The Liz Moody Podcast - Set Better Boundaries: Overcome Uncomfortable Conversations, Spot Manipulation Red Flags, & Take Back Control Of Your Time with Melissa Urban

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

I’m so excited to welcome Melissa Urban to the podcast. You’ve probably heard of Melissa as the co-founder of Whole30—she’s a six-time New York Times bestselling author, has a social media following of over 350,000 people, and her work has been featured by the New York Times, People, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, The Today Show, and more. Through the Whole30, Melissa found an avenue to empower people to set and hold boundaries, which led to her newest book—The Book of Boundaries: Set The Limits That Will Set You Free. On this episode, we talk about:   why setting boundaries is important how to know exactly what boundaries to set exact scripts to set boundaries around: people commenting on your weigh or pushing you to drink alcohol or party, a boss who wants you to work all the time, a friend who wants you to spend a ton of money on her bachelorette or wedding how to overcome fear of confrontation Melissa’s top confidence tips quiet quitting  how to deal when you disagree with other people on what boundaries need to be set how to show up to support other peoples’ boundaries better why it’s so important to set boundaries with yourself + exactly how to do it a science-backed secret to increasing willpower  the number one thing people get wrong about setting boundaries  and so much more!  We would LOVE to hear from you any thoughts, reactions, or takeaways you have as you’re listening, so definitely screenshot and tag me @lizmoody and Melissa @melissau on Instagram.  To join the Healthier Together Podcast Club Facebook group, go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/healthiertogetherpodcast. This episode is sponsored by Seed. You can get 15% off your first month's supply of Seed's DS-01™ Daily Synbiotic by going to https://seed.com/daily-synbiotic and using the code LIZMOODY.  This episode is sponsored by AG1 by Athletic Greens. Visit athleticgreens.com/healthiertogether and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today.  This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley. Head over to paleovalley.com and use the code LIZM for 15% off. This episode is sponsored by Ritual. Get 10% off your first three months of Ritual when you visit ritual.com/healthier and add the Essential Protein to your order.  Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the healthier together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and long-time journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're learning exactly what to eat for longevity, getting tips on how to be happier in our careers, or unlocking secrets for loving our bodies just the way they are. And yes, those are all real episodes, so if any of those topics sound good to you, scroll on back in the archives. Today, we're talking about something we all could probably be implementing more of

into our lives. Boundaries. The word gets thrown around a lot, but I think a lot of us struggle to identify when and where a boundary needs to be put up and how to actually go about having those tough conversations with our friends, our partners, our coworkers, our parents, and more, which is why I am so excited to welcome Melissa Urban to the podcast. You've probably heard of Melissa as the co-founder of Whole 30. She's a six-time New York Times best-selling author, and her work has been featured by media outlets like people, the Wall Street Journal, the Today Show and more. Her newest book, The Book of Boundaries, Set the Limits That Will Set You You Free, features 130-plus scripts to help you set boundaries and comes out next week. She actually

has a pre-order bonus on her website at melissa-u.com, so definitely check that out. In this episode, we talk about why setting boundaries is so important, how to know exactly what boundaries to set, exact scripts for setting boundaries in all types of life situations, including people commenting on your weight, friends pushing you to drink alcohol or party, A boss who keeps asking you to work all the time or a friend who wants you to spend a ton of money on her bachelorette or wedding. We talk about how to overcome fear of confrontation, Melissa's top confidence tips, her take on quiet quitting, how to deal when you disagree with other people on what boundaries need to be set, how to show up to support other people's boundaries better, why it's so important to set boundaries with yourself,

plus exactly how to do it. A science-backed secret to increasing willpower. the number one thing that people get wrong about setting boundaries and so much more. Melissa and I would both love to hear your thoughts as you're listening and I am so interested to hear what tips you plan to implement into your own life and what boundaries that you're setting. So definitely share and tag us both on Instagram. I am at Liz Moody and she's at Melissa you. If something really resonates with you in this episode and I have a feeling it will,

please share with someone that you love so they can hear all of Melissa's amazing boundary setting advice. I think this episode would be a really great conversation starter with a partner, a friend, a parent, a sibling, or really anyone that you want to have a chat with about boundaries, but don't know quite where to begin. Sharing is also the best way to support the podcast, so thank you for continuing to share and grow healthier together in this wonderful community. I see you and you are so appreciated. Okay, are you ready to have your mind blown? Let's get right into it with Melissa Urban. Thank you so much for joining me today, Melissa. I am so excited to talk about your beautiful book. It feels like a left turn, but it also feels like the most natural thing in the world for you to be talking about.

It really is more of a progression, I think, than a left turn. If you've been following what I've been doing through Whole 30 since 2009, I've been helping people set boundaries for 13 years. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about how the boundary conversation started with you in your head, in your life. Well, the first boundary I personally ever set was 22 years ago when I was fresh out of recovery for my drug addiction for the second time and found myself at a party I shouldn't be at with people I didn't know doing God knows what in the bathroom and realizing that I could not be there. And I was there with a friend and in an act of complete desperation, I just blurted out what was to become the first boundary I would ever set, which is I can't be here. I need to go home. And through that experience, I realized how boundaries were really the key to expanding my recovery and therefore my life. And that kind of began my own personal process with the whole 30 in 2009. It's a 30-day elimination program. You say no a lot. And people are uncomfortable, especially in social settings. So I was helping them say no to break room pizza and donuts and their mom's pasta and the glass of wine at happy hour. And I think once people figured out I was really good at

helping them say no to that, they started coming to me with their toxic mother-in-law, their pushy co-worker, their nosy neighbor. And so that's sort of the extension of the conversation. Do you think that some people are born with the ability to say no better than other people? Like, do you think this is an innate skill you have? Sometimes, I think it is. I don't know if you know anyagram types or your Gretchen-in-Ruven tendency. I don't know mine. I'm a hard eight, which is the challenger type, which means by nature, I'm not afraid of confrontation. I have never been known as what you might think of as a people pleaser. It's like not in my nature.

So I'm not that one. So I think for some people, it does come easier to others. Other people are more obligers if you follow the Gretchen Rubin archetype or people pleasers. But boundaries are not a skill that we are taught. They're not taught to us in school. They're not talked to us in college, not as part of the workplace. And if they weren't modeled for us through our families, which very often they aren't, then it's one of those skills you have to pick up as you go. and it tends to be a moment of crisis where you realize, whoa, I am seriously lacking in this information and then you have to go out and seek it. Do you think that anybody can learn to set great boundaries?

Absolutely. 100%. You can learn. And I call it a practice just like anything else. It's a skill for sure, but you will always practice. I'm not great at it the first time around and I still occasionally find it uncomfortable. But when you are armed with the right mindset and the right language, anybody can learn have to set boundaries. So can you convince us first that it's worth it? And then we'll get into all

of the practical tips and tools and we'll learn to set better boundaries. But what are the advantages of becoming an amazing boundary center? When you think about how much time and energy and energetic capacity, maybe it's money, maybe it's so much of your physical space, we are giving up because it is uncomfortable to advocate for ourselves. And I hear this a lot from women. And I hear it especially for moms, when you start a boundary practice, you realize that you don't have to walk around in your relationships and in your day feeling resentful, angry, anxious, frustrated, dreading certain interactions, avoiding certain people. There's so much energetic expenditure that goes along with the avoidance of the thing. And yes, setting the boundary can be uncomfortable,

but it's like a momentary discomfort and leads to actual change that brings real freedom into your life. Relationships are better. You feel more trusting, more respectful. You reclaim your energy and your time and your capacity and your money and your physical space and you reaffirm that you are worthy of having needs and having those needs be respected. It's really a foundational skill that flows into any, like, wellness practice, habit practice, health practice you want to start. You told us about the party. What boundaries are you setting right now in your life that you feel like are making the biggest difference? Mostly around saying no to work things. So I'm in a busy season right now. We're getting ready for the book launch. I have a lot of podcast invitations and opportunities to travel. And do you want a guest write for this piece? And I know that if I don't manage my energetic expenditure, well, I'm going to head into Book Tour already depleted. So I'm becoming very stringent about what I say yes and what I say no to. And I'm never saying yes automatically. I am always pausing to ask myself, do I have capacity for this? Does it serve me? Will I be able to recover effectively from this? So that's one area right now that I'm really focused on.

So I find those questions really interesting because I think it can be more difficult than we talk about to know what boundaries we need to set. So how can we start to identify those areas and maybe what are those questions we should ask ourselves in the different areas of our life to know if we need a boundary? I think most people have a general sense that something about this relationship, this conversation or this environment doesn't make me feel good. And it's just this general sense of unease. And when you probe a little bit more, you can then identify exactly what it is. So if you feel a sense of dread or anxiety, that is the very first alarm bell that a boundary is needed around a certain conversation topic or with a person. It's the coworker that you see passing by your desk and you kind of hide so you don't have

to have a run-in with them or the neighbor that you just close the garage door quickly because you don't want to chat with them. if you feel like you can't show up as your full self with somebody in a particular relationship, if you don't know where you stand with them, if you leave interactions, just feeling less good about yourself. Or if you leave interactions and you're running through the stuff in your head of what you could have said, what you could have done, how you should have handled that, those are all giant alarm bells that a boundary is needed.

Let's say you feel that way. You've identified the feeling. How do you know what the specific boundary that needs to be? set is. So I have a worksheet that goes along with the book that anybody who pre-orders or orders really can download. But essentially, if you start with this big, I don't like engaging with my in-laws. Okay, like, why? What about it specifically? Maybe it's that they drop by without calling, and that makes you feel really invaded and your personal space is invaded. Maybe it's because every time you see them, it's because your mother-in-law comments on your body or your appearance,

and you just wish that she wouldn't. And if that were the thing that you took away, all of a sudden you would have a lot more freedom in the relationship. So it's really thinking through and getting very specific with what aspect of this interaction is making me feel that dread or anxiety, and what kind of limit could I set or could I communicate effectively to help relieve that? We're going to get into a lot of the nuanced tips for how to approach different situations, but are there some general communication tips you can start us off with that we can use in any situation as we start to brave this conversation? One of the things that I think is really impactful, and I just mentioned it, is if you just employed a pause before you said yes or no to anything,

anything, just a pause. Maybe that pauses one minute while you consider. Maybe it's an hour, maybe it's a day. Thank you so much for thinking of me for this project. Let me check my calendar and my schedule. I'll get back to you. Or thank you so much for inviting us on this vacation. It does sound fun. Let me go home and think about it for the weekend. Or, hey, that party this weekend sounds great. I'm not sure if we're going to be able to make it. Let me get back to you later.

Like, you know, not an unreasonable amount of time, but if we just employed that pause, it would buy us the space and time. I also really like the idea of just people embracing the idea that no thank you is a perfectly polite response. You do not need to over-explain, justify, provide a reason. You can just say, no, thank you. And very often in these situations, that's all you need. It makes me so nervous.

I picture saying no thank you and them just staring at me and waiting for more. And then I'm like, oh, okay, I'll give you more. So they might, right? Very often, especially as women, we've been conditioned to believe that we have to have a good reason for basically anything we want. And very often, the other person has to agree with or approve our reason before we can have it. And I think it's incredibly empowering just to say no thank you. And if somebody just sits there waiting for you to say more, for you to just sit there too and be comfortable with that. Oh, my God. And if people say why, there's an easy follow-up,

which is, I just don't want to. I'm just not feeling it. I'm not drinking right now. I'm not a donut person. I just don't want it. There's so many general things you can say that nobody can argue with that are perfectly reasonable to hold this boundary. And in the spirit of good communication, you might want to share more in an effort to deepen your connection and to be more vulnerable. The reason I've asked you not to comment on my body or weight is because the pandemic has done a number on my mental health. And I'll be honest, I find myself really fixated on how I look. And even if you mean it as a compliment, it gets me inside my own head. So I'm asking, can you help me with this? That's one thing. That's very different than setting a boundary and then

feeling forced to explain it or justify it and force the other people, the other person to, like, agree with it. That's not necessary. Do you have any pragmatic tips, though, for when I'm sitting in that discomfort? If we're not an enneagram eight and we're just like, this is so awkward in that moment, what can we do? I mean, the alternative, Liz, is that you give in to make the other person comfortable and you sell yourself out. And then you've given you. You've given you. yourself the message that you are not worth holding onto your need, that your needs are not worthy. And that's a really powerful message to internalize. When we think about what happens when we give in like this, we use words like, we eat it, we swallow it, we shove it down. And like,

I really feel like somatically that energy stays in our body. So it is uncomfortable. But I think it's Glennon Doyle who says, disappoint everybody else. before you're willing to disappoint yourself. And I do think it takes practice. Practice with people that you know our safe spaces to do this with. So when I say after this podcast, hey, do you want to go to lunch? No, thank you. I'm super tired.

I'm going to go back to my hotel. Let me then affirm that for you and go, I totally get it. Super proud of you. Go back to your hotel. Have a good time. Practice that with people so that when you are met with resistance or pushback, you have that experience and that groove of like, I can say no. They can be disappointed.

and that is okay. I'll tell you that I'm going to wait 24 hours to let you know if you go to lunch after the podcast. Got to take some time to think about this one. That's totally fair. So half of your book is basically these scripts that actually walk people through scenarios they might run into a boundary setting in their life. And I love that format because you can be like, okay, I got the ideas in theory, but in practice it's so difficult. You can't go through all of them because there's obviously, do you know how many have? 130. More than 130. Yeah. Yeah. Like you thought of every scenario. We tried to in every relationship and every script has the green, yellow, red framework for escalating boundary language. Yeah, can you explain the green yellow red framework?

Yeah. It was really important for me to include scripts because like you, if the idea of saying no is uncomfortable, finding the words is just really hard in the moment. Like, okay, I know that I need to set a boundary here. I'm already uncomfortable doing it. How do I say it? So I wanted to provide people with how you actually say it. But then my boundary philosophy is essentially like minimum effort, maximum effect. How gentle and kind can you go in and set this boundary and still have it be respected? Because that is the best case scenario. I'm not going to walk in and like kick your doors open with my boundary. If I could just say a gentle, no thank you. So green language is sort of the threat is minimal. You're going in nice and gently. If it needs to escalate for whatever reason, they're giving you

pushback or they forget a number of times you can escalate to yellow. And then the red boundary is essentially your overstep of my limit is such a threat to my safety or health or our relationship that I am now enacting the consequence. This is the action I'm going to take to keep myself safe and healthy. If you have headaches, allergies, brain fog, skin irritation, or you've been dealing with hormone issues, you are especially going to want to listen to this ad. Every single thing that I just listed has been linked to chemicals and household cleaners. One study found that regular use of cleaning sprays was associated with a lung function decline comparable to smoking 10 to 20 cigarettes per day. Synthetic fragrances are a well-documented migraine trigger and a number of studies have

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And I think especially in older generations where you look thin or you look like you've lost weight is the ultimate complement. So I think a green boundary would simply be to say, I appreciate that. I'd rather not talk about my body, thanks. Tell me about that sweater, though. That looks fantastic on you. Changing the subject is such an effective tactic when you set a boundary because it gives the other person a little bit of an out if they feel uncomfortable for overstepping your limit. And it indicates that this is really not a subject of conversation. So you can just say something simple like, please don't comment on my body or I'd really rather not talk about my weight. That's not a subject I'd like to talk about simple. Okay, and then a yellow. So if they continue, then you would say, I've asked you not to comment on my body,

even if you mean it as a compliment, I really need you to respect that. So now it's a little more firm, right? I'm restating the boundary. I'm sort of giving it a little bit of context, and I'm saying, I need you to respect that. And the unsaid consequence is, or I'm going to remove myself from the conversation. And the red boundary in that situation would be to say, this is not a conversation I want to be a of and you leave the table. You find another conversation partner, you leave the room. Or maybe if it's a relationship like your mom, it might be, mom, I'm not going to be able to spend time with you over food

if you can't respect this limit that I'm trying to set with you. You may need to find other ways to engage with this person in a way that does not involve your mental health being harmed by their overstep of your limit. Okay, let's try another one. What about friends who are pushing you to drink or party or socialize in a way that you don't want to. These kind of make me really mad because I feel like alcohol is sort of the only thing we have to justify. Nobody's like, why don't you smoke cigarettes? It's so weird. Like just have one. So again, my go-to is just no thank you. No thanks. I'll have a water thanks. I'm good with water thanks. Not drinking tonight. The second time someone pushes, you can say, again, I'm good, thanks. And I say it a little more

slowly and a little more deliberate and I'm holding some eye contact to send the message, I'm okay, and then I would turn and perfectly polite. I'm not being rude, but I'm being a little more direct. And the third time, I might say something like, you've asked me three times and I've said no, I think it's pretty clear and I'd like you not to ask again. And or I would simply remove myself from that conversation or from the environment. Maybe your red boundary is, I'm in recovery, and you should not press people to drink like that. It's not appropriate or polite. Whatever that language looks like for you. But at that point, you are saying to the person, I am now going to take the steps that I need to keep myself safe from your peer pressure.

So I think that the first example was really about confronting our fear of confrontation. The interesting thing about the alcohol partying example is that I think the fear that we have to get over there is like a fear of judgment. And I'm curious if you have any advice for getting over the fear that other people will think you're a loser. Okay, so it goes both ways. You are afraid maybe that other people are going to think, or they overtly say, you're no fun, in which case I'm like, okay. But we want to be fun, you know? But I am fun. That's the ridiculous thing. So you're confident enough. You're just like, I know I'm fun. I don't need you to say I'm fun. I think that reflection always says volumes about that person and says nothing about me. Their assumption that I am not fun if I

am not drinking is really just me holding up a mirror and them kind of examining their own behaviors around alcohol. And it speaks volumes as to what they're thinking, but it doesn't say anything about me. So that's kind of an immature response, like you're no fun. And sometimes I would say something like, okay, watch me. Or maybe you're not as fun as you think or whatever that looks like, depending on the relationship. But what can also happen when you say no, and depending on how you say no, is the other person can then feel judged. So I don't like to say something like, No, I'm working on my health right now, or no drinking's not very healthy. I'm trying not to do anything that maybe assumes judgment because I don't want to give into a defensive kind of

conversation. That's why a simple no thank you is so beautiful. You can't argue with the idea that I just don't want to drink right now. And it's really simple and really easy. And if they still assume judgment from that, that's not my problem or responsibility. This is a little bit of a tangent, but you are so self-actualized and so confident. And I'm curious if you have any confidence tips that we could steal from you. So in that moment, we can feel like we know ourselves. We trust ourselves. We don't need the affirmation from other people.

I mean, I've done so much therapy. Like, if I am confident, is because I've been in therapy, basically my whole life. I've done exercises all throughout therapy where I decide how I feel about things that I am or things that I've done. So when someone would say to me, you're not that fun, I can go back to my own internal inventory and go, do I think I'm fun? How fun am I? In what ways am I fun? Am I just not fun in the way that this person thinks is fun? And I know how I feel about whether or not I'm fun. So whatever you say, kind of doesn't matter. You can think I'm the funest person in the world and I'm like, that's cool. I love that that's how you're experiencing me. Or you can say you're no fun at all

and I can go, that's not true, but that's just how you're choosing to see it now and that's okay. Well, and I think it's an interesting thing to internalize that the other person's judgment actually doesn't really matter. Like, I think it hurts the most when it scratches your own deep-seated fear that you're not fun. Yes. But that's not going to change if other people tell you you're fun until the end of time. It's not because it's two sides of the same coin. If I am uplifted and buoyed by the fact that you think I'm fun when the next person thinks I'm not fun, now I'm dragged down. You cannot have one without the other. So you're either living and dying via external validation or you decide how you feel about it yourself. Which one of those would

you recommend? The second one, as painful as it is, because I've done the last one in my early days. And it's exhausting. I've done it too. And it's such a roller coaster to have your mood and your self-image and your self-worth just go up and down based on who you interact with. I found myself image crafting and wanting to show only the side of me. And I had this, I could only be perfect now because I need other people to think X, Y, Z. And yeah, it's really tiring. Is there any exercise or anything you did to get rid of that? I want to be perfect. I want to appear a certain way to other people. I'm a huge fan of Byron Katie. She wrote the book, Loving What Is and her practice of the work of questioning stressful thoughts and sort of

differentiating your story about what happened from what actually happened has been really game-changing for me. That's one practice when implemented that allowed me to see, a lot of these situations very differently and stopped telling myself stories about what it meant. When I walked in, you didn't say hi to me. She's mad at me. I invited myself on her podcast. She doesn't really want me to be here. Instead of just Liz didn't say hi. And now there's just no stress associated with it. And whatever that reason is, it's not my business. Did I not say hi to you? No, you did. I'm like flashing back and I'm like, what? No, you did. But we have these little things that happen and we tell ourselves stories about what it means, but we only tell the worst

stories. We never say, Liz didn't say hi because she is so excited for this podcast with me that she can't contain herself. We never tell ourselves those stories. So it's a practice to try to tell yourself the better story or to stop trying to tell yourself the story at all? It's recognizing that there is no story. The stress is coming from the story. And it's just what is. Because if I walked in and said, Liz did not say hi to me, that statement, as flat as it is, means absolutely nothing. And it's only when I tell my story about what it is that I get stressed. So that practice has been really, really helpful. Okay.

Back to boundary scenarios. What about a boundary scenario that might have a real life consequence? So I'm thinking about like you have a boss who keeps emailing you after hours or wants you to do work on vacation and you want to set a boundary with them, but you don't want to get fired. Yep. Yep. I mean, every potential boundary that you set can have a real life consequence in that if you are establishing a limit to keep yourself safe and help.

and the other person refuses or is unable to respect that limit, there needs to be a consequence. You have determined that this behavior is unhealthy or unsafe for you or bad for your relationship to a certain degree. And then you have to ask yourself, what are the lengths that I'm willing to go to enforce the limit and keep myself safe and healthy? At work, it's hard because sometimes your work environment is so toxic and so energetically draining and so taking advantage of you that the only way to remove yourself from the situation is to get a transfer, ask for a new boss, or quit your job. And that's not practical for a lot of

people. So there aren't a lot of super easy answers, but I do believe that you should be able to advocate for a safe and healthy and respectful work environment and that there are some tactics that you can do in the office like talk to your coworkers, present a united front, look at all of your human resources documentation to know what the company process and procedures are, find the diamond in the rough, the one boss who's not answering calls on vacation and say, like, teach me your ways. There are definitely things that you can do to advocate for yourself in the office because chances are if you're feeling it, other people are feeling it too. And maybe you can become the change maker that kind of helps rally others.

So you think taking like a there's power and numbers approach to setting a boundary makes sense in that situation? I mean, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, every single person in the office is saying, hey, you keep calling me while I'm out sick. And the company policy says that when we're out sick, we need to be able to rest and recover. That is very powerful. So being able to lean on HR policies, talking to your coworkers, and finding compromises when you can. Of course, your boundary needs to be flexible. So please don't call me after hours.

But if your office building is on fire, your boss should probably call you and let you know. Right. So demonstrating flexibility, I think, is really important there too. But we're all talking about quiet quitting right now and this idea of like just going in and doing our jobs, which is not really quitting. It's just about setting healthy boundaries. What do you think about quitting? I think it's a healthy boundary practice. It's this idea of a fair exchange of labor for value. And I think what people are missing in this conversation is that if you have a healthy office culture that is respectful of boundaries, respectful of persons, time, work time, personal space, your ethics and morals that recognizes employees' contributions and who goes above and beyond and creates this culture of transparency and leadership and teamwork, not family. If you have that culture, I'm going to be happy to stay a little bit late a couple nights if you really need me on the project. Or if you need to text me on a Saturday to ask me a question, I'm going to be happy to respond because that isn't expected and it is always appreciated. That's kind of the rollback of quiet quitting, which is your employees wouldn't

have to do that if you created a culture of respect and value in the first place. Yeah, and I think the problem with quiet quitting is it just by its definition implies that you can't have these conversations, which I think is a frustrating thing, both for the employer, because I think a lot of employers are like, well, if they said something to me, we would be able to change things. But then also for the person experiencing not feeling appreciated, feeling overworked, to have to sit and doing those feelings would feel awful. Yes, I run a company. I am in a position of power in which I know it's hard to come to me and say, this thing is not working for me or you are not taking good care of me in this scenario. So I think it's really important for people in management roles to both model the

healthy boundaries that they want the workplace to have. So if I'm saying we value work life balance and my employees see me sending emails at 11 p.m. on a Friday night, that's not walking the walk. So I think that's really important. And then creating a safe space to proactively have these conversations where you're not only like expecting them to come to you, but you're seeking them out, touching base. How are things going? How was your vacation? Did you find that you were able to actually unplug? You couldn't.

Let's talk about what happened and what we could do differently next time. And then modeling that transparently for the rest of the company, I think is really important. I love that. In my company, which is not as robust as your company, I have a list where I just keep a note basically after hour. Because I feel like a lot of people will send off the email because they're just like, I don't want to forget about this later. So I just have a list and then she can consult that list the next morning and see everything I thought about. Sometimes it's like a strategy thing. If you have a boss who's just not great with technology, show them how to schedule an email.

You can write that whole email out and you can schedule it to send at 903 tomorrow morning and go. Or you can draft the message in Slack and just leave it in the morning when you get in, you push send. There are so many things that you can use technology for to help set and hold that. boundaries, and sometimes it's just a discussion around that. Is that part of the boundary conversation, the idea of strategizing with the other person to find a solution that works for both of you? I think very often it is. Sometimes the other person's behavior is simply not okay for you. And even if they want to keep telling you how good you look with your weight loss, and it's like, I understand that that's important to you, but that behavior is so harmful for me that I'm going

to need you to compliment me a different way. I'll give the example of the mother's and the in-laws who drop by without calling. That's very common. They just feel like they can come in at any time. Maybe it's a conversation you have with your spouse where he's like, I don't mind if they just drop by. They're really easy. I like visiting with them. And I'm like, that's really disruptive to my day. So guess what? They can come by without calling. But if I'm busy, I don't have to entertain them. They're on you. And if you're not home, then I might not answer the door if I don't have capacity. Maybe that's the compromise you need to have. I definitely think conversations are really important,

expectation setting and shared expectations and compromises where you can make the relationship better. But you have to remember that the boundary is always about what you are willing to do to keep yourself safe and healthy. And sometimes that requires the change to the relationship. I was going to ask what you do in a situation where it involves you and another person setting the boundary, but you disagree on the boundary that needs to be set. Are there other, like, examples? you can speak to. I mean, it happens very often in romantic partnerships around family, especially, where your spouse or romantic partners, like, well, that's just how they are. They're not going to

change. And you're kind of the new person coming into the relationship saying like, no, no, no, that is how they have conditioned you to do what they want. You always have to be on the same page if you're trying to set a boundary as a couple or as a family. It's not going to work if one of you agrees and one of you doesn't. So how do you get there? So sometimes there's a compromise to be had, like the one I just shared with the mother-in-law, I have this number system that I've been using for a really long time. So you and I disagree on whether the parents can drop over. So you say to me, how important is it to you that they call before they come over? And I think about it. And in my integrity, I say, I've got to tell you, it's an eight. I find it so incredibly disruptive when they just pop in and expect us to drop

everything. Now I would say to you, how important is it to you that your mom be able to come over whenever she wants and you'd go, oh, it's like a four. I kind of don't care either way. Well, now all of a sudden we have a rubric for, this is really important to me and not as important to you. Mom's got a call before she comes over. So I think that's another really effective way. And if they're both eights? If they're both eights, maybe you talk to a therapist. I say the word therapy a lot in this book, because there are some issues that a boundary isn't going to solve. Yeah. And that could be one of them, you know, if it's equally important to both of you. But if it is, then it's like, oh, okay, well, Why is it an eight to you? Why is it an eight to me? Well, what if we just have her call and give us at least

10 minutes notice? Would that work? Yeah, I think that would be reasonable. Ten minutes is good. That gives me a moment to regroup. I think there are things that you can do to approach it as a team. What about a boundary where the consequence feels like losing a relationship? I'm thinking about all the people who are like, I can't afford to spend this much money on a wedding or a bachelorette or a birthday trip, but this relationship is so important to me and I don't want to demonstrate that it's not. the kind of basic tenant of my boundary practice comes from Brinney Brown. She wrote the phrase clear is kind in her book Dare to Lead. And she was talking about it in a corporate setting, but gave me permission to adopt it to a boundary setting. In this situation, if my friend is

getting married and wants me to be a bridesmaid and there's an expensive gown and a trip for the bachelorette and a trip for the shower and I legitimately don't have the time, energy, or capacity, the kindest thing you can do is talk about that clearly well ahead of time. I would love to be your bridesmaid. It means so much to me that you asked. And also, I want you to have the wedding that you want. I want you to have it exactly the way you want it. So here is what I can do, given my financial limitations or time limitations or energetic capacity because I have a chronic illness, whatever. Here's what I can do. I want you to think about it and let me know, would you still like me as your bridesmaid in that capacity or would you rather have someone else

serve. And regardless of your answer, I'm going to be perfectly happy. Now we have this wonderful relationship where we're communicating openly and honestly. We're able to show up exactly as we are able. And whatever decision you come to is a good one. Okay. I'm going to be the bride for a second. But I know you take an Uber every single week or I've seen you out at the bar doing a $100 tab. You can't just save a little bit better so you can come to my bachelor's party. I know. I know it's challenging to understand or try to observe people's behavior and kind of see under the hood of what's happening. But I am telling you in my integrity, this is not an expense that I can commit to at this time. And maybe I'll share more, right?

Just me behind the scenes. Maybe I'll tell you about a medical bill or a credit card bill I'm trying to pay off or the fact that I know that my income is going down because I'm not getting as many clients. Maybe I won't because maybe it's not your business. But the point is I need you to understand. It is not personal. but I am telling you that I will not be able to show up for you the way that you deserve. And I want you to tell me either, that's okay, it's more important to have you in the wedding and I can give up those other things or it's really important for me to have the wedding that I want

and I'm going to ask this other person and I will handle that so gracefully. And I will be so grateful to you because we were able to have that conversation. This is a little weird, but what if the why is actually a little hurtful? So you're like, I actually don't like you more than I like my Uber's. I don't have a good reason for this, but it's not something that I really want to do. If you just don't want to be in the wedding because you don't like the person enough, I think it's perfectly acceptable to say, I am honored that you would think of me and I really appreciate it, but I'm not going to be able to be a bridesmaid.

And that's it. And if they say why, you can just say, again, I don't think I'll be able to show up for you the way that you deserve. Or I don't have capacity to, I wouldn't. I don't like you enough to be your bridesmaid. Doesn't feel very kind. We have this tendency to say something like, you should have someone closer to you. We want to convince them. We do, except that now that becomes not about me. That becomes me telling you what you should want.

And then you can go, but I don't want them. I want you. So you really have to keep it about yourself. This is not a season in which I can commit to that. On the flip side, can you share some ways that we can show up better to support our friends' boundaries? Yeah, so the good thing about a boundary practice is that once you become more comfortable holding and setting them yourself, you also become more comfortable recognizing and receiving gracefully someone else's boundaries. And you never really know when someone sets a limit with you, whether it's coming from a really healthy place,

or whether it's a controlling or manipulative tactic, because it can sound exactly the same. But that's not your business or your responsibility. And I like to give my friends the benefit of the doubt. Can you explain kind of what you mean by that? Yes. What might be the meaning behind it? We are very much in a couple in this podcast right now. You come home from work and you say, I had the worst day.

I just need to vent. And I say, can I please have an hour before you? you start to vent, right? That could be coming from a healthy place of, I also had an overwhelming day and I am not going to be able to show up and be supportive for you unless I get just a hot second of downtime. I'm going to go take a shower. When I come back, I will come back, energetically prepared to hold this for you. Or it could be, why is Liz always talking about herself and never asks me about my day? No, I can't talk right now. I need an hour. It sounds exactly the same. And you kind of don't know where it's coming from, but I like to give people

the benefit of the doubt. I like to assume that what they are setting is a healthy boundary. I like to respect it, right? So if I say I need an hour, you would say, absolutely, I understand. I really need to talk to someone right now. So I'm going to call my sister. You take your hour. I am now taking care of my own needs. I'm responsible for my own needs. You go take your shower. In an hour, let's come back together. And I'll ask you again, if you can hear me talk about my day. And hopefully I won't be quite so amped up about it. If you start to observe a pattern of behavior where every time you set a boundary, they set a boundary in response or they're never accessible to have you talk about your feelings, they always need time or have no energetic capacity, that's where I would

start to pay attention and say, like, is this really a healthy boundary or is this just a dysfunctional communication pattern? Are we always fully responsible for our own needs? or is part of the expectation of relationships that people are going to be there for us, even when they don't want to? Like, I have really extreme anxiety. And Zach, my partner, often ends up showing up for me. I think even when he doesn't have capacity, when he's tired, when he's burnt out because he loves me and he wants to take care of my anxiety. Or I have friends where they've been going through a hard time for a really, really, really long time. And I often don't know if I can kind of keep showing up in that way.

Or it wouldn't be my choice. Like, it wouldn't be my preference. But I'm like, is that part of what being a good friend is? Is that part of what being a partner is? To some degree, yes. And also, if Zach's own energetic capacity and mental health were suffering because of the way he was constantly showing up for you, that's not a healthy dynamic either. So again, it kind of goes to the context, which is if you're in the middle of a serious anxiety, I'm going to drop whatever. whatever I'm going to do and I'm going to be there for you. But if I'm your only person,

if you don't seek any other form of support, if you don't have any self-care practices to help you manage your anxiety, if you are not actively pursuing some form of, you know, treatment for your anxiety, whether that looks like meditation or therapy or self, whatever that looks like. If I'm the only thing you know how to do to manage that, that's going to be very quickly depleting and overwhelming. And that's a scenario where I feel like, okay, now I'm going to set a boundary because I can't be that for you all the time. And is it our place in that scenario as the friend, as the partner to say, I don't feel like you're taking care of yourself? Like, have you tried therapy? Have you tried this? Have you tried that? Or are those suggestions

a boundary issue unto themselves? I know. It kind of depends, right? So if the person is constantly dumping, never ever asking for advice, just expecting you to like hold their stuff and carry it around, that's kind of a situation where I would absolutely set a boundary. Like, hey, I've been listening to you talk about this, but it's really hard for me just to absorb it and not see any changes and not see you doing anything about it. Would you like some advice? Would you like me to help you find someone else to talk to? I heard Lori Gottlieb say, I wish I could be your therapist, but I can only be your friend.

And I'm like, that's so genius. I love that. A lot of times in these situations, they are talking and they are open to advice and you're giving advice. And then if they're just not doing it, if you've had the same conversation three times and, you know, you're like, have you tried this? Have you tried that? Have you tried that?

And they were like, oh, that's a good idea. I will try that. And then they just don't. Then the conversation can be, wait, wait, we just talked about this last week. Have you tried A, B, or C that we talked about? No. I think you should try those. And why don't you touch base with me after you do?

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in that way, which is interesting. It is. It's hard. One of the things that I really appreciate about my husband is that when we got together the first time, because we were together for six months and then he broke up with me. And then we got back together after we had done some personal growth. But the first time we were together, I felt like he was really struggling to take responsibility for his own feelings. And the only thing he could do was like talk to me about them. And when we got back together the second time, the cool thing was that he would talk to me. And then in that conversation or after, I would hear him say, okay, now I'm going to talk to my mom. I'm going to call my therapist. I'm going to go journal. I'm going to go shoot some video. And I was

like, oh, this is good. So I am a person for you, but I'm not the only thing. And I think that's really important in every relationship. Where did you learn those tools? I mean, through therapy, through us talking about it, I also like to model taking responsibility for my feelings. So when I am struggling with like a mental health issue, I'll talk to him and then say, and also I've gotten an appointment with my therapist already. And I'm reading this book already. And I'm going to go for a hike tomorrow by myself. And I know that's going to make me feel better. I love the idea of vocalizing what you're doing and why you're doing it. Because I think that a lot of people listening are like, oh, I wish my partner would take that responsibility for their mental health

in the same way that you're saying. And I love the idea of being like, not just I'm going to go for a walk, but I'm going to go for a walk so I can have some peace and think and take care of myself. Like I didn't realize how much my husband was using photography and videography for his mental health until he actually explained it to me. He'd say like, oh, I'm going to go out and shoot. And I'm like, okay, hobby, interest, whatever. But he was like, no, no, no, no, I can get outside of my own brain and interact with the natural world through my lens. Like he actually described it to me. And now it's like, oh, okay, all right, that's different.

That's so interesting. I wonder if you could even ask your partner, what is the function, what is the role of this? Because you can be so much more supportive. Obviously, we want to support hobbies. But if something is crucial for your mental health and you're not even aware of that because they've never expressed that, then you can't support it in that way. Yes.

I mean, when he first moved in with me, one of the conversations we had right off the bat is there will be times where I will say to you, I'm going to go in our room and close the door and read the book for an hour. It is not about you. I am not mad at you. It will never be about you because if it was about you, you would know because I would tell you. It is because the only way I can recharge is if I am by myself and when I feel energetically overloaded, sometimes it's like an instant thing. It's like a light switch and I'm done and I need to go do that.

And so we just set that expectation so that when I do that now, he knows why. He knows it's healthy and not unhealthy. I'm not running away. I'm not hiding. I'm not punishing him. And that's really important. Are you an introvert? wicked introvert. I need a lone time like most people need to breathe. Which is so interesting with your

whole career progression. What do you do to recharge when you're doing like all of this outward facing activities? I get into bed in my hotel and all my clothes and I just chill for a minute, which I'm sure is like creeping some people out. But I mean, alone time, quiet time, downtime. I read a lot. I hike a ton of outside a lot. I really love things like this. Like I'm getting so much energy from this. And as soon as we're done, I'm going to deflate. My favorite thing in the world and then afterwards I'm just like in a little ball. Actually, I'm high for like a second afterwards and I'll like walk out and be like, woo. I want to like go out and party and then 15 minutes later I'll be like, no, no, I'm actually ready for back.

So you're a toddler after sugar. Yeah. Like that's the same way. Yeah. The other part of the book that I loved was the idea of setting boundaries with yourself. Yeah. Can you talk to me about that a little bit? Yeah.

I think people often think about boundaries in terms of setting them with other people and other relationships. And we've talked about that a lot. but you can and should set boundaries with yourself to protect your own health and wellness and mental health and time and energy. And the good news about setting boundaries with yourself is that you're the only person responsible for holding them. You don't have to rely on anyone else to agree or cooperate. But the bad thing about it is that who's going to know if you break your own boundary? It can feel like there are no consequences if you set a boundary with yourself. I set a boundary not too long ago that I wasn't going to look at social media in the hour before

bed because I had become accustomed to scrolling through Twitter one last time just to check the news and there was a lot happening in the news and it was never good. And when you really think about it, if I did pick up the phone right before bed, no one's going to smack it out of my hand. Like nobody's going to come in. But there are some really serious consequences if I don't hold that boundary. So I talk about and frame self boundaries in terms of what are the consequences to future you if you don't hold this boundary. And the consequences are that I'm going to, I'm going to to be super fired up right before bed. I'm going to have a harder time falling asleep. I'm not going to sleep well. I'm probably going to oversleep. I might wake up late. I might not get to my workout

the next morning. I'm going to be in a bad mood the next morning. There's a big spillover effect. But if I just put the phone down, all of a sudden I have so much freedom to have my end of the night look exactly like I wanted to look. I can read a book. I can listen to a meditation. I can doze off peacefully without worrying about what people are arguing about on Twitter. So I think when you frame it like that, it can become a lot easier to see the benefits and the consequences of not holding self-boundaries. But often self-boundaries are the first step in establishing a new healthy habit. I can picture, I have the same scrolling before bed issue. I can picture future me. She's so happy. But right now, me just literally doesn't have the willpower to set the phone down.

So Whole 30 land is very black or white on or off. It's an elimination program. It's like all or none for 30 days. And habit research actually shows that that black and white sort of language is easier for the brain to understand than moderation or some. So my strategy is what is like the shortest and sweetest thing that you could do to protect yourself, to protect future you from current you who just wants the instant gratification? If the phone's not in your bedroom charging, you can't just pick it up and look at it. That's the one thing I've gotten to work for me. So it's like if I can have that willpower moment when I'm heading to the bedroom to plug it in, then I'm good. often I can talk myself out of that too. Okay, then don't even keep a charger in your bedroom. It's not even in there because you're going to get into your bedroom. You're going to go out.

You're going to have to get the charger from where you know you should plug it in. And very often, just that little pause is enough to go, oh, it's out here for a reason. There are so many interesting studies with like rats and talking about the ease of rewarding things. And it's very, very proven. The easier of rewarding behavior is, the more you're going to do it. And the more difficult you make it, the less you're going to do it. So make it really hard. So you don't think it's about increasing your willpower necessarily, but rather just making the situation as conducive to the outcome you want as possible? I mean, increasing your willpower is great. And I don't think it's about increasing it as much as it is reducing willpower demand

throughout the day. Oh, tell me about that. Well, every act from the moment we wake up requires willpower, not hitting snooze, willpower. Not skipping flossing in the morning requires willpower. sometimes just figuring out that, yes, I am going to exercise this morning, becomes willpower-induced. And so no wonder by the end of the night, we are like prowling through the pantry, scrolling on Twitter because we've got nothing left. And technology habit research shows is one of the fastest drainers of willpower, right? That dopamine hit is so fast and so instantaneous. So if we can remove some of those choices or willpower issues in the morning, laying out all your gym clothes in the morning,

so you don't have to make the decision, and then get to the end of the day, or, maybe the middle of the day when you're feeling like your willpower is strong and taking preventative action, it's like just an act of kindness, right? You know that you're going to be really tired at the end of the day. So you're going to do a little something now to make the end of the day a little bit easier for you. I love the idea of like taking a day to identify your willpower dreams throughout the day, really kind of trying to be aware of it throughout the day, maybe even writing it down being like, oh, this took me a second to like push myself to do and maybe looking for places you can get rid of those drains throughout the day. Anything that you can automate is fantastic,

right? Anything that you can avoid that willpower drain. So, you know, on the whole 30, we talk about, like, if it's not in the house, you're not going to eat it because you're not going to get in your car in the middle of the night and drive to the whatever. That pause is as much as you need. I think my mom used to, like, freeze her credit card, right, in the freezer. And like a block of ice. Yeah. This is like back in the day. So I think that could be really, really helpful, too. If there are parts of the day where you feel like are especially willpower draining, and listen, boundaries can help you with that, right? If you know that you've got this coworker and you've got a morning meeting with them every

Monday and it's just exhausting, can you set a boundary so that you don't have to use willpower not to like snap at this person in the middle of your meeting? So a boundary for that would look like, can we have the meeting a different time? It might be, can we have the meeting a different time? It might be, hey, I noticed that when we're in meetings, you take credit for my ideas, lot. And I got to tell you, it doesn't feel very good. Can we talk about how we can collaborate better? Or I notice when we're in meetings, you interrupt me a lot. Next time that happens, I'm going to remind you that I was still talking and I'll let you know when you can jump in.

Who knows why you're having this issue? But if you could just set a boundary to know that that meeting would go smoother, now you don't have to use willpower to get yourself into it, hold your tongue through the whole meaning and not see coming out of it. Okay. So is this going to be like a muscle where the more you work at, the easier it's going to get because you're going to get stronger. And like maybe a positive reward cycle. You're going to start to reap the benefits. Because even you saying that, I'm like, ooh, could I do that? But like, you're just like, do it once, do it again, do it again, do it the easy people first. You promise that that that won't sound scary. It's inertia, right? It is an object in motion, stays in motion. And I think even more

important than that is just this idea that as women, we have been told for such a long time that our needs don't matter. And like, even that word needy has such a connotation to it, doesn't it? And I think every time you set a boundary, it's just a reminder that you have needs, your needs matter, you can trust yourself, which is so important. And it just like reaffirms that you are worth sticking up for. So I do think that it makes you stronger and it makes you realize that these boundaries can be incredibly effective if you're, you know, willing to be. to brave a little bit of discomfort. If somebody was like, I would love to set some more self boundaries, could you give us some more examples, like a little poo-poo platter to choose from?

Yeah, I have examples in the book where I talk about a messy room. So here's how you know you need to set a self-boundary. What area of your life or like time in your day is the most stressful? And I will hear people say, every time I walk into my kids' playroom, it is red flags everywhere because it's absolutely a mess. And then it's like, okay, what kind of boundary can you set with yourself around keeping that room tidier. Maybe not your kids' playroom because maybe they're responsible for their own toys. But what can I set with myself? My whole house is a mess. Sure. You can use that. Or what one room could I keep tidy? And that one room would have a huge impact on my mental health. For me, it's the kitchen. If my kitchen is clean, doesn't matter what

the rest of the house looks like. I feel like I have my stuff together. So then it's like, okay, well, what boundaries can I set? Well, maybe it's every single night. I set a timer and I spend 10 minutes tidying one area. And that's all I commit to doing, but it's 10 minutes every single night. Or maybe it's I only watch Netflix shows if I'm tidying. Do you know Katie Milkman? No. She does the science behavioral change. And one of her favorite strategies is tying a hard task with a favorite task. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's brilliant. So you can do it around cleanliness around the house. I talk a lot about exercise and creating a morning routine. So one of the boundaries that I recommend everybody set with themselves is that you don't look at your phone in the morning until you're done

with your morning routine. And that routine might be five minutes or it might be an hour, whatever serves you. But until then, you do not pick up your phone. You're not on email. You're not on Slack. You're not on social media. It's a huge game changer for feeling like you're starting the day proactive instead of reactive. So I check my aura first thing when I wake up, which probably isn't great. But I use my aura to be like, should I go back to sleep for another hour or two? But then once I'm on my phone, you know. Yeah, it happens. It's a harder thing than one would think. What do you have in your morning routine? Like, what are your non-negotiables? I mean, the whole thing is pretty non-negotiable. And I've been doing it for a really long time. But I do kind of mix and match

pieces. Cold shower. That's like the first thing I do in the morning. And I'm not doing it every day anymore, but like pretty regularly. And then I immediately work out. So some kind of movement. You're cold shower first. Wow. So you can roll out of bed and just stick yourself in a cold shower. Yeah. You're good. It's been profoundly transformational in terms of like my energy, my mood. It's been amazing. And it's like the best wake. Oh, I'm sure. It's like having somebody dump ice on your face to get you out of bed. Basically, yes. And now I really love them. And then I do some kind of movement. So maybe it's a walk. Maybe it's a gym session. Maybe it's a yoga class. Maybe it's a hike. It might be 15 minutes

in my garage. It might be like an hour and a half if I have the time. I do a little post-workout meditation every single time that I work out. And then I make my like breakfast and then my day starts. What's for breakfast usually? I've been really into the creatures of habit is a high protein oatmeal. It's vegan. It's plant-based. It uses 100%. plant-based protein powder, but it's delicious. And it's like a complete meal in a pouch. I can get it done in three minutes flat. And I like the overnight oats method. So I'll do it the night before. Get done. It's super filling. My gut loves it. It's so good for my digestion. And then I'm hungry again for like a breakfast email. But that's kind of my first meal in the day lately.

I love that. The other thing I really like that you mentioned in the book was supporting people who maybe systems are more stacked against in enforcing their own boundaries. Can you speak to that? Oh, yeah. The author's note opens with an acknowledgement of all of my privilege, because I'm just about as privileged as you can be without being a man, you know, white, straight, able-bodied, cisgender, with thin privilege. So when I set a boundary, because of my proximity to whiteness and maleness, I can generally expect that my boundary will be at least somewhat respected. And if you are a woman of color or LGBTQ or trans or disabled, you don't have that same lived experience. So I do acknowledge that I cannot reflect or represent everyone's lived experience in the book. But I talk a lot

about how to be a good ally or really bystander, an active bystander if you are supporting someone else setting a boundary, whether it's in the workplace or out in the wild, or how to interstate. Or how to intervene even. There's a wonderful organization called right to be.org, and they host these bystander intervention trainings online. And so I did a bystander intervention training in the workplace, which is like, what do you do and how do you act if you see someone being harassed or maligned in the workplace? And that was a really fantastic experience. What are a few takeaways from that? So the first thing is you really want to focus on the person who is being harmed and not the person who is doing the harming, whether it's a stranger or someone you know, if you can,

can distract, that often breaks the momentum. So, you know, they make suggestions like dropping your water bottle near them or saying like, hey, can you help me with directions or, hey, Jen, I needed to talk to you about that report and just kind of pulling them out of that situation. So that's one of the strategies. And they have this sort of whole like five point. But that essentially ends with if you feel like you can intervene in an effective way and you feel safe and the person feels safe enough because sometimes our intervention can actually do more harm than good. So that's sort of the last strategy, but they offer a bunch of different ways that you can intervene in a way that's healthy and helpful for both parties.

When I think that's the fear sometimes is that in supporting somebody else in their boundary that you are not understanding something, you're making the situation worse. So I think it can be a tricky situation to navigate. You gave an example in the book, I think, where it's just kind of repeating. Like if somebody said something in a meeting, you can be like, oh, they said this. Did you hear them say this? Yeah. Little things like that.

Yeah. I mean, there are a ton of microaggressions, especially. in the workplace. So it's when Susie says one thing and then Jim says it and everybody thinks that, you know, Jim just said something fantastic. You can say, yeah, that's essentially what Susie was saying. Susie, do you want to continue with that idea? Or, I mean, when I worked in the insurance industry, I overheard so many just blatantly sexist comments. And it was hard for me to know what to say because these were often people who were my superiors. They were vice presidents and I was just an administrative assistant. But now my response is just something like, you can't say that. I actually used to

say that to my boss all the time. I'd be like, you can't say that, right? I know you came from a different time. I know that maybe in your office culture that was acceptable. You can't say that now. And how did he he responded very well? Really? He responded very, very well. But sometimes you want to call it out in the moment to let other people know, like, this is not acceptable behavior. But you also have to do it in a way that doesn't make them double down. So I do offer some strategies in the book for sort of calling it out in the moment and then maybe revisiting it. Or if you're too stunned in the moment to call it out, that it's too late to go back and say, hey, that joke you made about climbing the corporate ladder, that was not cool. You have a lot of women reporting to you that came off as really sexist.

Next time that happens, I will not be quiet. Is there a way to deal with how exhausting it can be to just go around upholding all these boundaries all the time? Do I find it exhausting? No, I don't find it exhausting because the alternative is exhausting. If we're talking about comparison, me saying no to a whole. work project and maybe even having to say no three times because they're being like really persistent is nowhere near as exhausting as me saying yes and then running myself into the ground to

try to get it done. So it's actually not that exhausting. It is in preservation of my energy and my time. Doing the math that like the alternative is worse. It is. Are there any boundaries that you're struggling to uphold in your life right now? Work is always tough because sometimes I'm like I definitely don't have the capacity for it, but it sounds so cool. I really want to do it or I really want to go. Or on a trip like this where I'm in LA for the entire week and I have friends in town, it can be hard to not get together with people that I really want to get together with, but I know energetically or because of my concussion that like it would really dig me into the ground. So I think that's always a bit of a struggle. And I definitely don't always get it right.

Sometimes I say yes to things and go, okay, I should not have said yes to that. I said yes to a book tour event and then, I mean, stressed about it for weeks, for weeks. I was like, I shouldn't have said yes. I don't know why I said yes to this. I don't have capacity for it. And finally, my sister was like, tell them you can't do it. And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right. So even I need help from time to time. Well, that's such an interesting point too, though, is that even after you've made the choice, if you feel like it's the wrong choice, and sometimes it takes making the choice to even know, to get in touch with your gut enough to be, like, oh, that was the wrong choice, but you can go back. I've had that experience so many times

where I've been building something up in my head for months. And then I'm like, oh, wait, just because I said yes, doesn't mean I absolutely have to do this. Yeah, I mean, it's tricky. There are some points where I'm like, you made this commitment and now it's too late. And if I canceled on you 10 minutes before I walked in the door, podcast guests have done it. I'm sure they have. I'm not happy unless it's an emergency. I'm not going to do that. So there is some point where I'm like, you got to take responsibility it. Like, this is the bed that you made and you are going to lie in. And it's situation specific, but I do think sometimes we feel locked in and trapped, even right after the yes.

Like sometimes I think we can be like, oh, that's the moment of clarity I actually needed. And maybe a more sophisticated person would play out the scenario in their head prior and be like, oh, this is what a yes would feel like. This is what a no would feel like perhaps I should go with a no. Yeah. And sometimes you just don't know. And sometimes you have to learn the hard way. But I have absolutely been like, yeah, I would love to.

And then two seconds later have been like, actually, wait a minute. it, I would love to, but when I really think about it, I don't have capacity or I'll offer some sort of compromise, you know? Is there anything else that you feel like people get wrong when they're trying to set their boundaries that we could kind of clarify around right now? I think a common misconception is that boundaries are about telling other people what to do. And I get why that's a misconception because very often the first step in you setting a boundary is you sharing a request. And it's not the same as telling someone else what to do, although it can kind of sound like it. So if you smoke and I don't want you to smoke in my house and you come into my house, I would say,

please don't smoke. Or maybe I don't allow smoking in my house. And it's not because I am trying to get you to not smoke. It's because I don't allow smoking in my house because it doesn't feel good or it doesn't smell good. But I think people mistake the idea of a request for, but you're telling me what to do. And all the request is is saying, I have this healthy limit. You probably didn't know it because I've never communicated it. I'm going to communicate it now.

Are you willing? And if you say yes, we're all good. If you are not willing, the boundary itself is me saying, okay, this is the action I am going to take to keep myself safe and healthy, which is to say if you refuse to put your cigarette out in my house, I will never invite you over again. That's the action I am going to take. So I think wrapping your head around that can really help people understand that they're not about telling other people what to do. They're really coming from the self, which is very empowering. And on the flip side, would that be like a check we could do for ourselves? If we are indeed telling somebody what to do, would that be a sign?

Like, that's not actually setting a healthy boundary. That's trying to control somebody else's actions and behavior. Yeah. I mean, it can kind of sound the same depending on the motivation for where it's coming from. So please don't smoke might be like, I think smoking is gross and you shouldn't smoke for your health. Or it could be, I don't want to be around cigarette smoke. So I think walking through the process in your own mind and honestly, the key is asking yourself, is this boundary going to make my relationship with this person better?

Not are they going to be happier? Are they going to be more comfortable? But will I feel better in the relationship if they're able to meet this limit? If the answer is no or it doesn't matter, then maybe you're being controlling and manipulative. But if there's a legitimate reason, like yes, if they would just, call before they came over, here are all of the ways in which our relationship would improve, then that's a pretty solid sign. We love to end on one homework assignment, something that listeners can, like, turn the

podcast off and go start doing immediately in the name of setting better boundaries in this case. So can you give us one homework assignment? I'm going to say for the next maybe week, call it, you are not going to automatically say yes to anything. You are going to pause your acceptance of anything and everything. You decide how long to pause it for. But I want you to just practice the idea of checking in with yourself first.

I don't want you to reply based on what you think the other person wants to hear. I want you to reply based on what do I want and need. Maybe that want and need is it would feel really good to make this person happy. And that would be restorative and feel my cool. But I don't want you to do something just because you want me to, even if I don't want to. So take that pause before you say yes or no. I love it. I'm going to do it.

I'm going to talk all about your beautiful book at the beginning of the episode, but I would love to hear from you and your own words about everything in it. I think I'm just the most excited at hearing stories from people who have implemented my advice and said, you know, it's such a small thing. But I said no to that coworker who's always asking me to meet when she knows that I leave the office at 5 o'clock on Thursdays. And she's always asking me to meet at 430. And I finally said, please don't schedule meetings past 4 p.m. And it was like a light bulb went off. It was such a small thing, but it wasn't small. So I love hearing those stories. And I think people are going to find so many small, instantaneous, but like hugely impactful wins in this book. I love it.

Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I absolutely love this. Me too. Thanks, Liz. I absolutely loved this episode. I'm walking away feeling so inspired to figure out what boundaries I needed my life and then actually enforce them. Life is too short to walk around feeling horrible because we want to people please all the time, you know. I'm also definitely sending it to a few friends who I want to have boundary discussions with like, hey, fun podcast. I think you would like, you know, very casual. Also, is it just me or would this be a great one to put on a work Slack channel? like, oh yeah, just listen to this podcast.

Thank you all would love. Now, stop sending me emails at midnight, eh? Okay, before we wrap up, if you haven't already, go join the Healthier Together podcast club, Facebook group. The conversations keep getting better, and it's quickly becoming one of my favorite places on the internet. It is so supportive and so information-packed. I will link the group in the show notes, or you can just search Healthier Together podcast

club on Facebook. You can also join the in-person clubs, which are now fully underway. So if you signed up, keep your eye out for an email soon. If you're new here, make sure that your subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. We have amazing ones coming up, including an episode all about finding hope when things feel hopeless, one on figuring out your life's purpose and an Ask the Doctor, Blood Sugar Edition, which is highly requested. So subscribe, subscribe, so you do not miss out on anything. Okay, I love you, and I will see you next week on the next episode of the Healthyer Together podcast. I'm genuinely confused how masterclass gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes.

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