The Liz Moody Podcast - Jesse Tyler Ferguson On The Secret To Changing People’s Minds, Staying Optimistic About Social Change, Relaxing Without Alcohol, & More

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Modern Family’s Jesse Tyler Ferguson discusses the importance of empathy, dealing with rejection, his relationship secrets, raising children, living in the spotlight and more. Jesse’s secrets to confidence How he developed empathy in hindsight for his parents, which I think is a concept a lot of us could benefit from Which one of his characters is the most like him How to not get disheartened while doing activism work The secret to making people who disagree with you see your point of view His best advice for dealing with rejection and failure His secrets to relationship happiness after 10 years of marriage How he fits kids into his life, versus vice versa The ups and downs of life in the spotlight His journey to drinking less + how he relaxes without alcohol And so much more! For more from Jesse, you can find him on Instagram @jessetyler or visit his website www.jessetylerferguson.com where you can purchase his cookbook Food Between Friends and listen to his podcast Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson. To join The Liz Moody Podcast Club Facebook group, go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/thelizmoodypodcast. Ready to uplevel every part of your life? Order my new book 100 Ways to Change Your Life: The Science of Leveling Up Health, Happiness, Relationships & Success now!  This episode is sponsored by: Cymbiotika: use code LIZMOODY on cymbiotika.com to get 15% off plus free shipping on subscription orders Pique: go to piquelife.com/LIZMOODY for 15% off plus a special gift. AG1: visit drinkag1.com/lizmoody and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today.  Previous episodes referred to in this episode: What Everyone Gets Wrong About Self-Care & Burnout (+ What To Do Instead) with Dr. Pooja Lakshmin Set Better Boundaries: Overcome Uncomfortable Conversations, Spot Manipulation Red Flags, & Take Back Control Of Your Time with Melissa Urban Climate Change: What Matters, What’s Bs, And How We Can Have Hope with Dr. Katharine Wilkinson The Liz Moody Podcast cover art by Zack. The Liz Moody Podcast music by Alex Ruimy. Formerly the Healthier Together Podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Liz Moody podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and long-time journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're learning what we're getting wrong about self-care and burnout, discovering what it really means to set better boundaries, or talking about climate change and how to have hope in the face of it. And yes, those are all real episodes and they are linked in the show notes if you want to listen. Today is so exciting for two reasons.

First of all, as of today, we are officially releasing episodes every other Monday in addition to every Wednesday, so you will get extra podcasts every single month. The Monday episodes will be a little bit chatier. They'll be like celebrity interviews, advice episodes, solos, real stories of real people implementing all the expert wisdom that we get on Wednesdays. And do not worry, I know a lot of you are worried out there that the expert interviews from Wednesdays are going to go away. I promise they will not. This podcast is really based on learning and growing together, and I would never give that up. So our Wednesday expert interviews

are here Tuesday. We are adding on and we are not taking anything away. The second reason that today is so exciting is because I get to welcome the wonderful Jesse Tyler Ferguson to the podcast. You likely know Jesse as one half of everybody's favorite TV couple from Modern Family, which earned him a whopping five Emmy nominations. He is also a Tony Award-winning Broadway legend, a cookbook author, and he has starred in numerous movies, TV shows, and even a Taylor Swift music video. He also hosts his own amazing podcast, Dinner's On Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson, where he sits down with people like Mandy Moore, Elizabeth Banks, and Kristen Bell, over a delicious meal and glass of wine for candid conversations.

He's also just an incredibly lovely human being. In this episode, we get into Jesse's secrets to confidence, how he developed empathy in hindsight for his parents, which I think is a concept a lot of us could benefit from and will probably resonate with a lot of people. It really resonated with me. Which one of his characters is the most like him? How to not get disheartened while doing activism work. The secret to making people you disagree with see your point of view.

His best advice for dealing with rejection and failure. his secrets to relationship happiness after 10 years of marriage. How he fits kids into his life versus vice versa. The ups and downs of life in the spotlight. His journey to drinking less, plus how he relaxes without alcohol, and so much more. As always, we would both love to hear your thoughts as you're listening. So definitely screenshot and tag us on Instagram. I am at Liz Moody and Jesse is at Jesse Tyler.

And if you love this episode, if you love getting to see this side of Jesse or hearing his story or his words and his wisdom, please send a link to a friend. It is the best way to support the show. Okay, let's get right into it with Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Jesse, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Liz. So I would love to start with your childhood. From the stories that I have heard you tell, your childhood didn't exactly breed confidence.

You talk about being bullied a lot. You talk about being in the D group of like a performing arts group. They ranked you A to D or F. Okay. So you weren't in the middle. You weren't in the last. Okay. I'm curious though because you've had so many big wins since then.

You've won a Tony. You've become an incredibly successful actor. Did confidence come from those wins or did you have an internal confidence journey along the way? You know, I was just talking about this the other day, and I really do feel like I was in a place where I had that internal confidence, even though there was nothing from the outside world that was supporting that. Like, there was nothing that was going on that was saying, yes, you're on the right track. Do good, do more. Go to New York. Go to acting school. But I had this fire within me that was just, I knew that I could do it. And I honestly wish I could give you the reason why that fire was turning within me, but I don't know. I guess it's like what passion really is when you know you have a passion for something.

And you can't always explain like why you have a deep desire to do something. I just knew that performing for me and embodying other characters and just that act of producing art was so important to me that I didn't necessarily need people saying, yes, yes, you're really good at this. Because I just felt like it was something that I had to do. Thank God I ended up being good at it. You know, I could have gone the other way. And there are people who have a passion for it, but then can't really make it work for themselves. And it's because you do have to have the talent, but it's also a lot of luck. And there's a lot of things that have to come into it.

But I think back, and I'd never had speaking roles in any of my community theater productions that I was doing. And I was always in the ensemble or the chorus, which, you know, yes, they work hard too. But, like, I wasn't given any sort of, like, opportunity to show what I could do as a leading player. And it wasn't until I was 21 years old and I was being offered my first professional job that I was actually given my first speaking part. and it was being given to me by a Tony Award winning director.

So it took me a while to actually have that boost of confidence. It is sort of a bizarre thing when I think back on it and think about my parents, like, letting me go to New York. Or you even taking the step to move to New York, which is really, really, really scary. I feel like there's a lot of people out there. I come from a smaller town and who have these big dreams and they want to take these steps and they can't kind of talk themselves into doing it. Do you remember that moment at all? Yeah. It's so interesting because I definitely knew I would always end up in New York, even though at the time that I told myself I'd go to New York, I had never been to New York, actually. I just had this idea of what New York was. And I think a lot of it was from just like watching the Tony Awards on television. I knew Broadway was there and I knew that's what I wanted to do. I was consuming myself and what they produced. So they had all the CDs and the cassette tapes, really, if I'm aging myself properly, the cassette tapes and the records. And I would listen to them nonstop. And every year I'd watch the Tony Awards. But I'd

knew that New York had something for me, and I just felt like I was not going to get that thing that I needed in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I think a lot of it also, for me, was knowing that I was queer and gay, and I didn't feel like I had a family and a support system in Albuquerque. I didn't feel at home there. And even when I would go to, like, my theater classes, which were extracurricular, they weren't part of my school program. You know, it was a community theater program that was separate from my school, but I always felt very at home with the theater kids in a ways I didn't feel at home with any of the people I went to school with in my grade school and high school. And so I felt like I knew that New York was going to be full of more

of those types of people and I needed to be near them to really make myself feel like I could be the best version of who I was. Yeah, it's almost nice in some ways when your dream lives in a certain place and you can picture your dream only coming true in that place. Yeah. It makes it a little bit easier, I feel like. Yeah, for sure. Even though I didn't really know what the reality of living that place was. Oh, I didn't either.

I pretended I lived in New York for all of high school. So I moved out from Arizona to Modesto, this town in California. And I told everybody I moved there not from Arizona, but from New York. And my biggest fear was that this like shows a lot about my headspace at the time. I was like, when my E-True Hollywood story comes out, everybody will find out that I'm not really from New York City. But I had like the tiniest bit of knowledge of New York, too. I was like, oh, and when I was in Central Park and the Rockefeller Center, it's interesting that it's this place we all have a dream about because we see it in the movies and we see it on TV. I've heard you say that you have a lot of empathy in hindsight for your parents.

Can you talk to me about that? I feel like there's a lot of people out there who struggle with how their parents treated them during their childhood and are maybe working to find that empathy. Sure. I still get very frustrated when I think back on my time growing up and wish that, you know, maybe things have been handled differently. But at the same time, I didn't think a lot of this is because now I'm a parent. And it's just impossible to always do the exact thing that your kids want you to do. It's just impossible. I also was born in 1975 and we were in a very conservative state. And I look at what they were surrounded by and what sort of challenges I presented. to them. You know, I was a very different type of kid and they obviously only wanted the best for me, but they also didn't really fully have all the tools to communicate with me properly and to give me what I needed. And I just feel like everyone is owed the opportunity to grow and change. And I remember having a conversation with my dad when I was in my late teens, early 20s, and he was sort of still struggling with me being gay and, you know, came to me with the answer of like,

This is not how I was raised and it's harder for me. And I just said to him, Dad, you know, you have so many more years ahead of you to say that you're a fully formed human being at this age when you still could maybe be around for 40 more years is just such a disservice to you. Like, everyone has the ability to grow and change. And I do feel that that's true. But I also can't fault them for where they came from either. And I think a lot of the empathy that I have for them is empathy that I discovered after

they showed that they are also willing to change. I love that because I think sometimes we're so interested in changing ourselves. We're like, oh, I'll read these books. I'll listen to these podcasts. I'll have these thoughts. But then we trap people, especially, I think, our parents in like the one version of themselves. And I like that not only did you not do that, but you reminded your dad that he didn't have to trap himself in that version of himself either.

Yeah. Was there anything that was helpful for them in that evolution? Like that I helped them with? Yeah. I mean, if you ask them, they'd probably say that they were frustrated by me. I don't know if I helped them at all. I do think that success in seeing me do the thing that I love doing made it easier for them to sort of accept things.

I do attribute my ability to be successful in the field that I wanted to be successful in is a tool that they were able to like then relax a little bit. And obviously I understand this. Like, you just want your children to succeed and be protected and have the easiest life possible, even though no one's going to have the easiest life as possible. Everyone's going to have these roadblocks and have things that they need to overcome. I think that they were just worried that me being gay was going to hurt my career. Doors weren't going to open. I think it was also at the middle of like the AIDS crisis. And so, you know, they were worried about like what that

meant for me like physically. And that's a very real thing. I was not a promiscuous kid. I was like, you have to do things in order to like put yourself in danger. And I'm just not really that type of But I wasn't equipped to like tell them that. I didn't need to like have that conversation with them. So I think just seeing me settle into who I was and being okay with who I was gave them cues to sort of follow the lead. Were you worried that being gay would impact your chance of success in the world? I think maybe initially, you know, it was also the time when a lot of people were in the closet and not talking about their personal lives because they were afraid that they would create. pre-conceived notions of who they are and thus limit the type of roles that they might be able to play specifically as an actor and a front-facing person in the entertainment industry. But also while I

was sort of becoming more successful, it was also the time that people were starting to be more honest with who they were and people were coming out of the closet. So I came up in a very interesting time. Like at the beginning of my career, it was definitely a thing where you kind of were encouraged to stay quiet. And I even had some agents and managers who they didn't directly say that you need to keep that part of your life private, but like there were enough cues there that I sort of understood what was being said between the lines. And then also I was starting to witness people who were successful, you know, starting to be more honest with who they were, starting with like Ellen DeGeneres. And I think she opened the floodgates for other people

to start coming out of the closet and, you know, Lance Bass and, you know, Patrick Harris and all these people are contemporaries. He's also from New Mexico. Also from New Mexico, correct. Yes. New Mexico's hometown heroes. Yeah, it's so interesting. I just watched Anne Juliet on Broadway. Have you seen that? I haven't seen it. It's so fun.

It's so fun. But it has very prominent non-binary characters. And I was watching it and I was like, I don't think this musical would have been made even five years ago. Or would have made differently. Yeah. Or it had been made incredibly differently. And I was like, I wonder if actors are frustrated that like they came up in a time where this wasn't even an option. for them or if they're just like happy that this is where we are now?

I mean, I can only speak for myself. I'm incredibly happy that this is where we are now. And I think that it pushes growth within the industry. I mean, when modern family started, it was a very exciting thing. It was a revolutionary thing that there was this gay couple on television that was in a committed relationship. And the very first scene that you met them, they were bringing home their adopted baby. And like, you were in the midst of a relationship.

And then being new parents was like probably the most interesting thing about them. And being gay was fifth or six on the list. and watching them sort of struggle with the things that everyone struggles with when they're new parents. I think about if you tried to make that show now, and Eric Stone Street has been very open about this. He's like, I don't know if I would have been cast because he's straight in real life. And so he's like, I don't know if I would have been the actor that they would have gone to. And I'm like, you know, Eric, I don't know either. I think, you know, we're in a place now where I feel like maybe that wouldn't have happened.

And I look at trans actors who are being given opportunity now and being nominated for Emmy Awards. And I'm so excited that that's happening. I also feel like those successes are also pushing the industry to be more open-minded and to look for talent in all these different pools, especially when they're looking for people to represent the stories that they want to tell. If you're telling a trans story, like, there are so many great trans actors out there who are just not being discovered because they're not being given opportunity. And I love that the industry is really pushing itself to be better about that and be more open to looking for the people that can tell those stories authentically. And there's still also so much work to be done, too. But for me, I'm excited that there are these opportunities for people and these stories are being told and there is representation.

I'm not wishing that that happened earlier. I'm just happy that it happened at all. How do you feel about the idea of Eric playing your husband on the show? I've answered this question a few times, but I always answered a little differently because, you know, you have to understand that Eric and I are very, very, very close friends. and I spent 11 years of my life doing one of the most meaningful things of my entire career thus far with him. And also, I was cast before Eric was. He loves when I tell everyone that, but I was. And so I got to do chemistry reads with several different actors for the role of cam.

I tested with all different types of people, all different ethnicities, some were gay, some were straight, different shapes and sizes and ages. And Eric just really popped. We had chemistry. And you know, when you're putting a show together, that's what's really most important. And I don't think anyone would wish that Mitch was with a different person than that cam or that version of cam. I think the audience fell in love with that couple. And so that's just case and point. Like I think we were the right people to tell that story. And I do feel that if you're putting the show together today that maybe they would have said, okay, we have to find another gay actor for this part.

And they probably would have eventually found someone wonderful. But in that moment, Eric was the right person for the part. And I don't wish that he was someone else. And I can't imagine doing that experience with anyone other than him. Yeah. It's an interesting thing, too, because are we also talking about queer people being played by straight people? Are we also talking about queer people playing straight people? You know what I mean?

Is it the people that have been traditionally marginalized that we're trying to be like, let's bring them into the equation? Or are we saying it should match with how you identify? I don't think it should match with how you identify. Because I'm an actor and I want to play all different types of parts. And I don't identify it with half the roles I play. And I want to be able to play those parts. I think that there is opportunities for people to tell the stories that they live. Like, I think that we need to be better about letting trans people tell trans stories.

I think we've gotten past the point where, like, there are gay people that play straight parts. And like, I think we're a little bit more forgiving. But we need to do better. We need to continue to look for opportunities for specifically the trans community. And we are doing better. I mean, you look at shows like Heartstopper and Euphoria. And there's some really wonderful actors who have emerged. And that's just a sign that, like, it's okay to let these people tell their own stories.

For me, I think it's about representation. And for the queer people to actually be up for these parts. I think there was a time when there were queer stories that were being told they were just being handed to straight actors without even any of the queer community being given the opportunity to read for them and be considered for them. And I think we're slowly changing, but we can always do better. Who do you feel like you are most similar to that you've played? I mean, Mitch in Modern Family was really just a version of me. I brought myself to the audition, and it was just a very easy, like, Eric really had to, like, he embodied his mother and, like, get to, like, find things to, like, connect to play that part. And I just showed up. I mean, I really just showed up. So it's so funny because all these shows will obviously be criticized and because they're popular and you hear more criticism when you get more popular. But, you know, people who say that Mitch or Cam, but mostly Mitch, you know, is a stereotype. I'm like, well, it really was just me. So, you know, I guess there you go. I'm a little bit of a stereotype of what it is to be a gay man.

But, yeah, I definitely related to him a lot. Is it hard? You play these roles that are incredibly long-running. Mitch was 11 years, right? And then you also do these Broadway shows where you're like putting on a character every single day, sometimes twice a day. Is it hard to be like, who am I? Who is Jesse Tyler Ferguson amongst all of that?

See, I like to find ways to infuse myself into these characters and infuse things that are familiar with me into these characters. to find moments of truth. And then from there, I can, like, build on that. I've never been the type of actor that needs to, like, sit in a dark space and, like, let go of the character. Like, I can pretty much, you know, let it go. And so it does feel like when I step onto stage or step in front of a camera, I can

click into that thing I need to do. But then there's also times where, like, I did this movie, this really silly movie that I loved being a part of called Cocaine Bear. Cocaine Bear is a classic movie. Is that a little silly movie? Thank you for saying that. I think so, too. There was a wig involved and I had to shave my beard and I gave myself a mustache and like there was an accent.

I had to take a little bit more time to sort of discover who that guy was and like how does he walk and how does he behave? And, you know, in my mind, he was straight. Who knows what the audience thinks that there was no plot point that suggested otherwise. He was a little bit different for me and I definitely needed to, you know, find him a little bit more. But I think that there were elements within him that felt very familiar as well. Is there anything that you've learned about yourself that has surprised you via playing one of your characters? It's more the personal relationships. And like, I've always been surprised by the type of people I can connect to, people that feel very different for me. I just did this play on Broadway take

me out. And I was the only gay cast member in the show playing a gay character. And I became so close with this group of straight guys. And I think, you know, if you put us all in a room, we'd struggle to, like, figure out, like, what our commonality was. But over the course of, you know, the year and a half that I got to know them. I just found a real kinship with them. And that sort of surprised me. It opened up the idea of being able to find commonality between people, whether they seem incredibly different from me or not. I mean, Jesse Williams has become one of my favorite people in the world. I've met him several times before doing this play with him. We've always had perfectly kind interactions, but now I feel like he's one of my closest friends. Like,

I just, I adore him. And that came from spending time with him and getting to know him on a deeper level and that was because of the play. It's so interesting because you're taking this group of people and you're asking them to perform empathy essentially as a career. You're like tap into this person, tap into this person, tap into this person, tap into this person. And then of course they're going to be able to hopefully understand all these different human experiences. Like that is part of the job.

And it's interesting that I hadn't thought about that in that way. Is there a way you think other people can. mimic that openness and that acceptance that you've learned. We have so many differences in this country right now and so many people who are like, I couldn't even have a conversation with that person without wanting to scream. And you just had this experience where you're like, I don't know if these are my people. And they're like, oh, wait, actually, there's a lot of parts of them that are my people. Is there any way that we could tap into that without doing a play from no, you have to do a play. You have to do a Broadway play in order to tap into that. No, I think

between any two people, there's a kernel of commonality. And so it's finding what that is. And I think it takes patience, but also it takes effort on both people to figure out what that thing is. And I think it's a matter of like listening and not judging. And that's really hard. It can be really hard, especially when you know you're talking about things, you know, have a deep difference with. But, you know, I'm always very grateful for the friendships and the relationships that I find amongst people that seem incredibly different from me because they end up being some of the most fruitful relationships I have because it took effort to create that relationship, but also then from them, I learned so much because there's so much difference between us. And oftentimes the disagreement is what

enriches the relationship as well in a weird way. I know you do a lot of activism work too. Do you think that a key part of successful activism is that ability to, you know, get into somebody else's head, get into somebody else's perspective, and really listen to them? Yeah, I do. I mean, I advocated for marriage equality with my husband, you know, when we were trying to get national support for marriage equality, and we were going to different states where it was on the ballot, and we were meeting with the lawmakers, and we were just having a very honest conversation about how much the word marriage means to us. And almost everyone understood as they were sitting in front of us that we should not be denied that happiness. We're a loving couple and we're

good people and we deserve to be with one another. But then, you know, they're like, but, you know, when I'm talking to the people I represent, you know, and so there's always a but and that was where it became frustrating because it's like, but I know that you are telling me right now that there's nothing wrong between us, but you're deciding that you're representing people who might have something to say about this union. And so that became very frustrating. But at the same time, I was grateful that they were willing to sit down with us and talk openly about what they felt. And I feel like that was a step forward. Just like hearing them say, this is, you know, something I hope for, but I'm also representing other people.

It's very frustrating. It's why I don't understand how anyone could be a politician because you have to sort of put your own feelings aside and represent the whole. But I think that it was a very eye-opening experience seeing people who were struggling with that themselves. you know, what they wanted to do personally versus like what they feel like they have to represent amongst their constituents. It is frustrating that it feels like having a personal touch point is the single biggest thing that changes people's minds. But you can't just be like, well, we'll send a happy queer couple to every family in America and have them be best friends. Which is kind of what modern family was doing, though, in a lot of ways. Because this couple was entering living rooms and was in kind of a Trojan horse way.

and it was like wrapped in a very funny accessible, digestible package. And it was amongst other characters that were safe, you know, very nuclear family. And a beautiful Colombian woman who was with a former beloved TV father from, you know, married with children. It was accessible. And I do know that there are people who change in our minds because of Mitch and Cam. And because, you know, they're like, I didn't know, I don't have any gay friends, but I do have Mitch and Cam. And they're people I love. And I would not deny them the happiness of being made.

married and they were thrilled when we did get married on the show. And I think that it changed their hearts in a lot of ways. So I'm very proud of that work that Modern Family did. And that's sort of like always kind of been my MO, even when I'm doing my activism work, because I'm not the type of guy to grab a bullhorn and stand on a box and like yell at people in Union Square. That's not my style. I appreciate the people who can do that, but I'm not looking to be arrested, just not me. I like to come at it in a more gentle way. And so in a way, modern family was an extension of that activism, being able to portray that character on TV. Look, I'm never going to make everything that I wear organic, but your sheets, your pillows, your comforter are literally touching your skin for eight hours every single night.

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That's exactly right. Yeah, I think that's so interesting. I know a lot of people and myself included who really want to be more involved in activism, more involved in creating the change that we want to see in the world. But it is so disappointing when you're taking these big steps forward. And I think we've experienced this with gay rights in our country. We're like, oh my gosh, we did it. Yay.

Everything's great. And then it's like, what? We don't know. It's not as secure as you thought. How do you deal with the mental health? journey that is caring so deeply about these things and fighting for them. Yeah, I think that's when I really lean on my community and other people who are in the fight with me to pull me through those times.

And I think we take turns like pulling each other through them. When I was deeply frustrated initially with just fighting for marriage equality, I looked toward people who had been in the fight for a long time, some of my elders who already knew that you take a few steps forward. you're going to take a few steps back. It's never easy. And they were sort of energized and ready for the fight in a way that I wasn't because they'd been through it before. And so I have to remind myself that I'm just learning, like, I'm going to be that energizing force for the younger generation and to be like, okay, I've been through this. I know how it works. Like, you can't get

frustrated now. This is just part of the process. And I've learned from people who are older than me and now I'm here to teach you. Like, I feel like you have to find those people who have walked in those shoes and and look to them for strength. We're here for each other because we're in the same fight together. So is what they're saying that it's not an obstacle to the process? It's part of the process. Yeah. That is part of the journey. Yeah. That's annoying. It is. But like you look at anything, any type of change and that's what it is. I mean, there's never a flat, easy road. Yeah, I know. It's just you're out there like you feel like you've made it to the top of the mountain. They're like, oh, there's another peak or like you stumble back away. But it is actually helpful to be.

like, well, that is how change has happened over the course of history. It's true. That's interesting. An interesting part of being an actor as well is that you have these big wins, but you also have these big losses. How do you deal with the rejection of it all? I mean, it really is practice. And I'm curious, like, both on like, oh, I really wanted this role.

But also, do you get depressed when you go to like the Emmys and you don't win? Or you just like, I'm happy to be here. Like, I get to go to a fun party. A little bit of both. Part of being an actor is just developing a very thick skin. You know, my husband has started to work in the entertainment industry, and he's a lawyer. He studied musical theater when he was at UCLA, but then he switched gears and he became a lawyer, and he worked a lot in activism.

He helped me develop my nonprofit. And then he has started to produce things, and usually he's producing a lot of queer stories and things that are meaningful to him, but also he's producing some Broadway shows that he loves and, you know, things that are of lighter fare. and he gets really frustrated when things take a long time to get off the ground. And I'm like, this is where you can really look to me because I've been in this business now for 25 years. And I know when I started off as a 21-year-old kid, like I had a thin skin. These things felt monumental when they fell through. And you just have to know that they're not. And my career

proves that. Like, I've been okay. But those losses at the beginning of my career felt really, really substantial and felt like, I'm not going to bounce back from this. This was my one big thing. If I don't get this thing, like, who knows? Like, how am I going to get to the next level? And I did. I got to the next step and the next level and the next part of my career. It's a really hard lesson to learn. But this business is incredibly difficult.

And yes, I was nominated for five Emmy Awards and lost every single one of them. And sometimes I lost them to my own co-stars. Is that worse or better? I mean, it's felt the same because the five I've been nominated for. I lost two to Eric Stone Street, two to Tyboreau, and went to Tony Hale, who I also admire greatly. So it's not like I was losing them to hacks. If it was for someone who I didn't think was maybe very good or like kind of just got lucky, I'd maybe feel a little bit more of a sting. But all those categories were filled with people who I really admired. So for me, it really was like,

oh gosh, I'm in the same room as these people and I'm being mentioned in the same breath. However, that being said, when it was like the fifth nomination, I was like, okay, maybe this will be my time. And when it was, it did sting a little bit more. I don't remember being disappointed at all when I lost that first one to Eric Stone Street. I remember. crying for him. I was so happy. And then by the fifth time, I was like, okay, well, jokes on me now. Like, should I keep showing up here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, you know, years later, I won a Tony award, which actually was something I dreamed about winning when I was a kid. And I never dreamed that I'd even be nominated for an Emmy. But like a Tony Award was something like I made that

acceptance speech in the mirror, specifically for a Tony Award. Not for an Oscar, not for a Grammy, not for an Emmy, but for a Tony Award. And so I had all those losses and then I had this great win. And so, like, I've learned to not put too much emphasis on those things. It's just not important. And, like, the Tony Award, as meaningful as it was to me, did not change my life, to not make me a better actor, did not open the door for, like, opportunity that I wouldn't have had otherwise. It's something that I love looking at. And I was like, wow, I really achieved that thing. But it doesn't define who I am.

I want to talk about that, too, because I do think that there is this perception. Like, if I got a TV show, I'd be happy. If I got a Tony, I would be happy. if I had this much money I would be happy. Have those things made you happy? They're not the reason for my happiness, no. Other things have made me happy. Then they make me really happy in the moment.

And certainly, you know, I remember when I landed Modern Family, it was like, oh my God, I wanted this job so badly, and it's so wonderful. And I was ecstatic, and I was so happy. And it was a job that made me incredibly happy for 11 years. But I'm not less happy now that the show's ended. I'm excited for the next opportunity. and things like expanding my family and having a loving relationship that's lasted. We celebrate our 10 year anniversary not too long ago.

That is a huge milestone for me. Like those things really make me so happy. And so the things I get to do in conjunction with that, like my career, I think, are just an added bonus. But there is a thing of like, oh, if I just had this much money or I had this type of house or I lived in this. And I still think that. I'm like, oh gosh, if I had a vacation home in Montecito, then I'd really be done. But like, I know that that wouldn't make me happy.

That would just be a honestly, probably just another property I have to worry about. Well, and isn't it interesting that I think people would look at you and be like, surely he doesn't still think that. And the fact that you do shows that it truly is like a hedonic treadmill. Like it's called the hedonic treadmill for a reason, which is that we are never satisfied. You are not going anywhere. If that is what you think will make you happy, it's just never going to work that way. And I also find particularly those specific.

moments that we pin our dreams on are almost always disappointing because they're so fleeting. I feel like I pin my entire happiness on when I published a book. And then I published a book and I was like, okay. That's great. I'm so proud of myself. That's great. But it's so fleeting. It's this teeny tiny moment.

And then you wake up two weeks later and you're the exact same person. That's right. You know? And then there's a different type of grappling that has to happen after that where you're like, well, how. Will I find happiness now if I've been pursuing this one goal thinking that would make me happy for years? Right. I think looking that far ahead, it could be really daunting and depressing a little bit, thinking like, oh, gosh, I don't know how I'm going to find.

That's where it's like, you know, you have to create that happiness within yourself and the relationships that you keep and find other ways that are not so materialistic that will make you happy. But, you know, those things should make you happy. Writing a book is a huge achievement. I wrote a cookbook and I was like, this is really exciting. Cookbooks are hard too. books are hard. But I love that I have this physical thing that I can give to people if I want or like to show people and create from still. I love that it exists. But it certainly doesn't change who I am before I wrote the cookbook. It's just another thing that I've been able to make.

And so, you know, in that respect, I'm very proud of it. And it still makes me very happy because it's still around. It's like a thing that I made. How do you develop that thick skin? Like, is it just getting rejected over and over and over and over? Yeah, which is horrible. Yeah, that's really annoying too. There are tools that I have to help me through those times. Like if I audition for something, I really truly try and not think about it anymore. Well, case in point.

Okay, so Modern Family, when I was auditioning for that, Ty Borel always tells me, because we tested for the network at the same audition block. So we were out in the hallway with all these other people auditioning for Mitches and Phil's. And, like, he remembers me. And it was at the audition where you basically go in and you perform for the network. it's like the big step before you get the role. They have to prove you. And Ty remembers me like reading the New York Times and just sort of like casually looking over the Sunday Times and I was just reading, you know, whatever.

And I did not seem nervous. I wasn't looking at my sides or my materials for the audition. And Ty was like pacing the hallway. And that was the audition where I ended up booking it. And Ty actually did not book it on that session and like had to go back in several more times. He kept to ask me like, how were you so cool in that? situation. I was like, well, I knew that I had other opportunities that I was focusing on as well. And if I didn't get this, it wasn't the end of the world. But deep down inside, I really, really wanted it.

So I had to force myself to remind myself that there was other things that would happen. And it was really difficult because it was a very important job. But I knew that it wouldn't be the end of me or the beginning of me. Like, it was just another like part of the road. And if it was meant to be, it'd be meant to be. But I had to talk myself into those situations. It's such a powerful perspective and it just feels like such a superpower that you have it. And I'm just like, how do you have that? Because I feel like I can tell myself that until the end of time, but I'm still like, this is it. This is make or break for you. Like you need to get this. Yeah. Like I said, I've been in this business for 25 years and I feel like all of the things that I've done are things

that I feel like I was really meant to do. And I just trust that that will continue to happen. And it's also so exhausting to worry about it. Like, I just don't want to do it. It really, it's too much work. No, it's such a good point, too, that, like, if I added up the amount of time that I spent worrying that made absolutely no difference in the outcome, it's a horrifying number. And it made no difference in the outcome. I just spent my energy on it anyways.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Did it annoy you at all that your husband won a Tony first? Before me? Yeah. It did. He knows it did. It's so funny because when he won one, he's won two, but at this point,

but I had never even been nominated at that point. I'd been to business at that point for like 20 years. I can't believe on your first outing, you are a recipient of a Tony Award for producing. It really pisses me off. But I was so happy for him. It was a dream of his as well. And he like never dreamed. I mean, that was truly a dream. He set aside, like, I will never, like, what am I going to win a Tony Award for? And then there he was, accepting one. And so I was thrilled for him. But we did joke about it. And he has told me since he's like, I do feel like winning one for acting, Trump's winning for producing.

Okay. Well, at least we got that. At least we're on the same page there. What are your secrets to relationship happiness as you are your 10th anniversary? I think knowing that there's always growth, we're always going to change just a couple. And to be okay with that, we went through some really hard times. The first few years were difficult because, like, we were just, you know, a new married couple. and I feel like we're figuring what it means to be married a couple up.

We're figuring that out together and allowing each other to change and grow and meet each other in the middle and be able to give space for growth. I think that's really important. I mean, Justin just went to the Hoffman Institute. I'm going to that. I'm so excited. You should be. What was his experience? He planned to go like a year ago.

And he actually planned to go kind of in spite of me because we had just had our second child. And I was still doing my play in New York. And so he was home with a newborn and a toddler. And I was coming home on the weekends and on my days off, but like not every day off. Like I'd come home every two weeks and sort of check in, but then I'd be gone again. And so I was living this life in New York. And he was with this newborn. And he was like, I'm doing something for myself.

I'm signing up for the Hoffman Institute as I've been wanting to go for a while. So he signed up for like a year later. And when the time came, he's kind of told me, he's like, oh, yeah, I signed up for this thing. And I forgot I'd even sign up for it. But I did it because I was sort of annoyed with the university. for being away. And then he got to do this thing. And you know, you have to like unplug for a full week, no phone. And it's sort of an immersive therapy experience is how I describe it. Yeah, exactly. The work that you do there is really equivalent to almost like a year of therapy. He came back so,

I mean, he was changed in so many ways. And that, you know, every person has things that they're working through and wanting to be better about. And a lot of the things that I think were things that we found difficult in our relationship, he also was able to work through. And I've benefited a lot just from him going to the Hoffman Institute. But he's all part of the evolution and change of him. And, you know, I was so thrilled that he got to have that experience. And I'm also reaping some benefits from it and like learning about it as well and wondering if I'm going to go for myself. And I don't know. I just feel like giving each other that space to do those things that mean something. And there's a lot of jobs that I do that. I feel like I need to do this job,

even though it's not a ton of money for myself and to remind myself why I'm an artist. And he gives me the space to do those things. Even though I'm not bringing home a ton of money for the family, it's important for me to remind myself that I am an actor and I've had a dry spell and I need to do this thing. And so I think it's a matter of being malleable. Are there any specific tools you guys rely on like a check-in once a week or anything like that that that's actually you've seen benefits from or boundaries or a date night or anything like that? We've always been very good at that. That's really important. And we do this with our toddler and we'll do it with our younger son when he's old enough. But, you know, we all tell each other we're thankful for every morning and grateful for and then try and end the day with something good that happened to us. Justin and I started doing it just the two of us. And we've now incorporated our oldest son Beckett. So that's been lovely. And sometimes it's the same thing. The same things I'm grateful for today. The same thing I was grateful for yesterday. But it's nice to hear them. And it's a moment to shed some light on to like.

what we're thinking, what we're feeling. I also love that it's shared. I think that the journaled gratitude practice is caught on a lot, but I love the idea of letting your husband know. Like, I'm grateful for this thing in our lives. I feel like that must be a really beautiful amplification of a gratitude practice. Absolutely. Okay, let's talk about the kids thing.

Yeah. I do a series on this podcast called the pros and cons of having kids because I'm kind of trying to decide if I want to do that whole thing. And I'm curious particularly. Let's start with you and Justin are both super, super, super, super, busy. I look at my life now and I'm like, I literally don't have time to do all the things that I want to do every single day, much less add in an entire human being that seems like a full-time job. Like it seems like definitely a full-time job to have a human child.

Yes. How does that work? Well, I'll just speak for myself. We have family that's close to us. And so like they step in a lot. We do have a nanny that helps us out a lot. We had a night nurse so that I could continue working and Jessica could continue working. We could sleep through the night. So we put things in place for us. Those things cost money.

Obviously, obviously the family members don't. I don't pay my mother-in-law to take care. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we have a support system, and we call on our friends when we need them to help out, and so we can continue to work and do the things that makes us happy. But I do think reminding ourselves when we start to feel guilty about, okay, we're doing all these things that are making us happy. Like we're taking time away from spending time with our kids. First of all, we spend tons of time with our kids. I had to remind myself, like we are their parents. We live with them and we're there 24-7. But also them seeing that we're doing things that make us happy is a lesson for them as well because we want them to also do things that make them happy and choose themselves at times. It's also obviously important to be empathetic and to do things for other people, but it's also important to do the things that make you happy. It's a little bit more difficult with a three-and-a-half-year-old because the things that make them happy sometimes are things that you need them to break habits of like, you know, just eat.

eating chocolate all the time or whatever. Like there are parameters there. But it's hard. It is really hard. And everyone's different. And so, I mean, I don't know the situation that turns. You have a partner or? I have a partner.

And we have family around. But it's just like, would I still have time to like lay? Yeah. You know what I mean? It's important time to lay. Like it's like I feel like the parents I know they can have me time. Yes. But it's planned me time.

It's like, oh, I have a date night. So I got a babysitter, et cetera. And I'm like, I just want. to lay on the couch sometimes at 2 p.m. You know? Just make sure your baby's napping at 2 p.m. And then you can do it. It's just the always being responsible for another human being. Sounds terrifying. How did you guys know when you were ready? Well, it is interesting because for us, we just didn't like accidentally get pregnant. Like we had to really be like, okay, now we're doing it. Let's do this. Let's put all the pieces into the play. Justin, when we got married, he said,

I want at least five years being married before we start to have a family. And I was like, okay. I thought you were going to say, I want at least five children. I was like, whoa. Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, my God. Can you imagine? I want at least five years before we started a family.

And five years came and went. And then I sort of had to start pressing him and be like, well, I'm 10 years older. And did you always know you wanted kids? I don't think I had that aspiration because, again, growing up in the late 70s, early 80s, I didn't know a lot of gay couples who were married, much less having children. And for Justin, who's 10 years younger than me, I think he sort of saw that starting to happen and had that aspiration for himself. But once I found myself with him and with someone that I felt like would be a good father

as well and a co-parent, I started dreaming those things for myself for sure. When we finally pulled the trigger, it was sort of like I was the one to be like, okay, this has to happen in the next few years if we're going to do it because I'm only getting older and I don't want to be a super old dad. I don't want to be super late in my father. And then it was a series of meetings that we had to take. And there was a lot of pieces that we had to get organized for a donor and a surrogate and all that stuff. That alone also takes a long time.

We knew we had a little bit of a buffer. But yeah, it never feels like the right time. I guess I could say that because we always felt like, oh, God, what we're actually doing this is feel scary. I don't think there's any parent who doesn't feel that way. What's good about it? It's that unconditional love that I am still surprised by. I love my husband so much, but it is a different type of love with their kids, just because they are so young and they depend on you so much. He's so funny in ways that I like, I didn't even imagine a kid could be.

This morning he was playing with his trucks. We had this sort of semi-truck that's also a carrying case for small little hot wheels cars. And he was putting all the cars into this bigger truck. And he was like, come on, play this game with me. I was like, what's the game called? And he said, the game's called Broadway show. makes no sense at all, but he hears me talk about Broadway shows all the time. So, like, he incorporated the name Broadway show. Like, I couldn't believe that that's where his imagination

had gone. And he keeps me interested and curious. He teaches me a lot. Like, seeing the world through his eyes reminds me what a lucky thing it is that I get to be alive in this time. He reminds me for the good things. It's really hard to not have to remember all the good things that are happening in this world when there's so much bad and so many horrible things are happening. he forces me to look at the positive things in life. I really like that. That's like a really good answer to that question. Thanks.

There's so many studies that say that your relationship with your partner gets worse when you have children. Do you think that's true? And I'm also curious, do you think that in a queer relationship you have an advantage because you're not fighting against these predefined gender roles that have existed for hundreds of years about like mothering is this? fathering is this. You know, maybe. I don't know. I mean, I can only speak from the experience I've had, and we certainly don't have those preconceived notions. However, there are tropes we fall into, like, I'm a better cook, so I'm doing most of the cooking, and he's better at planning, so he does most of that stuff and, like, creates the schedules for playtimes with other kids, and that's sort of his expertise. So we do have jobs that we've sort of fallen into.

And there are times when I think he resents me maybe for like not being able to like plan a schedule as well as he can. But I've like, you do it so much better than I do. And like I make better meals than you do because you're just not great in the kitchen. And as far as like our relationship getting worse, I think it definitely brings up more things to get into fights about. But it also has taught us how to be better communicators. I personally think our relationship has only gotten better with kids.

I think that we are more happy. I think it takes the focus off of just feeling like, okay, you're my only one. And like knowing that my husband also loves me, but also these other two people that we've created together, I don't know, it makes me feel more taking care of in a weird way. It's these two people that we both equally love and we want to see thrive. And I think joint projects like that are always good for a couple. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually take the steps to make eating healthier easier. That's where Marley Spoon comes in.

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It's a great concept. It is a great concept. Every new parent feels that, whether they verbalize that or not, they feel that, they want that for themselves. Is that really going to be the situation? No. No. It never will be. But it's great to like aspire to that.

Can you explain what that means? What that meant? Yeah. For us, it meant that we still wanted to have the careers that we had. We wanted to be able to travel. We wanted to be able to still do the things that we enjoy doing just with kids. And yes, we still can do all those things. We just can't do it as often.

We can't do it at the drop of a hat. We can't do it without more planning. but we can still see the world. We can bring our kids with us. We can still do things that make us happy in our careers. We just sometimes have to be a little more choosy about what those things are. I think also, you know, the list of things that we wanted to do, we had a scroll that was like, blah-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Here you, hear you. There will be no iPads in this house. And of course, that changed too. Like there are moments on an airplane. Is that a dream I have to let go? Well, no, but you can control the way that you want to control. He's not on an iPad in a restaurant. We haven't got to that point where we feel like that.

Like, that's something we need to do. We'll bring other little toys for him to play with. But we were on an airplane and we're like, oh, we're 100% using an iPad right now so we could watch programs and play games. And this no iPad rule actually kind of bit us in the ass originally because he had no interest in an iPad because we hadn't introduced it at all. And then we were on an airplane desperate for him to just sit still. And he was like, I don't want to play with this thing.

Like I want to like be interactive like we've done it at home. And we're like, no, we really need you to like just sit still. And so it wasn't great that we did. didn't have an iPad. We were so strict with that role. So it was a middle ground that we found, but I think it's okay to have those grand aspirations that you're going to still have your life. And obviously, things are going to shift that that is not going to actually happen the way it happens. But my dad was like so annoyed that I said that. And I was like, dad, that's what everyone hopes for. Like, is it really going to happen? No. And like, I'm just as naive as every new parent

is thinking that that is the way it's going to be. It's a great point that you can aspire big and then be gentle on yourself when you fall short of those aspirations. I think that is a really lovely way to do it. You said that you're a massive people pleaser. I think there are a lot of people pleasers out there listening. Perhaps people pleasers who don't have to listen to like hundreds of thousands of people weigh in on their lives moment to moment. I'm curious as somebody who's in an extreme situation like that, if there's anything you've learned about stop being trying to please people. Well, first of all, it's impossible.

I know that. Being someone who is public facing and like literally my work is really. viewed in papers and magazines and people tell you they're paid money to write their opinions about you. Their job is also critic. It's not praise. They're not like praisers. They're critics. That's 100% right. And so just knowing that is something that I had to learn. It's also something you don't have to look at. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes that information comes to you because it's going to come to you regardless. I have my own podcast and I do look at like the comments from listeners just because I'm new at it and I want to know what people are thinking.

And there are some people who are just not going to like me because they never did. And that's okay. They don't want to hear my voice. And I imagine that they're probably not listening to every episode. They probably listen to one and decide to write a really nasty comment. And then hopefully they never listened to me again. I don't want to bring anyone discomfort and make them miserable. It's one of those things where you have to take the good with the bad.

Like we all love hearing lovely things about us, right? But you can't invest in those lovely things if you're not going to also like know that there's also negative things being said about you. For every great review I get, I was like, well, I have to also acknowledge that there are people who don't like me and don't love me. But those hurt so much more. They do hurt. They linger longer.

The good stuff sits with you. You're like, oh, thank you so much. That's so great. And then I have podcast negative reviews that play in my head for months. Yeah, same. Why are the good reviews so easy to read? And, like, you are able to, like, find joy in those things. And then why are you going to, like, focus on this one bad one?

If you're going to listen to the good reviews, like you have to also acknowledge that the bad ones are still there. They're going to weigh out the good ones. And it's a lesson to also not take positive criticism too seriously, too. And at the end of the day, we all have opinions about people and we all have judgments that we make about people and people we like and people we don't like and TV shows we like and TV shows we don't like and music we like and that's okay. That's what makes us individuals. It's just a matter of kind of finding peace in that. It's hard. It's really hard.

And I am a people pleaser. I hate reading bad stuff about me. I hate hearing that people had bad experience. The ones I've really heard of people who said that they had bad experiences with me because I might have had a bad day and I might not have been as gracious as they were hoping I would have been. And, you know, I have to let myself off the hook and realize I'm only a human and I can't always be on for everyone. And it's unfortunate that this job that I've been blessed enough to do puts me in a position where I really should be on at all times.

Do you think that you should? It's an interesting thing of like what is the demand we have of celebrities. I saw recently a post where Anne Hathaway was saying like, I'm not going to take pictures with everybody, but I appreciate you being here. I'll wave if you want a picture. You can take a picture of me waving. And half of the people in the comment section were like, oh my God, who does she think she is, whatever?

And then other people were like, why does the fact that she's chosen this job being she can't exit a restaurant and go to her car without owing people this? Obviously, you owe your career in a certain sense to people being excited to watch you. But what does that mean about the relationship that you have with fans and what you owe them? It's tricky. It's a tricky thing to navigate. It's a tricky, what is it, needles thread? Because they are the reason that I have worked.

Modern family was really popular because there were lots of people who tuned in every week. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I owe them time every time I'm out at a restaurant. I think back to when my parents would get so annoyed because they'd get courtesy calls during dinner time and how annoyed they would be for just like someone interrupting their dinner on the phone. And I was like, well, put yourself in my shoes sometimes when I'm having a dinner with my family and people are coming up and wanting to interrupt me and take a photo. And like I have my son there wondering why is a photo being taken of my papa. And I have to do the things that are right for me in the moment.

I also try and be very generous. I've also been on the other side of it. I understand what it's like to meet someone that you're a huge fan of. And I've had good experiences with that and bad experiences with that. And I don't want anyone to have a bad experience with me. So I try and find the gentlest way of navigating that. A lot of times when I'm with my family, I just say, I can't right now. I'm with my family.

And 99% of the people will understand that. And if they don't understand that, that's more of a reflection on them than me. It's tricky. It's hard. And I think that there's a sense of ownership that people have with celebrities because, you know, we do need fans in order to, like, do the jobs that we love doing. We need people to watch them and consume them. But I don't think it's fair to.

expect that they're going to give 100% of them to you at all times. It's just not fair. Well, and it's also like we want them to be human like stars. They're just like us. But we also don't want them to be too human. And it's, I just think there's a lot. I mean, it's an impossible platform to put someone on. Yeah. But I also understand because I've done it myself. I've put other people on platforms. Yeah. Has that been interesting? Because you're now in rooms where you're meeting some of your biggest idols. It was Adele one of yours? Yes. Yes. Right? And like, but you've met her and you hung out with her? Yeah, yeah. She came up for. So like, is that weird?

Yes, because it's a hell. I mean, she is who she is. And like, she was in a place where she was very open to meeting new friends. It was shortly before she announced her divorce. And I think that she was like in a place where she wanted to connect with people. And specifically she and my husband Justin, like, we're bonding at this party. And she asked for our number. And so we exchanged numbers.

We're not still in touch with her. We don't see her a lot. We went to her concert. Like she is always so gracious with us. But she's not someone who I call up a lot. I don't abuse that friendship. I think she's probably even changed her numbers since she gave it to me. But I've also met people who I idolized that it hasn't gone well.

And I've been really disappointed by that as well. I can't be mad at them because that's just who they are. I don't want people to not be authentically who they are. And if they're the type of people that don't enjoy meeting fans, like I don't expect them to make an exception for me. I love how interested you are in people being their authentic selves and how empathetic you are for that. I think it's really, really beautiful. Oh, thanks. Yeah. The last thing I want to get into is I've heard that you've tried transcendental meditation. Yes. I'm curious how that went, and I'm also curious if there are any other wellness tools, daily habits, hacks that you use to kind of stay sane and

happy. Right. I did do transcendental meditation. I loved it. I have not been great about staying on it. I will completely be honest with people. I'm not a great meditator. Since Hoffman, yes, but he does his own meditations that are sort of, you know, connected to that work that he did. I was very happy and I was much calmer when I was doing the meditation. So I know that that has been helpful. And then you were like, who wants to be happy and come? I don't need that. I started talk therapy. So I've been doing that. I've embraced medicine when I need to take it to help me feel better. But as far as-SRIs type things. Prozac. Yeah. You know, I was having a lot of anxiety and I was open to trying something.

and I've been really happy that I've taken that. You know, I feel like there's such a stigma around it, obviously, and why can I take aspirin for, you know, a headache and not take something that's going to make me feel better and less anxious. But hacks that I have, I've really cut back on drinking, especially during the week. That's helped my anxiety. Also, with kids, it's just been too much for me to, like,

have the slightest hint of a hangover. And it was hard because I love drinks and I love wine. And I've really embraced the non-alcoholic. beverages. Some are incredibly delicious. Do you have any favorites? People always ask me for my favorites. Boni Nogronis are really good. I love phony Nogonis. They're really bitter. Like, they're not sweet and I feel like a lot of mottos are too sweet. Yeah, yeah, agreed. Also, there's a lot of really great gin-like spirits that are not spirits, just very herbaceous and they smell like gin and tonic water is kind of a miracle because it really does trick you into thinking that you're

having a drink. So, you know, the fake gin and tonics are pretty great too, and you can spruce them up with slice of something. So yeah, that's what's keeping me saying right now. What do you do to decompress at the end of the day instead of having a drink? I do enjoy gummies. Okay. CBD and THC and small doses. I don't like feeling stone, but I like to feel a little bit relaxed. So there's a great market for it now, and now that it's been legalized specifically here in California, there's some really great places where you can get stuff that's super controlled and you're not feeling like you're just sort of blindly going into it and like having a cookie that's someone made and overdosing on pot. That has helped a lot.

Just and I just have been going to bed early, which has been really lovely. I'm obsessed with your bed after the AD tour. Oh, yeah. We do. How do I get a room big enough to get a king and a half bed? My husband's like, is the king not enough? And I'm like, no, no. I want to have like my own island over here.

That was only something we decided because we had this huge room and we need to fill it how we feel this big space. But yes, we do love the king and a half. That is to have our sleep. No, going to bed early is honestly, like, it sounds silly, but it changes your life. Yeah. It's a completely life-changing thing. Can you leave us with the best piece of advice that you have ever received?

It sounds so cliche, but really putting yourself in other people's shoes. And maybe it's like kind of circles back to what you said about being empathetic for people. really the first thing I try and do when I'm frustrated with someone is stop and really place myself in their shoes. And it's impossible to fully do that because doing that sort of means being in their body and like that's impossible. But I really try and like look at where they're at. It's easy to do with my husband because I know him so well. But a lot of times I find myself letting him off the hook or giving him more space or compassion because I truly have stopped and put myself in his shoes and looked at me from his point of view and I can kind of find empathy there. It is such a cliche thing. Put

yourself in their shoes. You walk a mile in their shoes. But it really does change the way I approach conflict with people. So maybe that. I mean, I don't know if it's like advice that was given to me or advice I sort of just like finally listen to it in a more usable way. No, I love that. My husband and I are listening to how to win friends and influence people because we're just like It's time. It's such a classic book. And we've only gotten through the first chapter. But the first chapter is all about Abraham Lincoln and how he was so empathetic and just resolutely

would not criticize people. So he had this civil war general disobey him. And he wrote an angry letter and then didn't send it. And that's like the closest he got to criticizing somebody. And his thought was, if I were out on the battlefield and I had all of the information they had, maybe I would make the same decision as them. And he's always doing that. saying if I was raised like that, if I had that background, if I was in that situation,

if I was surrounded by those people, perhaps those are the choices I would be making. It's this extreme level of empathy that's actually, you know, it's a classic for a reason, but I do feel like it's influenced how I interact with people. I'm like, maybe they're making that choice or talking to me that way as a result of all of these factors that have made them who they are. Right. It's interesting. Right.

Do you want to talk about anything you're working on that you're excited about in your own words? Well, the podcast is really exciting for me to work on. We came off of a writer's strike and an actor's strike. And fortunately, the podcast did not fall into that category of things I couldn't do. I couldn't talk about certain work with some of my guests. But I was so grateful that this podcast sort of came together. And it was something that was presented to me and it was something I didn't actually seek out for myself. My career has taken lots of different weird turns and I've found myself doing things that I can't believe I got to do. So I've never tried to put myself in a box. And this is one of those things that when it came to me, it's like, I'm not a podcast. host. I've been a guest on many, but like, I can't imagine driving the conversation. And I decided to do it because it scared me. And I've had a really exciting time doing it. I've also filled it with mostly people that I already know or admire. There's been a few people who I didn't know very well. I didn't know that I worked very well. And it's been really wonderful to get to know them better. But it's been an opportunity to get to sort of dissect thoughts and get into the minds of some of these people I just truly admire of everyone like Tracy Alice Ross,

to Isaac Rahi and Brian Cranston, it's coming up on an episode, and Nisi Nash, who I just, you know, who just won an Emmy Award and I consider an old friend. So it's been wonderful for me because I've challenged myself to do something that's out of my comfort zone and also, in turn, gotten to get to know some of these people that I admire on a deeper level. And it also marries my love of food because I do all these conversations over a meal at a restaurant. So it also fulfills the foodie in me. And like I get to shine a lot. on some of these restaurants in Los Angeles and New York that I love so much. So yeah, it feels like the right thing that I should be doing at this moment.

But that's sort of been what's keeping me most busy right now. And I also love researching people. Like I love to sit down with a TV show that maybe I wouldn't have watched or a movie I wouldn't have seen to get to know more about this person. It's broadened my palate a lot. There's two things that you said there that I love that I want to point out. One, you did it because it scared you. I think that is such a powerful lesson that,

people can take. If it scares you in the right way, I think that can be a really driving force. And then, two, you didn't want to put yourself in a box. I think a lot of people feel like, oh, this is my job, this is my role, this is what I've trained for it. And they're really scared, even just of the label or how it could go against what they've built for themselves. And I really like that you haven't taken that path with your career at all. Right. I think that's incredibly powerful for people to hear. If you resign to it and think, okay, I'm just a podcast host now, or I'm just a, television hosts or I just do comedies, like, that will be what happens. And like, I think it's up to

you to keep challenging yourself and keep challenging the industry to look at you differently. And it also keeps me active. It keeps me like from being complacent, you know, sitting back and letting things come to me. I have to like really continually stay on myself and on my agents and my managers and the people that are giving me jobs. I have to continually remind them that I can do many things. Yeah, multifaceted. If people wanted to start with one episode, do you have a favorite? gosh. Oh, there's so many. I really love my conversation with Margo Martindale. And also, Ed O'Neill's is fascinating because he has so many great stories. It's so interesting. Those are the two oldest guests I've had out on the show. I'm just not realizing. You're doing like your own

wiser than me. Yeah, which I also love. What's my favorite podcast right now? It's so good, right? So it's interesting that I pointed to those two out. Also, Brian Cranston, who's coming up. It's a pretty fascinating one. But, you know, start at the beginning. The very first episode's Julie Bowen. And it's cute because you can tell how much you guys love each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had several, a few modern family cast members on the show. So those tend to be the most popular ones, yes. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today.

I love this conversation. Me too. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed getting to know Jesse a little bit better. I certainly did. And I hope you are as excited as I am for our Monday episodes. If you love this episode, please send a link to someone that you think would enjoy it. It is really fun to be able to talk about these things, to talk about the episodes with people

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And you will see the word follow under the logo. on Spotify, and then there's a little follow with a plus sign button on the top right of that same page on Apple Podcasts. Also, Apple just did an update that's really annoying. So if you do follow the podcast there, even if you have been following it for a while, go to that little button in the top right and click turn on automatic download so the pod keeps showing up in your feed. This way, you will not miss out on any new episodes. They will appear right in your feed every single Wednesday and now every other Monday. And you do not want to miss out because we have some very exciting ones coming up, including an episode about how anyone can be more optimistic and another where we're going to do a deep dive

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