The Liz Moody Podcast - Kathryn Budig & Kate Fagan — Stepping Away From Success, Real Talk About Money & The Secrets Behind Their Love Story

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

Kathryn Budig (@kathrynbudig) & Kate Fagan (@katefagan3) are a superstar couple. Kathryn made her names as a internationally renowned yogi and still teaches on Glo.com. She’s also written two books, including Aim True, which contains my favorite healthy spaghettios recipe in the world. Now, she’s moved into designing performance wear with her collection with Kira Grace (the slashed leggings are the best). Kate Fagan spent years as an ESPN host, and wrote the NYTimes best-selling book What Made Maddy Run. Kate & Kathryn host the Free Cookies podcast together. We sat down in Kate & Kathryn’s beautifully decorated Charleston home to get intimate about so many things (I LOVE how open these two are). We get into the nitty gritty of success—both Kate and Kathryn found it, and then reevaluated what it meant in their lives, coming to conclusions I found fascinating and really really inspiring. We also share some real talk about sex (including defining sex in a new way), and they share their love story, and how they met. We talk about money, and what Kate learned about money from her dad (I was shook, truly). Finally, Kate shares the 5 wellness practices that changed Kathryn’s life the most. It’s a really fun, loose conversation that veers from digital minimalism to orgasms and back again, and I love it—and I hope you guys do too. I’m giving away a copy of Kate’s book and Kathryn’s book over my Instagram—enter to win on @lizmoody. PS: Wanna come hang out with me in Austin this weekend at The Good Fest or in NYC for my book launch? RSVP here—I’d love to meet you in real life! Enjoy! This episode is brought to you by CW Hemp. I’m extremely picky about the supplements that I choose to use and CW Hemp’s full-spectrum hemp extract is one of just a handful that I take daily. By interacting with our cannabinoid receptors (which are all over our body—it’s crazy, and definitely worth a Google!), I find it super helpful in relieving stress and helping me sleep better and longer at night. I typically go for the middle strength mint chocolate, but the unflavored is also great for recipes, like this Lavender Hot Chocolate (which would also be great iced in the summer time!). If you’d lke to try CW Hemp for yourself, you can get 10% off your order using the code “healthiertogether.” Visit cwhemp.com/healthiertogether for more details, and if you have any questions (I LOVE talking about this stuff), don’t hesitate to reach out to me on Instagram! This podcast is also brought to you by Siete Foods, one of my favorite brands in the country today. They make better-for-you Mexican American food, including drool-worthy grain free chips, grain free tortillas, cashew queso, and hot sauces. I literally cook with their products daily—the cassava grain free tortillas are my absolute favorites; they have a great chew and don’t break apart when you roll or fold them. I also LOVE the Habanero Hot Sauce, which isn’t too spicy but packs in a robust flavor that elevates whatever dish you use it on. You can find Siete products in stores around the country, or you can order them online at sietefoods.com using the code LIZ for an extra 10% off. Come tell me what you think on Instagram (@lizmoody)—I’m so excited for you to fall in love with the brand like I have! Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody. I am a writer. I'm an editor. I'm a cookbook author. My newest cookbook, which is also called Healthyer Together, is being released on April 9th, which is in like two weeks from when I'm recording this, which is absolutely insane. If you haven't listened to the Healthyer Together podcast before, I call it the like,

I'll have what she's having podcast. I find extraordinary people living extraordinary lives, and I try to figure out all of their secrets to how they got there, whether it's overcoming a wellness challenge or figuring out their purpose or something with self-actualization or finding love, all of those things. So this episode today actually deals a lot with success and how we define success and how we walk away from society's notions of success, which I found absolutely fascinating. But we will get into that in just one second. I have a few little housekeeping things that I want to talk to you guys about.

I have a couple of events coming up that are really exciting. and I would love, love, love, love, love to meet any of you in person. I'm so huge on community, if you've ever heard me talk at events. I think community is one of the most important things in the world and one of the things that we don't talk about that's missing from the wellness world. So I love events and getting to hug and squeeze all of you in real life. So the first one is coming up on this Saturday, March 23rd, and it's called the Good Fest. It is an amazing, it's mostly females.

I think a few guys go. Zach's going to actually be there this time. but it's a wellness event. It's a one-day wellness event, and it's in Austin, Texas this year. There's going to be yoga from Coya Webb, busy gold is speaking. I'm hosting a panel,

and I'll be talking on it and kind of leading the questions as well about anxiety and wellness, and I think that's going to be a fascinating, fascinating conversation. So if you're anywhere in the Texas area, March 23rd, you can buy tickets now. They're available on thegoodfest.com

slash Austin, or you can go to my website, lizmoodie.com. I have an events page. and you can find all of my upcoming event there, and you can see if I'm going to hit up a city near you. So Austin, March 23rd, the Good Fest. It's one of my favorite wellness events of the year. Super fun. I would love, love, love to see you there.

And then on April 9th in New York City, I have my book launch party for Healthier Together. The book comes out on April 9th. So this is actually the event on the day it comes out. And I'm hosting a panel with two of my really, really good friends in New York City in the wellness, cookbook author world. Serena Wolf, who is the woman behind Domesticate Me, which is an amazing food blog. And she also is the author of the dude diet, which is an incredible cookbook. It takes like delicious, yummy food, like casseroles and cheesy stuff, and it makes it a little bit healthier, which I'm all about. And then Ali Mafucci, who invented the concept of

spiralizing. So she did three cookbooks. They're all amazing. And she also has a product, the spiralizer, which in spiralize, I guess it's your spiralizing, but you spiralize anything. It's the best spiralizer on the market. I use it every day. So we'll be speaking at the beautiful ABC home space. We're going to have wine and food and everybody who comes gets a cookbook. And it'll just be a ton of fun, a big party. I'm so excited to celebrate the book with all of you. So you can get tickets to that on Liz Moody.com. So just click on my events tab on my website. That is April 9th, and I would love, love, love to see you there. And then finally, just to wrap up our housekeeping here, I am still giving away my three-day soup cleanse to

anybody who pre-orders healthier together. So the soup cleanse is awesome. You can make everything yourself. You make it all in like two hours on a Sunday. And then you have literally all of your meals for the soup cleanse for the next three days. You're never going to be hungry. It's really easy to do. And it's just like a fun little reset after you've eaten a lot. of, you know, candy bars for dinner, you've gone on a vacation or something like that. So if you'd like the three-day soup cleanse, absolutely free, just pre-order the book on any website that you'd like to pre-order it on, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, anything like that. And then screenshot your receipt and send it to Liz at Liz Moody.com.

And I will shoot you the soup cleanse over. And then you can tell me if you like it. And I will say, thank you for ordering the book. And it'll be wonderful. So I'll be doing that up until the launch. So if you would like the soup cleanse, go ahead and do the pre-order now. All right. That is it for that.

Let's get into my guest today. I have two women on the podcast today, and they are a lovely married couple. They're two women that I absolutely adore. Catherine Buech and Kate Fagan. They're both kind of phenomenal women in their own right, and it's insane that they found each other and then got married because I feel like it's like they were these separate stars, and then they merge together. Now they're this like supernova

that's almost crazy to look at because it's so bright and shiny. So I'll describe each of them individually quickly in case you don't know who they are. Catherine Butig has written two books, the most recent of which is Aim True, which I love. She has a SpaghettiOs recipe in it

that I'm absolutely obsessed with. She's traveled the world teaching yoga. And then most recently, she designed a collection with Kira Grace of yoga clothes slash performance clothes slash you can actually wear these to like a bar because they look like real clothes.

There's a pair of leggings that has slashes in them that are my favorite, favorite, favorite leggings in the entire world. They're so comfortable and they look like real pants. Nobody, whoever sees me wearing them thinks that I'm wearing anything other than real pants. So obsessed, obsessed, obsessed with those. And she's also just this amazing person. I've gotten to know her through the wellness world over the last few years, but long before I knew her personally, I admired her from afar.

and I did her yoga on Yoga Glow. And I was absolutely obsessed with it for a year. So I just find it such a blessing that she's somebody that I call a friend. Now I actually tell a story that's a little bit embarrassing about how I knew her before I knew her personally at the beginning of this episode. So you'll get to hear that. I'm still debating whether I should have shared it or not. But it did. So you can hear it.

And then Kate, Kate Fagan, is a former ESPN host. She has also written two books because apparently you have to write two books to be in their relationship. I'm just kidding. We actually talk a lot about like, it's not the accomplishments that matter. That's like a theme of this podcast. But she wrote recently, What Made Maddie Run, which is a really, really beautiful and important book. And it was also New York Times bestseller.

And she is working on a number of different writing projects. We talk about what she's up to these days. She actually left ESPN recently in her full-time role there. So we talk about what she's doing now. And now they live in Charleston. And together they host the Free Cookies podcast, which is an amazing podcast, not only because they had me as a guest on a recent episode, but it's really fun. They have like a very cool dynamic.

I don't know if you guys listen to car talk like, I don't know, ages ago. I used to listen to it and I was a tiny kid because my dad would listen to it in the car. And I just remember the two hosts having this really fun banter. And that's what their podcast reminds me of. They talk about really interesting stuff, but they're always like calling each other out and also being really loving and supportive of each other. when one of them says a good smart word or something like that. So free cookies podcast, super fun to listen to.

In this episode, we talk about their love story. We talk about how they met and who talked to who first and all of that type of stuff. And then we really dig into the notion of success and how that fits into our lives. They both achieved a ton of career success. And then they dealt with that in, I think, a very unique way and responded to that in a really unique way. and then live their lives very different, I think, than a lot of people who achieve those levels of success and made very different choices. And so we get into that and how they did that and why they did that and how that's affected how they're living now, which I think is really, really fascinating. We talk about digital minimalism, which is Kate's current obsession.

The notion of scaling and kind of having a large life with replicable success versus like a smaller life where you're fostering a more intimate community. what else do we do? We give sex a new definition, which I'm very into. I think it's a good one. So you guys will have to let me know after the episode if you think that we nailed it. It's a great definition of sex, I think, because it can apply across all different types of relationships. So whether it's two men having sex, two women having sex, a man and a woman having sex,

I think our new definition is applicable. And then we also just talk about some wellnessy stuff. We talk about the wellness practices that they do in their life and how they live their healthiest and happiest lives. I think this is a really fun episode for anyone interested in pursuing their dreams. Anybody trying to figure out what their dreams are, anybody trying to figure out how to be happy against all of the world's pressures and everybody telling us what we should be doing all of the time. And then also I think it's a fun one just from like a voyeuristic perspective. We talk a little bit about what it's really like to be a celebrity or live a celebrity life

and also what's kind of happening in the back alleys of the wildness world. So it's fun for all of those reasons. You can find Kate and Catherine both on Instagram. Catherine is at Catherine Beutig. Kate is at Kate Vagan 3. You can also find me on Instagram, at Liz Moody. As always, with this episode, I'll be doing a little giveaway on Instagram on my page. I think let's give away one copy of Catherine's book and one copy of Kate's book.

They can be like a little healthier together book pair. So go over to Atlas Moody and just look for. the quote on my feed and you can find out how to enter to win a copy of both of those books there. All right. And that is all I think I have for you guys today. I really hope you guys enjoy this episode. As always, come tell me what you think. I love talking about the episodes with you. I love when you guys like share it and tell me what resonated with you or things that are, you know, making you approach life differently because it makes me feel like we're just one big giant community and we're all growing and learning and changing together. And that makes me

me so happy. And with that, let's get into the show. All right, I'm here with Catherine and Kate in their lovely home. And my frozen bag of kale. Of kale, because we didn't have peas. I see my shoulder. I was Bradley Cooper and she's Lady Gaga and I got her some peas because she's hurt. And then... Are you guys secretly in love? No, it's not like, wait, we're in the movie where we were openly in love. Is one of you going to die? I was going to say, I didn't need to punch anyone in the face. It's not fun. Oh, my God. That was the... Tricky Anderson punched me in the shoulder socket. Yeah, poor Catherine is injured.

And she also had to teach a yoga class this morning. So with an injury, you did a great job, though. I feel good. Did you like the class, Kate? I love the class. Yeah. And Catherine is extremely courageous for teaching through it with an injured wing. With a smile on my face the entire time.

It's a lot. There's so many. I would get nervous with that many people, I don't know, like not only watching you, but having you like hold space for them. And then also like, I don't know, putting their stuff on you. Have I told you the story of me in London? No, but we want to know it. The story of me in London.

The story of me in London, yeah. Elizabeth, Rudy in London. No, this is like, I actually don't know if I want, well, I'm going to tell. I'm going to say, you got to go. So when I was in London was when my anxiety, like, reached its absolute peak. And there was like a month where, I mean, I was super anxious the whole time. There was like a month I was super agoraphobic and, like, didn't leave my bed. But, like, the thing, one of the main things that, like, helped me with my anxiety was I would

do my yoga glow every day because I'd read somewhere that yoga like was really good for anxiety. So I'd literally like go do my Catherine Beauty yoga glow session. And then you came to London to do a workshop. And I hadn't left the house probably in like several weeks. And I like got myself up other than to go to therapy, which is like my one thing I would leave the house for. And I got myself up and I like went to your workshop. And I was so proud of myself.

And then. What year was this? God, it was a long time ago. You were married to a man. Oh, wow. Yes. That says a lot. It was a long time ago.

But I like win up. So I was like kind of shaking and then I was so proud of myself and I was in the class doing it and you had us like touching each other in the class and that felt so good because I hadn't really been touching any. Yeah, like human contact. And then I went up to you after the class and I was like shaking and I was like, you've helped me so much with my anxiety. And it was such a lovely full circle moment for me when you guys invited me down here to do

free cookies because I was just you were such a big part of that for me. But then I was thinking today, like, that's a lot to put on somebody to go up to them at an event like that and like be like, I've been carrying this weight emotionally. Can you please take that? You know what I mean? Like it's a compliment, but it's a lot. But it's not a transference necessarily. Right.

You know, it's, I believe as a teacher specifically being a yoga teacher, part of your job is not only teaching the class, but, you know, allotting a certain amount of time. for people if they want to connect with you to be open to it. Obviously, there's a lot of healthy boundaries that you have to create because you can let people walk all over you. But at the same time, if I've traveled to London and there's someone who, if they can utter two sentences to me, that's going to make them feel complete because, you know, I often teach through a computer screen. And so I don't know how I'm affecting people or helping people. And if it's going to mean a lot to them to come up and tell me that, then I want to be present for that for them to say something.

So it means a lot to me when people say that. And yeah, after a big class like that, I normally go home. And what are you supposed to, like, touch your plants and transfer the energy? Wait, really? What do you mean you're supposed to like? Is this like the golden rule? Do it one to others? They're doing it to you.

I thought it's for your emotion. And I'm like, I would never do that to my plant babies. No, but I thought that was like a woo-woo common thing where after you've been around a lot of people. Wait, seriously. after you've been around a lot of people, you're supposed to, like, go touch a plea. Okay, while Liz and I talk, you use Google and find this

common. Common. In my crazy world, okay. Is that why you're always caressing the plants? What do you do after class to, like, get rid of the, or even after, like, a panel or something like that? Oh, my God. No, I just, I like to be along afterwards.

You know, I'm not the person who wants to go out and party with a bunch of people after I'm teaching. I want to go home, shower, put on my sweat pants, watch Outlander. That's our show right now. I'm really into time travel, but I've never watched that show,

but I feel like, I don't know why I said I'm really into time travel. How do you practice your love of time travel? I just love history. And so anything that's like, I get really obsessed with history. Like I know the entire Hamilton soundtrack, but I also can like give you the abridged version

if you listen to it where I tell you like what's factually accurate. And like, Put up. All of that. It's fun. It's a really fun car ride. I really can't wait for us to hang out.

It sounds amazing. No, but I know what you make because we love Outlander, one, because of the time travel, and also because... We're learning about Scottish history. We didn't know about Jacobites before we watched the show. The Battle of Colladden. Yeah. Those annoying people taking selfies at, like, the Colladden site.

We are not going to ruin the more any more than it has already been ruined by the fans of Outlander. All the Outlander fans are, like, ruining the site of the Battle of the Battle of, Kalodin because they're like taking selfies and now there's like an uptick in you know population that's traipsing the lands I feel like that's what that's what Iceland are we are you are you guys planning a trip to Scotland yes I'm teaching in Belfast in June oh my god I'm going to see all my Irish buddies and then we're just going to hop over to Scotland oh my gosh might teach in Edinburgh too we'll see that's so fun yeah I'm going to Scotland in August

with my dad where he wants to hike between distilleries That's his plan Two distilleries No all of like he wants to like spend like two weeks Does he have it mapped out? So he wants to hike among distilleries? Yeah he wants to like like walk during the day And then end up at a

Scotch I guess it's Scotch there Distillery and then drink until he falls asleep And then do it again next day Wait so is this like a very Scottish thing to do? Is this like Machu Picchu where you're hiking like 15 miles during the day? Like is you actually drunk in Machu Picchu at night? Is that part of it? I mean, does he want to, like, does he want to, like, be in a little city and walk from distillery or distillery?

You guys, like, backpacking. Oh, no, backpacking. He wants to backpack. Oh, so you're going to walk like 15 miles. Okay. Yeah. Machu Picchu was a great example. It was like a bicycle tour.

Yeah. It's like, and you can do that. And one of the things I love about England, I used to live in England, as you heard by my terrible anxiety story that I kicked off of the podcast with. But you can literally, they have foot pass that go over. And I don't know. I assume it's Stavis Scotland, but they have foot pass over the whole country. So you can just walk from.

city to city. Like, we went to wedding there last May and all of our British friends were like, let's just walk to the next town over there today. And they like took their shoes off and like walked to the next town. Wow. Yeah, it was special. And it, but it's like, it's such a benign country. Like they say when you're living there that there's nothing there that can kill you.

Like they eradicated every, yeah, it's the opposite of Australia. Yeah. So they send their hearty people. Other than humans. Yeah, no, humans can kill you anywhere. But meaning like there's no wildlife. Yeah, there's like no bugs that can kill you. There's no bears.

Watch out. It's a flock of sheep. Yeah, exactly. That's like the worst thing you can get in Australia. That's a really good accent. Was it? I don't know. It really just depends what class you're going for. Was that?

With your accent? Yeah, that was a little more hackney. That was like a British person trying to be Scottish. Or an American trying to be Scottish and sounding a little bit British. You can? Yeah, can. Okay, let's talk about digital minimalism. Natural transition.

Because when I walked in here and I asked if there's anything that you guys wanted or didn't want to talk about, assuming you would say, like, oh, I have this cool project and trying to promote or something like that. Kate said, I'd like to talk about digital minimalism. Catherine is like, you can go ahead. Kate gets on these kicks. She gets these, I mean, and this kick is been secular because this is not the first time that Kate says that she's going to completely stop using the internet and her phone. And have a flip phone. Wow. We actually have a flip phone in the other room that has never been open. Okay, so what do you think when you think about that?

So do you not feel like social media is a necessary evil to being like your type of career, i.e. a public figure? Yeah. It is for me. It's not for Kate. I don't think it's necessary for anyone. For any.

So you, would you, um, disagree with Catherine that she says it's necessary for her? Because she just said it was. Yeah. I understand the perspective. I just think that with how much communication we've done between the two of us about like what projects we actually want to work on. and they're all more long-term deeper projects, right? Like a cookbook that really, that we've been brainstorming.

I'm trying to write a novel. There's all these different projects that just take shutting out the outside world and like going into yourself. And I think if you did that, you would be able to then make money and connect with an audience and you wouldn't, not you as in Catherine, I'm not looking at Catherine, I'm just saying generally, you wouldn't necessarily need like the day-to-day social media presence. Okay, so what about to play devil's advocate?

The devil has enough advocates. She's so cranky pants about that statement. Okay. I hate that statement. Okay. What about to express an opinion that I grapple with myself? It's okay, Liz. Say whatever you want to say.

No, no, I want to know what you actually think. This is what I actually, I mean, it's an issue I struggle with, but you go, you shut yourself out from the outside world. You do this project you're really passionate about, and then you go to a publishing house and you try to sell it, and they say, who's your audience and how are you going to reach them? That's the problem. It's career suicide for especially, I mean, and Kate, when she writes this novel that she wants to write and be away from the world, exactly. When it comes publication time, I mean, her publication house is going to be like, all right, we need to see posts. We need to see shares. Or then you're relying on like you can say, well, I don't need that and I'll reach out to my network of people who have social media, but then you're relying on other people to sort of eat the bad apple instead of you having to eat the bad apple. So if you want to do something that's inherently audience dependent.

How do you do that without cultivating an audience? Well, I see how like when a project comes out, you need to be online and promoting it. I'm not disputing that that's the way to get the word out unless you're like one of the small percentage of artists, writers, creatives who just don't need that anymore. Yeah. But I also think that people convince themselves that they need to be doing three posts a day every day when like I don't think that taking a few months off and then coming back like you haven't really lost anything and in that time I think that you will do much better work so it's not like

I'm like I'm going to have a flip phone I'm never going to be on social media again and you know and it's like technology I'm not going to be like the Amish right in fact I'm not even going to go there but the amish actually makes more decisions about technology they're like is this technology that will improve our lives or is this technology that is going to distract from our core values of like community and connection. So anyway, the digital minimalism thing is just, it's almost like a whole 30, but for digital technology, you just take 30 days and you say, what is the optional technology in my life?

You know, and for some people, that's, they can't get rid of text messages because they have kids and those kids tell them when they got to get picked up from soccer practice that way. You know, or like, it might not be optional for some people. Maps might not be optional. I mean, I travel a lot in Hotel Tonight for me a lot of times is it's not optional. Right. I mean, I could work around it. But anyway, the larger point is just that I think too many people make the decision about technology just saying there's some benefit to it. Instead of acting

like, what's the overall cost? You're getting, you're getting a few extra viewers or few extra consumers of whatever product you put out, but it's costing you actually ever creating that thing for a lot of people. Like, they're like, I want to do this deep work. I want to write a book. I want to write whatever the creative thing is that they want to do. And they're stuck in like the day-to-day bullshit. So I think we can get much farther away from the day-to-day churn than we are now. I think that the fear isn't that people will go away, but it's, I think, a greater societal fear, which I wanted to talk to you about anyways, which is that you won't continue to grow.

So, like, if I go off social media for three months, I'm not like, oh, the followers that I have are going to be gone. I'm like, everybody else is continuing to get bigger while I'm gone, and I'm not continuing to get bigger. And I think there's a general societal pressure that if you're not moving forward, you're moving backwards. Well, I think that's the addiction of social media and what they want you to believe. I mean, they're paying people to make you believe that.

I don't think it's social media specific, though. So there's one of your podcasts recently, which had a really great guest named Liz Moody. What is you saying? She sounded really, like, smart. Her dad was, like, medium on it, but she sounded really smart, I thought. You got bad feedback from your dad? No, he was just, I think we were listening to in the car and he, like, couldn't hear me that well.

And he kept being like, what is this? You know, like, he was, like, really grumpy about it. But, yeah. But you said that you didn't want an ESPN show. And I thought that was really interesting because you said that everybody expected with your career path that you would, the goal, the end goal would be to have an ESPN show of your own, which I guess you, like, have a show and it's like nighttime with Kate Began and basketball or something. of, you know, like an afternoon show.

Right. But you were a co-host of a show, right? Yeah, like I had shows that I was on every Friday or I would substitute host. But, like, I didn't have my show that if I left ESPN, the show would stop. The show would stop. So I think that that speaks to this greater, like, I found it really interesting, surprising, and I was almost jealous of the ability to be like, I don't want that. Because I think it's so ingrained into me.

But, like, I would love to be like, and I think it's. something I'm working on to not just be like, I want the maximum amount of success possible, but I think it's very ingrained in us to want the maximum amount of success possible. And that goes with the social media and goes with all of that. So like, do you think you're defining success differently or how are you different in that? Like, why are you able to not say you want your own show when everybody expects that? Well, I think it starts out with we're both really lucky that we've had very successful careers. So we do have a taste of what it feels like to be successful.

And we have been wildly ambitious. and we've recognized that the higher our ambitions become often the further we get from being happy. And there's only so many years that you can do that and totally miss the correlation of like this pursuit of this untangible moving goalpost that I can never attain. Like it's not making me happy. And we have found we, I think we're chipping into it slowly, you know, the things that make us happy. And it turns out it's not. accolades and it's not success. And we both still, I mean, we would be lying if we say we don't have an ego when it comes to wanting to be seen. And it's something we both meant in the spotlight for

so long. And I personally struggle with it because I really want to be in it, but I don't want to be in it at all. But I really want to be in it and I don't want to be in it at all. And it's, it's almost like I've been going through this detox of needing other people to feel like I'm special and worth it. Instead of looking back at the long list of things I've done with my life, where it's like if I never did something else, I would still feel like I did something good on this earth. Why do I have to keep trumping things that I've already done before? And what choices can I make for myself and what can we make as a couple that is bringing our mental health into a place that is not reliant on something that we can't control? Okay, how do you do that?

Well, just to add on that, like, I think it was the Atlantic last week, did an article on like workism. And it's just the idea that I think a lot of us who are maybe borderline millennials, maybe, you know, mid-30s, and certainly people in their 20s and early 30s, it's this idea of like work and achievement as our religion. And that and for a lot of people in that age bracket who are maybe just starting their careers now or are coming to that place of like 10, 15 years of like being in them, I have thought of a, pursuit of success and work as what I prayed to, as what I showed up for, as the thing that would fuel me instead of, you know, traditional religions or whatever anyone subscribes to and worships. I certainly worship this idea of pursuit of success. Like that, I was like, that's what's going to fill the, you know, the hole that we all have in our hearts is like success. And then you get success and like, it doesn't fill that hole. And then you're just spun.

But also I think a lot of people get success and it doesn't feel that hole. And then, like, I would have been mind blown five years ago if I'd known I would have the level of success I have today, but it doesn't feel that whole. So I'm like, got to get more, you know. And so how did you feel great in like one? It's very much like an addiction. It's like you will feel great if your cookbook hits the New York Times bestseller list. But then did it hit number one on the New York?

No, I mean, that's exactly what happened. How many weeks is it? The New York Times bestseller list for your book. Yeah. And what did, can you just like walk me through what that felt like? We got into a really big fight that day. We did. About the New York Times bestseller list?

What can you tell me about it? You brought it up. Now you got to follow through. Well, it was, I mean, this is a prime example of this conversation. It's just when my second book came out, I. Aimed true. Aimed true. I was hell bent on getting on the list.

And in retrospect, I'm like, what a fucking idiot. Like, it's about the content. It's not about where it lands. And it's not about how many people it reaches. It's about who's affected by it. And I just, you know, had goggles on for like, I have to be on the list. And my agent and my publishing house, they all, like, expected it to get there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like boring with the details. But it didn't.

But I did get on the Canadian bestseller list. I'm very popular in Canada. But the point is, it was just. nicer people. And I had a major emotional hangover afterwards. And it's something that it just stoked into insecurity issues that I've had in my entire life. And it kind of woke up those beasts. And so I started tackling some ghosts in the hallway of my mind that I hadn't seen in a while. And then the pitfalls of marrying someone really smart and amazing is that they're successful and they have amazing things because they pulled them in. And so when she got on the list,

I didn't think she was being sensitive to my struggles. And I knew she was. was going to hit the list. I knew I was talking to my therapist about it. He's like, you know it's going to happen. I'm like, I know what's going to happen. How did you like, was there a buzz or an energy before the book came out? Like, how do you, how do you know the book was going to hit the, or just because, uh, well, I think it was a combination of the topic. It's timely and yet it's a universal thing. It was. This is the book what made Maddie run. And it's so important. Um, and then that combined with she wrote an amazing book. There was already a lot of buzz about the long form story she had written a few years before. And we got a lot of good media. She got great,

she had a great platform. She's on ESPN. She was on the today show. We did. I did. I did the daily show. Daily show. Oh, yeah. I saw that. Which is, I have such a crush on him. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think everybody does. Yeah. And you just, you follow, you know, it's like, of course, you're stalking it. You follow the Amazon numbers and we knew it had gotten to like the top 15. It was the worst because I was legitimately excited. I wanted her to make her. Sure she was. Hey, now. Hey. I had cookies made in the form your face for the launch party. Were they from New York City? Natural colors.

I all know. Healthy cookies. They were a whole 30 approved cookies. But that's why I mean, I think I would have such a hard time. My husband is in the startup world and he's not even like and when he's involved in my shit, it's 100% my shit. And I have so many friends who are writers and they date other writers. And I would have such a hard time with it.

It was tricky. And I mean, I behaved badly and I know that. but it was also just like I was not in an emotional place to fully 100% celebrate her. So what is like going hard until it happened? What did it feel like for you? Because like you're elated that you're, I mean. Aside from the fight that we had. Yeah.

Did you understand where she was coming from for it? Or were you like, this is my day? I didn't think of it as my day. It's just I think I didn't understand at the time. I didn't know that it would be such a big deal because, I did not have the same attachment to making the New York Times bestseller list. And so it's hard for me to understand how it would, a year and a half later, right? A year and a half after her book, like, be so powerful to her that it would not just be upsetting her,

but it would trump even excitement for me. And so there's a lot of confusion there. Just like when you don't feel an emotion about something, it's, you know, it's hard to really understand. But we worked through it quickly. but to our original point as well, like when it made the list, like, of course, by the end I was like, I hope it makes a list, you know? It's a nice thing to put on the paperback, if nothing else. Yeah.

And the email that came in after that I'd made it was like, now let's keep going and climb the list. And that's honestly, when I got that email, I was like checking out. I'm fucking checking out. I know. So bad. Was that from like your publicity team? No, I mean, it might have been from Little Brown or my age.

I mean, who knows, right? But like, it was like, this is great. Now let's keep going and climb it. And I was just like, fuck all y'all. Like, right then I was like, the moment lasted less than seven seconds. I have like a full physical reaction to that. That's insane. That's like, feels so indicative of everything.

But that's success in celebrity. Growing up not celebrity, but like. Oh, anyway. Well, I think celebrity too, just because when I used to live in L.A., I taught privately a lot of celebrities. And my big takeaway, not all of them, just in case anyone happens to be listening to the podcast right now. If you're listening, it's not you.

But many of them, I mean, they were like the most effed up people I had ever met and unhappy. And they, I mean, if you looked at them from the outside, I'm like, how, what do you have to be unhappy about you of all this money and everyone loves you and look at your house and this? And you can afford to have a yoga teacher, like, come and have coffee with you. And then you still pay me even though we did five minutes of yoga. It's ridiculous.

And it's just, it's lonely, you know? Is it lonely or is it that they're sort of. so reliant on, or maybe both, but they're reliant on the external validation so much that they never learned to build anything internally. Well, okay, a couple of things. And you lose your grasp on reality. Yeah, like a couple things that. Like, when I was doing, when I was with ESPN and Kate was super famous. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. The first time I hung out with you, people were like shouting at you when we were walking around. Yeah, there's a certain form of sports fan that like, we'll know. Yeah. Oh, she can stop. And they're shouty. Yeah. Yeah. And they're shouting.

Yeah, yeah, of course. The sportsman's like, are you, Kate Megan? You're out of red horn. We scratched my back. Yeah, thank you. Okay, so when I was with the ESPN, I hosted a Saturday morning radio show, and one time we had an entertainment writer who co-hosted with us. She worked for the undefeated, whatever, it doesn't matter.

And she told this story about how when she would cover Hollywood, every single red carpet event, premiere party she went to, the media was circulated a list of who was going to be there. in order of priority. And so it would be like, you know, it would be like one, and this was surprising way, she was like, Reese Witherspoon would always be in the top three. She was very coveted. You know, but it would be like, of course, like Brad Pitt, George Clooney, there would be people that it was like,

those are the people you have to get, but it would be listed in numerical order. And so it's like, how are you, and this is applicable, I mean, yes, I'm talking about Hollywood right now, but I mean, it's applicable to everyone because now we see those types of numbers, reflected back to us in so many ways. Likes on an Instagram post. Yeah. Oh, nobody likes this. What are you supposed to think?

You know, it's like if two years ago you were like seven on the list, you know, because the celebrities saw these lists. And then all of a sudden you're like 30th on the list, which, you know, with like a tag like, don't worry about it. You know what I mean? Like, so all of that stuff I think once was reserved for celebrities. I don't think they're the healthiest group of people necessarily that we've ever had in our society for good reason.

And now I think that that has been transferred to whether you have, something I talk about too, like whether you have 80 followers on Instagram or 2 million, you can engage in that same behavior. And no, I have friends who don't use Instagram professionally at all and they'll still take down photos if they don't get a lot of likes. Like they don't get 15 likes or something. I just learned that that's a thing. Yeah. And I'm just like. Because they don't want people looking at their page and thinking they're not popular.

Yeah. Like if you're not using it for your business, I'm just like, why do you care at all? Yeah. It's very interesting. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. I want to take a quick break so I can tell you a little bit about one of my favorite supplements right now, Charlotte's Web. If you're not living under a rock, you've likely heard of CBD. It's the wellness supplement du jour.

It's the non-psychoactive component of the hemp or marijuana plant, meaning it won't get you high at all, and it interacts with a huge number of parts of your body to help bring them back into balance. Charlotte's Webb takes this one step further. Rather than isolated CBD, it's a full-spectrum hemp extract, which I live. love because I prefer plants in the whole food form generally. I just assume that nature knows far more than us at this point about everything working synergistically. The company is also vertically integrated, which means they produce everything in the bottle from seed to shelf. With hemp extract or CBD, this is a huge deal, since it can often be contaminated. And if you're taking a contaminated supplement,

it kind of beats the point, doesn't it? Charlotte's Webb is also legal in all 50 states. So this is how I use it. I usually take two full dropperfuls of the mint chocolate plus, which is the middle strength one out of the three strings. And I put that under my tongue at night. I let it sit there for about 20 seconds, since it absorbs better by sitting under your tongue rather than going through the stomach or digestive system. And then I swallow. I really find that it helps promote a healthy sleep cycle for me. I also keep a bottle at work, and I'll take one dropper full just to deal with stress throughout the day. Again, it does not make you feel high at all. I personally find that I just feel way calmer, especially when I'm taking it regularly.

I also love to make healthy recipes with it. I have a lavender chocolate truffle recipe coming out in my new healthier together cookbook. And I also have a lavender hot chocolate recipe on my Instagram feed. So clearly I like lavender and chocolate together. I use the unflavored version for recipes, although the mint chocolate one would be super delicious and some chocolate energy balls, which I would love to just like have a stash of in my fridge whenever I'm feeling that. burst of stress around three in the afternoon. I feel like you know what I'm talking about there.

It also be really good in ice cream, I think. So I'll have to try that. If you want to try the CW hemp extracts, they have been kind enough to offer 10% off for all healthier together listeners. Just go to cw hemp.com backslash healthier together, CWHEMP.com, backslash healthier together, like the name of the podcast,

and use the code, healthier together when you check out to get 10% off. Again, that's code healthier together, CWHemp.com backslash healthier together. And then hit me up on Instagram. I'm at Liz Moody with any questions. I've studied this stuff a ton and I love talking about it. I truly believe in it and has made a massive difference in my life. All right.

Let's get back to the interview. What did you realize upon achieving that success, like actually makes you happy? and I guess in a greater scheme and then also in like what do you do on a Monday? Should we talk about what truly makes us happy? I mean I think we could probably

finish each other's sentences on what a Monday looks like if we're really happy. On what a Monday looks like? Meaning like a Monday morning. Or any average day. I think people are like, oh, the things that make me happy

are like community and like good food. And then I'm like, okay, but like we all still have a certain amount of hours that we need to fill every day. Like what does your day to day look like when you're applying those principles of happiness. In a more general answer, what I started to realize was that a lot of our jobs and most, for a lot of people, you're getting caught up in just like the circular churn of just doing

very shallow level of work. And that looks like being on top of your email inbox. And then at the end of the day, being like, I've accomplished something when like really all you've done is like pushed information around. you've not created anything. And like, whether you're working as a writer or you're working as an actuary and an insurance company, there is a level of, like, deep thinking that you have to do to, like, really be valuable. And I started to realize that, like, I just was telling myself I was doing work, which looked like that. It's like putting up an Instagram post,

like, sending 32 emails, like, taking five-minute phone calls. And, like, at the end of the day, I hadn't created anything new. And in my world, that was writing. And I noticed the time I did write, even if it was for two hours and I wrote 500, 700 words, I would just feel like, oh, like, that's me. That's me again. And I think whatever that is for people, there's something that they're doing. Maybe it's not their, you know, day-to-day job, but it's like this thing that they love to do. And we're all, I think, getting away from doing that.

So to me, that's what I was like. We're distracted. Yeah. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I need to do this thing, whether it's painting or writing or, you know, crunch. and people love crunching numbers, you know. I feel like we're getting away from any kind of work where you don't just like push information around.

So that to me is what I wanted to get back to. And to say that super concisely, I think per day, we really like one. No, I'm just compiling it into a neat little sentence. Good. One to two hours a day of work makes us feel really good. And by work, you mean real. Like that deep work.

Yeah. True, not running errands, not. Not hopping on conference calls. Not sending emails. Not sending emails. the least productive thing ever. I mean, because there's more work, quote, unquote, work than that in the day. But if I could get, like, an hour or two hours where, like, I was just me and my own body

creating something, that to me is where I need that at least three to five times a week. And then we shift into, yeah, we want to see our friends. Yes, we want to go out to a restaurant. Yes, we want to cook amazing food. And then once the sun goes down, we are like phones off, computers off. Let's watch our shows or just be with each. other, yeah. Wait, so what's your one or two hours? Is that also writing? I feel the best when I have one or two hours of not necessarily writing. You know, for me, I'm working on my second collection

with Kira Grace. So it's, I'm researching patterns and cuts and like, what is it that's lighting me up that I want to make sure this is a cohesive collection and... Or recipe building. Or recipe building. We want to, we're working on a new essay-driven cookbook. Together? Together? Together. Are you guys, would you say you're getting healthier together? I would say that. And full circle. Yeah. So, you know, and those are the things.

And I taught a class this morning at the Charleston Wine and Food Festival. And I love that. And sometimes I think I miss that routine of showing up and having my regular students and teaching. And yet at the same time, I'm like, I'm added, this is a new chapter for me. And I don't want to move backwards. I want to find the things that move me forward that I can draw inspiration from everything that I've learned through my past. But like, what is it that excites me? is design and it is cooking and creating and getting to work together too.

Okay. And I know that we're not supposed to ask questions because we're not the interviewers of this podcast, but like where are you when it comes to how you're feeling about your cookbook and it coming out? How would you describe where you are like mentally and emotionally about it? I think I was in. I did this totally offline retreat type thing the week before last week called OnSight. It is amazing.

It's like transformative. Did you go somewhere called on site? Yeah, it's called on site. Oh, it's like a physical location. You went offsite to onsite. How many people have made that joke? Nobody yet. Oh, good.

You're a pure original, Kate. Gosh, darn the light. And I think I was feeling very differently about it before then. And I'm feeling better about it post then. I think a lot of what I worked, it's sort of like a mental health retreat and you do like group therapy for like six days. And it's really intense. And everybody cries a lot.

lot, but a lot of like entrepreneurs and celebrities and I think people who have a lot of, and then a lot of people with like really intense trauma in their past go there and work through that kind of stuff. And a huge thing I'm working on is trying to find self-worth like internally instead of externally. So I think that helped before that if anything happened with my book. Like we did the cookie thing and I thought they undercooked the cooking. cookies a lot. They did. It's very hard when other people cook your recipes and they're not using the ingredients that you would pick. Well, yeah, especially when it's a key recipe in your

cookbook and you want to isolate them. Right. So I spiraled after that thing a little bit and I was just like one, Catherine and Kate like invited me to fly to Charleston do this podcast and they're going to think my cookies are shit and then all these other people are going to think my cookies are shit. But you made them for us before and they were amazing. And I actually, I do think the ones you made for us were better, technically speaking, but I still thought the ones at the event were delicious. Well, and then, so Catherine and I did this event for Charleston Food and Wine like two days ago, and this woman came up to me at the event and she was like, I saw you at the podcast. I've been making the cook.

I've made the cookies like 20 times since. I make them for all my ladies. I'm going to buy the cookbook for all my ladies. And it's just interesting how even when you. I think she's like a charming Southern lady. She's a, and she made my day. Like it just changed. It's interesting how.

even something I'd labeled as like this is, the experience is great, but the cookie part of it felt like a failure. Felt like a failure. And it had been a total success for her. So I think I'm trying to get my head around that that kind of thing universally happens. Like it, none of it is really a success. None of it is really a failure. And also at the end of the day, they're all cookies.

You know, like that's what we're talking about. And you never know who you're affecting. I think that's the problem is that we are trained now to getting this instant gratification of people liking things. Yeah. And if we don't get to see that someone likes what we're putting out into the world, we assume they don't like it. Yeah. And yet think of all the people out there that will be affected by your cookbook who will love it that you will never meet.

You will never see their face. You will never hear that they love your cookbook. And yet they will open it every single week. Well, and I'm trying to get on board with the fact that even if it sells 5,000 copies, that's like 5,000 people who are like making my food. Or like with my Instagram, I have like 40 something thousand followers. and I look at the like big accounts with hundreds of thousands of followers. And I'm like, oh, like, I can't wait until I'm that big so I can speak to all these people. But I'm like, I want to write things that people read.

And right now I have 40,000 people, well, dependent on the algorithm on any given day. But like reading my stuff. And it's crazy that I'm so dismissive of that because I want a different number. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the things I've been talking about a lot lately is like our obsession with scaling in this country. Yeah. like just obviously it's like a word for Silicon Valley yeah you can't have a business

without being how can we scale it and then the companies that are the biggest in this entire country like Google they can't really scale anymore so now they have to buy up other countries basically countries but other companies and like and have Google holding ventures to continue to have growth and I just think that like we're kind of all caught up in that mindset of like I have to affect as many people as possible instead of just saying with your 40,000 followers, instead of being like, you know what? Like the equation for my life's happiness

to continue to grow this versus just fostering this community here, that tradeoff, you know, that there isn't value for me in it. And the same with like, it's like even if you started a bakery down the street, it's like, and someone's like, well, can you move to the next city? Let's make sure we get one in Nashville and Atlanta too. And you're like, no, but I just, I love my community. Yeah. And I want to, I want to affect my community here.

And, like, that apparently is like, you're not ambitious. And you're, but it's like, yeah, that flip. But then I've had to do this personal work too where, you know, oh, I would just want to reach as many people as possible, which sounds so altruistic. It's really easy to be in wellness, I think. Oh, yeah. But in reality, I want to reach a lot of people because it's my ego. Yeah.

And it's not an altruistic thing. So it's, I mean, yes, there are components of it that's like, I want to help people. That's what I do for a living. So that's always there. But it's like, I want to help people. especially if it feeds my ego. And just being really honest with the shadow side of ourselves where it's like, okay, that's not the prettiest part of my personality and really like digging into that

and understanding this is part of who I am. How can I, you can never fully squash it. It's always going to be there. But how can you kind of, you know, carry on size it compact? So it's not something that's dominating your daily decisions. How do you do that on like a, like if you feel like you teach the, class this morning and you're like, I love having 300 people like excited about me and fawning over me.

Maybe I should go. But what is the conversation? I mean, you're 500 people and it'll be a bigger high. Yeah. Well, actually, that's the one place where I don't, I don't scale because I prefer to teach 40 people. I prefer to teach 20 people. But maybe you could do more like, you know, like jump back into this yogi side of yourself where you got so much validation and you're on the cover of magazines and blah, blah,

like what is the mental conversation when you have the appeal? of that dangled in front of you. It's appealing, but again, this is where I really figure out what's important to me because, sure, my ego is like, oh, my gosh, there's hundreds of people, yay. And that's always going to feel good. But I am a teacher. And I like to teach people. And when I have hundreds of people, it's very difficult to teach.

Then it turns into more of a performance and just trying to herd cats and make sure you keep their attention. When I have 20 people, 40 people, then it's like, I see the whites of their eyes. I might even know everybody's name. And then we get to dissect things together. And I get to do what I know I'm really good at and what people actually want from me. And so the fact that that still lights me up, makes me feel like I'm still in tune with the kind of things I want to do with my life.

Not to say that every now and then it's great to go somewhere and have hundreds of people want to be with me. That's a fantastic feeling. But to me, it's so performative that that's not my real. That's not me fully being a teacher. It's not me putting on just a show either. but it's like I know what really makes me happy. And when I strip my ego away, I'm like, that's what I want to be.

I want to teach. I want to show up. I want to be with these people. So that's a daily reminder for myself. Back to the altruism thing. Because I think I feel like in the wellness world, there's this like top level lie that everyone, not everyone, a lot of people in the wellness world have to tell, which is that everything is driven by trying to put good into the world and trying to like connect people

and enrich their lives. is such, like, for a lot of people, I think it's bullshit. But nobody, like, is willing to say, um, I am putting out this product because I want to make lots of money and I want to be famous and have influence and power. Like, it's like you're not allowed to say that. Obviously, you're not allowed to say it in most industries. I think it's sports, not in like media, but when you're actually playing sports, you're just allowed to be like, I want to be the best.

Show me a money. And are you supposed to be like, I, it's the love of the game and say, yeah, you're supposed to say that too. And like in acting, you're supposed to be like, I just want to act. And like, it doesn't matter if a million people show up or nobody shows up. But like, it's interesting that you're not, we're supposed to aspire and aspire and aspire for success, but we're not ever supposed to like acknowledge that that's what we're aspiring. Yeah. And we're never supposed to. Especially as women, I think. Yeah. I think there's a whole other level as women. I think there's a lot of things we're not supposed to say, like, tell the truth about, you know?

What else do you not think we're supposed to tell the truth about? All of it in this range of like, altruism. And the reasons why you might. might want money. It's especially bad in the wellness. Or why you might want power or why you might want success. Yeah. It's like if I had gone around with my book and been like, I want to make as much money as possible with this book.

I want to grow my following with this book. I want my ego to be fed by this book. Like nobody like everyone would be like, how horrifying. You know? So instead you have to say, I need this book to touch people. Yeah. I need it to change their lives and put good into the world. Which is it to say that you don't want that.

Yeah. That is a component. Yeah, I'm not saying that like that was totally wrong. I just mean I've always struggled with like being like, well, how am I supposed to lie and not say like I have some ego wrapped up in this book? Right. Of course. Like I wrote this book. I want people to think I'm a good writer.

Right. Like I want this to like move forward how people view me in my career. And if obviously simultaneously you're also connecting face to face with people and seeing that they care about the book, that's just amazing too. But I just feel like I just sometimes when people in the wellness world and every world are just like, I just want this to affect people. And I'm like, bullshit! You also want to feed your ego. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I just shut down when like people won't actually also just talk through. Did you say that at all in your book tour? Yeah. Did you say I want to tell this important? Because you, I mean, your book was also like a important story. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is nice. But did you ever say like I want this. Well, like I did a podcast with long reads. I'm sorry, long form podcast. And we talked all through that. I'm like, look, of course, I'm a writer. I want to be seen as talented. And I want as many people to read it as possible because then it, like, gives me

cachet in lots of different ways. But I'm like, but I also feel like unlike most books because of this topic, I'm not allowed to even remotely touch that. If you put a piece of fiction out, you know, and it's like the woman in the mirror or the woman in Cabin Tan or the woman in the train or whatever the woman books that are out, like you can just straightforward just be like, you don't have to pretend that this book is going to change people's lives. You can just be like, I'm a fiction author.

I want people to read it. I want it to be a movie because I want to be a badass. Yeah. But there's certain pockets, especially wellness, where you're like, it's kind of like off limits to really be honest about. Do you guys think that you've gotten to a place where you need that less from the world, the validation, because you're in such a good relationship with each other? Like, is that part of what gives permission?

That we don't need validation or as much from the world. I'm sure that helps, but I also think we're just getting older. And we've had enough experiences and we are craving different experiences in our life. Yeah. I think that's a lot of it. Yeah. I'm creating different. I crave different feedback, you know?

I think you just kind of get more finely tuned as you get older and the frequency of like the feedback of like other people just I'm seeing that when I get it, I just need more of it. Whereas the feedback of sitting and like creating a piece. So fleeting. Yeah. It's so fleeting. But like the high of like creating 500 cool, like good words that I'm proud of like

the whole night I'm kind of buzzing. You know? Or like, ooh, yeah. I'm a writer. Liz Moody every time you tell me that the leggings that are designed with Kira Grace are your favorite thing and you wear them four times a week. It makes me statically happy. I was nervous by the end of my retreat that like people would start commenting on the fact

that I'd been wearing them for six days straight. And like they would be like, do you have multiple pairs? Like art is smelly. How is your personal hygiene? Yeah. They really are amazing. So is designing sort of what gets you off these days? I don't think it's going to be my full-blown next career or anything like that, but it's, I love fashion, I love design, I love the artistry in it.

It's also just, you know, I've got 15 years under my belt with being in yoga and wellness, and I know a lot about performance and what works and what doesn't, and I've learned a lot about design just from wearing stuff. And so it's exciting to take my knowledge on the mat and performance and combine it with fashion. And so to find something that people really want to be wearing. I love the challenge of that. Yeah, your fashion sense is like insane. Oh, it's on point. It's insane. I look at what you, I've said this a million times,

but like I wish you would just like quit your career and dress me. Oh my gosh. For free. Like completely for free. Just make me look cute every day. I don't know where you buy your stuff. Okay. I want to switch gears for a second and talk about your guys's relationship.

Because to me you guys are like so couple goalsy. And you always know. I mean, every time I hang out with you, you guys are, like, touching each other and just, like, so lovey-devy. And on your podcast, you, like, affirm each other every time the other person does something well. And you just have a lot of components that I look at. And I'm like, oh, that's like a healthy, good relationship. So were you guys like that from the get-go? Or did you have to do work to become couples?

Well, it's not like we fight in public, you know? I mean, I think that's the problem with anyone looking at another relationship and thinking its goals. It's like, you're seeing the best of them. Not to say, I mean, people obviously do fight in public, but. Sometimes it can't be helped. Yeah, it does happen. You're just so mad. Yeah.

Because that gets really mad at me because I tend to be like the loud one when we fight in public. And he's always just like, keep it down. Let's all pretend like nobody can tell we're fighting. Yeah. I mean, the overall takeaway is, yes, it turns out if you are as lucky as we are to. I mean, we talk about all the time. Like, we don't think we're. normal that we got to find each other.

Yeah. Like it's... Can you tell us briefly, like the story of how you found each other, like a little love story? When I used to work for ESPN, they used to put on a yearly summit in California called the ESPNW Women in Sports Summit. Do you hear our voice changed? It's like I'm a narrator now. I know.

It's like the soft voice. And Under Armour sponsored the event for two years. And Catherine was sponsored by Under Armour. So Under Armour would bring its athletes to the summit to teach. And so she was teaching at the summit while I was... I had to moderate a lot of panels. And look, I did get. You totally changed.

So we met there. We met there probably four years ago now, but we didn't really connect a ton, although we met briefly. I got married a week after I met her the first time. Wow. To a man, not to me. Yeah, no. That would be really romantic if you guys had just gotten married a week after you met.

We're great. But you liked, like, friendly, you liked each other? Did you, like, think each other was super cute? Oh, the first time we met? Yeah. Oh, the first time? It was so fleeting. I mean, I remember, I was like, wow, she's really striking.

And you just, you don't forget Kate. You're both sort of like magnetic people. And I feel like it's interesting when you get two. I also have questions about that too, to have like two of the stars in one relationship, I think is really interesting. But to finish your love story first. Well, and then we saw each other briefly twice before the following. I mean, the thing that's, I especially meet a ton of people with my work. And so, and I forget people easily.

It's just, it's not a quality that I possess. I feel bad about it. But I was just doing an event in New York that she came to as press. Oh, I wasn't press. Oh, you're just there. Oh, you're just there. Just kidding. She's important.

She's important. Yeah. Really? Because I would think that would be less fancy. I thought you were there for ESPN. Press is like slumpy people eating the food or maybe, you know. Like, we want you to cover it. For everyone involved in press listening to this podcast, Kate sends her apologies.

No, I feel. Sports media. I feel fancier when I'm invited as something as talent than invited as press. Because press you're there to cover talent and talent you're there because you're like start yourself. Yeah. But anyway, so she did go straight up to her. I was like, I know you. Why do I know you?

How do I know you? I was like, I don't know. I know. Wait, did you remember her? We figured it out. Yeah. I mean, you're like random, another blonde random chick. No, I definitely was like, do we know each other from?

I knew a little bit because you were on the panel and like you were yoga. and Under Armour, and I was like, oh, I think that she taught yoga at the summit. And I'm better about remembering faces, even if I'm not great about remembering names. But she left before the event was over so we didn't get to hang out or talk. Yeah, I mean, I think that this is what I always say about Catherine and then seeing her then, and then seeing her, it was probably six months later at the next year's ESPNW Summit. It was like, and that's when we started talking a little bit more is that I thought she was super straight, you know, so I just...

Do you, like, just make assumptions about people when you meet that? That sounds horrible. No, no, no. But, like... I think we all, don't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, I think I have a pretty good, you know... But are you ever, like, she's presenting a super straight, but, like, I could get her.

That's proper verbiage. Yeah. So... That's very well done. I was like, she's presenting a super straight, but, like, I could tell a little bit that, I mean, she clearly was kind of trying to hit on me a little bit, but at the same time, don't you think? Yes. Oh, okay. I was definitely hitting on you. But at the same time, I wasn't really interested in like, straight girl. Being the straight girl's fantasy.

Yeah. Like, I just, I'm not good at that thing. You know, I'm very, I'm very good at like. She likes them hell of gay. No, that's not true. You like a normal relationship. Yeah. I like that. I've got a lot to make jokes. No, I didn't know it was a joke. I thought you really genuinely thought that that's. My sarcasm is on point. Wait, so we're, so then on your side, you were flirting with Kate. Yes. And were you like, was this the first time you'd flirted with a woman? No.

No. She'd hooked up with women before. You'd hooked up with women. So this wasn't like surprising to you that you would feel this way about women. No, attraction to women, not a surprise. I'd never been in a romantic relationship with a woman before. And was it just you hadn't met the right person? Or was there a reason for that beyond that?

I just, no offense to any woman that I've hooked up with listening to this podcast. Wow. I have to really preface a lot of. lot of stuff. No, I just never wanted to be with any of them. You know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, we physically had fun together, but it wasn't like, oh, I want to go to brunch with them. I didn't want to go to brunch with them. So did you guys like, I kick him out, you know, hook up at that summit thing? No, no, no, no, no. I mean, because remember, she was married. It was supposed to be a very innocent. You just wanted to flirt a little. Yeah. Because you're like,

she's hot. She was super hot. Yeah. Everyone was trying to flirt with Kate. I won. Yeah, so we stayed in touch and it gets messy because my marriage was doomed before we even got married. There was a lot of issues there. But my marriage was falling apart. We started texting each other every day. And it was like this.

It was actually really romantic because it was like wooing each other through words through text messaging. It used to be letters. But still, we were on our A game. We were funny. We were very witty and trying to banter with each other. And yeah, and then everything blew up and it was chaos. And we found each other when the dust settled.

Pretty much. I know I'm skipping some juicy details, but it just gets like dirty. There was a little bit more drama on that, but yeah. Gotta leave it there. Were you nervous to tell people that you were in a relationship with a woman? Because it was your first time you were being in a full-blown relationship with you? This is the thing I love about Catherine. No.

It was like, whatever. No, I think I was nervous to tell my parents simply. because they had just paid for my wedding. And I knew my dad was going to be like, what the fuck? But I was more nervous because I had had a background where I'd come out when things were very different, you know, like 15 years ago.

How old were you when you came out? It was like 21, you know? So it was like 2003, 2004. Just a different world. Just a different world. And like there was a lot of rejection. And so I kind of hardened to a lot of. of aspects of people that I'm trying to break down, like religion, right? And like the South

and older people. Like there were lots of things where it was like this triumvirate that I saw on Catherine's parents. I'm like, oh my God, she's, because her parents are you, are they religious? No. I mean, I grew up going to Catholic school. I mean, they're Catholics. Yeah. But it was like. And they live in this. They live in Charleston too, right? And she's like an oops baby. So, you know, they're a little bit older. Yeah. How old were they when they had you? My mom was 39 when she had me. Oh, wow. Yeah.

So, you know, they were mid-70s. Yeah. Mid-70s white folks living in Charleston, South Carolina. You know, and I'm like, oh, my God. You know, this is my nightmare of parent situation. And what were they like? They were the best. Oh, my God.

Did they already know Kate? No. Well, it helped that her dad. Is a sports fan? Yeah. And, like, he, you know, he's the president of the American people. Yeah. I mean, Kate was...

I went to a state school and he was a chancellor of a state school, so he was probably happy about that. I mean, the funny thing is with my mom, you know, I told her about Kate. And I sensed for a while there was resistance around it. And I got all fired up one time. And I was just like, look, if you're not okay with me being with a woman, then you just need to tell me. And she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I'm totally cool with you being with the woman. I just don't understand the sex part.

Do people ask you guys about that? Like, especially you coming from a straight, because, like, I think there is a tendency. Even I had the thought to be like, what's the difference between being in a relationship with a woman versus a man? But it's like really what's the difference in being in a relationship with Kate versus the last person, the last person. Like, every relationship is so different.

Yes. But do you get asked that, like, a lot? Maybe a little bit in the beginning. I thought you guys were going to cover that in your sex episode of your podcast. Oh, really? I guess I'm like, is it confusing to people? I think it's confusing to people because straight people define sex is penetration. Sure.

Like even with the whole rape conversations that happen, like there's a tendency for a certain group of people to be like, like I've had friends who are sexually assaulted and they felt bad about being traumatized because there was no penetration. And they're like, oh, I wasn't really raped. Right. Right. And I think in a lot of people's minds, sex equals penetration, period. That's kind of what you're traditionally raised.

That's what you're taught. Yeah. And you're taught that like oral sex is like a workaround. You can keep your virginity. Right. Because you can have oral sex, but you still haven't had sex yet. Yeah. Exactly.

Is that a workaround? I think it's totally a workaround. So you can also keep your virginity. Yeah. I think you're, I would. It's like until the hymen breaks you're a virgin. Yeah. So when you ride horseback when you're 10.

What about just the tip? I mean, just for a second, just to see how it feels. This is a question that like. a lot of my, you know, gay friends will have is like, well, how many people have you slept with? And it's like, what are your definitions? Yeah, exactly. Right.

You're like, well, what if, you know, like penetration is different, right? Right. What is oral sex? Or like when you guys were saying on your podcast, you were talking about the amount of times a month that you had sex, right? Like, does that count anything sexual? No, no. It counts like, I think we probably, like, how many times we have an orgasm, right?

Like, that has to be the definition. That's actually a pretty good definition. That's actually a really nice definition because it assumes that you do achieve orgasm, which I think there's a lot of sexual relationships where that's not even... They could go right here without achieving that. Yeah. And it's almost nice trying. Right.

Yeah. That's interesting. But no, that question to me is like an old... Like, I've always thought of as like, I think my mom asked it like 15 years ago and then your mom asked it. And I've always felt like... And you can't fault people for asking if they have zero experience with it. You know, it's... I think sometimes...

I would get a little bit like, it's not different. Why are you asking me? But at the same time, I'm like, people are curious. And I'm okay with people being curious as long as questions are asked thoughtfully. And answers are given thoughtfully. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. Okay. I want to take a brief, brief break to introduce you guys to a new sponsor who I am so, so, so, so, so excited about.

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incorporate those types of foods into your life. And then, and then finally, Ziette came along and they truly changed the game. First of all, they're a family-owned brand and they're like the sweetest, sweetest family. Whenever I talk to people at the company, it's like real people and they remember real things about my life and they're so, I don't know, you just get the feeling that they're always like making delicious food and then heading out on a magical picnic where they're all like hugging each other and trying to bring healthy food to the world. It just, it feels like genuinely good people with a genuinely good brand. And then beyond that, their food is insane.

I have never had a siete product that I don't like. They're all kind of game changers in their category, but there are a few that have like a special, special place in my heart and in my kitchen. And those are the tortillas and the hot sauces. The tortillas, they have a couple different varieties. They're all completely grain free. They're super clean ingredients. I love reading the ingredient list of siate products.

are like four or five ingredients and you know each one of them and you can understand all of them, which is great. So they have a few different grain-free tortillas. I keep them in my freezer and I take out one tortilla at a time or however many I need at that specific time so that they never go bad and I always have a big stash on hand. So I love the cassava tortilla, which has a little bit more of a chew to it. And I love to use that one for casadillas. I love it for enchiladas.

it doesn't break apart when you roll it. You can kind of warm it up a little bit. And then you can roll it and make something like an enchilada and it won't get that like icky break that ruins everything. So I love the cassava one for that. And then there's also an almond flour one that has a little bit less chew than the cassava, but it also has a very nice texture and a little bit of a sweeter, nuttier flavor. So I love that one too.

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So I would do that with the cashew flour. If I was making maybe something with a breakfast, a breakfast type treat, I would use the cashew tortillas for that. I love them, love them, love them. I use them at least four or five times a week in my kitchen. And then some other products that I like that they make. They make their incredible hot sauces, which are honestly very different than any other hot sauces that I've had before. They're a little bit creamier and they have a little bit more of a weight and a heft to them.

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what does the green hot sauce taste like? Message me on Instagram, at Liz's movies. and I will talk to you for hours about Siette. I love them so much. All right. Let's get back to the episode. I have a few questions that I like to ask everybody that I'd love to ask you guys. What is a purchase that you've made that's made your life healthier or happier?

Something you bought. Oh, Jesus. So you go first. Two things that I always like to talk about. No. Remember this is the rapid fire round. No, nothing I do is rapid fire. She bought a peloton.

Yeah, but that's ridiculous because it's like, no, but it has legit need you. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, it's not very accessible. Be your truth, Kate. We're talking about you, not the people. Yeah, this is you. What's made your life healthier happier?

My peloton has made my life healthier. Okay, so what is a peloton for people who don't know what that is? Because, you know, it's very inaccessible. It's just a home bike where you stream classes that are being spin classes. Spin classes. And is it like banana is expensive? I mean, the bike itself is expensive. The monthly fee is not expensive.

Okay. To actually get the bike is expensive. Did it take you a while to decide that like it was worth it to make the punch? Yeah. It was injury driven because like I was a huge runner for a long time. And I just can't really. My body just can't do that anymore. And I wanted that same sort of cardio high.

And so I would do some spin classes, but I didn't want to be a slave. This is so privileged, but I didn't want to be a slave to like the in-class schedule because it's like sometimes they only have 9 a.m. and then 5 p.m. And what if I want to work out it?

You know, 2 p.m. But it's also like, it's funny that you're even, I don't know, you have money. Why am I apologetic about this? Yeah, like, why are you apologetic about this? It's interesting, especially with this idea of like being everything to all people or something, you know what I mean?

It's just like, why can't you just like buy your fucking spin bike and enjoy the shit out of your spin bike because you have the money to buy your spin bike? and be like, yo, I bought my spin bike. I'm sorry if you can't afford a spin bike. It's my life. This is more of a larger conversation. I mean, for example, when I was at South by Southwest yesterday,

I was wearing this new sweater that I got, and it's from this designer called Sakai, and it's an expensive sweater. And this woman stopped me and was like, that is the greatest sweater I've ever seen. And of course, at first I'm like, great. And she's like, where can I get it? And I'm like, fuck.

Because it is expensive. And you're like, I can't, you can't get it. Well, no, I'm not going to assume that you can't, but like, I just, but you don't want to insult them when, you know, they're, it's like, it's not from Target. It's not an accessible place. Right. And this, I have this, like, Irish Catholic background thing going on, you know, where I have, you know, we have worked hard and we have resources and yet I have a lot of insecurity about what things cost and what I. spend my money on. Do you guys have different approaches to money? Like, I'm more fear based than Kate is. Like fear that you won't have more. I have this fear that I'm going to run out of money

and it's all going to go away, which I definitely inherited from my father. And I have a very, and Kate's more like, we're alive. You can't spend it when you're dead. Like, which is good for me. Well, it's not really good because when she totally convinces me, I'm like, all right, I'll be back. I'm going shopping. Yeah. But like my dad, um, he's a financial advice. visor and he just has seen so many people who come into his office, you know, at age 60. And they are like, well, I want to, like, we want to save up for this thing that we might do. And then they die, you know? And he's seen this on repeat cycle, this idea of like money being this thing that you use later.

And then to a T, you know, whoever's like this about. or whatever is like, we should have spent our money while we had it. And you should especially spend your money when you're young. And you can like, yeah, my dad is financially stable. He just like sold a building that he inherited that's been like the bane of his existence. So he's literally financially stable right now this month for the first time in 14 years. And it's great. But it's also like he's now in his late 60s.

And 14 years ago he wasn't. And he's doing all this stuff now and he still can. But I think it's scary. to be, you know, while your body's young, you should be sailing and hiking and do that kind of stuff. Obviously, there's a balance there between, like, you know, having, being fiscally responsible to some degree. But, like, I am very much of the mindset that, like,

I don't know. If I have 10 more years on the planet, who knows maybe that's a generous amount. Like, I want to make sure that I'm not, like, this 25 grand is for 20 years from now. Does money, how much does money, drive your guys as, I mean, we talked about how much success and like outside affirmation drives your guys as decisions, but how much does like a show, if you got a show on ASPN,

I imagine that's quite lucrative. Yeah. And you said you didn't want that. Or you could be, Catherine, probably making a ton of money if you just double down and you're like, I'm a yogi. I'm going to. Oh, if I start traveling once a week again, I could still have major money. Well, again, we're really lucky that the amount of money that we're making with the things that we

do right now, like, we can live. an excellent life. You know, could we be making more money? Of course we could. But like the success thing, like I think a lot of money is one of those things where you have a little bit and then you want more and then you want more and then you want more. Yeah, I think we've done a good job of balancing that, you know, and this is also the first time in my life that I've ever been in a relationship with someone who is as successful and financially successful as I am. So we finally get to share that. And if I want to travel a little bit less, you know, Kate might take a few more speaking gigs or if she needs to take a break, like, I can take a few more gigs.

And because it's all going into the same pot. Do you guys share money? Yes. Well, I mean, we have our own accounts. Yeah. But, you know. I mean, it's all going to the same stuff. We don't split dinner when we go out.

Yeah. But, I mean, I think to your point, you know, I think as you get older, you start to see the time exchange in money too. Yes, that's a very valid point. So I think for us now, it's like the time exchange, let's say, you know, it's like, do we want an exchange? extra 80 grand next year. All right, Catherine, you have to do, you know, 20 workshops or whatever. Should I do the example that the South by Southwest thing?

Well, whatever is a specific example is, like, with that $80,000, like, the time commitment means that, like, you're going to be gone every other weekend. And what is our, how is our life going to be improved by that 80 grand? Right. So like literally looking at it as an, like, would being together every other weekend be worth more? Yes. then whatever TK thing we could do with 80. Yeah, and I think there's definitely a diminishing returns

when it comes to certain things. It's like once you, you know, it's like, if we each make 100 grand next year, then it's like we can pretty much do anything we want. You know, we're lucky enough we live in Charleston. So like that's a lot more money here than it would be in New York here. And then like after that it's like, do I want to not see you every other weekend

so that we could buy a first class ticket? Yeah. Like that's not an exchange I'm willing to make. So it's like, I think that to me is like once you hit, a certain age. And my dad is like hammer this home to me too. He's like, anything, I will pay any amount of money if the time exchange is there. You know, if that ratio is right. Like when I was 25, I wouldn't have paid the $75 fee to stand by for a three hour earlier flight. Because it was like, that's $75 when you're 25, like, that's more important because you're 25 and you think you

have forever life. But then now I'm like, I will pay $100 to get home three hours earlier. Right. Because I'm like, that's $30 an hour. I would pay that to spend that time with Catherine. So I mean, I think every human kind of goes through those equation changes as they get older. And I think that's kind of where we're at now with money. It's like I don't necessarily need more money if that time equation is off. I also think, I mean, money has so much in tank.

Like I, for my anxiety stuff, I always feel like the more money I have, the more I can like buy my comfort, which is like a medicator I use for my anxiety. So I'm like, oh, if I'm in a hotel room that's noisy and I can't sleep, I can change. And I don't have to worry about that. Or like, if I'm in a foreign country and the buses are crazy, I can like pay for a private car to go somewhere or something like that. So I want money because it makes me feel safe, I think. It helps your mental health to a certain extent. Yeah.

But it's not that also gets me away from having to work on my mental health. Yeah. You know. Well, it's a complicated equation because it's like I need money to buy time. you know right right because it's like like i had you know if you have a flight and it's at 8 p.m. and then the day of you can actually fly out at 10 a.m. and you're like should I buy a new flight right it's like so to have that money buy it very lucky to have these choices well yeah so it's like you need some amount of money to buy the time you know so it's like you kind of have to

replenish one to then replenish the other um and so that's kind of i think that we view it more than like buy a nice house but we don't need a bigger house like there's a lot of things where we're like, no, we don't need that because the time it's going to take us to, like, pay off what that is, it's going to affect our quality of life. Yeah, I love that. What's the second thing that you bought that made you happy? Oh, I just love oat milk so much. The thing that we found in a heartens and cartons of oat milk.

I mean, honestly, this. Oatmilis to last us through the apocalypse. See, I've got it up there. The people probably can't hear you in one. No, no, I'm seeing, she's showing me like 12 containers of old milk. And this scarce, okay? It's Oatley. If anybody wants to sponsor Kate.

Do not break into our house. I'm going to say, we're going to get rungs. And there's another 25 in there. You need to stop. You need to stop. We're going to get robbed. Do you get nervous about running out of oat milk? Do you have like a scarcity mindset around Oatwell?

There is a scarcity. More of brands have now released Oat milk. Those are trash. Okay. Oakley is the best. I mean, honestly, I don't work for them. But like, I forever, I couldn't get off dairy whole milk on my, like, for She was a whole milk out of it.

As a quick side, I know, how do you guys eat? Like, are you, how healthy are you? Like, what do you eat? Well, we do go through pretty intense pizza kicks. Okay. But we eat really fancy. I mean, we're in Charleston. We get to go have, like, gorgeous Neapolitan, you know, imported double zero flour pizza here.

Yeah. So. But, like, do you not eat dairy, Kate? No, she eats dairy. We both dabble in dairy. Okay. We both dabble in a lot of things. But I would say we're very, we try to eat.

Minimal gluten, minimal grain, minimal dairy, minimal animal products. But then sometimes we'll go out and have burgers. We don't like, I particularly do not like strict parameters. I like, I like extreme. Like I would. Yeah, you were today, you were like, I think I need to do the whole 30. Yeah. Like I like, don't do it.

But I think like we don't buy ice cream and chips and like that's not. We don't have snack food. We just, we love really foody dinners, which, you know, you understand. And it's like most of the time those aren't all that healthy when you're going out. That's where we indulgence is going out. But like we're not, you know, it's not like we're going to pop open any, like we just don't have snacks around. And are you, you guys don't have like personal health challenges that you're trying to like use food or lifestyle to overcome, are you? I have really bad sinuses.

Okay. So I, I'm, we're doing like a little cleanse now where we're cutting a bunch of stuff out. And I am going to be curious to see once I'm very strict about. out my dairy and gluten intake. It's going to clear up my sinuses a little bit. Because that's been my biggest problem my entire life. It's, I was a C-section baby, plus I was formula. And I wasn't swabbed.

I didn't get any microbiomes. I know. I was just like, Dad, you guys could have swab me, and you also could have raised me speaking another language. You kind of really dropped the ball on all of the thing. It's all right. I can't wait till our kid thinks that everything is all uproft to. Wait, so what have you bought, Catherine?

To make your wellness world better. No, her life healthier, happier, not her wellness world better. Do you know what I thought was something that's made my life happier and healthier? You're a peppermint halo oil? I love my essential oils. Okay. I'm an essential oil junkie. That is the one thing that I don't find trendy or kitschy in the wellness world.

I legit, if I have my oil, I immediately feel better. What do you use it for? It depends on the oil. Like, peppermint is my... Peppermint is the best. It fixes everything. I use it for headaches. I like grab it on my teeth.

temples for headaches, which I love. Nausea when you're in like the back of the cab or you're landing on a plane. Do you just smell it or do you actually? I put it in my tongue and then take a couple deep inhales. I put a little right here below my nose so I'm smelling it for a while if I'm like on a plane and I get really motion sick. Yeah. So peppermint's legit and I'm like I would be the least likely person to buy you.

I don't think you can use peppermote oil when you're pregnant. Bullshit. I know. Well, you'll be pregnant not me so I can keep using mine. Catherine's getting pregnant first, yeah? Well, I don't know. I am going to try. Yes.

And you guys found a sexy, rich, smart sperm donor? I don't know about rich. I know about all the relatives. He's Korean? Yeah. So you're going to have a little Korean baby? A little half Korean baby. Oh my gosh.

My niece and nephew were both Korean. And we thought it would just be a nice way to connect the family even more. That's really cute. Yeah. That's really cute. Okay. So you have essential oils as your- Wait, so what's the one thing that's made your life better?

You want me to guess? Essential oils? Yeah, I guess. You guess. No, that wasn't the right guess. Although she liked, that's been around for a long time. Oh, I wasn't sure if you had like something in your mind or. No, I do the thing that you've been rubbing on your sinuses. Oh, I've been doing a lot of guasha lately. I love guasha. I could run through a list of like little things that I think have been improving her life. Oh, yeah, no, let's hear the Cape Fagan top five things that Catherine does that improves her life. And then I don't have to talk. I love it. Your beauty chocolates. Oh, my Sakara beauty chocolates. Okay. The college, they have college in the night. Yeah, the Sakara probiotics. Chocolates and the Beauty Chocolates I love. Okay. So I still haven't hit it yet?

No, you're doing the top five. You're not going to win because I don't know what it is. I just want to know what you're doing. You're just doing the top five things that have improved Catherine Beauty's life. Yeah. Keep going. Keep going. The under eye masks that you put on on the plane, the little tiny gels that help your...

What brand is that? Honest Hazel. Honest Hazel, under eye masks? It's cactus collagen. Cactus collagen. Okay. Well, you don't appear to have under eye bags at all. Oh, bless you.

bless you. This is her number. I think this is like your number one. That's like one my number one. Me too. I actually have a thing that I think celebrities look good in photos because they don't appear to have under eye back. I think that like it makes you look.

It's all I see when I see photos of myself. Like done versus not done if you have under eye bags versus that. Chin up when you get photographed to never chin down. Oh. Yeah. Well, I do that anyways because my double chin is like my insecurity for photos. It kills me. Well, yeah, chin up.

I'm telling you because then the light hits in a good way. All right. The brush that you use. before you get in the shower. You're strung toward your heart. And it's all coming back to my sinuses, basically. Toward your heart. Yes.

Okay. And I've tried to use it. Like, I get out of the shower. I'm like, oh, I'll do that. She's like, no, you have to use it before you get in the shower. You missed the boat, Kate. You missed your opportunity. You know Tom Brady uses that thing?

Tom, I mean, have you seen his wellness routine? It's intense. It's very. So I'm not telling you anything you don't know. He does a lot of stuff and doesn't eat a lot of stuff too. Yeah. He's scared of night shit. Yeah, he is scared of my chis.

He's terrified of them. He has, like, nightmares about them. Are magnesium juice? Juice? Chues. No. I haven't really been using those for a while. You still really like the magnesium chuse.

Yeah. I think you have two left. No, what? I've done a lot. If we started a central oil. No, you failed at the magnesium chew one. Oh, that's not a thing. That doesn't count.

And you've only named wellness-y stuff. I thought that's what... Healthy or happier. What's made her happiest, Kate? What does she bought this made her super happy? I know. Listen, she's all like, my wife is a yoga teacher and I'm going to talk like it. I know.

I'm going to name all the things that we do that you do and then I watch happen. Catherine has a yoga mat. Healthy and happy. I love happy. What does she does that makes her really happy? What does she bought that makes her really happy? I think clothes make you really happy, like fashion stuff. We were just in Paris and Kate bought me a truly stunning dress that I never would have

bought for myself from one of our favorite designers. And it made me very happy because I've been stalking it for months. and it's kind of like visiting a museum and being like, huh. And she just, I tried it on when we were in Paris and she's like, I'll buy it for you. I'm like,

what are you talking about? She's like, let me buy it for you. And I was like, okay. And I love it. And I treasure it. Is it like,

do you need like a special occasion type of dress? No, that's the great thing about it. It's like an average. You can just wear it. I could wear it really fancy or I could dress it down. And I love that. I love the versatility.

You love Outlander. And I do. So a TV subscription. Netflix brings me, makes me a favorite. Yeah. I'm missing anything? Is there something that's like on your mind that...

The last person I interviewed said her vibrator. Oh, shit. Is she using it to masturbate? Yes. Wow. You know, like we have that thing. One plus one. Yeah, but I think vibrator, I wouldn't call her massage gun a vibrator.

A massage gun? What's that? Below my clit off. Well, you wouldn't use it down there, I guess. It's just a, it's actual gun and it mimics a massage. But you, you know, but you're like, below, you. you can just kind of like a button deep tissue it's a hypervolve oh your furbo oh my god yes that makes you super oh my god that does okay we just got a furbo good work what is that um it's over there it's a thing

that looks like a vase yeah yeah yeah so it's this white kind of it looks like if a vase in an essential oil machine had a baby or like a vase and a coffee maker yeah yeah it's it's called a furbo so the little hole in the bottom of it is where you can shoot dog cookies out and then above it has a camera and I have an app so when we're gone I can turn on the furbo and see what's happening there's a microphone that I can hit and be like get the hell off of the sofa Kiona and then I can push the cookie button when you're not there we've actually if you turn that thing on and you say something they both get up and they come over and I can push the cookie button and it has a recorded my voice recorded being like who wants a cookie oh my god

shoots a cookie out. That's amazing. Yeah. I love that. So when we were last gone and after we had gotten this is like Catherine just like, every time I looked over, she'd be like just proof of life, right? Like, where are the puppies? Can we see them? Yeah, we always.

She doesn't understand where the cookies come on yet. Her brain is normally very big. No, she's actually really smart because when she hears my voice, she goes to the window or the door thinking that, you know, machines haven't taken over the world yet and that we're going to walk through the door. That's very sweet. I think so. That's very sweet. understands that that machine is where the cookies come from. But actually she's a purist.

She's experiencing digital minimalism. Yeah, that's right. She's like, she's like, she's still wants... She wants... She doesn't want to be talked through. I don't want this bullshit machine cookie.

What's one really big mistake you've made in your life and what's something you got right? I mean, mistakes are a curious statement, right? Because I don't know if I really think anything's a mistake. That's part of the question. I know. Because I was about to say my first marriage, but then if I hadn't done that,

I don't think I would be here right now with cake. Really? Butterfly effect. Yeah. I just, but also the lessons that I learned through that experience prepared me to want real love and real connection. And I needed that. I would never want to go through that relationship again. But so it's like a big mistake in air quotations.

But it's also, it's what I needed. It was integral to my experience. I don't know. I don't. I mean, this sounds so like, ha, ha, ha, ha, I don't believe in mistakes, but I really don't. I don't know. Maybe you just need to evolve more with stuff to really feel like that. But I have definite, like, things that I, like, wish I did different my life.

And I'm like, my life would be better off now if I hadn't done that. And maybe, like, it's when, like, I think the events that led to my, like, very extreme anxiety period is, like something that I, like, I beat myself up for all of the time. And maybe. Which I'm sure is something in your anxiety. And you've probably talked through that before, right? On this podcast, like people know what you're talking about. No, I don't think so. But it was just basically I moved to London and I quit my job and I was writing a book.

So I completely isolated myself. So I, like, didn't interact with people all day. Like, Zach would go to his graduate program and then he'd come home at, like, midnight. And I would have written all day and not talk to anybody. And I think if I'd literally just, like, gone and gotten a job and formed a community in London, I would have had such a different experience. And maybe when I'm more like evolved, I'll be like, I'm so grateful for this like period of extreme anxiety

because it taught me so much about myself. But right now I'm like, that sucked. Like I wish I hadn't felt like that. But I feel like some of that is kind of outside of your control. I mean, there's plenty of parts of my life when I look back. And I'm like, I was miserable and this was so hard. And I wouldn't want to live through them again. But it's also just kind of the path that my life was taking me through.

And, you know, sometimes you're in the flow of the river. Sometimes you're stuck in the bank, and sometimes you're, like, straight up, like, not even close to the mud. You're just, like, sitting on the dry part, fully clothed. We're just really going with that metaphor, like, all the way through. Which, but I really think it feels like we don't, we don't live in a world that, like, is, like, it's cool when you're on the banks of the mud. Right, because you're always supposed to be in the flow, man.

Yeah, you're always supposed to. Yeah. And we put that part really up on a... It's like, we all want to. Yeah. It doesn't come with an instructional manual. You know, we all want to be happy. We all want to be in the flow.

We all want to be content. And we're all striving for it. But you do have to spend those big chunks of time stuck on the bank in order to muck your way back to the muck. And then eventually, hopefully you find a freaking floaty and get going. That's great. That was really a wonderful metaphor. You can just float down the river on a tire. Okay.

So what's something you really got right, Catherine? You can't both say each other. I'm not going to say each other. Ashi. No, I mean, the corny answer for sure is my wife. And it's not corny. It's true. But I think the one thing that I finally gotten right is I've started to listen to that voice inside of me that's wanted to change for a really long time with my career.

And I've just been fearful of change. And I've just finally reached a point where I'm like, I know I've wanted to change for years. What am I waiting for? And it's hard because it's. I mean, I have moments of like, I'm going to be forgotten. I'm going to be left behind. You know, I've carved out this career and I'm just blowing it up. But it's also like, I haven't been content with it for a long time.

And I'm finally just like, fuck it. It's time to change. And I'm probably going to, I already have lost a lot of people along the way that we're, you know, readers, followers, fans, students, whatever you want to call them. And it's just part of the shedding of the skin and reforming, you know. The Phoenix Rising. Yeah, that's better than a snake. I don't like snakes very much.

It's really brave. I mean, I do think it's really hard. I think both of you, I'm in awe of both of you, and the bravery it takes to not just be like, this is what I'm told will make me happy. What do I think will make me happy? It's such a long process to get there. Like, really, really long, for both of us, don't you think?

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's still. It's still happening. Yeah, it's like you just make decisions daily where you're like. But we're good at pulling each other back. She's really good at pulling me back in when I start to, when I'm not on my unicorn floaty anymore. And I'm like, mm-hmm, and she gets the rope and pulls me back in. Yeah.

I live a good metaphor. Okay. What about you? The only, like, mistakes I can really think of are more interpersonal. Like, the one that pops into my mind that is that, like, when my parents and I, when I came out, we kind of had the number of years where, like, things were a struggle because I think they just had a different picture of what my life would be like, and I wasn't behaving well because I was, you know, lying a lot because I knew that they didn't approve of certain, not approve, but they just like, there's some

sort of disconnect happening. And at one point we had like this huge blow up. And against my better judgment almost, like I wrote them like a five page letter where I was just like, like, they had been mean to me and judgmental of me and I just like turned it right back on them. And it was like, And I still think about, I mean, they've apologized and I've apologized, but like, I think I hate that I put it in writing. Because, like, not that I think they would be glutton's for punishment, but, like, my mom could go read that letter again tomorrow. And, like, I just hate, like, it was one of those things that you just should have said

in person. And, like, I was just mad about so many things. And I was right to be mad about a lot of things. But I just shouldn't have sent it in a fucking email. because I just hate now that like I know that that's like it exists and I just like I hate that so I think that's the one thing that like when I really think about what like there's no it's not like oh but I grew from that you know we're like oh our relationship is strong we're like our relationship is fantastic right now but like not because of the letter yeah and I just hate that like every

I think about it existing and I'm like well in the same vein of what I talked about my like mistake being I think what I've gotten right is that like I think when you make certain mistakes, especially with your parents and your siblings and like that, that, like, family, a lot of times you can let those little forks in the road become mile-long separations. And I think what I've really gotten right over the last couple of years is, like, putting in a lot of work and a lot of effort to make sure that the people who I love, where I have fucked up along the way, like, I have really put in the time to, like, drive those relationships back together.

And, you know, you can let, when you say certain things, like, you can be, become so shameful that you said the thing that, like, you don't want to revisit it. And I, I think I've gotten right that, like, I was willing to go back to that, um, with the people that who are, like, really most important to me. Well, thank you guys so much for taking the time to have me over and have an incredibly long conversation. I love them. I just love how open and honest and thoughtful they are. And I love their dynamic. I love how they call each other out, but they support each other. And I don't know, they just, to me, have such a great relationship. I know that you don't see everything of the behind the scenes and all of that, but I really think

that they are relationship goals and the way that they work through things. And I don't know. I love it. As always, if you love this episode, please, please, please head over to iTunes or wherever you listen and give it a five-star review and a comment, a rating, or whatever they call, all of that. It makes a huge difference in helping other people find the podcast. And also, I like to read them because then I feel like people are listening.

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