The Liz Moody Podcast - Liz Moody & Zack Mitchell — The Secret To A 10 Year Relationship, Dating A Partner With Anxiety & Getting Healthier Together

Episode Date: June 20, 2018

Welcome to the first ever episode of the Healthier Together podcast. On this episode, you’ll meet Liz Moody, the host of this podcast (that’s me!). I’m the author of Glow Pops and the upcoming Healthier Together cookbook (Clarkson Potter, April 2019). A former newspaper columnist, I spent years traveling the world, studying cooking in Italy and Argentina, going to sommelier school in France, and living with a healer in the mountains of Morocco. Now, I’m the Food Director at mindbodygreen, one of the world’s leading wellness websites. On my own site, lizmoody.com, I share wellness tips and healthy recipes, like the strangely viral Super Healthy Snickers Pie. On this episode, I’m joined by her husband of two years and partner of ten, Zack. Zack’s a rock-climbing entrepreneur with a soft spot for our pet cat, Isabella. To kick off the Healthier Together Podcast, we discuss their own wellness journeys (mine involved smoking cigarettes and a lot of Ben & Jerry’s) and how we got, well, healthier together. We also talk about what it’s like for Zack to deal with my anxiety; the best way to make new habits stick; meditation; the healthiest diet; the secret to real relationship success; how to get your partner to be healthier (even if they really don’t want to) and so much more. For every episode of the Healthier Together podcast, there will be a corresponding giveaway and a challenge based on some of the guest’s shared wisdom—one week we might meditate, and another we might try a new skincare routine or tweak our diets, all in the name of actually getting healthier together (versus just listening to a podcast). Come join in (and enter to win!) on Instagram @lizmoody, or using the hashtag #htpodcast. Enjoy! Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Oh my gosh. I feel like I have been waiting so long to say this, but hello friends and welcome to the first ever healthier together podcast episode. The Healthier Together podcast is all about coming together and sharing our knowledge to live happier, healthier lives. And this is the very first one. So welcome, welcome, welcome. Each episode, I will have a guest and I have some amazing guests lined up this season. I have bestselling authors. I have world famous doctors. I have world famous doctors. award-winning chefs, TV and movie stars. I have a celebrity hypnotist, so much more. I have really, really great people that I'm very excited about you guys meeting and getting to enjoy their deep workings of their brilliant minds. And we're going to talk about everything. We're going to talk about food, beauty, wellness, travel, meditation. We're going to talk about how to generally live our best lives. And we'll also get into dealing with bad stuff because that's often the stuff that gets in the way of us living our best lives. So we'll talk about, I have an episode about grief coming up. I also have one about anxiety, which has been one of my biggest struggles in

my own personal life. We talk about finding success. Some of the people I talk to are incredibly successful and it's impacted their lives in good ways, but also in not so good ways. So we get into that and how you find success and how you deal with it when you get there. We talk about dealing with chronic disease. We have some really powerful autoimmune stories. and people making themselves feel better through a lot of natural means and also the journey to get there. So that's really interesting. And I'm really excited to share all of that with you guys.

In case you're wondering who the heck I am, my name is Liz Moody. And I've been a journalist since I was 16 years old when I walked into my local newspaper office and I told them that they should have a column for teenagers and it should be written by me. I was kind of annoying. Yes. but it worked. My life motto is to never be the one to say no to yourself. So this was the first example of that really paying off in my own life. I love journalism because it gives me carte blanche to ask fascinating people all of the questions that I want to know. I'm also a healthy food person.

I'm the food director at MindBody Green, which is an amazing wellness website. So for most of my working day, I'm going through cookbooks, interviewing chefs and doctors and generally staying abreast of every single food trend and study that comes out, which is all to say I know a lot about healthy food and healthy diets and all of that. I've also written two cookbooks. Glow Pops, which is all healthy popsicles, is out now. It came out last summer. And you can find it at most bookstores across the country. And then my second book comes out in April 2019. And it's called, Wait for It, Healthier Together. It's all about coming together in the kitchen, whether it's with a friend, a colleague, a family member or romantic partner to create food that'll make you look and feel

amazing. It's like the podcast and that it's all about us being better off together in terms of health and happiness, but you do not need a partner of any sort to listen to this podcast. You and me and my guests of the week, that's the together that we're referencing in the healthier together here. Finally, the last defining thing about me that I feel like I should tell you right off the bat is that I am a searcher. I am a person who is always reading and talking to people and trying to find these bits and pieces that will make life feel more fulfilling and whole and will help me milk the most out of every single moment. So the podcast is all about that. It's about seeking out answers and new questions that can help us live in a more meaningful and intentional and

satisfying way. So I don't want to just have this amazing information. And it's really so good. Honestly, every single episode that I have done has changed my life in some sort of real, tangible, noticeable way. So I'm so so excited for you guys to hear them. But I don't want you guys to just listen and have everything kind of go in one year and out there. the other. I want you guys to feel like your lives are being changed too, and I want more impetus to change my own life. So I thought it would be fun to do a little challenge for each episode. I love feeling like I'm embarking on life changes with other people and having a community around that. So I thought it would be fun. For each episode, I'll take one salient bit of

wisdom and I will turn it into a challenge. So for one week, we might try a certain skincare technique or one week we might make a certain dietary tweak or try a different type of meditation or way of channeling our creativity. And we can do these things based on the things that my guests say. And hopefully we can all support each other and be healthier together. I might say it a lot. It comes up once you start saying healthier together. You work it into your regular conversation, which is very much annoyed my husband. But you can always find the challenge on Instagram at hashtag HT podcast. H.T. is like healthier together. And then you can find it on my page at Liz Moody and I'll share the challenge for every episode. I'll also be doing a giveaway for each episode on Atlas Moody,

whether it is a book that my guest has written or a product that they love. So be sure to check over there for all of that. I'm releasing the first three episodes together right now this week, if you're listening. So there's only going to be one challenge for the three of them. So but it's, It's a good one, I promise. So come on over to Liz Moody at Liz Moody on Instagram or HT Podcast to do it with me. And if you're listening to this later, then just come on over anyways because there will be a different challenge and I'm sure it will be just as amazing. So come hang out, come do it with me and we'll see if we can change our lives.

Who knows? My first guest, who I'm very excited to introduce, is very near and dear to my heart because as it is my husband, Zach. Zach is the person who has anchored my own healthier together journey, which we talk about in here. When he met me, I was smoking cigarettes and eating a lot of splendor and generally just kind of a gross person. And he helped me turn into the vegetable lover that I am now.

So we talk about that in here. We also talk about how to get your partner to do something that you know is good for them, even if they really don't want to do it. We talk about my anxiety and the effect that that's had on our relationship. We talk about the mantra that's helped him find success in his life. We talk about three things that he thinks are key to living a healthier life. And we talk about how to tell of wellness stuff is total bullshit or actually worth trying. We also get into our relationship a lot.

It's a fun episode if you are a voyeur like me. Or it's fun because Zach's interesting. He's a little bit outside of the wellness world. but he's so he's a little bit more skeptical. He's not going to like come in and be like, oh my God, I found this new crystal. You have to try it.

He'll be like, well, what are the studies on crystals? And like, what are some really use cases of crystals? And I like that perspective on wellness. I think it's interesting to see that. And it's fun.

He's also a really big problem solver. He works in startups. And I think of him as kind of like a visionary and a universal problem. My dad thinks of him as a knight, which I think is funny, like a modern day night. But I think of him as a problem solver.

Like if the air conditioning is broke, he will fix it. If the oven is crooked, he will fix it. He did that. I'm looking around my apartment. And these are things that he's fixed in my apartment. If you need shelves to go up, he'll do that. If your computer's being wonky, he'll do that, which my mom will often text him about. So that's fun.

So he's a general problem solver. And sometimes he applies that problem solving to his own life, which I think you get to do. You hear him do in this podcast, which I think is really, really fun. So I think you will enjoy this one. Thank you guys so much for joining me on this journey. I am really, really excited to see where it's going to take us all. And if you do like the episode, I would really, really, really appreciate it if you would subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or wherever else you're listening.

It's super important, especially in these sort of early days of the podcast to help other people find it. So if you do take the time to do so, I'm infinitely appreciating. And if you let me know on Instagram, I'll send you lots of heart emojis. And yeah. All right. Let's get into it. This is the first ever healthier together podcast episode.

All right. Welcome to the healthier together podcast guest, my first ever guest. Can you please state your name? Hello. My name is Zach Mitchell. And who the fuck are you, Zach Mitchell? Virtually nobody. You might know me best as Liz Moody's husband.

I think most people know me best in that way. Yeah? Is that how you introduce yourself publicly? Generally. Yeah, especially when it's people who are important or who might someday be important. I'm like, hey, Zach Mitchell. Like if you met Obama, you would be like, hey, I'm Jack Mitchell is Moody's husband and he would be like, oh my God, Liz Moody. Obama is a great choice with that.

I eat glow pops every day. Exactly. Because Michelle likes them, I think. Yeah, I'm sure she does. Michelle, if you're listening, I'd all send you all the cookbooks. I'm your biggest fan. I thought it would be really fun to have Zach on the podcast on my first ever episode because he's sort of the origin for my own healthier together story. I write about it in my new cookbook, but he was the person who really got me interested in health in the first place, which is kind of exciting for me to share that origin story.

I think a lot of people think that I was healthy as a kid, that I was raised on kale and quinoa, which I interviewed some people later in this season that definitely were. Phoebe Lepine and Lily from Kale and Caramel. And I'm kind of jealous of them for that. Lily used to like go into her backyard and pick mangoes in Hawaii. So I wasn't quite quite that blessed. I was raised on some microwave hot dogs and whipped cream. And my mom would cook for us, but she she's more like an eat to live person. Yeah, I think the first thing you cooked for me where I was like, oh, this is technically food, I suppose.

was oatmeal, which is technically food. And it looked from the outset, like, real delicious. And it's healthy. Oatmeal's a health food. Sure. I think it had, like, freeze-dried berries or something equally exotic in it, you know, some maybe future. I think they were just frozen.

I don't think I knew what freeze-dried was at the time. Fair enough. And I remember going to get that first bite and just being, like, I think shocked and appalled were both technical terms. Because it was so delicious. Yeah. No, because it was pure artificial sweeteners. It was all sucralose.

And I had, I think I had to. For those of you who are less scientifically inclined than Zach. Yeah. Yeah. The yellow packet? The yellow packet of doom. I had like a pound bag, which if you knew how light this stuff was, you would, the size is like the size you'd buy like a dog food bag in.

Trying to picture like a dog food bag full of splendid. Yeah, I had it. I used it in everything. I had stopped at the border with it. It was very confusing. No, I put it in everything because I had such a sweet tooth. So like my evolution was in high school, I kind of was the kid who could eat whatever I wanted.

So I would show off that. I would go to Coldstone and I would get the cake batter ice cream and the bucket size with two brownies and cookie dough. And I would eat the whole thing. And I would be like, oh my gosh, isn't it so cool how I can like eat so much and stay so skinny and I like wasn't that skin it's kind of like skinny fat you know like the people who eat really terrible but you can't comment on that they're 17 essentially and then I went to college and that sort of caught up with me and so I went completely the other direction and I was like I'm

going to consume no calories every day I'm going to eat mostly Splenda and I bought all those diet cookbooks and I think and I smoked a lot of cigarettes because that I was like that'll help me lose weight and it'll help me look really cool which it does unfortunately it's not good for you also. Yeah, it works for a few years and then. Yeah. In other ways. Yeah.

But I think that's what you met me in the middle of. I was like eating very low calorie and I was smoking cigarettes and I was kind of in my like party, party girl phase of life. It's good. You were charming. Yeah. Yeah. But you came from a very different background.

So why do you tell me. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I grew up in Berkeley and like my, I guess middle school was lucky enough to have Alice Waters edible schoolyard kind of whole program there. So there was like a kitchen. We learned to cook. There was a huge productive garden on like the top of the the. So Alice Waters is though she's a chef and the owner of Chezponese and she sort of is credited with inventing California cuisine, which is very ingredient forward. It's heavy on vegetables and fruits. And it's really like about enjoying the flavor of the bounty of the earth. And so she started these edible

school yard programs where she would essentially teach kids to like gardening or to like vegetables or what was the point of it? I think it was to just understand what the kind of the the the the core I mean quote unquote correct but like like what a normal food process looked like at least maybe earlier in time and also maybe from a more science and health perspective like making like making real food vegetables for the most part and actually turning that turning that into food is something that I think a lot of people a lot of young people aren't necessarily. exposed to, or there are a number at least that don't get to be supposed to, you being a

fantastic case and point. But you didn't like vegetables from the beginning. Your mom is always talking about how picky of an eater you were. And she, she takes credit for what a good eater you are now, because she's like, I never forced him. I let him come to it on his own. That is, that is exactly that. That is true. Well, my mom, my mom grew up as a vegetarian in a time and, and parts of the, parts of the country that was very like weird. Yeah, like unacceptable. Yeah, including within her own family.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So she would, she tells stories of having to be like kept at the dinner table because she wouldn't eat, you know, some liver or steak or something like that. And that just being like really rough. And then she'd like go hide out in her room and eat entire bag of like baby carrots. Until she turned orange.

She turned orange. Yeah, she turned orange. Yeah, that was same as me. I had a three. I was always a really picky eater. I actually think a lot of, I have a theory that a lot of people who end up developing recipes or working in the food world later in life start as picky eaters because they have a need to create stuff on their own.

There's some science. There might be some other science behind that too. People are picky eaters often because young kids have really sensitive. Oh, because they're hypertasters. Well, they have really sensitive taste buds and stuff that tastes like normal to us might taste like very strong or weird to them. I'm a supertaster. Let's call it that.

Yeah. Do you want to say it? Would you like a quote that I say, my wife, Liz Moody, is a supertaster. I just want to have some credit. But words of affirmation are my love language. That is true. But yeah, so I was a really picky eater and we had a three bite rule at my dinner table and my mom because she was very, she was like health conscious but in a sort of different

way, a way that was like trendier at the time. But she'd eat a lot of fish. And I fish was like fish make me throw up. I think I have like a mild allergy to fish. They make me throw up. So I'd sit at the table until like midnight trying to eat my three bites of fish. and it made me hate my life. Sorry, Mom.

You know what they say? The fish just gets better with time. It usually sitting out. It only gets better over like six hours. They say that. So, well, but do you credit? Was there one day where you woke up? Because your mom says you ate what,

you ate like one weird big potato. It was a baked potato soup or cheese soup or something? Come again. I don't know. What's the end of the sentence? That you ate. Like you only eat a few foods as kids. Oh, no.

Yeah, there are a few foods. My mom bless her. has probably made more bean and cheese burritos, like refried pinto bean and cheese burritos, uh, than, then, then a lot of people.

She, I have eaten a lot of those. I ate those. I love bagels and cream cheese. Um, those two things. But it's funny because when you tell like your, when you tell your origin story,

which always leads to my healthier origin story, it's like, oh, well, I was raised in Berkeley. So I was like, varying vegetables. This is me as a kid in like elementary school.

But like when were you like, when was your like, come to Jesus moment with vegetables. Because when I met you, you were cooking on our second date, I went over to your house and you made me Manhattan's, which are not so healthy. But then you also, you were like, these bitters are going to really help with your digestive systemless. I appreciate you being so concerned.

But then you made me these like fritters and a salad from a macrobotic cookbark, which I was just like, what is going on here? That's true. So, yes, you were that person by the time I met. you, but where was the in between? College. College was great. I mean, we met, Liz and I met our last year of college.

Your last year. My last year and your stretchier. Yeah, I was kind of a schmoe. So I was writing my newspaper call at the time. So I'd go to college for a semester and then I'd go travel for a semester and write about it and then come back and go to college. And it was great. But it was very slow.

So, I mean, yeah, I think I transitioned from in college from meeting like, probably as I was graduating high school, I used to row in high school throughout all of it. So most of my considerations growing up through that portion of my life was like calorie count. And getting like getting enough like, yeah, carb loading. Did you, you didn't think about like healthiness of the food at that time to be. He was a top. He was on one of the best rowing teams in the country. You were.

You were the fourth best boat. I'll let, I'll let various people who can fact check that. The fourth best lightweight. boat, right? We went, we competed in the, like the high school nationals. But it was lightweight. And I was, yeah, I was, because I was picture the heavyweight crew people to be like, oh. And you're not like, oh. Yeah, no, I like to say my, I'm like, oh. Yeah. I'm like, oh, it's really how you deliver the grunts. But you weren't thinking about like, oh, I should eat a lot of vegetables so I can like take care of my cells or like healthy fats from my mitochondria or anything like that.

You're just like spaghetti for carbs. Spaghetti for carbs. Yeah. And then. When I went to college, I was like, ooh, Costco for price. And I remember, like, with my roommates, we go to Costco and just buy, like, a lot of, like, frozen meat and chicken and some of that. But we would cook for ourselves every single night. And I think it was, I think for me, it's the process of cooking that was the transition into actually giving more of a darn about the food I was eating. And then from there, actually building up kind of a palate surrounding it. So I think my, I mean, myself was more just about the independence of being. like, oh, wow, I'm actually having to, like, you know, create my own food every, every night.

But there are a million boys or men people. Yeah, let's just say people. So it's like, when does a boy become a man? And that was like a whole different probably topic of conversation. We'll cover that in a different. There's a million people who cooked their way through college and never ended up cooking from a macrobatic cookbook. So is it just where? The real question is like, where did I get this cookbook? Where did you get the cookbook? No, but like, and then interest in vegetables. Like I remember when we first started eating to you, like, took me to the farmer's market and we're like picking out local greens and then we'd go home and cook them. And it was this whole awakening for me around the concept of vegetables tasting good. And you, I credit you wholly with that for me.

And this is, I think, where the whole like growing up in Berkeley, growing up with like the edible schoolyard growing up with like beautiful farmers markets everywhere and stuff like that. Like, that's really where that takes hold is I don't think I ever thought about it at the way that you thought about it. And actually, maybe the contrast is how it became, like, prominent in, in even you recognizing it and maybe even becoming a, somebody who is interested in, like, healthy food. But for me, I was like, well, there, yeah, I have this macrobatic cookbook because it was at, like, uh, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's any number of like awesome local bookstores around like the, the college campus. And, like, like, kind of crunchy ones. What's the book? What's the, what?

What was the, the, anyway. I don't know. Regardless. I remember going in there and being like, macrobotic, what the heck is that? And reading through it. And I read a recipe that was literally just about adding soy sauce to carrots and like having that just be like a perfect dish. And I was like, bold, bold move book adding like soy sauce to carrots.

And I went home and I was like, that was the best carrot I've had. Okay. Good. Fine. So, I mean, for me, it was more like being open to the idea in the first place, I think is what kind of just. And that type of exposure was what made me a healthy enough eater. Did you like the idea of being healthy?

No, I didn't care. When did you start to care? As I started getting older. Is there an age where you like awakened to your own mortality in a way that made you care about being healthy? Yes, after college. So I mean, and that, I mean, I know, Liz and I were dating, so she's lived through some of this. But like I graduated, we graduated right about the. the time of the, that, that, you know, that small recession situation that affected a few people,

various, various ways. And I had a really hard time finding a job right out of school. I remember graduating early 2008, taking the summer off. I like sent him a job, like job applications, got a bunch of positive offers. I was like, sweet, this is going to be a cakewalk, going to get a job. When you had very much been like top of your class, like you were like a lauded students. So I think you'd been praised so much that the idea that that wouldn't kind of continue on post college was probably. I was definitely brainwashed to think that I was great. Yeah.

But don't worry. Don't worry. This story has a happy ending. And then, but yeah, basically after that summer, like the bottom of the economy fell out and new crowds are very hard to come by, especially in the areas I was working in. And I struggled for months to find a job. And when I finally did find a job, I, like, worked my tail off to keep it. be respected in it and to hopefully, you know, build some sort of career.

And I kind of felt like I looked up like two years later. I'm like, holy heck. Like I've been sitting. And I'm like young. I'm still like in my 20s. I was like I've been like sitting at a desk every day, which is such a different lifestyle. And I suddenly felt like I had like aged very, very quickly. And was like totally out of shape and just like things.

Yeah. I remember you not like in your body at that point. And like. Oh yeah. I remember being like, wait a minute. Like I had like. I had like a six-pack two years ago. What happened? And and then being like, oh, right, offices. People talk about this sitting at a desk, looking at a computer all day. Like that thing is real. And, you know, I think most people find to fight against that. They can't just like live in, they can't just like live kind of passively. And hope for the best. They have to actually take active, active kind of. So what did you do? like all of the normal stuff normal is really different for everybody good point here um i think i started

working out more obviously and i never recommend anybody not you know exercise a lot which is great i mean i've always i've done all sorts of um exercise but i have always been a very big fan of rock climbing um and yoga which are the two things and cycling which three things that i probably do the the most and all three those things together. I think of as like, you know, like the complete protein of, of my personal, like exercise kind of situation. But you go for runs like once a year. Yeah, running for me. Running for me is like, is like all of the worst things about working out except for the few times that I'm really like in the mood to run. And someday I was just like wake up and it'll be five in. I'm like, you know what? Today's run day. Right. Today is a day that I'm going to wake, that I'm going to feel

amazing running. And then I don't. And then later I do. But whatever, like, whatever gets you out of bed in the morning to do that type of stuff is great. But like, I've never been somebody who can sustain running for any long period of time, like day to day, day, day to day. But I have loose ligaments, so I'm not supposed to run according to my osteopath. Well, how nice do you don't have that guilt? How nice of you to be free of, like, feeling like you should just go for a run? And then did you change your diet? Did you stop, you know, drinking with your colleagues after work all the time?

No. No. Well, I changed my diet, but not the, not the second part. Not a matter. Okay. Grabbing a beer after work is important, important social. It's important. And, but yeah, no, I mean, definitely, I think, I think, I mean, again, you were there. But I know switching from, I remember. It was a long time ago.

I mean, switching from like takeout. I think actually the biggest thing was cooking one's own lunch, eating lunches out. I think is like the greatest way. to just destroy whatever kind of healthy diet you're looking to maintain. But, I mean, it also saves a bunch of money and everything else like that. Yeah, we've been doing it recently a lot better. And I like the approach of just like making one meal Sunday night and then eating that all week until you get really bored and want to kill yourself.

As long as you don't ruin all the food in the fridge. Yeah, we had a pot pie incident. Pot pie disaster. We had a pot pie incident this week where Zach made this huge pot pie in the lex crusay raising pan. So it's like cast iron. It's what is? No, it's like it's like a foot and a half across.

I'm looking at it now. It's like it's like it's like 16 inches. So he made this pie and then it was done at like midnight because that's how we do our Sundays. Sure. And I was asleep and he put the pie in the fridge and then I woke up in the morning and the fridge we have a a fridge thermometer and the fridge was in the danger zone. It was at 45 degrees.

And I was like, oh no, that means it was at 45 degrees all night. because it was since we put the pie in. It's been like warm all night. And then I didn't want to eat the pie because I thought it was going to give me food poisoning. And then Zach ate it a week and was fine. There's a lot of pie though. It was a lot of pie. So that's, I have a question about when you were feeling.

Not about pie? No, I mean, I have a lot of questions about pie. The pot pie, Zach helped me develop a pot pie recipe for healthier together, the cookbook. And it is heaven. It is so good. It has like an almond flour coconut is really good. But going back to when you started working and you weren't feeling your best. And I remember this that you used to like come home all the time and be like,

my body looks bad. And like it kind of did at the time because you were like. Ouch. You just, you had like, you had a belly that you like never had before. Ouch. And my feelings. I mean, you're super hot. Like you were just, you were like this beautiful human with a little bit of beer.

Sure. Sure. And I didn't know what to say to you at the time. And I'm sure you felt. this way to me a lot where I'd be like, I'm so depressed, I'm so depressed. And you'd be like, you should go work out. You know what I mean? But like it's like what it? So when you come, when your partner comes home and says something about how they look or how they feel even and it's true, what are you supposed to do? Like be like, hey, you fatty. You're right. You fatty. That is,

I think all like relationship therapists will say that the the correct response is to say, hey, you're right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that's, that's, that's, So it's almost a guarantee win, right? But what do you like, what should I have done? And also you don't want to be the naggy person who's like, well, you should get to the gym. You'd feel better. You'd look better. That's very hard.

I mean, I think I think the walking the fine line for giving advice between partnerships that border on critical, right, is always is always a tricky thing to pull off. And I mean, different strokes, different folks, but I bet probably for me, I think the thing that would have. worked there. And anything that I've seen work in our relationship and in our partnership, when one needs to suggest something for the other person, but without quite saying it, is the doing the thing yourself. Right. So like, oh, I'm going to go play some tennis. Do you want to come? Or do you want to go play tennis? Like, let's go do this thing together. Oh, let's go for like a hike. That probably would have been helpful. I think that works really well for you, too, because you prefer like workout buddies more than I do. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. What, okay, well, so what about, though, like, I feel like I've been trying to get you to meditate for, like, a hot two years now. Sure. Including, like, I did a meditation training, and I actually bought one for Zach for a number of hundreds of dollars. And it was wonderful. And it was great as a present. And, but it lasted for a few minutes and then it didn't. And I will sometimes be like, you know, I'm going to meditate now.

I meditate for 20 minutes every single day, basically without fail. It's very impressive. It's about how long it takes you to take a shower. Sometimes longer. Zach takes really long showers. Sorry, California. You do a better job. You do like 15 minutes shower in California.

But your mom makes that for it because she like, she's. Bless that woman. She's very conservationy with her water. But yes, I invite you to meditate all the time. And you work a very high-stressed job. We live in New York City, blah, blah, blah. I'd feel like it would really benefit your life, but like nothing that I'm going to do is going to make you do it. Do you notice the different difference between those two questions?

The first one being that I wanted something and you were asked about how to get there and this other one being that you want something for me. Yeah, but what if I really think it'd be good for you? You know, the nice thing is because I took that meditation seminar, it's like a mantra meditation course. I have the tools to meditate when I want to or when I feel like I should and I do every now and again. I'd say once a month. But in general, it's not a practice that I feel like I have a really good time maintaining, not because it's not amazing, but because just the way my life and my schedule work, I'm already thinking about work and everything when I wake up in the morning.

And I know that's a great time to do something like meditate. But I just like I like my mornings to feel like there's no obligation up until the point that I like step into kind of the, time of my day that I'm doing something, quote unquote, like productive. And that's generally when I leave the house. So in the morning, you know, I like to be able to sometimes cook food, sometimes make coffee, sometimes just walk out the door, sometimes take a long shower, sometimes meditate. But, you know, it's just, it's just never been something that worked for me. And doing it in the afternoons and evenings, I mean, that's when I like to do physical activity. Like, I would normally

do like yoga three times a week. Sometimes I have a volleyball team that I'm on, go rock climbing one day a week. You know, like you feel like you're adding too much stuff. It's one of the Yeah, and I think that's like a, I think, you know, we, there's so many schools of thought out there for what is going to be good for you on a day to day basis, right? If we tried to do everything, we would always fall short. And often, I mean, at least my understanding is like from a habit building perspective, being like, you know, giving way too much variety or being unable to do stuff or feeling guilty that you should be doing something, but you didn't that day or, you know, that can be really rough on on habits like you've gotten into the habit of meditating and you do it basically every day and when you don't do it something strange has happened right and that well and then i feel worse all day like something strange happens in my mind when i don't do it yeah it's crazy

it's crazy over there goodness um the that's but that's just not the thing that i've chosen to be part of my routine and just like you've not chosen um I'm sure any number of things that you might even find yourself writing about, right? Like, what do you do that's healthy that I don't do? You really put me on the spot there. Okay, I mean, like, I think exercise is a great point. I'd say you exercise a little bit, like maybe a couple times a week, mostly exclusively yoga, right? But there's probably a bunch more kind of diverse styles of like physical body work that you could be doing that could help things.

Who knows? So what about, I mean, I think that's the most interesting thing about a relationship, though. It's like particularly a romantic partnership that you're hoping will be forever. Sure. Fingers crossed. Let's see. But you can't see the wink I just gave her. but is that like your life is my life too to an extent so i think that's that's the really

interesting question of you know where in your choices start to affect me and my choices start to affect you and that's where i think people don't know the line what the line is of like what can i ask my partner to do because his state of health and well-being is going to affect my life now and in the future you know what i mean so like if your partner doesn't want to eat healthy at all, that's all well and good. And he can be like, oh, I'm an individual. Or she can be like, oh, I'm an individual. But, you know, when that person has type 2 diabetes, and that's like affecting your life in 30 years, that's affecting your life. And you've, you've chosen to, so it's the idea just like you've chosen the cart to hitch your horse to

and you get what you get? Or do you get some say in the direction that the cart and the horse are going because, you know, you're in it? Let's extend this metaphor. Let's keep going. So who's the horse here? No, I think that's a really good point. It's one of the reasons, too, why I think you often see couples reevaluating some of their health kind of priorities and ways they live their lives directly after getting married or something like that, you know, where you have these gestures and, I guess, contracts between people that make things more permanent. And in doing so, people start actually maybe evaluating things like that that they weren't evaluating before.

So I think it's, I think it's a, it's a really hard line to walk. And yeah, I really, I really think it's just tricky. Like if I was still smoking, would I have an obligation to quit smoking if you wanted me to because it's your life too? Well, and that's an interesting obligation. I don't think anybody can make anyone do anything. I think I could make you feel obligated, right? And I could encourage you to not smoke,

which definitely did happen. Oh, yeah. And what I can probably only imagine was the most passive aggressive experience of anybody's life where you'd be smoking, I'd be like, ha, sad sigh. Or you would definitely like do the thing

where you'd kiss me and you'd be like, It's terrible. It's like kissing an ashtray. Yeah. But I thought it looks so cool. It did look cool. I mean, luckily, I'm very lucky to not have a particularly addictive personality. So when I stopped smoking, I just like stopped.

And I was very lucky to, I think I mostly just missed the routine of it. Like, I really missed walking with my cigarette. And I miss desperately riding with my cigarette because I watched a lot of sex in the city. And I felt like I was Carrie Bradshaw. I think you replaced it with tea. Copious amounts of tea. Yeah. Yeah.

But it's hard to like flick a teacup in a in like a sexy fashion. It just isn't it doesn't I love tea like do not get me wrong. I won't. I love tea. I drink tea. I want to do like an article that's like this is my day and tea like I wake up and drink this tea and then I drink this tea at 10 and this tree at like 11 and this tea and you know and so on and so forth. But it's not as cool. Like there's something that feels very especially as a writer that it made me feel like.

Like I was part of this historic chain of writers. And it's interesting how we get these images in our mind. And I actually think that's something interesting to having with health right now is that it's undergoing this renaissance where it's becoming cool in a way that it wasn't cool. It's like getting it. It's interesting what we think is cool. Yeah. And definitely, I mean, I'm sure it depends where you live and what your exposure is.

But I think there's, there's, it is now probably kind of cooler quote unquote to not drink coffee, for example, than it has ever been. Yeah. Or to yoga. Like I'm thinking about all. the like athleisure stuff and all like that's that's you know it's it's it's now cool to just show up to your office in uh look like you did yeah just just look like you did even if you didn't do yoga yeah that's interesting do you so now are you like you're 32 now good guess um that's right yes yeah

you're 32 now are you healthy on a day to day basis because you actually feel better every day or are you healthier because you don't want to die or some X other reason, which I would love like to share. Both of those are really good reasons. I mean, I'm also not, I can admit that I'm vain enough to also still care how I, how I look. Oh, yeah. Isn't I crazy that I didn't even think of that as like an immediate reason? It's a little weird. Yeah, what does that say? I don't know. I'm a weird swab. Or that, or that I'm a, what's it, like transcended appearance? Yeah, exactly. Is that, yeah. Yeah. I was going in the good way. So, okay, yeah, like maybe do like a one, two, three.

Like I make my healthy choices that I make on a day-to-day basis for number one reason, number two reason, number three reasons. I think number one, I'd say tie number one look, look and feel better. And then immediately after that, like live to be a million, right? Because I think there's one of the hardest things about wellness generally is that, you know, it's a promise to your future self. Right. And it's like, how do you, I mean, how do, how do you deal with that, like writing about health in the sense that you, you say, hey, like, the data shows that people who do this live longer.

But by the way, there's no, there's no way to know if you're going to be within, you know, the 55% versus the 45% who get, like, the bad side of things, right? You know, like, because then it's totally. And I think, well, I think there's also there's this really interesting thing I read the other day that was about how if we do end up, they think in the next 20 or 30 years, we might have the first group of people who can extend their lifespan indefinitely, which is fascinating. Yeah. Sure. And their health span indefinitely, like their period of life where they feel really healthy. But then there was this really interesting premise that those people will become super cautious and live their lives in this very, like, scared way.

because they, you know, they can still get hit by a car and die. They can still die in any number of other. They can still get an infectious disease and die, but they just wouldn't die of quote unquote natural causes. And so there's this idea in the article I read, which I cannot remember where it's from for the life of me, but it was that living forever would only be part of the equation and it might affect us negatively in this whole other way.

Right now we're like we can die of any number of things. We'd have the rise of the bubble people that just like, bubble people like don't want to touch each other and which is interesting so I find with my writing generally and also for my own personal motivation that it matters way more how I feel at present I think that a lot of times the science contradicts itself constantly the studies contradict themselves constantly so to a point right yeah I mean cigarettes are always bad for you cigarettes are always but nobody's ever said that cigarettes are like curing cancer but I mean I just said it but that don't take that out of context

cigarettes are curing cancer, so little moody. But in, yeah, and in general, most people are like vegetables are good, but there's argument about which ones, like Stephen Gundry says that zucchini's and eggplants are bad,

you know, because they contain lectins, but other people are like, they're vegetables, like have to be bad. They're really good for you, blah, blah. So the one, my general philosophy is that if you feel good

in the moment from how you're eating, and I feel worse, like we go to this trivia night every Wednesday and I eat tater tots when we're there and I don't eat and they're fried and I don't eat fried food ever like that's the only time that I'm eating this like deep fried you know I'll I'll pan fry something in avocado oil or something at home but I won't eat you know a heaping amount of trans fat rich oil and I noticed that night I feel shittier I feel my stomach hurts I just feel like a little weird and out of it and I think the more I think maybe the whole process of becoming quote unquote healthier is about attuning yourselves

to those feelings so that you can know how you could feel in the moment and then what you should do to feel that way. Would you give advice to people that though that if they didn't feel bad about something, that it probably or maybe doesn't like affect them as much? Because like, for example, same trivia night, same place. I like their fried pickles. And guys, fried pickles are really hard to get right. It's so hard to get good fried pickles.

But this place doesn't know. They're super like mandolin pickles breaded and deep fried. And oh, amazing. And I do not feel any worse physically, emotionally, ecumenically, the whole thing. I don't know. That's a good question. I think if you are very attuned. Right.

If you've gone through the process of figuring out what makes your body feel good and what makes your body feel bad and you've eaten enough of the foods that we generally believe to be healthy that you have that baseline and you've done enough of the movements we generally consider to be good for you and the mental exercises that we generally consider to be good for you. And you have that baseline. And you could eat that thing or engage in that thing and it still makes you feel good. I think I would say, do it.

But you'd say it in a wary way that implies that you don't want to be quoted on it. I'd say do it. Big question mark at the end. In flexion. But yeah, I'm never going to be the person who's going to be like, don't eat that cupcake or because I also think there's something. I like they've there's interesting thoughts about all of the studies about wine being good for you that it has far less to do with the respiratory content because you have to consume so much wine

to have any respiratory benefits that would be significant in your body and it's way more about the environment one consumes wine in like you are very rarely you know hopefully going home and just drinking like a bottle of wine by yourself and if you are they think it might have less health benefits because it's about the community environment it's about like laughing with your friends, laughing with your family. Like Zach's family has a lovely tradition where they get home from work or, I don't know if you did this when you're in school. School, sure.

But they would gather around the kitchen table and they would drink some wine together and they would talk about their days. And I think it was very European. Very, very cool. The drinking age, all of it. Yes, all of it. We won't get your dad in trouble here. He wouldn't mind.

But I think that that community. I think, and you can quote me on this, the community is the most underappreciated health element that there is 100%. That's wonderful, yeah. So I think your pickles are part of you being part of this community. It's part of this trivia night. You're out with your friends. I think you sitting home alone and eating these pickles wouldn't be as good for you, and it wouldn't taste as good or feel as good.

I think it's the association of your mind. I can almost guarantee that eating fried pickles alone, would never feel as good. I can support that. And I can feel that. So there is. Yeah. So I think then you should eat your pickles and that's fine.

But I do think that we've moved away from the idea of community a lot and a lot of elements of our lives. God, yes. And I think that that we as society. We is society. Not you and me. Although you and me too. I mean, we're in. We used to live with roommates at one point and now we live by ourselves.

Yeah. We fought really hard for like roommates being a totally acceptable like. social standard for a while. And as you get older, people do not buy into that. And then you live alone. You're like, oh, right. Well, I think it's hard in New York too because, you know, you're around people so much of the time.

Because roommates is just, I guess housemates is just like a bunk bed. And you're like, oh, right. Yeah, we're housemates. Because you live in a closet and your roommate lives on your couch and you're living. The fact that we even use the term roommates instead of housemates. That's on a good side. Yeah, it should just be housemates. It should be housemates.

I like flatmates. We had flatmates in London and I love that. But we had like a two-story flat with like a garden and a and a courtyard and all of that. Good times. So have you ever had anything you'd consider like a health problem or something that you were trying to sort of cure by eating well or moving or anything like that? Fortunately not. I mean like most of my probably health stuff that I have noticed over time has been like physical. So, like, I had like a, like a hit problem for a while that was, that was, uh, a result of like going and visiting a, I, I took like a red eye flight out, um, to Wisconsin in the middle of winter. And like, I tweaked some like muscle in, in my hip on the plane. And then we were like out in the freezing cold for days. And when I got back, I had like these, this like horrible kind of like messed up kind of muscle group that just. And then.

took me like months and months and months to get over. It was really horrible. And I've had some injuries from rowing again, physical like carpal tunnel type of stuff and various kind of aches and pains. But unfortunately not had something really that I think unless, I mean, you've been around for the last eight, nine, ten years. Anything? Anything comes up?

No, but when you've gotten sick a few times, like when you get the flu and stuff, Are you comfortable using like natural remedies for it? Oh yeah, man. Garlic. Garlic wins every time for everything. Yeah, that's true. I started, you know I discovered. I realized this I was writing about the other day.

I discovered it when we were in Berlin and I got my. It being garlic, raw garlic. Yeah, my salmonella's scare. Oh my God, yeah. So we were in Berlin and I was at a, we were at a street market and we were living there for like a month while we worked on the startup that we were working on. And I ate like donor, is it donor kebub? It was like a donor kebub.

place and you were getting like a chicken shwarma and I got like a chicken shwam which I never get this kind of stuff to the point where you comment on it that it was like a weird thing for me to like pick at a street market and I was like yeah just I don't know it looked like appealing and I was eating it and I was like a weird texture and so I pulled out of my mouth and it was like fully raw chicken and it was one of those big chickens that's on a spit where they're like carving it down and they think the line was too long and they were just like going too fast and so they're carving too fast and the chicken was not cooked and I'd eaten a number of bites of this and I just freaked out And well, I actually, I don't think I knew it.

I was like, oh, is this bad? I like, no, you, you knew something was. I know, I knew it wasn't good. Like, I knew that you could get food poisoning or whatever. And then the friend that we were with was like, yeah, you can be hospitalized for salmonella. And then that's when my hypochondria, like, kicked in. And also that, that same friend was like, but I did just finish mine. And he ate half of it.

And then he looked down and it was the other half was raw. And I was like, how did you not notice eating half of a shworma that it was raw? It's chewy. So good. Anyways, I was looking up all these things online, and I found a number of studies that showed that raw garlic is one of the most powerful things against salmonella, and that actually researchers are looking to develop it into some sort of drug, or like the extracts from raw garlic, because they wouldn't just use the whole thing. So I started eating like a clove of raw garlic a day, because salmonella takes three days to kick in. So once you eat the thing, you have. three excruciating. I was going to say that's the thing I know is that it's at 17-hour incubation time

because that's how long we had to deal with that night. It was excruciating. So that's when I discovered raw garlic as a remedy and I also came up with really good ways to eat it. So my current raw garlic recipe is raw garlic. You have to chop it. You let it sit for 20 minutes because that activates the enzymes in it that are actually antibacterial and antiviral and antifungal. And it's because the what the outsides and the inside you need to mix to have some Yeah. So if you look at the inside of a garlic, it looks like a circle with another circle. Uh-huh. All right. So you're basically mixing those two things. So let us sit for 20 minutes. And then I put it on toast with a drizzle of olive oil.

Because I find that the fat really helps mellow out that sharp, bitter edge of the garlic. And then salt, which also helps mellow it. And then whatever dried herbs you have around. I find the same thing except that with like a pat of butter instead of olive oil. And also you've started putting it. We order. this pizza and you'll put the raw garlic on the pizza and then eat it like that. Yeah, it's a nice about pizzas. It kind of just wins over everything. Yeah, but the garlic does have to be raw.

But that is our go-to when you start feeling a little bit sick, you just start doing your raw garlic and people might not like how you smell, but it goes like you don't get sick. It is actually miraculous. That was something to do with a partner. Yeah, it's a great thing to do with a partner. It's healthier together. It's healthier together, for sure. Guys, they said the name of the podcast.

You know, you did so good. And the book. healthy together January 2019 um absolutely uh yeah so wait what were we talking about with that you use raw garlic when you get sick i use raw garlic when i get sick yeah um i have anxiety what and um i have hypochran i don't like saying i have it what it what is the i have in the past suffered from anxiety i think that's actually better to say than identifying as uh like i am a Yeah, you and I am a da-da-da. My dad is a psychologist, and he always encourages his patients to not identify by something at all,

because everything's sort of transient. And the second you take it on as part of your identity, it can have negative effects. It makes it very hard to shake it. To shake it, yeah, absolutely. Do you think I've done a good job of managing my anxiety over the years? When did you first know, I was anxious? A third date? Was it?

I don't know. And I don't think of you as anxious. I think of you as somebody who has anxious tendencies. Yeah. Great. I hope my dad's listening. Bob, here for you. When did you first win?

Because I think a lot of people meet me and they're like, what? Like they don't know I have any sort of anxious tendencies until I tell them. And I read is very extroverted, which I'm not. I'm an introverted. Wait, I'm an extroverted introvert. Yes. But I think people don't know until I tell them. So did I tell you or did I?

I think at one point you told me that you had a panic attack. You were like casually threw into conversation about having a panic attack. And I was like, oh, panic. And they're like, oh, yeah. No, I had you had a panic attack at that point. Like, did you know what they were? I had not and have not. I don't.

You've never had a panic attack. I only know of it through descriptions from you, which I feel like gives me some. You're looking, she's looking with like very like wide eyes like how, wait, how about Well, I just never, it never occurred to me that you've never had a panic attack, which is kind of crazy. I'm immediately like, how do I induce what? So we know how it feels, but that doesn't feel very nice. Anyways, okay, so I like, slipped into a conversation and were you like, this is weird, this girl's a freak? No, no.

I mean, like, I think people, I feel like, at least I've had enough exposure to people who have had anxiety and panic attacks to, I mean, it's very common. I think that's the especially like we're realizing more and more that it's it's more common. People just don't talk about it as much. But I think especially in the last few years, it's been very much something that's that's more comfortable being discussed, especially with like social media and people. Did it make you hesitant about getting into a long term serious relationship with me? I don't think it was ever something that I really considered. I mean, like, more importantly, like, or more interesting to me, it's like, what is the calculus that somebody performs when trying to stay in a relationship, right?

Which it must be much more complicated than probably even than what we're thinking is subconscious. But I do. I always feel, I mean, and to this day, we've talked about, I feel like my anxiety is the biggest bad thing I bring to the relationship. And I'm always like, I hope all of my good things are enough to counteract. it and so because that's my mental calculus is that's my bad thing darling the worst thing you bring to relationship is how messy you are um I wish I could blame that on my anxiety no but that in my mind it's I think it's because I can't fix it like I feel like if I wanted to be cleaner one day

which I think I've said it arguments the opposite of this so we'll pretend I never said this but I think if I wanted to be cleaner someday I feel like it could be but I feel like I could be but I feel like I could be but I don't necessarily feel like if I wanted to not be anxious someday, I could be. And that's why it always feels like this big negative thing that I'm saddling with, saddling you with long term. And you never thought about that way. I don't think I ever thought about it that way in terms of like making the decision to stay with you long term.

Certainly there's been days that, you know, you're really stressed out. We can't do something fun where I'm like, ah, you know, like I really would have preferred, you know, you not be anxious. today or for this, you know, basically situation to not stand in the way of doing X, Y, Z. But, I mean, everybody has that. I think everybody's going to, at some point, stand in the way of a, of a partner doing something that they might want to do for whatever reason. And these are one of the things that, you know, we accept by basically, uh, hitching our

carts to other carts and horses and donkeys and whatever, whatever. That was very egalitarian of you. What? You were like, we hitch our carts to other cards. there was no like wife cart and husband horse or anything. It was just like all very, yeah. I mean, hey, I believe in all carts can be hitched to carts, horses to horses, donkeys to carts. Donkeys go either way.

Yeah. How do you think my anxiety has affected our relationship over the last 10 years? Pregnant pause. I think it has probably actually, I mean, if anything, I would say that it has ensured that we have strong open dialogue. I would imagine that people who never have anything that kind of comes up in their lives for the first, you know, couple of days. I think all long-term relationships, things will come up, right? Health things will come up. Emotional things will come up.

Something will come up. If you can get through the first, like, 10 years of your relationship with nothing coming up, I would say that is actually a worse thing because you're not, you're not clocking that experience. You don't know how you would be. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I would say probably the best thing. best thing it's done is is is is keep the the kind of pathways of communication open and I think we and I have a lot potentially maybe more of an honest dialogue about how either of us is thinking what like what we're thinking and feeling at any given time because of it which I would say is a huge a huge boon

in comparison to to not and I mean like in terms of uh worse things I mean like I'm sure I've I'm sure I can like figure out some things that it gets in the way of but like there they're be, they'll be more like that time we didn't go upstate because Lyme disease is really bad and you're really worried about getting it. I have a dire fear of Lyme disease. Which is fair. Yeah. This is going to be a bad year for it.

So watch out. But actually, it actually is going to be really bad years. But every year is like global warming is just making it worse. So I'm just hoping we're going to like come up with a cure for it soon. I'm waiting for a invasion of lizards. Yeah. I think lizards would be a really great cure. Yeah.

It's just a shame because we both love hiking so much. So I'm just like we should go to Iceland and hike there where the only big bad thing is the baby fox. The Arctic fox. Yeah, that sounds nice. We were when we were in Iceland, we'd seen, what do we see? We'd seen. There's like only a few. Like five animals that are native to Iceland.

Yeah, there's like five mammals that are native to Iceland. And we've seen. They're just like animals. Like the puffins one. We saw like the pup. Yeah, not mammals. Sorry. You're like they're not mammals.

Well, there's one native land mammal, too. Yeah, but there's a puffin. There was the seals, sea lions, seals. They got sea lions, yeah. And then. We saw those at the ice lagoon. At the ice lagoon, which is really cool. And then Zach was like, man, if we just saw an Arctic fox, this trip would be

completed. I'd be so happy. And I was like, yeah, but I read the guidebook, Zach. And the Arctic foxes are only in the northeast of the country. And we were just in the southwest. And I think literally like an hour later, an Arctic fox like ran in front of us on a Yeah, it was pretty magical. My buddy home was like, what's that in the distance there?

Yeah. He's British and I'm not going to do a British accent. Oh, I'll do it. Oh, yeah. What's that in the distance over there? Yeah, and it was a fox. And it was a fox. And we got to like follow the fox for like, I don't know, like 20 minutes.

We just like follow the fox. It was pretty magical. It was great. So that's what I like to do. I like to like the things that we miss out on. I'm very, I'm probably more acutely aware of them than you are even. And I do feel like I try to compensate by being like, let's go have this other adventure.

Right. Like if we ever have an opportunity to basically like make up for the hiking stuff, you're just so. Yeah. Or like other ways I can like infuse our lives like fun, I guess. Yeah. Thanks. I don't know. With fun that like is acceptable within the constraints of my anxiety. Yeah. And I think everybody agrees. So life infused with fun is good. Yeah. For sure. I mean, is that is that your goal with life? What's your goal? What do you think is like the meaning of life? You've asked us on like every one of your podcast now. Like, like, It's like, let me just slip it in there. Like, what's the meaning of life? What do you think is?

Well, no, I said the thing that I think is different is this like greater question of what's the meaning of life. And then my favorite second question for that is how does that impact what you do on like a Saturday afternoon? Sure. So like basically what's this huge mind blowing question that basically impacts how you do everything? and also how should you be, basically how should you be feeling when you're not doing it on a Saturday afternoon? Not not doing it, but I'm just like, I feel like people are like, oh, it's like friends and family and community and blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, cool. So does that, what is that, like, make it pragmatic and real and intractable for me?

So like the idea would be like, it's friends and family. And then it's like, and then I host a weekend brunch for everyone I know and love. Yeah, but nobody really does that. So then I'm like, well, is your meaning of life? Like, are you not pursuing what you would consider the meaning of life? Or is it wrong? Do you actually think the meaning of life is something different? You're sort of lying to me or lying to yourself.

The meaning of life is Netflix and chilling, and I do it all the time. And it's really... You are great at it. Yeah. Wait. I think it also, I think the kids might... I just... Let's slide on right by that.

Well, I just always wondered that, though. What? Netflix and chill. Like, I know it's Netflix. It does not mean Netflix and show. It does it mean sex? And you just complimenting that. So like,

Oh, shish. But I thought you were great at, he's great at watching Netflix on the couch. As well as. Yeah. Any, any home.

Yeah. I think the meaning of life is, that didn't work. I thought if I just, like, said it, like, yeah,

right at the end there, but it didn't happen. I mean, like, it's, it's one of the hard thing. I mean, at the end of the day,

I mean, I'm not, uh, I'm not religious. I'm not strongly like atheist or anything, but I am, so I would put myself in a happy agnostic category. And I would say that like from, from like a data driven standpoint, we don't know what the meaning of life is. Like there, there is none. And that in a lot of ways, it's self assigned. So I'm, I would hope that the meaning of life to everybody would be potentially different on basically how they establish their priorities in the short time we, we have to, you know, do them and execute them. So what's the best way to spend a Saturday afternoon? Great question.

And I mean, like, it's going to sound right, but, like, hanging out with friends and family is a very high priority and, like, a wonderful way to feel like you're in touch with. But, like, I say that. And sometimes I find that the most important thing is to sit down and bang out, like, a really important piece of software that I have or some other project that is equally exciting and enthralling. So Zach is in a startup. Yeah.

He has its own startup with a partner, Tom, if you're listening. He doesn't do it alone. Yeah. But you're very, you work very hard in your life to get to a place where you can choose to do a job that you're very passionate about and that you believe will change the world. Is that important to you? Is that a big part of the meaning of life? I think it's an important part of my life. And I think, I think that's, I don't think everybody needs to.

to feel like they, I mean, I think it would be, if we all woke up in the morning and said, okay, I know a big part of my life is gonna be having a meaningful impact, a positive meaningful impact on the world, I think the world would be in a much better place. Like, and, and if I was going to, if I could like wave a wand and,

and make something the case that was maybe a little bit subtle and a little bit, well, it's a little bit manipulative. I might try to do that and say. But everybody would think, that a positive impact on the world was different. Well, and this is always interesting to me is when you see people doing things, you're like, well, that is just sinister, right? Do they think it's good?

Are they for some reason thinking? Particularly in politics, I think that comes up all the time. Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. But yeah, like where people, you're like, why are they acting that way? And then you're like, do they believe that that's good in their set of beliefs? Yeah, right.

Like they're like, well. In their construction of reality. Yeah. Maybe what I see is blue is red for everybody else. You know, that type of, that type of like, what is a suggestion? I mean, I could talk about the subjective nature of reality forever. Of course. Of course you could.

And you will. I don't think that's the case, though. I think a lot of people act because it's selfish and because it benefits them. And maybe there's, you know, people out there that, well, I'm going to benefit myself at this point. And then doing that, I'll have the tools and the means to do this other good thing. But just from basically, like, obviously. observations of the world around us, we kind of feel like that's not the case for everybody. And if I could wave a wand and have that, I would say, okay, if everybody was acting to what

they thought would make the world a better place, I think we would be better off. Now, I mean, like, from a legal perspective, from like a parsing of the words perspective, yeah, so what's different to somebody or what's positive somebody might be like the exact opposite to somebody else. Somebody might be like, oh, the positive thing is for all these people in the world to really go away. And you'd be like, that's really now what we're looking for, guys, because, you know, I have my own standards. But do you feel like that drive for you overwhelms sometimes the other stuff, like the friends and family? Absolutely. Absolutely. And is it, it's, and you think genuinely that it's because you're like, I believe I'm working

in something that can make the world a better place? Or do you think there's a selfish component too where you're like also like, I'm going to become this great, you know. it would be so great if I could like like sit here and say to myself or say to you that everything I do is from like a selfless like improve the world. I'd be really impressed myself. I'd be like, oh my God, I married mother Teresa. But it's not. I mean like I and of course like I of course I'm selfishly motivated to a certain degree.

I like to think that on on net I'm trying to do better than basically to do better than I take. And I think that would also be. a pretty nice mantra for people to live by. But again, do better than you take? Yeah. So what do you take? Oh my God.

I mean, well, like it's one of the ways. Like in terms of being a human consuming on the planet? A human of privilege consuming on the planet. Or is it like taking in relationships too with other people? Or what do you mean by take specifically? I'm in more in the first way in the,

in the negative impact I make on the world. Right. And I think the way we impact the world negatively as individuals is often, Yeah, environmentally and from a resource perspective. And I don't, I like to think that the, the human components of my life are generally almost all positive. But again, I don't, I don't see anyone writing anything bad about me online. But you never know.

Well, it's because you're not famous enough. Let's keep it that way. Second, you get famous enough. You'll get both. Not that I'm famous enough either. I just know people. I know people who are. But, okay, so I have another question.

We were talking earlier. You're a very like logical, pragmatic person. And you were asking what I, and you're a problem solver. I would say like at your core, every, like you are a problem solver. That is your number one defining characteristic, I would say. That would be a good answer. It would be like that problems need to be solved. Yeah, it would be creepy.

Like you don't want you to come off like a savant. Oh, yeah. But you asked me like what I would tell people in terms of like if they eat something and it makes them feel good or no noticeable out effects. or they eat it. What, as a problem solver and a super pragmatic thinker and somebody who's not deeply immersed in the wellness world every day, what would you tell people in terms of like living a healthy life? Like, do you think that how much of this wellness shit do you think is bullshit and how much you

think is real and legitimate and we need to, in general, on a societal level, really change how we're living to live our best lives? I'm trying not to list the stuff I think is. higher on the bullshit scale, just not to upset anyone. But like, the, the things that I would, like, like, the advice that I would give would be surrounding probably three kind of core components if we're looking at, like, from an individual, like, how can I be as healthy as possible as like an individual? And that would be, I mean, like, I think very movement-based and physical-based, like,

consuming based and then mint and basic mentally um and by consuming base i mean like food foods and drinks like the things we put in our body specifically um getting getting there okay i'm just i'm just making sure you're not going to be too and then i dodged the question the podcast ended and we went on forever without yeah um i like i mean so so i'm lucky enough to be married to you which means that i never feel like i have to stay up on trends or up on new research or up on things because I get it trickled down from you, your colleagues, and that type of space. So I feel like I get to stay up to date with information, which is nice. But that is, I'm in the minority in that regard because I think most people, they get blurbed by so much information, like, coming in.

They don't necessarily get the full, like, depth of stuff. I mean, like, it was only, you know, a decade or so ago that we were all, like, you know, really cutting fats out of our diets and being like, oh, we know. we know exactly what the healthiest thing is. But are you skeptical of the stuff that me and like my colleagues are telling you? Mushrooms are great for stress relief. Are you like, I like to see science. Sure,

I definitely like to see science on mushrooms are great for stress relief. But at the same time, I'm like, well, I don't think mushrooms are bad for you. I'm not sitting around being like, oh, no, the mushroom, right?

Yeah. And sounding like sugar, I'm like, oh, okay, well, you know, that was something that basically has been snuck into people's diets at the expense of fats for for decades like that like there's there's there's there's there's

all that situation but and i don't know what the next like ooh gotcha moment is going to be but i would say that my personal philosophy is the um i mean the the the mostly plants kind of philosophy oh yeah mostly plans not too much yeah michael bullen great work right simple simple rule He tells you something like the Stephen Gundry lectin thing, you're not going to modify your diet at all to take out lactate. The reason I'm not going to modify my diet at all is because I don't eat exclusively eggplant for various reasons that have nothing to do with lections. But you probably eat lections every single day. And he would say that you're causing inflammation on a chronic level in your body by doing so. Right, right.

And that might be very true. And it might be that I should change that. And if someone gave me like a shorthand way of thinking about that, that I could put into my life. in a way that was like super easy and I wasn't having to change my life like dramatically or anything like that. I would probably do that. As it is though, I mean, I don't have the science behind it. But you haven't tried to look it up. I haven't tried to look it up because I didn't really know. I mean, I've heard and I've heard you talk about it recently, but like I don't know about it. I don't know about it enough. I'd have to like go. There's so much. I think rules of thumb are the,

again, to go back to like this like habits and stuff like that. Like it's the things that you can actually implement in a meaningful, relatively consistent way and cutting entire categories of food out of my diet is generally not going to be my personal go-to unless I feel really compelled, right? Or unless it actually negatively impacts me or I have beliefs around it, right? Right. So, I mean, I totally get why people are vegetarian for, for moral, for ethical reasons. I mean, people, I know celiacs. I know one celiac.

business partners, Celia. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to travel, travel with him. To China. With him. The, so I mean, definitely there's the rules of thumb that, like, and like move every day, right? Like, if you do something physically act every day, I think you're going to be that, like, I think you're going to be doing. And you don't think it matters what.

Like, you don't want to get into conversation about like, is yoga better for you than running? I'll happily get into it, but I think it's all. Pretty I mean again the variety right spice-al-life type of stuff if you're doing yoga every day Somebody could definitely convince me that you're not doing something that's a hundred percent great for you because You're doing the same move like movement patterns or set of movement patterns potentially right if you're running every day I'm really worried about where your knees are going to go right especially if you have a loose ligament oh yeah Don't get me started on loose ligaments What was the other one you're like a couple of esoteric categories? I

mind. You might have heard of it. So what do you like, you know, there's a bejillion studies. It's like one of the reasons I like yoga is because it has a mental practice as well. It's maybe meditation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you do it right. I always think it's funny when people like don't at all try to match their breath with the movements or really be present in the moment.

And then they're like, oh, it counts as moving meditation because somebody said it was. And it's like, well, if you sat and tried to meditate but didn't think about your breath or just like sat and thought, it wouldn't really be meditation. Like soul cycle yoga or there's like blasting music that's making you slowly death or quickly death. And you're like, yeah. Yeah. But no, I think mental practices are really important. And that is, that one's always been a little bit harder for me because I've, I've never been probably like moving meditation has been my best one.

But I know that there's so much to be said for things like gratitude practices and for like meditation for, um, et cetera. I used to ask Sack every night what was three things he was grateful for today. And he gets so annoyed with me. Getting ready for bed, almost being in bed, almost falling asleep. I was grateful for all three of those things. Thanks. Yeah, I would like to do a gratitude practice, though, because I tend towards envy. It's a personality trait that I hate myself.

And I think that gratitude is the antidote to envy. So I love to it. And that's probably one of the things that I feel a little dumb doing alone. So I think it's nicer to have a partner. It's a mind workout buddy. A mind workout buddy, yeah. How have I made you healthier? Green smoothies.

Is that the number one thing or the only thing? I mean, there's clearly only one correct answer of those two options. What about? And it's in no way. Is it the only thing? So what's the deal with green smoothies? Well, and I mean, I could actually probably do the thing that I know you hate that I do, which is like, like, technically, the healthiest thing you do is probably just like a lot of things that could sum up into like one term or word.

Yeah, I really like, like, playing games with Zach is like the most annoying thing because he just like qualifies everything and you're just like, this isn't fun anymore. It's just like trying to play 20 questions and he's like, well. Yeah. Anyways. I'd make like a really obnoxious. I make like a really obnoxious like pseudo lawyer. You'd make a really obnoxious husband. Yeah.

Oh, wow. Here we are. I think green smoothies are one of the best things you do for me from a, especially on the consumable side of health because A, you're committed. I do. So I have a green smoothie literally every single morning. Right, which trickles down to at least like three green smoothies a week for me. Yeah.

So what I do, when I don't think a lot of people know you can do this, I'll make like a double batch. And so I'll, Zach and I will both drink the fresh green smoothie. and then I'll pour one jar, a mason jar filled with green smoothie, drink it the next morning. It loses a little bit of nutrients, about 10% of its nutrients overnight because it's been oxygenated a little bit, but it's still quite good for you. Unless your fridge is at 50 degrees. And it's lazier. Yeah, don't keep your fridge at 50 degrees if you're going to do that. But so that gets green smoothies the fresh day and then doesn't get it the next day and then gets it the next day.

So like every other day. But you think that's made you healthier. And then you intermittent fast on the other days. Yeah. Which is also good for you. I hear that. It was really hard to switch out half and half out of my coffee, but that's really what's made it work.

And then are there any healthier things that I brought into your life that you feel like has made your life worse? From a health perspective? Just from a life perspective, like quality of life. That's interesting. I mean like, so like we filter all of our water, at least for the most part, and minus like trips or things like going really south or being just very dehydrated because you should always drink instead of not drink water.

But even that's recent. Like I would have. I was trying to ignore the full hearty times. We're like, well, I'm just not going to drink water because it's not filtered. And I'd be like, well, yeah, but like your kidneys really want water right now. Yeah. That's what, but, but to that point, like, that's one of those things that's actually probably made my life less convenient.

Because I, when I would just drink water from any old tap, I wasn't, I mean, goes back to like the long-term health things, right? And I probably wasn't really noticing, like, the direct kind of microbiome stuff because I'd been going my whole life drinking tap water, right? Do you notice it now if you drink tap water? Yeah, actually, I do. We just got back from a trip and we were in, in Europe where we just were like, oh, it's Europe. You know, they're very healthy in Europe. All the, all the pipes are fine.

We're saying on, like, farms and stuff. It's like these pipes are totally not like 400 years old and filled with lead. But I could, I could definitely tell that, like, that, yeah, I was like, like, that, yeah, I was like, like, like, Like my stomach is like working at half-mast. That's cool. And what's your favorite thing about me? You're probing intellectualism. Hmm.

That word? Probing is a weird word. Yeah. But it's technically accurate. It's a good quality, I guess, and somebody who's going to have a podcast. Hmm. I didn't pay you to say that.

No, no, no, no. No. All right. I have a few questions that I ask all of my guests. And since you're a guest. I'm a guest, yeah. I'm a hot seat. I'm going to end.

Let's do it. What do you think is the best way to spend 20 minutes every day in the name of getting healthier or happier? I would say yoga. For everybody? God damn. Well, then just moving. Moving.

And actually, if we're going to be, if we're going to try to be as inclusive as possible, I would say walking, preferably somewhere with a nice solid view so you can look, look farther out. Yeah. Oh, look further out. So not just like in a park with trees, but like it's being able to see in a distance. Even like a good like long distance. I mean, it's just one of the things I know that especially in more people now these days, more than ever, are having to look at screens and everything else like that. And we don't we don't exercise our like long or like distance vision enough.

And walking is amazing for your mind. You can do it at almost any age barring, barring specific physical limitations. and it's active and it's movement and it's not again aggressive movement that is going to necessarily impact you in a anyway way so like that's like that's like a really bet hedging answer I think a lot of people myself included feel like walking isn't like enough you know like we go to these like really intense but that's the thing is like it's not enough I I'm more of the mind that it it it's pretty much enough like I think it's great exercise I also think that the notion that we need to kind of like pound our bodies for like 30 minutes or an hour

to get and healthier, I think is flawed. Sure, sure. But at the same time, it might be, it might, it's certainly better than nothing. But like, you know, you could, you could probably walk two hours a day and be healthier. Yeah. Right. Like if we're going to talk about just like what's like what's optimal. But somebody else might that might really not be the case

So I don't know but that that would be my easy one I mean I know I feel like our quality of life has improved so we moved so that we could I was just going to say this yeah walk to our office so we walk 25 minutes probably to work 25 minutes home every day and I love it Yeah it's it's it's a game game changing there was um there's a money guy Mr money mustache I think um this sounds like a real person he's actually like super successful money guy. He's like a super successful money guy. If you ever referred to as a money guy. He has like a blog and stuff and he's spent he like retired early. He's really big in those areas like a lot of people who want to retire. Financial life hacking style. Follow him. And he says that he like analyzed a bunch of

different data. He's like Tim Ferriss but for money. And he analyzed a bunch of different data and he came up with the notion that the single best way you can spend your money is to turn your commute into a walking or biking commute in terms of making your life like notably better and happier, which I thought was really interesting because I don't, I don't think people, I think people are like, oh, I'm going to spend money in my house for so I can have a pretty house or whatever, but I don't think people would be like, I'm going to spend more money, which is what we did. We spent more money to turn our commute into walking commute to improve our quality of life. Yeah. And I mean, at this point, I have now had jobs that I've had to, I've had to subway for,

I've had to drive for. I've had to walk in a couple different places. And even like... We boated for a while. Oh my God, we did boat. Yeah. We've had all the things. And drive.

Have you ever had one? You just drove. Yeah. I had to drive it to the Bay Area, like East Bay to San Francisco a bunch. Yeah. And it was the walking commutes and especially the ones that weren't too short. Like a five minute walking commute for like a magical like nine, ten months. It was too quick.

Yeah. And you're just like, you're like you're not, you're not ready to work for the time you get there. And you're not decompressed for the time you get home. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. 15.20. Have you ever been somewhere in the world where you're like, these people really got it right and they're like living this great life?

And if so, where was it? God, that's a really hard question. I mean, I, a few places come to mind. So, like, parts of the Bay Area and like, like, like, my family. I feel like I grew up there. So a lot of that has like rubs off on me and kind of the way we did like family occasions and like kind of came together. And what you kind of just drive me as like the Mediterranean like wine around the table style stuff like that. We lived in London for a while.

And I actually think people in the UK get it right in a lot of ways from like a quality of life in terms of like how like how much they're going to work. Like when they take off the type of social affairs they do like like like Sunday roasts and stuff like that. Like again, it's like I think. My stuff is going to be pulling people around together, food, drink, be merry, type of. Getting healthier together. I already dropped it once. Now you just sound like here. Next question.

It's interesting. I think I like in the UK I love the communal element. I also love that people tend to be very close to their families, I think, in large part because they always live, what, within four hours and max of their family because it's a small island. But it's a medium island. It's a medium island. meet pretty small island um like countries go um but and i also love that any brit you like or at least the ones that we hang out with we'd go to like our friends family home out in the country and they drop their stuff and then like go for a walk like anywhere or like with our brit friends and we've

traveled with them in iceland and like we'd get to new place and they like go for a walk it's like the thing you just like put on your shoes well we're here let's go walk yeah and i think in america at least my friends aren't usually like oh well that's an activity unto itself And it's going to be my immediate go-to anytime I go somewhere to just, like, go for a walk. And I love that. Like, we're here. Let's crack a beer and sit outside. Yeah, exactly.

Don't get me wrong. But I also, well, speaking of beer, I think that's something that I wouldn't take from British. I think that the culture I experienced there, at least, was very drinking heavy. Sure. Perhaps overly so. What? Perhaps. Okay.

So what's a purchase that you've made that you think has helped you most to become a, healthier or happier. I'm like, I'm looking around my apartment to, can I pick the water filter? Because I bought it. Sure. Water filter. We have a, what do? The Enveron, 10 stage wave thing.

I don't, you know what's called. Can I just interject? Yeah. Can you tell the listeners why you bought it? Why I bought this specific one? Or why about it? Because I was like, buy the water filter. You want credit for us having one.

Yes. I yelled at you to order it recently. You're not, you're talking about originally in the very first place. Uh-huh. Oh, did you pick this one out? Uh-huh. Really? Yeah.

And then you vetted it. Oh. Yeah. So it passed my test. Yeah. Why did you pick it? The main reason is because it attaches to a sink and sits on a counter. And it's not one of those things you have to consistently wonder if the pitcher or the cistern or whatever has been filled up.

It's like on demand filtered water. And I think for me, that is 100%. And otherwise it just, you have this gross plastic container that's just being refilled over and over again. It's never filled when you want it to be. And it's a whole thing. Have you noticed that all of your healthier stuff is like things that can naturally, organically fit into my life?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm noticing it now having, having basically been given the third degree. So very pleasant conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. It's great. What's one big mistake you've made in your life?

what something you got really right? I would say one of the bigger mistakes I've made was settling for jobs and job opportunities that weren't kind of optimal because I was desperate. And it wasn't, I don't think it's like, it's one thing to like work because you have to, you know, like put food in the table and everything else like that. And that, this was not one of those cases. It's more just like the shortcoming had more to do with just not doing enough kind of personal introspection. So I think that was one of those things that that, yeah, I've changed careers a few times.

So like soul searching regarding all of that. Is there something that you think you could have told yourself at 20, you know, earlier in your life that would have made a difference? Yeah, you're just 20 blank earlier in your life. Like you have time to figure it out. You should take the time to figure it out. You don't think that time, though, needed to be spent kind of trying and trying and trying and trying. Oh, I think trying and trying and trying is absolutely the way to go. But if I want to grow up to be a carpenter, I shouldn't be like trying out, you know, running a subway train or something like that.

Do you think you always knew what you wanted to grow up to be, though? I think I thought that trying was the process of finding. I think trying is the process of finding. but there is always a balance between when you know that you're not doing the thing and when it's maybe a little inconvenient to move from it versus like waiting until you know you're desperate or like really unhappy you actually need to like get the heck out of dodge you've done a lot I'm going to let you say your good thing too because I assume it'll be me I definitely want to hear about that um but you've done

a lot of like what some people might consider steps backwards to get to what I would consider a fairly successful place now. Like going back to school and things like that. Yeah. Do you think all of that was worth it? Do you, are you, do you feel successful now? I would say that by most metrics, I'm relatively successful for my age and what have you. I'm feeling some successful.

enough. I always think that like the anytime you say go back to school, especially in this country, where like student loan debt and everything is such a thing. I always find it such a hot button issue conceptually. I've gone to grad school and I have people calling me about, they're like, go on LinkedIn and like find out what school I went to and then get in or not in that order. And they'll have gotten into a program and they're like, oh, like should I go? And I'm like, well, it costs money. Everything like like most graduate programs cost money. Like, having to like you have to really ask yourself if you think you're going to get like I say like I took out like some loans for this and you know I'll pay them back someday um or fully pay them back someday um but in the meantime right like you notice it and you have to make sure that that's something that is going to work for you and it worked for me but like different strokes type of thing but I also think people are really like in terms of finding the thing that they're really excited about doing they're really nervous about going backwards because they're like, oh, I've already established myself in this career.

I already feel like I'm making this much money. And like you definitely, like, there have been, you're, you're doing well now, but like, there have been years where you definitely could have made more money if you stayed in a traditional career path. Sure. For sure. I mean, then you have to ask you to this. Making more money the goal.

But I read, I think one article fairly recently about one of the things that a bunch of, like, really successful CEOs had in common was diverse. diversity in background. And that's not to say that we're all looking to be CEOs and it's not to say that being a CEO is a great thing and I'm not one. But I- He's a CTO. Oh yeah. Um, uh, I do think something, there's something very strong to be said in diversity

background, which I know goes direct against my whole, uh, weak carpenter, subway train conductor because of the only-do So then is the idea though that like a backwards step is actually just adding to your overall portfolio? Yes. Yes. exactly the long winding end of the trail. But yeah, no, I think, I think you're always getting, getting diversity experience and,

and even if that means maybe taking a drop in in your career situation is always, I think, going to make you a more diverse and potentially better person. Will it make you more successful? Will it will increase your paycheck? I don't know. Depends. Totally depends on it. I'm always having to like remind myself of that because I feel like whenever I do

something. I'm like, what is this going to result in this year later, this year later, this year later, this year later. And honestly, even when I plan all of that and it like all fits perfectly, the thing will result in a completely different thing. And I just like, you, you can't see the future. And I tell myself that with my anxiety all the time, because anxiety is trying to see the future in a very negative way. But I think you have to tell yourself that with positive stuff as well. Oh, yeah. 100%. What's a good decision you mean? Other than, choosing to go out at the bar randomly when the night you were there. Yeah.

That's the best decision you ever made, though, right? Yes. Let's go with that. I was going to actually say getting a pet. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. We have a cuddly cat.

But it's one of those things that, like, simple choice, low upkeep, like, amazing quality of life addition, especially when you're like a young working professional and especially when it's an animal that is relatively happy in whatever you know environment you can a cat is chiller than a dog too i think yeah i'm a pet person i'm not i hate when people like you cat person a dog person i'm like i'm just like a fluffy i'm a living things person especially when those things are covered in fluff yeah fluffy things like i'm not a turtle person no offense to turtle people but um a dog is definitely like more work when i see somebody with like a big like sabier and husky in new york i'm like wow. That's your life. I really want to see like the four-story warehouse that you keep that thing in.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have a tiny apartment. Yeah. And but our cat's like me medium happy and it. Yeah. High ceilings. Yeah. Build up. Yeah. Do you know Dr. Vincent Pedre? I do not. So he's a really famous gut health doctor. And he said recently that he thinks that getting a pet is like one of the most underlooked things for health and he'll see patients all the time who will be able to go off hypertension medication because they'll get pets and their stress levels will just decline so much. So is it the idea that having like a fluffy wonderful animal in your life, like just do? It decreases, it decreases stress hormones in like a noticeable, measurable way.

Fascinating. And he said, I think, I don't want to miss quote him. but I was wondering if my I'm mild cat allergy and it's like is the inflammation caused by my mild cat allergy bad for me. Am I doing this terrible thing? And he was like probably the lack of inflammation, like the way you're getting rid of your inflammation by having these decrease in stress hormones balances that out. If not helps it. Maybe. Maybe.

It's all very hard to say. But yeah. I do think that it's an underlooked thing that gives you like a huge positive. positive health benefit. Sure. Cool. Well, that's about all I have for you today. Great.

Was that hard? It was very difficult. I had to think more than I ever do. It was very tricky. Well, thank you so much for joining me. No, it was just a blast. And yeah, I'm excited to have to hear myself talk later when I'm listening to this podcast. Oh, I won't make you listen.

Don't worry. I'm going to. All right. Thank you. Bye. Look, I'm never going to make everything that I wear organic. But your sheets, your pillows, your comforter are literally touching your skin for eight hours every single night.

That is a third of your life right there with one simple swap. And if your bedding is worn out, it's trapping heat or it's made with questionable materials, your sleep is going to suffer. And so will everything that depends on it. You want a bed, you deserve a bed that you are excited to get into every single night so that you can get the sleep that you need to feel your best. That's why I love Bowlin Branch so much. Their signature organic cotton sheets are incredibly soft.

You notice that the first night, and they are so breathable, which is a godsend if you sleep hot like I do. But what massively impresses me is that in an era where everyone is greenwashing everything, bowl and branch takes the safety and the quality of their products so seriously. They're got certified, meaning the organic integrity is verified at every single step of production, not just the raw material. They're Okotech certified, which I always look for. It means that everything has been tested and cleared for harmful substances from the yarn all the way to the finished product.

And they are fair trade certified. So the people actually making your sheets are being paid and treated fairly. Most people start with the signature sheet set. And honestly, once you feel them, you're going to want to do the entire bed. They feel like a fancy hotel, but maybe even better. It's made travel actually worse for me, fair warning. Because my own bed at home is like nicer than the nicest hotels, it just feels so good. I get so excited to get into it every single night.

It's time to upgrade your sleep with Bowlen Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bolandbranch.com slash Liz Moody with code Liz Moody. That's Bullen Branch, B-O-L-L-L-Branch.com slash Liz Moody. Use code Liz Moody to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. If you have headaches, allergies, brain fog, skin irritation, or you've been dealing with hormone issues, you are especially going to want to listen to this ad. Every single thing that I just listed has been linked to chemicals and household cleaners. One study found that regular use of

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