The Liz Moody Podcast - Tara Schuster—Practical Advice For Making Friends As An Adult, Career Success, Overcoming Depression and Anxiety & Forgiving Your Childhood

Episode Date: May 27, 2020

This episode features Tara Schuster, an author, playwright, and accomplished entertainment executive. She served as Vice President of Talent and Development at Comedy Central where she was the Executive in Charge of ​Lights Out with David Spade,​ was the Executive in Charge of the Emmy® and Peabody Award-winning ​Key & Peele​, the Emmy® Award winning ​@Midnight​, and numerous other shows. She’s also the author of the amazing book, ​Buy Yourself the F*cking Lilies: and Other Rituals to Fix Your Life from Someone Who has Been There, which was our very first #LMbookclub pick. In this episode, we talk about: The self care practices she’s relying on to get through this pandemic Her 3-step plan for climbing out of bouts of depression or anxiety How she learned to love herself and when exactly it happened Her technique to deal with jealousy and envy The trick she uses to love her looks Her career progression, including exactly how she became a top exec at Comedy Central How she knew it was time to make the leap to work for herself How she developed a good relationship with money after having a crazy childhood Her advice to anyone looking to become a solo entrepreneur Her advice to anyone looking to climb a career ladder How she created her tribe of amazing female friends as an adult, including the brilliant trick she uses to uplevel the quality of women in her life How she got her book deal, and the exact path she used to start placing pieces in publications like the New Yorker How she overcame having parents who didn’t support her dreams—and the revelation she had about why they acted the way they did as a kid The realization that helped her finally forgive her parents for her childhood How she approaches dating and the fear of not meeting a dream partner You can find Tara on Instagram @taraschuster, and I’m of course @lizmoody. Screenshot and tag us both with your thoughts, feelings, and reactions to this episode! Enjoy! PS: Healthier Together is officially a number one best-seller! You can get your copy on Amazon or at lizmoody.com/cookbook. Please keep sending me your creations on Instagram—they make me so happy! This episode is sponsored by GoMacro. For all of May, GoMacro is going above and beyond and donating 10% of their net-proceeds from their Peanut Butter MacroBar to Farm Sanctuary. As one of the nation’s largest animal sanctuaries, Farm Sanctuary has rescued thousands of animals and has cared for them at its sanctuaries in New York and California. You can get a whopping 30% off your order PLUS free shipping by using the code “healthiertogether30” at GoMacro.com. I highly recommend you try the peanut butter, the double chocolate peanut butter chip, and the oatmeal chocolate chip cookie! This week is also sponsored by SOUND. SOUND combines sparkling water with certified organic tea, botanicals and fruit extracts. They don’t use any sweeteners, so they’re both sugar and artificial sugar free, but they still somehow taste amazing. My very favorite one is Chamomile with Vanilla and Elderflower, which tastes just like cream soda, and Zack loves the Green Tea with Grapefruit and Mint and the Blood Orange and Vanilla with Black Tea. They’re one of my favorite soda alternatives, and they’re also an awesome base for mocktails or cocktails. You can get 20% off at drinksound.com by using the code LIZ. Enjoy! Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthy Together podcast. If you're new here, I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I am a longtime journalist and cookbook author living in Brooklyn, New York, and this podcast is all about living your healthiest and happiest life. I love interviewing extraordinary people and finding out what's worked for them on their wellness journeys, on their life journeys, and today's guest has so many amazing takeaways. Tara Schuster is the author of the best-selling book, Buy Yourself The Effing Lillies, which was actually my very first pick. for my Instagram book club, which you can find out more details about over on my feed. You should definitely come join.

We're reading Stray by Stephanie Danler right now, and it is so good. She is also the former vice president of talent and development at Comedy Central. We actually talk a lot in this episode about how she climbed the corporate ladder and found such amazing success in her career. And then also, she recently left that career. So we talk about how she knew it was time to make the transition to become a solo entrepreneur and how she's handling that change. Tara is the absolute master of self-love and self-care,

but in a completely non-cheasy, modern, accessible way, and in this episode we cover so much. We talk about the three-step plan that she relies on for climbing out of bouts of depression or anxiety, how she learned to embrace her depression, how she learned to love herself, and when exactly it happened, and how it happened, her genius technique to deal with jealousy and envy, her relationship with money. Her whole money story

is actually really interesting. She grew up going back and forth between being wealthy and things like having her home repossessed. And so she's had to completely rewrite her money story herself. So we talk a lot about that. We talk about how she overcame a lot of elements of her childhood in general, including how she overcame having parents who didn't support her dreams and the process that she went through to forgive her parents for her childhood, which was really poignant and interesting. And I definitely learned a lot from that part. We also talk about super pragmatic stuff. You know I love my like pragmatic actionable stuff, including one of the best explanations about how to get a book deal that I have ever heard and some genius career advice for winning in a

corporate environment because again, Tara has both of those sides. And then we talk about friendships. Tara has created an incredible tribe of female friend. She talks about them a ton in her book. And she gave such actionable tips for anybody looking to do the same. I think honestly that that's the thing that I love so much about Tara and about this episode. She's definitely a doer. So she's not like, oh, love yourself or oh, forgive your parents or oh, become super successful or embrace her anxiety or embrace being single or whatever. She's like, here is an exact plan for how to do it that literally anyone can follow. So if you're looking to enhance yourself love, your mental health, your relationships, your career, your friendships, this episode is definitely for you. She's also just

like really likable and cool. And I think that makes this episode feel like you're going out to a fun dinner with like an amazing older sister or a really impressive and kind mentor. You can find Tara's book wherever books are sold. And as always, we would both love to hear from you as you listen to this episode. I think you're going to be. to have a ton of takeaways for this one, and I cannot wait to hear them. So screenshot them, write your thoughts, and then tag me. I'm at Liz Moody and tag Tara. She's at Tara Schuster. Schuster is spelled, it's T-A-R-A, and then Schuster is S-C-H-U-S-T-E-R as you listen. I'm already working on personally the reframing of jealousy thing that Tara talks about, and it's really,

really helping me. So I cannot wait to hear what resonates with you. As always, if you love the episode, I would so appreciate a quick rating and review on iTunes. We are so close to a thousand reviews, which feels like a huge milestone. And it really just takes a minute and has a great free way to support creators. I also personally love reading the reviews so much. They make me just really love this little family that we've built here. So if you would like to leave one, I would massively appreciate it. All right, that is enough for me. Let's get into this episode with the amazing Tara Schuster. All right, Tara, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Liz.

So we are recording this in the middle of sort of our stay-at-home orders in COVID. So I want to just sort of acknowledge that at the beginning. I don't want this to be a COVID-centric podcast, but I would like to know how you're doing because you've developed sort of all these self-care practices to help you deal when life is more or less okay. So how are those translating right now? Yeah, it's so funny that you ask that because I feel like I spent my whole, like zero to 25 training for crisis, knowing how to deal with a crisis, expecting a crisis around the corner. So for me, I feel like I was oddly prepared because I, like in the back

of my head, I always thought disaster was impending. That too. Like I, it almost, there was like a few weeks at the beginning where I was like almost weirdly calmer because I was like, oh, there's like a real thing to and everybody else was panicked all the sudden. And I was like, this is where I always am. And it felt nice to have everybody on my left. Yeah, I know. It's, it's been interesting in that way where I'm like, oh, right, the thing I'm good at, like navigating a crisis. But the interesting thing is like so many of my self-care rituals really are not dependent on like money or going out and doing something. A bath is not dependent on anything other than you having hot water, which actually I don't even have hot water. I do not have hot water today, so I cannot do that. My building manager assures me that it's coming

back very soon. We've taken too much for me. But even, you know, the title of the book, like, buy yourself the fucking lilies. Like, that is still available to me in a pandemic. Like, I still go to Trader Joe's. Guess what? They still have Lily. they're still affordable at $7 and make my life better. So I've kept up that. A huge one that I write about in the book that that's even more important in a pandemic is spritzing the sink, like cleaning my bathroom sink every night. I've now extended that to cleaning my kitchen sink every night.

Because you're cooking so much more than you were before. And we're here so much more than we ever were before. You know, I would shower at the gym, but now I'm, my dining area is now my gym. And I'm using that bathroom so much more. And I cannot tell you the peace of mind that a clean sink can bring you. And kind of like the piece of just sprit, sprit, spritz, wipe it down. Like, it's such a ritual. So I've really clung even harder to the rituals from the book because they do make me happier.

They do bring me more peace. You know, it's not just some fun idea I wrote about. They were actual practical things that really changed the course of my life. And I think in a pandemic, this is not the time to burn out. This is not the time to be mean to ourselves. It's the time to take care of ourselves because the external world is so out of our control. So I've really doubled down. I'm doubling down on this.

It was a part of the book that really stuck with me was when you were talking about cleaning, because I'm a very messy person and my husband is a very clean person. And you talk about cleaning as a thing you do as a self-care act as a gift for yourself. It's like, why would you run around the house? And this is something I've done a million times, but you write about why would you run around the house when you have company coming over to make it look good for them when you want it to look good in that way for yourself? And that was something I massively internalized. And I was like, why wouldn't I want my space to look good for me? Yeah.

It's that feeling of if I'm going to feel embarrassed, if somebody else came over, why would I want to be at, like, why would I want to live in those conditions? Like, totally. And I just never thought about it that way before. You said that you, you don't think now is the time for like burning out. But have you been as productive during this time or no? Hell no. So I would say like the differences, the first step I took in my own self-care for this pandemic was I let myself fall apart. I decided I'm going to cry.

I feel depressed. I'm super anxious. And one of the things I hope people take away from the book is you have to feel your feelings. Like the more you repress, suppress, or say I shouldn't feel this way, the more they deal with you. the more they come back for vengeance. So in the beginning, I was really anxious. Like, I was supposed to be on a book tour. And I was watching every single event get canceled.

So I was depressed. I was anxious. I spent so long on this book. This book seemed means so much to me. And now everything's ruined. You know, I had a lot of these, like, doom and gloom thoughts. So instead of saying, I shouldn't feel that way, you know, I'm healthy. There's so much more to be grateful for.

I shouldn't pity myself. you know, whatever, I just let myself feel sad. And from that grief, from the real grief that I was feeling, I was able to process it and kind of come around to the other side of, well, actually, the book's coming out at the perfect time because people really need all these self-care routines. And if the reason I wrote the book was to make other people feel less lonely, then, oh my God, now is the time. Like we can't even be around our friends. You know, we're turning to books and entertainment more than ever.

So I don't think I could have gotten to that place had I, like, forced it. You know, I had to feel my feelings first. And then I was able to get to sort of like a more optimistic, um, reframing of the narrative that is all, it's true. It's not like Pollyanna. it is true. And I've forgiven myself for not being productive. You know, I think it's great if you can bake bread and start a yoga practice and then start a small business like dope, amazing, great for you. I can't. I'm doing my best every single day and that is good enough. And I pat myself on the

back for the things that I do. And I keep really small goals. Like, I've been running more. I've been trying to do pull-ups. I'm up to three pull-ups, which is-incredible. Three more than I've done in my life. I think pull-ups are so hard for women because we carry our weight and our strengths so differently than men. And I just hats off to you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it took buying a pull-up bar, which I thought I could. You know, it's weird. I kind of thought I couldn't. I was, like, well, how am I going to put it together? Because it's just not a thing women, like you said, like I'm not used to using a pull-up bar. I don't even, I didn't even know which way to put it in my door frame when it arrived. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It took legit two hours to build something

that should have taken 15 minutes. But it was a small enough goal that I knew I could probably achieve something. And I think if in this pandemic, you're feeling like, I need to be more productive and I need to do the big projects. I'd encourage people to look at the small things. Like, if you, like, let's start small, because that's the only way you ever build anything big anyway. Not that you need to build anything big in a pandemic. Like, it's a crisis.

Yeah. It's sort of weird to need this. Like, we weren't given a productivity holiday. This isn't free time to do, you want with your life. This is a crisis where we're locked inside for our safety. So I think we also need to acknowledge the gravity of the situation. So I love, I'm a huge proponent of feeling your feelings. I think it's not only necessary, but in some ways it's the meaning of life. And but I sometimes find that when I do that, I let myself grieve. I let myself sort of wallow a bit.

I have a hard time climbing out the other side. So do you have a way you structure it so that it's productive rather than something that sort of drags you backward? Yes, absolutely. And I think the first thing is I acknowledge that if I don't deal with those feelings head on, they're going to deal with me now or later. Like I write in the book, That Which You Do Not Deal with deals with you always. It's like the promise I can make anyone. So the very first thing I say is like, okay, there is a reason to go through the grief. There is a reason. It's not, just wallowing. It's got to be dealt with. Otherwise, it's going to deal with me at some other point. So then from the ashes of, and I can like in the beginning of this pandemic, legit crying on my

couch, woe is me, unshoured, pajamas for days, like had my whole little mouthbound. The first thing I do is I strip away everything in my life that is not working. So that's, I'm putting too many pressures on my time. I'm trying to like make plans with people. I'm trying to have too many expectations. No, there's no expectations but committing to one thing I can do. And the first thing I could do was start to make my bed again. So I started to make my bed again. And then the next thing I could do is start to work out again. So I started to work out again. And it's the same as dealing, you know, I've spent my life dealing with anxiety and depression. And it's the same strategy that I would use for depression, which is you can't focus on the big

goal of like, how am I going to be happy again? It's just what's the very next step that needs to be taken? What's the very next thing I can do? And you start building up. And once I've got one step in place, so for me making my bed, I always have a particular friend I call and I ask her, to remind me of who I am because sometimes in depression or when I feel overwhelmed with anxiety, I kind of forget about myself. I get hopeless and I forget about what are the things that make me shiny and unique. What do I like about me? I'm just seeing everything through doom. So I text this friend, hey, I'm super depressed. Can you lead me back to sunshine? And it, I mean, it is just a coping mechanism.

Like we've talked about it. She knows about my depression issues and she will remind me of the things I like about myself, the things she loves about me. And, you know, it's twofold. I remember, but I'm also letting myself be seen. Like I'm letting her see that yes, I'm in this place, but also I'm a strong person with all these other things about me that that are so much richer and bigger than this one depressed moment. And, you know, I think depression and anxiety and they're usually linked, they make us

feel small and alone and nobody understands and I'm untethered. I'm in outer space. I'm disconnected from the mothership. I'm floating. How will I ever get back? And when you really really reach out to a friend who knows you and who knows that this is something that you deal with, you can hand by hand reel yourself back in. So yeah, I really, for me, it's the strip away everything that doesn't work. Start with like what's one thing I can do and let me not focus on results. Like I'm not focused on getting happy. I'm just focused on taking care of myself little by little, and then reaching out to somebody in my community who knows me and who knows kind of how to bring me back in. Could you share some of the stuff that she says?

Yeah. She'll say, I have to think for a second, but she'll say something like you're trusting and shiny and you love adventures and you love to travel and just remember that just like you've gotten out of this every other single time it's happened in your life. you will get out of it and we will smile and we will be back together. And I encourage anyone who suffers from anxiety or depression or just being overwhelmed to talk in advance with a friend. So like this isn't just coming out of nowhere. Like we have discussed this. So she knows that when I come to her in this state, there's a very simple thing she can do to help me because your friends do want to help, sometimes they just don't know how. So I've given her the tools, but I'm also

trusting that she'll deliver. And it doesn't have to be just one friend either. In this case, it's my friend Fish, who I write a lot about in the book, but I also have my friend Julia, who I also write about. So the two of them, I always, I tend to like tell them both at the same time. So it's also not all the pressures on one of them to help. They can both carry a little water. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah. But it definitely is like very intentional because depression, I know we've no longer even see depression as a problem in my life. It's not like a problem to be solved.

It's not something I need to fix about myself. It is a part of who I am. I'm going to be dealing with it for the rest of my life. So it'd be better to have a way that I work through it, a process. rather than every time it's feeling like a disaster and I don't know what I'm doing. It's so interesting. So I have I've suffered from depression a little bit, but anxiety has been a huge thing throughout my life. And I've tried to come to the point where I don't see this problem. I kind of know my coping mechanisms. I also, I can see the upsides of it too.

Like I can see the parts of my personality that it contributes to that make me a good person. And then my husband and I will talk sometimes and I'll be like, yeah, like, I don't see it as a negative thing. I want you to love me as my most whole person and stuff like that. And he'll be like, well, yeah, but if you could get rid of your anxiety, you would do it, right? And if you could get rid of your depression, you would do it. So it's interesting because I feel like the act of having a mental health or even a physical health issue, I'm sure it's this push pull of embracing it as part of your whole person, but also like trying to work on it and make. it better and be free from the parts of it that hold you back. Well, and I would also say it's also

seeing what anxiety and depression unlock in you because I am a much more empathetic person due to my depression. I know the bottom. I know what the bottom feels like so I can better connect with people who feel that. I better understand where they're coming from so I can talk to them. And I, for that alone, I wouldn't give up my depression. And that sounds, it's funny you say your husband. I was dating somebody recently. And he was like, well, yeah, but you'd, if you could just fix it, if you could genetically fix it, wouldn't you just get out of your depression? I was like, no, because it's been a dark teacher to me, one that has made my life so much richer. And we don't know how things could have ended up. I have no idea who I'd be without depression, but I know that I

really like the person that I am now, and I wouldn't trade that for anything. And so I think it's also seeing, like, if you just reduce it to what its most negative aspects are, you miss out on what else does it teach you? What else does it give you? I mean, it's taken a lot of work to get to that place, right? Like, and I'm not suicidal. So I also respect that there are gradations of that and there are some people who obviously it's just a negative in their life and there's nothing positive. So I'm also only speaking for my very particular set of circumstances. Absolutely. But I do think that's something I'm definitely working on is being. And I think it comes from like you said being really happy with who you are and the person you are. Do you remember when

that started for you? Like when you woke up and you were like, I love me. I'm happy with me. I think it happened gradually. You know, so the book that I wrote is about how I grew up in a neglected household. And at the age of 25 hit rock bottom when I drunk dialed my therapist threatening to hurt myself. And then being like, oh, God, that's not how a huge, should act. I'm finally willing to admit I didn't have parents in the sense of role models who teach you how to nurture yourself. And if somebody's going to do that, I'm going to have to do the work. And so as I did the work, which for me meant therapy, reading memoirs as self-help and like taking little notes. I'm like, well, Nora Ephron says to do this. And Steve Martin says to do this.

It meant trying on any advice I heard from my friends, even stuff that I thought was to woo-woo, like a gratitude practice. I paid attention to my life. I paid attention to how I was leading it. I paid attention to how am I going to confront this sort of challenge when it arises. And it was in that gradual practice. I remember I had one sort of insight moment, which was, and I write a, about it in the book was I was going for a jog in New York and it was right before it snowed. And I came back to my tiny little studio apartment and I lit a candle that smelled like a campfire.

And I was using a calligraphy pen just to like write out positive affirmations. And I was like having fun just for fun. There was no productive ends to what I was doing. I was just enjoying my company. And in that moment where I felt so alive with enjoyment, that was one of the first moments where I was like, whoa, life is not a series of crises to be endured. Life is to be enjoyed. I wasn't given this life to suffer through it, even though that's what I was taught is a young girl to 25. I'm allowed to enjoy my life.

In fact, if I don't enjoy my life, if I don't enjoy this present moment as bad as it is, kind of what am I even doing? And that has sort of even come up in the pandemic is this is our life, not a month from now, not when quote unquote, things get normal again. This is just it. And if anything has shown us that presence is super important.

I think it's something like a pandemic. And so I'm not saying everybody needs to enjoy every single second, but I'm definitely looking for ways to enjoy and feel grateful for the little things within the pandemic that I can enjoy and be grateful for. But to get back to your question, it was that it was probably like two years into doing the work. And I was doing a gratitude practice and journaling and running. and I had some of the basic habits down. That's probably when I was sort of like, aha, I can enjoy myself. Do you get jealous?

Hmm. Every once in a while, yes. But of like strange things. So, for example, I've never been jealous of somebody's quote-unquote good family. I've never one time been like, ooh, I wish they were my parents and this, you know, the things had worked out differently. Like, I'm generally just excited for friends if they have things good. So I'm never jealous of friends or families or relationships, but every

once in a while, I'll feel a pang of envy. And it's usually a career thing. It's usually, I wish I was writing that or I wish I was doing that. But what I've learned to do is kind of flip it and see oh, well, because they did that and because they have that, that means I could have that too. I'm smart. I'm capable. I'm hardworking. So they've shown what's possible. So I always, I actually now use my jealousy or my envy as a guide towards what I'd like to be doing and kind of use it as a positive signpost that it's possible as opposed to beating myself up about it. I've tried pretty much every bar on the planet, food editor life, you know. And the reason that Go Macro is always my go-to is because it's the only one that actually fills me up.

I eat them after a hard workout or when I need a snack and I'm sick of cooking because we're now cooking three full meals a day. And it is a lot. For all of May, Go Macro is going above and beyond and donating 10% of their net proceeds from their peanut butter macro bar to Farm Sanctuary. First of all, this is one of the best bars. if you love peanut butter, you are going to be obsessed. There are house-made peanut butter chips that are so addictive. Second, Farm Sanctuary is just an awesome organization to support. As one of the nation's largest animal sanctuaries, Farm Sanctuary has rescued thousands of animals and has cared for them at its sanctuaries in New York and California. And I love that you can help animals by eating delicious snacks. It's a win-win, my absolute dream situation.

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What about when the reward feels inequitable? Like, what about when somebody who you just feel like did not deserve that writing gig gets it and maybe you don't? Or somebody gets this wonderful husband or girlfriend or whatever and you're just like, you're a terrible person. You know, I just feel it less and less. the only time I'm sometimes in entertainment, I'll be like, oh, well, they're just the daughter of so-and-so. And so that, like, I actually can think of. Yeah, like nepotism kills me. And also people, it's hard because I get, especially like in my world in editorial and in the publishing world in New York City, almost everybody is born into incredible amounts of wealth because you need to work for no money for so long to be able to live in the world. And I don't know if Hollywood, is the same as that. So I'm constantly being surrounded with people whose parents are millionaires and billionaires. And I get really jealous about like they got access to these schools and they have these opportunities. Or even when the pandemic hit and I had friends who were like going to their second

homes and getting out of the city. And I was like, I can't stop myself, you know. And then I feel terrible because these are good people. And they didn't ask to have rich parents, you know. And I was raised with a certain amount of privilege might, you know, I wasn't hungry growing up. We weren't rich, but I wasn't starving. I would say it's about staying, like, I don't even love this expression, but staying in your own lane and not looking around your shoulder. Where I can really relate to this, like, I'm actually thinking of a book that just came out, and I'm just like, am I, I don't know, am I allowed to curse?

Yeah. I'm like, motherfucker. You said I live your book. I've already done that. but this person came out of the book and I'm like, motherfucker, the only reason that anybody cares at all that you wrote this book from your insane place of privilege is that your parents are incredibly famous. And it was, I would like feel this little pang. And then I just realized there's enough for all of us. Like genuinely, who cares? I don't know this person's struggle. I have

no idea what their life is like. I have no idea what problems they have. I do know that many of my wealthy friends are some of the most unhappy human beings I know who feel extreme guilt for the privileges that they've been given and cannot enjoy their lives. So, like, I don't know what their deal is. And there's plenty for me too. And maybe I'm not getting this exact same thing right now, but I work hard. I do the best I can. I like what I make. People seem to like what I make. So that's got to be enough. And I even remember at work, there was for a long time a guy who had an assistant and I didn't have an assistant. And in Hollywood, that's like a big deal. And I had way more shows on the air. I had a huge workload. And every time I'd hear the assistant pick up the phone and say, so and so's office,

I would like burn with fire of like, fuck this guy. Like I work five times harder than him. It's just because he's a dude. If I, like, I had a laundry list of reasons that I was going to murder this guy in his sleep, like full on plans to burn down his home. Then I sort of was like, you know what? This doesn't serve me how upset I am, how angry I am. It's only making me a smaller version of myself.

and because he has that assistant, now I know I can too. Because that woman published the book with her famous parents, I can too. Like I would just challenge anyone to see, when you see something you're jealous of, to see it as a post that says you can have this too. You're going to get it for different reasons than they got it because you don't have that context, but look what's available. And it might be some shade of it. It might not be exactly what they have. But there's more stuff available to all of us. There's more opportunity. And when we start thinking it's a zero-sum game, only some people win and then some people lose and I'm on the

losing side, you definitely are on the losing side because you're becoming smaller and smaller in your vision. So I operate with tricks. Basically, any good habit I have, I have tricked myself into believing, but it has made me a much more happy, content, stable, and able to jump at an opportunity when I see it because I'm prepared. I believe that I can have these things. So I'm constantly doing the work. I'm always prepared to jump into the next opportunity. opportunity. Can you apply that? And then I'll move off of jealousy, but can you apply that to something that won't change? Like, if you're jealous of somebody's looks and your looks aren't going to change and their looks are, you know, looks change as you get older, but mostly set.

I think it's something where you kind of have to ask yourself, is this serving me? Ask yourself, instead of looking externally to them and their beauty or whatever, why am I having these feelings? am I, I'm putting myself in this prison right now of comparing myself. Why do I want to be in a prison cell? I would challenge the person to work on themselves. And if you've got like a body image, I write in the book about how much I hated my boobs. I know. We talked about that a little bit before because I love my boobs. They're like my favorite part of my body. I never wear bras. And I think it makes your boobs per year if you can not wear bras to not wear bras. And I just, I've been obsessed with them for years. And you were like, I can't imagine a woman loving her boobs. I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't imagine it

because it was so untrue for me. Like he hated my boobs. So I tricked myself for liking them. Like I started doing things to treat myself nicer. And it doesn't even have to be, you know, if you don't want to wear a bra, like another way I could have done it. And something I do. And this is definitely a TMI, but I like bought the most luxurious like ocean based moisturizer and I like give myself like a nice little boob massage in front of the mirror and I honor. Yeah, I honor my body instead of tear it down. So if you're putting yourself in a prison cell of tearing yourself down, you're the one who has the keys. You're the one who has to figure out well, what's going to be the thing to flip this for me?

How can I change this story? Because we're all just telling ourselves a bunch of stories all day about, I'm not pretty. My nose is too big. My eyebrows aren't right. Everything's wrong. Like in the book I write, like someone had said to me that they wanted to get rid of their back fat. And I was like, wait, what the fuck is back fat? Like I didn't even look at my back.

I have back fat. Whatever lame-ass story you're telling yourself about what you can't do or you're don't have or what's ugly about you, you are the narrator. Like we all need to remember, like, we narrate the story. So the best advice I can give is come up with a different story and trick yourself, do whatever is necessary to get on board with that story. Because the more time you waste in that story of what you don't have, what could be better, the more you make it true because you're living in it.

That's so interesting. Yeah, we talked about that a lot for people, for context, people listening at the podcast. We picked Tara's book for our LM online Instagram book club. And we were all talking about that. And I thought the part where you kind of learn to nurture and love the parts of your body that you didn't like about yourself was so resonant. And for me, it's my chin. Ooh. Yeah, I just feel like I have a week. I actually had a plastic surgeon, uh, tell me at a dinner party completely. I did not request this information. at all, but he told me that I had a weak chin, but that it was okay, and he would not choose to operate on it because I have a petite rest of my features as well. The rest of my features

were petite. So it was like, it was a bad chin, but it was okay. Boom. Right. But I just, whenever I do on camera stuff, I'm just always looking at my chin. I shot a video series and I was talking to the director of photography, the guy like actually filming my face. And I was just like, a little bit up like just watch my chin please and I read that part in your book and I asked the people in book club what I could do because you can't buy you talk about buying pretty bras for your boobs and I was like I can't buy a pretty bra for my chin and they suggested doing a guasha ritual just to like which is like a TCM practice where you take a stone and sort of run it along your chin and your neck and to do that but I just I think it's really interesting figuring out what parts have always

irked you and then almost like a little puzzle trying to figure out what would make you feel really nurtured and good about them. Yeah. I mean, and as an example, you know, we're on Zoom right now. I had not thought about your chin for like a second. We are our own front of me's. We are so fucking mean to ourselves. Yeah. Like I don't know where exactly, and I think it's particularly women. I don't know why or where we have been taught to be so fucking mean and cruel and repetitively, like over and over and over. Oh, I think it's a cycle. I mean, not to sound, I'm not like a communist, but I do think that capitalism thrives. We need to feel a certain amount of bad about ourselves to spend the money to fix ourselves. Right. I think the economy

would grind to a halt if every woman in the world was like, I'm beautiful and I don't need anything to feel fucking fabulous. Yeah, like, I am enough. Yeah. Every person woke up tomorrow and was like, I am enough. The economy would die. Grind to a halt. Or maybe we'd be spending our money on like loose yoga clothes and meditation retreats.

Maybe it'd be a different economy we could build. That's interesting in the Tarotopia. I'm bringing it 20, 2020, baby. 2020 is our year. Let's just reclaim 2020. Yeah. Back half, back half.

Back half, 2020. You've mentioned your amazing job a few times, and I would just love to have you talk about it for a second, your career progression, how you ended up in a job that I think a lot of people would be really envious of, although they would have worked on their envy by listening to the previous part of the podcast. Yeah. And I even, it's an interesting time because I recently left my job. So I was at, yes, I was at Comedy Central for 11 years, 12, if you count my time at the daily show. So basically my entire professional career. That's crazy. Yeah.

That's a big leap. What are you doing now? Well, the book kind of showed me a completely different path. Like, it's been incredible to see how deeply the message resonated with people and how much people thought the book was funny because I've always been a writer. But when my job is, my day job is to nurture other voices and to nurture other talent. And I've done that for a long time. And I've done that with people like Keen Peel or David Spade or Nikki Glazer,

or help them define their voice, help them find what platforms would be best for that. Like Key and Peel, even though it was a linear TV show, we very quickly were like, we need to get these sketches on YouTube. And that was my job, was to, with Keegan and Jordan, figure out what we were going to put on the internet

for which audiences, which was not done at the time that Key and Peel came out. That was not a strategy at all. And in fact, people said, that will ruin the TV show, no one will watch it on air if you give it for free on YouTube. So it was like a big struggle to get that done. But I had spent so much time nurturing other people's points of view that I needed a break to kind of reassess like, what do I want to do next?

How do I nurture my point of view? And it was an incredible job where I've got to meet and befriend some of the greatest artists in the world. But I kind of did it. Like, I did it at a very high level. And I'm working on a second book, and I'm working on, you know, what more creative stuff do I want to put into the world?

And is there a particular artist I'd like to incubate? Is there something, what's my next move? And I can't share all the details at this particular moment. but I think it's going to be very exciting. I think it's about knowing when you've outgrown a place, you know, like knowing one to let go. So I think that that type of transition, a lot of people would love to make a leap like that,

but they might be scared. Like you don't make that much money often in writing books and to take away that sort of background stable salary or to be like, well, do all these artists, like me and want to talk to me because I wield power at my, you know, network job. How did you deal with those feelings of self-doubt and questioning? So I had built for myself a really sweet deal. So a lot of this is just that I had fought for myself at every single, some of this I can't talk about, but I had built for myself. If you read the book, like the number one thing I think that

rings out is I came from chaos so I had to build stability. That's what the whole first book is about is how do you ground yourself? How do you build routines and rituals that really work for you? And so the whole first part of my career has been about grounding myself, building structure, saving all of my money, like not buying, always choosing to live well, well, well under my means. which over 11 years adds up. And so I had created for myself a safety net in many ways. And there was sort of an outgrowing going on, not only for me, but it was just time. But it was very, very intentional.

Like had I not saved, I think a lot of people obviously, you know, a job, you need money to survive. I made a choice not to go to as many weddings. I made a choice not to go on as many girls' trips. I made a lot of choices that kept more money in the bank because I knew I wanted to make a leap. And so I think it's like a twofold thing. Like mentally I had built the confidence and the stability. And in the very practical sense,

I live in an apartment that was well below, my means, I drive a really modest car. I never did any of the flashy Hollywood things. First off, because they wouldn't make me any happier. But second off, they weren't a part of the plan. The plan was stability so that I could see how much bigger I could make my life. How much more expansive can I make my life? How much more spiritually fulfilled can I be? And to do that, I knew that I needed financial stability. Are you motivated in your career or in your life by accumulating wealth or being well off? It's a question I ask myself a lot because I want to always know like what's my intention with something.

Well, and your childhood was really interesting with that because it feels like you kind of were and weren't and you flip flopped between being well off and not a lot and also probably being surrounded by a lot of really well off people. Yeah, absolutely. It was like a boom and bust economy. Like one moment my parents were super wealthy. The next, I'm literally watching my mom's car be repossessed and the house for closed on and the office for closed on. So really like traumatic. I mean, anyone who's been through that or your family has like your house for closed on knows that it's really a painful, shameful bad experience. So I saw that. And then I didn't write about this at all. And maybe I'll write it about it in book two. But for a while, my dad was involved with somebody extremely wealthy, like beyond, beyond, beyond, like billionaire territory. And she was one of the most unhappy people I've ever encountered in my life because nothing was real. Like the only people she had around her, she was paying to be there. And so she started behaving worse and worse because she didn't trust anybody. But because she didn't trust anybody, nobody really liked her. So it was like this horrible cycle. And I just learned really young as much as I'd like money to

buy happiness because that seems like a good solution. It just straight up doesn't. What money can buy, though, is a little bit of stability and like not being afraid of just where am I going to eat. So the thing that motivates me there is I just don't want to worry. Like, I'm not motivated to be a billionaire, although I wouldn't kick it out of bed. But I am motivated to lead a comfortable life. You know, that's definitely, like, it's got to be comfortable. It's got to be stable. Stability is a huge part of all this.

And, you know, had the book not found an audience, I don't know that I would have been okay, not having, you know, my executive job as the thing that defines me. I don't know, but it felt right. When I was given the opportunity, it felt right. Like, okay, I see, I see. This is what I've been building towards. This is what I've planned for. Okay, now it's time.

I have enough of a safety net. I have, I guess what I'm trying to say is I think people get super intimidated by taking the big swing, I could never take a big swing like that. I didn't first start out as a writer and author. Started out as a fucking corporate cog in a machine, a cool machine. Yeah.

You know, a super cool machine that I learned so much from. But there's this great book by Adam Grant called The Originals. And it's about how in this country we think of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates as these loan entrepreneurs, who threw caution to the wind to go after their dreams. And if you can't do that, you're never going to do it.

And that is such fucking bullshit. They were rich people with, like, Steve Jobs could go back with his parents. Bill Gates just took a leave of absence from Harvard. He did not drop out. Like, all these people had safety blankets that made it okay to take a leap in another arena because they were safe in one. So I actually think part of all this was reading Adam's book and seeing what a lie the lone entrepreneur is and that over time the entrepreneur who takes calculated small risks and has a

really solid safety net that they either were born with or build for themselves. Those are the people who are successful over time. not the flashy guy who burns out after his startup really was nothing, really was a hoax. So I would just encourage people not to, I wouldn't take the big swing. I wouldn't do that. That's not me. That would freak me out and scare me and then I'd do nothing. But a little swing every day until I've saved a little bit, a little bit, a little bit over 11 years.

Now the swing isn't so big. at the beginning it would have been, I absolutely couldn't have done that. Were there any things in your career that helped you climb that corporate ladder to be quite hot? You were the vice president of talent and development. Talent and development at Comedy Central. Yeah.

Were there things that helped you succeed in that more traditional environment? And then are there things that are helping you succeed now in this sort of more free-form environment? Yeah, absolutely. So in the first is I never asked what can my job give me. I never said, what's it going to give me? I always kind of was like, what value can I bring to this project? What value can I bring that no one else can bring to this assignment?

And I looked for things that were overlooked. So in the book I write about, you know, the coffee machine at the Daily Show, I would notice that before John Stewart would go on stage, this is after rehearsal, before they tape, he would make himself his own capsule coffee. But the coffee machine was often broken or there was no water in the tank, like, or there was like an ominous red light just blinking. And I kind of saw like, oh my God, that's that's my big break. I will be the person who dependably, reliably, excellently, cleans and fixes and always make sure that coffee machine is in good working order. And there was no competition for the role. Nobody else wanted to do it. But I was able to make myself stand out as bringing value to that team.

And I think we often forget how much value we bring. We get lost in the politics and, oh, I didn't get that thing and so-and-so got more than me. You're focusing on the wrong questions. The question is, what value do you bring to something that nobody else brings? Because we get to bring our own perspective and our own experiences. So even when I switched from Digital at Comedy Central to development, which is like a much more public-facing big job, how I ended up in the job I had was I pitched myself based on all the experiences I had on digital. Like, I can bring you all this value. Yes, I don't have the exact background you are looking for.

In fact, I have a much better background. I understand the digital space. I understand what audiences are looking for. I understand how to distribute it. I can be a value add to your team. So I'd say in a corporate world, it's always looking about not how do you fit in? How do you add? How do you bring something and how can you tell that story to whomever is higher than you or hiring? How do you advocate and manage up? I also would always

write notes to my boss about things I had done. Like I was never silent. I never was just silently. How do you do that without being annoying? Like how do you self-brag without sounding like yourself bragging? I think first off, we just need to get over it. You know, like who's going to be your cheerleader if you're not? And why would anybody take time on somebody? Usually particularly women are like, well, it was just luck. And, oh, I was just in the right time at the right place, right time. Fuck that.

No, I work my ass off. So in a kind of, like, respectful way, I would send, like, status reports. Nobody was asking me for a status report. and they never said, like, I did this excellently and it was just me and I was the only one. But I would say put together a live stream of this event and so-and-so in press was so helpful and so-and-so in marketing was so helpful. And a key takeaway for me was we could be better integrating these teams overall. I've got some ideas on that.

I'd love to talk to you more about it. they were all again, they were coming from a value ad place as opposed to I'm bragging. They were kind of like, I've seen something. So they're sort of like a managing up proclamation of things I've been working on married to, I think these are better practices. Here's something I'm noticing. And I was actually cleaning out my inbox recently. And I just, I was shocked at how often I did this for and how many years I did it for because nobody in a corporate environment gives you anything.

Not one. I hope that this makes people feel really reassured. There's not an internship, a promotion, a money bump, a cool trip. There's not one thing that fell into my lap that I can tell you about for my career, not one. they were all things I asked for. And you can't get what you don't ask for. And I think women have a really harder time than dudes asking for these things. But like any habit, it's just a habit.

It's just something you have to practice doing in your life, in your career. So I think it's what anyone in a corporate setting can do is look for where am I a value add, not just fit in? Can I persistently show that value? Make sure it's not just happening in a vacuum where nobody knows what the fuck I'm doing. Can I like show it in a way that's not annoying to your question? And can I keep going? Like, persistence is way more important than most other things, just continuing to show up and to be known as a confident, reliable person, over time, that's incredibly helpful. And, you know, on the creative part, I don't know the answers to that yet because it's a little new to me. But I do know that I

approach it like a job. I have a schedule. I have deadlines. I have deadlines. I have have goals. Like, you know, somebody asked me about creativity. Like, well, don't you need to be inspired to create? And if I needed to be inspired to write, I would never fucking write. Because I've, the number of times I've been inspired has been like zero. I think that's one of the best things about working in episodic television as far as I can tell is that you have to put out a TV show at a certain. Like the network's not going to be like, oh, you weren't inspired.

well, we shall wait. Yeah, exactly. Like the thing I've learned from the business side, we won't wait. We'll cancel your show. You're contractually obligated to deliver us X amount of episodes. So get to it. And I think it's actually really, it is overwhelming if you have to be inspired to write. It's just not sustainable.

And also, like, I hate to burst the bubble about writing. writing, but writing is a habit. It's a practice. It's not some magical. There are moments where it can feel magical, but any writer, like, I don't even, I don't trust writers who are like, writing is just always so easy. And like, oh, I was always so fun. I'm like, what? I don't know. Writing is horrible half the time, but the relief I feel. If not more. Right? If you're lucky, it's like only horrible half the time. So, you know, like, as you know, as you know, I'd ask you, doesn't it feel more like a relief when you're done with something? Yeah, my friend who is a literary fiction writer, she described it as like it's excruciating

every time she does it, but it feels so good to be done with it. And I think that's how I would describe writing for myself. And I think it's excruciating because to an extent most of what you write is never going to be as good as you want it to be. And I think that's where sometimes you'll write that perfect sentence or you'll just be able to articulate something that was exactly in your head. But most of the time, we fall short of our expectations of ourselves. And I think that's why we procrastinate. And that's why we don't do these things, or we wait for our inspiration or anything like that is because we're afraid of that feeling of falling short. So I think for me in my writing, it's going into it,

knowing that I will 100% fall short and then I can go back and revise and edit and eventually get it to where I want it to be, but I don't need it to be there initially. I couldn't agree more, you know, and I'll even take it a step further. One, like, visualization I do before I write is I visualize that I've put a cardboard box on my desk and in the cardboard box I've put the word good and then I put the word interesting. then I close the box, I tape it up, and I throw it the fuck off my desk, because it is not for me to make this good or interesting. I have no power over that.

I don't know if it's good or interesting ever. I've never written something that I knew if it was good or interesting. My only task is to show up, write, and do the best that I can in that moment. And the rest is for other people to decide. But so I don't, I barely have expectations on my own writing other than did I do it. And why did I want to do it? Because my soul needs to write. I was an executive and I was yet waking up early in the morning to write.

Like that's when I knew I was a writer because it was not necessary, not a part of the job. It was just something I felt better doing than not doing. So for me, it's like I had to get completely get rid of my expectations in order to kind of move forward. Pragmatically, how did you go about getting the book deal in the first place? So I had been writing every morning before work for a long time. And I also went to college for playwriting. So I had been practicing writing for a long time and journaling. And so I just started getting a little guts here.

So I always knew I wanted to write. But I was like, you can't write. Basically because my parents told me I couldn't be an artist. They were like, you can't do it. You'll never make it. I was writing about this morning. Like I would get every role I ever auditioned for. And all the other parents would show up with flowers for their kids.

And my parents just wouldn't show. Or if they did show, my dad would give me a stern, warning about how the entertainment business was so hard and it was going to, you know, ruin my life. You know, I was in high school and fucking need to worry. I wasn't threatening to drop out of high school and act. And it was, you know, I asked him years later, actually, why? Why were you so unsupportive? Or did I make that up? Were you actually supportive? And I just was playing some story in my head. And he said, I'll never forget this. He said, no, you're really. You're right, I wasn't supportive, I was afraid for you. I was afraid you'd fail and I didn't want you to

fail. So I thought if I told you that, you know, I could help you. And really what he was talking about is his own fears of failure, his own, like that's all his fear for me, not my own. So he kind of taught it to me. And so practically, I decided to write, to make writing a habit for me and to to little by little, like, I read the artist's way, which I highly recommend. Have you, have you read the artist's way? I haven't, but I just did this morning and evening routine episode and I interviewed Dana from Minimalist Baker. Do you know she's like wonderful, healthy recipes. Ooh, I can't wait to check it out. But she said that the artist's way completely changed her. She's also a big journaling fan, so I feel like you guys would be

very sympathetico. But she said it changed her life. And I feel like now, when something happens two podcasts in a row, I have to get on it. And I'm writing down a minimalist baker. I can't wait to check her out. I need healthy recipes, which is why I bought your book. But I digress. Yeah, like the artist's way, if you are a stifled, creative person, especially somebody who is told very young that you couldn't be creative, even though you had these impulses, it fucking blows the lid off of things. It's basically a 12-step recovery program for people. who for whatever reason feel like they can't create. You write every day, right?

Yeah. I write every day. No, no, the artist's way, like, the program is you create every day? It's actually like a 12-week program of like many, many, many different exercises and things. But one of the practices in it is the morning pages, which is what my journaling is adopted from. and that's just three pages in long hand just written out word vomit about what you're thinking. That is a really important part of her book. But one thing she brings up is like you don't start being a writer by needing to be the best writer

and needing to finish a screenplay. Like the product can't be the first thing you think about. It's really like the practice and the process. and not to get too spiritual, but it's like in any spiritual practice also. It's like your life is not about the product and the things you make, but how did you get there? Like the journey. And it sounds so cliche, but literally every smart person I've ever wanted to be like has followed this same kind of path. And so I thought if it's like good enough for like Oprah, Julia Cameron, Einstein, if it's smart enough for all these people,

well, if it's good enough for all of them, it's probably good enough for me. And so I stopped worrying about writing a book. So writing a book was never my goal. Writing once a day for 20 minutes was. And then writing once a day for 30 minutes. And then can I write for one hour? Then after I'd accumulated a bunch of small goals like that, I realized, can I get something in the New York or online? Like, I love reading their daily shouts. Can I get one of those? And so I started dissecting them. Like, what's the math? Like, how do they write these? And like reverse engineering the jokes and reverse engineering, like, and kind of seeing what the structure was. And then, well, how would I do one of these? And just thinking it through. And then I pitched my first one. And I don't remember if the first one got,

I don't even remember like the rejection where I got rejected. Because I've been rejected so many times. that it would be hard to remember exactly. But when I got my first New Yorker thing, I was like, ha ha, one small step taken, let me make another. Now let me reach out to somebody about this book idea I have. But it wasn't, like, the first thing I did was not try to find an agent. The first thing I did was try to write for 20 minutes.

Because I think people get really stuck. They're like, I need an agent. I need a manager. It's like the number one thing that young writers come to me with is like, how do I find this manager who's going to make my career? It's like, dude, there's, it just doesn't exist. Like, maybe it did 20 years ago. I have no idea. I wasn't around then. But like, it certainly doesn't exist now. Can you write? Have you flexed your craft? Do you have a practice? Do you have a process? us, like, those are the first things to worry about before the book or the essay or whatever.

Or even beyond that, I was explaining to somebody recently, they were telling me about a book idea that they had and they were like, I just need to get an agent so I can sell it. And I was like, well, do you have a platform? How are you going to sell it? Because that's the number one question that publishers ask these days. They can only pull so many levers and their job is to sell books. They'll really rely on you to do that. And she's like, oh, I thought that was the agent's job.

I thought the agent would sell the book to the public for me. And I was like, no, the agent sells the book to the publishing house, but you sell your book to the public. And if you can't bring that to the table, you're going to have a really hard time finding somebody who wants to work with you. So I think part of the steps is realizing how much of it is your responsibility and not just waiting for somebody to come with like a magic wand because you have so much inherent specialness to offer. 100%. And like it's the same thing with actors. I mean, it's the same thing with any creative endeavor. To a certain extent, you have to make your own opportunities. Nobody is going to, even with shows at Comedy Central, I would say to the talent, what's your platform?

Spend millions of dollars on your marketing, right? Like a big marketing push. That's not enough. You also have to be grinding to get this out there. It's really hard to make noise right now. And so even if you don't have a big platform, because when I sold, my first book, I really didn't have a big platform, but I had worked the first hundred pages of my book. I had spent nine months every single morning grinding out those words and doing my best job.

Again, not bothering if it was good or interesting, but was I showing up as fully authentically as I could? Was I being as rigorous as I could? Was I flexing my craft as hard as I could? was I staying in on weekends and not seeing my friends and not going to some weddings because I needed to write this thing. Yes, I was giving it my all. And that, you know, that hundred pages is what's bolded. Well, and there's the quality of the book, which I think speaks for itself for anybody who's read it. But there's also the fact that you had been doing the work outside of that to build a career that is immediately impressive that, you know, I think Chelsea Handler blurbed your book. There's other ways that you've done the work to sort of build the credibility and you were in

the New Yorker, which immediately people are like, oh, she's in the New Yorker. Like, there's so many little ways that you build credibility and the ability to do this type of thing. And I think when you find that success, you're able to kind of put all the pieces together. But sometimes until you find that success, you're not quite sure how everything stacks up. Totally, which is 100% right. And which is why, again, I would encourage people, it's not about the big goal. It's about like the small steps. And the small steps are the pleasurable parts.

I mean, getting my first thing in Daily Shouts for the New Yorker, that was one of the absolute best moments of my life. hands down. That felt, like, I felt so proud of myself. Like, when my editor will tell me that she, that like a sentence, she's like, oh, I love this. This one really works. That feels so much better than I did like, well, I was going to, some of the things that sound flashier or more fun, it's like the small steps feel amazing. And when you. add them all up, you can take these bigger leaps. But it gets back even to the big swing question. It's like you don't make a big swing. There's no like overnight success thing that I really know about.

And I wouldn't even like want it. This process has been so enjoyable. Every little, racking up small victories over time because I'm really proud of myself in a way that like if I had, just hit it out of the park and I was famous overnight and I had this big thing, I would have missed out on all these beautiful small opportunities and relationships. Because again, what I'm most interested in is stability, longevity. Can you do this for a long time? It's hopefully a very long life. So I don't really get envious of people who like immediately did it because they missed out.

Like, good luck. It's going to be hard, you know? Yeah. I am so excited about this week's podcast sponsor, Sound. I shared Sound on my Instagram a few times, so you may be familiar. But essentially, they combined sparkling water with certified organic tea, botanicals, and fruit extracts. They don't use any sweetener. So they're both sugar and artificial sugar-free, but they still somehow taste amazing.

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You can order all of the sound sparkling teas online at drinksound.com, D-R-I-N-K-S-O-U-N-D.com. And if you use the code, Liz, like my name, L-I-Z, you'll get 20% off. I cannot wait for you to try them. I know you're going to be obsessed. Again, that is drink-sound.com. And the code to get 20% off is Liz. Now, let's get back to the episode. You talked a little bit about your dad and the things he used to tell you or not tell you as a kid. Can you talk a little bit about your childhood and what that was like? And then I think more importantly, how you've come to forgive your parents for it. Yeah. So I grew up in a neglectful household where things came to die.

Everything died. The pets were taken away by coyotes. The bodies, the plants died. Me and my sister made it out alive. It was a, my parents were, if they weren't neglectful of us, they were then in a screaming match of who could be more horrible to the other. And it was just, I sometimes lose sight of even how bad it was because I think, well, I didn't have it that bad. Nobody was ever beating me and I wasn't. in a cage. But like the moment I start to think that way, I remember it was a great phrase from Lori Gottlieb, which is there is no hierarchy of pain. Pain is pain. It doesn't really matter if

somebody else had it quote unquote worse. And I'd offer it's kind of condescending to even need to say like they, well, that person had it worse. Like why? Like that's not helpful to anybody else and it's certainly not helpful to you. So like why do it? So the first step was even acknowledging that it was really traumatic and difficult. And it kind of looked like constant screaming, constant being told, like my mom would tell me they're rapists and murderers and you're likely to end up dead and you're going to be kidnapped. And I mean, I was five. I was just writing a piece about Mother's Day where my mom told me when I was six. I won't ever forget this.

Who is like, I am the only one who loves you. Your dad wanted me to get an abortion, but I had you anyways. Like, wildly inappropriate things where nobody was protecting me. And by the time I turned 25, I realized I just, I need to protect myself. And that meant not having a relationship with my mom at all. One of the things I didn't want to do in the book was blame them because I don't. Like, that's not how I see it. I also didn't want to tell their stories.

I didn't want to, like, pontificate on why it was they acted this way. I don't know. And it's not for me to tell. All I can tell is how it affected me and the choices I made coming out of it. And I think the way that I ended up forgiving my parents, it's extremely simple and extremely complicated. But it kind of even dawned on me after the book was pointed. published. It was this Thanksgiving. It was like pre Thanksgiving dinner with my dad, which is

always a nightmare. And I always, it's like the holidays, so I'll feel a little bad because I would like things to just look like a really nice card. And I wish that I was closer. I'll start to feel myself get into that. And this year, I prayed to God, which is not a thing I do. I was just like, I remember I was in the bathroom of this restaurant. I was like, God, help me. How do I get through this? Like, how can I go through this dinner without bursting into tears? And I'm a grown-ass woman who's done all this work and I have this book.

Like, how can you help me? And a thought occurred to me, which was, what do you have to be grateful to your parents about? And I'm like, oh, I guess that I'm alive. Oh, my God. that I'm alive. Without these two fucked up individuals, I don't get to exist. I don't get to meet my sister. I don't get to go on this incredible journey. I don't get to go to Paris. I don't get to go to Touloum. I don't get to know what it feels like to smell a lily. I get nothing. If not for these two people, birthing me, my mom birthing me into this universe. That is a huge thing to

be grateful for. And so I've always had shades of that with my parents, but this year really was like, boom, here's how. I marry my grief, my sorrow, my sadness over the childhood I never had to my gratitude that I get to be born at all. Because that gratitude is so much stronger than any other feeling. That gratitude I could cry right now, recognizing I got to meet my sister. The most wonderful person that I've ever encountered, I only meet because my parents had us. So of course, I don't even know that forgiveness is the right word. I don't blame them. I don't begrudge them. I don't resent them. I have lots of boundaries. You know, I've chosen not to have my mom in my life at all. I have really pretty strict boundaries with my dad. So I like it's a, I protect myself in those

relationships, but I also have unfettered, soaring, huge gratitude that I get to be here. And I hope to live my life in gratitude to them to having me here. I mean, what's a bigger gift? When did you make the decision to not have your mom in your life at all? So it was always on that path. I don't have any memories where I felt safe or protected from my mom. Like, if I look back at a, at a picture of us when I was a little, like, the first, I have visceral reactions of run. In the book I write about, I was subject to lots of very physical, invasive interactions with her.

And so it was like from very early, I was like, this is not someone you're safe with. Like, you are not safe with this person. and by the time I was 25 in those years leading up to that, she had just done crazier and crazier things that I don't even write about in the book because they were so unrelatable. Me and my editor would, you know, it's kind of a tangent, but when I pitched the book, some editors wanted me to make it a disaster memoir about all the horrible things that happened and really play that up. Like more like educated type vibe.

Yeah, exactly. Like make it like educated like go. I mean, honestly, there's a lot that I didn't say in the book, not because I'm not comfortable talking about it, but because that wasn't the story I was trying to tell. I wasn't trying to tell a worst, a worst case scenario. And I didn't want it to be so traumatic that it wasn't accessible. Is there one thing of that ilk you could share just so that we could get sort of our heads around what type of thing you're talking about?

I mean, I think what I do write about in the book, you know, like really extreme physical examinations of my body from being a little girl like pinned to the floor, looking at every little part of me under the auspices that I'm a doctor, things like that of that nature. And as I got older, it was like harassment. You know, she, my, my mom filed a complaint that I had been sexually molested by somebody as an adult, like filed a complaint on behalf of me to the police in Los Angeles, like this whole weird thing. I've not been molested.

Like, it was like a crazy, yeah, these just weird where you'd like involve the police and a lawyer about a really shameful thing. that actually didn't happen to me, but she was projecting it on to me and then I have to deal with the fallout. So stuff like that. We're just like extreme harassment. So by my early 20s, I was just like, I don't deserve this. I didn't do anything.

And there's no benefit to my mom being in my life. Genuinely no benefit. Well, she stopped being friends with Suzanne Summers by then, so you missed that. So there's really nothing. So I decided my life was more important than a lie that I had a relationship of my mom because that was never a real relationship anyway. And I was trying to actually think exactly when because I was writing about it recently. And it was probably like early 20s where I was strong enough. I was just strong enough to say I don't need to be treated like this anymore.

Has your dad read the book? Yes. So I gave my dad, my sister, and anyone mentioned in the book, like my friends, a copy of the manuscript a year in advance because I really didn't want to hurt anyone. And I gave everyone the option, you know, you can change your name. You can, if you really hate a detail, just tell me and we'll talk. about it. I was really open because again, I did not want to write a disaster memoir. I didn't want to burn anybody. I wanted to be upfront about what I was going to write. And my dad was,

he called me in tears and he was like, I love the book. You were honest. I'm sorry I didn't protect you. I did the best I could. I'm sorry it wasn't more. I wish it was more. It wasn't. don't change your word. And that was extremely healing because it was the first time that we had ever acknowledged what my childhood actually was like. And it felt incredibly validating to be told, yes, this happened. I didn't protect you. Do what you need to do. And I think he's actually in some ways proud that in some small way he can be a part of other people's healing because we didn't shy away from what happened. You know, his stuff is all in there.

It was really more with my mom where the only essay that I didn't include in the book was an essay about my mom because it was the only essay where I hadn't worked it out enough. like I hadn't done enough work. Like I'm still working on that one. I mean, not the essay, the actual human feelings that I feel towards my mom. And when I'm ready, you know, that'll be the time to write about it. But I didn't want to write anything that felt for as raw and honest as the book I've been told feels that felt that felt far too raw. Like it wasn't cooked and needed more time.

I mean, I think that's admirable too. I think that sometimes people will teach about stuff that they're clearly very much still working through themselves. And sometimes it works. And then sometimes I think you can sense it really strongly. And you're just like, maybe you should have waited on this one. So I think it takes a certain amount of strength to hold things back. Well, thank you. So I think that's very admirable.

You have built this bananas family of friends. And reading the book, I was just like, oh, my gosh, how do you find these women and cultivate these types of friendships? And I'm really curious what advice you would have to people about making friends as an adult. It's funny. It's like one of the number one questions I get asked, which is so hard to do. Right. And which has made me realize, like, this is something we desperately need to talk about because everybody wants to know how to do it. And I, you know, I think my answer is going to be not satisfying in some ways, which is if you want to make strong friendships, you have to go out and make strong friendships.

It's like it's the first step and the last. And I'm holding myself to this right now, which is I've identified there's some people. And so I think actually first step, what do you want and need out of your friends? right? Like what do you need more of in your life? What kinds of connections would you like more of? I write in my journal and on my idea board, which I showed Liz, but before this podcast, I like flipped the camera and showed her my beautiful mind style office. But I write these things down from friends. I need nurturing, compassion. I need them to hold my hand. I need a friend to bring me out of darkness when I'm depression like we discuss. I know what my needs are. So that's like very clear in my mind.

And I want to be clear that I'm not talking about like acquaintances or just people you get brunch with like your lady harem is what I call it. Like you're nearest and nearest. How do you find those people? I think a lot of people I feel personally rich in the acquaintances and I think I know a lot of people who feel rich in that category. Like a lot of people I can go out and get a drink with. A lot of people I can have casual conversations with and less of like my soul sister. that I want. Yeah. So I think the first thing is literally writing down what do you want. Like instead of some theory about people I can specifically, like people who lift me up who are doing really interesting things who have had cool careers where I can learn from them. Like get specific

about what you want. And I'd write. I'd write a lot about that. I'd keep that intention alive. Because again, a big thing we're doing here is reprogramming what stories you're telling yourself. So we need to get in the mindset of these are the kind of people I need. I need spiritually generous people who lift me up, who make me feel like a shinier version of myself. Whatever it is, get really specific about what you need. Then I would look at the people you currently know and ask, are my nearest and dearest doing these things, are they meeting these needs? Sometimes you'll see that within your group, there might be people you're spending a lot of time with that you really needn't, that they're actually sucking you dry. And, you know, I actually have somebody that I've had to part ways with

that in the second book, I'll talk, you know, they don't write breakup songs for friendships, but they can feel so much worse than any boyfriend breaking up. So it's a whole other topic. But learning to let go of people who you've outgrown or you've just diverged paths that that's not a bad thing. It's actually natural and growth. And maybe you'll come back together one day in the future, but you definitely won't if you just burn each other out. Then I would look at who in your orbit of the acquaintances, is there anybody in that circle who kind of matches with what you're looking for. And I can actually very specifically say I've done this recently. I knew I wanted to grow who my friends were. And I have a really amazing group of friends. But I knew I was like ready to

kind of grow that group a little. So I kind of wrote down when I'm looking for. I want to be going down a more spiritual path. I would like to meet people who their number one value is kindness over everything else. You know, I had some things in mind and then I looked at the quote unquote acquaintances I had to see if there was anybody in that group who kind of fit that criteria. And yes, this is really specific. Like I almost feel kind of lame going through the like step by step. Like, but none of it's an accident. And so I reached out to this woman and I said to her, listen, I've really admired you. I think you've done so many cool things.

Would you be open to doing some Zooms together? Like, can we just, can we talk more often? She lives in Washington, D.C. She doesn't even live in L.A. And first off, I told her how much I admired her, the things I really loved about her. I was really honest about my intention. And her answer was, fuck yeah.

Let's fucking talk. So we've been talking more often. and building a stronger bond. And now I'm doing a virtual meditation retreat with her next week. Oh, that's so cool. But like, it isn't an accident. Like, these people didn't stumble into my life and just like, oh, I'm so lucky. And do you not feel like, I think people hold themselves back from doing that type of thing

because they feel lame or they feel like everybody else, like, has their friends sorted and they all appear damaged and, some way if they're the person who's like, I don't have my friend sorted. I'm reaching out to you. Yeah. I mean, you kind of have to just say, fuck that. I even just said like, oh, am I being lame that this is all so calculated? Like, I've really thought about it and I have a need. No, I'm a human. What is the number one thing humans want to do? Love and be loved. I have that beating need within me. And to back it up, I'm a fucking great friend. It's not like I'm a burn article attaching myself to cool people to suck them dry, I'm supportive and generous with my time

and I will show up for my nearest and dearest every single time. So I also remember, again, even getting back to what we were talking about in a corporation, I bring value. So I think it's it's not lame to be vulnerable. If it's like authentic and you're not a pity parade of, but I don't have any, like forget about that, even forget about why you ended up in this situation. Just be real with where you are. I would like to have stronger bonds. Amazing.

That's not an embarrassing thing. It's a radically brave thing to just admit, I would like to have stronger bonds. What are the small steps you can take and start with those as opposed to, it's too late, I'm too old, everybody else already has their funds. Like, I just don't waste my time

anymore on those stories because they don't serve me and they don't bring anybody cool into my life. But the moment, the moment I move with intention, the moment I actually start down the path, I realize, oh, well, from my acquaintances, there are actually a few people that I'd love to get to know better. Let me just ask. Let me be a little brave and get on a fucking limb. Let me ask. And if they don't want to be on the limb with me, okay. That's like, what's? What's the, what's the worst that's going to happen? They're going to say, no, I don't want to be your friend. Like, probably not. They're probably not even going to say that to you. You know, like, so what do you have to lose? You only have to gain. I love that. Okay, I just want to touch on

this briefly and then I will ask you the questions that I ask everybody, but how does that all pertain to dating and the idea, especially as you get into your 30s, I have a lot of friends who are like, well, I want to have a baby. I want to have a family, more importantly. They don't want to just get an egg, you know, or a sperm donation or something like that. And they feel like that element of their life is out of their control. You know, there's only, you can't meet men that aren't there for you to meet. So how do you, are you single? I'm single. How do you deal with the negative talk around that? How do you approach dating? How do you mentally make? peace with all of that. You know, the only way I know I'm going to drive myself crazy is if I put so

much pressure on it. If I'm like, what? Like, and I'm 34. Like, ah, I'm 34. If I don't get married now, then I won't have a baby and I won't have this and I won't have a family and Zoom spiral. That's the way I know I won't meet anyone. Because it's not like, who are you going to pull into your orbit if you're freaked out and desperate and upset? And, Why would you want to pull that kind of person in? Really good point. Like the person who wants that is not the person you want to be with. So the first thing to do is look within and to be a good partner to yourself and to date yourself.

And I have so many friends who I've said that too. And I know that it's in one ear and right out the other because what they want is a partner. Be your own partner first. I swear to fucking God, the rest will. follow. And I know this because my issue is not meeting people. I meet a lot of men. The issue is I haven't met somebody who I think would be a good partner in the long term. And I'm good enough with myself that I'd rather be alone than be with the wrong person. So I actually broke up with somebody in the pandemic.

I would rather be alone than I would feel lonely with somebody else. There's a great Glenn and Doyle quote that I have taped up my wall, which is I can't spend any more of my life betraying myself. And I absolutely can't do it. So in a pandemic, I would rather be alone,

rather figure it all out on my own than I would waste any more time with somebody that I know, is not right. And things weren't even that bad. And I still was like, you know what? I got enough practice making myself small. I've had enough practice betraying myself. What I need practice in doing is being strong and being good with myself. And I think a lot of women don't take the time to actually flex that muscle. And like any muscle, you can grow it. But it takes practice. It takes saying no when it's not right when you know you're settling. No, I'm more afraid of betraying

myself than I am of being alone. And so it really, I mean, it really does have to start with you. And then the second thing I'd say is my therapist always says it to me is like fish in a different pond. And I've always like, what the fuck do you mean with your riddles? What do you mean fish in a different pond. But I think what she's saying is the criteria that I had been looking for for so long was just passed down from my parents. It was a scummy pond of values I myself don't value, but it's really hard to get out of those patterns that we build really young, like incredibly difficult. So I think you have to be really clear on like, what are you looking for and why? Is it because you want those things or because your parents wanted those things? Is it because you think that's

what you deserve or is it because that's what your parents showed you that you deserved? You know, like I've been in enough horrible relationships to know that I'll take some real bullshit dating that I would never take at work or from a friend. Like never, never, never, never. But I would take that behavior from a man. And so right now, I'm taking, I'm just on a total break. I'm like quarantine is a gift. I'm, you know, not sick. I don't have kids. I can spend some time with myself, getting good with myself, doing something like a silent meditation retreat. I'm not going to waste it on some dude who like, who like at this moment. I know it's the annoying answer, but it's the real one, which is get good with yourself. The rest will fall in

place. I think the fish in a different pond thing is really interesting too from the perspective of like not only what have your parents taught you that you might want that you might not actually want, but what has society taught you that you might want? What have your friends made you think that you want? Like are you looking for somebody? Like when you said fish in a different pond, I immediately thought of my friends who want, you know, to marry an iBanker or who want to marry somebody who's rich and wears suits and can provide for them. And it's like if they took that, away, who would they find? What kind of personality is necessarily bred by having those specifications? And I don't think it's a bad one, but I think it's worth analyzing how different

things go together and why you're wanting the things that you want, period. Absolutely. I mean, you've got to make sure that what you want lines up with what would actually be good for you. I think a lot of times it can be a very different direction than people would think. Absolutely. And, you know, I had a friend who once said to me, she was like, where are the billionaires who don't cheat on their wives? Like, I want that guy. I was like, wait, in your fantasy, it's like he's got to be a billionaire. He can't just be stable. And why is he already cheating on his wife? Like what, like she was looking for such an alpha, such an ass one. And like, you're starting off wanting an asshole and then surprised when you are in relationships

with people who suck. Well, there's been really interesting studies about how empathy literally decreases with money. And the more money you get, the less empathy you have. Even if you get the money late in life, you've practiced empathy as muscle until then, it's just really hard for you. Even if you say win the lottery, the study will show that there's a study about that, like, you still think you deserved it in some way and then you internalize the fact that other people didn't deserve it and then you start to lose empathy for them and it happens almost universally.

So it's like maybe the billionaire that doesn't cheat on their wife doesn't exist because billionaires don't view other people in the same way as we view other people. Totally. And I'd even, I'd take it a step further and say like, why do you need a billionaire? A billionaire is like a next level. Like I understand I want to date somebody who's in employed. I understand like, great. Like, I don't, I understand I don't want to be the bread winner solely on my own. That I totally get respect. But why do they have to be exceptionally wealthy? Can they be exceptionally generous? This person I'm talking about doesn't need money on top of everything. So it's just, it's an outward facing thing she wants. It's an external shiny object.

And I think a lot of women are in an unspoken competition to have the best mate. They're the best. They're the kindest and they're good looking and they've got money and they've got this. And it's more about like how does it look to their girlfriends than it does, how does it feel to be me and date this person? And that we need to get over because the competition doesn't exist. Your friends barely are thinking about you in those terms because they're so busy with their own goddamn lives.

Nobody's judging you from afar. And if they are like weird. They're not the people that you want to be around. Yeah. And I think that's true for everything. Like I think a lot of times we want the job so that we impress people. We want even the friends. I think sometimes we end up with bad friends because we want the friends that will impress

people, not the friends that are rooted in kindness and make us feel really good. And I think it's one of the most, the easiest ways you can end up going down a life path that doesn't feel satisfying your good is living your life for how it looks rather than how it feels. You have hit the nail on the head. I have given up a life that I think looks impressive. I will be very honest that for many years, that's what I was in pursuit of was external validation to make me worthy. But on the other side, I just know I'm worthy. And I don't need a goddamn other shiny thing to prove the point. I'm good with me and let the cards fall where they may. Like, I burned myself out trying to impress other people. The only good side of that was that

it's just not a driver for me anymore. Like, I don't, I don't care. I think it made putting a memoir out a lot easier because I hope to help people. Like, the number one reason I wrote the book was to make other people feel less lonely. That was my intention. It was not, I didn't ever feel that weird about kind of putting it all out there because I just figured if someone would judge me for trying to be helpful while being honest and like with as much thought as I've put into this, then like I don't really care about their opinion.

Like, I wouldn't want them to be my friend. I wouldn't want them to be in my orbit. I'm doing the best I can. I've got a clear conscience about how I did all this, the process I took to get here. I feel good. I feel good with me. I love that. All right, quick fire. Yeah. What is the best way to spend 20 minutes every day in terms of having a healthier or happier life? Running or exercise or anything that makes you sweat. I thought you were going to say journaling. No. I think probably because in the pandemic, especially when my anxiety is a little high. I must sweat. It's like my natural way to work out my anxiety. Maybe if it wasn't the pandemic, it would probably be journaling. You're right. What's one thing you bought that's made you healthier or happier? What if it was, what if I redeemed it with points? Can that still count? Yeah, that's okay. I redeemed with points of Vitamix, which not only makes a delicious smoothie. And I told you, I'm trying to make the smoothies out of your book, which I'm obsessed with and excited to cook from.

But like, I just feel cool. Like, I have a one cool kitchen appliance, so I feel great. It is, it's an active self-care, I think, too. Yeah. To spend money like that on something that you know will nourish you day and day out. And also, I always tell people this for Vitamix is because more than one person has said Vitamix. you can get a refurbished one on their website for significantly cheaper. It's like it's so expensive, but it's cheaper and they last for like 10 years.

So big fan. It's a big fan. It upgrades your cooking and food is so important, obviously. It's a daily, I mean, literally that is how we nourish ourselves. So yeah. Literally. Yeah. And I think you make that point in the book really well is if you're not literally taking care of

yourself, you can't mentally take care of yourself. Like if you're not exercising, if you're not eating well, if you're not not smoking and not doing drugs, you can't really take care of yourself. Absolutely. So that's important. That also reminds me that I was going to ask you to talk about the LA, New York thing, because I feel like you move to L.A. and you are like, it's so much easier for me to take care of myself here. And I think a lot of people will tell you that you should be able to live whatever life you want to live regardless of where you are. And I am just curious just super briefly what you think about location, the idea that like, oh, if I move to Denver, I could be happy, or if I moved to LA, I could be happy because I could be outside all year or the cost of living

is lower or does that stuff matter or is it actually all internal? Well, I think generally I'd say if then or if when statements are a goddamn recipe for disaster. Like if you hinge your happiness to like, well, if I move, then I'll be happy. Then I would say like, you've got some internal work to do. like it doesn't really matter where you are. But I think these circumstances I was living in New York, which is I am prone to depression and sunlight really is a big deal for me. Like, I need more sunlight. Yeah, that's me. I feel literally like powered by the sun. And am I like, am I just shooting myself in the foot living somewhere where I cannot be powered by the sun? I do feel happier overall living in California for the sun for just sunlight reasons, but

also the circumstances, the circle I was in, sure, maybe I could have found all new friends who didn't drink. And like, and sure, maybe I could have found a culture that wasn't so much about going out. It was just harder. And for my career, it's really more in L.A. than it is in New York. So generally, I'd say it's all about internal. You can be happy anywhere. In my particular case, it has made a big life improvement to be in California. All right. I'll take that. Along those lines, one of my questions is, have you ever been somewhere in the world and

thought the people here really got it right in terms of Levina healthy, happy life? And if so, where was it? Hmm. I think, I want to say Tokyo. I felt like people, you know, which I don't even know is true. I think I was just obsessed with Tokyo and thought they did everything better than everybody else because I know that there's like there are mental health issues in Tokyo so maybe that's a bad answer but I was just like whoa you guys are doing culture at like an 11 like the rest of us are

doing it at a 5 and like everything you make and create and like the food is so delicious and everyone takes such pride in what they're doing so yeah that's the only thing that sticks out but otherwise I've never been somewhere where I was just like wow everybody seems happier here. Have you? I've been places where I feel like it's true. I think for it's, I would like to take pieces of places. Like I think the work life balance of Italy is really appealing, but that comes with it. And I also love the communal living structure. Like I love that people tend to live with grandparents and parents and that type of thing. I also didn't grow up with like a very concrete family unit. So I think that's very appealing. But then I have friends who are Italian and they're like,

you don't feel the same drive to go do things and make things of your own life because of that. And so I think there's, and like, they're like, my grandma lives with me and we annoy the crap out of each other all day. And so I do think there's, you know, pros and cons of all of it. What is, this is the last question. So make it make it good. What is the one mistake that you feel like you learned from the most? And what is one thing that you really feel like you got right? Something you nailed. Okay. One mistake that I made that I learned from the most is probably off the top of my head without really much thought. I think I dated somebody for three years who yelled at me a lot and really treated me really poorly. And I learned from that exactly how I don't want to be treated and exactly what I won't stand to.

for and the mistake I made in that was sticking around as long as I did. Even though, like, he was borderline abusive. It's my responsibility that I stayed and I own that now. And it's made it a lot clearer now, like who to date and not date having dated him. So I'd say that was a mistake, sticking around with him for as long as they did. That was a mistake. And then the second question is, what's one thing I do? nailed it. Something you really got right. I think mending my relationship with my sister,

choosing that as something that really needed to be worked on and putting my ego aside and just owning up to her that I was a dick and that a lot of it was my fault and that if she was willing to come out here with me, you know, I would do everything I could to to, to, our relationship and show her how much I loved her because now we have such a more authentic, honest, real relationship. And it's probably the thing I'm proudest about in my life is my relationship with my sister. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat, Tara. Thank you for having me, Liz. This was awesome. I hope you loved this episode with Tara Schuster. Remember to screenshot it and share your thoughts with me on Instagram. I'm at Liz Moody.

and with Tara, she is at Tara Schuster. Schuster is spelled S-C-H-U-S-T-E-R, and you can find her book by the Effing Lillies, wherever books are sold. If you love the episode, I would so appreciate a rating or a view on iTunes. It makes a huge difference in helping other people find this podcast. And if you were sent this podcast by somebody else, I hope you loved it, and I hope you subscribe and join our little family. All right, have a wonderful day.

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