The Liz Moody Podcast - The Marriage Myth: When Science Favors Being Single

Starting point is 00:00:00 Why does society want us to be coupled up so desperately? Well, are there any other myths about marriage? Another myth that I think people think about a lot. Do we all need someone to go through life with? What are your best tips for becoming comfortable with our solitude? Oh, okay. So I love this tool. We're definitely less happy than single people.

Starting point is 00:00:20 And had worse health outcomes, too. And had worse. Okay, so tell me about that. What do you draw from the data? Hello, friends, and welcome to the Liz Moody podcast. I am hugely interested in relationships and marriage and the way that both have evolved over time and the way that the relationships we pursue are so intricately connected with the stories that we tell ourselves about what it means to live a good life.

Starting point is 00:00:42 So many of us have this idea that life is filled with these milestones. Graduate college, get a job, find a partner, get married, have kids. And more and more we're questioning, are these the right choices or are we following them because of societal shoulds? Are there other choices that might make us happier, more fulfilled, more satisfied in this one precious and wild life that we have? Enter Megan Kane. Megan is a podcast powerhouse. She's a founding producer of Ted's Radio Hour. She's a producer at Invisibilia, and she's the founder and producer of Life Kit.

Starting point is 00:01:15 She's also the author of the recently released Party of One Be Your Own Best Partner, which dives into the myths of marriage and explores the much under-discussed benefits of being single. And interestingly, she's now in a long-term relationship herself. We'll talk about that later in the episode. But we will talk about how her embracing of singleness hugely benefited that partnership and can benefit any of us in partnerships. This episode is truly for all of us, whether we are single or in relationships, because a key to a satisfying life is feeling like we have real options. The option to stay single and enjoy it, the option to leave our relationships,

Starting point is 00:01:52 or the option to stay in the relationship, knowing it's a choice, which makes you appreciate it all the more. One life isn't a runner up for another. This is our one go-around on this planet, and it is so much shorter than we think. This episode will help you make the most of it. Megan, welcome to the podcast. Liz, thanks so much for having me. We're going to get into some really fun subjects today.

Starting point is 00:02:15 Things that I just think people should be talking about a lot more. So let's start with our societal obsession with marriage and partnership is so deeply ingrained that I think so many of us don't even step back to question it is a norm. Can you tell us a little bit about where that comes from? Sure, absolutely. You know, I'm a millennial. I'm 35. I thought I was above all of that social conditioning. You know, I grew up with the Disney princesses and I was like, those are fun to watch, but I know I don't want to be a princess, right? And I thought I was like, you know, this feminist who didn't need a man or anything like that. But then the more I was dating and getting to my 20s and then to my 30s, I was like, oh, these external messages,

Starting point is 00:02:53 about putting marriage, especially on a pedestal, we're still sleeping into my brain. A big way it's happened in the United States especially is this idea of that marriage is this be-all-end-all of the best type of connection you can have. Our society is so built on this idea that people should couple up, have children go to the suburbs. And that's just not the best way for people, everyone to live.

Starting point is 00:03:19 The messaging is so strong from a young age, right, where we're told, like, well, when you get married? right? It's like assumed, right? At a bigger, like more systemic level, you know, you're rewarded for getting married, right? With taxes, health care, housing. So there's all these signals big and small that are telling you, you should get coupled up. And, you know, even just when you're, if you're single and around a lot of friends who are coupled, you're hearing about their plans and you're hearing about we're doing this or, you know, we're going to do that. And you feel a little bit on the outside. So of course, you're conditioned to think, well, I have to be in on this club, right? I don't want to be out on the cold. So it really comes out

Starting point is 00:03:55 us from all these different places. And why is that? Like, why does society want us to be coupled up so desperately? Well, you know, there's like political and economic reasons for that. I think, you know, especially in America, it keeps like a real class order. Wait, what do you mean by that? Well, I mean, it maintains wealth, right, within families. Which is sort of where marriage came from originally, right? Exactly. Yeah. It was a means of transferring power and money, right? Like, you know, on a large country level where, you know, royalty would marry into other royalty, but also like on a much more everyday level with farmers, right? Like you have a farm and my family has a farm. Let's combine resources and make this happen. It's interesting. I was talking with Stephanie Coons,

Starting point is 00:04:35 who's this historian who studies marriage. And in America, especially around the Victorian era and like the industrial age, people started to get this idea that they could marry for love. And that was kind of novel. Because before, like we're talking about, like you had to kind of couple up as a means to survive and have an economic safety, right? And then as more and more people started to be able to make wages on their own, right, like leaving the family business or the family farm, also combined with the Enlightenment Age and free thinking, didn't hurt that pride and prejudice had come out in the era before. And so pop culture was also infiltrating like, what if you married for love? That became to really capture a lot of Americans' ideas about what marriage could be next.

Starting point is 00:05:18 But then it still also, of course, came with this economic benefit. The Victorian area, it's not like this huge feminist time where then everyone was married for love and, you know, everyone was so like actualized. But, you know, in reality, there is this real privatization also happening in Victorian America where we were celebrating out more in the streets and our communities for holidays and stuff. And all of a sudden that was becoming more privatized and brought into the home. And so if you weren't married, you were quite literally like out on the cold, right, in like a holiday situation or what have you. you. It's this combination of, it's always been like an economic security blanket for a lot of people, mostly women, right, throughout history. But then it also became a, well, don't you want to feel more actualized? You want to feel like, have this, this is the right type of love that's going to

Starting point is 00:06:02 keep you warm and keep you stable. It's interesting because there, there was that shift, like marriage from business to marriage for love. And that was because of a lot of economic factors, like you just said in all these things. And I almost feel like because of economic factors and societal shifts, now there's a shift going on where women are like, do I need men at all? Like, is this making my life better or is this making my life worse? Because, you know, in the 70s, we were started to be able to get credit cards. We have like a level of economic independence that we've never had before. We have a level of reproductive independence that we've never had before. And so I think that people are questioning, well, what role does this thing serve in my life now in a way that

Starting point is 00:06:42 they never have before? Yeah, completely. And I think it's a wonderful thing because so much of what I learned writing this book was slowing down all of your own thought processes about what are my actual values. What do I actually want? Not just what I think I want. Because if you start to unravel that, you can think, oh, okay, actually, I do want to be more single or single for longer stretches of time or not partnered. Or actually, I do want partnership, but it's going to look different than the way that I've been told partnership should look. And it's interesting to me because, again, I thought I was like above all this, but I was told at a very young age of like, oh, like traditional marriage, right, quote unquote traditional marriage in America was kind of like

Starting point is 00:07:24 the way it's always been. But the reality is that was like a total speed bump made by economic reality after World War II where there was really high wages so you could have a breadwinner, one breadwinner in the home. Someone could stay home and take care of the kids. And that has obviously changed, right? Child ring is incredibly expensive in America. Most parents do have to work. This idea that we had to be coupled up in this specific way was also a blip in the timeline of marriage. And yet, people are still beholden to that idea. But you're right. I do think that once you stop and think, actually, I got my own credit card.

Starting point is 00:08:01 Maybe I own my own house already. A lot of people, especially women, are thinking maybe I can actually unplug from this marriage matrix and think about what I actually want before I make a decision. I tried to dive into the data around being married versus single in terms of happiness levels. And it's really makes. It's kind of a little over place. Yeah. It's really hard to draw conclusions from it seems to me like married people are slightly happier. But that seems to also be because happier people end up married.

Starting point is 00:08:29 And so they're like, were these people happier before? And then they just happened to get married or did marriage make them happier? It seems to be the former a little bit. Also, it seemed like people in unhappy marriages were definitely less happy than. single people. And had worse health outcomes, too. And had, okay, so tell me about that. What do you, what do you draw from the data? It's hard to be like, who's happier and who's not, right? Because it's so individualized. But I think what we can all agree upon is that if you're in an unhappy marriage, you're not going to be happy. Right. And so the idea of just default into any

Starting point is 00:09:01 relationship, my mom always, like, says, like, man at any cost kind of mindset is going to lead you to these relationships that are going to be stressful. And then we know stress causes poor health outcomes, right? I mean, the thing that I always look to is that single people, the research shows, often have more social ties. And we know that social ties of all different types of connection levels, not just marriage, are super important to our health and happiness. They're the most important thing. Everybody listening is sitting there because I talk about the Harvard School of Adult Development study all the fucking time. And everybody's listening. It's like, okay, Liz, like we know. But I do feel, I feel proud if I've like amplified anything into the world, it's this one study.

Starting point is 00:09:38 So I know everybody listening is like, yay, we know that. But it's so important. I read that study, I see like, oh, marriage is not singled out as the type of connection that is the most protective for your health and happiness. The leader of the study talks about how it is your mentors, your weak ties, like your acquaintances, all of this builds up. I just want to like also shout it from the rooftops because it is so in conflict with this idea that you have to have one person be or be all end all kind of relationship when a reality is that I think single people know that they have to have a diverse set of connections. And why aren't we all looking to that and being like, that's what we all need, right? That's what we all need to go for for a happier, healthier life.

Starting point is 00:10:20 That was something I kept thinking about as I read your book is do we all need someone to go through life with, whether that's a friend, a family member, a partner? Like, do we need somebody who, when it's the middle of the night and we need to go to the hospital, is going to drop everything for us when we're going through a depression that last months and months, months. Like, do we need a person and we're just saying that should be a partner too much? Or do you think we actually don't really need a person in any way? No, I totally think you need like your person, right? Okay. I think you're totally right. All those things you mention are things that are not inherently romantic. It's funny to me that we associate so many things that are not romantic or sexual or

Starting point is 00:11:02 anything like that that you reserve typically for a marriage. But those are things that anyone can do, right, technically. Like anyone can be your emergency contact. Anyone can be someone who helps you in a really hard time. Like you don't have to have a romantic partnership, but I do. Yeah, we need other people. Some people come to me and will be like, I love your book. I love the message of singleness, but I still really want a partner. And they're almost like ashamed to say that. If I'm going to be like, that's not, you know, we didn't read, you know, read the book or anything. I'm like, that was me. You want connection. You're a human. That is okay. Just kind of diversifying how you think about how you get that love and attention and affection and deepness with people is only going to open and deepen

Starting point is 00:11:41 your life more than creating this very narrow path about how to get that type of connection. Well, that was a bit of data that jumped out to me from your book was that if you are single, the more that you want a partner, the less happy you're going to be. I know. How do we combat that? So there's this interesting idea about obsessive passion versus harmonious passion. This is different from that research you're mentioning, but I think they kind of link together. If you are obsessed with this one outcome, right, this idea that if you want to get married or have a boyfriend or a girlfriend, right, or partner, and that's the only thing that's going to make you happy will automatically pass fail there, right?

Starting point is 00:12:15 Like you either are going to be in that relationship or you're not. And that is, I think, a really unkind way to go through life. And instead, this idea of obsessive passion tells us, like, it's just that, right? It's like you are compulsively engaging in an activity. So, like, dating and like trying to just do endless. swiping, playing the quote unquote numbers game. That's like your sole focus, you are going to burn out. And I think everyone here who's ever been on a dating at for five seconds is like nodding their heads. On the opposite side is this idea of harmonious passion, meaning you are not as attached to

Starting point is 00:12:47 the outcome of engaging in a behavior with this passion. It's kind of a take it or leave it kind of mindset. This is not the sole focus of your life. You willingly engage with it and then can disconnect it from it because you have a lot of other stuff happening. So I think the, why I'm so big about thinking about friendships, right, hobbies, how to talk to yourself in your own brain about what's the reality of actually happening with dating. It's all in service of helping widening your focus and seeing that the partnership is not the one way to get to happiness, right? That opening the focus is the way that's going to actually not just make you calmer, but like feel like your life is bigger too. What are practical ways that we can do that?

Starting point is 00:13:32 I am a big fan of mindfulness. And the way I think about it is mindfulness is just paying attention to the moment without judgment, right? And the way you can apply it to this context is let's say if you're single and you're upset about it. Also, I know that's not everyone. Some people are probably like, you don't have to tell me twice. I love singleness. But if you are feeling that frustration, if you are noticing that you're feeling frustrated and sad, stop, pay attention to your body, notice how it feels.

Starting point is 00:13:59 And then just label the emotion instead of putting on what's, called a secondary emotion, which is usually shame. I'm feeling sad because no one's going to love me or all these kind of catastrophic thoughts, right? Instead of going down that path, be like, I'm just noticing how I'm feeling. I'm noticing sadness. And even just like I've heard Joseph Goldstein, who's a meditation master talk about this. Don't even put I am sometimes in front of it. Just be like sadness. Just like, I'm just feeling the emotion and processing the emotion rather than creating a whole story about it. Because I think that's something that really takes people down a path where rumination can just like you just spin out, spin out. And oftentimes, and I'm this person too,

Starting point is 00:14:37 we think that rumination is the way you're going to solve a problem, right? If you're just going to, if you could just think about this for like an hour more, you're going to crack it. But the reality is to not actually focus on the problem. It's to take like a mental off ramp. So instead of having like, why do I feel like, why can't I meet anyone? Why can't I do this? Why is this my life? Those questions just make you spin out, right? So what's actually more beneficial is saying, what can I do right now to make myself feel better? What's going to feel nourishing? What's a connection I can reach out to?

Starting point is 00:15:06 It's not solving or answering any of those big questions that you're putting forth, but that's kind of not the point. You actually just want to distract yourself and then stop the rumination because we know rumination is emotionally and physically taxing and it causes a lot of stress on your body. And these are a lot of like in the moment techniques to just take you out of the spinning. But the more you do it, it's like a groove that really, you know, adds up to a positive base of emotion.

Starting point is 00:15:28 You talk about rumination. You also talk in your book about co-rumination. Yes, venting. Venting is not helpful, you say. Can you tell us why? Yeah. So venting, we know and we love it, right? We all think about it as a way to like connect with friends, right?

Starting point is 00:15:43 Here's this crazy thing that happened to me. I want to tell someone about it. You want to feel validated, right? And I'm not saying don't vent. I'm saying no when it's time to turn away from venting into a more perspective taking stage. This is an idea that comes from psychologist Ethan Cross, who I interviewed for the book. And he calls venting co-romanation. And that way I found it pretty damning.

Starting point is 00:16:03 But he was saying like how once you get to a certain point in the venting be like, okay, let's pause. Like, are you ready to move on? I'm a big fan of asking a friend, do you want validation or do you want advice? And that can usually tell me if someone's ready to make the pivot or not. Sometimes people do just need a little bit more validation. If they're ready for advice, it's not to say, well, you should do this or that. It's more like, hey, I know you've gone through this before.

Starting point is 00:16:26 I know you can get through this. It's kind of like advice in the form of like perspective taking. So Ethan Cross also talks about this interesting study. I believe he did this idea of the power perspective taking where he told people to think about, I believe it was a problem. And for some people to think about the problem as themselves, but then another group to think about it as if they were a fly on the wall, looking down at the problem. And the people who were the flies on the wall thinking of themselves as that, they were better able to like process the emotion in a more productive way than the people who were kind of internalizing it. Venting is just a way that it keeps you a little stuck and it can also burn out your friends or your family.

Starting point is 00:17:03 I know I've done that to my mom where I would call about the same problem. She'd be like kind of throw her hands up, you know, after a while. I'm like, I get it. I come with the same problem for yourself or for another friend. If you are able to move to that more perspective taking stage and give kind of like validation that like, hey, you've been through this before. I know you can do it. The classic, that sounds really hard. But think about how you're going to think about this in a year.

Starting point is 00:17:27 Like you probably won't even remember this happened, right? Different things work for different people, right? But the point is to get out of the like the venting. You're kind of just getting worked up, right? And to move to a perspective taking stage. What can people who are married or in long-term relationships say that's helpful for their single friends? Yes, totally.

Starting point is 00:17:49 So my number one big role I have for married and partnered people with their single friends is don't treat their single. life and dating life as entertainment. You know, don't grab the phone and be like, oh, I was never on Tinder. Like, let me like swipe through, right? Oh, my God. Okay. Did I just call you out? Yeah. Well, look, some people are amenable to it. I find a lot of people aren't. Well, no, and I take it I'm like, this, I could, I'd be really good at this. Oh, there you go. Yeah. So my next rule is like, if your single friend is saying, like, do you know anybody that you can send me up with, like, can you look at my profile? I don't engage in it and,

Starting point is 00:18:27 less people bring it to me. Okay. And from there, I don't assume I know what is best for that person's dating life because the reality is that when people meet, it's just like luck and timing a lot of the times. It's not because you were a fully formed person and you got some like degree in being an amazing person. Like a lot of people get into relationships and don't do any self-actualization. I think we say it all the time. So I would say for married people, yeah, be really interested, too, in your single friend's hobbies. Celebrate their accomplishments. Make sure you're inviting them over, inviting them to your life.

Starting point is 00:19:03 And then don't always show up as the couple. Like, I know, like, sometimes that's just the reality of how couples work, especially if they have kids. But try to give that single friend, like, one-on-one time as well. Watch their dog when they go out of town. You know, like, these, again, these, like, little things that we reserve for partners. But single people love and would love for a married friend to, like, help with something that's very practical as well. I've been to many doctor's appointments with

Starting point is 00:19:30 girlfriends who are single. Yeah. I think that's great. And like I'm sure it's really appreciated. I mean, it sounds like small and I'm sure it didn't take up like, you know, a huge part of your day or anything. And, but it went a long way. So just be like thinking a little bit of how can I treat this person as if almost like they were married? I guess like if I was married to them. Like what's a romantic quote unquote gesture I could do for them? I could pick them for it from the airport, I could, yeah, watch their pet. I could take him to this doctor's appointment I know they're nervous about. The thing I always find myself wanting to do is to say, there's this one societal narrative that this is the only way to be happy. And I kind of want to persuade people that there are

Starting point is 00:20:09 all of these different paths to happy lives. But I'm sitting here in my like heteronormative marriage. So is it helpful for me to to try to point out like you don't need a partner to be happy? Can we look at other ways to be happy? Or is that just like deeply, annoying. I mean, it depends what you're talking to. No, I think it's good because I think it signals to people in your life that you love them and you will support them in whatever connection they find. I think a diversity connection, as we know, is just so important. I'm just pro like people taking a beat to be like, what do I actually want and then moving forward? But yeah, I think as soon as you're like, if anyone's like, hey, you have to do this, it does feel constricting. And I think if you're signaling to

Starting point is 00:20:54 people like this is what I picked. I feel good. I feel happy. This is what works for me. But like whatever, I'm so proud that you are having this kid on your own, right? Or you have, you know, you left that partner that was not right for you. I think that's still like really meaningful and validating. You don't have to like, we all can't like live every different type of life, right? But we sometimes just don't even acknowledge that there's other lives. Like my big thing with this episode with so many conversations that I have is to put different types of lives out there as like, this is not something that I'm enduring while I wait to find a partner. This is something that is enjoyable unto itself.

Starting point is 00:21:36 It's why your book spoke to me so much. So I think that you can say that, but people are still like, okay, that's cool. But like, I really want a partner. And I'm like, no, but like that's brought into you from outside messaging. Like, how do we unpack that and say, what does a good life look like? because I also know so many people going back to the stats, I think that when I was looking into the stats around people who were in happy marriages or unhappy marriages,

Starting point is 00:21:57 that's also really hard to suss out. But it looks like around 50%, which correlates with the divorce rate. And there's so many people in unhappy marriages who settle and pick that path and make their life significantly worse because they're so afraid of being single. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:22:13 So that's why I'm so passionate about getting this message out, no matter what your relationship status is, is because I think once we destigmatize singleness, it helps everybody because then, look, there's a lot of reasons why people don't leave marriages. I know it's very complicated and hard and often expensive, but if we could live in a world where people felt like they could leave a marriage because it felt right to just exit that relationship, not worrying about, oh, God, I'm going to be single again. I feel like it would open up people to live more authentically. And then also, once you're, if you're in that relationship still, having that mindset that singleness isn't bad or something

Starting point is 00:22:50 to be solved or to be fearful of, it helps people who are in relationships just retain their own personhood as well, which just makes you, I think, happier, right? To be engaged in your own hobbies, have your own interests, come as a full person to your partner rather than a you complete me situation. So I really do think this message, it just helps show that there's all different types of way of being, and it just makes you feel more like a full person. I very rarely get genuinely excited about skincare, but this is one of the most innovative products that I have come across in years, and I'm so obsessed with it. I've been telling all of my friends to get it, so now I need to tell you guys. Here's some science first. Your skin isn't

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Starting point is 00:30:08 branchbasics.com. That's code Liz Moody for 15% off the premium starter kit at branchbasics.com. And when they ask you where you heard about us, please make sure to mention the show. That is branchbasics.com and use code Liz Moody. You mentioned earlier that this ideal of a marriage that we often put up on a pedestal society really was just a blip in the 1950s, the result of World War II. Are there any other myths about marriage? Another myth that I think people think about a lot is that marriage is going to make them just happier on the long term overall.

Starting point is 00:30:42 And I know we talked about the data can be mixed on that. But a lot of people, I think, confuse a marriage with a wedding sometimes. The wedding is kind of like that spike of happiness, I think, for a lot of people. And so there's this idea of the hedonic treadmill, hedonic adaptation, basically saying when you are thinking that something's going to make you really happy, be it a marriage, a job, moving somewhere. All these things might lead to longer happiness, depending on who you are in your situation. But research shows that most times it leads to a spike of happiness that's very temporary. And then you kind of basically go back down to like your happiness set point. So I think that people had this idea that like once you, you.

Starting point is 00:31:21 you get married, it's like an adult coronation and you are like set for life. And, you know, people talk about the relationship escalator, right? You meet someone, you move in, you get married, you have kids. But no one really talks about like what happens at the very top of the elevator after that or escalator after that. I think what people need to remember is like, you might be more obsessed with getting a wedding than you are a marriage. So think about what that would actually mean. And happiness is also not a destination. It's, you know, it's. of feeling and feelings are temporary. They arc and they dip and then they come back up again, right? And so I think this idea that like marriage is going to like make you 100% happier all

Starting point is 00:32:04 the time. I mean, that's unrealistic to say about anything. Well, and I also, it makes me think about the Oscar syndrome or the Olympic medal syndrome where when people accomplish these things that they've put up on a pedestal their entire lives, they're actually more sad afterward because before they could tell themselves, when I get the Oscar, when I get all this money, when I get married, I'll finally be happy. And then when that doesn't prove true, they're like, well, what do I even go for? Like, what's my motivation now? Yeah. It's so, because it's so temporary that moment. The event is more temporary and then there's so much life in between those things. This framework that I learned from Dr. Pujailashman, who wrote Real Self-Care, she's this idea of

Starting point is 00:32:41 like, goals versus values. And she's like, yeah, getting an Oscar, getting married, these are goals, winning the Olympic medal, that's a goal. And you're automatically going to get that goal or you're not. But if you're thinking about, okay, what are my values under that goal? Like, why do I actually want that? You can start to see there's a lot more flexibility about how to express those values. So if you're like, okay, I want to get married. Okay, well, why? Well, I value security or stability or I value community and connection and being an interdependent. It's like, okay, well, once you see those values on the table, there's a lot of other ways you can get to those values in your life rather than this one thing, right? So then becomes more flexible. And I think that's just a kinder, easier way to then build up your life in a more sustainable way rather than betting it all in black.

Starting point is 00:33:30 Well, and then you can seek after those values instead of just the one goal, which gets you into the what the harmonious. Harmony's passion, yeah, exactly. That gets you more into the harmonious passion because you're just trying to all these different ways to address. achieve these values instead of being focused on this one obsessive thing. Yeah, exactly. We started off the podcast sort of talking about the stories we're told and you're like, the princess and the fairy tale and all of that. And it's interesting because we're being told a whole different set of stories that we've never been told before societally, which is via social media. We're watching so many people live out their lives. And I've noticed this interesting

Starting point is 00:34:02 phenomenon happening on social media where even though I believe the research still shows people are getting, like it's been a continuous curve of people getting married later and later and later. I think it's 28. Yeah, it's roughly that now. Okay. But on social media, there is this glamorizing of young women who have all of these babies, these beautiful lives. And these in a lot of ways are the people that were elevating as these superstar influencers.

Starting point is 00:34:29 And I'm curious, one, if you've seen that trend and what you think about it. And two, what you think, I don't know, being exposed to these types of stories instead of the Disney princess stories. Like what is the impact of social media on how we approach relationships, how we approach being single, how we think about what a good life looks like. Yeah, I have seen those influencers. I also wonder, it's like it kind of comes back to this idea about partnership as an economic gain because I'm guessing a lot of these influencers are getting brand deals right as a result. And like there is money to be made as a result of glamorizing your young married motherhood,

Starting point is 00:35:05 right? It kind of comes back to this idea that marriage can be like a. an economic haven at times for people. Wait, that's so interesting because social media tends to, like the algorithms have literally been shown like if you are stereotypically attractive, if you are young, if you have blonde hair, the algorithms literally favor you. They're incredibly racist algorithms by and large. And so if we're favoring that, and then those are people who are, it's almost like if you're

Starting point is 00:35:33 a hot young mom, you're going to be more favored by the algorithm. And then the culture will elevate that concept. as a result of that. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah, because then it glamorizes and makes it feel like you have to not just be married, but also like have a perfect face of makeup on and like make the cereal from scratch, right? To then be like a good or happy mom. And oh, that just feels the comparison and despair kind of cycle just like picks up even more. I mean, there's always been a kind of, you know, keeping up with the Joneses when it comes to marriage or the status that bring that the marriage has. It does seem like it's putting it even.

Starting point is 00:36:09 on this higher tippy top pedestal that's like even farther away and creating more of like a gap in way. Well, and what I'm seeing is I feel like in my generation, I'm 38, I had more and more friends who are like getting married later and all of that. And now I have friends in their like late 20s who feel behind already who are like I should already be married, have these cute kids, have this beautiful home, this beautiful life because those are the people that they're seeing online. But then like, do you, I was your next question like, but do you actually want that? It's like, yeah, we get so used to seeing now with social media a variety of different lives, which is wonderful. And like I feel like I've learned so much as a result of social media and like learning about different people's lives.

Starting point is 00:36:49 It's the new way of tricking you into thinking about what you want. Do you think awareness is the way that we combat that? Yeah. It's like, I mean, not to sound like a broken record about mindfulness, but really pausing and being like, what am I noticing about like how my body's reacting and to seeing this? Is this actually something that would feel like nourishing my life? depleting in my life? Like, what stories are, am I, like, feeding in to support this idea that getting married super young is the right way for everybody? So, yeah, awareness, you know, it's the name it to tame it thing, right? It's like understanding this is what's being pushed,

Starting point is 00:37:23 do I actually want it? And you might. And you might really still want it. And that's okay for some people, right? But yeah, taking that beat and being like, is this a message I'm hearing? Is this a voice that is genuinely and authentically coming from inside me or is it coming from outside of me? I also love the Pooja trick, which we have an episode with her. I will link it in the show notes. She's phenomenal. But I love that in that moment of being like, what are the values that this is highlighting in me and trying to be a detective essentially and get really, really specific?

Starting point is 00:37:51 Like, do I want comfort? Do I want companionship? Do I want to be surrounded by beautiful things, which is a value? I interviewed Professor Susie Welch and she talked about how wanting to be in a beautiful life surrounded by beautiful things is a real value. and often we dismiss it as like petty or shallow or whatever, but maybe that's what you want. And then can we figure out alternative ways to get that?

Starting point is 00:38:11 Exactly. Let's talk about the perception thing, because you did mention wanting to be seen a certain way and wanting to be perceived as successful or desirable or all of these things plays into this conversation in a big way. And I think about a lot. There was an interview with Trevor Noah, and he was talking about how,

Starting point is 00:38:32 even though he's so successful, he's super famous, he's very financially successful, all these things. People in the world at large often are like, what's wrong with this guy? Because he's not married. Like there must be something intrinsically, deeply wrong with him because another human being hasn't chosen this person and said, like, you are the one. How do we move away from that on a societal level? And also, what can we do about that on an individual level? Yeah, I'll start with the individual, because obviously that's what we can mostly control, right? It's like, I think for me, when you are hearing that stuff, kind of remembering that that says way more about the person saying that than anything about your situation, right?

Starting point is 00:39:14 It's like, when I hear someone be like, oh, God, yeah, like, what's wrong with them? Like, I think on an individual level, it is questioning like, okay, why am I so interested in this? Like, married people and partner people have this perceived privacy that single people are not as afforded, where we do think like, well, like, what's going on your dating life? Like, we're like getting like, really, you know, graphic stories about people's sex lives because they're single. And like, because we just assume it's like, well, you're not married. It's not like, you know, you're not in this like private union. Show me what you got.

Starting point is 00:39:45 Like lay it out all in the table. So even just, you know, acknowledging that, like, you know, single people have a right to privacy as well too. I mean, you know, putting Trevor Noah aside, but like there might be a reason, quote unquote, a reason why someone might not be having the relationship they want. right? There could be very real things they're working through. But yeah, there is this like question of like, how do we fix this person or what is really going on there? I mean, that's human interests. I think that's, there's nothing inherently wrong with saying like, oh, I wonder why they don't have a partner right now or they're not dating anyone. But then when it becomes like the only thing you focus on about another person, I think that's the time to stop and say, like, why am I so obsessed with this? What about my relationships?

Starting point is 00:40:26 how do I view partnership and how is it affecting how I think of other people's worth? It's this idea. It's called a motto-normativity that comes from this philosopher, Elizabeth Brake at Rice University, this idea that we are also conditioned to make romantic connections the only important type of relationship that it discounts friendships, mentorship, all the different types of connections like we've talked about that make up a healthy life. And it's this default. And, you know, she talks about this idea that when you meet someone, and you say, oh, like, you're married. Like, do you have a family?

Starting point is 00:40:59 Like, we don't mean, like, do you have a mom and a dad, an aunt and a sister? We mean, do you have kids? It's a really narrow way of being like, this is how you fit into this box. And this is how I need to put you in, like, okay, you're one of them now. Like, you are, but we, but like everyone has a family. It's like almost a categorization thing. Exactly. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:18 So, like, with Trevor Noah, the reason for the judgment could be because we are not able to categorize him. And that drives us nuts. Yeah, exactly. Your brain's kind of, your brain loves a complete sentence. And so it's like, well, he has everything going from. Why isn't it like, why isn't it clicked in? But the reality is like, there's a lot of reasons why people aren't dating or just not in a relationship now.

Starting point is 00:41:41 And all these like myths of why people are single, right? Like they're too picky. They're too strongheaded or they won't like, they're too intimidating, rather. All these ideas that we throw at single people about why they might not be in a relationship. I think it's helpful to invert that and be like, maybe the reason. they're single is actually for some really good reasons that they're you're picking themselves or you know not settling for something that would be not what they deserve right there's like if we could just invert all these like harmful ways that we talk about single people pushing them into

Starting point is 00:42:11 partnerships that maybe are not for them or really not for them be like oh maybe you're single because you're making some really good healthy choices for yourself i have a girlfriend too i think she's like the best single person that i know she's living this phenomenal life and she said a quote to me and I wrote it down because I thought it was so interesting. She said, no woman is single in our 30s for any reason other than she values and loves herself because she could easily not be single if she were willing to settle. Framing being single as like that's because I value myself. That's because I love myself. I could go out there and just find somebody. Like there's there's a lot of people out there to choose from and many people do choose to settle. Yeah. Like you're saying it's very easy to find someone. Like if you have no standards, And you are happy with anything and you will put up with anything. I think that's where that frustration comes in for a lot of people of like, I'm high value. I have a lot to offer, but I'm not feeling that back right now. And that's frustrating, right?

Starting point is 00:43:09 Because people want connection. So if you are in that situation thinking about like, oh, actually picking my solitude and a full life that is not threatened by someone like, you know, kind of flipping the proverbial table on me all the time or catching me. off guard and making my life worse is really, you know, I think it's really wonderful. I mean, like, it's a common thing I hear on social media a lot, but with heterosexual relationships is that men are not the competition for each other when they are dating a woman. It's they're competing against a woman's solitude, which I think is an incredible way to think about it now. Oh, that's interesting. Almost the more comfortable you get with your solitude, the more of a high quality partner you'll get. Oh, yeah. You won't be settling in that.

Starting point is 00:43:56 Exactly. I see it happen. Yeah. What are your best tips for becoming comfortable with our solitude? Oh, okay. So I love this tool called, it's from dialectical behavior therapy. It's called the ABCs. And it's basically about how you can build up like positive emotion. A is accumulating positives. B is building mastery and then C is coping ahead. And all of these are small like everyday things you can do to just kind of build up your like positivity reserves. So accumulating positives, it's as easy as it sounds. It's not. noticing the good things in life, even when they're really small. It's this idea also of like savoring. That's really important in the concept of resilience. So you got to see a friend that you normally don't and had a really nice conversation with them, like savoring that, accumulating that positive. It doesn't have to be like material, but like, you know, if you're like every Friday, I get this one special latte from my favorite coffee shop, like that kind of thing. Or it could be as simple as I saw my dog go up to another cute dog on the street and wasn't that like a special moment. So just noticing things that are positive in your life,

Starting point is 00:44:55 even if they are like dead simple. Building mastery, kind of similar, but it's really more of that feeling of I feel like I'm accomplishing something or I'm like moving, I just feel good doing something. It could be as simple as, hey, I paid that bill that I've been putting off for like a few weeks. I love crafting. I got really into sewing in the last few years. And I'm not like amazing at it, but like I was like, oh, I can read a sewing pattern. Like I've built this skill up now that I didn't have a year ago, a year plus ago. I can make a full dress from scratch. Like that feels good. And then there's C coping ahead. So it's kind of like a mental rehearsal. It's not necessarily practicing exactly what you're going to say in a situation, but it's more like just gaining confidence

Starting point is 00:45:34 about how you're going to move through it. So let's say you are always frustrated when you go to family functions and you have this one family member that's always on your case about dating. It's not about saying like, hey, Aunt Linda, like back off. I mean, you can. But it's more about like imagining yourself just like nailing it, almost like a silent movie. You're like, I handled that with poise and ease and just even just like mentally rehearsing. that feeling is kind of like building up your confidence to be like, I can do this. So accumulating positives, building mastery, coping ahead. It's this really lovely tool that you can do even if you're not single right to feel good about building up this like positivity in your

Starting point is 00:46:12 everyday life so that when negative things do happen, you can kind of, it's easier to have it slide off your back or to like to regulate when they're thrown your way rather than like kind of fall apart at the seams. It's interesting because I think there are a lot of really difficult things about being coupled that people don't talk about. Yeah. And it's kind of like a choose your heart and you should be really comparing likes to likes. I think sometimes we compare the rosiest view of a relationship to the hardest view of being single and we're like, well, I want the rosiest view. And we don't think about all of the unique challenges that come with a relationship. And there are some very real and unique challenges

Starting point is 00:46:49 to being single, both financially, pragmatically, like, moving. by yourself is so hard. Everything's so expensive, all these things. So can you talk to some of those challenges and can you also tell us maybe some strategies to deal with them? Specifically about the finance stuff or just getting help. The real challenges of being single. Like there are the singles tax.

Starting point is 00:47:11 That's a real thing. And so it's both like I want to zoom out and say, and there's real challenges of being partnered so that people aren't just like, okay, well, the solution is to get a partner. Right. But I also don't want to not address. the real challenges being single. Totally, absolutely. The daily life stuff, I think, is the thing that can really wear and tear on single people. Like we're talking about, like, paying a lot more for housing. Just like, if you have to get groceries, you are the person who have to get groceries. Like,

Starting point is 00:47:39 no one else is going to help with that. I would say knowing, like, what is the things that come easy to you and, like appreciate that that comes easy. Like cooking, for instance, for me. Like, never, bothers me to cook. I love doing it. It's very nourishing for me. But for some people, like, that is taxing. So thinking about like what's like the depleting task and like how can you thoughtfully bring in other people from your life. Now obviously like it'd be great if someone came over every single night we'd cook with you a partnership. But maybe it's not that far fetch. Like maybe that's maybe you become friends with people in your neighborhood. And it's like we're just going to make a really simple dinner every Sunday night. And like so you have a little bit of

Starting point is 00:48:16 leftovers or something like think of creative ways to make the care of your life a little bit more enjoyable. And I always feel like the answer is to like invite more people in. And it doesn't have to be someone who's super close. Like I used to live in this neighborhood in D.C. where we had a lot of dogs in building. And my next door neighbors were really kind. They were a married couple. And they would always offer to watch my dog because they were obsessed with her. They also love dachshund. So that was a nice connection point. So I was like, oh, amazing. And then that gave me the courage to then when a dog on the street really liked my dog, I was like, can I get your number? You also live nearby. You live alone. She wasn't single, but she lived alone.

Starting point is 00:48:55 And so we would trade dog care all the time. So like, see how other people are modeling kindness towards you if that's happening and then see how you can do it to other people because it's kind of this beautiful, virtuous circle that can happen. What you put out there can come back to you as well. So I would say like, yeah, getting really creative about ways you can make the tasks that you really dread a little bit easier, a little bit more enjoyable, but either bringing more people in.

Starting point is 00:49:17 If you have the financial means, obviously, you know, throw the money at it. If you don't, like we're saying, being singles can be. really expensive. So thinking about this is my life kit brain coming on, but like, you know, the biggest part of your budget is sometimes the way to make the biggest changes rather than like looking at all your subscriptions and things like that, all the tiny things being like, do I actually want a roommate, right? Like, you know, I think we do have a lot, especially in America, you see more successful if you like have your own place, live on your own or live with a partner, right? Like maybe it would, a lot of these things could be solved by living with a friend that you

Starting point is 00:49:50 really love, right? Or like joining a community that's a lot more. communal. Like, that could then also solve a lot of the things that feel taxing to you as well. So, yeah, there's like the very practical things in singleness that, yeah, you're right, just doesn't get talked about enough because it's, again, it feels like it's like you're kind of toiling way in this, this private, this privacy, right, of like, you know, your to do list. But other people, you would be surprised, are more willing to help you than you think. Yeah. And I do think we need to talk about it because otherwise people just feel like they're suffering by themselves. Yeah, we see this all the time with child care.

Starting point is 00:50:25 People feel like this is like the only way I can ever get someone to help me with a kid is to be like a direct partner, family member, or I pay them. And the reality is there can be flexibility if you're creative about it. The number one rule of habits is to make the things that you want easier and the things that you don't want harder. Yet so many of us want to eat healthier, but so few of us actually take the steps to make eating healthier easier. That's where Marley Spoon comes in.

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Starting point is 00:56:35 I think that it's really beneficial to seek out connection from people who are going through similar life stages as you, right? Marissa Franco, I know you've had on the show who wrote the wonderful book Platonic about friendship. She talked to me about this idea of transitioners, like, looking for other people who are going through similar like life stages and life transitions as you, because they're often the people who are more open to friendship. So like when you move to a new city, look for other people who move to that city. Exactly. Other people who just got a new job, other people who are going through a divorce, right? It's kind of like wandering through a maze where you feel like you're the only person in there and then you turn the corner and you're like, oh my God, thank God,

Starting point is 00:57:12 you're here. You run into someone, right? It's like a relief because, look, I love talking to, you know, my best friend about a topic, but she might not always, like, no, she can empathize and be really supportive and she has been, but like, you know, there's times where you're just like, well, you really want to talk to someone who's like in the thick of it with you, right? But also be prepared for that to change. I think that's another kind of grief that can happen with a lot of single people is that

Starting point is 00:57:35 they have a single partner or a single friend, right? And then that person meets someone and they, what the internet says is going to boyfriend island, right? Like you never see them again. You're like, oh, wait, that person actually was just kind of like thought this was a waiting room. So finding people who will like stick with you for these life moments and, you know, seeing that like friendship can be for like seasons as well, right? I think that singles should always seek out other single people to feel like also like kind of like a safe space with, right? like where they don't feel like anyone's asking them questions about dating life that they don't want to hear anything like that. But yeah, we all want to feel seen. Like for instance, like my father died over 20 years ago now or almost 20 years ago now. And every time I meet people now who or a friend is going through a death of a parent, I write them a letter, a handwritten letter now to be like, you're part of this unfortunate club. I see you. Maybe you didn't know this about me, but here's my story. Here's what I found helpful. And it's just a way to like be like, like, we get each other. And that is a always so powerful, I think. Where are we finding all these cool single friends?

Starting point is 00:58:40 Keep your eyes open, right? I'm definitely an anomaly, I think. I love making friends. I feel like I will show up to a wedding alone and come home with three new friends. It almost occurs to me and if we're like all these different life paths are valid options, you could ask your friends instead of being like, oh, do you know any great partners to set me up with? Do you know any good friends? Do you know any good friends to send me? Yeah, exactly. I mean, you kind of can treat it almost like platonic dating. I mean, the other thing, too, is, like, just be the starter, right? Like, I think that's very powerful as well, where I've never been invited to a party or a coffee date or anything like that from a, you know, a platonic connection and never been like, gross. Like, why are they invited me?

Starting point is 00:59:17 Like, I'm immediately flattered, right? And so I think a lot of people resist making that overture to a new friend because they're like, they don't, they just assume too much what they think this person is going to do or think of them. But people are, like, thrilled when you invite them. And, you know, I think just kind of always trying, right, like being like, hey, you mentioned, if this is someone at work, like, you mentioned, like, you really like that movie. Like, I'm having, like, some another friend over to watch that same director do this other film that we love. Like, if you want to come over, again, I love cooking. I'm like, I have extra food. Do you want to come over? We're all going to this thing. You know, just like always, like, put it out there

Starting point is 00:59:53 because you never know what's, like, going to come back. And yeah, like, maybe it's a short-term connection of friendship. But then you'll be surprised what you find. Like, for instance, I write by this in the book. A few summers ago, I was at a D.C. public pool. And I saw someone who I've known for years at work, but we were never like super close. And I saw them in the pool and I was like, had my book. And I was like, I could just read my book and not talk to her. Right. But I was like, actually, I'm going to literally wait into the waters here and like make a bid for connection. And I was like, hey, like, how are you? I was like, how is your boyfriend? And she's like, oh, we broke up, you know, a month ago. And I was like, oh, perfect. Like, this is another

Starting point is 01:00:27 single person I can hang with now. And I invited her at concerts and we would go to the pool all summer together. And it just became a really perfect friendship just because I thought, hey, what's the worst that could happen? I'm just going to say hi and connect. I'd love to talk about the particular type of grief that comes from having a friend and then having them get into a relationship and essentially disappear from your life. How do we deal with that? And how do we not be the type of person who does that. Yes. So another dialectical behavior therapy tool I love is radical acceptance. It's essentially like noticing when you are resisting, feeling resistance against something. It's not to say don't be sad, you know, move on. It's done. It's to kind of reset and notice what reality is

Starting point is 01:01:16 actually happening in front of you and then making a choice. So the way that you practice it is when you're noticing a big resistance to a feeling, you're like, man, I'm so annoyed that this friend has really ditched me and you're kind of fuming and you're feeling like all the gears of rumination turning is to pause be like, I'm noticing that I'm resisting. How do I feel my body? And how can I remind myself, this is exactly how things are right now. And it's, again, not to accept a harmful or abusive situation. It's just to acknowledge what is your reality right now? Take a beat and kind of also give your body and your head a moment to like kind of come down to earth and ground and then make a choice. Now, the hard thing in that situation is you either have to have a tough conversation

Starting point is 01:02:02 with that friend, which more people should have, be like, hey, you know, I really miss hanging out with you. I noticed that you're making less time for our friendship when, you know, you started dating so-and-so. Could we meet up a little bit more regularly? Could we just text more regularly or something and see what happens? Or the other thing is, like, maybe you let that person go off and kind of, you kind of wait for them to come back to you. That's hard, I know. But then turning to, again, being like, what other connections are in my life that I can nurture? Now, how do you not be that person, right? I honestly think it is about remembering your own personhood within a relationship and not have the default be, well, I'm just going to, you know, do everything with my partner.

Starting point is 01:02:45 Every social situation is going to be with my partner. Coming together, you know, with them is, you know, really can be really beautiful and wonderful and like you're with them for a reason hopefully, right? But making sure you think about the connections in your life that you had before you were in that relationship and being intentional, reaching out, nurturing them, making sure you see them on their own, bringing them into your life. Again, like it's kind of the rules we were talking about earlier about how married people can and partner people can, you know, support their single friends is like remembering your own hobbies and your own interests and experiencing yourself in a relationship outside of that relationship too, and then bringing in your friend and

Starting point is 01:03:23 trying to, you know, things won't be exactly the same, right? Like you'll have it, you'll be going through a different, you know, life stage. Maybe you're moving in with them. Maybe you're getting married, but not have that be the only type of conversation you have. Because so often we have these friendships now where we're just like recounting what we did the last, since the last time we saw them. And I know you're big about this. Creating novelty, making memories with friends again. And focusing a friendship on that, as well as being supportive and being there for them, I think is going to feel beneficial to both people in that situation. Do you think as it becomes more and more possible to be single from financial components, all of that, and more enjoyable to be single, that people are going to get too picky and never kind of end up in relationships? Like, do you see negative societal drawbacks to this changed framework?

Starting point is 01:04:11 You know, I really don't. I don't think that society benefits from people not doing things that feel authentic to them. And when you feel more like yourself and not resisting something, like being in a relationship you don't want to be in or dating when you don't want to date, you can feel just so much more at ease. And I do think like, yeah, like I would love to see as more people kind of think about this idea that they do become more selective about who they actually want to give their time to and their. energy too. And I think benefiting from your own solitude and honoring your own partnership makes you productive in these ways that feel, I think, that just lead to like a fuller life, maybe not necessarily, you know, making more money. For some people it is like, I really want to focus on my business or what have you. But maybe you just see, oh, I was so focused on dating or investing in

Starting point is 01:05:06 this person I didn't really care for, but I thought I should be caring for. And I didn't realize that I actually really love this really enriching hobby or like I was not writing as much or I wasn't as involved with my own like family as much as I wanted to be. I think it's just going to help people see more all the different types of lives that they can lead and different values that they can express on the daily and yeah, maybe be a little bit more selective but I think that's kind of radical and cool. There's another idea that you talked about which was instead of thinking about living life linearly. We should think about living life. It was getting, life getting wider and deeper, I think. And I really love that framework. Can you talk about that for a second? Yeah. I had this

Starting point is 01:05:49 epiphany a few years ago that I could have two potential lives, right? Like, I could either be mostly single for a lot of my, the rest of my life, or I might meet someone. It might be in five years. I might be in 20 years, who knows. But I was like, I have to be ready for both of those realities to be as amazing as they can be. Because right now, I am so focused on life looking like this linear line from I got the college degree. I got the good job. I got the apartment. I got the dog. Now I need the husband and the kid. Right? Like, just like the one to one to one. And instead, I was like, oh, what if I was like actually preparing for any type of life I could possibly have, but making it really wide and deep and really invest in friendships and my community

Starting point is 01:06:40 and my family's life and my hobbies and just be really continually curious about the world and really shrink the part of me that feels really bad that I don't have a partner and to be solely focused on dating because dating was just taking so much of my energy and my emotional headspace that it was, I still had all these other things in my life, but I wasn't noticing how wonderful they really were. It wasn't until like a few years ago, I was like, wow, this is actually a really special time in my life, and I've been kind of taking it for granted for a long time, because I was so narrow track focused on how it was supposed to go. But the more good you add into your life, the bigger your life feels. It doesn't have to be the super big life events that's

Starting point is 01:07:27 nice and driving toward those things, but just enjoying a fleeting warm summer, or that's not humid day in D.C. where I live with my friends, like having a laugh, watching my dog, like, you know, just be super cute on, you know, on my roof while I read a book and enjoy that time. There's so much more joy that you can find if you just kind of lift your head up. What would you say to people who listen to this podcast or read your book and are like, that's all fine, but like if she could be in a relationship, she definitely would be. Like this is all just her trying to comfort herself for the life she's been handed. What would you say to them?

Starting point is 01:08:00 Well, I would say that a funny thing happened on the way to me writing this book was then I sold the book. I wrote it. And then as I was writing, I actually did get into a long-term partnership. Yeah. So I actually say that like the book itself was kind of like, I joke it's my capstone in a way on singleness. But the more I was like getting deep into the book and then also into this relationship that became very serious, I was like, oh, I still need all of these skills. Like, these are still super important

Starting point is 01:08:32 for a very full life because I love my partner deeply. He can't process my emotions for me. He can't get inside my head and talk me down from a remunative state. He can be really supportive and he is. But I also want to make sure that I have hobbies and things that, again, that deep, wide life. And we're both very intentional about making sure that we bring in single, our people, our single friends into our life, that we support them, that we help them out, that we have friends outside of each other. And I feel like my life has become better for it. You know, this idea that, you know, most research is me search. And so yeah, I did want to like kind of crack why it was feeling so hard for me because I knew in my head it was wonderful and valid to be

Starting point is 01:09:15 single. And I felt that a lot of the time, too. I don't want to make it sound like it was all doom and gloom. But I was like, how do I bridge my head and my heart that are having this disconnect? Once I was able to like really put it into paper into words about all these skills that are actually like super helpful for how I got through singleness, I was like, oh, now that I'm in the first real long-term relationship of my life, I was like, oh, wow, everyone needs this. So yes, I totally hear the potential criticism or pushback of, oh, she's just trying to make herself feel better until she gets a partnership. But I also, you know, know now that a good partnership, a lot of the basics come easy, right? But like, staying really

Starting point is 01:09:53 intentional about being community focused, even a relationship, that takes energy and attention. And so I'm really grateful that I was able to dig really deep into this research in this one very substantial part of my life as I was going through this transition because, again, I just want to like shout out from the rooftops. Like, destigmatizing singleness is something that benefits everybody. Yeah. That's my My core takeaway is one, I completely agree with you. I think that the tools that are in your book that are around embracing singleness are so important for every single person on the planet. And if we de-stigmatize singleness, it gives people in relationships options. I just think about I have so many friends who are in relationships making them deeply unhappy, but because they think the worst thing in the world is being single, they won't leave them.

Starting point is 01:10:42 And I do think that giving people those options, giving people that agency and power back is so, so important. Yeah. And feeling agency feels good, right? Yeah. No, it's one of the like core things that makes us feel good in our lives. Exactly. Yeah. So it just makes perfect sense to me, but I know everyone has to find their own path to it. Yeah. So I'm happy for my book to be that resource, hopefully. Can you give us one homework assignment along those lines? Maybe it's not for single people directly, but for embracing the qualities, the beneficial qualities of singleness, regardless of. of our romantic state. Yeah. I think finding like your solitude style is really helpful. It's something that I talk about in the book where there's this difference between feeling alone

Starting point is 01:11:22 versus lonely. Like loneliness is when you're having an active dissatisfaction with being alone. And it's very harmful, as we know, from all the research. But alone is just you happen to be alone, right? Like you don't feel negative about it. And solitude is a state of recharge. And it's a very positive emotion and state to be in. So I think understanding that when you feel lonely, it's not that you're bad or like your life is in shambles or anything like that. It's your body trying to tell you, hey, you need to seek out social connection. So being in tune with that and then going into seeking out connection, like texting a friend, calling someone, scheduling something that you know is going to uplift you. I think stigmatizes then the shame that can come around loneliness and getting what you need and kind of making it almost like a biological signal akin to like hunger or thirst, right, to make you just be like, oh, this is just something my body needs. And then on the flip side of that, like enjoying and practicing a solitude, like a solitude style could be that you're working on a creative project, right?

Starting point is 01:12:28 Like, I love movies. And so in the pandemic, I was spending a lot of time at home with my dog just watching movies. But I was like, I'm going to watch trilogies. And so I got really into a lot of trilogies. And then when I was sitting six feet apart in a park with someone, I'd be like, hey, I'm doing this project. I'm talking, and I would, you know, it would engage me and bring people in. So it was fun to use my solitude style to then, like, when I was with people or having connection, yeah, it fueled, like, more conversation and things like that. Or like, I'm a big fan of the idea of the artist's way, right? This idea of, like, doing morning pages or this idea of taking yourself on an artist state, just putting new input into your brain, like going to a thrift shop and just kind of

Starting point is 01:13:08 seeing what kind of kooky things are there that you might inspire you for your art or taking yourself out to a museum. There's actually research shows that we actually enjoy museums, art museums more when we're on our own than when we go with other people. Interestingly enough. Why do you think that is? I think it's because there's less social performance of being like, oh, yes, the Monet. I know all about him. And I can tell you all the art history facts I know. But then also I think you can use solitude, again, as a way to prep for social time.

Starting point is 01:13:36 like things like loving kindness meditation, like, which is a way to, you know, think about sending love to people. It makes you feel more connected and part of a bigger whole, but you're still sitting alone doing that, right? Or just like, if you have a really hard time with solitude, engaging your hands, like gardening, sewing, crocheting, cooking, like these are all things that we don't necessarily think of as being alone time all the time. But people are doing things alone or in solitude all the time, but when there's a social, like, expectation that you should be doing with someone else. That's when we kind of get freaked out and we're like, oh, shoot, like, I should do something else. Try to find your solitude style. Even if it's like for really small bouts,

Starting point is 01:14:18 it is, you see how it is resortive and nourishing is my biggest piece of advice, because I think just being able to sit with yourself is a real beautiful practice. And I think that's where a lot of life and awakenings about yourself can also happen. these kinds of moments where you're not being obsessed with who you're trying to date or like, oh, God, like I have to make the grocery list before my partner goes out or whatever. Like sitting with yourself and just kind of your let yourself be kind of opens you up to all this beautiful poetic parts of life and imagination. The thing I want to tease out that I love that you did is you took an activity that's

Starting point is 01:14:55 pretty benign like watching movies and you kind of, the difference between I'm just doing this thing and I'm like kind of making it a project or a hobby is so tiny, but sometimes we won't take that stuff. Like, I love cooking. I'm going to cook my way through this cookbook. Exactly. I love movies. I'm going to dive into trilogies and have this thing to talk about. And I always, I do think it's such an unlock and I encourage people to look for that thing that they can take something they're already doing and just like tip it a little bit more intentional. Yeah, totally. And then it can also bring in some of like that novelty, right? Where if you're like, I'm going to cook my way through this bookbook, maybe you find a recipe or a technique that you never would have otherwise. And you're just kind of like building to this bigger life again. You know, it's more fun just to be like I'm doing a project. Rather than like I'm just running on Netflix. You don't feel like you're wasting time. You feel like you're using time, which I think is really different. Can you tell us a little bit in your own words about your wonderful book? Sure. So party of one, be your own best life partner is basically a self-help. book about how we all can think about our relationship with ourselves, which is the longest relationship we're ever going to have. So it starts with, you know, demystifying a lot of myths about love and relationships and marriage, but also the really internal gills of how can we

Starting point is 01:16:08 talk to ourselves better, how can we regulate our emotions? And then looking outward about how do you actually like build a life that's value space that you actually want to live and how do you bring more people into it? So it's really a way to, say, hey, it's your party. How are you going to design it? Love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat today. I love this. Oh, good. Thank you, Liz. I really appreciate it. There are two things you can do right now that make a huge difference in the success of the show, and they are both free. First, follow the podcast on Spotify or Apple or YouTube or wherever

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Starting point is 01:17:15 There's a full list of them at lizmoody.com slash codes. And if you want practice, takeaways from today's episode, head over to lizmoody.substack.com. You will get exclusive content like challenges, meal plans, bonus expert interviews. We recently just shared our monthly favorites. Those were things that my whole team bought or listened to or learned that changed our lives. And there's some really fun ideas in there. So definitely check it out. And of course, come hang out with me on Instagram. I'm at Liz Moody. I share tons of behind the scenes of my life. I share the ways that I'm using the tools that we learn about in these episodes in my real life. And I share a lot of vulnerable intimate content.

Starting point is 01:17:55 So come hang out there. That's at Liz Moody. All right. I love you. I am so honored that you chose to spend this time with me today. I know that you could be listening to thousands of podcasts out there. And it is never lost in me that you choose to listen to this podcast. I appreciate you.

Starting point is 01:18:10 And I will see you on the next episode of the Liz Moody podcast. Oh, just one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for education. and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, a psychotherapist, or any other qualified professional.

The Liz Moody Podcast - The Marriage Myth: When Science Favors Being Single

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