The Liz Moody Podcast - Mari Andrew — Instagram Fame, Creativity, Dealing With Grief, and Being Paralyzed For A Month (!!)

Episode Date: January 23, 2019

Mari Andrew (@bymariandrew) is one of the most famous writers on Instagram, with water colored mini-essays and illustrations that touch over one million followers daily. She’s the author of the NYTimes best-selling book, Am I There Yet?, and is currently at work on her second book. In this episode, we talk about Mari’s creative process, including the role of both journaling and traveling in her life. We talk about the formative grief following the death of her father, and how she came to be the person she is today, both in the public eye and in her own mind and body. We also talk at length about her experience with Guillain-Barre syndrome, which struck her suddenly while she was in Spain, and left her paralyzed and in extreme pain in a foreign country for over a month. The illness changed her perspective on the world and her life, and her insights about that time are moving and illuminating. Mari is one of the wisest souls that I’ve met; her thoughts on both the grand and minute moments of life are almost startlingly empathetic, and her ability to to capture the true essence of things will spark “aha!” moments in people young and old. I say in this episode that her work and life are a gift to us all, and I mean it—I can’t wait for you to hear the woman behind the wisdom. For every episode of the Healthier Together podcast, there will be a corresponding giveaway. Come enter to win on Instagram @lizmoody. Enjoy! This podcast is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. I’m extremely picky about the food I consume, and after doing a huge amount of research on mushrooms, I’ve become not only a fan but an evangelist. I don’t drink caffeine, so I use mushrooms to help me wake up in the morning (cordyceps), focus in the afternoon (lion’s mane), and calm down in the evening (reishi). I also use the chaga to bolster my immune system on trips (either cross-country or just on the arguably-more-disgusting NYC subway). This stuff REALLY works, and now I rarely go a day without it. Get 15% off your order using the code healthiertogether, or visiting foursigmatic.com/healthiertogether (and feel free to hit me up on Instagram @lizmoody with any questions—I could swan over shrooms till the end of time!). Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, friends, and welcome back to the healthier together podcast. It has been a while, to be honest. A lot of things have happened in my life since we last talked. But I'm happy to say that the podcast is back on. It's going to go back to its regular schedule. So every other week I should be releasing, and I should have some amazing, amazing guests coming up for you guys really, really soon. I've recorded some really, really cool episodes that I'm really excited to share with you.

I just had really like 14 times. but I needed the emphasis because it's good, good stuff, including today. Let's just jump right in with today's guest. This is Mari Andrew. Mari Andrew, you probably have seen her beautiful illustrations and writing on Instagram. She has, I think, over a million followers on Instagram, which is absolutely insane. She's by Mari Andrew. And she also has a book that came out last year and she's working on her second book.

first one is called Am I There Yet, which was a New York Times bestseller and so fascinating and this great sort of memoir with illustrations about your 20s and growing up and all of those types of things. I love Mari's Instagram. It is stunning. Like she has this way with words and metaphors, particularly, I think, where she's really good at capturing what the essence of a thing is. She might compare, she does this like November heart, December heart series where she'll talk about how she feels in the various months.

And it's so specific, but so relatable and universal at the same time. And she'll do the same thing with like the mood of a city or things that she saw in New York today, which I really want her to turn into a travel series. She's just like a very wonderful, fascinating person. And she's also one of those people who doesn't purport to have everything all figured out. but she has a lot of the really important things in life figured out. She seems like she's living her life right. Like she understands the essence of why we are all here and what we should be really, truly doing with our time here.

But then she's muddling through on a few of the less important things, which is nice because it makes her less than perfect and more relatable, I think, which is really good because she's a human and we want to feel like she's a human. So this is a great conversation with her. We sat around my kitchen table and drank abril sprits, which I am always down to do. And we talk about a ton of things. We talk about where she gets the inspiration for all of her illustrations and her writing. And it came from a really different place than I had expected.

So I'm interested to hear what you guys think about that. We talk about what she thinks the meaning of life is because that's the type of casual question that I am always asking people. We talk about the death of her father, who, I don't know if you've seen on her Instagram, but he was actually a rock star. So we talk about that a little bit. But her father's passing had a very profound effect on her emotions and how she lived the rest of her life and her relationships and kind of the path that her life went from there. So we talk about that grief and how it affected her and the loss of that relationship. We talk about her work as a creative human and how she actually gets things done and also how her father's example of having this very creative person as a parent affects her in her creative life now. We also talk about her crazy story.

When Mari got her book deal, she went to Spain to work on the book and she got something called Guillain Bar, which paralyzes you. and it also causes excruciating pain, which I didn't know until she told me. So she was paralyzed for, I believe, over a month in Spain. And then she had to do horrific rehabilitation and all of that to get literally back on her feet. So we dive into that experience and she kind of walks us through what all of that was like and shares some really emotional reactions to how that affected her worldview today. We talked about a lot of her life lessons, dating, relationships, journaling, kind of the whole nine yards. So it's a really fun episode.

It's a really great way to get a fuller portrait of the woman behind these incredibly profound pieces of writing that she shares every day on Instagram and that you've probably, if you're anything like me, tagged like 20 of your friends in and been like, that's you, that's me. As always, I'm going to be doing a giveaway around this episode so you can come over to At Liz Moody and you can enter to win. I will probably be giving away a signed copy of her book, but playing around with a few other things too. So check out Atlas Moody to see what I decided on. It's like a fun surprise and enjoy this episode. I'm excited to hear what you guys think.

This was one of my favorites. I think it's really interesting because you're like, this is my, in your book, I'm pointing at your book. It's just like zigzagging journey and everything feels great when you look back at it retrospectively. And I feel like you even have like an illustration that's like how it feels like now and it's all wiggly and then like how it feel like later. Do you think it would still have felt like that later if you hadn't gotten this book deal and you Instagram was followed by 5,000 people and you just kept, what was the job? Was it the law firm before? I was doing marketing when I quit my job.

And that was after, I mean, I don't even want to think about how many jobs I've had in my 20s. I've had so many. So, yeah, I, if I were just, if I was still working in marketing and just drawing every day, I like to think that I would keep doing it because it does really bring me a lot of joy. And it is the most relaxing part of my day. It's a way to express myself. I mean, I always say, like, if 10 people are following you, that's 10 people seeing yourself. every day. That's significant, you know? And I never thought that any following I had was insignificant

at all. I never really wanted a following. So it was, the whole thing was a total surprise. And as I've moved through this journey, I did actually have a point last year where I was so sick that I was unable to draw. And that made me realize, you know, you can work so hard for, for one thing and have it taken away very easily. And that kind of brought me back to the root of it, which is making myself happy. If it's not making me happy, I'm not going to do it. So I like to think that I would keep doing it just because it makes me happy. And if Instagram disappeared tomorrow, I would keep doing it.

And I have to check in with myself all the time and say, is this a burden? Is this a chore? Or is it really a means of self-expression? Do I really like doing it? And if the answer is, yes, I really. do like doing it, I'm going to keep doing it. If I don't. Always, yes.

Or is there some days where you're like, like, do you think about, do you ever want to draw something and not draw it because you feel like the reaction won't be what you would want it to be? I always draw it, but I don't always post it. Okay. Interesting. Are there any ones you could, like, tell us about that you. Oh, there's so many.

There's so many. Most of them are about, like, relationships. The ones I do now about other people are from a really long time ago or they're kind of kind of fictionalized because I don't feel like anyone else deserves to be brought into this. Like this is my thing. I'm the one who chose this lifestyle. I'm the one who's putting myself out there. No one chose for me to do this. So when I draw about someone, whether it's a friend or a boyfriend or even like a boss or anything, it's either like so veiled that they could never know that it's about them or I just don't post it.

Sometimes I'll post it on my personal account. If I really... I just like not that many followers. Just, you know, my mom and a couple others. Yeah, just like some expression, exactly. Do you, what do you, is it mostly cathartic for you? Like, do you feel, yeah. So you feel like a, like therapy or like what is it?

Yeah, I, whatever personality type I have, it's just, I feel like since I was really young, I have to express this stuff. So whether it's in a journal or through drawing or anything, yeah, I have to get it out somehow. People don't have to see it. Did you a journal for years? All the time. Yeah, I have a closet with stacks of journals. I always, so I used to write.

I'm a writer first, I would say, in like a food person second. And I used to write when I was a kid. But even, like tons, but even then it was always with the idea somebody to see it. Like I remember writing these diaries and then like hiding them in the wall of my. house with the idea that in 200 years some little girl would like come across them and read them and it would change her life and I think for me the idea of art is such or writing particularly I don't know about other types of art at all like literally don't understand it but um writing is communication to me and so the idea of doing a form of communication that is intentionally one-sided

is almost confusing for me so the idea I'm like I don't think I could write a bunch of journals with the idea that nobody would see them ever. But you don't feel like that. You feel like completely, like you're writing it almost, is it a communication for you? Are you in communication with something else entirely? Yeah, it might be. It might be like that.

But I also, I mean, like you said, I guess it is therapy. Like after my dad died, I had to like rush home and write in my journal every day. It was something I had, like I had to talk about, how I was feeling, but I didn't really have friends who I felt were really capable of listening to that much. I didn't have people in my life who really understood it. And so every day, I would like walk home really fast. I'd go to a bar, coffee shop, and bring my journal and just write.

And it was like, it was therapeutic for me. And I do understand what you're saying about, like, there's this definition of art that like all art is public. So like the difference between art and non-art is like art is for public viewing. For conception. Exactly. And yeah, exactly. And your journal can be that way too. I mean, someone could see it.

But for me, it was just really how to process my thoughts. It's a very, you know, internal, like a very vivid internal dialogue. And I think because I'm an only child, because I didn't have any friends growing up, I'm really used to having these very engaging conversations. with myself. So for me, it sort of was that way. And I would come to like very real and helpful conclusions or revelations just by writing to myself. So do you feel like a very self-actually as person?

And reading your illustrations or your book, it can feel like it's because of the collection of experiences that you've had. But do you think it's more the collection of experiences you've had or more just that you've had this mechanism to process all of them? and now you are the way you are. That's a great question. I don't think I'll ever know, but I think that it is the marriage of them.

I think that I've had more life experiences than like a lot of my friends have at this age. And I think that's a gift. You know, that's a gift for empathy. It's a gift for self-expression. It's a gift for kind of understanding myself better. But it also is because I had this tool of processing my emotions at a young age. So the very first like truly traumatic experience I ever had was being in a house fire and being trapped for a few minutes and being able to process that in this way of, you know, self-expression and being able to write about it.

Those were two things that really went hand in hand. And ever since then, it's just kind of been like nonstop experiences. And I think you're right. I think that it is the two going together. and that's what gives me the ability to write in a way that people can connect to. Right. Do you think you could, like, have died happy if nobody ever read your writing? Definitely.

Really? Yeah, for sure. And is that, does success drive you or no? Is it, well, again, like the metric of success is so different. Is there a metric of success that drives you? Yeah, it teaches all the time. I think when I was younger, I remember. I lived for a year in Chile

when I graduated from college. And I remember coming back from that thinking, I could die happy now. Like, I've done everything I wanted to do. I just, like, I felt like I'd had so many adventures and so many memories and so many good stories already.

And I was like 22. I didn't know how much better it could get or how richer, how much more interesting. I had no imagination for that at the time. I think that, to me, I've always thought that a life of a lot of experiences and like just a life of crazy stories and interesting stories, that was really what makes you successful. And if you have like a cool apartment with a lot of like momentos from your travels,

like, you know, all the better. All the better. I think now ever since getting sick, I realized that what is really important is relationships. And, you know, it's so cliche. but cliches are cliches are a reason, you know, that you really fall back on them when you are stripped of everything else. And last year, I was not able to produce anything creative, nor was I able to go on adventures, nor was I able to have experiences or cool stories or buy travel momentos. But I was a person who was loved very well and I loved very well. And that's all I

could do. And so now that is my metric. How are you sick? This isn't, this is different from your um, Gian Barr, right? It's the same. Yeah. Oh, it's the same.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you're, so you're talking about when you were in Spain. Exactly. Um, good pronunciation. Did I do it?

Yeah. I was like very nervous. Um, okay, so I want to get back to that in a second, but I do think that the, um, contrast between,

I feel like in my life, when I think about what the actual meaning of life is, which I do a lot. Um, I'm like, it has to be our relationships. Like, the thing I always,

always come back to, but then I feel the separate drive to go travel the world and to have all these crazy experiences. And they not only don't feel compatible, they feel directly in competition with each other. Yes. Like if I'm often Berlin living there by myself, I'm not forming a community. Exactly. So how do you balance those two things? That's so funny. I haven't thought about that in a while because I remember thinking in my early 20s especially, how am I going to do this life? Because I'm so drawn to moving a lot and traveling the world and being kind of like a free spirit. Like I didn't want any roots. I didn't want any tetheres. Yeah. And whenever I would try to commit to anything, it just fell apart because I felt like my spirit was taking me somewhere else. And so I always thought

this is like, how am I going to do this? And then I think in my late 20s, I was able to commit for a short a short time at least to the city of D.C. It was a place I moved very randomly and I grew to really love it. And I realized, oh, there is value in committing to a place. And it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with traveling a lot, which I did a ton when I was living there. I always thought that I would move to New York. And so, you know, the friendships I made there, I knew had an expiration date.

you know, I knew I wasn't going to live there forever, but they were so meaningful to me, and I invested a lot into them. And I think part of that was going through some really hard things, like losing my dad brought me very close to a lot of people in my life. Because of how they were able to be there for you? Exactly. The people who really showed up. Did you lose people in that as well?

Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It was an interesting. of seeing people's true characters. Yeah. And just what they were able to provide.

I don't think that anyone is a bad person for not being able to be really present in grief because that's really, really hard to do. But it's just that I happen to get much closer to the people who were able to show up. What is the best way to show up? Because I don't know whether you're supposed to ask about the person who's died or if you're just supposed to, like, show up with it. pizza or what is, I'm always like, do I talk about it? Do I not talk about it? What's the best, you know? Yeah.

It varies a lot, obviously. I mean, definitely the people who could really show up for me were people who had gone through a lot. I think they just spoke the language in a way that other people can't. They just can't. I mean, you can't really, you can't understand something you can't understand. That's not to anyone's fault. But I do remember there were a couple people who had never really suffered in their life before

who went really above and beyond. And those were people who I didn't even know that well, but they just sent me cards. And they would text me a lot and they would check in. They would talk about it. They weren't afraid to talk about it. So that's good. That's good. I always think about should, I don't want to make somebody think about it.

But they're probably thinking about it. Yeah, exactly. I don't forget it. That's the thing. So it feels kind of like you're thinking about it all the time. So to have someone bring it up is actually a huge relief because you're thinking about it. It's so incredibly lonely. And to have someone talk about it is like, oh, I can finally, you know, share this with someone or I can, you know, share this burden. It's like someone asking, like someone seeing you carrying a large, you know, load and saying, oh, do you need help with that? Can I carry that for a second? Yeah, that's great. Thank you.

So your dad was like a rock star, right? Yeah. You posted, I think, some illustration about it on Instagram. And then I was like, wait, what? And I went on like a Google thing. It was long before I'd ever met you in real life. But I was like, what? He was the guitarist in Janice Joplin's Big Brother in the Holden, right?

Yeah. Did he feel like a rock star? Yeah. Like, was he, like, cool like a rock star? Yeah, he was. And was your mom cool like a rock star? No. No, she's pretty. No, not at all. How did they meet? They met at a party. She asked for his autograph. Like, he was already, like, famous at that point. Yeah. And then they started dating.

Yeah. And then they had you. Yeah. Was he still performing all through your childhood? No. No, he had me when he was 45. So by then, I mean, he was really, his heyday was like his late 20s. So by then, things had calmed down. But he was always a guitarist. Okay. Janice had died, you know, 15 years. She was 27. Exactly. Exactly. So by then he was just in his own band. He's still writing music.

He's still doing his tour life and everything. So that's how I grew up. And I, you know, for me it was very normal. It was also kind of this fascinating look into the life of a creative person. I was wondering if the fact that you always had this example of you can live this alternative life, you can live this creative life. And it's totally fine and even a good choice. Did that change how you thought about what a life path was?

It made me think I don't want that because it was very hard for him. In what way? I saw that it was very unstable. It was he didn't really fit in anywhere. I remember even like really young, like being a toddler, like four, three, four. And thinking every other dad in my preschool like has a briefcase and wears a tie. My dad doesn't. Like, what's wrong with him?

And you didn't, was there an age where you were like, this is so cool. My dad has a guitar instead of a briefcase. Probably like in college. I mean, too well, because it wasn't, it was just my reality. And I thought it was kind of weird that he stayed home all day and was always out at night. And it just, it was like, oh, I just don't have a dad. He's like available to do these things other dads can do. And it seems like my mom's kind of annoyed with him a lot.

And he's like, he doesn't get a regular paycheck. That seems hard. Right. So it didn't seem something really aspirational. It was like, wow, like good for him for doing this thing that's really challenging. And so even though I was probably a creative leaning person in my childhood adolescence, I actually didn't really think it was an option. I looked at my mom who worked at 9 to 5. What did she do?

Oh, my gosh. I think it's too late to ask. She works at office and works on spreadsheets. And so maybe something in finance, possibly. Not really sure. I remember telling her, like, I don't want a desk job like you, but I also don't want to like. Was she happy doing that? Like, did you get a sense that she liked the stability of it?

Or was it more just like got to put a, you know, dinner on the table? It seemed like a responsibility thing. I don't know she loved it. I know that she would say she liked people she worked with, but it wasn't like her passion by any means. And I think when I was young, I really admired that. I thought, wow, she is like sacrificing so much to provide a stable life for me. Whereas my dad is doing what he wants. But it's more about him.

Exactly. Exactly. And so that was my perception. It's like creative people maybe are selfish, irresponsible. Do you think that's true now as a grown-up creative person? No. I mean, it's really hard. I think that there's a sense of creative people feeling a debt to the art that they're creating almost above all else.

And I think that that's where this idea that their family might sometimes fall into second place or other, you know, I have a friend and she's working on her novel and we'll want to hang out on the weekend. She'd be like, no, I need to work on my novel. But my debt is to that. And I think that can feel selfish. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I'm not sure what it's like to have a family. Right. You know, like I think that that's kind of the test for. Have you met? Just like you, I'm sure you meet all sorts of really interesting creative people. We were talking about Joanna Goddard earlier. I feel like I don't want to say blogger because she's like so much. He's like so above.

I know. She's the incredible woman behind Cup of Joe. But she has too, have you been exposed to people? You're like, okay,

I can see how a creative career would work in a good, maybe different than my childhood. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I think it's,

the successes I've seen are very disciplined. And I've tried to be like that. Discipline in what? In boundaries? In a lot of ways. So I've tried to have a 9 to 5 schedule and like not work weekends.

not work evenings. Like, I've really tried to have a lifestyle where I go to an office every day. I go to a co-working space. I sit down with my laptop. My drawing is every bit as disciplined as, you know, answering emails and sending invoices and taking care of taxes and all the really boring stuff I do. It's a little hard because my schedule is unpredictable. And I, at this point, I don't quite have my life set up where I can really do that like very, you know, rigid schedule. Right. I would love to. Do you like structure?

I do. I really do. And it's something that I admire for all the reasons we just said. Like, I think the people I know who are really successful at prioritizing friends and prioritizing family and getting to go on vacations where they really truly don't work, they're people with a really strict schedule. And that's the way I see it. manifesting, whereas my dad would play guitar when he felt like it.

And he would sort of wait for these bursts of genius. Burst of genius. Exactly. And I think in a way, I've gotten a bit of a head start because I draw every single day, whether I feel like it or not. And I know that not all of my illustrations are like the same quality, but I do it every day. And so how many of those to go up and are seen by the public, the ones? Because I know originally you were drawing every day, putting up on Instagram every day.

Yeah. But is that still the case? It's still pretty much the case. When I go on vacation, sometimes I just post old stuff, but pretty much like you did you draw something like yesterday and then you're putting up today? Exactly. Wow. Yes. I did one just before I came here because I knew I probably wouldn't feel like I want to go home. Oh my gosh. So yeah. You're not going to draw me in Bella later? I probably will. Be so inspired. Okay. I mean, not for me just because I feel like she's really like it. She's a glamour girl. She needs to be. put in art for sure. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay, so let's talk about your illness, because I'm, I find that very scary. I'm, are you naturally like an anxious person, first of all, or no? Not anymore. Not really. Probably about things that other people, like I, when were you? And how did you get rid of it? That's like my dream in life. I know. I feel like I'm not anxious about things that normal people are anxious about. Like, I'm not, like, I like, I like public speaking. Same. No, I'm just anxious I'm going to die most of the time.

Yeah, I mean, that's real. That's for sure real. I'm anxious about, like, things like, oh, God, like, open-ended plans are really stressful for me. Probably things that, like, would be relieving to other people. Like, let's plan on Thursday. If it doesn't work out, it's fine. That for me is... Do you think that's because of, like, the lack of structure of your childhood and you're kind of like... Oh, my gosh.

I don't know. I'll have to go to a therapist a few more years to figure that one out. But yeah, it's just like I, yeah, I don't feel like I am that anxious anymore. So your illness breaks me out because it's the kind of thing that it's truly my worst nightmare that I would, I tell myself constantly would never, ever, ever happen. Yes. So you went to Spain to write your book, which is like, you're just like, this is a great, wonderful moment. Oh, my life.

You pick Granada. I love this because it was like bohemian and cool. Yeah, I googled the most bohemian city in the world. It's so cool. It's great. It's a very cool city. I love the mix of like the Arabic culture and the Spanish culture. And they're both such like amazing embracing life cultures. So when you sandwich them together, amazing. It's amazing. It was a dream. So how did you know you collapsed in a hotel lobby or something?

Yeah, I felt pretty weird for a couple days. How long had you been there? I've been in Granada for a month. I went to a small town to finish my book outside of Granada, a couple hours from Granada. And I felt really weird when I got there. Just like really, really weak. Okay. Like I couldn't walk very well. I couldn't tie my shoes, I remember. And I called a doctor in the U.S., like doctor dot caught, like some random person.

And I just wanted someone I could speak English to. And she said it sounds like you've been dancing a lot. You've been drinking a lot of wine. Like just sleep it off. So I did. And then the next day I thought, this isn't normal. I'm going to go back to Granada. It's a pretty big city.

Like they'll have, you know, I can go to the hospital there. I was in a town of like a thousand people. So it wasn't the best. And as I was leaving, I just collapsed. I just, I fell. I was so weak. I couldn't take another step. I fell and I couldn't get up.

And they sent me to a hospital in that small town. It was like a house. I mean, it was like so small. And they didn't check you. in immediately, right? You were like sitting in the... That was in Granada. I mean, it was a two-day ordeal. It was really, really hellish. The small town, they had no idea what was going on. They sent me in an ambulance. Back to Granada. I was in the emergency room for, I don't

know, six hours, ten hours. I'm not sure. And the whole time, I was too weak to move any of my limbs. Were you paralyzed at this point? At that point, very quickly becoming paralyzed. So every hour I was weaker and weaker. And I actually, I mean, I thought probably what you would think. I thought, this is my worst nightmare. I've seen the diving bell and the butterfly. I feel so scared that it was almost like an out-of-body experience.

Like, I cannot believe this is happening. I also can't imagine having to sit there and ruminate on that for, like, the time that you're waiting. It was hell. And they didn't have, like, Wi-Fi. My phone was almost dead. And I tried to listen to a couple podcasts just to, like, keep me. Occupy. Surviving.

The nurses were horrible to me. And, like, I didn't speak enough Spanish. I speak Spanish, but I don't speak, like... Medical Spanish? Yeah, I don't speak medical Spanish. It's just like, I didn't really know the words for like, I don't know if they've called my name yet. Can I get it? Like, I was just listening for my name.

There are probably like 50 people in the emergency room. That was anxiety producing. It's so funny that it's, that would be. It came back. I was normally so chill. So then they check you in. And how long did it take them today? Because it's a very, do you know how rare it is offhand?

It's really rare. One in 100,000. One in 100,000. And is there always. a full recovery or is sometimes it's permanent? I think for the most part, there is a full recovery. I think some people have issues the rest of their lives. Okay.

So I didn't know anything about it. And in fact, when they diagnosed me a few hours later through a whole bunch of tests, and I was very lucky to be diagnosed as quickly as I was. I was very lucky. And this doctor was like fabulous. He looked like Spanish Josh Grobin. He was so hot. And he knew right away what I had, which was really impressive because it is very rare.

I mean, he must have just remembered that from his book, you know, like in college. I don't even know. But he knew right away. And I was so desperate to call my mom. I was just like, I kept telling him, I need to call my mom. And he said, no, you don't. You need to get on medication. So what is the medication?

So it's, I'm not really sure, but it's intravenous. And you have to do it for about a week. And it's just, so what happens is your nerves start attacking your, sorry, your immune system starts attacking your nerves. It starts eating them, really. And so they just become weaker and weaker because it thinks that whatever disease you have, usually a cold or something, is caused by your nerves. So it just like goes for your nerves. It starts from the feet. It goes up to your face.

Some people get their face paralyzed. I was very lucky. That didn't happen to me. And so he said, we need to stop this before it gets to your lungs, before it gets to like your vital organs. And is that when you're like really in trouble? Exactly. Exactly.

And you need like a ventilator, all of that stuff. So I was very, very lucky, extremely lucky. So I kept saying, I need to call my mom. He would say, no, we need to get you on medication. I'm so fortunate. He just kept pushing for that because otherwise, who knows what would have happened. because it was so aggressive at that point. Yeah, it moves very...

So you, this is interesting. I always thought you acquire Guillen Barr's like a virus onto itself, but it's more you acquire like a cold or a flu. Exactly. And it's how your body reacts to that. Right, right. Interesting. And we don't know why you would get a cold 30 times and be fine and then get a cold that time.

Exactly. It is so random. So I always tell people like, don't be afraid of Spain. Don't be afraid of whatever. You know, it's as random as it could possibly be. I was going through my news on my phone last week, and there was a People magazine story about another girl who got game bar in Granada. Yeah. Not to freak people out about Granada. I know.

But I was like, it just was a very strange coincidence that there's just two public cases of it. I know. But there's this many in New York. Yeah. For sure. So you go on this Medicaid. And then you called your mom, I'm sure. Did she fly out?

I was able to. She did as soon as she could. And at the time, I didn't know the name of my name. disease. They told me that it was that my nerves were weakened because of a virus and I'd be in the hospital maybe five days. But did they always, were they always like, this is going to go away? Yeah. Yeah. It was so lucky because they actually didn't know that much about it. They knew what it was, but they didn't know a ton. So they said, we need you in the hospital five days. And so I called my mom. I said, I've got to be here five days. Like what an inconvenience, you know, but I'll be out soon.

And she was just, she just said, I don't want you there by yourself. I'm going to come, which was so lucky because I ended up being in the hospital for a little over a month. And then my recovery was several months after that. So what was the whole, were you paralyzed for the entire month? Um, I, I left when I could walk with a cane or a walker. So I was completely paralyzed for about two weeks. And when you say complete, like you couldn't move. Was it waist down?

our whole body. Arms and legs. So you literally could not lift up your arms. Exactly. So what did you do for that whole two weeks? Fortunately, I was so nervous when it first happened. I thought, what the hell am I going to do without Wi-Fi and a TV or anything? Fortunately, I was in a lot of pain.

And when you're in a lot of pain, you just want to sleep. So it hurts too. It's not just like you're paralyzed. It's actually a physical pain. Exactly. So I was in so much pain. I pretty much just slept for two weeks or I was in such excruciating pain that I was like distracted. It wasn't just lying there with nothing to do. It was like. Yeah, I didn't realize the pain part of it. I always just pictured you like being like like, ugh, like watching real housewives or something. I know. That would have kind of been nice.

No, I was in such pain that I couldn't even like think straight. I was screaming a lot. and then I would try to sleep when I wasn't, you know, like actively in a lot of pain. So I kind of slept. It went by pretty quickly. And then as soon as the pain started subsiding, I remember the first time I was able to pull my leg up. Like when I was sleeping, I love to kind of change positions. I'm a very active sleeper that was really, really excruciating for me not to be able to change positions. And the first time I was able to kind of bring my leg up was a huge shift.

deal and I thought, all right, it's starting to get better. And so over the next two weeks, it was very little by little. The first time I was able to, you know, push myself in a wheelchair was a really big deal. The first time I was able to sit in a wheelchair. Was there a physical therapist? There's sort of like an occupational. Yeah, all kinds of therapists. I was going to all day long, just like, you know, doing things like making things out of Play-Doh or, you know, like trying to kick like balls in a net, which was hilarious because I'm like the least athletic person ever. You're like, I couldn't do this before, I guess.

Like, could I do this before? I don't know. That kind of thing, like skills. And then I was able to start walking with assistance. And I thought, I don't really want to be in this hospital anymore. So I'm going to kick it and leave. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. All right.

Let's take a brief break so I can introduce you to one of my favorite products on the planet. If you know anything about me, you know that I can't do caffeine. It stokes my anxiety and it makes me feel really crazy. And I was always so jealous of anyone who could reach for their morning cup of Joe and feel wide awake and also look really cool with their mug and all of that. That was never me. But now I have my mushrooms. and by that I'm talking about four-sigmatic. They're basically medicinal mushrooms, not psychedelic,

although my dad was very concerned by that when I told them that I was obsessed. And they come in these super convenient little packages that I stash in my backpack, so I have them wherever I go. In fact, most of the time when I'm at a coffee shop or at a cafe, I'll just order a hot water and then I'll mix in one of my four-sigmatic packs so I can save some money, and I don't have to worry about them not having a tea that I like, which happens quite often because, as you can amend,

I have quite strict standards for what I consume. So there are a bunch of different kinds of the mushrooms, and each one has different benefits. So I take a cortisps in the morning to feel awake, and then I take Lionsman when I'm feeling that 3 p.m. slump, and it really helps me kind of focus and not want to, I don't know, go read a million blogs instead of doing my actual work. And then I take Rishi when I'm feeling stressed out or anxious, which for me, again, if you know anything about me, is quite often. I've turned into a bit of a mushroom evangelist at work and with my friends.

People used to come to me for a tea to heal every ailment. I'd open up my tea drawer and I'd be like, oh, here's your blend for this stomachache or if you're feeling anxious or tired. But now I am a mushroom evangelist and people come to me to find out which room they should use for whatever's wrong with them. People also ask me about the taste a lot and I actually don't like culinary mushrooms very much. It's a weird thing about me.

If you read my cookbooks, you'll notice that there aren't a lot of mushroom recipes in there because I just don't love them. They turn my stomach a little bit. But I find the four-sigmatic mushrooms to be really earthy and grounding. And I like the new formula. A lot of their new formula ones don't have any stevia or sweetener. And it's kind of an herbie. And it's a really subtle flavor.

Okay, it's grounding. Grounding is like the main word I would go for. It just instantly sort of makes you feel calmer and more present. whole, I think. I'd think of like an herb tea or a chai, but less spicy than a chai. So just sort of that herbie, rudy, grounding vibe. They also have a ton of flavored stuff, if you prefer that. I'm loving their chai lattes recently. They're so, so good. They're also caffeine-free, which is hard to find in a chai. They're amazing. And then they also have a golden milk latte, which is new. And I am 100% obsessed with. That's one of my favorite morning drinks. I took a bunch of them when I went

back to California recently and I used them all up on day three and I was very sad about it. So if you want to try them yourself and I highly recommend that you do clearly, it's become one of my absolute staples. You should see my desk. It's piled with four-sigmatic boxes. Go to four-sigmatic.com slash healthier together. That's F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C dot com slash healthier, H-E-L-T-H-I-E-R, T-O-G-E-T-H-E-R. You can also get 15% off using healthier together as a code, although you barely need it. They're not one of those, like, wellness products that costs a zillion dollars for a teaspoon and you don't even know if it's working. They're really, really affordable and the kind of thing that you can

actually incorporate into your day-to-day life. So I love that. And message me on Instagram. If you have any questions about them, I love talking about mushrooms. And I've done a ton of research on them. And I'm really a believer, which I don't say about very many things. The evidence keeps stacking up for their short and long-term benefits. So I definitely recommend you get in on that. Again, use the code healthier together. And enjoy. Come and tell me if you like them, for sure, because I'm 100% obsessed. I want to talk about it with people. So come and tell me. And all right, without further ado, let's get back to the conversation. And did you just go back to Granada?

No, I went to Portugal. Okay. I was like, I paid for this trip. I had an Airbnb waiting for me in Portugal. I meant to go to at the end of my Spain trip. So the timing was sort of right on that? Yeah, yeah. And I was able to go to Lisbon for a couple weeks.

It was horrible. I mean, it was very, very awful time. But because you just, like, we're still healing so much. Very much. But it wasn't a bad place to be healing, you know? Yeah. If you're going to be like, yeah, if you're going to be like half paralyzed and really like traumatized, it's not bad to be like eating fresh fish and, you know, putting your legs in the ocean.

Like, yeah. Yeah, it was perfect. So you write in the book that you had a nurse who said she was like jealous of people who have come through the other side of. This, which I found really striking because I do, I think people wish for the, they don't wish to go through, especially when you talk about the pain and I don't think people really think about that. But I think we all wish to have an easy pass to feeling like our lives have meaning or we are excited about every day. Do you, are you like, I'm so grateful for this disease or are you still like, you fucking ruin my spirit. Yeah, I'm not there yet. Okay. I think I expected when she said that that there would be one day when I just woke up and I felt better. But it was so gradual. I'm actually still recovering. So even now.

Physically? And can you, in what way? So it's pretty subtle, but I recognize it. I'm a dancer and I'm not able to fully point my toes, which is really frustrating. So when I go to an open dance class and the teacher doesn't know me, they always like get mad at me for not, or, yell at me. I mean, they're not mad, but like, you know, they're dance yelling. They're dance yelling. Yeah, like, put your toes. And

it's just a lot to explain. So I just I'm just like, uh, I'm just like, uh, I feel like you need one of those cards. I need like a brochure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, I very easily drop things. So sometimes I'll just be carrying something totally normal, you know, a mug or something. I'll just drop it. And that's not a great feeling.

It makes me feel embarrassed. It's still hard for me to open. Again, like, I'm not sure if it was always hard for me to open certain jars or, you know, like, it's hard to know how I was before. How are you at kicking balls and to... Still terrible. So that's good. That's great.

I don't know if I'm going to become a soccer star anytime soon. But, yeah, so it's been such a gradual recovery that I didn't have, like, that one moment. I think what we fantasize about is, like, the moment when you can walk again. And you're just like, oh my God. The music plays. The music plays and the world opens up. But it was so gradual that even when I could walk again, it was so hard that I wasn't really grateful for it. I was so frustrated by how difficult it was.

And also something that I struggle with so much, which I think I will always be really wounded by, is the extreme empathy that I have now for people with disabilities. And why do you feel like you'll be wounded? To me, I'm like an empathy whore. I'm like, all empathy is amazing. Yeah. It's not an empathy that is helpful to people. It's an empathy that makes it very hard for me to get through a day.

It's not like I'm doing something like amazing because of it. I hope to always be an advocate for accessibility, but when I see someone who has trouble walking or when I even think about how much trouble it would be to walk up some stairs, I can't handle it. It throws my whole day out of whack. So it's an empathy that isn't like helpful. It's just making me extremely sad. And I go really deep into my memory. And it's a memory that is really, really hard to deal with.

Do you feel any sense of like not. survivor's guilt, but like why should I be able to walk again? It's total survivor's guilt. Yeah. Yeah. Because the people, like when I was in physical therapy, my little classroom of like six people were mostly my age. And all of them had permanent conditions. Like one had been in a car accident, would never walk again. He was this like really hot muscular guy who was an athlete, you know? And then there was a guy who had cerebral palsy. who was also like really funny and smart and attractive. And it was so hard for me to see myself getting better.

And I know that they were happy for me. I would be so happy for them. But I could do things that they had no hope of ever doing again. And putting myself in that place and knowing that so many people live there forever, it was such hell for me. And the idea that people live in that all the time is actually like impossible for me to get over.

Did you feel like any of the positive elements of it? Do you feel like it? You already seemed like you had this sort of, I'm going to appreciate all these little amazing things in life, which is what you hope to get. Yes, of course. What the movies have taught us to get from like a near-death experience. Do you feel like that upped the ante on that at all

or gave you a different appreciation of what mattered? Not really, but it... It didn't really make me more grateful, but it gave me this really valuable lesson, which is a kind of dark lesson. But it's what I mentioned, that you can work forever for something and it can be taken away. You could be, you could work every single day to be like an Olympic athlete and you could be paralyzed so quickly. You know, like you can want something so badly and not be able to do it. And that sounds horrible and it is horrible. But it happened to me and it was my greatest fear.

So what are you supposed to do with that? Like are you supposed to not put all your effort into trying to do these things? Or are you supposed to somehow develop your identity elsewhere? Yeah. So what it taught me is one to diversify my identity a bit. So, you know, to not put everything in my career, but make a lot of time for my friends, make a lot of time for other things I enjoy. But then the other thing that was probably more valuable to my career is you got to be enjoying it.

You know, like if you are working so hard for something that is pretty precarious at the end of the day, you have to at least be enjoying it. And I felt so lucky that I really loved writing and drawing. It wasn't about writing a book for me. It wasn't about a number of Instagram followers. It was that I really liked doing it. And it wasn't time wasted. You know, it wasn't like I was looking back on my life thinking, I may never be able to do this again. You know, I really regret all the time I put into this one.

Like I didn't get to this one pinnacle. Exactly. It was like, wow, I really enjoyed my life. And even when I was talking to the doctor, I mean, this doctor didn't have the best bedside manner. But the hot Josh Grobin. The hot Josh Grobin. But he said, it sounds like you've really enjoyed your life. This was at a time when he wasn't sure if I would ever walk again or ever be independent again.

And he said, you know, I know this is like a bummer, but it sounds like you've had like the best life. And I said, yeah, I mean, I've really enjoyed it. I've traveled everywhere I've wanted to and I've done everything I've wanted to. And I really liked my life. So what about people who don't feel like they have that option? Like what if you feel like you have to sort of work this job that you hate because it makes money and you can maybe do something fun and creative for yourself, but it's small and you can't travel. You just feel trapped in your life. Like what are those you supposed to do?

I've had so many years like that too. But those were times when like there are two years of my life, two years of my 20s. I cannot tell you one thing about my job. I have completely blocked it out of my memory. And I spent eight to seven there, you know, most days. It was a really, like it was a lot of hours. I was making no money. I hated it.

I can't tell you a single person I worked with or what I did. But I can tell you every single thing about my commute there because I would walk every day. And it took an hour to get there and an hour to get back. But I hated taking the metro, D.C. subway. And so I would walk there. And it was like the one really good part of my day. And so it was like a sort of happiness that I could rely on. So the job sucked.

I was not in a great place. I wasn't dating anyone good. I didn't even have like the most ideal circle of friends. But I had this like walk that really meant a lot to me. And when I think about those two years, like 25, 26, that's what I remember. You know, like my mind goes right to that happy place and not the dumb job. Like that was a part of it, but it wasn't the most important part of it for me. So where, if you didn't get that from having like an incredibly dangerous rare illness, where did you get that from?

It's not, it's a rare special thing to interact with the world like that, especially because we live in a world where society is telling us constantly that that's not what matters and that's not what we should be spending our time doing. True. I don't know. Where? I know. I don't know. Have you always been like that? Like, were you always sort of able to find moments of bliss in whatever circumstance you were in? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I was really lucky that my parents, my parents had me when they're a bit older. And by then they had like a really cool life. And what they always talked about in their life, was like, you know, the time my mom was a waitress at Lake Tahoe. And it wasn't her, I mean, this was in her late 20s. She didn't really want to be doing it, but she had like amazing stories. And they always spent any money that they had on travel and like good food. And I think that they taught me that what you're really going to remember in life is your experiences. It's not what you did. And they were really, really good about imparting that on me and never made me feel.

like career or romantic relationship or the important things. It was always like, where's the story? What's going to be the thing that you talk about when you're in your 60s? So if somebody wanted to infuse their life with more experience, what would you tell them to do? Solo travel. Okay. Get a journal.

Those are the two things. Did you always? So I spent probably five or six years off and on solo traveling. And it was a huge part of what made me who I was, but I also hated it at moments. You know what I mean? Like I do think it's glamorized a lot and you're like, oh, I'm in Paris. And it's so great. But I was deeply lonely often.

And I think that that was good because it made me who I am. But I remember, or cutting to a new town and feeling like I had no idea what to do or who to do it with or I'd go to a hostel and everybody would not be my people. or you know that kind of like, for you, is it always all good or do you think that there's the negatives or as important as the positives or? Yeah, but I think that it's always hard. I think it's hard if you're with people too because like maybe they want to do things you don't want to do. You know, I think that like travel is challenging. It's not all, you know, blissful. Instagram photos. Exactly. Exactly. for me because I am an introvert, super independent, only child, it's always been just easier for me to travel alone. Like it wasn't, you know, this act of bravery as much as it was like this is probably the more comfortable way to travel because I can do my own thing.

But of course, you know, there's been so many moments. I mean, health issues aside from getting paralyzed, you know, just like getting sick and not knowing what medicine to take. And, you know, having those moments where you're like, I just need to, like, do this really simple task. Like, where is the dental flaws? Like, all of those. And I think that having a sense of humor is a great tool. So, again, like, so many times I'd be writing in my journal about things that happened to me while solo traveling. And I'd be, like, cracking myself up because they were so funny and ridiculous.

Like, what's the funny thing? Oh, my God. Well, I was living in Chile, teaching English, and everything about that was so hilariously difficult. Like, just requesting a day off, you have to, like, if you want, like, a sick day, you have to go to the doctor and have them write you a letter and then, like, present it to someone. That's like, flashback to third grade. Totally. It was like, this is the most absurd thing. I can't even talk.

I can't even make a doctor's appointment because my throat is so horrid. I can't even talk and I have to go to the doctor and get this letter. It was so silly. And at the time, of course, I was almost crying because it's so frustrating. But it's kind of hilarious. You know, like you just have to laugh at yourself and you have to laugh at all the mistakes you're going to make, all the like accidental expenses you're going to have. And it's just like it's part of the experience if that's what you want.

If you want a life of experience, you have to be able to laugh at yourself and you have to know that things aren't going to go well. If you don't want a life of experience, you don't have to have it. You can do easy things. That's fine too. Life is hard enough. But if you want those rich experiences, you're going to have to like go through some ridiculous things.

Do you think there's a way to make travel feel formative though versus just like pleasurable versus like I just came here and I ate some stuff and I saw some things and now I'm home? I think a lot of it is self-reflection. So definitely the journaling. the processing, the doing things you wouldn't normally do, which is my favorite part of traveling. You can kind of assume like a different persona. Like if you're not a person who regularly goes out dancing alone, you have to when you're

traveling alone or you're never going to do anything. Being more open to other people. I am such an introvert. I would probably never talk to someone normally, you know, at a coffee shop at home. But when I'm abroad, I'm like, yeah, what's going on? Like, tell me your whole life story. Like you'll start the conversation. Yeah, yeah, I'm super receptive to it.

Do you feel like that's one of the reasons you like traveling is because you get to sort of become a different person for a moment? Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I like that too. I always love that scene in Almost Famous where she's like, I'm going to move to Morocco and change my name and all of that. And I just was like, oh. So appealing.

Well, I just think we spend so much of our time being reflected in the people that we surround ourselves with and then changing ourselves to meet that reflection, which could be like 10 years old or 20 years old even. And when you're traveling by yourself, nobody, you don't have that at all. You can be completely whoever you want any single day. You're just like a pure person. Yeah. That's amazing. That's a really good point. It's like a very freeing thing. Yeah, I miss it a lot. I think it's really magical. I think everybody should not only travel by themselves, but try to do like at least one of those long trips where you are gone for a while, like a month plus and out of your comfort zone.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really great. So what is next for you? Like are you, what's sort of like the next 10 years, 20, 30, for you? Oh my God. You know what? This has been the most surprising year ever. I was so surprised when I got my book deal.

But this year, the book actually came out. And every day has brought so many surprises. I don't even know how to plan for tomorrow. I feel like I was just born. And I'm like, what's the world? I have no idea. It's the most fun thing that's happened in the last year. Like, is there an experience that really stands out?

It's just been so beautiful. Have you met anybody that you were like, oh my God, I, like, loved this person from afar and I got to meet them because of my book coming out or something like that? Francesca Ramsey came to my first book event and that was really special because I've watched her YouTube channel for years. I'm just like so amazed by the people I've gotten to meet. A lot of them are strangers. You know, I'd like never heard of them in my life, but they've been so good to me. And I've met so many new friends, especially in New York and abroad. I am working on my second book and that is taking a lot of emotional energy.

because I'm... What's the vibe of it? So I wrote this book when I was like in my mid-20s. I'm now 31. And so a lot has changed. You know, I'm talking about a book that I wrote quite a while ago and I would have a pretty different perspective on a lot of these experiences now. And so now I'm writing kind of what's happened since then, a lot more about my illness,

for example, and going into these sort of darker places that I don't, I try not to go to because it makes me really sad. But I think that storytelling is so important. And I hope that people in similar circumstances, whether it's mental health or physical health issues, can understand that kind of pain. Do you think the important thing is being like, I've been there, I see you, or is there some sort of message from the other side that you're trying to communicate? No, there is no message. It's just connection. So like when I was dealing with the loss of my dad, other people's stories were such a life raft for me. And it wasn't about here's what you do.

In fact, that would have been really like hard for me to deal with. It was I walked through it and I survived. And because I did it, you can do it too. That was the feeling. Even like the really dark parts of it, even the thoughts of. self-harm and the thoughts of not being able to make it, I thought, you know, hearing those stories, like someone else has felt these and they got out. They survived and they told the story. I can tell this story too. And so I think just having people's stories without any prescription,

without any like message or lesson, because I don't know if those really, those are really helpful. I know that that's really important for people, at least it was for me. Yeah. I mean, I think that's why I think stories are the most important thing on the planet. Like, I elevate stories too, maybe too much. But I think it's crazy. It's also crazy because then for the person who's lived it, you get to say, I see you, I've been there. You can be like this. But then also, I think stories are magical because for the person who hasn't lived it, you're making them feel in some ways that they have, which is crazy. It's insane to have that power to be like you were here.

You can kind of feel like this or kind of learn what I learned here. I don't know. I think it's fascinating. Do you not feel like you like offer sort of like an end wisdom in your illustrations? Like do you feel like it's more just like a I see you, I felt this? Because I feel like there's a lot of like end wisdom there. Thank you. I try not to because, I mean, it's nice that that can be, you know, interpret it.

I try not to because that is not something that I think, when you're going through something, I think that can be harder to hear. When you're in the thick of something, you can't see the end. You just want to know that you're not alone in the thick of it. I think I do write from a place of perspective. So a lot of times I'll, you know, have that perspective from someone who's gone through it. But I try not to make that prescriptive. It's like what I'm going through now, which is the perspective, which I'm really grateful for.

And I think everyone will get in the end. But it's not going to be my perspective. It's not going to be the same. And, you know, when you're really, really going through something, I never wanted to hear that it was going to get better because it didn't feel like it was going to get better. I wanted to hear that it was really hard. Right. And so I think that it could be kind of annoying for people to think, oh, here's this person who's been through so much, and now she has all this wisdom.

Right. I'd rather be the person who says, I'm with you, and this is my perspective on it now. And for all the things I've been through, the loss of my dad, the loss of 900,000 relationships, the loss of trust in my body, I'll never. get over those. I'm never going to be through it. It's a part of me. And I hope that this, you know, continual evolution of myself can reflect some perspective on that in the way that it changes. But it's always going to be there. It's always going to be hard. But it's also going to be like the reason why I enjoy my life as much as I do. I know. You really do feel like you like enjoy the shit

out of your life. I really do. It's really impressive. Thank you. I'd be not to talk about relationships briefly. Oh, sure. I feel like they feature so strongly in your book. Do you, are you, you want, do you want to get married someday or no? Definitely. And do you feel, I know a lot of my girlfriends, it's like a very real point of anxiety that they're like, am I going to meet my person, especially as they get older?

Do you feel like that or are you just like trust in the process? Sometimes I feel that way. I think that there's, um, a. Yeah. The feeling of scarcity is really, really hard to deal with. And that's the feeling when you get dumped by the guy you thought things were going really well with. And that can be after one week. You know, it can just be like someone you thought, oh, I finally met someone cool who I really connect with. It's so rare. And then it's like, oh, no, that wasn't it. There's no one left. There's no one who will ever understand me again. That feeling of scarcity can put you in a place of like, I am running out of time. I'm running out of like outfits. Like I am just never going to meet him. That can be really hard. But when I'm like fully single,

like not recently dumped, not necessarily looking for someone, I feel really good. I feel like I have a whole life and I'm really enjoying just looking at all these beautiful men and who could be next. But it's that constant like ping pong between abundance and scarcity.

That's really interesting. So do you feel like you're good at in relationships or your conception of relationships being very much in this moment versus being like, I'm going to be 35 and then I'm going to be 40? My gosh, again, it's a ping pong. Like sometimes I'll feel so present and I'm like, I don't have a care in the world. I'm just enjoying this. And then something will happen. Like he won't text for a few hours and it's like, oh my God, I'm going to be 40 in nine years. But I really try not to think in terms of age because.

again, I mean, this is the blessing of like an illness. I mean, like not to get in a really bleak place, but you could meet the love of your life and he could die tomorrow. Or you could die. Or you could die. So it really is necessary to keep that perspective that everything is temporary. There is not one thing that's given. There is not one thing that's permanent. And if you're not enjoying it, like the end.

And I feel like that sometimes. And then I almost feel like I have to remind myself that, I don't know, part of life seems to be like stuff that sucks and stuff that's hard doing it anyways towards some sort of greater end. And I never know how to reconcile that with this idea of like, well, I could die tomorrow, which I really feel like because I have anxiety about that, you know? Yeah. And so like when is it important? So I call that like, I think there's a difference between doing something that's hard. I call it like investing. So if I'm investing in a relationship, a friendship, whatever, my cat, whatever, it's not always fun, but I'm investing love into this person, this soul that I do really care about.

If I'm investing in a person who is not giving me a lot back, who I'm just like trying to kind of win over, that's not good. That's hard. If I'm investing in dating all the time and it's just like running me down and making me feel bad about myself, that's not good. If I'm investing in someone I have a great relationship with, if I'm investing in someone I just started dating and I'm feeling great, I'm dressing up, I'm going on fun dates, that's great. It's such a feeling for me. It's not, there is no like formula. If I'm investing in drawing because I feel like I have a strong, story to tell. And I feel like I have to connect to these people who write to me. That's fine. You know, that's real. But if I'm investing in drawing because I want one million Instagram followers,

that's not cool. Does that make sense? So it's more like if I'm investing in something that's good and beautiful and whole, that's fine. But if I'm investing in like one specific goal, getting that ring on my finger, getting a certain number of followers, or even getting like one book deal. That's like too much to put on one specific goal that's so fragile. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes total sense. I love that. That's like a really nice way to sum up that type of perspective. Okay. I have a few questions I ask everybody and I feel like the first one I'm really excited to hear your answer for. Oh, great. Which is have you ever been to anywhere in the world and been like this place really got it right in terms of like living a healthy, happy life? And if so,

where was it? Brazil. Definitely. I felt so healthy in Brazil. Like all the rice and beans and cappareneas? Oh my God, so many capparinas. Asaille was like a big thing. How long were you there for? Is it for two weeks? In Rio the whole time?

In Rio. I don't know. I felt like my tummy felt good. My sleeping was good. Yeah, perfect life balance. People would live by the beach for like so much more money than they would if they were living farther in town. Just because they knew that going to the beach every day, like really affected their mental health.

That's awesome. Yeah, that is awesome. I love that. Is there a purchase that you've made that you feel like has most helped you become healthier or happier? Probably what comes to mind is the most expensive clothing item I own, which is a sweater. And it's just a random gray sweater. Can I ask how much it was? $600.

Whoa. And I got it for my birthday. What, like, spoke to you about it? I love buying a special item on a special trip. And I was in Seattle for my birthday, just where I grew up. It wasn't, like, that special. But it was special because I hadn't lived there in a long time. I was with my mom.

You went into my favorite store of all time, which was, like, kind of my entryway to, like, what cool style is. You know, not super fashionable. just like style. And we went in there and we saw this sweater. And it was like the most, it's just this gray sweater. But it was so beautiful. And the woman who owned the store loved this sweater so much. And she put it on.

She taught me how to style it. And she said, this is going to be like the best sweater of your life. And I wear it every single day. At some point in the day, I wear it. And it feels like home. Like even in the New York City summer? You're like at home, yeah. Yeah, like I put it on every day.

It feels like my mom. It feels like a hug. And it helps me, like, remember who I am. I wear it on every flight. It's like a adult security blanket. That's so lovely. I love that. What's one really big mistake you've made and what's something you really got right?

All of my mistakes are times when I made someone feel bad. Like, I try not to have regrets in life because who knows, what decisions brought me to where I am. But every mistake is a time that I was rude or I spoke badly about someone or I was like sort of careless with my words. And there's so many of those. Something I got right. Probably when I want to do that and I don't.

Like I get a lot of internet trolls. It's really hard for me to deal with. Do you ever like clap back? So the time, actually I really regret when I do. And I still do it. I feel like it would actually be so sad. Like when you see like Chrissy Tegan like clap bag. I know.

And it's like you're like go Chrissy. I know, but I'm not as clever as her. And whenever I try to like reason with them or defend myself, which is a very natural human instinct, like you want to defend yourself. But I feel like Chrissy doesn't do that. Chrissy just like finds funny ways to say fuck off. I know. I'm just not clever enough. I'm not clever enough. So when I do it, it's like kind of embarrassing. And whenever I do it, I regret it. And I know, I know I'm going to regret it. What do people, like, I feel like your illustrations are literally just exercises and

empathy. So I have a hard time figuring out what people would have to troll you about. I could give you. What's like an example of something? Are they just like completely nonsensical, like hay slut or are they like actually grounded in? A lot of them are, a lot of the ones that are really painful that aren't as, they aren't that mean, but the ones that actually affect me the most are the ones that seem like judgments on my life. And what I always want to say is like, you don't know anything about me. But who is that really helping?

They're going to project whatever they're going to project. Right. I also think it was interesting that you said earlier that. sometimes the writing is even like sort of fictionalized. Like you're not just chronicling your exact, you do an illustration every day, but it's not just chronically your life every day as it happens. And I think that the second you,

I re-conceptualized you is like, oh, she's a writer, and this is just her form of writing versus this is her diary and I'm reading it. It's very different. Yeah. Yeah, it would be kind of, it would be a little unhinged to put my entire diary out there on Instagram. I'm not like in a good,

mental place to do that. I draw from memory and I often draw from friends' experiences that mirror my own. So like that's so silly, but like you know how like Carrie Bradshaw is writing her column and whatever she's going through, somehow

her friends happen to be going through it at the same time in a similar way? That's kind of what happens to me. It's like I'll hear oftentimes especially with relationship stuff. I mean I do date a lot. So, you know, there is that. But I also have a long history. I have 10 years of dating.

So I have a lot to draw from. And I've only been illustrating for two years. So, you know, I have a lot to, like, go through. But sometimes my friend will be going through something and I'll think, oh, that's so familiar to me, you know, for whatever reason. I can't think of the person it happened with, but that's a really familiar feeling. Like I resonate with that feeling. Totally.

And I'll draw about that. So it's not necessarily about the guy I'm seeing now. I think that would be a really hard way to live and certainly hard for the people around. me. So I try to keep it, you know, pretty fictionalized. And I do my best work when I'm happy. So a lot of times I'm able to. That's interesting. So you're not like a suffering artist. I've suffered plenty in my life. And I can like draw from that. So when I'm in like a really happy place, I draw so well, you know, from the past pain because I have the best perspective and I have the most humorous perspective. lightest perspective, as opposed to the like really sad emo stuff that I make when you're in and

everything feels like so important. Exactly. Exactly. For sure. That's really interesting. That is when people tell me that, you know, I'm pathetic. And I agree with them. It is pathetic. So people would actually say like you're pathetic. Yeah. Oh my God. Oh, definitely. Yeah. That's a big one. I just don't. I do not understand internet trolling because I can barely make myself comment to people I know. And like When something's, or like, when I'm, I always think it's really funny when people like go to the fuck Jerry and they write like not, they don't tag a friend in it. They just like write something. And I'm like, he's not looking at that. Like what you're writing to nothing and no one.

And that's even on a positive side, you know? So the idea. It's a lot of effort. I'm just like, what are you doing? I think that's so interesting. Okay. This is my final thing because of the internet thing. You said that you've like actually made real life friends based on the internet.

How in the world does that, like, where you, like, go from commenting or liking each other's pictures being like, oh, let's hang out in real life? I know. I, that's such a good question, and I'm not really sure. Can you give any? I'm just, because I think social media is scary to people, but it does have this really special ability to bring you together with your tribe that you may not have found elsewhere. But I think taking that step offline is crucial and so weird and hard to do. I completely agree. And it's happened in completely different ways for everyone. Sometimes there'll be someone I admire for a long time, like an really established, quote, famous person.

And I so admire them. And then for some reason, you know, one day we end up at the same event. And it's like, cool, you're here. I've admired you forever. Right. And then we really connect. It's not just about what you do because a lot of people, you know, two bankers don't necessarily have that much in common outside of banking, just because I'm, you know, I illustrate my feelings and so does someone else, doesn't necessarily mean we're going to be best friends, but there are a lot of people who I found a lot of commonalities with. And because I work by myself, it's nice to have like co-workers in a way. You can talk about things that are

difficult about the life or, you know, even commenters or, you know, these things that other people don't necessarily get right away. It's nice to have someone, you know, to talk to about that stuff. I have had to sort of disengage from my public account just because it's healthier for me to not read comments, not scroll as much in there. It is, it's just a very, it can be kind of a tiring place for me to be. And so I used to be so much more engaged and I really miss that. And, back in the day, you know, I was so engaged. I was always commenting and liking and like aware of what people were doing. And then I, you know, got to know a lot of people early on, which was really, really lovely. There's an illustrator in London, Tiny Moron, who I talk to every single day.

I've never met her. I don't know if I will meet her, but we... Do you guys talk about, like real things? Yeah, like boys. I mean, we rarely talk about Instagram. and we just found each other early on. Like we were both starting out kind of at the same time. And we would just comment all the time. And there was something that we saw in each other. And now we have a real friendship. And that's beautiful.

Do you ever feel like, do you ever meet normal people online? Or do you feel like that sort of, is it safer with people who are quote unquote famous because you don't feel like they're trying to like get something out of you somehow? I do. When I feel like a real connection. and it's totally about intuition. I mean, it's very woo-woo, but it's like you can feel when it's a real connection with someone, just like you can.

In real life. In real life. Yeah. Exactly. And you can feel, I mean, I don't want to like get too ridiculous, but you can feel an energy from someone's message in the way that they phrase things and the way they write and the way they approach you. And if I feel like a very real connection, absolutely I'll meet up.

with that person. It takes a lot, you know, it takes that, like, feeling to really say, wow, this is, like, someone I would really like to get to know. It's just, like, dating or anything. You know, it's like, you just, so much of it is intangible and you can't articulate it. It's just like, oh, I just think it's that element of, like, how we've talked about the person you see on social media is such, like, a small, slim sliver of a person. Yeah.

And so I'm always like, how can I really connect with you enough to even want to get a drink when I'm just seeing this minuscule portion of who you are? Exactly. And I think it's the person who recognizes that that I probably connect to the most. You know? Interesting. Like the person who doesn't assume. Like, I got you figured out. Right.

Yeah. But just like, yeah. I like the work you do. And, you know, then I'm able to access their little world. and see what they put of themselves. Yeah. You know, into social media. And that's, it's not, you know, very indicative of too much about their life, but it's indicative

of their values and what they're interested in sharing. And, you know, for me, that's pretty, that's a pretty good indicator of what we have to connect. That's really interesting. The idea that, like, you're not really putting who you are out on social media, but you're, since it's a publicly reflecting thing, what you're choosing says a certain thing about you anyways. That's really interesting. Yeah. It's not the whole story, but it's a bit of a story. It's the start of a story. And if I like the beginning of a story, I'll read the rest.

Yeah. And it's like, bored of it. Exactly. Exactly. And then I'll just throw it under my bed. Yeah. Yeah. Forget about it forever. Exactly. Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. My pleasure. This is great. This is lovely. Ugh, I love her. I just think she's so cool and aspirational, I guess. But but also really down to earth and open and empathetic and emotional and all the things that I really, really love in a human being. And I just think that we're all so lucky that she exists and shares her thoughts and musings and feelings with all of us.

As always, if you did like this episode, please, please subscribe to the podcast and leave a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps other people find the podcast. And if you want to help other people find the podcast, you can always help other people find the podcast, you can also literally just tell them to come and listen to it. If there's somebody that you think would benefit from Mari's wisdom, please share the podcast with them. I would appreciate it.

And I'm also, I don't know, I feel like I learned so much from her and I'm excited to see her get to share that knowledge with anybody that you feel like she should share it with. I really appreciate you guys listening and I hope to see you guys next time. Have a great day. If you have headaches, allergies, brain fog, skin irritation, or you've been dealing with hormone issues, you are especially going to want to listen to this ad. Every single thing that I just listed has been linked to chemicals and household cleaners. One study found that regular use of cleaning sprays was associated with a lung function decline comparable to smoking 10 to 20 cigarettes per day.

Synthetic fragrances are a well-documented migraine trigger and a number of studies have linked ingredients in common household cleaners to fertility issues, thyroid dysfunction, mood changes, and more because of their impact on our endocrine systems. Luckily, you can just make one simple swap and you can eliminate all of those risk factors that you get from common household cleaners. Branch Basics makes cleaning products that are plant and mineral based, completely fragrance-free, and made safe certified, meaning they are screened against thousands of known and suspected harmful chemicals.

And best of all, you literally use one product, but you mix it with different amounts of water to make your kitchen spray, your bathroom cleaner, your laundry detergent, your produce wash, your glass cleaner, literally everything. It does not smell. It does not give me headaches. It does not give me rashes or itchiness from clothes because you are. Remember, we're using this for laundry. We're using this for literally everything.

And it works so well. Everything gets so clean. And I know that I'm protecting myself from all of those long-term issues, too. And I'm protecting my kittens who are much tinier than me. So anything they're exposed to has a much greater impact on their little tiny systems. And they're running around on their little paws and then they're licking them. So I'm protecting them too. Branch Basics is now available at Target.com, Amazon and branchbasics.com.

So it's easier than ever to make the switch. And if you want to grab their premium starter kit, you can use code Liz Moody for 15% off at branchbasics.com. That's code Liz Moody for 15% off the premium starter. starter kit at branchbasics.com. And when they ask you where you heard about us, please make sure to mention the show. That is branchbasics.com and use code Liz Moody. The mattress that you sleep on is one of the highest exposures that you have. Like if it's off gassing, you're breathing that in for basically a third of your life. And most conventional mattresses are loaded with synthetic

foams, flame retardants, microplastics, and more. Plus, if it's not comfy, you're going to be tossing and turning. You're going to be really hot. And sleep is the foundation of health. It is so important. Because of all of this, if I were not going to invest in any other part of my house, no other things in my house, I would invest in my mattress. And in fact, I have four years well before I had much money to spend on any of these things because it is such a big needle mover. The birch mattress is incredible. It is made with organic cotton, natural latex, and ethically sourced wool. So it has literally no off-gassing. You can not smell anything right when you unbox it. It has no microplastics, no synthetic foams or flame retardants. And the wool makes it so breathable,

which if you've listened to this podcast for more than five minutes, you know that I run very, very hot. Like I am a furnace. Zach has basically accepted that sleeping next to me is like sleeping next to like a little fire. And the birch mattress has been a game changer for that. It's made me sleep so much better. Like I can see my sleep score going up because I'm not hot all night long. It's also hypoallergenic, which is really worth paying attention to if you find yourself waking up stuffy or congested. Dust mites in a conventional mattress can actually impact your breathing and your sleep quality without you even realizing it. And again, we need to be able to breathe to get good sleep and getting good sleep is the foundation of our health. And then comfort-wise, Zach sleeps on his back and then I sleep on my side and my stomach.

So we have two completely different sleep styles and we both wake up feeling really good, no aches and pains. CNN actually named the Birch mattress the best mattress for side sleepers and Wired named it the best organic mattress period. So there you go. Burch has options for every kind of sleeper in your household. They have three firmness layers. I like the Lux Natural, which is the medium one. And then parents, they even have a Birch Kids natural mattress. Birch ships right to your door. It sets up in minutes and it comes with a 120-night risk-free trial. So if it is not for you, they will pick it up for free. You have nothing to lose here. I want all of you to enjoy a deep restful night sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com slash Liz Moody for 20% off. That is birchliving.com slash

Liz Moody and you're going to get 20% off birchliving.com slash Liz Moody.