The Liz Moody Podcast - The Friendship Episode—How To Make (Best!) Friends As An Adult, Deal with Conflict & Friend Breakups, Diversify Your Friend Group & SO MUCH more ft. @broccyourbody & @olive.eeeats, friendship coach @friendforward, and my own BFF

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthy You Together podcast. My name's Liz Moody, and I am a cookbook author and long-time journalist, and I am so excited about today's episode, which is all about friendship. I think we spend a ton of time thinking about relationships and trying to be the best partner possible. And while that's so important, platonic friendships are also incredibly important and really under-discussed. This episode is a celebration of friendship and also is jam-packed with advice about friendship, including how to make friends as an adult, how to know when it's time to break up with a friend, and how to actually go about doing it, including literally an exact script with what to say, how to be a better long-distance friend, how to diversify your friend group,

Starting point is 00:00:42 how to deal with friends in different life seasons, and so, so much more. I wanted to come at this from all different angles, so we'll kick it off with one of my favorite friendships to follow on Instagram, Olivia and Carissa from Brock Your Body and Olive Eats. Olive Eats, I never know how to pronounce it. She's like three E's. All of E's. And then I have invited on a friendship coach, Danielle Bayard Jackson, of Friend Forward,

Starting point is 00:01:07 to get a professional take on all of your friendship questions. Finally, I had on my personal BFF, Gretchen Littaker, to talk about our friendship and share some of Gretchen's signature sage wisdom. We would all love to hear what you're thinking and feeling as you listen to the episode. So definitely screenshot and tag us. I'm at Liz Moody and the rest of my guests share their handles throughout the episode. This is one of my favorite episodes that I have ever done about one of my all-time favorite topics, and I hope you love it as much as I do. Let's get to it. All right, Olivia and Krista. Thank you so

Starting point is 00:01:41 much for joining me on the podcast today. Thanks for having us. Can you guys just introduce yourself really quickly and kind of say what you do, who you are? Krista. Sure. You know where to go first? Yeah, girl. Okay, I am Karissa Stanton. I have the Instagram and blog, Brock Your Body. It is a healthy recipe and lifestyle blog. So I like to share my favorite recipes. A lot are, you know, classic comfort foods that I like to make a little bit healthier and more nourishing for your body. And I kind of just share the ins and outs of my fun, crazy life being a single gal over here in L.A. So yeah, that's pretty much me. Awesome. And Krista? Or, and Olivia? People get us confused all the time. I'm Olivia Noseda, and I'm the woman behind Olive Eats, which is an Instagram and blog, kind of exploring food, lifestyle, and wellness as a whole, really just kind of redefining self-care for the modern person. And so I share food, but also a lot of my feelings, as we like to tell people. It's a feelings blog.

Starting point is 00:02:54 It's definitely. That's like a great way to describe it. I feel like it's a, you're a cancer, aren't you? Or Pisces, sorry, Pisces. Yeah. There's two that I associate with crying all the time and it's Pisces and cancer. And it makes sense. Water signs. So can you guys tell me, you guys became friends relatively recently? Can't relate. Can you tell me about how that happened. Yeah, we're coming up on our one-year anniversary. Oh, no, we've met. We've known each other for a year. Our one-year anniversary is pretty funny. I was the, I mean, Kiss, if you want to chime in. I call her Kiss.

Starting point is 00:03:30 I think that's what most of your, like, close friends call you. Yeah. Kiss or Brock, or what are my themes? So we met at an event that I showed up stoned to. And totally underdressed. I was in, like, massive Doc Martins and a sweatshirt. And I just looked, I personally thought, looked so cool, but walked in and just like, wasn't really the vibe. And I remember Carissa was in

Starting point is 00:03:57 like this leopard outfit and everyone had told me, you're really going to get along with Carissa, you guys are going to love each other. And I remember looking at her page and I was like, oh, she seems cool, but I was a little bit intimidated by her. I'm like, I'm a pretty classic nerd. I think I like maybe come off cooler than I actually am. And so I went up to you or you went up to me and we introduced ourselves to each other. We're like, hey, what's up? How are you? and you were super nice. You were like, yeah, like, we should, you know, cook together some time. And I was like, uh, for sure, like, cool.

Starting point is 00:04:29 So then we do our own thing at the party. And then I'm leaving the party with so much confidence. And in front of the entire, like, it's a very small room we're in. And there's like, it was it, it was at beaming. Like, it was like a health and wellness event. Like, it was very small and intimate. And Olivia is leaving and she looks to me and she's like, bye, Carissa. let's smoke sometimes.

Starting point is 00:04:53 What did you say? I was like, yo, hit me up if you want to blaze sometimes. Yeah. And everybody was like, and she was like, all right,

Starting point is 00:05:01 for sure. And everyone just looked over. Like, I walk in late. I leave early. Chris is so nice. I fully embarrassed both of us at this point. And I was like, all right,

Starting point is 00:05:11 well, she's never going to follow me on Instagram and we're never going to be friends and I'm just going to take the hit. Had you guys talked about like getting high together at the party? Was it literally out of nowhere? really smoke. Like I was like, okay. Or like, is that this is what we have to do together? Like, why can't we just hang out? Why do we have to blaze? One of our mutual friends lives in the same

Starting point is 00:05:32 apartment building as me. And she was at the gym one day and my apartment faced the gym. And she saw me smoking a joint on my balcony. And I thought she had like, for some reason was like, oh, she probably told Carissa that I smoke. And I'm sure Carissa like gets down. And then I was high. So I was just totally no filter. Anyway, it was. It was embarrassing. So embarrassed. Thank you. Yeah, it was super embarrassing for me. But then, let's speed this up a little because I feel like this is like the least interesting part of our friendship. But yeah, we met at a, um, then we like saw each other at this Valentine's Day, Gallant's Day thing and we like totally hit it off. We found out we're both from Orange County. I thought she was from Portland because she lived there for a while, but we found out we have a bunch

Starting point is 00:06:15 of mutual friends from high school and we just like totally hit it off ever since. And I, think we became super, super close in like, what was it? Like May? We both had like little quarantine flings and we both broke up with them at the same time or like two weeks before. I got dumped. Carissa broke up with hers. Olivia got dumped and I remember being like, oh my God, that sucks.

Starting point is 00:06:37 Like my relationship was just going so well. Bummer for her. And then two weeks later I was like, wait, I don't like this guy anymore. I broke up with him for you, but okay. Yeah, Olivia literally texted him. This isn't, that's really embarrassing. But Olivia literally formulated the text because the reason why we do get along so well is because Olivia is very emotional and she has a lot of feelings and I'm kind of the opposite. So we kind of balance each other out really well.

Starting point is 00:07:01 You're emotional. I'm more emotional. I'm getting better. You're sensitive and you don't, you have a guard up. And I think it takes a special person to kind of chip away at the little ice that surrounds your core. But for some reason, I just melted that shit. and we are and we're better for it. But she helps me not be too wordy.

Starting point is 00:07:25 You say that like for some reason you melted that shit, but I think literally the idea of making not only a friend, but a really close, like a best level friend where the ice is fully melted, you can be completely yourself as a grown up is a scary prospect for people, both from the like first meeting somebody and putting yourself out there. But I also think a lot of people have the idea that, everybody has all their friendship sorted and that you look kind of like a loser if you're like, well, I want to make a new friend. And the other person might be like, well, I have a zillion friends.

Starting point is 00:07:56 Why do I need you? So I'm curious how you guys sort of broke through those barriers. Do you want to go or do you want me to go? I mean, do you have an answer for this? Yeah. I guess for me, I wasn't necessarily looking for new friends. I know Carissa had just moved to L.A., so it may be different for her. I'm very much like an independent person. I was extremely kind of cool with where I was at. But I think for me personally, I just feel intuitively when I meet people that, oh, this person, somebody I can spend my energy and time on.

Starting point is 00:08:33 And when I met Chris, I didn't feel that way at first. But then when we really got to know each other, I slowly started to feel like she would be somebody that, I don't know, that I could really enjoy my time with. And I think what happened was I kind of reached out and was like, hey, I saw you went to this bagel place. I'm going to go grab a bagel. Like, do you just want to meet up really quick and grab the bagel? And I think within that like our session of us sitting there looking truly ravenous together at this sidewalk cafe, I was just kind of like, oh, this is someone I can hang out with. So I think for me, there wasn't, I didn't put pressure on myself to be like, I'm going to make this friend or I need to be friends with her. her. It just kind of happened really naturally. But I don't know if you feel the same way.

Starting point is 00:09:19 Yeah. No, it was definitely very organic and natural. I moved to LA, so I was new to the city, but I still had like a good amount of friends here and I wasn't necessarily looking. I mean, I'm always looking to make new friends is the thing. I'm like, I think that there's, I mean, I have a ton of friends from elementary school, high school, college. Like they all kind of just stuck with me. But I'm always looking to meet new friends. because there's always like you learn so much from these people and they make you so much of a better person. And I think that, you know, meeting Olivia being, what, 28 years old,

Starting point is 00:09:56 making a new best friend that we act like we're literally like 14 together. Like it's insane. It's just like it's so fun. And I think that, you know, you can be comfortable with the friends that you have now, but it's always so nice to go out on a limb and meet new people because it just makes life so much more interesting. I feel like it's the same advice I use for dating. When I was online dating back in L.A., my number one advice to myself was kind of like go into these dates with exactly what Carissa said, just knowing that you're going to learn something from every single person you go out with. And whether it's a really bad first date or a really good first date or, you know, you never see the person again. You're always going to learn something new. And so I think when it comes to friendships, it's kind of the same thing when you're an adult. It's this idea of like, like you're kind of going on a first friend date.

Starting point is 00:10:47 And it can be awkward. And so when you allow yourself grace to kind of mess up and be yourself, it's really, really humbling. And I think too, you know, you really can only make best friends with somebody who sees you as your true self. And I think now as 28 year olds,

Starting point is 00:11:07 we kind of know those people much better. And so I think when you can stick to being that authentic version of yourself and someone accepts you for that, it's so easy to kind of fall into a really, really cool groove and best friendship. And I think that's really what happened for us. Yeah, I was going to ask how you think, I think a lot of times people have like those first friend dates or they meet somebody at an event, but then transitioning to like taking little trips together and really being able to FaceTime whenever and really being like best friends

Starting point is 00:11:37 is a little trickier. I think what you started to say about being your authentic self and bringing your authentic self two things is probably part of it. But I'm curious if you guys have any advice more esoteric or super practical down to earth about building that intimacy, especially when you don't have 12 years of sitting next to each other in school or something to build on. Just get it out. Just fart in front of each other immediately. I feel like that's it. Just like quick little two and then you block nothing else. Nothing else left. It's good relationship advice too. Right? I know. No, I think.

Starting point is 00:12:13 I would say that like being confident in yourself is just such a tool to being successful in everything that you do in life. And I know that like it's so much easier said than done. Like building confidence is such a long and hard road. But I think that if you're just so yourself and you know, you're putting your best self forward and you are, you know, genuinely trying to not only just like meet friends but help improve the lives of others like you know I'm always willing to like help somebody out and listen and you know really I really give my friends my all and I think that that's something that's really important um when you are trying to you know take kind of an acquaintance to more of like a good friend level is to just kind of like just be there

Starting point is 00:13:10 for them ask them how their day is and people. people love talking about themselves. I love talking about themselves. That's why I'm like doing all these podcasts. Like I just want to ramble all day about my life. I'm just kidding. But it's the thing is is like I think just genuinely trying to be there for people and listen to them and, you know, just try and help them out in any way that you can is kind of more rare than you would think. Like, there's so many people out there. I've gone, I mean, I've, I've had some friends, you know, where you kind of just like, you stop and thinking, you're like, oh, wow, like, I've done so much for you. And I always have, like, helped you out during your hard times. And, you know, here I am now,

Starting point is 00:13:50 kind of struggling a little bit. And, like, you don't really seem to care. So I think just being a good listener and, you know, trying to, you know, genuinely make somebody's day better can really take you being just acquaintance or kind of a friend to, you know, being somebody who's a best friend or a someone that you go to with all of your issues and whatnot. So I feel like, yeah. I think that's like amazing advice. Like I think it's sometimes we focus too much on like, oh, I wish I had a friend that did this for me or was there for me in this way.

Starting point is 00:14:23 And I don't think we. And even with partners too, I think sometimes it's like, oh, I wish they were doing this. I wish they were doing this. But like you're not putting it out there. So why would you get it back? It feels simplistic to be like, be a good friend. But I actually do think it's really overlooked. I also think too the idea of allowing for that period of awkwardness because I remember there was one time where I had called Carissa and I was like, hey, let's catch up.

Starting point is 00:14:48 And then she was like, sure, why not? And we sat on the phone and we didn't really know each other. And we kind of talked about like really random things. And I was like, well, how's your relationship going? And she's like, how's yours going? And it was kind of awkward. It was bad. And then I was like, all right, well, I'm going to go.

Starting point is 00:15:06 And she's like, okay, well, I'll talk. And so it was kind of one of those like very rocky little phone calls, but it's exactly what Carissa said. We were just putting time and effort into building that friendship. And I think sometimes as women, it's really easy to be like, okay, I should meet this person. They should be my best friend. They should know everything about me. They should want to like really indulge in my life. And maybe have patience, you know, have patience with the people you meet, really start to. to take note of do I want this person as a big figure in my life and slowly start to kind of like lubricate those friendship wheels by having phone calls, having text messages, sliding into their DMs, making inside jokes with one another before you maybe talk every day. I don't think it needs to go zero to 100. Actually, Krista and I talked about this, that's kind of how you crash and burn in a friendship or relationship sometimes. I think for us personally, we got into this really nice flow where we were like, okay, we might crash and burn. So maybe let's just like chat a little bit here and there. And I think it's about really allowing yourself that grace to be your authentic self and have those kind of

Starting point is 00:16:23 awkward moments with that person and allow for the for the ease, ease into best friendship. You know, we don't need to go. It doesn't need to be one week we were never friends and next week we're having sleepovers. And sometimes I think that can be, you know, we get so hard on ourselves because we feel like, okay, well, the two weeks period is up and we should be best friends and we're not there yet. That's immaculate advice as well. That's really good. So you guys went recent, I know it's not like a long-term thing. And Olivia, I don't even want to begin to try to like guess what you're doing with your life long-term. But you seem to at least, the recent months have moved to New York and you've been in New York for a while. And I think

Starting point is 00:17:08 something I often hear asked is how to make long distance friendships work. And even like during COVID times, even close friendships are sort of long distance these days in their own ways. So I'm curious what you guys have done since you've been. I always forget how big the country is, but like three to five thousand miles apart. Three. It's really sad. She left me and we're actually not friends anymore. So this is kind of awkward. wordless because we're things are not great between us. No, I did leave her. Yeah, she did leave me, but we actually talk, I mean, we talk every single day for sure.

Starting point is 00:17:48 We talk every day. It's hard to, it's hard to say like, oh, we talk way more now than we did before because we were literally in a relationship in L.A. I mean, I spent every day with her, but we do have still a very, very close friendship. And I think it goes back to what Carissa was saying. It's putting that effort in, calling the other person up, hey, good morning. How are you doing? What's up with you? Or even just sending a random link to something funny and just getting the conversation going. Can I ask, Chris, though? You said, like, jokingly, she left me and I'm mad at her, whatever. But I genuinely do have this, like, vibe sometimes when my friend, like one of my friends moved to

Starting point is 00:18:30 Australia and it was clearly the right decision for her life. And I wouldn't be making my life decisions around her, but I like kind of wanted her to make life decisions around me. And I was like almost offended that she like would think about leaving. And I get like a little like, you know, chess, chess playery where I try to like move all the pieces of my friend's lives so that they can suit my own. Totally. How do you like move through, I don't know, like the resentment or the desire to control that? Totally. Well, I will say I, of course, went through it with Olivia, but my friends went through the same thing with me when I left San Diego when I moved to L.A. So, like, I totally get it.

Starting point is 00:19:10 And I know that, like, I knew that I needed to do it and whatever. But they were totally like, what really? You're going to move. Like, you're really leaving us. So it kind of like, that definitely gave me some more insight into the whole situation with Olivia because I'm like, okay, I totally understand and I've been there. But yeah, of course, like, Olivia and I, you know, every single day, we're living our best lives together. And then all of a sudden it's like she's leaving and it's like of course that's hard on me. Like of course. I mean, it's she's this isn't news to her.

Starting point is 00:19:39 Like I was we were both really, really upset when she first left. And it's kind of like it was kind of like going through a breakup. And I've never been dumped before actually. And I feel like this is the closest I've ever felt to like being not being dumped. But like kind of. I'm like, oh my God. Like she just like left me like what's wrong with you know what we were doing? doing in LA yada yada but there's obviously so much more to Olivia's move that you know isn't

Starting point is 00:20:05 my place to talk about she can you know explain more but I totally understand way she did it and I'm so happy for her that she went and I think that um I mean she's a grown adult she's she knows what she's doing and of course I'm sad and I want her back with me but I think that um you know you kind of just have to realize that everyone everyone's their own person and regardless of the decisions that they make, you just have to be there for your friends no matter what and support them, no matter what they do. Well, and I think it goes back to the confidence thing from the beginning too. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:42 I do think it almost brings up this feelings of like, am I not enough for this person to want to stay for that they would like prioritize something else above this friendship that clearly impacts both of our lives so much? Totally. And I think it kind of goes back to like if you feel like you're enough in yourself, then it can be hurtful but not like devastating maybe in the same way absolutely i think i mean i feel like confidence is the key to anything in life like i as far as like my career my friendships my relationships all of it wouldn't would not be as strong as it is without having that level of confidence because you know

Starting point is 00:21:16 whether it's a friendship or a relationship or like you know how our jobs are like people just tearing us down every single day it's like you have to have that certain level of confidence just to you know be successful in really any aspect of life. So yeah, that's definitely such a huge part in it because there's been so many times like where, you know, you do start to kind of doubt yourself. But, you know, going back to just knowing that you're enough and you're doing your best is all you can really, all you can really do at this point. Olivia, do you have any thoughts on just sort of that, that whole situation with moving and all of that? I know, I'm the, I'm the, well, I'm always the dumpy. I'm always getting dumped.

Starting point is 00:21:55 So this was a huge change for me personally. It's a good role reversal for both of you. I need to get dumped at some point. Chris is the cooler friend. That's for sure. And we're both aware of that. No, you know, I think how Carissa explained it, it's funny. I think that's kind of the hallmark of our relationship is that Chris and I are both very emotional people. And we do show our emotions in different ways, but we're able to really see the other person. That being said, I don't think Carissa and I are, we're sensitive. to a point, but I think our sensitivities lie in the same areas. For me, I don't think I would have been able to come to New York without Chris's support. And when I had started toying with the idea,

Starting point is 00:22:37 she was the first person I kind of ran it by. And she was the first person to say, no, you have to go. You have to do this. And I knew at that point, I was like, this is a true friend. This is a friend who knows that we're going to be friends, regardless of the distance, regardless of how far apart we are. But she knows that for me, too, it's not like I was moving to New York to like this big gaggle of girls and like, you know, fully in love. Like I wasn't fully in love when I came to New York. I really was coming for myself and by myself. And I needed my friends at home to support me. And it's really easy for a friend to say, you know, this doesn't work for my life. I'm going to be individualistic about this and I'm going to say no like I'm pissed off you shouldn't be doing this

Starting point is 00:23:26 my move was easier 10fold because carissa was I'm so excited for you I'm so ready for you to do this call me every day how's it going this is going to be great and that's the type of support that friends need to be for one another and it's the same thing you know with me being here and her being there she has things that are going on in her life that are super super super exciting and I'm trying to do as much as I can to be supportive 3,000 miles away. And it doesn't, to me, like, okay, distance makes a heart grow fonder, but I don't think, and you can speak on this kiss, but like, I don't even think that distance has really had that much of an impact on our relationship besides the fact that we can't sit on the couch and,

Starting point is 00:24:13 you know, be stupid together. We still do it over the phone and we still support each other in the ways that we need to, especially with both of our careers really kind of in this, like, we're in like both really heavy flow states with our careers and we do the same thing. So it's really amazing to be able to support one another, congratulate one another, and bounce ideas off of each other. And that didn't end just because I got on a plane and came here and, you know, fell in love or whatever. I haven't found a friend in New York in the last four months that's even come close to my friendship

Starting point is 00:24:50 with Carissa and she knows that. And I think that it's not that I'm not looking, but I mean, you know, COVID hard times, very difficult to make friends. But it is like we both realize that we found something very special. And I also think that if you open your heart to everybody, if you open your heart to, you know, whoever you want to be friends with, that friendship will come to you. I think it's really about opening your heart and allowing yourself to be supportive and want to be supported. And that comes with having confidence in yourself and really being authentic. So, you know, I feel bad every day. I always apologize.

Starting point is 00:25:34 Or like when I was, I knew I was going to stay for a little bit longer. Like I'm staying through February now. And I called her the other day. I was like, so I wanted to let you know that there's been some new developments. And she's like, I know you're staying longer, whatever. But when I come home, it'll be that nothing will change. No. Right?

Starting point is 00:25:55 Right. Who knows? Really? So you guys mentioned that you're in the same career generally. Is there ever any jealousy between you two over that or dating stuff or anything like that? Well, yeah, Carissa's fully jealous that I have a boyfriend. And I'm fully jealous that she makes so much more money than me. That's hilarious because it's so true.

Starting point is 00:26:24 And that's the thing is we talk about it. You know, we talk, I think that's one of the coolest parts of our friendship is we're very honest about how we're feeling and we're very honest about knowing that like we're not necessarily in the same place in life right now. We both kind of have things that the other person wants and we also don't have, you know, it's like this give and take, but to be able to be honest about it and sit there and talk about it and, you know, I'm like, well, I can't wait to ride your coattails and you can fly me to the Cayman Islands when this is all over. And, you know, it's just, it's funny. It's just like, it is what it is.

Starting point is 00:27:01 We definitely roast each other. And again, like, I know we keep going back to confidence, but it's like, it's true. Like, you know, we, we both are like very confident and comfortable with ourselves. So it's like, I am very comfortable, you know, admitting like, yeah, I fucking hate Olivia's boyfriend sometimes like he pisses me off. I'm like, ugh, why did he have to come along? Like, this sucks. But obviously at the end of day, I'm so happy for her. But it's just funny that we're able to like, you know, voice these concerns and like,

Starting point is 00:27:29 we make it lighthearted because it doesn't really need to be anything more than that. But if we had any sort of jealousy surrounding our jobs, I don't think we'd be able to be friends because both of us are getting new deals every single day. both of us are doing different things every single day. And it's like, Krista calls me and it's like, hey, got this, you know, partnership. And I'm like, hell yeah, this is amazing. I'm so excited for you. What are you doing?

Starting point is 00:27:54 And it's the exact same thing when I get something. And we don't sit there. We're not like, I got this and I made this much money and blah, blah, blah. It's like, this is something that I'm doing and I'm super excited about it. And we support one another and that. And that's just how it goes in our friendship. I mean, there's no, there's, I don't think there's any legitimate jealousy. or competition at all, at all.

Starting point is 00:28:18 We've mentioned confidence as like the backbone of pretty much everything, but especially being a good friend. I would love to know just kind of in brief what both of your tips or like if there was a moment in your life that made you confident. You guys both seem unbelievably confident and it's an enviable quality. And I'm just curious how you got there briefly or anything somebody could learn from that. I take a lot of like selfies in the mirror. I stare at myself all day every day.

Starting point is 00:28:48 That's like something that I honestly people sleep on as far as building confidence. Like, because, you know, every once in a while you get those pictures where you're like, do I really look like that? And sometimes it's fun to kind of like dress up and like take pictures of yourself when you look really cute and just kind of reflect back on them when you're, you know, not feeling too hot. I don't really know. I feel like I've kind of always been a confident person. I had really good friendships growing up just like from when I was a kid. So I think that that really helped build my confidence. I don't know.

Starting point is 00:29:23 That's like a good question. I need to like think back more on like how it all happened. But I don't know. You're very confident by nature. I think you are. Yeah, but I'm trying to think if like there's anything like I can say that like, you know, I don't know, that would help people and stuff. Let me come in with the emotional stuff.

Starting point is 00:29:44 Okay, one thing that really quickly, I will say that when you see competent people in action, you're like, wow, like, they could literally, like, and I think about like guys too. I'm like, if a guy is just confident, like, he's hot. So it's like, you have to understand that it's the same thing with, with you and yourself. Like, you just kind of have, like, fake it till you make it is my motto.

Starting point is 00:30:06 Like, nobody knows what they're doing, like, clearly. and you kind of just have to like if you're confident and just do it and go for it and realize that like this is your one life to live and whatever then you're then you'll be good that's good that's good advice cool so take it away here we go here we go everybody bring out the tissues um so i was bullied in middle school and i did not have good friendships here we go really i think everyone's going to get off this podcast and be like, this girl has been dumped, she was bullied. No, but here's the thing for me personally, that why I'm confident. You got to get out of your comfort zone and you have to relinquish shame and fear. And I think that I from an early age was kind of given this opportunity by being, you know, bullied by kids and not having a lot of friends where I had to be in this space of I cannot give a shit what people think about me.

Starting point is 00:31:11 I actually don't have room to do that right now because I have nothing to lose. So I might as well just be myself. Then I think it's about putting that into action. What can you do to really get yourself to a place where you don't care what people think about you? And for me, that was getting on stage. And that was doing improv and doing theater. And I think there's ways that you can do that as an adult.

Starting point is 00:31:33 You know, you can join. I'm sure there's like virtual improv. groups right now where it is the most terrifying thing to do improv on stage in front of people. It's terrifying and you fuck up 100% of the time. And those are the times where I've gotten off stage and been like, I am so unbelievably embarrassed and now I have nothing else to lose. And the confidence just for me slowly built. And I think that goes back to, you know, the initial story of Chris and I meeting each other. I walk into small wellness gatherings like 100% myself unapologetically because I think that most people have seen that I just don't have

Starting point is 00:32:13 time to really care about what people think of me as long as I'm being a kind person, a genuine person and a good person and being nice to everybody. I think that's where that confidence really stems from. And those are the things I think if you switch your mindset to these are the things that people are looking for, being calm and confident and kind, and a good person, then I don't think you have to really worry about anything else. And I think that's a bit, that's not a really tangible, it's not a great tangible piece of advice. I think it's more of a feeling. But go join in a improv class. Everyone's going to sign up, everyone's going to sign up for improv classes. Maybe I should start teaching improv.

Starting point is 00:32:54 Maybe that should be like my, my, I would take it like a feelings based improv, like how to get in touch with all your feelings based improv. My nightmare. Literally, Carissa is. That's like my dream in life. I'm like, that sounds so amazing. All right, well, I would love to just end this on. I would love to hear what you guys love about each other. It can be one or two things.

Starting point is 00:33:15 It can be a quick story that illustrates it, but just like something that comes to mind when I say, Olivia, what do you love about Carissa? Krista, what do you love about Olivia? Okay. I love that, I mean, whenever I think of our friendship, I literally just think of us, like, sitting on the couch, like, just laughing, like, about nothing.

Starting point is 00:33:32 That's, I think, laughing is, like, my favorite thing to do. ever. So the fact that we laugh so much together is just my favorite thing ever. And that like Olivia is just so down to do whatever. Like we've done so many fun trips. We did a trip to Ohio and like we just drank wine and just ran around and like had the best time ever with each other and like got into freaking trouble. And like, I don't know. We're just like such dorks. And, um, yeah, she's also like this kindest, sweetest person ever. And she genuinely is like so sweet. So sweet. and like protective over me, which I love too. Like she's always like making sure that like I'm doing the best I can and that people are

Starting point is 00:34:12 treating me right. And you know, we, we, I don't know, we're just two peas in a pod. What can I say? Every time we get a moment, I like stop. I'm like, yeah, gay, make a joke. Yay, you would go. Oh, well, what do I love about, Krista? There are too many things for me to say.

Starting point is 00:34:32 But, you know, in the same vein, it's the idea. that Carissa's the friend that seventh grade me sitting alone with like a Beatles lunchbox on the freaking curb of middle school just wished for. And at 28 years old, if someone had come up to me in seventh grade and been like, you're going to be fine and you're going to have a friend that's going to let you just be your freaking weirdest at every moment of every day, I would have probably just cried. And sometimes I think Chris and I, you know, we cry thinking about our friendship because it is it is that cool and that authentic and that wonderful to be able to be really, really weird and dorky together, but also to be moving through life as adults and to be accomplishing and achieving milestones and supporting each other along the way. And that's that's really for me what, what means so much.

Starting point is 00:35:32 I love that. If people wanted to follow along with your friendship more, follow along with your lives and your work, where's the best place to find you both? At Brock Your Body for Carissa. Go follow her. At Olive Eats. What's how many E's three? E. I like to pronounce it with all of it.

Starting point is 00:35:52 Yeah. Olive. 3 E's Eats. And I'm Brock. B-R-O-C-E-E-B-R-C, your body. Wonderful. Well, thank you both for taking the time to share your life. lovely friendship with us.

Starting point is 00:36:04 Liz, thanks for having us. Good seeing you. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. I have such an exciting product to share with you today. One of my all-time favorite brands, Garden of Life, just launched apple cider vinegar gummies, and they are amazing. First of all, they taste so good. Zach and I have started storing ours on top of the fridge because otherwise we will

Starting point is 00:36:27 much on the entire bottle in a single day. But more importantly, they're great for you. Each gummy contains organic apple cider vinegar with 5% acetic acid, which is the part that's responsible for all of the health benefits. The apple cider vinegar that they use is fully unrefined and fermented, originating from the mother. There's also no gelatin, so all of the vegan members of my H.T. fam can enjoy them too, and they're certified organic and gluten-free and non-GMO project verified. I love the original ones and the probiotic version, which also has 2 billion CFU of probiotics.

Starting point is 00:37:01 You can eat them pretty much any time, but my favorite way to take them is about 30 minutes before meals, especially heavier ones like pasta. I found that it makes the biggest difference in my digestion. They're also super supportive for your immune system. And I know I already mentioned that they taste really good, but they taste really good. I'm almost nervous for you to try them. You are going to be hooked. You can find the gummies at health food stores near you on Amazon or by using the link in the show notes to visit Garden of Life.com.

Starting point is 00:37:31 grab a bottle or two and come back and tell me what you think. Now, let's get back to the episode. All right, Danielle, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Can you start off by just explaining, I know you're a friendship coach, but what does that mean? Yeah, I know, right. People are always like, oh, that's cute. And I'm like, no, it's a real thing. No, so I help women with their issues concerning their platonic relationships, with other women. And I know it sounds bizarre at first because no, it's not common. But if you think about it these days, you can get a coach for anything. So why not for support in one of the most important relationships you'll ever have? So my top main issues that women come to me for is,

Starting point is 00:38:19 you know, making friends either as a new mom or when you move to a new city or navigating difficult conversations in a friendship or how to get beyond the grief of a breakup with a friend. And so it's been nice to work in this space and have women trust me with some of the greatest issues on their hearts. How did you become a friendship expert? So I was actually a high school English teacher for six years. And I had, you know, when I was teaching 17 and 18 year olds, and so I made the mistake of dismissing their complaints as like teenage stuff, you know, when the girls would come to me after school or between classes. But then I got into public relations. And I noticed that when I'm talking to women who are business women at the top of their

Starting point is 00:39:00 game, they're having friendship issues too. A lot of times for career women, it's not having any friends because they're so focused on, you know, climbing the ladder at work. And so that's when I realized, oh, this is, this is a thing in every season of life. And that's when I got the certification to get the technical skills to coach. And then I just started researching on my own studying psychologists who specifically work in friendship, female friendship, and did research for about a year, wrote a book, And so it's just been kind of like a personal obsession that has turned into this whole thing. And now I'm glad that people are finally like, okay, it's a thing. I accept it. Yeah. I think it's so important. And I love that you're spotlighting the importance of platonic friendships because I do think there's probably 40 million dating books and not nearly as many about friendship. I know. I know. There's so like if you need support with mom life or, you know, marriage, there's so much. But what do you do when you're having?

Starting point is 00:40:00 having these issues with your friends. Who do you go to? And so, yeah, I'm glad that we're starting to have the conversation. So I'm going to pepper you with a zillion questions about friendship from myself and from my audience. So I hope you're ready. I feel like you are. You look very prepared to me. I'm so ready. Let's do it. So what's the number one thing that people get wrong about being a good friend? That you can ride out on your emotions and your history and that you don't have to invest any time. So a lot of women will be, oh, we've been friends for 10 years. Oh, we've and don't think it requires effort. That would be the single greatest thing I'd like us to change our mentality.

Starting point is 00:40:36 It does require effort. And conflict is normal. Conflict is normal. Okay, so that's interesting. Let's talk about that conflict. I think a lot of people don't know how much conflict is normal and how to resolve conflict when it comes up. So maybe talk about what to do when you disagree with a friend's life choices, like how,

Starting point is 00:40:59 So if they're dealing with COVID differently, if they have different political opinions, if they have a partner that you hate, what do we do about those types of things? Yeah. So that actually emerged as my number one inquiry, especially with last summer and all that transpired thin. You know, we're on different ends of the spectrum politically and you have issues of racial injustice that are now front and center and you've got COVID. And so a lot of our differing values emerged and you can't look away. And so we're looking at our friends like, I'm sorry, who are you. you and what did you just say? And so a lot of us are grappling with, I see my friends differently. That was a hot topic for me over the past couple months. And so I always advise this. It's a matter of two things if you're on two different pages and you disagree. One is can that thing be contained with boundaries? So if she's saying something and it's like, oh, that makes me feel gross when she says that, is it something that you can say, listen, can we just take that topic off the table? Because every time you bring it up, it makes me feel weird. And if everybody can agree to it, great.

Starting point is 00:41:56 If she feels like she's being hindered by that and we're walking on eggshells, well, then yeah, now that's something to look at. But at all points, we should be trying to keep the friendship going. So how can we contain this? How can we make sure everybody's clear on each other's boundaries and move forward as friends? The other thing to keep in mind is, is it a matter of identity? So, you know, for me as a black woman, it's going to be, I can't extract my blackness from who I am. So if I have friends of any race, but if I have friends and I feel like I have to minimize that or not talk about certain things, or you're going to be, I can't extract my blackness from who I am. So if I have friends and I feel like I have friends and I feel like I have to minimize that or not talk about certain things or, or you're your beliefs are threatening to who I am and my people, that's a matter of identity. So it's going to be hard to just be like, agree to disagree. And so, you know, as much as you can try to salvage the friendship despite those differences. But if it gets to the point where you feel like it's pressing against your boundaries or threatening to who you are, then yeah, maybe reassess the future of the relationship. So for you, as a black woman, if somebody came to and was like, no, no, all lives matter. Would that be an identity issue where it would press it too far and you would say maybe I'm going to reevaluate this. Yes. And also when we talk about like cutting people off, that can look a lot of different ways. So maybe I'm still civil and maybe if we all have a brunch, you know, I go. But mentally I have to recategorize you. And we can't probably experience platonic intimacy and closeness because you don't see, value, appreciate, understand who I am

Starting point is 00:43:18 fundamentally. And in my life, my son's life, my family's lives, you can't be like, oh, well, Danielle, they like you, but I feel this way. The two are connected. And so for me, we can still be civil. And if we all go to brunch in a group, that's great. But in my mind, mentally, I know that I can't be vulnerable with you or maybe respect certain ideals that you have. And so maybe, quote unquote, friendship looks a little different between us because we'll never be able to be as close as I'd like us to be because of those beliefs. Is it worth trying to have that conversation? Like I'm thinking about people have very different approaches to COVID in my life or people have different political beliefs. And

Starting point is 00:43:56 and I feel like I'd like to talk about it, even though we're getting information from different sources or whatever. Is it just like hitting your head against the wall and setting yourself up for failure to try to address it? Or is there a way to do so that could be productive? There's totally a productive way. And who better than your friends, you know, to have that conversation with people you love? You know, they have your best interests at heart. I'm not trying to attack you. I think the one mistake we make when we have differing opinions is we are set. We are hell-bent on making them see where we're coming from. And they are intent on the same thing. We're not going to get anywhere. And I recently read that one of the ways to upend a person's thinking about something is to question them in a way that makes them think twice about the evidence upon which they've built their beliefs. So, you know, well, what happened in your life to make you think that? Or where did you get that from? Hmm. Okay. Well, so-and-so told you that. I mean, isn't he a part of this group? So helping them unpack what is the ground upon which you have built? these beliefs and to almost exercise an attitude of curiosity. Like, I'm trying to understand you.

Starting point is 00:45:00 Hmm, that's interesting. Now, where did you get that? Uh-huh. To help them see, I want to understand you. And I need you to really think about how you came to this belief. People tend to be more willing to entertain an alternative perspective. And is it okay to just say, like, if they're like, well, I got it from this source and you're like, well, I don't agree with that source. is it okay to just be like, oh, that's interesting and walk away? Or that's where I feel like I get into it. And I'm like, well, that's not repeatable. And what about this? And then I drive myself crazy. Yeah, it is really hard. And that's why I said, you know, what are the boundaries? Is it something where you both enjoy having these discussions? Is it something where you feel like you're both growing and learning and expanding into these conversations are fruitful?

Starting point is 00:45:42 But if it's something where, and this is what I'm noticing with a lot of us, you're starting to see your friend differently. And you find that like, God, I don't think I have as much respect. for you because you just the way you think. I think it's okay to try not to be judgmental, but at the same time, if it's something where you don't respect the person, well, if we take, you know, the details out of it, one fundamental necessity of friendship is I respect you. Like, we don't have to see the world exactly the same, but I respect you. So if it's at the point where it's kind of pushing beyond the way you can have respect for them, you know, again, try to find a way to be civil. But yeah, I totally see how that would kind of string.

Starting point is 00:46:20 the fabric upon which you've built your friendship. How much do you think your friend should reflect a similar worldview and be kind of similar to you in a lot of ways versus expanding your bubble, being more diverse coming from different perspectives and backgrounds? I think all that's really important. One thing I would emphasize is that I think one mistake we make as women, and this is why I like focusing on female friendship because we are different and unique. But is a lot of times we try to get all the things from one person.

Starting point is 00:46:50 And I think that's where we set ourselves up for disappointment. So yes, I'll probably experience more closeness with people who generally see the world the same way I do. Like we're, we have more, you know, capacity to to get close because we're bonding over that and, and we're connected in that way. For those who I'm like, wait, how do you, how could you even fathom this or that or, oh, I disagree with that, but okay, well, perhaps we won't be able to be as close, but maybe that's okay. Maybe we're not having phone calls for four hours every day and going to brunch and taking our kids to the beach together. But maybe that's okay. Maybe our closeness is a level four and with somebody else it's a level nine. But I'm thinking that, you know, I say all the time, I think too many female

Starting point is 00:47:36 friendships end prematurely because one, we don't have difficult conversations. We avoid them all together. Or when we do, it's because we're pushing to make this woman be all of the things to us. And I think as soon as we release her from that expectation, we release ourselves from the disappointment of her not being all the things. Maybe we can find some common ground to enjoy each other. And it just is what it is. I love that. Okay, I have a really awkward question, but that's my jam. We're just starting Black History Month now. And obviously we've addressed the fact that Black Lives Matter happened. And I think there was a big push. Everybody's like, oh, I'm going to read all these books. And people were like, do you even have Black friends? And I think a lot of people were like, I would like to have Black friends. And I don't. And they looked around their social circle and realize that everybody looked exactly like them. But you don't want to go out and be like, oh, hey, hey, you're black. Should we be friends now? So how would you address somebody who's looking around their social circle and wants it to be more diverse but doesn't know how to go about doing so? It's a great question. Yeah, I did recently read something. I don't want to miss quote it,

Starting point is 00:48:42 but I think it said a little more than 70% of white people have an all-white network. And I was just like, what? So I mean, I guess I get it sociologically. I don't know. But it's just like mind-blowing. So when people ask like, well, how do I start to kind of mix it up? the first thing I say is I like to give this secret tip if you want to kind of like bring in people of color into your friendship circle. You walk up to them and you say, hi. Whoa. Whoa. I think it's really great when people are like, they're looking around. They're like, oh my God, how did my network get so white? I think it's funny. I think it's important to have that observation. But I think the next thing is if you find yourself doing it from a place up, I need to recruit because this looks bad or because I'm curious about black people and treating them like a different. treating us like a different species and it's nice to have some of that in the mix. I think that's the wrong approach. But if you're like, oh my gosh, maybe I have certain behaviors and habits that are always leading me to the same social circles, you know, what kinds of activities do you do? You know, are you constantly networking within the same group and recycling the same people?

Starting point is 00:49:46 And maybe just training your eyes, opening your eyes. You know, when you do go to yoga class, is there that one black person? And, you know, you naturally maybe gravitate to somebody else, but just saying to her like, hey, and commenting on, you know, how she was killing it in class. And it's just that simple. Like, hey, oh my gosh, you are light years ahead of me. Like, I was looking at you at the corner of my eye and you were killing it today in class. That's it the same way you would anybody else. But I think it just starts with training our eyes to see all the opportunity to connect

Starting point is 00:50:12 with different kinds of people all around us. And not like, like when I often share people that people can follow in social media on social media who are accounts of amazing black women. But I'm always like, don't follow them because they're black women. I am spotlighting them because I think it's often harder to find black women in the wellness space, particularly, but follow them because of their amazing content. And I'm sharing a bunch of them so that you can find people you resonate with and follow them because of their amazing content. And would you say that that's sort of similar with friendship is like you can maybe train your eye to see what it was overlooking, but then you want to be friends with people who you want to be friends. with ultimately. Yeah, I always say start with what are your interests because, you know, I jokingly say

Starting point is 00:50:59 black people are everywhere. We are everywhere. We're at the swimming pool. We're at the plant nursery. We're at the daddy daughter dances. We're everywhere. So I say lean into what your interest is. You love wine. Great. Black women, you know, it's a big thing for us to be in book clubs and we love wine. Look at that. You know, so really lean into your interests and open your eyes within that space. We are everywhere. You know, so I think it's funny when people are like, I just don't see any black people in that space. I'm like, no, no, we're there. You know, but because of other maybe systemic things, you're not seeing the representation,

Starting point is 00:51:31 but we're everywhere. And so really lean into the interests that you already have and then kind of open your eyes to opportunity for connection. I would also say I had a woman on the podcast who was talking about advocacy in the fitness world. And she said if you go to a space and like literally don't see any black people, like bring that up with management, like white people bringing that up and saying, why does your gym have zero black people working behind the desk or in the actual facility using it, like bring it up and maybe that can start to change if enough people are like and revisit maybe where you're going

Starting point is 00:52:06 if it's all completely homogenous, which I thought was an interesting point. That's so good. I love that about being vocal and saying, hey, I've noticed and I know you've noticed too. But yeah, but it's all about, you know, especially in businesses, recruiting and retaining and promoting, you know, black people. So yeah, I love that advice. All right. So let's say you've figured out that a friendship isn't good for you right now. Is there a good way to move away from a friendship? Do you recommend ghostine? Okay. So unpopular opinion. You know, I said earlier, I think a lot of friendships are ending because we're like, we don't want to have the conversation. And I think there's a myriad of reasons. You know, I think some of it's cultural and we don't want to be seen as, you know, a lot of times when I talk to clients when we have our one-on-one sessions. And she just goes on and on and I'm listening. But one of the questions inevitably from me will be, you know, did you, did you tell her that? And it's like, well, God, I mean, no, I don't want to make it like a whole thing.

Starting point is 00:53:02 I don't want to make like a big deal. So I think culturally we're resistant to looking like we're being dramatic, that we're overreacting or that we're, you know, being angsty. And, you know, I kind of speculate a little bit. We're during a time when we're very, you know, feminist, feminist, hear me roar, right or die for women. But, you know, do we wonder if pushing back to our friends makes us look disloyal? like I'm not being girl power to say I have a problem with what you said the other day. You know, so I always recommend if you're like, this relationship is not good for me,

Starting point is 00:53:31 that you have a conversation, especially if your plan is to leave. Because otherwise, it is ghosting. And I know you've got justifications for days. Like, well, yeah, but she's da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And I always say, unless the infraction, the offense was egregious, she called you out of your name, slept with your husband. That doesn't require a conversation. Like, we're not going to apple bees and splitting mozzarella sticks to talk.

Starting point is 00:53:53 about sleeping with my husband like that just you know I get that but if that's something where something rubbed you the wrong way I always asked did you even give her a chance to know that that was not cool and I know sometimes we're like well come on that was obvious but she did you even give her a chance to self-correct to say like oh I didn't know you you weren't cool with that I'm so sorry or oh when I say that word I didn't know that it like held these meetings for you like I'm so sorry do we even give her a chance but what we'll do is we'll hold it in we'll pretend it's cool we complain about her to our other friends to our spouse who's totally overhearing it, but we never tell her like, hey, what you said the other

Starting point is 00:54:29 day rub me the wrong way, but I think I could be totally wrong in what you meant. Can you tell me what you meant when you said that thing? And just giving it space to breathe and to, you know, get some understanding. But if you do decide, no, I'm out of here. I always advise just having a conversation as awkward as it might be so that she's not wondering where you went. And so it's kind of like a a dignity thing like just give her the dignity of hey you know i i'm in a space where i feel like these things aren't going to work for me i always say try not to personalize it so instead of telling her you're to this or you're not this enough that's very personal and so it's like you know what has nothing to do with you as a person it's us when we come together this is not working for what

Starting point is 00:55:12 i'm looking for that way it doesn't sound like you know an attack and people get a defensive but you can't really argue with a person saying like hey this situation is just a I think it's too much for me right now. And I feel like I kind of need some space because it feels like a lot. And not you feel like a lot. This feels like a lot. And then she can maybe get mad, but at least she has to have respect that you told her. And then it's her choice as to what to do with that information. I love that you said exact words to use because even you talking about approaching a confrontation like that makes my heartbeat harder. I'm like, oh my God, that would make me so nervous. Like I have a hard conversation I need to have with a friend about like we've just been sort of disagree. about how she's approached COVID and she reached out to me and I was like, honestly, I've been having a really hard time with how you've been approaching this just with my own moral system. And she's like, well, let's talk about it on the phone. And I was like, cool, cool. And then I haven't

Starting point is 00:56:04 called her because I'm so nervous about it. But it's nice to have a little bit of a script, I think. That makes me less nervous. You got this, Liz. So I'll give you two things when you have that conversation because I know you're not going to avoid it after this. I'll give you two things. The first is, like, when women are like, what is my opening line? So I like to do the exercise of, what's the reason you don't want to have the conversation? And whatever that is should be the first sentence because it disarms people. So if my fear is that it's going to be a huge blowup or that she's going to misunderstand me and it's going to make it awkward or that she's going to go and tell all our friends, she'd be the first thing I say. So I say, hey, Kate, so listen, I don't know if her name is Kate.

Starting point is 00:56:46 Hey Kate, you know, I've been avoiding this conversation because I feel like the last thing I want is for there to be like some huge blowup and then we don't see each other. But it's just like, I love you. And I feel like we have to talk this through to get on the same page. And so I do want to spend some time, you know, talking about this a little bit. It totally disarms her because I've started the conversation by saying the objective of this conversation is to bring us closer together and I have some understanding. I'm not coming at you. So, you know, let's do that together. And then the final thing I'd say, to prepare for that conversation is to develop more questions than statements because we go into it trying to tell her how the COVID thing's not a moral thing and people kind of flare up at those kind of accusations that, you know, we see things in a better light, even though, yes, she does need to be wearing a mask. I'm sorry, you know, but maybe there's a way to be like, you know, so tell me what is it. Are you just like overwearing the mask or do you feel like, you know, maybe I'm being a little too overcautious? Like, help me understand what's going on. And maybe it's something where we can

Starting point is 00:57:46 tell her like, listen, you go do your thing. I feel like it's a safety thing for us to mask up. And so maybe we can just find ways to still hang out, but we can't be in the same space because I feel like I still got to protect the family. So maybe we can do virtual things, but I don't know that I can do in-person hangouts. I'm just really not comfortable. And so it becomes collaborative. Hey, what can we come up with together? Because what you're doing ain't going to work? So what can we come up together? But those kinds of approaches, I think, disarm people and make it possible, believe it or not to come out closer than you were before you went into it. All right.

Starting point is 00:58:20 Give me your best tips for making friends as an adult that aren't lame and won't make you feel lame and maybe some that are applicable during a time where, you know, we're not going out and meeting people all the time and also some for back when life gets back to normal. So first let me rip up my list of lame ways to meet friends because you said none of those, none of those. A couple of things. The first thing I would say is to lean into the people you already know. And we so often make the mistake of using the phrase, make new friends and meet new people synonymously. And the two are not the same. You probably already have people in your circle who you know who are like prime opportunities for friendship. But we dismiss them as too young, too old, too nerdy and not nerdy enough. You're working with a lot. And so the first thing I'd say is, start there. Don't discount the connections you've actually made that are friends of friends.

Starting point is 00:59:17 So, you know, maybe the next time you talk to them, can you extend the conversation, just two more minutes? Or can you, you know, send a random DM and say like, hey, I know this is random, but I recently saw XYZ and it made me think of that party we went to. Remember? Like last year, I just had to message you because it was just, I had a good laugh today and I thought of you. That's it. I mean, it's it. And you're acknowledging, I know this was random, but I thought of you. Remember we went to that thing together? All of us? It was just such a good time. I hope you're doing well. And that would make anybody feel good, honestly.

Starting point is 00:59:45 Like, I can't imagine being on the receiving end of that message and being like, oh, this person's a loser. Like, that just makes you feel good. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we'd be surprised to learn that sometimes people are relieved that we did at first. Maybe they're also thinking like, God, she's cool. But who wants to, you know, we get in our head about, do I look desperate? Do I look clingy?

Starting point is 01:00:03 But a lot of times the other woman's thinking, too, she's walking away with the same sentiment. Like, man, that girl, she's clever. Like, I like her. You know, they're walking away with the same thing. So just putting yourself out there. The second thing I would suggest is to leverage online interest groups. So, you know, one popular one is meetup.com. And I need to stop saying their name until they start writing me a check for suggesting

Starting point is 01:00:24 them all the time. But, you know, meetup.com and similar websites, their whole goal is to present you with tons of options for interest groups in your area. And so I know some of us roll her eyes like, oh, my God, really interest groups. But the good thing about that is you don't have to worry about am I going to look clingy if I say that they're all there for the same reason so there's a baseline you don't have to worry about if you look weird putting yourself out it is the expectation that you put yourself out there so I like to suggest you know finding a group you like messaging the coordinator the person who developed the group and say hey I'm thinking about coming to the next virtual happy hour or the next virtual whatever but I don't know you know what should I expect and a lot of times what they'll do is they'll give you the download on everything But they're also trying to create community as the founders of the group. So they'll probably be connecting you with people at the thing that you show up to.

Starting point is 01:01:19 Like, hey, everybody, this is Liz. She's the first-timer. And they help, you know, connect you. Which leads into my third tip, which would be to leverage the extra version of your super connector friends. So these are the people who always know what's popping. They always know the next party. They've got tons of friends. Why not hit them up and say, like,

Starting point is 01:01:41 So you know I'm new to town and I'm just trying to look for like some some things to do to get out there. Like do you know of anything coming up. I know you do. You always know the hot spots. But that's something where I'm enlisting the help of a person who naturally is inclined to do all the things. And so they're happy to be like, actually, yeah, we're doing like a baking thing next Friday. You should come. And so leaning into those people. So I think it starts with realizing there's opportunity everywhere and you have to put yourself out there. And if the thought of that makes you cringe, one mindset thing I'd like you to do is to stop worrying so much about, will I be received? Will I be received? And just see it as I'm a woman who puts herself out there. That is what I do. That's just what I do. Because it puts more emphasis on what you can control and who you are and less fun. But what if they don't accept me? What if they say no? It's not about them. It's about you putting yourself out there because that's what you do. Oh, that's brilliant advice. I'm going to write that down. I love the idea of being like, who do I want to be rather than how are people going to look at me? I think that's just brilliant

Starting point is 01:02:46 for almost all walks of life. That's, ooh, full body tinkles. Okay, how do we stay close to friends who are in different seasons of their lives? Like if they are in a relationship and we are not, or we've had kids and they haven't or things like that. Yeah. So I know this is really unsexy, but I always like to say put it on the calendar. And you know, we get older and we're like, expecting things to just kind of happen the way they did when we're like in the dorms. You could just walk down the hall. Like, what's up? Now we've got to be intentional about it. I do suggest you try to find ways to express an interest in her new life. So let's say she, you know, goes off and has a baby and she wants to have a conversation about, you know, diaper cream. And you're like,

Starting point is 01:03:24 I don't care. But can you somehow listen to that conversation and, you know, the next time you're in Target, send her a picture of like, hey, I don't know if this is relevant or relevant or not, but they're actually having a cell on that cream that you mentioned. I don't know. I know he had a rash. The target's having a sale. That way, it's like, I don't know what's going on. I can't relate.

Starting point is 01:03:43 And to be honest, I don't want to dedicate any brain cells to this conversation. But I love you. And I want you to know I'm listening. And so I can give what I got and that's what I got. And I think if we do things like that, like, okay, how can I actively show her that I am interested in the things that she's interested in? And I want to listen and I want to show up. I think it starts there.

Starting point is 01:04:02 I think it also starts with, you know, the attitude that we have toward each other. So I've seen some girls who will come to me and their issue is with, you know, well, I'm engaged now. So a couple months ago, girls said, you know, I'm engaged now. And my bridesmaids, they are not. And they're still like going out and they're still doing single girl things. And they want to talk about single girl things. And I'm just like, I can't relate anymore. And so I totally see where she's coming from.

Starting point is 01:04:29 But I was like, but did you tell them like that? Because think about how you would take that. Listen, I can't relate to that stuff anymore. I mean, the implication there, the meta message there is I've advanced and matured. I can't join you on this stuff anymore. So you guys are just going to have to. So sometimes we mean well, but how would they receive what you're saying? Oh, you can't relate because now you just have this new life. And little does she know when she gets married. She's going to need those friends to vent to when her husband can't get it together. You know, so finding ways to not look like we've advanced. dance store excelled beyond the others and that we're all where we are and how can we try to relate to each other and to keep up the interest that we that we share despite our status, our careers and our love interest. How can we kind of stay and build and grow on the stuff that we do have in common? Because that's what will keep us connected. So what would have been a better way for her to say that she couldn't relate to her friends now that she was engaged? Yeah. So sometimes there's something.

Starting point is 01:05:31 subtle ways, like let's say she's giving you the details of some crazy night and you are just like not entertained by it anymore. I believe that sometimes people pick up on social cues. So I think sometimes not engaging as you would before or saying like, oh, I mean, that is just, that is just wild. That way I'm not judging, but she'll also find that it doesn't get the same reaction, excitement, curiosity that it once did. And sometimes we tend to adapt our social behavior based on other people's responses and behavior. That's how we get norms, social norms. Okay, this is not received well here. And maybe on her own, she'll kind of shift to like, okay, that wasn't getting as much of a response from her. So let me lean into something else. Sometimes it cues that. Or, you know, just presenting the

Starting point is 01:06:14 things that you do want to kind of shift the conversation toward in a really graceful way. But some of those subtle things can kind of help adapt the behavior. As long as when we do address it, it's nothing that makes it seem hierarchal. You know, I'm here. I can't do that anymore because I know that tends to get people defensive and I can't blame them. Yeah, no, I can't either. Okay. Last one, what do you do when you wish your partner had more friends? I think a lot of women run into this and you don't want to be like, hey, babe, go make some friends, you know? Yeah, yeah, you don't want to open with that. You know, sometimes it's tricky because especially for talking about like a male partner you know there is stuff that says that you know men use their women for emotional labor because it's not very

Starting point is 01:07:03 welcoming to do that among their male friends so they tend to lean into their wives to really be open with and to kind of like pour out and so we kind of get all that and they reserve it for us if you're noticing that your husband's kind of like being a loner and he needs to put himself out there you know it's okay to sometimes model it so to say like I feel like I need to kind of like get myself out there. So I'm going to try meetup.com, which I'm going to get an affiliate link. I am. Meetup.com and just I have heard that it works. I don't know. Or maybe sending him links to like, okay, so I know you're like a diehard fan of whatever. I know there's some people meeting at the place down the street and they're having like a whole thing. I'll send

Starting point is 01:07:41 you the link. Sometimes creating group scenarios where he's comfortable in the hopes that something individual reforms. So maybe can you, you know, initiate couples nights so that he can kind of have the one-on-one with a guy in a group setting and then eventually hopefully they'd take it to like a one-on-one space. But sometimes being his wingman is helpful and helps him to kind of get himself out there without feeling like he's putting himself out there too much. I love that. Well, there was so much incredible advice backed into such a short amount of time. If people wanted to find you and get more of your wisdom, where would they do that? Yeah, so our Instagram is Friend Forward.

Starting point is 01:08:22 So if you're looking for little tidbits there, we like to post fun TikTok videos. I like to give fun advice on TikTok. That's at the Friendship Expert. And our website is Betterfemalefriendships.com. Love that. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. Thank you for having me. This was fun.

Starting point is 01:08:41 You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. Many of you know that I am, unfortunately, allergic to my beautiful cat baby, Bella. I haven't let that prevent me from snuggling her constantly, which has resulted in a near-perpetual state of itchy eyes and a runny nose. I first tried out life seasons because their Breathe X supplement has the best list of ingredients I've seen in terms of helping with allergies. It has basically all of the ingredients that doctors would recommend when I'd write articles about eliminating allergies. It has quercetin, vitamin C, bromelain, and nettle. I started taking them a few months ago. I do two in the morning and two at night, and honestly, they have made a huge difference. I can breathe better, I'm less itchy, and I'm free to annoy Bella with as many cuddles as I'd like. Life Seasons is truly an impressive company with some of the best supplement formulations. I've also tried their rest ZZZ, which comes in a variety with melatonin and without, on nights that I have a hard time sleeping and is helped immensely. Life Seasons has incredibly high standards for both their formulations. and the products themselves. They do extensive testing on the ingredients at multiple stages

Starting point is 01:09:48 in the process, ensuring they're free of heavy metals, microbes, and that they're as potent as possible. They're sort of the best of both worlds, combining natural herbs. They have a master herbalist on staff with the latest research and validation methods. They're even running a number of their own clinical trials, which I think is so cool. You can go to lifeseasons.com or click the link in the show notes to check out their full line. They have products for gut health, inflammation, immunity, and many, many more, including my beloved allergy blend. They have also given me a discount code. You can use healthier together, like the name of this podcast, all one word, healthier together, for 15% off your order. I cannot wait to hear what you think. Now, let's get back

Starting point is 01:10:28 to the episode. So I want to preface this by saying that we are both on our periods right now. I am on my first day. Day two, baby. Day two. So I don't know if that's going to be a good or bad thing for the quality of the content, but I just feel like it needs to be said because it's deeply affecting my mood and emotional state right now. Both of ours. We're in the same boat. The first thing that I saw this morning was a text from you that said, oh, guess what? I'm on my period too.

Starting point is 01:10:56 This should be fun. This will be great. I feel like you pulled me into your period orbit. People have said that about me. You have a strong period. I do. It rules all. It's powerful.

Starting point is 01:11:08 All right. Well, if you are hearing a new and friendly. voice here. Do you want to introduce yourself, random stranger? Hello, I'm Gretchen and I am Luce's BFF. All right, Gretchen. Welcome to the Friendship Podcast. I feel like Gretchen's been saying I should have her on the podcast for ages, truly agents. You guys, I'm honored to be here for a long time. And we were going to do a CBD episode, which maybe people would have preferred. But now we're going to do a friendship episode, which I'm really, really excited about. So we're going to

Starting point is 01:11:37 talk all about our friendship, friendship advice. Gretchen's really good at being. a good friend. So I'm excited to see what you have to say about friendship in general. Should we start out with our love story? We met at work at MindBudy Green. And obviously I was the new person. So it was like a lot of faces. And it's like all women there in like their 20s and 30s. So it's like. Well, not obviously. I was working there for like a few years before you came and worked there. And I already had like a lot of friends there and you kind of join the editorial team. So and then I remember that we went to, um, the Blue Hill, like, Farm Day. Well, no.

Starting point is 01:12:14 Our first date was when you off on garden, when Liz was basically like, I'm going to go to this restaurant. So I was the, just for context, I was the food director at Mind Body Green, which means I managed all of our food content. And one of the fun perks of that was that I got to, like, go out and eat at new restaurants and check out their menus and just sort of do like fun food events. And then Gretchen was the health editor, which I'm sure had some perks. but certainly less.

Starting point is 01:12:43 You got a lot of free supplements. You got a lot of free supplements. You had to go on like some fun trips, I think. Totally. But definitely I think the food editor jobs like the perkiest and beauty editor. Beauty editor. Everybody loves the beauty. Yeah. For sure. So make friends with the beauty editor and be the food editor was my strategy. So I got invited to go try out this restaurant and I think I just invite.

Starting point is 01:13:06 I think it was a day of even maybe. Yeah. Or maybe the day before. Like, it was very like, I'm sure it was just a lucky thing. Like, I was sitting next to you or something. You were like, you want to go. And then we just like went. And then we went.

Starting point is 01:13:18 And it was so fun. And we have a selfie from that day. Yeah. My hair was super long. And yours was super dark. Oh, that's so sweet. Okay. So then do you remember when you were like Liz?

Starting point is 01:13:32 Like, I think a question I got a lot was how you change from acquaintances to real friends texting all the time and then further than that how you go from that to being like best friends I'm going to call you at weird times of the night and say like weird things and I'm not going to feel strange about that at all and as particularly as a grown up I think so do you remember that dynamic at all in our relationship you know there's one weekend which you mentioned like the Blue Hill farm where we like got up early got a rental car drove out like went to the turkey parade like I really think it was this like day that was the day It's this really fancy restaurant, but they have this, it was like a turkey.

Starting point is 01:14:14 It's definitely an event for children. Oh, certainly. But we all love the restaurant. And so we were like, let's go. And we had like this fun. It was us and like a bunch of five-year-olds. Yeah, but like L at that point was I was probably closer to. So we went with you guys and it was like the four of us.

Starting point is 01:14:30 I do think that leave changing environments like together is important. And I also think having novel experiences. Like I think a lot of times in friendships there can be a tendency to be like, oh, like, come over to my house for dinner or let's go to a bar or let's go out to a restaurant. And I think all those things are really fun. But I think having novel experiences together solidifies and fast forward's friendship. Totally. Like I think that one day, which by the way, we also stopped at a pumpkin patch, went back to Elle's house and carved pumpkins together that day and had dinner. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:15:04 Made carbonate. That one day was worth like 50 happy hours. Yeah, I agree with that. I also, I think that about traveling too. Like, I think something we've done really well together is travel. So later in our love story, I think we were like, I'm definitely skipping ahead because we were already very much in love at this point. Yes.

Starting point is 01:15:23 But I took Gretchen on a romantic honeymoon to Italy. I got invited by an olive oil brand to go to Italy and do this trip and it was spectacular and amazing. And then I stayed for a few days afterwards. and I was writing another piece. So I got all these very fancy hotel rooms. And Gretchen flew out for like four. And it was so last minute.

Starting point is 01:15:44 Like remember it was the week before and I had just turned in the edits on my second book. So I was like, I should do something crazy. And you were like, if I can get a flight with my miles, I'll do it or something. And then we like logged onto your mile site and you could get a flight with your miles and you were like, I'm going to do it. And I went for four days to Italy. It was crazy. It was so fun.

Starting point is 01:16:02 But I think like that trip and then we went to. Colorado together. And then when I was on book tour, you flew out to Seattle and we, you stayed with my dad and my sister and Zach and we took Gretchen hiking. And I would, I wouldn't say you falsely represented yourself as a great hiker. Well, okay, for everyone listening, I don't know what you would think if someone said, like, we're going to go on a quote unquote a hiking trip. A hiking trip. But to me, that's like, you go on a trip to a beautiful place. You go on a few like hour long nature walks, maybe you see a waterfall. I was not prepared for 12 mile hikes every day. I think you thought it would be like a spa trip with a few Johnson nature. And what we gave you was like very shitty accommodation.

Starting point is 01:16:47 And it was very long jelly sandwiches every day in the middle of nowhere. And like a 70s dated, creepy household with like, that was the best house. VHS movies. We watched Cinderella 2. And then we played a game called life stories where everybody wins. And you don't learn anything about anybody. Basically, we told some good stories of life stories. And it was like one of those games that has a whole 80s family in the front cover who's just like having a ball. But yeah, I do think that traveling together is if you can do it, even a weekend away,

Starting point is 01:17:23 like a weekend in a day trip. Yeah, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. My mom always says you do not know someone until you travel with them. and it's the best way to gain friends and lose friends. And it really is. It's just like it's either such a bonding experience or you're like, wow, I don't know this person.

Starting point is 01:17:40 It's one of the reasons. I mean, I was going to say it's one of the reasons the Bachelor works. And then I was like, The Bachelor doesn't really work. So that's not an appropriate thing to say. But it's something they do try to do on The Bachelor to accelerate the relationships is they send them on adventures. They send them on trips. There's some study that says we don't know the difference when we're feeling a feeling

Starting point is 01:18:00 if it's because of the environment that we're in or if it's because of the person that we're with so that they say if you go on dates, you should go to scary movies because then your heart rate goes up and you think you like the person that you're with. And I think that's the same thing. Like if you are having a fun, grand adventure,

Starting point is 01:18:17 you think it's because of the person you're with whether or not it is. And then you associate those good feelings with that person, I think. Yeah. And I think it's just nice to see people. Like it was nice to see you out of the context of the office and just like, you know, I don't know. I don't know, just in a different context and like experience something together.

Starting point is 01:18:36 One of the things I want to talk about is I think you've been a really good friend to me with my anxiety. And I think a lot of people are curious about how things like anxiety or chronic illness, you've also, you've been, you've dealt with various sicknesses in your life. And are there things that you think, like, first of all, I guess, what did you think when you were first exposed to my anxiety? Did you judge it? Well, I have anxiety too. No, I have had, I think my anxiety is, well, actually, let's speak as like 2019, Gretchen would have said, my anxiety is like, it ebbs and flows, but I roll with it and it doesn't keep me from doing anything I want to do.

Starting point is 01:19:17 I still don't think it really keeps me from doing anything I want to do, but it's definitely worse this year. But, no, I think I have just total compassion for people with anxiety. Like I know how difficult it is and how much you can, it just gets in your way. And so I think that probably even made me like you more. Well, and I think that's the thing with chronic illnesses with anxiety is we want to hide those parts of ourselves because we're worried that people will judge them. But people don't judge them and they feel almost like honored that you'll let them into the fullness of yourself.

Starting point is 01:19:53 Totally honored. And I think, and for me, it's really tested. Like, you've seen me have panic attacks and stuff at home. But I think for me, it's when I can say, like, if we're out at a bar and I can be like, I'm feeling really anxious. And I feel like I'm spoiling your fun. And that's the thing that I always found the most embarrassing. And I've never, every time I do it, it doesn't.

Starting point is 01:20:15 It's like, it works out fine. You know what I mean? Well, that's because my fun is hanging out with you. Right. It's not being at a bar hanging out with you. Or like, I remember when I told you about my fear of having. seizures, which is like a huge fear. And I even get anxious, like, talking about it. It's like my underlying PTSD fear. And then we went to the Maggie Rogers concert together. And the opening act was literally,

Starting point is 01:20:40 so I don't have photo sensitivity. Like, like laser lights don't make me have seizures, but I'm afraid of them. Because of, yeah, anxiety of seizures. Totally. Which makes total sense. Fully irrational. But because I had told Gretchen that, at the concert, I literally would just like put my hands over my eyes for like entire songs. And then she would like tell me when the light part was over. And the fact that I could do that and enjoy the concert and not feel like I had to hide this like very weird fear that I had. And good friend, like good friendships make even like it was the worst parts of your life funny. Like they really do like.

Starting point is 01:21:21 I think I like put my sunglasses on a time. And you were dancing. But like, this like cautious, like shade over your eyes. Like the eyes covered, grooving, yeah. Yeah. And I think like, yeah, the best friends, like, we're all human and we all have weird things about us that we don't like and don't want to show people. But like, friends are truly there to be the people where you can be like, I have this weird thing and let's laugh about it together. And immediately you just feel like it's okay.

Starting point is 01:21:49 Well, and I feel like for me, that's literally the fundamental difference between friends and best friends is that when I have like, a little bit of social anxiety. I have a weird social anxiety because I love to be the center of attention. I love to like dance on tables. I love when everybody in the room is looking at me. But I also, I think as an entertainer, feel the constant pressure to be the one carrying a conversation and to be funny and to perform. And for me, there's on a normal bar night, I'll be like, okay, do I have enough fun things

Starting point is 01:22:19 to talk about? And there's just a lot of pressure that comes with that. And I feel like for me, a best friend is like when I can be like, I literally, don't care if Gretchen is entertained at all. If she doesn't, I have the safety and the comfort of knowing that if you don't have fun, like you're not going away. Like, I don't have to woo you to keep you there. If you don't have fun, it's like not my problem. Thanks. But I also think a great litmus test of like, do you have a good friend in someone or not? is like, does it really matter what you're doing? Like, can you be stuck in traffic with this person

Starting point is 01:22:59 and still manage to have like a decent time? Like, not every day with every friend is good. But if it's like you're with a friend and you're constantly thinking like, oh, do I have enough snacks? Like, are we doing enough fun things? Do I look cool enough? Are they entertained? Are they bored? That's like a big red flag for me. That's a big red flag. Yeah. I agree. I think a good friend is like, you could be doing virtually anything and you will. I love that our advice is like, go have novel adventures and also do absolutely nothing. And also go get stuck in traffic and see if you learn to hang each other. Just do extremes and you'll have a really, really great time.

Starting point is 01:23:37 Okay. The other thing I want to talk about is the huge elephant in the room, which is that you're so single. And I'm very married. I've been married since he – was I married when you were just engaged? up since like you were a child bread. Yeah, it was a child bread. And I still look like one. And you still have the tiny hands of a tiny child.

Starting point is 01:24:01 I still have the tiny hands of one. Yeah, so Zach has kind of always been a part of our relationship. Pretty much. Yeah, what do you, like, what do you think about being single and having? Because I also remember, I've, I had times in New York. I remember one, I'm sure it happened more than once, but there was one time where I said to Zach, like, I think. We're doing too many group hangs and I need to like go to Gretchen's house on my own and like watch sex in the city and her bed with her or something.

Starting point is 01:24:30 You know what I mean? Like I remember drawing that line sometimes. That was because I had just been dumped. Actually, no, I just dumped someone that time. No, the time that you dumped the person that you absolutely should have dumped and you're very brave and strong for making that decision. That wasn't even question with Zach. That was like literally like I was like, I would have been like, bye. Please leave.

Starting point is 01:24:51 Yeah, but I want you to see me eating tacos and crying into my taco. There was like another time when I just felt like I was getting a vibe from you of like there was just like too much. There wasn't enough girl time. And if you and Zach get along really, really well. We get along marvelously well, which I feel super lucky about and highly recommend finding a friend whose husband that you like. I know, I find it. So you have friends who won't be named but who you don't get as long as well with their partners. And I almost find that interesting because by the transitive property, I would think if you like a person, you would like who they would choose to partner themselves with.

Starting point is 01:25:28 Doesn't that feel weird to you just intuitively? It does. But it's something I've like had to grapple with as I've gotten older that like and also that you don't have to like everything about them. Like as long as you've got a good friend in them, you don't have to do group hangs. I think we all hang out together because we most of the time have more fun the three of us than just you and me. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, you know, like, you and I like a group. Like, we like to go out and like do things and, you know.

Starting point is 01:25:59 But yeah, I don't know. It's not something I like think a lot about because I think also you and Zach are really good about not making me feel excluded. Like when we go out, it's not like you talk about having sex. You don't like when you talk about having sex at all. I don't know why. I think it's because we're like, it's just like, I think it's more. I think it's more about him. Like, if you were telling me about having sex with someone that wasn't back, I know it's really. I have to say this is like an, and I know it's like my diamond ring is too heavy, but it's an under-talked-about thing with married people is that you go from being able to like gossip about your dating life with your friends to not because one, you don't want to say anything negative

Starting point is 01:26:35 about this person who's guaranteed to be in your friend's life for years. You don't want to be like, oh my God, my husband's such a dick. And then they're like, he is a dick. And then you're like, wait, why do you think my husband's a dick? But also you can't like, yeah, you're not going to be like, oh, my God. have this really fun hookup story. So I don't get to like talk about my fun sex adventures with anybody other than the person I'm having them with. And maybe my therapist, too I think is also bored by them. Yeah. I don't know because we do have like we have had virtually opposite 20s. Like you were

Starting point is 01:27:05 in a relationship for your whole 20s. I've basically been single for all of my 20s. But I think the key is like you guys don't make me feel excluded. You're not like sitting in a booth cuddling while I sit on the other side. like, okay. Usually it's like, exactly, Zach are on one side of the booth. Both of their language is touched. And I'm just like learning to love to be touched. And you're very like, you guys are both very like inclusionary. And I have friends who are less like that. Like when they get into a relationship, they, I mean, some of them all but disappear. Some of them are just more distant. And I. So what do you do in that? Like, do you have a conversation? Do you just kind of like let it go for that season and hope it'll come back around? I mean, sometimes that you lose

Starting point is 01:27:44 friends entirely. And it just happens. But like the people who have stayed in my life, I just have learned like when I'm in a relationship, finally, if that ever happens, I will like, I would like them to give me some slack. Like when you're falling in love, like you're literally going through like a chemical like explosion where you just want to be with that person all the time. And I think as I give them like six months. I think like six months to a year, if a friend isn't being as good of a friend, I'm okay with it. But if it's been a lot longer than that and there's still, I just think, I think there's a lot of advice and messaging out there about putting a lot of effort into relationships and like figuring out your love languages and cooking dinner for your

Starting point is 01:28:29 partner and setting date nights to and being like relationships take work, you should put the work in. And I don't think there's enough messaging out there about friendships take work too. And you need to put the work into friendships. And when I have friends who aren't willing, to put the work in, I do get frustrated. And I think I can perceive it as, oh, this person doesn't like me as much as I like them. But really, it just, I think usually, I mean, it could be that. But usually, I think it's that they have a different perception of like the place of a friendship in their life. And I think maybe because I've been in a relationship for so long, I put friendship on a very high pedestal. I think it's incredibly important. And I like to be friends with other

Starting point is 01:29:07 people who take it very seriously too. And I think that's why we're such good friends. I really do because for me, friends are like, they're number one. They are like the basically the most important thing in my life. You know what I mean? And sometimes people just, that's not how they are raised or that's not how they see the world. And like you can sort of only count on those people to give you a certain level of friendship. And I think so that, I think realizing that is important. Instead of trying to fix it, almost figuring out like do we match in this way and having and matching your expectations to if that's aligned rather than trying to force somebody to be what they're not. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:29:44 Well, and also I think a lot goes unsaid. Like if you have a friend who's sort of distant or getting into a relationship and you're feeling neglected, like I think a lot of times you kind of just don't say anything and then you take it really personally. Like not you specifically, but I've done it every universal you. But I think like you can use those skills you learn in therapy and in your self-help and your attachment books and your friendships too and tell your friends what you need from them. I think you can almost apply any relationship advice outside of like use a lot of lube for sex.

Starting point is 01:30:22 You know what I mean? I know everything. I agree. Yeah. Like I think attachment styles holds true for friendships. I think the love languages, honestly, like I think for me knowing that physical touches a love language of yours means that when you cuddle up with me on the couch, I'm like, oh, I can like cuddle up back with her and she'll feel good in this.

Starting point is 01:30:39 way. I think that knowing how your partner, how your friend is in a relationship and almost entry in the same way too. Like, have you not had a date night recently go out and have a date night, like plan a thing for them? Have you not checked in to see how they're feeling recently? Check in to see how they're feeling. Did you see something that made you think of them? Could you just send it to them? Like, it is important to do that stuff for your friends. Do you think so? I think you're an incredible long distance friend and I think I'm, um, you're a, less than incredible? What's a word that means less than incredible, but not terrible?

Starting point is 01:31:14 I don't think I'm terrible. I just, I hate talking on the phone, although I've gotten better at that. I think it triggers your attachment thing. I do too. I think it triggers all of my attachment issues. So I'm working on it and it's definitely been hard for COVID. But like, do you have tips for long distance friendships? So, or forcing people are bad at them to be good at them?

Starting point is 01:31:35 Yes. And my tip for, I have a friend who lives in Australia. And she's my friend too, but she's more of Gretchen's friend because Gretchen's been better at maintaining the relationship. You literally went and visited her. Well, I literally went and lived with her and we like stayed in the same room for almost a month. So like, but I think so what we do, which I think is just has worked really well for us is we just have actually three of us have a group chat. And whenever we have time, we'll send a voice note to the group chat. it's basically like a slow podcast that we have going and we'll just say hey just getting ready

Starting point is 01:32:13 putting my makeup on or a video and we'll just say here's what I'm doing today here's what I ate here's this new like like cheese puff I discovered that's delicious like just like the normal stuff that you would get when you're with each other and then there's no like pressure to schedule it or listen to it like sometimes we don't listen to it for a week and we'll text and say hey I know we have all these voice notes to catch up on. I'm going to do it tomorrow morning while I have my coffee. And we just kind of have a running thing. I also think cold calling has gone totally out of style and I don't like it. I will just cold call people sometimes. And a lot of the times they're like, I was just watching Netflix, but yeah, I would love to talk for an hour and a half.

Starting point is 01:32:56 Yeah, I was listening to something recently. I don't know what it was, but it was basically about like how are we using our time and can we use our time in a way that actually, it's, it's, it's I think you're supposed to go through and do like a time audit and figure out if the way that you're using your time is making you happy and feel good. Let's not do that until after we get our vaccines. Maybe later. But one of the things she's saying is like often we would like go on social media when we have like 10 minutes. And how much better would you feel if you called a friend during that 10 minutes?

Starting point is 01:33:25 And I was literally. 10 minutes. I think I think we like fill a lot of our time with things that don't actually make us happy. And I social media makes me happy sometimes. And I'm not saying that it shouldn't. And a lot of other things, like honestly, scrolling on TikTok makes me really happy sometimes. But I think being consciously aware of like is this way that I just spent my time making me feel good or bad right after? And I do think a little quick actual moment of connection will almost always make you feel good.

Starting point is 01:33:55 Okay, what about friend breakups? Don't I. What would, what could I do that would make you break up with me? Read my diary. Oh, really? I don't know why. I would have literally never even thought of that. Really?

Starting point is 01:34:08 Yeah. That is like truly, I think, the worst thing someone could do to you. Is like invade your privacy. It's invade your private. I don't know why I just thought of that. I must have had like a dream about someone reading a diary. That's so interesting. But yeah, that is like one thing I couldn't get over.

Starting point is 01:34:23 Huh. That's so. Have you had any issues during like COVID or with politically having those sort of differences of friendship? Yeah, I think politics now can get in the way of friendships. but I also think. But you have friends who believe very differently than you do. And I think that's so impressive, honestly.

Starting point is 01:34:43 And more than that, I have friends whose families and their friends believe very differently for me. And even their partners. But we make it work. And sometimes it's harder than others. And you really have to practice, like, radical listening when you really don't want to hear what they're saying. And you really just have to focus on what you can teach each other and what you have in common and your shared values.

Starting point is 01:35:10 But I don't know. Hopefully that will get easier because it really can. I know a lot of people who have lost friends. Well, how do you decide that? Like, how do you decide this friendship has become more stressful to me, like, than it's worth? I think it's like the same way you decide that in a relationship where you're just like, I don't know. it just, you go over a ledge where you're like, I just, it doesn't feel good anymore. And I don't know if I can forget all of this stuff. And I think both of us would probably be better off just, you know, going our own way.

Starting point is 01:35:48 Do you think people like all sort of intuitively know when a relationship is over in a friendship or a relationship? Like, do you think there's always a part of you that just knows and it's about getting in touch with that part? or I haven't ended very many relationships. But I haven't ended some friendships. Yeah. Most of my friendships, the ones that have ended, have ended sort of just, it just got to a point where like the tensions kept coming up and then I didn't reach out and then they never reached out.

Starting point is 01:36:17 You know what I mean? And it just kind of like mutually ghosted. Like nobody was trying to keep it going. Yeah. Although I have also had friendships that have kind of ended and then we've reconnected. So I think, you know, it's just life is stressful already. And if you have a friend that makes you feel bad about yourself or, you know, and you feel like you've given it your best honest effort to connect with them and explain to them what's going on and how you're feeling, I think, you know, sometimes ending friendships is the best thing that can happen to you. I think that feeling bad about yourself is like really important too because I do think front like to me literally and I said this earlier, but I can't.

Starting point is 01:36:58 I don't think it can be overstated. The point of friendships is that it is a safe place to be your authentic self. And I've ended friendships because I don't feel like I'm being my authentic self. And I just truly think there's no real point. I'm trying to think if that's too extreme of a statement. But I just, I think so strongly that if you don't feel like you can be your authentic self, like what is what's the value of the friendship. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:37:23 Like there really isn't. Even if they're funny, even if they're like cool to go out and dance with, I just think there's this niggling, like... There's this, yeah, it's exactly what it is. It's like a scratch, a scratching, like a... And it's better just to end it. And you can make friends. I think, like, this whole podcast episode is going to be sort of about how you can

Starting point is 01:37:40 really make friends at any point in your life. And I think that is what keeps a lot of people holding on to friends that they've had that since they were six, that they have nothing in common with anymore and that they don't feel good around is this, like, fallacy that you can't make friends as an adult. Well, and I think you and I have talked about this before, because, you and I think, I do think that there's a place for friendships from all different parts of your life. And there's something really magical about somebody who's known you from like kindergarten. But I also think there's something equally magical about somebody who knows you when you've

Starting point is 01:38:09 grown into your holest, realist, most adult self. And that they, that you chose each other at that phase in your life. I actually think that that in some ways can make a much deeper and more meaningful and fulfilling relationship. So I think adult friends have huge benefit sometimes over friends you were thrown together earlier in life. Yeah, I had a friend in college who said something that I thought was amazing, which was just friendship isn't measured in time spent together.

Starting point is 01:38:40 Like, it's just not. And I think so many people try to measure it that way. Like, oh, we've been friends since we're six. So we're the best of friends. But I mean... What is it measured in? I don't know. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:38:51 Like, it's measured just like, you know, sometimes. a weekend long romance can be the greatest romance of your life, you know, and the one that's 40 years was like, would you say you measure it in daylights and sunsets and weekends and cups of coffee? Maybe. No, I think. You measured it in love. You measure it in love. It's true.

Starting point is 01:39:14 You measure it in connection. And I think you measure it in like, it's like this is so corny. But like I remember when I got to New York and I met you and like all of my New York friends. I was like, they see me in a way that I really want to see myself and that I think I am this person. But like your friend who snows you since you were 14 can't see you with that type of clarity. And that's why making new friends helps you grow so much because you're like, they see me as this person. I'm this person. This is so great, you know, like.

Starting point is 01:39:45 I also think that it is so important to surround yourself with people who you want to see yourself reflected in, period. And like I there's literal studies that show that you kind of are the mix of the five people that you interact with the most. I think about all the time. I think about that all the time. I think it's so true. And often we're spending so much of our time with people that don't reflect who we are trying to be or who we are. And, and that can hold you back so hugely in ways that like it's, it's like trying to create a habit and stacking every single obstacle in your path, like picking a gym that's a hundred miles away and having a car with a flat tire to get there when you could literally put like a workout equipment in your room by having those friends that turn you into your best health every day. Totally. So should we give people tips on how to make friends as an adult? Because I feel

Starting point is 01:40:39 like a lot of people are going to say like, well, okay, but how do I do it? Yeah, go. Well, we were going to do it together. So my best advice is like take a class. Like I've met some really, really good friends at, I like to take Spanish classes wherever I am because I studied it in college and like that's just like something fun I like to do. Like anything group oriented. God should study to rod. Oh my God. I'm super annoying. But like that kind of thing. Like anything that's interesting to literally anything where you're going to see the same people over and over again for a certain amount of time. That's how you do it. Like I think a lot of people are like, well, how do I make friends when I'm not in school or I don't like the people at work or I don't want to make

Starting point is 01:41:22 friends at work. And it's like literally just put yourself in another scenario where you see the same people all the time. A volleyball league, like a running club. Because familiarity genuinely breeds likability. And I think you have to do all the other stuff we've talked about to breed real intimacy from likeability. But to just get to the likeability phase, it is seeing people repeatedly over and over, I think. Yeah. I will also pull a move. That is kind of funny where you know when you're out, well, remember when we used to go out, when you're out and you're like having some cocktails and you like meet someone and you guys really hit it off like a friend. You know, like you talk to a girl in the bathroom. Yeah. I will like get that person's number or like,

Starting point is 01:42:03 you know, you used to end up hanging out. And then I will literally text them and be like, hey, want to go to this bar? But have you had real? So I've, I've done that too. And sometimes it, I think it actually has worked. Like I had Tara Schuster on the podcast. And then I just really like the conversation. And I was like, hey, I know it's pandemic. But like I'd like to be your friend literally. And we went for a socially distance hike and then really developed a friendship. But most of the time, I feel like that sets me up for like the very awkward second date where I'm incredibly socially anxious. And I'm like, I don't know this person at all.

Starting point is 01:42:36 I don't know what to talk to them about. So I'm just curious how often it's actually paid off for you. And if how you get over like the nervousness. Because I think the nice thing about that familiarity of like being on the same volleyball team for a very long time is you don't have that hump of. like sitting across the table from somebody. Maybe it's not activity is the second date. Yeah, I would say like I met this girl in New York and we hit it off and it sounds like we're like dating, but we're not. But like she was telling me all about like her sister had a Pilates studio or something and she like invite. She was like anytime you want to go to a class, let's go. And it was

Starting point is 01:43:12 like definitely like a very vague invite. And the next day I was like want to go at 3 p.m. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like an activity I think don't, if you meet someone like, at a bar at night, like, and you've been drinking, don't, like, go to, like, a dinner together and stare at each other, like, just go do something fun. I think activities in general are just so underrated as dates or friend dates or any of that because, like, a trivia night, a volunteer thing, like, whatever, like, it's just, like, you have something else to talk about that's not just, like, carrying the entire conversation yourself.

Starting point is 01:43:46 Or, like, if you have a group of friends, like my sister, every Sunday, she and a small group of friends play volleyball. And any time any of them meet somebody new, they invite them to volleyball on Sunday. So they just have this rotation where random new people come in every week and everybody gets to know them. And sometimes they end up coming every week and like enter the friend group. And sometimes they don't. And it's just like that's a really good way too to like have a like standing weekly things like

Starting point is 01:44:15 trivia where you can just say, oh, we'll do trivia Thursday. Why don't you come? And it sounds so casual because it's just like we're going to be there anyway. way. I think we had that briefly in New York where we were like we do a Sunday dinner and people can like stop by and it was a great way when we met people to just have them do my favorite thing, which is have like a dinner party. But I wasn't like, oh my gosh, you should like come over. I'm having a very fancy dinner party. It's just like, yeah, we do this every time you can come by. It's all good. Yeah. I will also do something where if there's like a talk like I loved the New York

Starting point is 01:44:47 Times talks in New York, I would buy two tickets for something that was like a month. away and not like decide with someone to go but then like the week before I'd just be like who do I want to like know better and I would just invite someone say hey I have an extra ticket to this and like I wouldn't be like it's 40 bucks I would just be like I have an extra one come like you know that's lovely that's a really good idea I think that's always good I think that's lovely okay we are running out of time but I would love to hear what you love about me. Oh, no.

Starting point is 01:45:21 Okay. As a friend. Many, many, many things. Not me in like the world, though. Like me as a friend to you. Okay. Okay. So the first thing that comes to mind is I think, first of all, you do use the skills that

Starting point is 01:45:34 you've learned in therapy and like in your relationship on me. Like sometimes when I'm upset or escalating, you will say, how can I support you? Or like, what do you need for it? Like, what can I do? And I think like... I think that is such an under, or I remember one time, this is a proud, like, me using my therapy in real life moment that I did with you. I remember you, you had, like, consistent ongoing anxiety about something in your life.

Starting point is 01:46:01 And one time I literally asked you, what do you need to hear from me when you're feeling this type of anxiety, when you reach out to me and you feel not good about this thing in your life? Yeah. And you literally told me, you said, like, and I said, for real, I really want to know what you what you need to hear. What you need to hear in those moments. And you actually gave me like a few lines that. And that's exactly the moment that I was thinking about.

Starting point is 01:46:24 Yeah. When I mentioned it to you just now was that exact moment. And it was so helpful because then like I think I was trying to like solve it and fix it. And you were like, no, I just need to be like reminded that I felt a different way before. And I was like, oh, that hadn't occurred to me. By the way, we can just say it. I have terrible PMS to the point where there's like a day every month where I feel like I'll never be happy again. if you feel that way ever, I am here with you. And like every month on like this day, I text Liz

Starting point is 01:46:52 and I'm like, nothing is right in my life. Everything is awful. I'm always like, well, you know all these great doctors. Have you tried this person? Are you seed cycling? Like I'm, I've always been coming out as like trying to solve it or being like, remember that your life is actually really, like, I've come in it from all these different angles and you're just like, no, I just need to be told that I've felt good before and I'll feel good again. And in a few days. all of this will seem sort of silly and we'll laugh about it. And I think that's such a, or my friend Tara, who I mentioned, she like has three friends, I think that she tells them when she's depressed. This is what she needs them to say to her. And I think giving your friends the tools to be good friends to you. And asking your friends for those tools is so underutilized and so forth. And I think we've done that a bit with your anxiety too. Like when you had that one sort of panic attack. Yeah, I was like, what can I do? Can I get this tea? Can I spoon you? Do you want to be a little spoon? And like, what should we do? Like, how can we help solve this?

Starting point is 01:47:51 So, okay, so the other thing I will say that I love about you is that I think you want to have like a really magical life and you want to infuse a certain type of magic into every day if you can. And I love that. I don't know if that's like my, or I'm going to go for astrology. If I, my Gemini, like, I crave excitement. But like, I don't know if that's the thing I like least about you. Okay.

Starting point is 01:48:16 My best friend is a gentleman. I know. I've heard that before. I'm sorry, you guys. But you want, like, things to be, like, there's a quote that's like, things will be more magical than you even imagined. And I feel like that's what you want to do. And I crave that in my life, too.

Starting point is 01:48:35 And sometimes I need help getting there because I'm not that good at, like, planning and thinking, you know, like, sometimes I can tend towards, like, but you're always down. Netflix today. That was actually going to be like one of my things that is one of my favorite things about having you as a friend is you're always down. So like when I have my big magical thoughts and I'm like, we have one life. We got to go live it. You're like, yes.

Starting point is 01:48:57 Let's do it. And I think that's like actually a really nice balance of qualities because I also think if you were always like, let's do this thing and this thing. We would get tired. And we would get tired. And we'd have no money. We'd have money. Literally no money.

Starting point is 01:49:13 And I wouldn't be good. But I think it's a really good. balance is one of my favorite things about you for sure. Do you want to hear some stuff I love about you's friends? Yeah. Duh. We have to wrap it up. But because you talk too much. No, you didn't. You talked the perfect amount about how much you loved me as fun. But, okay, so I love the thing about you being always down. I really think that's incredibly important and underutilized. I also think you're incredibly emotionally astute. And really, like you've, you've had, I don't want to say you've had a hard life, but you've experienced a lot of sort of emotional trauma and come out the other

Starting point is 01:49:47 side. And I love people who've learned resilience. And I think you've learned resilience in a really beautiful way. So that's, I think, I think there's a grit to people who, who've learned a little bit of resilience. Thank you. I also think you have a belief that can get annoying, but, but is mostly not that like, is the list of what we find annoying about each other after We don't have half for that. But that you can, that life will work out in a way that's good. And I think sometimes I can turn towards fatalism and my anxiety can tell me all the things that are going to go wrong.

Starting point is 01:50:26 And you move through life with the belief in all of the things that will go right. And I don't mean that in like a head in the clouds way, but just in a way of like you'll deal with stuff when it goes wrong. But you don't spend a lot of time being like, what if this goes wrong and this goes wrong and this goes wrong. You're like, isn't it better to assume it will all go well and then deal with it if it doesn't? And I think that's opened you up to getting to live a pretty extraordinary life and take on opportunities that people, other people might not have had the gall to do. Yeah. And I think sometimes it is okay to be a little naive and a little with your

Starting point is 01:51:01 head in the clouds and just because everythings are going to go wrong. I was like, I saw a TikTok recently that was like, what is the worst thing that could happen if you move through the world? Like you were the most beautiful, badass woman. And I, it's true. Like, what is the, somebody would say, I don't agree with that. And then you'd say, okay. Cool. I'm going to keep doing like, literally so what? And I do think it's something I find really inspiring. Like, what is the worst thing that can happen if I assume life is going to go in my favor? And I'm ready to deal with it if it doesn't. But what's the worst thing that can happen if I just assume that it will? It's all going to work out marvelously. Yeah. Because usually it does, too. And even when it doesn't,

Starting point is 01:51:40 you're not alone. And it's never as bad as you think. Oh my God. If you could see what I think in my head it's never that. I mean, this year should have taught us that. Yeah. It's, depending on where you're at in your mood. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the pot tonight, Gretchen. Thanks for having me. I hope that you loved this episode. It makes me so warm and fuzzy to talk about female friendship. I think it's such an important thing to talk about and to put effort into and I think we need to do so a lot more. I would be so honored if you wanted to share this episode with any of the wonderful women, the female friends in your life. You could use it as a point of conversation to jump off from like we talked in the episode. You could forward them the

Starting point is 01:52:23 episode and be like, oh my gosh, this is really interesting. Have you heard about this or thought about this? We could talk about this. I would be so honored and so appreciative. And I would also love to hear your thoughts on the episode. So don't forget to screenshot and tag me on Instagram. I'm at Liz Moody and then all of my amazing guests shared their handles throughout the episode. So tag them as well. I'm sure they would love to hear you benefiting from and appreciating their wonderful wisdom that they've deigned to share. All right, I love you all and I will see you on the next episode of the Healthy Together podcast. Look, I'm never going to make everything that I wear organic, but your sheets, your pillows, your comforter are literally touching your skin for eight

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Starting point is 01:56:39 up to 25 free meals with Marley Spoon. That is Marley Spoon.com slash offer slash Liz Moody. So remember to get the offer in there. Marley Spoon.com slash offer slash Liz Moody for up to 25 free meals.

The Liz Moody Podcast - The Friendship Episode—How To Make (Best!) Friends As An Adult, Deal with Conflict & Friend Breakups, Diversify Your Friend Group & SO MUCH more ft. @broccyourbody & @olive.eeeats, friendship coach @friendforward, and my own BFF

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