that have made a huge difference in how she feels day to day, all of which I think will be incredibly useful right now. She's also one of the most positive people that I have ever, ever met. And she shares how she cultivates that, like, it's like almost a relentless optimism. And she's cultivated that even in the worst moments in her life, in her divorce,

or when things with her business have struggled and times that she's had really hard mental health struggles. And I think that her tips for how you can actually do that super pragmatically, are things that definitely apply to the time that we're living in right now. She's a very successful businesswoman. She's the co-founder and chief creative officer of Bando. And we've talked, we also talked about how she's created a workplace where people can cry. They have a crying room at the office, which I absolutely love. The offices are phenomenal. They're like the coolest offices I've ever been in in my life. They have weighted blankets by the entrance where people can go and like lay under the weighted blankets and everything is bright and colorful and fun and pretty. But we talk a lot about how

she's made a workspace that's really conducive to people being open about their mental health and how other people in other work spaces can navigate how tricky that is with mental health. I know when I had my full-time job, I had, I struggled with how much I could talk about my anxiety because I didn't want to be perceived as like a weaker team member or somebody who wouldn't be trusted in certain circumstances because I had anxiety. So I was very interested in Jen's take on that. And I thought she had a lot of really good points to make. it's all stuff. Everything in the episode is stuff that definitely applies right now, but it's also just like really fun and girly and distracting conversation, like going to a restaurant with a really smart, interesting friend, which I think we all need right now because we're not getting as much of that in real life. We talk about Jen's fascinating perspective on aging. She actually made me more excited about aging than any person I have ever talked to in my life. We talk about dating in your 40s. And of course, because it's me, we had to get into some celeb guys.

like Jen's double date with Jennifer Aniston or the fact that many, many of her best friends are like red carpet regulars, people you would see in people or us weekly. We also get into friendships and how exactly Jen is curated this amazing group of girlfriends as an adult. I think that it can be really hard to make good friends as an adult who you feel are representative of who you are as a person in this moment. And Jen has done a great job of that she slid into Kelly Oxford's DMs, like on Instagram, and then that ended up being one of her best friends. We talk about all of her weird techniques and tricks and tips. I hope you love this conversation, and it offers a mix of real actionable shifts and thought and practical things you can

do for your anxiety or for your mental health in general, but I also just hope that it offers fun and thoughtful and interesting company in a time that we all really, really need it. You can find Jen's brand new book, the upside of being down at any major bookseller, although this is a really great time to order online from a local shop because they're definitely struggling right now. So definitely look for a shop near you and try to order it from there. You can also find Jen on Instagram at Jen Gotch, Jen with 1N-J-E-N-G-O-T-C-H. And of course, I'm Liz Moody.

I'm at Liz Moody on Instagram. Definitely screenshot as you're listening and tag us with any thoughts or feelings or reactions that you have. I've really been leaning into my little family on social more than ever. And it's been such an immense joy in my life, those 3 p.m. dance parties. We've been sharing lots of funny videos and just talking to people and doing lives and connecting with people. And I've also been trying to share as much useful content as I possibly can, like pantry-friendly recipes and my favorite free workouts and just stuff to make people feel good

and get through this time. So definitely check that out if you are bored or hungry or just want a friend right now. I am 100% here for you on all of the different levels. All right, I hope you are staying safe and sane. And I hope that you love this episode with the amazing Jen gotch. All right, Jen, thank you so much for having me to your office. Of course. I actually just finished your book in the car on the way over here. Is that were you reading as you were driving? No, I was because I don't think that's legal. No, I don't drive in L.A. Driving in L.A. like makes me very nervous. I'm not from here.

I live in Brooklyn. Oh, I was born in Brooklyn. Oh, really? Yeah. I knew your dad's like a New Yorkie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if you've ever heard him talk, it is hard to deny his roots. Oh, wait.

So are you just out here? Yeah, just out here for work for doing podcast interviews and stuff. Oh, that's amazing. So I just like over around and work in the cars. So smart. I'm late for everything because I don't realize it takes two and a half hours to get anywhere. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You were on time here. I was. I left much time to do it. That's the only way to do it. So I want to talk, we're going to get into like your whole history. Your book is phenomenal, by the way. Thank you. I, everybody who listens this podcast knows that I struggle with anxiety quite a bit. And I love how much you put out there. And I also really love, I think a lot of people don't talk about anxiety in the workplace that much. And I think that's really interesting. So we're going to get into all of that. But you've been sharing on your Instagram sort of, what the process of writing the book has done to you. So I love to start there. You said it like broke you open and helped you, forced you, not even helped you, like forced you to confront all of those things. Yeah. What is your mental health right at this moment?

I feel great right at this moment. Yeah. I mean, the other thing that I talked about recently on Instagram is I had, I realized that I was like still struggling with more depression than I actually thought. because I have bipolar and I have bipolar too, which is like much more pronounced depression, but I had gone back on a mood stabilizer and not an antidepressant and I felt fine. And then I looked like back on the last few months and I was like, I don't think this is how I should feel.

Like it just, you know, sometimes there's a lot of subtlety to depression. So I, so about a month ago, I went, I called my doctor and I was like, we got to just go back on the antidepressant. And I've been like, I have a relationship with him and I've been in this world of trying to figure it out for decades. So he was like, okay, because I used to be on one. And like within days, I felt better. So I feel really good. Plus, we were talking about the cleanse I was just on.

I feel like brain gut stuff is really, you know, so much of my physical and emotional health is based on what I put in my body. and I was a little off the rails over. Once it gets cold, it's actually just like, once it gets cold and daylight savings, it's, I'm done. Like,

I just like need pasta. I just need like comfort food. Yeah. I don't like feeling cold. And then, and then you roll into the holidays. And then I just, I could tell everything was contributing.

So what was the client? Can you talk a little bit about the cleanser doing? I'm really interested in people who like mix. the medications, but then also, you know, taking control in more holistic ways? Yeah. Well, I mean, you've read the book, so you may have gathered that, like, personal growth and betterment is, like, just a passion of mine since I was a kid. So I'm always looking for ways to feel my best.

Plus, with the book coming out, I, like, my one job during this time is to feel at my best. And I know there's a lot of things I can do to control that. So the cleanse, I hope I don't do a disservice by explaining it wrong, but I think I get it. It's called Clean 7. I cannot remember the name of the doctor who created it, but I've listened to him on a couple podcasts and he's incredibly smart. But I was, you know, it's one of those like shake, some actual food, a lot of tea. And it's based on like Ayurvedic properties.

anti it's like the the goal is like anti-inflammatory it's not like a I'm trying to lose weight which I don't believe in just in general like I feel like the goal should just be I want to feel better and then you see what happens from there and intermittent fasting so it's like all of those things blended and my friend was like going this cleanse with me and I was like no like absolutely not I don't do cleanses you're like no come on just look at it and I look at it and I look looked at it and like they sort of break out graphics of what each day looks like. And there was like just at lunchtime or a snack time, there was just a drawing of celery. And I was like, I'm not doing it. It was just a simple way for them to say snack. Like you actually get to eat a lot more than

that. And she was like, I really think you should do it. And I'm, we're both very stubborn. And I went out of town and I came back and she had sent it to me. And she's also one of those friends. that like inadvertently has directed me to some of the most impactful things in my life. So I was like, why am I resisting this? I also tend to resist things that are probably gonna be the best thing for me. And so I did it. Also a week is like incredibly doable, especially when you can eat.

And I felt great day one. And also like you're cutting out coffee, which was really hard for me. But I did it, sugar, all the usual stuff, you know, everything that we know is. Do you, you drink coffee? I did. So I'm curious because I gave, I had to give up caffeine because I had to give up caffeine because I stoked panic attacks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I'm always curious how people who have anxiety manage having caffeine. Yeah. I, um, well, listen, I've, I've done a lot of work to quell the, um, the emotional and like ego-driven part of anxiety. the physical stuff, caffeine is a huge trigger for me, but I have to like drink so much for that to be an issue or like, you know, every once in a while, well, if you're not drinking coffee,

but maybe if you did at some point, it's like you're like even out of town and you go to a coffee shop that you've never been to and you get an espresso drink and you don't realize that they serve the strongest. And then it's like, I'll start with like chest tightening heart palpitations. So but but normally like having a cup of coffee or even like two during the day like caffeine just in general doesn't have that effect on me. So what is your sort of relationship with food? Are you able? Is food something that is part of your mental health toolkit or I know you like still eat pizza and pasta?

Totally. So how do you how do you view food in your life? Well like I definitely am an emotional eater even though like I understand. understand that that's not always healthy. I'm like I've worked to kind of create a balance, but I'm definitely not the type of person that like can maintain any specific, especially like a strict regimen. So I try this, this was interesting for me because normally my cycles of like eating well and then sort of peaking and then just going into the depths of like how much garbage can I get into my body every day is usually like a three-year cycle. And I don't,

I don't know why. But it's like, it's just like something will happen to trigger me to get off of the wagon. I don't know. To like stop, to stop eating right. And then it's just a slow downward spiral. And then once I'm at the bottom of that, it's like I kind of am doing like a shame, punish myself and doing that by putting more junk and, like, drinking more. And so I kind of, in around November, started to feel that happening. I mean, the book was a huge contributor to that just because I was alone. I was surrounded by fast food restaurants. I wanted to just be soothed sometimes.

And so it just was, I could feel it happening. And so I was like, I wonder if I can, like, shorten this whole thing and not go down where I'm going to go and just like turn it. And so because knowing like what I said, like I've literally been given the responsibility to be healthy across the board for what's about to come. And so I was like, I mean, this is a responsibility not just for me, but for everybody. So it was like, so I just started like eliminating stuff like in December knowing that. If I could just like reset, I would never be able to maintain that.

I mean, I'm not going to, like, not ever eat cheese or have cake or pizza. It's, like, silly. But I feel like I have to kind of go to one extreme or the other in order to find, like, a middle ground. And for you is food, like, largely about your mental health or do you think about how your body looks? Yeah, all of it. I mean, I'm 48. So it's like the, I mean, supermodels were, like, really kind of invented when I was at a, very impressionable age. So, like, my relationship to my body is not incredibly healthy.

Like, I've never, I, not so far as, like, to have an eating disorder or, but I think I just have, like, a little bit of body dysmorphia. So that relationship, although as I've gotten older, and like I said, when I really shifted the focus to, like, don't do anything. this isn't me telling everyone what to do. This is what I told myself. Like, stop focusing on like that because on like, what will this do to my body? Like, will it make my body better? Will I fit into these pants? Like, when I stopped using that as the motivator, it's like I end up in a body that is not perfect. I don't even know what that is. But, you know, I mean, I can still see things that I wish were different. But I feel so. good, it like doesn't matter. And I don't know if I said it in the book, but I've said it before.

It's like I kind of, when I'm feeling that good based on what I'm doing for myself, whether it's exercising or how I'm eating, it's like I don't need a mirror. Like I, you know, it's like, I just feel great. I don't need to like see necessarily how that's reflected. So I can get there too. And I love that feeling. But then I feel like I'll be confront. fronted, like, I get very comparison-y. And I'm curious with you, you're friends with people whose job it is to look a certain way because they're, like, on television or something like that. And I feel like if I was friends to somebody who's literally making that their job,

it would make me spiral comparatively. I feel like, I think if someone was, like, super obsessed with that, and that was front and center for them all the time. I wouldn't be friends with them. Like my friends that where that is part of their job are very similar to me in that we sort of run the gamut. Like they're just, it's not like, I have to do this. I have to eat this. I'm like so like body obsessed.

It's sort of like I think I really gravitate to people that have a similar mindset of me, which is like this is real life. And like sometimes, I mean, most people fluctuate their weight and their body. and it's normal and like there are seasons in life. There are seasons, there are actual seasons. And they fluctuate, I think, in how they feel about their body. And I think that's fine too. Like it's, I think sometimes I also beat myself up too much for the times that I'm like not so stoked on my body.

Yeah. And it's like I can go through cycles of both. Totally. You know, there's like a, there's a quicker cure, which is like self-love and acceptance, which is like obviously what. quick. You know what? I think the more I learn about like these sort of like fundamental principles that like we all talk about so much and like how we can chip away at it year after year. Like I also think there is a perspective that can shift at any time. It's like you have to find the sentence that resonates with you that like shifts it to say I'm going to take this

approach. Like I think a lot of times it's like, well, you should just accept or like you know, there's a lot of sort of like clamoring for that, but it's like, what does that really mean? And it, in the end, it is just a choice. Like, you choose that. So like, I've, I've been trying to work to like, I mean, listen, no one dives deeper than me when it comes to like really figuring out and getting to the bottom and unpacking and like then looking at the science. But on the flip side, like, there are these like choices that you could make that where you're really making a promise to a lot. line with that. And like, I don't know. It's like, it's so simple that it's too simple, you know, like I feel the same way about like just happiness in general. It's like, I mean, there's going to be

something every, I've already had two things that could have made me really unhappy today. But I was just like, my choice is always going to be, I'm like, I'm just not going to do that. Like, it's the simple choice of like, am I, is this going to make me unhappy or is this going to to make me happy. Like obviously like a huge drama. We have no choice. It's human. But little things. Right. You know. I always feel like that when I see people with road rage and I'm just like, this isn't making your life better to feel this way. It's interesting you talk about in the book how you are sort of a perennial optimist and how that served your life. And there's a really interesting study that I don't know if you're familiar with. It's about how CEOs tend to be optimist because

you need to have such, like, almost delusional level of optimism to start a company. Yeah. And I'm curious for people who aren't naturally optimist, if there's anything that you could, like, say to help them shift their perspective. I mean, listen, it goes along with what I was just saying. Like, my switch from pessimism to optimism, which is also something I talk about in the book, was, like, literally like, I'm just not going to make that choice. anymore. And I feel like going against optimism, being a pessimist or however you want to talk

about it is like you're really just hurting yourself. Like it's just another way for you to stop your own success, growth, progress, you know, like you're, it's something where it's like you put it outside of you and all of these things are happening to you and, you know, the world. And but it's, it's again, it's just a shift in perspective. Like it doesn't, you don't have to view it that way. And what I have found from, and I made that switch like, you know, I was still a teenager. It just, it just makes life more pleasant. Like it, you know, and I say like I'm a realistic optimist. So it's like if something is awful or something truly bad has happened, I'm not like, let's just pick her, you know, I mean, but I'm not annoying everything around. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I do.

because I do tend to, at least, you know, to me, like, problems are an opportunity to problem solve and I know I'm going to learn something. And so I just think it's just such a healthy approach and it ties so much into resilience. And like, you need that to succeed. If you're not resilient, like, you're probably not going to get wherever it is you want to go. And I think optimism is such a huge part of that. So do you, is that actually like this morning pragmatically when those negative things happened? Did you have like a self-talk of exactly that? Were you tell yourself of that? Yeah. Well, I think that, okay, so the major thing that happened to me this morning was I got stood up by my acupuncturist, which is like the most L.A. thing,

probably anyone could ever say. But it's the second week in a row. And I've been going to him for years and it's and that's never happened like well and it's also like you're trying to make time for to take care of yourself yeah and so when i went last week and i you know it's like get up super early whatever drive there i mean i i went last week and i was like huh i don't think he's coming and he didn't and so i just can't it's not too far from here i live far from here but it's not too far from here. So I was like, okay, well, I just go to work. And then I pulled in like 30 minutes early today and I'm like, I just have this sense. He's not going today. And like, so I think like what went through my head as it became 755, 8, 805, the point was at 8, was like, okay, it's fair to be

frustrated, you know, it's fair to be frustrated. But like, I mean, what I said to myself was, this feels like a sign from the universe that you don't need acupuncture right now because once is one thing but twice is like to me that's not a coincidence like that like there's something there whatever it is or like maybe he I thought like maybe he isn't feeling great and I am not shouldn't be exposed to his energy or whatever like I kind of so I guess like for me I naturally gravitate to like, what is this? What am I supposed to gain from this? And like, certainly I was like, well, there would be a huge opportunity to be frustrated right now. But I'm just like, that's, that's not going to serve me in any way at all. But a huge part of like life and business also is

recognizing when you should like push through the obstacle. So how do you know when it's like something you should accept and work on that and when it's something you should push through. I think you can feel a difference. Like I'm very, very like gut intuition driven. Like always has have been only really understood what that meant over the last few years. Like I didn't know what it meant when like you just get a feeling and you know exactly what you need to do or an idea just flows through and you're like, I wasn't even thinking about that. Like so I what I have learned certainly at first when you push through everything. I mean, when you're starting a business, like, it's a shit show, you know, it's just like challenging hourly. And so it's not really a place

where I think you try to determine what's worth pushing through. I know for me, I try and kind of keep score. So like in the example of the acupuncture, it's like two times in a row, like, okay, I'm starting to get about, you know, I think like, so when you see patterns, I'm a huge believer of like, this universal knowledge and energy and that, like, that you're supposed to wake up to that. So and so I feel like as things, you know, I used to freak out about everything, of course, but I always wanted to push through, which I think is an important note for people who want to be in business or start their own company is like if you start feeling like you don't want to push through, you probably shouldn't do it because there are many, many years of pushing through ahead of you. But I think like once I got that in perspective, it's like you, I just get a, usually my feelings are like in my stomach, but I get a different sensation.

Like I think it's really important to pay attention to what your body is telling you in different situations. Like, do I feel relaxed? Do I feel tense? Does this feel bad? Does this not feel that scary? Like I feel like I can just, if I'm quiet, I can just like tune into that. And that has, I let that be my guide because I feel like, you know, our minds can get really problematic. And I would put myself in this.

People with anxiety can have a hard time trusting their gut because it's hard to differentiate between intuition and fear. Like if I sometimes, sometimes I know before I get. get on a plane that it is absolutely going to crash and I have been there. I should not get on it. But then I get on it and it's fine. Yeah. So how is do you, is there a way you can do that with regards to your anxiety? I mean, for me, you know, I, I think I talk about it a little bit in the book,

but I've definitely talked about it on Instagram. Like getting over my own travel anxiety was a huge thing for me because it like debilitating since I was a teenager. Help me. Yeah. Well, first of all, you have to go to my Instagram. There is in the stories highlights or whatever, I have one that's like step by step how I did it. Travel anxiety, which starts with getting to the airport really early. But also like the main thing for me with how I got to the, how I got to unpack a lot of my anxiety was understanding like that the mind and our ego is like a very outdated system. that is meant to protect us. So it was like a mechanism that made sense when we were being chased by lions. We are no longer, I mean, unless you're like SIGFried and Roy or whatever, those people were, those were tigers. But, you know, I mean, for most of us, we're not fearing

for our lives every day. Well, I do, but that's because I have an issue with that. But like, we're actually not in danger. But like, the mind wants to stay busy. And so it. creates these scenarios to like help you get out of danger, like getting on a plane that you know is going to crash when it's not. So as I was able to start separating like my, like just listening to what my mind is saying and not identifying it as like this is truth because like a lot of times it's not truth. And when it's fear based negative stuff, it's usually your mind wreaking havoc. So it's like if it's fear based, that's not your intuition, that's the anxiety? That's your mind.

Like limiting thoughts are usually from your mind. You know, I would say I think I, this is what I believe. If you were really about to get on a plane that was going to crash and you were thinking about it, you would feel something different in your body. Like it wouldn't be like your brain going. And then what if this happens? What is it? You know, it's like it can get very.

very noisy up there, you know, especially if you're being triggered by having to get on a plane and you don't want to. But to me, you know, the idea is like recognizing that voice in your head, realizing that it's not you, putting some distance between the thoughts, and then addressing it. Like I got to the point and I talk about this in the highlights, thank you for protecting me. I'm actually not in any danger. So I don't need you right now. You can just take a seat. If anything happens, I promise, I'll call you. But for right now, like, we're all good.

We're safe. And statistically, we're very safe. Like, actually driving in L.A. is more dangerous. And that, like, the more I practice that, and I do it with a lot of things, not just that. I mean, any time I'm trying to combat that sort of, like, negative self-talk, it's like, that's not me. That's just it's not me. I mean, so I have to like rationalize with this other, this other person that's up there.

And are you able to do that even when you have these like significant depressive episodes? I know you had like one in the desert. Yeah. Well, the desert was was not like clinical depression. The desert was just like. Grappling. I mean, trying to write a book in the middle of the desert being confronted by, you know, excavating and what comes up and it was it wasn't like a positive or negative experience.

I mean, it was both and it was neither. I think for me, depression is much different than anxiety because anxiety is very noisy. Depression, you're not actually hearing that much in your mind. Like everything slows down, you know, so much so that like you can't even talk. So it's like at that point it's more for me what comes up is like you can rest for a couple days and then if it's still there you got to take action like you can't let this. So like the way I approach like how I'm going to deal with that is different because my depression is like it truly just a chemical thing. And what is the action then calling a psychiatrist? Yeah.

Yeah. And then I mean the other thing that gets complicated is like a lot of times when you feel sad you're drinking or. you know, you're doing things that are actually contributing to it. And sometimes that's hard for me. So usually if I talk to my doctor or my Reiki healer, who's like sort of, she's like a quasi-therapist. Like, if I can just put it outside of me and talk to someone, it usually helps. Or I post something on Instagram, like really getting a perspective on how I'm feeling helps, like action, working towards a solution. for me. I'm really curious. You talk a lot about like mental health in the workplace and like you've

created a workplace where you can cry. We're in the crying room right now. That was one of my questions. You say in your book by the time this book comes out, we will have a crying room. That was definitely one of my questions. Okay, good. Well, here's what I'm going to tell you. There was a small argument about this room. But like I said, this is, well, I told you, I don't think we were recording yet, but this is like our HR office. It is the only private room. in our office. Everything else is glass offices or, as you saw, like an open floor plan. We have the second floor, which is private because no one goes down there.

But this was going to be the crying room. I was like, I'm going to do it. I've promised everyone I'm going to have it. And then they needed for HR more than they needed that. But in essence, in a way it is. You know, I think my office also has become a bit of a crying room in the best way, possible, you know, do I, I still have two months before the book comes out. So I'm like, can we build something downstairs? But, you know, I think that there's, I had dreams of like,

what the room. I mean, I think I described it in the book. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think like there's also a way to create that space like mentally and emotionally without being like, go in this room. Yeah. You know, and that I feel like is more of what we've accomplished just based on my own personality and like what felt acceptable to me always. Like there was never anyone shaming. Like I didn't realize that you could be like shamed for having emotions in the workplace.

Like I've never worked anywhere else. Like I was a freelancer. So this is my first job in an office. So were you, I have so many questions about this. Right. We have plenty of time. I think my lunch meeting got. canceled. Oh, great. I'd be here for five hours. Were you ever, like, embarrassed when you did have

really big, I know you talk about, like, the day Andrew Mubakcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, did you feel shame post facto or like people would view you as less of a boss or professional? No. Never. I mean, if you know anything about me, me worrying about it, if you seem professional, somehow never, never, never, never, never had the thought. Never had the thought in every profession I've had. which I guess is a blessing. But no, I just, I've always felt like that emotions are healthy. Also, like, I'm not walking around, like, hysterical screaming. Right.

Like, I certainly think there are, there's a level where it then becomes inappropriate. And certainly when those emotions are fueled by anger or, you know, come from a more negative place, I don't encourage it. I mean, I encourage responsible emotions. Yeah. In the workplace, not just like everyone, emote everywhere. I mean, I wouldn't encourage that in a home. Right.

You know, I just don't think it's healthy. But yeah, I've never, I've just never had that relationship. I feel shame about other things, but not that. Well, get in that. Yeah. Okay, so what about pragmatically, like, if somebody feels anxious, would you encourage them to go home? If somebody's having a depressive episode, can they stay home for three days? What if that's every month?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, I mean, we have a lot of these weighted blankets around the office. When you walked in, there's like this area called the chill zone where sometimes I think, like, I know it helps me to sometimes get out of the energy of a group and just sit quietly and just, like, breathe. I mean, we do, we do yoga here and guided meditation. And so, like, we do things to try and see.

set people up for success. So here's the thing. And this is like the thing that I think like the challenges of having a company and how you actually what what are the standards that you create. My answer is going to be I don't really know, but mostly because it's no longer my job. Like I don't run the company. I'm the chief creative officer. Like I work on like the vision, the aesthetic.

the tone, where are we going to be in five years? Like as far as like how do you implement these processes, it's I'm not actually the one that can solve it into the minutia. I'm the one that's like we need to implement policies. Yeah. You know, like I'm the one that's like this is what our workplace needs. And as far as like how we approach emotions or mental health issues in the workplace has been, we've been talking about it for years.

You know, and it's just not an easy thing. My sense is there's always an opportunity for people to work from home. I think, like, if you're going to be, have an anxiety attack every week and it's going to keep you from work, like, at a certain point, it's the individual's responsibility to work towards solving that. Yeah. Because, like, I think we would be on the spectrum of, like, one of the more understanding. companies to work for just based on me. Like if you report directly to me, I'm like, yes, please, go home. Here's what I think you should do.

Maybe read this book. You know, I don't think you're going to receive that in a lot of places. But I also just feel like it's not, it's like a mutual responsibility. Like, I mean, if it's that debilitating. Right. I mean, you have to address it. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. Today's episode is sponsored by one of my very very.

favorite long-term partners and one that's been definitely helping to keep me saying during my time at home, Simple Mills. I love all of their products, but in these days where many of us are spending far more time in the kitchen, their baking mixes have been an absolute lifesaver for two kind of opposite reasons. When I just want to sort of like bake my feelings out, I go for their brownier cake mix and I use it as a base to play around with. It's nice because you get totally foolproof results, which is really hard with healthy baking, but you can also put your own spin on it and turn it into therapeutic baking time. I love adding lavender to the brownie mix or doing a few drops of peppermint extract for like a mint chocolate vibe. And then I've also been playing around with

adding lemon zest and poppy seed to the vanilla cake mix and it is so good. We made it into muffins last weekend and we could not stop eating them. On the flip side, the pizza crest mix is a great one for the end of the day when you're like, okay, like I've already cooked two meals and I need to cook another one. It makes it so easy to get dinner. on the table stat. I just top it with some organic marinera sauce and whatever leftover veggies I have on hand with a big sprinkle of fine grain sea salt and whatever dried herbs I have in my pantry. As always, all of the simple milk baking mixes have amazing, super short ingredient list and they're all grain-free, gluten-free, dairy-free, and free from any weird gums or emulsifiers.

Currently, their website is a bit overwhelmed with order, so I recommend that you find them on Amazon. I've still been having a lot of luck getting them shipped to my house in Brooklyn. And if you do try something, tag me on Instagram and let me know, I would love to hear what you think. I am obsessed with Simple Mills and I know that if you try them, you will be too. All right, let's get back to the episode. Do you think, I know that you haven't worked in a traditional office other than one that you own, but, quote traditional here. Do you think that if somebody is having a panic attack, they should be, you know, and they can't come in? Would you say they should be open with their boss or their office or they're having, do you think that's the thing that will help destigmatize it ultimately?

Absolutely. But I don't think that I don't think the majority of people have that luxury. I don't think the majority of people have the type of boss or the type of relationship with their boss that they actually can do that. I think that there's certainly like over the last decade as there have been so many female founders and just like new sort of modern. companies started by younger people that weren't necessarily business people. I feel like there's a shift starting, but that's like probably 5% of the company's done. I mean, I don't know,

but a small percentage. So there is a lot of work to be done. I would say any, any opportunity you have to open up those conversations, it will, it will help. You know, I mean, you have to kind of size up your own situation because I'm not saying like do that and get fired. Although I think if it's something you really struggle with, do you want to work in that kind of environment? You know, but I feel like you can, in any workplace, you could reach your arm out and touch someone else who's either struggling with a mental health issue or is close to someone that is.

And so it's like, I mean, as I, the more I've talked about it, it's like, oh, I mean, we're all dealing. We all have brains, right? So like, we're all dealing with something to what degree, you know. sometimes it's maybe you can't even perceive it. But I think it's like mutual, mutual responsibility. And I do think it's like very situational as far as like what I would, the advice I would give. Because I do think it, I don't want to tell somebody to do something.

They're like fired. I always feel like it's like, oh, I had a nine to five job until February. And yeah, I quit just to like go on my book tour and like do all that kind of session. Thank you. You're welcome. And it's definitely been an experience. But there I felt like it was fine to say I had had anxiety, but not I am having anxiety. Because I just was like, you know, I would think people would not expect me to show up in the same way at meetings or with ideas or with my professional commitment.

So I think it, I felt very confident desigmatizing it in past tense, but not in present. Well, listen, I think that's a place to start. I think for me, I somehow have acquired this like inherent confidence in myself that I can struggle and still perform. Like that's, I mean, that's so valuable. Yeah. So, so I will say, I will come in and say, I'm dealing with a lot of anxiety today. So let me apologize in advance if you notice something like it's not you. It's just something I'm dealing with.

or I'm having horrible ADD and I just can't focus. So you might have to repeat something like I like I think because I'm like hyper self-aware. And I know that like I can still do it unless I'm like dealing with something debilitating, which when I had that depressive episode like there was a lot of things I was supposed to get done that week that I just called our president. And I was like I can't do it. Like my brain is not allowing it. And I think because 98% of the time I deliver, I've like earned. myself, you know, everyone's like, no problem.

Like, is the secret to that and like the compartmentalization, is that sort of announcing what people can expect from you, but that you'll be, like, is it front loading it in that way? Um, I don't know. You know, I mean, I think, uh, as it relates to mental health issues or really anything that has to do physical or physiological that has to do with performance, it's like, you know, I just forgot what I was going to say. And this is a very interesting thing. I can't believe we made it this far with that.

No, honestly, don't cut this out because it's important to see that. I don't know if I'm in perimenopause. I have so many different little things going on right now that I will literally, I mean, that happens to me sometimes anyways, but the extent to which it has been going on over the last, like, month is so frightening for me. because it's like the thing I really depend on. And I'm just like, you go to the doctor and like, well, it could be this and it could be that or it could be this. Do you have any other sort of hormonal symptoms?

I don't think so. I have to go get my blood work done again. I mean, now it's like at a point where I think it's like every six months you check it. I'm one of those people that will always have these like weird low-lying symptoms. And then I get my blood work done. And they're like, you're like one of the healthiest people. And I'm like, ah, tell me something wrong. Not that I want, you know.

But you want to solve something. Although I did think a really interesting part of your book was how you like wanted to have mono as a kid. Yeah. And he's like, was that like that type of thing where like I feel like something's wrong and I want a day. No, no, no. Was it an attention thing? Yeah. That's, I wanted to be seen.

I did too. I would, I had, I think, I took like 64 days off school one year because I felt like my mom treated me like I was special when I had a sick day. And so I would just like pretend to be sick all the time. me, I was not healthy. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, I think it's something that a lot of us struggle with but can't identify. I didn't know what was happening at the time. Yeah.

I just knew that, like, I wanted, that was just one account. But I was always like, I think I broke my leg. I think I'm always in the infirmary or, you know, whatever with like no. No. Yeah. No. In the 70s, it was called an infirmary, too. But it was like, I was always there and there were never any symptoms, you know.

And I do think it was like, listen. I'm sure there was like some low-lying mental health stuff, but I think it was mostly like needing needing to be seen. I wish I could remember what my answer was going to be, but it's like completely. Do you have, if I ask you again, like, let's try. Let's try. Anything could happen. Do you think that like front loading and saying I'm feeling this way this day, but I'm going to accomplish my stuff regardless? Is that sort of what lets you have your feelings in the workplace, but also be successful at the same time? I think it's, I definitely think it's part of it.

You know, generally speaking, I feel like a healthy level of self-awareness is like something that people respect. Like when you can just speak in a way that is, you can actually articulate how you're feeling. Like, I think that is a very powerful thing. And I think this is what I was going to say before. I've always been very candid, always been very candid about that. And so I think it took a lot of power away from the issues by just like I don't, I'm not like,

hear ye, hear ye. Everyone gather round. I've liked to tell you what's wrong today. It's a big deal. Like I think I just talk about it as much as like I got a rock in my shoe. Right. And I'm able to do that. I'm not saying like, just start doing it that way.

But I'm able to do that because I understand it. And it's like certainly a big deal, but also no big deal. Like we all have stuff we're dealing with. And like these are my things. And this is how they get in the way. But like, I'm always going to get an A for effort. And it's like doing your best is all you can do. And your best looks different every day.

And so I think it's less about compartmentalizing. I think it's like helping manage people's expectations. and communicating it because otherwise then they're left to create their own narrative about why you're acting that way and maybe she's mad at me and also like when you're a leader in an organization like people are constantly doing that anyways right so I have found the more I communicate it it actually just puts people at ease I also love the I mean I imagine it takes away some of its power for you too to just be like yeah this is something I'm dealing with and yeah it is the same as a rock in my shoe or something like that yeah I don't I don't

It doesn't have a lot of power over me. I think, like, really the only time it does is when I have a flare up and then it's actually creating obstacles. But outside of that, I'm just like, that's just part of who I am. I don't not like it. Like, I'm grateful, you know? Yeah, you say that you're sort of, you feel like your mental health struggles have taught you so much and that you are grateful for them.

What have they taught? Like, why have they made your life better? Yeah. Well, everything I've talked about, you'll see there are major themes to my life, which is like the idea of having self-awareness and emotional intelligence especially is like combined with me being sort of this like very resilient optimist who just wants to get to the bottom of things. Like I think all of that combined, it's just like I was presented with all of these challenges.

And it wasn't easy. I mean, as told in the book, like, it was a long time, 20 years of trying to figure it out. But there are so many gifts I've been given because of that. I mean, I have a deeper empathy for other people. I have a huge understanding of something that is now front and center in people's minds. And I can talk about it, you know, with you, with anyone in a way that like, I mean, I'm not a doctor, but I have like, you know, done a fair bit of reading on the topics. And I think it's like, I have multitudes.

Like I think it's just made me a layered person complex maybe, so not great for men dating. But like generally like, like I like the facets. And I just feel like being able to look back and know that I've survived what felt like some really dark stuff. Like I just have all this information now. Is there anything that you could say to somebody who was still, like, resenting their anxiety or depression? It was like, why can't I just be, like, happy and feel good like this person? Yeah.

Well, first of all, no one. Whoever that person is is not real. We all have a spectrum of moods. I mean, that's just it. I mean, I would just go back to, like, you can immediately change your perspective on that and start to dig around and see, like, can I list? three ways that this has actually helped me. Can I find one way? And just start from there, you know? And, and then I think it's like you do, it ultimately, it's your responsibility.

Like, I mean, we're here. We want to have the best life we can. And to compare or blame or whatever, it does not move you forward. I know a lot of people like that and they stagnate. and healthy people don't want to be around that kind of energy, you know? And so it's just like find a way to progress. There is always a way. I mean, listen, there are extremely dire situations and mental health like can get really bad. But I'm a huge believer that there is always a little bit of light even in the darkest tunnels. And it's just like our responsibility to at least know what direction it is and then like reach our handout.

and have somebody help you. I mean, the ice cream man, I don't know. It doesn't have to be the normal channels, but I've taken a lot of responsibility for my own stuff and have worked very hard to either implement them in a positive way of my life or grow beyond them. And I just think that it's the most empowering thing, you know, sitting and feeling bad about it or like wishing.

You can't just like wish your way out of stuff, you know, know. Yeah. That is, it's very empowering. You said you like your, your facets, but sometimes men do. Men don't like, I mean, listen, I, why that would be so rude for me to generalize. All men. The percentage of men that are willing to meaningfully engage with, you know, the complexities and quote unquote weirdness that, that I have, which I love about myself, I have found to a small percentage. How is date? Like, did that factor into, I know you like went through a long time where like, should we get divorced? Should we not? And ultimately, it seems like Andrew is the one who like finally took that. The universe did it. Honestly, the universe did it. But did that were, did that

contribute to the fear that like you found a man who embraced your facets and like how, how are you going to find another one? I don't know that he embraced all my facets. I, I will say that from a mental health standpoint, he was always incredibly compassionate and supportive. Never once from the moment I told him what I was struggling with all the way through to the end. Like, never, never failed to come to my side and do whatever it was that I felt like needed to be done. But I think there were complexities to me that he just probably didn't even understand. Not not because he there's anything wrong with him.

Like, I mean, you know. So no, I don't, I'm not, you know, I would worry more about a plane crashing that I'm going to get on or that some strange person is going to murder me than I would like, will someone ever love or understand me again? Also, because I'm just like, I don't know, that would be cool, but I don't feel like. You don't necessarily feel like you need to get married again? I'm not one of those people. Okay. No. How is dating at like 48?

How do you think? Well, I think it's, I, you know what? Honestly, I don't know, obviously. But I do think there would be something very empowering about dating when you are as self-aware and self-actualized as you are. Yes. I think finding the people to date is harder. The dating, like I went out on a date yesterday and a daytime date.

which I've never done and was like really, you don't have to get super fancy. There's no pressure. You're not like drinking wine. Yeah. Were you drinking at all? Coffee. Or actually not coffee. Dan Dibrew.

Just like a dandelion. It's so good. Great for you liver. It's so good. But that, yeah, it's interesting to take drinking out of the equation because I think that a lot of people like feel like they need that lubricant. Yeah. But it also inhibits you getting to like know somebody. Totally.

I mean, would highly recommend it. And I think a lot of people do that. But I think it's like, it's not dark out. You're not drinking. There feels no pressure to like kiss or go back to my place. Like it's like to the afternoon way. Yeah. I mean, hey.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be up for that with the right person. But I feel like it's like just like a very sobering way to approach it. And I was like, I actually liked that. But I will say when I've gotten to the point where I've actually been on a date, which is twice after, you know, it's like over a fairly long period of time. Yeah, I feel very confident. Like I don't feel nervous. I think, well, I don't know if this may be too much for somebody, but like it is who I am. And I also think because of my level of awareness and emotional intelligence, like, I can,

I can sort of understand people in a way that maybe I couldn't, you know, it's like, I feel like in your 20s, like, it's just like you're blindfolded. It's really hard. Yeah. And when I look back on like what dating was like then and it's like, I don't even, it was like, is he cute? Is he cute? I don't know, you know?

Like, now it's like, I'm just looking for different things. And also like I've been married. Like I don't feel like I'm building towards something. Like I'm just like I'm not anti-companionship, but I'm not like it's not oozing out of my pores that I need. I don't actually don't even know where I would fit that right now. Interesting. Do you, is it different dating? Because when you met Andrew, you weren't like the successful businesswoman that you are now.

Now you like you're a name. People know people. people certainly know the name of your company. You have a pretty significant following. Is it weird to go into a date and people like kind of feel like they know who you are? Men don't know who I am. Men absolutely do not. They do not know what Bando is.

They don't even like do a little research before the date. Because I actually gravitate to actual men. So like mid 40s and on. And most of them don't know to do investigative. And just because like generally, generationally it's different. I mean, the first thing I do is like when I'm on a dating site, I'm like on my phone and then on my computer like looking at video. I'm just like, I'm gathering.

Which actually like I don't think is healthy either because it doesn't really tell you who they are. Yeah. But like, I mean, the guy yesterday was like, forgive me, tell me about your company. I'm like, no, you're not in my demo. Like I don't expect you. Like, there's no way you would know. So do you like that or like you've talked, you talked a little bit in the book about the

power dynamic that came from you having the money you have and the success that you have? So do you like sort of people not knowing you're coming into with all of that? I prefer to like I'm looking for people that are also successful because I just don't want that. I don't want that again. How did that sort of impact? I think that's a big thing that women. we're told that we can like do it all and be these people but then I do think it's my husband is so he's such a feminist and he grew up in that environment and I'm still surprised by how my success impacts

our relationship yeah yeah you know um well I mean in a nutshell I think it's just incredibly emasculating like I I think certainly 50 hundred years from now it it will be different because boys and girls will be raised differently but like there's still something inside of us that's like I think for men especially that like they should be the one you know and um it didn't really affect me like I wasn't like you know certainly at a point there was a level of resentment because I'm just like I want someone to contribute but I never was like I'm more than you or I'm but I think for him it was difficult you had to make yourself smaller to make him feel good of course of course well I definitely couldn't like talk that much about things at work or I think all of that was very triggering for

him also because Bando really took my focus off of him in a lot of ways. But yeah, I think it's hard. I don't think it's like insurmountable in any way. And I do think like certainly the the personality and perspective of the partner can change it. But I just think generally it just it is emasculating. And then there is a power struggle. And there's something like not as sexy to that. You know, I think it just, it just sort of builds. I mean, some of it I think is just human nature. And also, like, I didn't know what was happening.

Like, I feel very equipped now to, like, better understand what could happen. And, like, I was just like, my marriage isn't working. Like, everything I articulate in the book was like in retrospect. expect as it was happening. I mean, I knew this is not great, but I didn't really know the intricacies of like the damage this could do because I maybe would have addressed it in a more meaningful way other than, you know, little arguments or whatever. And then the other relationships in your life are obviously your friendships. And I think that you've done this incredible job, at least from an outward perception of building these really strong female friendships. So I'm one curious if you have, I'll think a lot of people are like, I want to find my tribe. But I don't know how to do that. So do you have any, like, how did that happen for you? I get asked about that a lot.

It's funny. My friend Busy and I got asked to do a panel, well, just a conversation for, like, glamour women of the year thing. And it was like about adult friendships. And I was like, no one's, is that what they want us to talk about? I don't feel like anyone would care. It's really hard to make friends as an adult. It is people are so curious. To talk about it.

I've mentioned it a few times. on my Instagram and I'm like overwhelmed by that. I was like, oh, so I have to think about, I mean, some of it involves like Instagram stalking, you know, like I think some of it. Have you actually made real friends through Instagram? Yeah, my friend Kelly Oxford, who is also how I met busy, I like completely stalker. What does it look like without being creepy? Well, I think I have a good, I mean, listen, there was an incident with Nick Kroll where I definitely was creepy.

And by incident, I mean, several. Is he like your, then was asked to stop? Your guy? He was. I think that ship has sailed. But generally speaking, especially when it does not come to men, I think I have like a good gauge on like what's too much. So like literally what are you in Kelly's DMs? Yes.

What are you saying? I think it's like a lot of, God, I wish I could scroll back and find that. Probably have DMed a bit since then. Yes. And also a lot of it, I think maybe started on Snapchat. But I think, you know, I don't know how I found her, but I just felt like we were kindred spirits and like had a similar sense of humor. And I felt like she embodied a lot of things that maybe I wanted to like.

bring out in myself. Like what? Well, like just, I mean, her profession. Like writing and like leaning into humor, you know, felt really interesting to me and was something that I knew what I wanted to do, but did not see a path to that at the time. But I think I was just like, I mean, we're good friends. So I think I just had a good sense. I don't know that everyone has that barometer.

Like I think sometimes people are like, we could be friends. I would be best friends with that person. And it's like, well, actually, like, super interesting because a lot of people feel like, like, I bet a lot of people feel like they could be your best friend because you share so much of yourself on Instagram. And that might not actually be the case in real life. Yes. Most people probably wouldn't end up being my best friend, but maybe.

For myriad reasons. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, on both sides. And so, but just, I'm just always so curious, like, are you literally like, hey, I think we would vibe, let's grab a coffee? Or is it like commenting on photos? I think I started just by like, yeah, commenting or like leave.

Yeah, like just trying to be funny. Like trying to like let her see that like we're compatible. And then we just started DMing. And then she knew Bandel. And so we like sort of connected over that. And I mean, I think I have to look, I mean, it might have been like a year before we actually met. You know, like I think there were a couple times I was like, let me, I'll drop it off at your house. Like I was like going to give her something or whatever.

And she was like, no, you can just mail it to me. And then eventually we were kind of going through separations at the same time. And we ended up meeting and just like we're in a very similar place like personally. And so I think we just locked in. But I'm trying to think a lot of the friends I made beyond that were like, like, for instance, like busy I met at Kelly's birthday party. Like I think one friend can lead to lots of other friends. I also think like working out, I met a lot of people.

You know, I think if there's like some consistency in your routine where you're actually like in situations with other people. you eventually, I mean, it's first you don't talk, then eventually you're like, what's your name? And then you're talking and then it's like, would you want to get dinner or something? You know, I mean, I think it's like, it's not instantaneous. Well, and I think it's also interesting because there's this whole like movement now to take care of yourself and not go to the birthday party and stay in and stuff like that. And I met some of my friends in the times where I've pushed myself to do the thing that my anxiety would have maybe had me not do. Yeah.

I mean, listen, I would say go to the birthday party. I mean, I don't think staying in is the cure-all and like the only route to self-care. You know, I think actually sometimes pushing yourself out of your comfort zone is the best thing you can do for yourself. And I mean, outside of stalking people on Instagram, like, you're not going to meet anyone inside your home. Right. So like take a class. You know, I mean, one of my best friends I met in sewing class 20 years ago, 15, 20 years ago. You know, I mean, it's like when I think about some I met at jobs, you know, I think it's like,

and there are seasons to friendships too. So like you may be now, we haven't talked to one of your friends in 10 years and then you talk again and you pick right back up, you know, I don't think there's like one singular way. But I also think it's like, this is what my challenge with dating that I'm really trying to work on is like, am I truly open to this? Like, am I being open-hearted about this or am I just saying I'm doing it? But honestly, I'm still closed. And I think it's the same with me.

You know, I think meeting new people in general. Like, if you're not truly open to it and like ready to like ride the wave of what that means to like interact with strangers and build a relationship, then like it's probably not going to pan out. Yeah. Are you, were you like at the birthday party when you met busy? were you like intimidated by the fact that she's somebody you would have already known who she was? No, I didn't really know her. Did you know she was an actress? I knew she was an actress.

Or people in L.A. just in, like, I know you said in the book, like went on a date with Jennifer Aniston. And you're just like, ha-ha, side note. And I was like, is that what life in L.A.? It's like, no, I mean, listen, I think if you're here long enough, it definitely can. That was like semi-random. I mean, we just happened to have boyfriends that were best friends. But I think that in busy's particular situation, like, I definitely, I mean, I definitely knew that she was an actress. And I mostly just knew her name busy because we also had all of these products that said, I am very busy.

Yeah. And like I said, oh, you know, she introduced herself and I was like, oh, oh, my God. Do I have a planner for you? I was like, oh, my God, I like, I know your name because of we make all this. She's like, yeah, I know who you are. because she's like, I get sent it all the time. And then we just like, we're kind of immediately friends. But I don't get intimidated anymore.

Like, I just feel like an established person. Like, I don't know. I think it's something that comes with age and with, like, succeeding in any way, shape or form in life. Like, I just feel like I have a confidence that's like I don't think people are better because they're famous or wealthier than me. It's like, I don't know, in the end, we're all the same. I also do think it's an interesting thing, even the base assumption.

Like, I always find it interesting in interviews with a celebrity. We like want to know their thoughts on everything because they're an actress on a TV show. And it's like, I want to know your thoughts on the thing I feel like you're qualified to talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's interesting that you wait opinions so much more because they happen to be on a TV show or happen to be in a movie or something. I think it's just the sense of like familiarity. I mean, for me, even in dating because I'm on that Raya app, which is like there's a lot. And I, and like my friends are always like, why are you on that?

Like it's, and I'm like, well, I think part of it is like I'll see people that I feel like I recognize or know. And it feels like it takes some of like the scary mystery out. And it's like, and it's like, and it's ridiculous. Like you don't know them. You absolutely don't know them. And so I think, I think especially now because we have access to so much of people that you, you're curious about it because of the way like celebrity especially is presented to us. I mean, that said, I think there's a lot of celebrities that have a lot to offer outside of what they do.

But I do think generally people just, it's probably in the same way that people know me are like, like from Instagram. don't personally know me when I meet them. There's like a familiarity that they're like, I'm so sorry. Is this weird? And I'm like, no, it's not weird. Like, I totally get it. Yeah. And so I think, I just think that that's like a cultural thing that has been that way always.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Last thing on friendship. You, I think you talked a while ago on Instagram. You like went on a trip with a bunch of your friends and you like had a depressive episode on that trip. I want to say to Mexico.

Mm-hmm. It was actually a work trip. A work trip. Okay. Yeah. I'm so curious. this like I just recently had a panic attack in front of a friend where I told her that I was having it.

Yeah. And it was so, I don't know, it just was like my last shame thing I needed to like get over. And she was so great and so wonderful. But I'm just curious how you balance, you know, be like showing up and being there. And then are you like on that trip where you like, I'm feeling anxious. I'm feeling depressed. I'm not going to go to the pool today. Yeah.

Yeah. I so the trip started as a as like a personal thing it was a friend's wedding and then some of the girls from work met me it was like an inspiration trip for us by the time they got there which I had already been to Mexico for like four days I was already like not great but I sometimes it'll be four days and out and sometimes it will be a lot longer so I was like I'm just going to like I didn't want to burden them initially with like I'm having a depressive episode because they'll worry about me they're like girls. that I've known that I've worked here for so long so they're like family to me um but yeah eventually it was just like undeniable and so I think it's just like setting boundaries for myself and yeah being like I'm just going to have to skip out on this or like if I go I might just be quiet um do you ever feel like your mental health has gotten in the way of you being like the friend that you want to be oh all every every stage of my life. I mean, even recently, I've had to apologize for people and just say, like, I didn't,

like, I didn't come to whatever, this dinner. It wasn't, like, please, it has nothing to do with you. Like, I'm just struggling right now and I couldn't do it. Like, but even in my 30s, like, I couldn't always articulate that. So I think a lot of people felt very abandoned by me because I wasn't saying anything. And I think I've heard a lot of people's feelings based on some suffering that I was having that I just wasn't necessarily communicating. Like I've actually have made a commitment to try and understand what being a better friend is like because I think I'm like a really fun friend and I like love to give advice and like people like to be friends with me. But I think fundamentally, I don't always know the things that you're supposed to do to like maintain a

friendship. And I don't, I haven't had to lean into it because I'm just likable, you know? And I can like just joke about something and then they're just like warmed back up. So you made in in making that commitment, have you sort of figured any of those things out yet? Yeah. I mean, I think like, I think open communication. I mean, I think treating it like any other intimate relationship, you know, I think those same rules apply. So I think it's like showing up for people. people if you can't show up communicating why I think like setting your own boundaries I mean sometimes what I would do in friendships is like put myself last and then do everything for the other person and then secretly feeling like resentful yeah that there's no reciprocity and so I think

you know I mean I I think it's just like being being responsible and being communicative and like honoring yourself and the friendship as much as you're honoring your friend. And so I just try and try not to make any assumptions. Like I think like, right, that's where so many arguments and like misunderstanding serves. Like you just don't say the one thing. But then you just start to create a narrative in your head. And then the next thing you know, you're in a fight and there was no reason. I mean, I'm not really a person that fights with anyone.

But I think like. But you can build up resentment. Yeah. Certainly based on assumptions for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Or at least have a misunderstanding that. like puts a little dent in the friendship that didn't need to be there. Right. You know.

Another way relationships have like played a huge role in your life, I feel like is in work. Like you talk in the book about how when you guys first launched the site, Oh joy, shared about it and you got all these orders. And then I think they're, oh, when you guys wanted to sell, you like had a friend who put it on a young president's site or something like that. How when you're building relationships in your work life, are you sort of, thinking about that strategically or how I know that networking has played like a huge role in my own life but I struggle with feeling like I only want to become friends with people if I really want to. Yeah. And it feels icky to do it for any other reason. Yeah, I'm a horrible networker.

Okay. Horrible. My mom, I remember when I graduated college and she like got me these business cards that I had no business. It just like had my name and like FSU graduate. I don't know. It was so silly and she was like you have to learn to network and I was like no I don't that I think anything that feels like semi inauthentic is very hard for me like it's always just made me uncomfortable so I have I can't think of a time where I've been like super strategic about a friendship as far as like well this will help me professionally you're listening to the healthier together podcast You all know that I am fully obsessed with tea. I probably drink honestly like 12 cups of herbal tea a day. Because of my anxiety, I don't actually consume any caffeine. I've actually found that

that caffeine type stimulation and jitters can lead me to have panic attacks, which is one of the many, many reasons why I love Pucka so much. Pucka is a tea company that I became addicted to years ago when Zach and I were living in England and they have so many herbal teas, including tons of medicinal herbs that you really can't find anywhere else. They have so many kinds, so I definitely encourage you to go to Puckaerbs.us to check them all out. But a few of my favorites are the relax, which has a marshmallow root, fennel, and camamile blend. And it helps with digestion or just general stress relief. I love to drink it to just unwind and sink into my couch. And then the after-dinner tea, which I drink whenever I feel too full, which is often because I like my

snacks. And then the Tulsi Clarity, which has holy basil, which is really cool. It's actually an adaptogen that adjust to give your body whatever it needs, whether it's more energy or more focus or more zen. I love sipping on the herbal tea all day as a way to stay hydrated without drinking a ton of caffeine or getting bored by water. And I also really love reaping the benefits of all of the functional herbs. It's such an easy, impactful thing to do to totally improve your health. I know a lot of you are worried about plastic and tea bags after all of those news stories a while back and I'm happy to report that the pucka bags are fully plastic-free and are stitched together with 100% organic non-GMO cotton, no weird glues or anything. A hundred percent

of their ingredients are organic and Pucka actually sources really consciously as well. They're certified Fair for Life, which is the highest standard of fair trade, which means the farmers they source from are being treated well and paid super fairly. You can go to pukhaerbs.us. Check out all of Pucka's amazing tea blends. They have caffeinated ones too, including a green tea and cardamom revitalized blend that Zach is totally obsessed with. And if you have any questions or just want to chat about tea, I love chatting about tea. Hit me up on Instagram at Liz Moody, I could honestly talk about tea until the end of time. Now, let's get back to the episode. Do you always, do you think, how do you think then that you get those relationships that have sort of,

because relationships are such a huge part of a career. Yeah. I mean, I think I just try and be a magnet for like drawing in what I put out. And so I think I pull people in. I mean, it's been the same here. I just think I pull people in to my orbit. And then if there's something there, like, I mean, those relations have been effortless. I mean, Joy's been my friend for a long time. She, like, posted about me on her blog when I was had a blog. And then, like, eventually we met. And then we were kind of starting businesses at the same time.

You know, I think it's like, I mean, I like the people I like. I sort of, I mean, now have the luxury of like being. in social situations with other people that are established in their life, whether it's business or Hollywood stuff or, you know, doctor, you know, it's like whatever it is. It's like I'm a grown up. So I commune with other grownups. But I think like I just here in L.A. just had the luck of like sort of like randomly getting in with a group of people that were all kind of doing their own thing. And like we just were like, that's all like have a dinner once month or something, you know, I think. Well, that's interesting though, because that even that just

creates a structure for it. Yeah. I think if it was like, we've had a couple of mixers here and I'm like, I promise they won't be like the kind of mixer that is like the absolute worst. And people have really benefited from it. And so I think like, I think probably deep down, I like the idea of networking, just not in the way that it is portrayed. And so I do think like just being like, let's get together or or like I had friends. We would get breakfast every Friday and just like talk about what was going on. And then I met friends from their friends, you know, and I, so I think it's like, I don't know. I guess I always, I'm just a believer of like, I think all things can come organically if you're like have the right energy.

Like I just feel like the right things come to you if you're putting the right energy out. Like it's just that's always how it has been for me. And what if somebody is like, man, I want to have that right energy. But like I feel like, like you even, I think you said with your ex that he just felt like so unlucky. And it's just like what if you're just like you wake up every morning. You're like, I'm going to have the right energy today. And that just feels like the world like punches you in the face. I think that you you have to start by like what I was saying earlier.

I know people like that. And I and Andrew too. Like it would have been it was just hard because it's just not the way I look at the world. I mean, I've been punching the face a bunch if we're keeping score. But so it's like a punch in the face isn't a punch in the face unless you see it as a punch in the face. Yeah. I mean, listen, you're still getting punched, right? But it's like I just don't believe that the like world is so cruel that it just punches you in the face all the time.

Like I and and listen, I've had a I've I've I've had a great life. So I'm not dealing with some of the some of the tragic lives that people are having. but I do, I just approach those things as an opportunity. I just always have. Like, I'm in a curiosity. Like, I wonder why this is happening right now, you know, rather than, I mean, if I get 10 punches in the face and one day, I'm like, I think I just need to go to bed. You know, have I had like long periods?

I think when I was in my 20s trying to figure things out, I think I felt like, you know, You know, if I chose to look at the world, the world was against me. There may have been times. But again, I just think there's always this little glimmer inside of me that's like, that's not what's happening. And now older, I mean, the perspective I have and have had for so long has served me so well in my life that it's like, to me, it's like, why would you ever, like, why would you have that perspective? Like, you could very quickly not have it and just be like sort of take it apart. like these are the things that would make any person sad or feel defeated. And I'm going to like process those negative things and emotions and like work through it. And then here are all these other things that I'm just creating on top of it. Like just piling on more negativity that only is going to cause me more suffering. No one else is going to suffer from what I'm doing. And so I just and also just having the luxury of like looking back on my life.

It's like any time something that would be on paper, a punch in the face, like has actually just created some other opportunity. Sometimes you don't even see what it is for 10 years. But like, I mean offhand and maybe I've just like haven't spent any energy on like holding on to the really awful things. I can't think of anything that didn't end up being great even if I felt really destroyed at the time. Have there been any, can you give an example of something that felt like impossible to work through either at work or personally and like how you actually did the work to go through it? I mean, no. I mean, I think about my marriage a lot just because, you know, that was like a constant issue, you know, for a long time. and certainly something that had negative things happen for both of us.

And when I look back, was like, oh, that was like nudges to just like address this and maybe understand that it's not the right thing. So I'm like thinking about work, I mean, listen, it's like a lot of bad things happen in business all the time, you know, lawsuits or misunderstandings or people are. ripping you off or people are accusing you of ripping them off or I mean any number of things I mean a lot of great things happen too I think um I think I can't recall something because I literally just like process it move on like I don't like document these are the awful things that happen like I don't think anything I mean maybe the things that have happened would be awful for someone else but like for me

I mean we've gone we've had some really high periods here and some really low periods and I think the most recent low sort of came at a time where I was gaining a better understanding of like why those things happen and like the value and that there are no peaks without valleys and no valleys without peaks. So it was just like that was the first time in my life where I'm like, I can just sort of sit back and watch this happen. There's like there's not really anything I can do. And I'm just going to let it play out and being on the other side of that now. it's like, huh, that was great. Like, it actually, everything is great now. It's so weird. So I think it's like maybe sometimes it's like more of being like observant and curious and not feeling like

you have to react right away. Do you meditate? Because that feels like a very, like, meditating perspective. I do. I'm not great at it. I mean, I'm very mindful just in general. Like I'm just because of the ADD, like I'm just not not great in it. And I usually fall asleep because I refuse to sit up and meditate, although we did a meditation at my house the other day and I was like, I did it, 11 minutes sitting up. And I didn't fall asleep. But I think even a few minutes of that, even a minute, you know, of just like trying to clear, like truly clear or like connect with something greater. It certainly helps me. But I'm not like, I meditate every day. I wish I could say that. I don't know if that's in my future. Do you still see Laurel, the therapist that you credit for changing your life?

No. Although I feel like I should send her a book. It's like the most flattering portrayal of a human I've ever read. I think you should absolutely send her a book. She deserves it. No, you know, I think I just like evolved out of that and really haven't done that much talk therapy. Like I've really sort of taken everything I've learned and just. tried other, like, manners of, like, healing.

So, and now I just feel like, I kind of want to just preserve the time we had. Like, it was very impactful in my life. But I think, like, again, it doesn't mean it's the same thing with jobs or with anything. Like, just because something was so amazing, it doesn't have to be amazing for the rest of time. So I think it's just like, it's like this little long period of my life. But what are some other modalities you've tried in? Like, would you recommend or not recommend? Just like list them and be like, recommend all of it, except for float tanks.

Why no float tank? Not a fan. No, I mean, for me personally, I was just like, I did it not do anything or did it make things worse? I just didn't like the experience. Okay. Like, I just did. It was not pleasant for me at all. But I am just a huge advocate for trying everything and then just being honest with yourself about what's actually working.

Okay. You know? So what's worked for you? Well, Reiki healing has been like life-changing. The same cleanse friend is the one that introduced me to my Reiki healer, Betty, who I mentioned briefly in the book, life-changing for me. So energy work, I think, I mean, I've mentioned energy so many times in this interview. Like, it's a huge thing for me. And I saw a huge change in myself and just how I felt through that. I did a little bit of EMDR.

Can you just speak to what that is super quickly? It's so it's it's a type of therapy. I mean, it's not a talk therapy really, but it's like a type of therapy that was developed or I think it was developed for veterans or something. It's like for PTSD. Yeah. But as it turns out like there are all levels of trauma. So it's essentially I think maybe you know like it's it goes to a place in you

your brain where you hold certain things that you actually can't extract with like cognitive stuff or talk therapy. And it doesn't just by moving, you move your eyes, right? You can move your eyes or you can either I think was not great for me. So I held these buzzers and you basically just walk through certain experiences in your mind. And then they'll kind of stop you and be like, what are you thinking now? What are you? It somehow unpacks it.

But I feel like I, like the really, I know I have PTSD from certain experiences. but my memories of those time are so little. Like, I don't remember it. They're there, though. That's what this does. It pulls them. They're there. Everything is there.

So even if you go in and you're like, I literally don't remember that year by life. Yes. That's their job. Okay. Like is to extract those and like process it and let it go. Okay. So I didn't feel like I had any major traumas. I was just dealing with like a murder complex that I could not.

shake where I literally all the time thought people were going to murder me, including my brother. Every time we went on a hike, I'm like, you have to walk in front of me. And in my mind, I'm like, you will push me off this cliff. And he does not, I don't think, I mean, I think there's been times in his life where maybe he wanted to murder me because I'm an annoying older sister. But so I just, I was like, this is just limiting. Yeah, totally helped. Really? She also, this particular doctor was the one who like explained mindfulness and like you start by doing mindfulness. exercises and having that along with all the things I was reading about like the brain and the ego like helped me. I'm a very fast learner. So it was like sometimes I only need like I'm

sure I could go back and really dig some some stuff up. But I know a lot of people who have had a huge success with that. So I would do that. I mean like obviously acupuncture. I mean normal stuff like exercising but sound bad. Yeah, I mean, I'll literally, I would try anything unless I felt like it was really going to put me in danger. But like even like psychedelics, like I just think I've done mushrooms. No, I'm I, I, it's very intriguing to me, but I have read some things with like if you're on medication, you're not really supposed to do it. And I don't want to go off medication. Maybe at some point in my life, but now does not seem like the time to like disrupt that.

But I do think like with lower level stuff, like I've had some like very interesting experiences. Yeah. Like I, it wasn't something where I'm like, let's get high. Like I just I did you try to do it in like a therapeutic sense? I did it. I did it when I was in the desert by myself. And I and I understood like what I mean, I had done a lot of research and like understood what those those types of. you know, plant medicine or whatever is meant to do, like what it's meant to reveal. And I was

like so interested in that. And did it? Yeah. It's wild. But I think you have to, I mean, I think a lot of people just do it recreationally, um, which is no judgment there. I mean, like, sure. But I, but I do think you have to sort of like, at least for me, I feel like the times I've gone in like with an intention or a question or like wanting to get perspective. And I'm like writing things down while it's happening. Yeah. Has been, I mean, it just, it just moves your mind and ego aside and just gives you, like, access to, like, another level of knowing that, like, we don't access normally. So it, like, astounded by it.

And I'm not a drug person. Like, I just do weed or CBD? I will. I mean, CBD, huge part of my getting through. getting through my anxiety. Weed was like very late to the game, like only in the last couple years. Like when it was actually legal? Yeah, I waited until it was legal.

So the mushroom thing is a little funky because it's not legal, but it should be legal and it will be legal. Yeah, it will be same. And I feel like I'm using it very responsibly. But I, yeah, the weed, I was like, I can't do it until I could get a card. And now you don't even need that. But I have mixed feelings. Like I've used it a lot just as like, so I'm not drinking all the time or just like as a relaxer.

Like I'm not trying to get as high as possible. Like I don't know. I don't think that that makes any sense. But I do think it affects my mood afterwards. Like, I mean, there are a lot of things that say like if you're suffering from depression, like you shouldn't do that. And I also think like maybe it is interrupting some of my cognition. So I'm in a weird place with it because I'm just like, oh, why do I have to let go? everything. What about alcohol? Like you, you obviously drink and you talk about drinking,

but do you ever, like, how do you balance that with your depression and your anxiety? You know, it's, I don't feel like I, with like what I would say, like normal alcohol consumption, so like a glass of wine a week or, you know, like a couple drinks on the weekend. Like, I don't feel like that has really caused me a problem. I think when I'm. actually going into a depression and then I'm drinking all the time. Like not to a place where it's like I'm blacking out every day. But like if I'm having a glass of wine every day and then on the weekends like having four drinks and not feeling good for two days after like I can't imagine that's not a contributor. You know. I have a friend who like quit drinking because of what

she calls like the fear the next day. And it just gave her such anxiety the next day that she felt like she couldn't do it. Oh, yeah. I haven't really experienced anything that. I think if I had, I would. But I will say I gave up drinking like mid-December and haven't had anything. And I feel great. I mean, it's absolutely unsustainable for me because I just like to have a drink. You know, I mean, I think it's fine.

And I think I have a relatively healthy relationship with it. But I mean, I, you know, I mean, if you do everything that like people that know, mind-body stuff and how food relates. If you follow those things, you pretty much always feel better. But I just, I mean, to me, there's like, it has to be something in moderation. Well, I feel like there's also like, I always say there's like feeling good in your body, feeling good in your soul, feeling good in your mind. And you have to balance all of them. And like, possibly makes me feel good in some ways. Yes. It makes me feel less good in other ways. Yes. A balance. Yeah. Totally. Okay. So one more thing before I ask the questions I ask everybody. Okay. I want to talk.

about appearance, especially in terms of like you're really open about when you have acne struggles on Instagram and stuff like that. It's an ongoing thing. Well, and I think some, I think, and also even with aging, you'll talk about that. And I'm curious what your relationship is to your physical appearance. We've talked a little bit about body like your face and how you find confidence in that. Yeah. You know, it's a very complicated relationship because there's like the voice inside of me,

That's like you should be ashamed that you're aging. You should be ashamed that you look like that. You should be ashamed that your butt looks like that. You know, you're not as pretty as other people. You know, just all of them. It's the voice inside. It's the voice of coming from all around. Listen, it's when it's just me, myself, and I, I can hear it loud and clear, you know,

without looking at anything. So, but certainly, yes. I mean, especially growing up when I, did like, I mean, it was force fed. So what do you do with that? Um, well, I, I am really, it's a very front of mind for me right now, um, because I would love to just eliminate it, because I just don't, it's just not something. On the flip side, there is this very grounded, realistic sort of zen side of me that's like, as far as aging, like, I got to like 38 and I hadn't done anything like Botox and then I was like I don't know why you would start now like I like

I sort of then just like developed this curiosity like I wonder how I'm going to age like I wonder what not fighting it would look like because I feel like watching people fight it is like it's a battle you don't win yeah and I was like what if I had one less battle and was just like huh And also, like, what a great thing to be able to show to younger people that, like, that doesn't have to be the thing. And like, there's so much wisdom. Like, there's so much that comes with age that's great. That, like, I feel like it's something I could sort of destigmatize.

So there's a motivation there. And I very rarely, rarely feel maybe in the dating world is probably the only time where it's like because you're basically, quote unquote, competing with women 20 years. younger than you, but I'm just like, whatever. And then I think like with like appearance stuff outside, just like looks wise, I think there is the part of me that's like, it doesn't matter. Like that's not who you are. Like I'm what's inside. And like I try and project that out. So it's like, I think about people I love that wouldn't be if you saw a picture of them wouldn't be like, oh my God, gorgeous. But it's like I can see them whole, you. You know,

You know, it's like, I don't even think about it. Some people I probably couldn't even tell you what color their eyes are because I just don't think of them as like features and body. And so I try and project that onto myself to be like all the work I've done and holding myself accountable to being a good person and like putting good out into the world. It's like I kind of feel like that should be enough, you know, and would just love to reduce the other stuff. But I think there's a lot. I don't know that I have the solution. I think there's, you can ask me in a year because I will be through it this year.

I think it's just like everything else, like dismantling those thoughts and like just really understanding where they come from and like how you can like turn it into like a whisper. And then it just slowly goes away with lots of other things. and Betty, my Riki Healer would tell me that, like, don't worry that it didn't just flip. Like, just keep doing it. And, like, in a few months, you're going to be like, oh, my God, I just realized that hasn't happened in a month. And that has happened, like, that happened to me with a lot of other, like, you know, ruminations I would have. So I feel confident.

I just think I have to do a little bit more work to, like, really get to the bottom of why I can't. I think I think I was just given some of those things like things that maybe aren't like the the quote unquote perfect version of something for me to like finally in this lifetime like just work through like true self acceptance and I'm just not there yet. So when you like have a pimple, do you feel like that's an opportunity to do that work? I feel like it's an opportunity to pop it. For sure. You know the pimples. I mean, listen like I I wish I wouldn't have them. Those are more like a frustration when you have something physical happening and you're doing all the right things and you can't get to the bottom of it.

Yeah. I mean, outside of that, like most people have like very few. Busy has perfect skin. Never seen anything like it. Just like a porcelain doll. But I think like for the most part, it's like, okay, well, what are you going to do? I think there are bigger things for me. I think it's like, why do your legs look like that?

And they're not, that's not due to anything. That's just like genetically how they turned out. Like, why does my dad have beautiful thin ankles and I have these other things, you know, but it's like those are silly, silly things. Right. So that's, I think, where the real opportunity lies. I think like gray hair or whatever is like, I'm just like, oh, okay, well, but also like, cool. So have you not done Botox or filler?

Nothing. I've never done anything. But again, it's like in LA that almost feels. like just like such a huge thing. I'm just like, are you the only one? Well, listen, I think if I had to be on camera all the time, I mean, even with Instagram, like I'll see stuff. I'm like, oh, God, sagging everything.

But then I'm just like, whatever. I, like I said, I think I missed the window mostly because I feel like I would be the one person that would die from Botox. And that kept me out of the Botox game. And then I was like, I mean, these wrinkles are pretty deep. Like, I just don't think it just, I. it just doesn't feel like it would make any sense. And so I just like, I would rather spend my, the money I'm going to allot to personal

betterment on things that like run much deeper than that. Like I just don't want to, I mean, because it's not, it's a costly endeavor that kind of maintenance. So I just like, I just don't think that's, I'd rather get a massage. I love that. Okay. A few questions I always ask everybody. One, do you feel successful?

And if so, why or why not? Yes. I do feel successful. I think for a couple reasons, I feel like externally, like I get a fair bit of praise and people refer to me as a successful person. So I feel like I've accrued enough evidence that even if I didn't believe it, I'm like, well, could that many people be wrong? Yeah. And then I think just there's like, even when we were talking about dating, like, I just think there's like a confidence or a calmness inside that I didn't have. that I'm like, yeah, I think I did it. You know, I don't think I'm done, but like, I, like,

yeah, but mostly I just think there's evidence. Like, I'm very like pragmatic in that way. It's like, okay, I could see. Were there a moment with Bando? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think there's been, I think from day one, I've felt successful in different ways, you know? It's tricky here because there are so many ups and downs that like one day you feel like a success story the next thing. you're like, oh my God, I've screwed this whole thing up. So no, I mean, I think all of that is a work in progress. I think like just for me personally, I think if I like saw my resume or read an article about me, I'd be like, oh, that person's successful.

So I think that's the thing I hold on to. What's the best way to spend 20 minutes every day in terms of being healthier or happier? Hmm. That is such a good question. I do a couple things that could that maybe would they would they would work to 20 minutes I make my bed every morning which is my same friend who told me about the reggae and told me great friends Ashley Stryker she is really hair stuff yeah yeah she's one of the striker sisters yeah um who I believe are my family yeah um I mean they're all glorious um and also became friends with them through the internet as well because I was like, I think I would be friends with those people and they thought they would be friends with me and we became friends. Anyway, it's a really good argument for showing who you are on Instagram in some ways.

Oh, yeah, totally. Because then you can get a vibe for people and see if you would be compatible. Yeah, you deliver on the promise. Now I'm trying to remember what the thing was that she, wait, tell me what we were making your bed every day. Yes, okay. So she suggested that years ago. And you have this crazy sense of accomplishment right out. And then you get to get into a made bed like you're in a hotel every night.

So I love that. I did, you know, 40 something years I never made my bed. Yeah. When I was a kid and my mom. Maybe I'll do that. Yeah. Oh, try it for a week. Try it for a week.

Really mindfully brushing your teeth because I am not one. I've spent years like completely denying oral hygiene. I have like a weird thing with my mouth and teeth. But I work to get over it, go to the dentist regularly, got one of the electric toothbrushes that like it's a two-minute thing. So and I just like try to commit. I can't do it every night because some nights I'm like I just want to use mouthwash and go to sleep.

I just can't even be bothered. But most mornings and nights I like really try and like mindfully just be like, I'm brushing my teeth. I'm brushing my teeth. It's interesting you do it mindfully because I brush my teeth every morning and every night and I definitely say every she gets an electric toothbrush. But I'm on my phone when I do it. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like I think there's, you know, we were talking about meditating. I think there are like you can put yourself in sort of a meditative state without like sitting cross-legged with your palms facing up and awning. So it's like a teeny opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you just like just give yourself one thought. it clears. It's just like a clearing. You know, maybe you're not like meditating on something, but you're clearing because if you're just like, brush my teeth, the way this feels on my teeth,

get, you know, it's like, so I do that. And then journaling, I feel like is like five minutes of journaling is sounds so annoying, but is like, do you give yourself prompts or do you just sort of free write? No, I just, I try and recognize when I'm having a thought that I'm going to wish I wrote down and start there and then just see if I can like flow out. I mean, you know, from writing a book, it's like you trying to like tap into wherever your flow is going to be without judgment is really hard. But for some reason, like what, well, for obvious reasons when you're journaling, it's a little bit less hard because no one else is necessarily going to read it. But, but I, but there's a lot of science behind putting words down outside of yourself to like help with your own

understanding and like recreating the way you approach things. Do you make time for it every day or do you just do it when like the urge strikes you? I'm like a teenager. So if I'm told to do something at a certain time, I won't do it. So I just kind of try and hold myself accountable. I don't do it every day, but I try and hold myself accountable to when I get that little nudge inside like you should write this down. I try and do it.

But yeah, I'm not I'm not great with that kind of accountability. What's one thing that you bought that's made your life healthier happier? Oh, what have I bought? I feel like everything I do is so service-oriented. Oh, I bought a mattress that company Tefton Needle literally changed my life. Because you just sleep so much better. Yes, it is the, I am not a paid spokesperson. person, it is literally everyone that comes to my house or like people will house sit. They're like,

what is that? I'm like, yeah, I don't know. But it like, just incredible sleep. And it like, not that I'm never, I'm always excited to get into bed, but it's just like, I don't know, you underestimate the like a mattress that really gets you, that feeling where you're just like a pillow a mattress where you just lay down and you're not like wriggling around to get comfortable. and you're not waking up with a sore back, I think was, I had a really old mattress also that needed. So when Andrew left, I was like, I should get a new mattress. I love that. I also think that bed is such a big, like, I don't worry about making my clothes organic or stuff like that. But since you're in bed for like 10 hours a day, you can make that

kind of a healthy experience. Agreed. That's half your time already, you know, which I really like. Okay. Have you ever been somewhere in the world where you're like, the people here really got it right in terms of living a healthier, happy life and if so, where? Or the most. Huh. No. I mean, I feel like I've been a lot of places where I'm like, I love it here.

It's cool. The culture is cool and the buildings are cool. But I don't, you know what? I got to be honest. I don't know if I pay attention to that when I travel. Like, I feel like when I travel, it's, I am more paying attention to like the fonts they use on signs. and like this architecture and what the food tastes like.

Do you ever go somewhere though where you're like, oh, if I like lived in this town in Italy, I would be happier. I felt that way about Paris the first time I went and it was definitely one of those places where everyone's like, you're going to love it. And I'm like, I'm going to, I won't love it because you told me I will. And I did. I remember Andrew and I being like, should we move to Paris? But I think there's just something special about that.

But I don't, I love where I live. And I think people do a really good job of trying to take care of themselves here. So I don't know that I've been blown away. But that said, I haven't been that many places. I'm sure there are many regions in the world where they're like really feel like the Netherlands or sweet. I feel like one of those areas is like always killing it. Yeah. Like education and what they serve children to eat.

But I don't know. I kind of think there are a lot of people doing a good job here. I mean, there are a lot of people not, but I think there are. Do you think L.A. is like shallow and like the stereotypes about it? I really don't. There may be pockets of that that I just don't like interact with. But I think L.A. is like a really, really deep place. Like I just feel like there's so much community here based on creativity and ideas.

is and like this pursuit of personal growth that I just don't I don't encounter that. I mean, I don't know if it's that because I'm older and I'm just like not in the, I'm not like waiting in line at a bar. Yeah. Maybe I would when I was 25. But I don't think, I don't think it's fair. But I also, that LA gets that rap. But I also think most people that come here and experience it or have moved here from

somewhere else are like, oh, it is like. a lot cooler than I thought, you know? I mean, I just, I don't, the amount of sunshine that comes here, I just feel like there's no way that that can't make people, you know, see beyond some of that stuff and just feel really good. But no, I don't think so. But also I've lived here for a really long time. So maybe it's like, if I experience other things, I'd be like, oh, maybe we are kind of shallow. But I just, I think there's a lot of depth here. So I think a lot of people here look good because they feel good, you know. I'm going to play this for my husband.

It's like my goal to convince them to show life. I know so many people that have relocated from New York and just are like so much happier. Yeah. But I do think that I'm a true believer that the weather does. Not everyone, but I'm very highly impacted by weather. Me too. And yeah, sure. I mean, I think especially with anxiety and depression, all of those things, it's like I think the sun is

underestimated. I could not agree more. Yeah. Okay. Last one. Okay. What is one big mistake you've made and what's one thing you really feel like you got right? Ha, ha, ha.

One big mistake. God, I don't know if I can think about, I think I'm more of a series, a very constant series of, like, medium to small mistakes. Like, I don't, I can't think of like. a big mistake. I also think like this probably just feeds back to my perspective. Like I think I could be like, well, buying my house was a mistake because I didn't have enough money to pay for it and I eventually lost it and lost him a lot of money in the process

or deciding to marry Andrew after knowing him for a week might have been a mistake because it ended up we didn't stay married. You know, I guess I just like, I gained so much from all of those experiences that I don't view them. And the same with like things I've done. I mean, I think like, like, Bando's a great example. It could be viewed as a mistake or as like the best thing I've ever done. It kind of depends on the day or like how you look at it.

It gave up a lot in order to do that. Maybe were those the right things to give up? I don't know. You know, I mean, the impact that we're able to have on a lot of people feels like something really good. And what we try and like put out into the world feels good. So it's certainly one of my proudest accomplishments. But yeah, I'm so bad at that kind of.

of question. I can't remember someone was asking me something once about, oh, feeling defeated. And he kept saying, and then you felt really defeated, right? And I was like, I got to tell you, like, I'm just not a person that feels defeated. It's very rare. And it's like he just like wanted me to go there. And so I feel like when I'm faced with questions like that, I'm like, I don't know what I do with those things. I'm sure if I want to write another book, I'd be like, oh, here are the seven big mistakes I made. And I can email those to you. But I do. I just. just feel like what is a mistake anyways. Right, which I think would be just from talking to you for these two hours is like that's

the thing you really got right. Like I feel like the way you are able to frame your life is so powerful and inspiring. Yeah. I'm glad to hear that. And you make me more excited about aging, honestly, than any person I've talked to. Good. I listen. On that note, I won't talk forever.

But I think living is complex and aging. There's complexity and you see a lot of things go. You know, like I can't work as hard as I used to. I can't stay up as late as I used to. I don't know why I have these pimples. I don't know why I lose words or, but it's like there is this whole other side of aging that is like the wisdom that you gain if you're paying attention is like so, cool like way cooler than all of that other stuff put together like it's just like so reassuring to

finally have a perspective on things and know that it was like very hard earned and like to be able to feel good about that like the only way that you get there is to age you know like they can't matrix matrix into the back of your neck and like give you all of that you know right so I I just I think it's something to look forward to, you know, and also just like what I was saying before, like, I mean, you're either dead or aging. So we have no choice. I know. I was like, how old can I get? Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking your time of chat. Yeah. All right. I hope you loved that episode with Jen Gotch. And I hope it provided a little respite in your day, a little, brought a little smile to your face. Hopefully, definitely share your things.

thoughts on the episode screenshot and share with me. I'm at Liz Moody. Jen is at Jen Gotch. We would both love to continue the conversation over on Instagram. And if you did love the episode, I would so appreciate if you would leave a rating or a review on iTunes. I know everybody says it, but that's because it really does make a difference for your favorite podcast. It's free, it's fast, and it's the best way to support the creators that you love, which is especially important in a time like this. Also, if you know somebody who you think might love this episode, I would deeply appreciate if you would share it with them. I would love to bring Jen's wisdom to more people in the world. And I hope it would bring a smile to their face too. So I love you all.

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