The Liz Moody Podcast - Tools For Tackling Money Fears & Building Your Best Financial Future with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Farnoosh Torabi discusses how to use psychology to your advantage to overcome money anxiety & create a healthy relationship with your finances. the pros and pitfalls being the primary breadwinner AND being a stay at home parent why women have more money anxiety than men, from a historical perspective  3 things to do today to be more financially secure the number one thing you should do if you want to be as rich as possible the most common money fears people have (and exactly how to address each one) how to not feel like your self-worth is defined by your net-worth how to get over feeling unsafe or uncertain about your financial future the RIGHT way to be afraid of money (yes, there is one!) how to tackle money fears that are out of your control (inflation, recession, job loss, etc) what to do when you’re in a different financial situation than your friends exactly how to know if a big financial risk is worth taking  and so much more!  For more from Farnoosh Torabi, you can find her on Instagram at @farnooshtorabi and her website farnoosh.tv. Farnoosh hosts the podcast So Money, and her newest book A Healthy State of Panic: Follow Your Fears to Build Wealth, Crush Your Career, and Win at Life can be purchased at major retailers. To join The Liz Moody Podcast Club Facebook group, go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/thelizmoodypodcast. Ready to uplevel every part of your life? Pre-order my new book 100 Ways to Change Your Life: The Science of Leveling Up Health, Happiness, Relationships & Success now!  This episode is sponsored by: ARMRA: go to tryarmra.com/LIZMOODY or enter LIZMOODY to get 15% off your first order. Seed: go to seed.com/lizmoody and use code LIZMOODY for 25% off your first month. AG1: visit http://drinkag1.com/lizmoody and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 free travel packs today.  Paleovalley: go to paleovalley.com/lizmoody for 15% off your order. The Liz Moody Podcast cover art by Zack. The Liz Moody Podcast music by Alex Ruimy. Formerly the Healthier Together Podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Liz Moody podcast. Formerly known as the Healthier Together podcast, we are the same podcast, but with even more of everything you love. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I'm a best-selling author and longtime journalist. This podcast is all about helping you live your healthiest, happiest life, whether we're hearing pet health tips from a top veterinarian, learning neuroscience hacks to control anxiety, or having conversations about the pros and cons of having kids. And yes, those are all real episodes.

of those topics sound good to you, scroll on back in the archives. Today, I am so excited to welcome Farnoosh Tarabi to the podcast. Farnoosh is one of America's leading personal finance authorities. She's a former CNBC host and the creator of the Webby-nominated podcast, So Money, and her work and advice have been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, and many more. She's written a number of amazing books, and her newest one is called a healthy state of panic. Follow your fears to build wealth, crush, your career and win it life. It was just published, so definitely go grab your copy after listening to this episode. This episode is all about overcoming money anxiety, which is something that I

personally have struggled with a ton over the years. I love doing money episodes. The more that we know about this stuff, first of all, the more we can assuage that anxiety, but also the more that we can make and keep the money that we deserve, especially as women. Literally just bringing these topics into the open is so key for making progress. So it is an absolute honor to get to have this conversation with you all and with Farnoosh today. We get into the pros and pitfalls of being the primary breadwinner and being a stay-at-home parent. Why women have more money anxiety than men from a historical perspective. Three things to do today to be more financially secure. The number one thing you should do if you want to be as rich as possible. The most common money fears that people have,

and exactly how to address each one. How to not feel like your self-worth is defined by your net worth. How to get over feeling unsafe or uncertain about your financial future. The right way to be afraid of money. Yes, there is one. How to tackle money fears about things that are out of your control, about things like inflation or recessions or job loss. What to do when you're in a different financial situation than your friends. Exactly how to know if a big financial risk is worth taking and so much more. As always, we would both love to hear your thoughts as you're listening, so definitely screenshot and tag us on Instagram. I am at Liz Moody and Farnoosh's at Farnoosh Torabi. And if Farnoose's advice resonates with you, please share this episode with a friend. It is the best way to support the

podcast and it's completely free, which we always love. Also, friends, a hundred ways to change your life comes out next week. If I'm being very honest, I am exhausted. Releasing a book into the world is no joke, but I'm also so, so, so excited for this book, this book that I am so proud of that I've worked so hard on for it to finally get into your hands. You can grab your book tour tickets at lizmoody.com slash tour. It's going to be a life-changing evening. You will make new friends. Solo guests are highly, highly encouraged. You will laugh a lot. You will love a lot. You will love. learn a lot. A ton of cities are already sold out, so please get on that ASAP and come join the fun. And if you haven't gotten a copy for pre-order yet, head to 100 Ways to Change Your Life.com.

Our $1,000 giveaway to an airline of your choice is ending on the 17th. This giveaway is for pre-orders only. So you only have one more week left to enter. Again, that is 100 ways to change your life.com. 100, Ways to Change Your Life.com. Oh my gosh. I am so excited. I cannot. I'm like tingly thinking about it. I cannot wait to hear what you think. Okay. Let's get right into tackling our money anxiety with the great Farnoosh Tarabi. Farnoosh, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. I'm so excited to dive into all of my money anxiety and hopefully all of the listeners money anxiety too so you can assuage all of our fears. Why do you just kick us off with what sparked your interest and relationship with money? I think that it's two things. One is that I grew up the daughter of Iranian immigrants

who came here and through their hard work and efforts got to see the fruits of your labor, but also what it means to save and be thoughtful about money. That said, not everything was always hunky-dory, my parents. One of the gifts, I think, was that they always talk. talked about money, which does not happen even to this day in many households. And I was exposed to a lot of their private conversations about money. Maybe they didn't know that I was in the room. Maybe they just didn't care. I was an only child for about 11 years. My brother was born later. But for those first 10 years of my life, we really struggled with money in some ways. My parents were really determined to achieve that American dream. And it required a lot.

My dad had multiple jobs. My mom worked various odd jobs. And that led to a lot of financial arguments, let's just say. My mother didn't ever feel completely financially independent in the marriage. I was in 99% of their arguments were over the control of money. My father basically having it. My mother feeling like she had none of it. And that was such an education because, one, I'm learning how people communicate around

money, the good and the bad, but also really that as a young girl growing up with hopes and dreams, I need to make my own money. And I will die on my sword encouraging women to be financially independent. And sometimes I get into trouble because I'm so passionate about that. But it's not what I want. I don't wish for anyone to not feel at least financially secure. What would you say to somebody who said, my dream, my entire life has been to be a mom, has been to stay home with my kids and not to have to participate in this capitalism system, is there solutions for that in your mind? I'm doing that in a way. I live that dream in some ways. For me, I always knew I wanted to be a mom. And I also knew I always wanted to prioritize my career, too.

And I think that generationally, we have evolved. I think that maybe our mothers and our grandmothers had to choose, frankly. It wasn't so easy for them to sort of juggle it all. And, have it all. Not that that's the goal or I'm not saying that that's like what I want everyone to have. All is hard. But I think as a young person today looking ahead saying, I want to be a present parent and also be fulfilled in a career, I think that's possible. It does require some planning. It requires some special engineering sometimes, a lot of saving. I knew in my 20s that if I I stayed in traditional media and corporate America while also trying to have a family, raise a family, that that would be difficult because I saw evidence of that.

I saw women leaving HR pregnant in tears because they were told, sorry, we don't really have a lot of maternity leave as it turns out. And you'll have to go on disability to make ends meet if you want to spend any more time with your children at home. And so I thought to myself, all right, I need to create a new blueprint. I got scared, fear can be a catalyst for, in some cases, rewriting the rules for yourself. When you don't see a reality mirrored for you that you want to aspire to, then maybe you have to sort of create it on your own.

And the earlier you can realize that, the better, because I started that in my mid-20s thinking, okay, I'm going to have to maybe become self-employed or work for an employer who's really, really generous or just move because I was living in New York City and it's so expensive. I have people who ask me all the time, should we have kids? Should we not? And it's so expensive. And I'm like, yeah, it is. No denying that.

In your life, there have to be some non-negotiables that you commit to, that anchor you. And what is a non-negotiable? It's basically something that defines your happiness and you will fight for it. You will go to the edge to fight for it. And for me, it was becoming a parent. I love having a career, but I love also being a mom. And I think those two things did compete. And I wasn't willing to give up either. So what's my roadmap from here on out? So the thing that you might be willing to give up is living in New York City. It's the realization that you can't have it all. But what are your actual priorities within that? Yeah, and have a plan B and a plan C because things hardly ever work out. And we sometimes get fixated on this dream. And then when that dream doesn't happen, we get disappointed.

But I always say, well, that dream wasn't real, frankly. Not to be rude, but that dream actually didn't happen. And so to be sad about it is not really a good use of your time. I mean, go out there and create a new reality. I am always hesitant, though, to tell people to start their own business to become self-employed because I think some people's personalities are so suited for that. And I think for other people, it's not. And then it's hard because I don't think our society is set up to support parents and particularly mothers.

What's the statistic that when you have a kid is a woman in the workplace, you fall behind seven years in your career? So I think it's a tricky thing to navigate. And I can see why so many people become state-at-home parents when they're like, well, the cost of child care is literally equal to my salary. So I'm curious if you have any pragmatic advice for navigating the complexities around that. I think it can be all good to say, you should do both. But our society sets it up to be really, really difficult to do both. Yes, absolutely. I have a lot of advice, especially.

for women and men who know early on that they want to be parents. And that's always helpful to sort of know what you want to do. Time helps so that you can start to plan for things. But even if you find yourself suddenly pregnant and realizing child care is exorbitant, you make what you make and that essentially is going to be an entire child care payment for a year. This is the math that a lot of families do. They do this like quick math. That calculus, while it's not wrong, I don't think it's fair to just focus on that. You want to also think about what am I giving up by not working today? And am I going to be okay with that? You will be giving up a future nest egg, the ability to invest maybe in a workplace retirement account, the ability

to collect social security, which will then help you in your later years, the ability to get back into the workforce with more ease. Because when you are out of the workforce for two, three, five years, it makes it that much more difficult to get back in. And so having said all that, I get people who are still resistant. They're like, I don't care. I have to live for today. I respect that there is maybe a scarier predicament, but what am I going to do now? And I'd say what you should do now is if you're not going to work, that's fine, but have a plan to get back in, have a plan to make some money. And if not, if you have a partner talking about the money together. So often when we're not the one working, we default to the role of not being financially

curious, not insisting on financial transparency. We don't feel like we have an equal financial say in the relationship. We need to put that aside and recognize that what you're doing as a full-time caregiver is so essential and so invaluable. I wish there was a world where we could actually pay mothers and fathers who don't work outside of the home. But until that day, we have to be our biggest advocates within our household and require that we are involved in financial decision-making and that our financial independence is also taken into consideration. So your spouse should have life insurance, right? Your spouse, you should together have savings and also your own savings. Is there a way for your partner who's bringing home the sole income paycheck to put aside some money for your financial well-being?

You're not getting an allowance. This isn't financial parenting. This isn't control. This is just your role is so invaluable to the functionality of our family and the health of our family. Of course, we need to protect you. Protecting you financially is just one way. It's not just a small way. It's one of the most important ways.

And then on the flip side, you've spoken a lot about the pitfalls and the best parts of being a woman who's the primary breadwinner. And I'm curious, what are some of the challenges of women making more money in their relationships that we don't talk about enough? Well, I can speak personally to this. And also, I've done a lot of research on this. Depending on what you want to find out about this, the study has been done. I think you know this. Depending on what your POV is, you'll find a study to back it up. I've seen everything from when she makes more, there is a higher probability for divorce,

higher probability for cheating on both sides. And if you look at some of the national studies around people's Americans' sentiment around household dynamics and who should be the primary earner, a majority of both men and women believe that it should be the man. I think that our society has evolved. We are living in quote unquote modern times, but we still have these prehistoric prefrontal cortex. We are still old in a sense that we are very much still clinging to these traditional patriarchal

ways of at least living our lives as couples. And we default so much to genderal expectations. And so it is great to see so many couples evolving. It just takes time. I see it in the Gen Zers where I don't think they have as many trip-ups around these gender role expectations. I hope that they'll be able to arrive in a relationship where it's not going to be taboo. Whoever makes more, whoever's not working, whoever is making less.

This is also the other thing is that you might be good in the relationship as. whatever economic dynamic there is, she makes more, he makes less, but you may have cultural pressures. There might be people at work, your friend group, your parents that are judging. And I know it's easy to be like, who cares? But you know, we all care. It matters. Relationships matter. They influence us. And my advice is for those in your life who don't get it, who might be suspicious or suspect, oh, how could you be happy? How could this work? What if you want to have kids? I've faced all the questions. is that you have to approach it with a lot of compassion and know that it's not about you,

it's about them. Because I find that whenever someone questions your life choices with a bit of, hmm, how does that work? It's interesting. I think it's really more a sign of their discomfort perhaps or their confusion over the choices they've made in their life and seeing you do something completely different. Well, it puts them in conflict. There's friction now in their minds around.

what they thought was the right way. And you're modeling something different. It's completely throwing their life for a loop. And I think speaking of modeling, finding role models that you can look to, too, like you're one, you're the primary breadwinner in your relationship. I make more money than my partner makes. I think finding those touch points because we construct our realities and our notion of what's possible, what's normal, what's okay, what's accepted based on the stories that we witness,

the more stories that we can surround ourselves with of people in that situation, the more normalized that story becomes. Yes. I wrote my book, the last book, When She Makes More, it came out in 2014. And so I wasn't even a mom yet. I was actually 10 months. Can you be 10 months pregnant? I was eight months pregnant. It felt like 10 months. Pregnancy is 10 months. And I feel like we don't talk about that enough. Honestly, the nine month thing is it's 40 weeks. Do the math. Right? Thank you. Let's set the record straight. So I birthed a book and a baby and it was in some ways the before times because I feel like fast forward to today. We've come even in just 10 years, fewer than 10 years, such a long way in being able to just talk about it.

I remember telling people I was writing a book about women breadwinners at a dinner party where I knew that at least a few of the women were making more than their husbands. And it was like you could hear a pin drop. It was very tense in the room. And then later someone would pull me aside and say, you know, this is my life. And I say, great, let's talk. I'm writing a book. But now it rolls off the tongue a lot easier. I hope for more people.

Absolutely. Do you think that there's historical context to women in particular having a different relationship, different fears around money than men do? women were not legally able to get a credit card until 1974. And for the vast, vast majority of human history until very recently, women couldn't own their own property or generate income in most cultures in the world. And I think we lose sight of how recently all of these huge changes have happened. And I'm curious what you think the lingering impacts of that history are today.

Well, Liz, look, fearlessness is a privilege. Being able to not be afraid of your present and your future, I think that is a reality few of us will ever really experience. I think particularly for anyone who's felt marginalized women, people of color, someone who's disabled, someone who's in the LGBTQ community. When someone says be fearless, question the source. Sometimes, and I think that certainly, certainly as a woman who may have great, grown up not being told she can be financially strong and is good at math and should pursue investing. And all the things that I think young boys and men get, whether it's directly or indirectly from society and their families, women don't get those narratives. And so are we so

surprised that they arrive at their financial lives feeling less capable? And on top of that, the financial industry is reflective more of traditional men's values. For me, I remember I had a hard time coming to terms with wanting to make more money. And it's because I didn't want to be perceived as somebody who was power hungry. What? Okay, let's unpack that. Okay, because money we always say is power, right? And it's like, yeah, that's not me.

And it took some talking to a money coach, frankly, who was like, your definition of power is very, very myopic. And it's because of how power is portrayed in the media and how we talk about it. It's this really masculine energy, this domination. And not to say that that's exclusive to men, but I don't think that that is, for me, it was not tapping it in my feminine. But she's like, remember, power is multifaceted. You can have power to uplift.

You can have power to promote. You can have power to invest and support. And I was like, yeah, that's more my power. That's the flavor of power that I like. And she said, great, well, now that you've accepted that, go back to this idea that you have, that having more money means having power, which is bad. And I said, yeah, I need to rewrite that. So even for me, okay, somebody who felt very comfortable talking about money as a kid and as a young adult and then dedicated a whole career to it,

I still had some complexities around what money meant to me and my ability to be fearless around money. when I looked at it and I looked back at it, it was because of so many of the messages that I got growing up. And not just from my community and culture, but on the television and in movies and the powerful man at the top of the tower, taking everyone's money. We've seen it all. We've seen all the characterizations. But it all impacts us, especially as women who, again, we're new to the money world. We have not been invited to the money world. We are in some ways playing some serious catch-up.

And we're doing a great job at it, but you got to give us some grace there because you're going to be a little bit behind. It's not to say that it's hard to learn. You can learn very quickly. This is the other myth that it's really hard, that it's somehow really complex and you have to be really smart to get it. No, it's actually quite simple. It's just that we have been shut out of this world for so long. We have been made to feel like we don't belong. Centuries of that kind of conditioning, what do you expect?

When it comes to wellness, you're going to get the best results by focusing on the big needle movers. A lot of us spend a lot of time trying to optimize that last 1%, which creates a ton of stress, and it actually doesn't help our health that much. At the top of the needle mover list, sleep. And one of the best ways to optimize your sleep is to optimize your mattress, which is why I love avocado green mattress so much. First of all, this mattress is so comfortable. I have the one with the pillow top, which is medium firm, and it's just a dream.

I miss it when I travel. It's better than even the fanciest hotel beds. Having a mattress that supports your joints and your body and feels good is going to help you get more sleep and better quality sleep. But then, on top of that, avocado mattresses are made with certified organic cotton, wool, and latex, and they are made safe and green guard gold certified. They're also Okotech certified, which is the gold standard. I look for it in any mattresses, sheets, or towels that I buy, which means the materials have been rigorously tested for harmful substances. You can actually look for the Okotech standard 100 label right on the product, and I love this part. It includes a traceable certificate number and the name of the testing lab so you know exactly what you're getting.

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Masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. That's 15% off at masterclass. com slash Liz Moody, masterclass.com slash Liz Moody. Yeah. And I think that awareness is so key because instead of berating yourself and being like, what's wrong with me, you're like, look at history. Look at how far we've come in such a short moment.

amount of time. Let's get into some of those simple steps, though. Can you share in your mind what three things that every woman should do, maybe short and long term, to be financially secure? If financial security is their goal, can you just share three super pragmatic tips? Yes. So the first is once you're making money, take any and all advantages to invest. And I would start with an investment portfolio that's offered from your company. That's usually the 401K, or the 403B. Why I like to start there is because they take money out of your paycheck every pay cycle automatically, which may sound annoying, but it's actually psychologically very, very helpful to not be in control of that yourself because left to our own volition, we will not invest as

frequently or as much. When it's automated, it gets done for us and lo and behold, a year later when you're ready to leave that job, you're leaving with like a $20,000 nest egg. Who would have known, but you let the robots take over and good for you. The other thing I like about these employer-sponsored retirement accounts is that your contributions are tax deductible. So with every penny that you put into this account, it lowers your taxable liability, your tax liability by that amount. So that's a great place to start. You can also invest, I think, over $20,000 every year. So that's a lot. That's like a great way to play some catch up to. As far as how much to invest, Hey, if you can do all of that, that's fantastic.

But start with maybe 10% of your paycheck. If you're starting in your 20s, if you're starting a little bit later in your life, like 30s, 40s, maybe it's like 15%. And the other thing that I love about the 401k is that sometimes, and it's quite frequent still, surprisingly, your employer will match your contribution up to a percentage. So you put in a dollar, your employer puts in a dollar up to say five or six percent of your income. There's nothing else quite like that. There's no match in an IRA. It's free money. So rule number one, invest and take advantage of investment vehicles, starting with your workplace investment vehicles.

Number two, I think it's really important to know what you absolutely need to have in your life to be happy. And that you can change this formula. I'm not asking you for a five-year plan. I'm just asking for a one year. What does Liz need? What does Farnush need for the next 12 months? That yes, might even require some spending. But here are my non-negotiables.

Because I find that it's much simpler to distill what it is that you are not willing to give up than anything else. It just really gets you a shortcut to creating that budget and building a really pleasant life around that. Because so much when we start to budget, it's about how can I save? What can I cut out? What can I spend less on? What are the two or three things that for you are vital? Like maybe it is travel, maybe it is concerts. And this goes back to my very first book, which is we talk about needs versus wants. What about the need wants? Like, I don't need to go to see Beyonce, but I really, really want to. And it's my 40th birthday. And it would mean so much to me to go there with my girlfriends and have this experience. My soul needs it. Your soul needs it. Yeah. And to plan for that and to budget for that. And that way, where you do that need to make cuts, you're more than willing. It's like a no-brainer because you know you're going to get something really great out of it. So anchoring your budget in these need wants, as I say, these things that, yeah, you could live without it, but would you be happy?

And then the third thing is that if you are still in a place where you're dating or even in a relationship, that you really open up about money with your partner. And the first question that you ask each other is not even about money so much. It's about what are your goals, what are our goals? And then you can talk about like, how were you raised around money? What are some of the very first memories of money that you have? Because I think it will give you a lot of important context for your partner as they go and make money decisions. A lot of times we are like, why did he do that or why did she spend money on that?

I think that we don't have the context half the time. So having that history is really, really important. I think from there, you also have more ease to talk about the other important things, like how to afford your goals. I mean, I just think that even if you're not in a partnership and you don't want to be, having someone else in your life that you can talk about money with, and it could be a planner, it could be a friend, it could be a coworker, it could be listening to a podcast where you feel really connected to the host and you can somehow maybe even send in questions, I think that it's so important to fill your life with more of what you want to grow in and grow at. So if you've got the partner, start there. It's the best person to start talking

about money with. And let's say you don't want to just be secure, but you want to get as rich as possible. Do you have any one or two, maybe pragmatic tips for that? As rich as possible. Well, investing certainly, there's a saying you don't need to be wealthy to invest, but you have to invest to be wealthy. And that's a long game. I'm sensing in your question that this is maybe somebody who's very eager. I think actually an important part of the money conversation. I had this conversation with my very first time I saw a financial advisor. I was like, okay, I have some money for the first time in my life. How do I leverage that this year into never having to work again? And he's like, it doesn't really work like that. And I think switching some of your thinking to the long-term stuff,

the boring stuff is actually the stuff that's going to make me as rich as I can possibly get. One of my favorite books is The Psychology of Money, Morgan Housel. And it's just a beautiful book that's full of storytelling and rich stories, but it's all about the truth to getting rich. And it is not investing in crypto. It's really just about the behavior. behavioral steps and the mentality that you need. It's boring, Liz. It's like you got to just be slow and steady. Slow and steady. I will say, though, that throughout your life, there are opportunities to see inflection points in your financial life, right, where you can make strides and you can jump a few steps ahead. That has more to do with your earning potential. So switching

Jobs helps, you're not going to make a lot more money at the same job, right, unless you somehow climb your way up to like the executive suite. But chances are you're going to grow your income very incrementally over the years working at the same company. Where you see big jumps is when you shift firms, go to different companies. In my 20s, when I was working in journalism and making $18 an hour before taxes and then after that it was like a $40,000 a year. your job. And I had student loans and I had rent and living in New York City is not cheap. So I would

just kick on a lot of side hustles. The side hustle thing is fraught and we need to be careful and we don't want to promote burnout. We want to also hold our economy accountable in some ways. I don't think that everyone should just go out there and get eight jobs. And then the government can be like, oh, well, see, we can just have inflation forever because people are figuring it out. But I think that for me, I didn't see side hustles as a long-term bet. I was like, I just need to get another income stream to get out of credit card debt. And then if I can look at this side hustle, which was at the time just like freelancing for a newspaper and some babysitting, I can be out of credit card debt by next year, which

imagine not having to pay $500 a month for the rest of my life to a credit card company. So there are these opportunities that sometimes require getting uncomfortable, that sometimes require getting outside of our comfort zone and making some tradeoffs that are difficult in the moment, but they're sprints. And we do them. And then we can get ahead like three years ahead, right? Because you just committed to this really hard thing for six months. Your whole new book is about fear.

And it's interesting because the money section is a little bit later in the book. And you self-acknowledge, wow, this is interesting. that the money section is coming in later, people must be questioning this. But in fact, all of these different fears are entangled with our fear of money. I would love for you to share maybe a few of the most common fears that you find that people have around money. A big one is the fear of losing their money, losing it all, because so many people may have grown up in scarcity, in households that went bankrupt, where especially if you grew up as a tween teen during the last great recession, which was 2008, 2009, you're probably a young

adult today, very, very apprehensive about real estate, about investing because you saw your parents essentially do all the right things, right? And then their 401ks became 201Ks. Their homes went underwater. That happened to my dad. He inherited some property from his parents when they died and they had to put a road on it basically to be able to sell it. And in the time that it took them to build the road, it literally lost all of its value. And he went from potentially having this not a huge windfall, but a small windfall to hovering on the verge of bankruptcy in 2008. Our financial lives are so fragile. I think we're all acutely aware of this. We've all had a brush with this or a wave with this. And I think that it is why so many of us arrive in our adult

financial lives, very, very feeling on edge and fearful of like, look, when we talk about money, we're talking about life, money decisions are very high stakes because one wrong money move could mean a collapse. Forget money too. It could mean ruining a relationship with somebody. It could mean the end of a business. It could mean so many things that we don't even want to think about. And so as a result, the fear mistakenly prevents us from making any moves. We just remain stuck. Another thing people are really right about when it comes to money is just facing the numbers because they feel as though the numbers reflect who they are. We think that our net worth is our self-worth. And so if we see the credit card balances, if we see that credit card statement

and it's way high. We're like, okay, we feel like a smaller version of ourselves. We feel as though we're not living our fullest potential. And so we don't want to feel that way. So we don't even look at it. We stick the bills in the drawer. I want to dive into the rest of our money fears in a second, but I have questions on both of those things.

First, the feeling that your worth is defined by your net worth. That is such a pervasively enforced societal notion. I know people in my life who have never, never worked a day in their life. They've inherited a ton of money and people still listen to what they say as if it's sage wisdom simply because they have a lot of money in their bank account. How do we get over the feeling that our net worth is entangled with our self-worth when society is constantly telling us otherwise? Well, you have to be careful with who you're surrounding yourself with and you have to catch yourself in those moments. I think that the truth is,

And I've worked with many people of all financial sizes and situations. And I will say sometimes the richest people are the saddest people. It never matters how much you make as it turns out there are things like sadness and depression and feeling lonely and feeling rejected that it's not exclusive to people who don't have money. That happens at all income levels, at all wealth levels. You just have to accept that it is a fallacy and you're just watching fiction when you see depicted on television online that show a quote unquote rich person because they've got all the

fancy things they must have it all they must be happy they must be fulfilled they've arrived no they still go back home and they have problems i just did an episode about this on my podcast we called it rich kid problems and it's like okay before you tune out because who cares about the rich kids and their problems i think it was called the silver spoon the myth of the silver spoon is this book and the author does a beautiful job of looking at, okay, there are all these people that grew up wealthy, like you pointed out, silver spoon in their mouth, never had to worry about money. And they have problems. To analyze that actually opens up a window into a lot of our problems. These problems are universal. And so I think what the takeaway is, is that money does

not cure our problems in those ways, our emotional problems. Sometimes our connection problems, our relationship problems, our sense of self-worth problems. And so you cannot have a sense of feeling rich with just money. You have to also feel whole as a person. And that takes work. There is work there. And I think it's even harder sometimes than trying to go make the money. I think that is such a good point.

And I also think that being aware of the insidious little societal messages around Worth, like asking yourself, do I want that handbag that has the label on it so other people think I have money to buy this handbag or because I actually really want this handbag in my life? I think people do that with cars. They do that with houses. They do that with clothing. And I think being aware of the times you're trying to display yourself as wealthy versus spending your money in a way that you genuinely enjoy it, every time you're just trying to display it, you're sort of reinforcing the idea that your worth is entangled with your. yourself work.

Do you remember the book The Millionaire Next Door? Yes. I didn't read it, but I remember it. It's this person who's like driving a Honda, getting a $12 haircut. They live in a modest home and they are some of the happiest people. And it's because they have money, that's for sure. But it's also because I think they're not buying into a construct of what it means to be rich and happy.

And I think that you're right. Whenever we see whether it's in your TikTok feed or wherever it's showing up, it's showing up everywhere, but someone who is portrayed as rich and happy, they're trying to sell you something. Who doesn't want happiness? And if you can pair happiness with a Balenciago bag, well, you know, you're going to sell more bags. A hundred percent. Okay. And then to dive into the other thing, I have that feeling of feeling forever unsafe around money. If you ask me how much money I would need to feel safe, which is actually a question in my conversation starter cards. I'm like, it is such a high number.

because I'm so afraid that at any point I could lose it all or I could lose my ability to make money. And I would love any very concrete, actionable advice that I could use to assuage myself of this fear. Well, let me put things in context for you. The average person has less than $400 in an emergency. So do you have more than that? You're way ahead of things. You're way ahead of things already. For me, whenever I'm feeling fear around something so abstract, like losing it all or

one day, what if, I have to, my job, and I'm a journalist and you are too, so we're good at this. We ask it questions like, okay, so let's get out of the clouds, the what ifs and that really scary 30,000 feet above air perspective and bring it home. Bring that fear home. So you need to create some what ifs for yourself that are very personal and very timely. So it's not just like, what if one day? What if tomorrow lives, your house burned down, God forbid. What if tomorrow So there was a tragedy and you couldn't work for six months, a health tragedy. Okay. Now, I like fear, but this isn't meant to make people just get scared for the sake of getting

scared. It's actually because when we go to that dark place and we get ourselves there and we see around us what's happening, for me at least, it has always been a trigger to go and do something. And whether that's something is just to get more educated, to create a plan, to look at my finances, things that I wasn't doing before when I was just in this world of what if, feeling scared, but you really need to create some worst case scenarios for yourself. So what if you did, speaking to the audience here, lose your job tomorrow, not someday, but like

actually tomorrow. So what would you do tomorrow? Would you just sit there? No, you wouldn't. You would go and find out what your potential severance is. And you can find that out now. You can go and look at your bank account and see what's sitting there. And if you had to stretch that out for the next six months, what would you cut out? And at least then, if and when something like that happens, you can hit the ground running and start actually deploying some important moves. I think it's really important that when you have these abstract fears, that you distill them and you go to the scariest place you can, which is like, this is happening.

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In the book, you talk about being afraid of money in the right way. Would you classify this as that? Yes, yes. But you typically are scared in the wrong ways in the sense that like when we feel fear, we've been so conditioned to hate it to think that it's the demon inside of us, that we push it away. We try to ignore it. But fear doesn't just go away, right?

It's like this constant. And so there is a healthier way to deal with fear. And usually it's to just face it and ask it questions. And sometimes you may realize I don't need to be scared. But in that exploration, in that deep dive and unpacking of that fear that you're feeling, I guarantee you, you will learn so much about yourself and what you want to protect and what you value. And isn't that what we all want a little bit more of?

We just all want to get closer to who we actually are and what matters to us. because from that vantage point, we can make the best decisions about money, about work, about relationships, about ourselves. Can you walk us through that in practice with maybe another common money fear? Can you kind of show us what being afraid of that thing in the right way would look like? Sure. Sophomore year, I worked three jobs. I took on a lot of course loads too, and it was just so overwhelming.

I go and quickly check my bank account. and it said negative $100 or whatever dollars. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Whose account is this? I almost didn't make it to my next shift. I was so perplexed. I felt so depleted. I had worked so hard.

I had made what I thought was a nice chunk of money, thousands of dollars, and now I have nothing. So I quickly looked at the statement and saw that I had overdrafted multiple times using my debit card in the last 48 hours. Now this was the 90s. So we didn't have mobile apps and things like that to give us real time notifications. And so, you know, the way that overdraft protection works is that when you're in the store and you don't have money, it overdrafts. And it doesn't embarrass you. It just goes through. And then you deal with the consequences later and you get charged like 35 or whatever dollars. So this had happened multiple times. It was hundreds

and hundreds of dollars worth of. I called the bank. I told them, look, I'm not trying to fleece you. I just didn't know. And is that allowed? And the guy on the other line, he was very nice. He was like, yeah, I see what happened here. Okay. So I'm going to get rid of these other overdrafties. I'll just charge you for one. But the other nine, we can turn a blind eye. I said, thank you. So now I'm back in the black. And that was a moment for me where I realized I was too afraid of just not having enough money and not also afraid or more afraid of managing the money well. You got to sometimes pair the fear. You can't just be afraid of one thing, maybe be afraid of a couple of other tangential things that will work together in a synchronized way. I was not

wrong for being worried about not having enough money that motivated me to go get the jobs, which was great, but I didn't also fear because I wasn't educated perhaps on on how to live within my means and budget. How do we deal with fear of things that we cannot control when it comes to money? Things like inflation and interest rates and job markets. Well, it's like any time you fear uncertainty in this case, the fear of money and the fear of uncertainty are close kins. They're just like the best buds.

And so much of our financial fears come from the fear of uncertainty. So I always say that when fear of uncertainty arrives, it's nudging you to identify what you can immediately control that is within your power. Because that is what you're trying to protect after all, is your sense of security. So you can't control the Federal Reserve or inflation or the recession that's going to happen again. It's inevitable. But what can you control in the interim during all? of that to feel empowered and like you've got to handle on things. There's a lot that you may not even recognize. So often when we think about laying down our fears of money, it requires money.

If only I had more money, I could be less afraid of money. No, that's actually not it. Sometimes the cure for having a healthier relationship with your financial fears or just not having them overwhelm you is sometimes just working on your mind, working on how you've been thinking, about money, the perceptions you've been having about money. One of the first steps in calming your financial fears is, again, asking it where it came from. Why do I fear this, actually? This discovery may say the fear is bogus, but getting to that discovery point is invaluable because you might discover, oh my gosh, I've been surrounded by some really terrible people. I don't want to be around these people anymore who are feeding me these lies, right, about what my

worth is around money and what my capabilities are in my financial life. Or maybe you realize it is true and you've got to do something about it. But it's always worth the exploration. And that didn't cost anything except for your commitment to getting to know yourself. If I say my fear is inflation or my fear is another recession, what is the thing that's in my control to do in that situation? Sure. So if your fear is inflation, the first thing you want to do is look at your cash flow and inflow outflow, right? What am I spending every month on the things that I need? How can I bring down those costs? How can I save? Our best defense against inflation in our personal economies is to reduce not so much our spending, but be more creative about what we're spending

on and how we're spending. So are we buying in bulk? Are we freezing? Are we carpooling? It's really these back-to-basic strategies. And then also, can I make more money somehow? Even if it's just $100 a month to be able to pay down that credit card where the interest rate keeps going up in this inflationary time. So those are the things. Can I get help? Can I call a credit counselor? Can I work with a financial planner? Can I call my bank and see if there's any way to lower my interest rate or get on a payment plan for my medical bill. Look, you have to be your biggest advocate in these moments because inflation will figure itself out and we have tools for that, but it takes years. So in the meantime, what are you going to do? You have to do something

that's within your reach and all of these things are within your reach. And again, not always requiring money, right? It's really just about getting resourceful. Yeah, I like that. Do you have any advice for the anxiety that comes with feeling behind on money? Like you should have invested this much by now or your friends can afford to buy a house and you can't, things like that? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Again, it goes back to that narrative.

Like, why are you holding onto this narrative? I was just having a conversation yesterday with a friend who's like, I feel behind because I'm not owning a home yet. And my parents did. And I'm like, yeah, but your parents did it in the 80s. And I'm not saying that interest rates weren't high in the 80s and it wasn't hard to buy a house in the 80s, but the spread between what home costs and what average income was, the affordability was much, much more accessible back then than it is now. You have to check yourself and the stories that you're telling yourself and be kinder to yourself. Just because someone else's financial life played out in a certain way doesn't mean that it has to for yours.

The other thing I'll say is that whenever you're feeling FOMO, this is really financial FOMO. I'm not where I should be, but everybody else seems to be going to Greece and they're on their second home. And sometimes we set ourselves up for failure because our definition of success is completely out of whack. Our definition of success is pegged to somebody else's success. That's not cool. That's not right. What is your definition of happiness and success? You've got to figure that out and then decide it'll just be easier than to decide whether

homeownership is actually right for you or not. And if that you decide it still is, then fine, but you're not doing it because you're trying to measure up to other people's expectations and other people's lifestyles. It's hard. I'm not saying this is, oh, just flip the switch and you'll just start feeling this way. It's great. It's super. It's easy.

But this is the work. It's such an interesting dynamic. I always tell people, especially women, to talk. more about money and make it less taboo so we can all earn more. But one of the downsides of doing that is if you have insights into your friend's financial situations, sometimes it can make you feel worse about your own and it can lead to guilt on the other person's side. It can lead to resentment. It can lead to jealousy. I'm curious how you recommend people navigate that. Like, do you recommend people share salaries? I think that when you feel like you're in a safe relationship, place, friendship,

Yes, I think that salary transparency, I'm an advocate for that, but I don't think always. I talk about that in the book, like the fear of exposure is real. And I've even heard from friends, financial expert friends who were sharing their incomes on social media and realizing we live in a world that's not always so accepting and encouraging of that. But I think in general, I think that just sharing the income is not helpful. I think you also want to know how did you get here, the context. Do you have to ask how come, how, why, what did you do? What's your advice for me? Because then it's helpful.

If you're just meeting someone, they're like, they have the same job title as you, but they're making twice as you, then that's deflating. I get it. But maybe the next question is, what was your previous salary? And how did you make the jump? What was a conversation like when you went into the room to ask for that money? What's your advice for me, right? There's so much we can learn from each other, but I think it's important that we just

really commit to going deeper. Well, and to the point of the other stuff we were talking about earlier, if you're just kind of like sharing the salary and leaving it there, it often will veer more into that we're judging each other's worth than we're actually trying to empower each other and utilize this information for net benefit. Exactly. Yeah, it's very easy. It feels like just a quick way to slap on someone's self-worth.

The meter goes up. Oh, this person makes six figures. clearly they're a happier, better, more capable person. 100%. Do you have any advice specifically for when you're in a different financial situation than your friends, but you still want to do stuff with them? Because if you pay, that can create a really weird dynamic. But if you don't pay, then you can't maybe do the things that you want to do and that you've

earned the money to do. So I would love your advice for the people on both sides, the person with more money in those friendship dynamics and also the person with less because I think they both have their own sets of challenges. If you are sensing tension or friction around sharing in some costs and doing things together that cost money because you're on different financial planes, then I think you need to talk about it. Is the person who's making more or has more financial capacity, let's just say, be conscious. Realize you're in a place of more privilege and that it may be difficult for your friend to talk

to you about the fact that this is making them uncomfortable and that they can't come with you on certain trips or go to certain places with you. Really being emotionally intelligent around your friends that are making less or have less and that you're not that friend who is like, let's go to Beyonce and don't assume anything, right? Never assume that your friends are going to be able to pull it off. And I'm sure people will with their credit cards. I'm a little nervous, you know, hearing on the one hand, love that Taylor Swift, billion

dollars, great. But you're like, where's this money coming from? Is it just all rich people going? No, I'm sure not. know, and we know that credit card bills are at a record high right now. I think a few of them might have some Taylor Swift tickets on there. I'm just going to guess. So as the more financially, how shall I say, flexible person in the friendship that you take on maybe the role of being hyper aware of what's going on and being the one to maybe start that conversation to encourage

vulnerability in that friendship to say, hey, I realize that we don't have to. the same financial goals, maybe we aren't spending money on the same things and we can't, but the most important thing for me is that we hang out, we have fun. And then for the other person who may not have as much to spend on activities and hanging out, I think that you can also be proactive. You can say like, hey, I got us a group rate for this dinner. You know, I remember planning a bachelorette party. This was in our 20s for my friend, and we were at all different income levels and debt levels, but we all had committed to coming to New York to have dinner with our friend who was becoming a bride. And so I was arranging it. I didn't ask everyone for their

net worth salary totals. I wasn't like, okay, what do you make? What do you make? Okay, I guess we can go to Tao. No, it was like, I'm going to try to just do this like I would on a budget. Who cares what I can afford or what someone else is making work and afford? We have to level the playing field. I called around some restaurants. I asked for a prefix menu. They had a call. I think that places are willing to accommodate if they know you're coming in a large group. They're willing to lower their prices a little bit, throw in an extra bottle of wine. And then also important, I managed expectations going in. I was like, this is going to cost $100 per person or $65 per person.

So if you're not okay with that, you can join us for the next thing, which is going to be drinks at this bar. Having different options for different people to participate in. Right. I was going to ask, what would you say to the person who's like, well, I worked hard for my money. I want to go to Beyonce. I want to have a fancy bachelorette, et cetera. And would your advice be to weigh what means more or to have the different tiers so people can participate in different parts or something else? It's such a personal decision. I definitely don't agree with pressuring your friends to come with you to something that they can't afford. That's not being a good friend. Yeah. Can you share some practical tips for assessing whether a big financial risk, is worth taking, whether it's going back to school or buying a home or leaving a job that we hate for a dream job that might pay less? Well, first thing you want to figure out is, can I afford it?

Can I actually, with real money, afford it? If you're using this going back to school example, it's student loans, it's leveraging, it's financing. And not to say that that's okay, well, that's not happening. We can't do it. It's just that you have to, again, think about can I manage this payment? Is this going to be feasible for me? And so that's the first step. What is the cost? How am I going to afford it? Am I coming up with the most optimal way to afford this? If it's going back to school again, could you get scholarships? Could you get grants? Could you go part-time? What is possible? I would prefer that everybody cash flow everything, that it's just coming and they're paying it with cash. Nothing against debt. I have a mortgage. I have a car loan,

but I had student loans. They all helped me advance. And I guess the answer to you're question is, will this actually be an investment that will pay with dividends? And I'm ready for that long haul because it may not pay right away. And do you mean literally pay? Or like, I have friends who just bought a really expensive home, but they are home bodies and they spend a lot of time at home. Can it pay off in emotional ways? Or this is going to be a place I really like to be? Or does that not count? Well, yes, it's paying off emotionally. But I would also say for your friends, it's paying off financially too because they are in their home. Maybe they're not going to Greece this summer or or whatever, right? So you are getting a lot out of. They're entertaining at home. They're not going

out. So long term it is. And I do think there's something to be said about being happy in your purchasing choices and money isn't everything. But I would be concerned if you said my friends bought this house and they're struggling to make the payments. And they had to sell furniture, or they had to get a third job or whatever. Then I'd be like, okay, maybe they took on more than they could really carry. It's about what's practically affordable. It's like a Venn diagram. I can afford it. I can manage those payments. It has a return on investment, which could hopefully mean financial, but also emotional. Third, I want to do it for me. This isn't something that I feel pressured into doing. So important because society can dictate so much of our path.

And we end up one day going, how did I get here? Why am I here? Why did I do all the things I thought I was supposed to do and I'm still unhappy? Yeah, 100%. There's a whole talking head song about that. It's so interesting. I have this pros and cons of having kids series. One of the experts that I interviewed on that, I was like, well, how do you make this

decision? And she did the same thing where she took this thing that I think a lot of us view very emotionally. Like it's a dream or it's not a dream. And she was like, what are the practical elements of your life and how are you considering? Can I afford the kid? What does my day to day life look like with the kid? What do my finances look like? Do I have people around who can help me? You're sort of doing the same thing with money where I think we're told, we're given so much messaging around anything you dream, you can make real. And I think there's beauty in that. But I also think there's beauty in saying, well, let's bring it back to the practical questions. And then we can be.

create practical solutions for those practical questions and use that practicality to inform our decision making. Yes, I love practicality. It's going to go on my tombstone. She was a very practical woman. And I think practical doesn't get enough credit in our society. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. Like, oh, you're so boring. Oh, you're so straight and narrow. But it's like, I am living the dream, y'all. I'm living the dream thanks to my practicality. I love that. Can you You just leave us with one homework assignment, something that we can all do and we stop listening to this podcast today to begin to reframe or feel better about some of our anxieties or fears around money.

It's this. When you feel financial fear of any shape, any size, ask yourself, what is my opportunity right now? What is the thing that I want to protect? You're feeling this fear for a reason. It didn't just show up for a good hang. It came with a message and it is very personal. You want to be the adult in the room and turn to that fear and say, what do you want me to protect?

And how can we turn this moment into an opportunity to protect and secure? You can go back fear to living your life and I can go back to living mine. And I appreciate you showing up, but let's work together and figure out a way to find a solution. Be practical. I love that. tell us a little bit about your brilliant new book and your podcast? Thank you. I'd love to. I feel like we've been talking about it more or less this whole hour, but the new book, it's my fourth book, and it's taken nine years since my last book to figure

out what I really wanted to write about. And it's called a healthy state of panic. Follow your fears to build wealth, crush your career and win it life. It is the culmination of my 40 plus years living life afraid and somehow making shit work. I get stuff done. I'm happy most days. And I think that fear deserves a rebrand. And the reason that the money lady is talking about fear is because when we talk about money, we're talking about really, like I said, high stakes, pivotal moments, decisions in our lives. How could we not be afraid?

It is the emotional underpinning of so many of our financial conundrums. And so I've been working professionally with fear for a lot of my life. And personally, this is my next contribution to the future. personal finance space. I decided to write a book that was about money, but also about emotional well-being and mental health and tackling fear and giving it the street cred that I think it deserves to help us find answers that we so desperately want when it comes to how to make more, how to get out of debt, how to build a career that we love, how to find the right partner, how to be alone and happy, how to face rejection and it's okay, how to face something uncertain and know that you can get

through it successfully. And then the podcast, truly the podcast, I think I haven't written a book in nine years because I've been doing the podcast for nine years. It's a full-time job. It's a full-time job, as we know. The podcast informed a lot of the book, which has spoken to a lot of people. And when you're talking about money, it's like the third guest on the show is fear, I always say. So the book and the podcast are very much two peas in a pod. And the podcast is called So Money. And I hope you'll. check it out. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for Nish. This was very helpful for my anxiety, and I'm sure it will be for our Listerds as well. Thank you so much, Liz. That was so good.

You asked the best questions. Ooh, that was such good stuff. I feel calmer. Do you feel calmer? If something in here resonated with you or you have a friend you think it could help, please send them a link. Again, literally just opening up the conversation about these things is so, so key to making progress on both a societal and individual level. If someone shared a link with you and you are new to the podcast, welcome. I am so glad that you're here. Make sure that you're following the podcast on whatever platform you like to listen on. All you have to do is go to the main podcast page. That is the one that lists all of the Liz Moody podcast episodes and you will see the word follow under the logo on Spotify. And then there's a little follow with a plus sign button on

the top right of that same page on Apple Podcasts. This way you will not miss out on any new episodes. They will appear right in your feed every single Wednesday. And you do not want to miss out because we have some very exciting ones coming up. Next week will be a very special episode. It will be both our 200th episode and my book release episode. So tune on in for that. It's going to be a party. And remember to go to lizmoody.com slash tour so we can all hang out together on tour. It will truly be one night to change your life or go to 100 ways to change your life.com to snag your copy of the book so you were entered for that $1,000 flight credit giveaway. You only have one more week to enter before the book is officially published

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