The Liz Moody Podcast - Unlocking the Happiness Formula: How the Most Joyful People Manage Their Time With Cassie Holmes, PhD

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Tips for fighting the feeling of time poverty, figuring out exactly where you’re wasting time, & setting intentional priorities in life.  the top things we commonly do wrong with the way we’re spending our time how to know what activities truly make you happiest what the research says about how the happiest people spend their time  the number one way to enjoy work more how to know what you’re wasting your time on (and exactly how to change it) the ideal amount of free time to have for maximum happiness (it’s not what you think!) easy tricks to feel more time abundant tips for overcoming the effort hurdle of doing things that will ultimately bring you joy the simple math equation that will completely change your life and the way you use your time and so much more!  For more from Cassie, find her at cassiemholmes.com and check out her new book Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most. To join The Liz Moody Podcast Club Facebook group, go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/healthiertogetherpodcast. Ready to uplevel every part of your life? Pre-order my new book 100 Ways to Change Your Life: The Science of Leveling Up Health, Happiness, Relationships & Success now!  This episode is sponsored by: Seed: go to seed.com/lizmoody and use code LIZMOODY for 25% off your first month. Thrive Market: go to thrivemarket.com/LIZMOODY for $80 in free groceries. LMNT: go to DrinkLMNT.com/Liz a to get a free LMNT sample pack with any order.  AG1: visit http://drinkag1.com/lizmoody and get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 10 free travel packs today.  Cover art by Zack. Music by Alex Ruimy. Formerly the Healthier Together Podcast. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to what was formerly known as the Healthier Together podcast and will from here on out be known as the Liz Moody podcast. Wow, that feels so good to finally say. If you've missed my announcements over the past few months, we are officially changing the name of the podcast from Healthier Together to the Liz Moody podcast. When I started this podcast, I wanted to get into every single element of what helps us live our best lives. And we have done that with episodes about uncovering the hidden elements of how.

happiness, getting a personal trainer's tips for exercising more efficiently, learning the most effective strategies for reducing anxiety, diving into the pros and cons of having kids, getting tips for balancing our hormones, and so much more. But while I've always viewed health and wellness as including healthier finances, healthier relationships, all of that, the words have a lot of other societal connotations and limits. And I'm just ready to break free from the limits. This is a podcast where we learn from the world's leading experts, but in a way that doesn't bore us to tears. This is a podcast where we create a safe space to talk about childhood trauma and the patriarchy and low libido and high libido and loving our bodies and hating our bodies.

This is a podcast free of judgment or embarrassment or shame. This is a podcast where we don't just learn. We turn knowledge into real steps we can take today to transform our lives. This is a podcast. where we laugh and we cry and we ask the hard questions of others and ourselves. And I am so, so proud to say that this is now the Liz Moody podcast. Today, I am so excited to welcome Cassie Holmes to the show. Cassie is a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management, an award-winning researcher on time and happiness, and the best-selling author of Happier Hour, How to Beat Distraction, expand your time, and focus on what matters most. Her work has been featured on NPEO, The R. The Economist, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, Scientific American, and many, many more.

She has a PhD from Stanford's Graduate School of Business and was previously an award-winning teacher at the Wharton School at University of Pennsylvania. I loved this episode. I've been so excited to release it since we recorded it, but I figured it was especially perfect for the first week after Labor Day, since a lot of people consider it the official end of summer. And let me be clear, I do not agree with that. summer ends on September 22nd and not a day sooner. But there can be this rekindled urge to be more productive this time of year. And I think in that conversation, it can get lost that the overall point of us being productive is trying to ultimately feel fulfilled and content and happy in the

limited time that we have on this planet. We're trying to use our moments the best ways in pursuit of our best lives. And there's a lot of research that points to us really getting that wrong, which we get into in this episode. We talk about the top things we commonly do wrong with the way we're spending our time, how to know what activities truly make you happiest, what the research says about how the happiest people spend their time, the number one way to enjoy work more, how to know what you're wasting your time on, and exactly how to change it, the ideal amount of free time to have for maximum happiness, it is not what you think. Easy tricks to feel more time abundant. Tips for overcoming the effort hurdle of doing things that will ultimately bring you joy.

This is for when you're like sitting on the couch scrolling and you know that going for a run or calling your friend would make you happier, but you can't get yourself off the couch. This is how you get yourself off the couch. And the simple math equation that will completely change your life and the way that you use your time and so much more. I would definitely love to hear your thoughts and your biggest takeaways as you're listening to the episode. So screenshot and tag me. I'm at Liz Moody on Instagram. Also, can I ask you a quick favor? I am so, so nervous about this name change.

I know in my gut it is absolutely the right thing to do. But this podcast is my job. It's my livelihood. And it's my absolute favorite thing that I do. And I'm terrified people are going to see the new name and be like, what is that? And unsubscribe. If you could take one moment out of your day and send the podcast to someone and tell them why you think they'd love it, or take one minute and write a quick rating or review just to support

the new name, just to make sure that it's popping up in people's feeds to keep the amazing, huge community that lets me get top-tier guests every single week. I would so appreciate it. You can share a single episode or just the podcast as a whole. It would mean the absolute world, and it would help me feel a lot safer throughout this big leap. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I love you all. much. Okay, I am very excited about this episode. You are going to love it. Let's chat with Cassie Holmes. Cassie, thank you so much for joining me today. Hi, Liz. Thanks so much for having me. This will be hopefully a very happy hour for us talking and for everybody listening. I would love to just start off with. What are some things that you think people commonly do wrong with the way that

they're spending their time? Well, where do it? start. The problem is that time management is so much about efficiency. It's like how much can I get done as quickly as possible that leads us to be moving through our tasks, through our experiences, through our activities as quickly as possible, and like always thinking about what's next. And that is bad from a happiness perspective. And actually, I would even say it's bad from a productivity perspective, because what we should be thinking about is not efficiency, but really what's worthwhile. When we are doing a task, it's about making the most of that time. Even from a productivity standpoint, you're not going to create your best work if you're moving through it as quickly as

possible just to get it done. We create our best work when we create the time and space that isn't about rushing, it allows us to get into a state of flow, right? That's when we're at our best and most creative. I'm a business school professor. But taking the happiness professor lens, which is my favorite part of it, is it also detracts from enjoyment, right? That when we're moving through our tasks and always sort of in this constant state of rush, it makes us less happy overall because we're stressed and we can talk about the role of time poverty and how pervasive and detrimental it is, but also during the activities that we're doing during the time that we're spending, if we're always thinking about what's next, then we're missing what's right there

in front of us. We're missing the experience that we're actually living in the moment, shifting from doing mode constantly and efficiency as the outcome and really being about how do we make the time that we have worthwhile. I had a therapy session recently where I said to my therapist, I feel like I'm just going to check off a bunch of tasks on my to-do list and then I'm going to die and that's like going to be my life. Right. It's a scary thought.

And I think from what you're saying and also from your book, it's almost like there's two avenues. There's one figuring out what tasks are worthwhile in the first place and how we should be spending our time. And then the second avenue is making sure that in the moments we're spending our time, we're doing it with a certain mindset and an uncertain intentionality to enjoy, appreciate being those moments. Would you say that's true? Absolutely. That's a very high level answer to how do we invest our time for greatest sense of fulfillment and happiness and satisfaction. It is about maximizing the amount of time you spend on those activities that are worthwhile. So figuring out what those are. And then also when you're spending that time

engaging in it, not being distracted, sort of savoring and using these tools so that during that time you're getting the most out of it. And then, you know, there's all those pieces around that. Like, how do you identify those activities that are worthwhile? And how do you make it so that you are fully engaged during the time that you're spending? Are there universal activities that do tend to make us the most happy and universal activities that make us the most unhappy? Researchers will answer this question by looking over the course of people's days, how they spend their time, what activities they're doing as well as how they feel during that time. So you can pull out, on average, what are those activities that tend to be associated with the

most positive emotion? What are those activities that tend to be associated with the most negative emotion? Based off of that data, you see that on average, our happiest activities are those that socially connect us with others. You see physical intimacy, as well as socializing with family and friends as on average or happiest activities. You see on average or least heavy activities are commuting, work, and housework, which me even saying that is such a bummer because you think about, you know, the work week and those three activities together comprise the bulk of our waking hours. So it's such a bummer to realize that the data is bringing to those as our least happy times. But this is based off of the average.

So it's the average person as well as the average instantiation of any one of those activities. But of course, not everyone is average. So for instance, there are absolutely some folks in the data for whom their work hours are really happy. And then just because on average socializing is positive, there are certainly in times when we socialize that are more fun than others. And there are certainly work activities that are more fun than others. What I suggest people do is actually to track their own time is basically over the course of a week, writing down, what are you doing in each half hour increment as well as rating? How are you feeling coming out of that on a 10 point scale so that you have your own personalized data set at the end of the

week? Admittedly, it's super tedious to do the time tracking, but it's totally worth it. Because at the end of the week, you can look across your activities and be like, for you yourself, what are those activities that make you happiest and most satisfied? And what are those activities that make you unhappy? And in the activity, you're not just saying work or socializing. You're more precise. It's like what work task or what work activity? If you're socializing, whom are you with and what are you doing? So that allows you to pull out when I did this. I was like, oh, actually one on one time is my happiest. activities, whether it's with a colleague, so it could actually be during work hours, or even with

a family member or friends. I love the one-on-one dinners versus the cocktail party or even the group dinners. That's for me, there's other individuals for whom groups are like a great source of happiness. So it's super helpful to do this time tracking exercise to identify for yourself. This is one of the exercises to figure out what are some worthwhile ways. for you to spend. So for you, one-on-one time is a higher number. Are you trying to put more one-on-one time into your day? And are you trying to minimize the low numbers that you're seeing on there? Yes. This data allows you to see, okay, what are those activities? And I actually think it's more helpful to think about if you're looking across your eight, nine's, and tens activities,

what are some commonalities across them so that you can pick out the sources of the happy? Like, for me, that went on one time. So you can see what are those ways of spending time that tend to make you satisfied. You can also see just how much time you're spending across your various activities. And this is quite illuminating for folks because you might see, for instance, like, holy cow, I had no idea that I was spending this much time on X. And it doesn't even make me happy. and you can know that from your own ratings. So based off of that, it's like, oh, this is actually wasted time. And for those of us who feel time poor, we don't have time to do the things we want.

Well, actually, if you just reallocate that wasted time, like unnecessary, not fun, and you're spending a lot of time on it, reallocate those hours towards activities that based off of this, you do realize, oh, actually these are activities that bring me satisfaction and joy. A example of those sort of like wasted hours. For me, it's email. I could not believe just how much time I spent responding to email over the course of the week. It makes me very unhappy and some are necessary, but a whole bunch aren't. So that was a wake-up call for me.

So I teach MBAs, executive MBAs. So these are adults ranging in age from their mid-20s to my executive MBAs or like in their 50s. But there's the recognition of, holy cow, I had no idea that I was spending so much time on social media. My students think about their time on social media as their fun time, their me time to relax. But then when they actually look at their own ratings, it's like a four out of 10, that's quite illuminating because it's like I had no idea that I was spending this much time on it. Like in a week, one of my students was like 10 hours that she spent on social media. And this is someone who's going to school, working and has a social life.

And she's like, I feel like I don't have time. But here I am spending so much time on an activity that's absolutely not necessary and doesn't make me feel so great. So that is a great opportunity to reallocate those hours towards. an activity that she identified of meeting up with a friend for dinner or her sister for dinner, which she thinks she doesn't have time for. But actually, in making the time, that's like the nine and ten on the scale. It's a tricky equation, though, because when I think about the time that I'm on social media,

it's like when I'm in the bathroom, when I just woke up and I don't want to get out of bed while I'm waiting for the pot to boil. And I couldn't take all of those separate chunks of 10 minutes and turn them into a meaningful dinner with my sister. And I feel like that's one of the reasons I personally at least feel like I quote unquote waste a lot of time is because it's these weird chunks of time that I can't actually do something meaningful in. So I just default to scrolling. Yeah. And that's a good point. These little chunks of time throughout your day that it's hard to really consolidate into two hours of going out to meet up with your sister, friend for dinner.

But even those chunks can be reallocated towards ways that make you feel better, like reading or listening to a podcast where you learn something and it's illuminating. Reading for pleasure is one of these activities that often comes up. I have people, say, complete this sentence. I don't have time to. And so often people are like, I don't have time to read for pleasure, indicating that they wish they did. But if instead of scrolling social media in those 20 minutes here or even five minutes here in there, if you had a book that you're carrying around with you or listening to audiobooks, those 20 minutes do add up pretty quickly.

I mentioned commuting as one of these activities that people don't enjoy doing. And the reason is because you're sort of waiting through it. And when people commute on the subway, the default is scrolling social media or if you're in your car, scrolling the radio stations. But that's just sort of filling the time as opposed to if on the subway you opened a book or in your car you turned on an audio book, all of a sudden that time that you're just sort of filling and moving through and is wasted itself becomes more enriching and more satisfying and fun. even though they're little bits and it might be hard to reallocate towards a dinner, even those little bits you can make more fulfilling, even with insights from the time tracking itself. Were there other big time sucks that you have noticed,

either in your students or in the data? Among my working students, there are the time sucks of unnecessary meetings. Within our work identifying what are those activities. activities that are really driving you towards the goals. And I actually talk about it really aligning with your own purpose. Like, what is it? Why do you do the work that you do? What impact are you looking to have? What outcomes are you looking to really deliver on? And what you realize in this time tracking is that so much of the workday are not on activities that are aligned with your purpose or getting anywhere. If they're just sort of filling time, sometimes

that is these meaningless meetings. For me, it is, as I mentioned, email, even becoming more thoughtful about the workday of identifying what are those activities that are actually aligned with your purpose, that are moving you towards your goals. And those are the things that end up in the ratings feeling really positive because they're satisfying, fulfilling, because you realize you're making true progress as opposed to so much of the workday that is just sort of responding to what seems urgent as opposed to what's important. So that's a very clear example where time gets wasted, often through defaults, often through not being particularly intentional about how you spend your time through not protecting time for the work activities that really matter to you.

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off at branchbasics.com. That's code Liz Moody for 15% off the premium starter kit at branchbasics.com. And when they ask you where you heard about us, please make sure to mention the show. That is branchbasics.com and use code Liz Moody. What if somebody has a lot of ones and twos and threes, but they're things that they're required to do. And they can't necessarily, like, you use commuting and we're tying in. We can add an enjoyable activity and enriching activity like a podcast or a book. But let's say they work a job and most of their work day is ones and twos, but they need to work that job for money. Is that just something where we want to make the free time we have even more enjoyable to make up for it?

Or what are we doing to mitigate that situation? Yeah. So the bundling strategy is an important one. I mentioned it in the context of commuting. But you can also think about how you can bundle work hours with activities that are more fun. This is coming out of really neat work by Katie Milkman and are called. colleagues, and they talk about it in the context of motivating. Basically, you take an activity that you don't want to do, and you bundle it with an activity that you do want to do. They talk about

it for motivation because it makes you more likely to want to do that activity. I talk about it in terms of happiness, because when you're spending that time on this thing you don't want to do, it actually feels more fun because you've bundled it with something you do enjoy. As I mentioned, from the time tracking work, social connection is such a source of happiness and positivity. And in our work hours, bundling social connection with work is actually really effective at making people more satisfied on the job. It's as simple sounding, but it takes investment, is making friendships at work. so that as you're going into the job, even if the task itself and the job itself is, you know, just to get through to pay your bills.

But if you have a friend at work or you have friends at work, then all of a sudden those hours become more fun because you look forward to seeing them. You have that social connection. Having friendships at work, it helps get through sort of the crummy times of work because you have someone to talk to you about, you know, the challenges. it also makes the good parts of work even more fun, right? When there are wins, you have someone that you're sort of celebrating with. So there's a lot of data to support this. There's actually an interesting question in the Gallup data, and I asked, do you have a best friend at work?

And it sounds like such a silly question, do you have a best friend? But they find that the majority of people do not have a best friend at work. those who do are significantly more engaged in their work. They enjoy the work more, and they're better performers because they're more engaged. So bundling work hours with social connection is a great source of making work hours better. Also, I talked about purpose. Identifying the why of the work that you're doing is really helpful. And the why not being just to make money, the why being like doing this job has an impact on, you know, it might even be not quite obvious at first, but if you do the five Y's exercise, which I encourage folks to do, you have the job description, but why is that important? And then you have your answer to that. And it's like, well, why is that important? And this really helps you to illuminate the positive impact.

of the work that you're doing and recognizing that makes some of these fun tasks less onerous because you realize that there is a reason for it. And there's a lot of research to suggest that when people know the meaning of their work, it makes them better performers. But again, from my happiness perspective, it also makes them enjoy the tasks more. Which is a great management tip, too, if you're managing a team. Totally. And it's a totally under leveraged one. Like, all it takes is for the manager or company leaders to even articulate the why. Like, the work we do is important because of X. And it shouldn't be up to each individual to figure out the own X. It's absolutely an opportunity for managers and leaders to motivate their employees and their teams in the work that they do. One thing that I thought was really interesting in your book is that the goal shouldn't be to have unlimited discretionary time.

Like I have this fantasy where, you know, if I somehow got incredibly wealthy, I would just hang out and read books and like not do anything. And your book pointed out that the research shows that doesn't actually make us happy or our happiest selves. Can you speak to a little bit about what the ideal amount of discretionary time that people, need to be the most happy is and why that's the case? I'm so glad you ask because that was actually the motivator for me and doing this work. I use it to open the book because as someone who feels time poor, which is the acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do. It is that stress, that sense of overwhelmed of just not having enough hours in the day to get everything done, let alone doing any of it well, let alone enjoying any of it along the way.

And at points in my career, I have been like, okay, I just can't do it. It's too much. And when I had a new baby and this, you know, very pressureful job, but even our data, we actually looked at the prevalence of time poverty. And you see that folks feel this way, even if they're not working for pay, and among folks who don't have kids, that it is just this sense of not having enough hours in the day to get it all done. And in my state of that, I had this fantasy.

I'm like, okay, the answer is to quit and move to like a sunny island because we just imagine living on vacation, then I would be happy. But we looked into that and we looked at what is the relationship between the amount of discretionary time people have in their happiness? and we analyzed data from the American Time Use Survey, so tens of thousands of working as well as non-working Americans, and we could calculate how much time they spent on discretionary activities in a regular day and related it to their happiness.

And what we found was a really interesting pattern. And it was an upside-down U-shape, so like an arc or a rainbow, which is important because what that shows is that actually happiness goes down on both ends of the spectrum. So yes, when people have too little discretionary time, the time poor amongst us, we see that people are less happy. And that data set, it was folks with less than approximately two hours of discretionary time in the day were less happy. And that's because of these feelings of stress. But what was super interesting was the other end of the spectrum where we saw in this data set, those with more than approximately five hours of discretionary time in the day were also less happy. And that is interesting because we're imagining life on the beach.

If only I had like endless hours to spend exactly how I wanted day in and day out, then surely I'd be happy. But looking into the reason for it, our data shows that we are driven to be somewhat productive. We are averse to being idle. So when we are spending all the hours of our days, day in and day out, And this is not vacation. This is like over the regular course of your life, day to day, that people feel a lacking sense of purpose.

And with that, they feel less satisfied. So absolutely, there are ways of spending even discretionary hours that allow us to feel productive and give a sense of purpose, like volunteer work or engaging in a hobby that is enriching and develops us and allows us to grow. Even our data says that actually when people are spending their time, even their discretionary time in these purposeful ways, you don't see this dip in happiness. But I, in reflecting for myself, and you actually see that for so many, work is actually a great source of purpose. So the answer isn't necessarily to quit because having all the hours two days to, you know, read novels. You're reading for pleasure after some time. And I,

even though I sort of fantasize about living on vacation, day three of my beach vacation, then I'm like, okay, now what are we going to do? It's honestly a great lesson, too, I would imagine for retirement, for people who are going to have a retirement that feels happier to them would be to fill their time with other things that will give them a sense of purpose, rather than falling into the other side of the rainbow where you don't feel as happy because you have too much discretionary time. Absolutely. And you see that in the data. Retirees who do volunteer work are significantly more satisfied than those who don't. And you see that those who structure and spend some of their time doing these things that make them feel productive, that give them a sense of purpose, is really important for life satisfaction. And it's just really comforting to be like, no, no, I don't need to just be independently wealthy

and have all of the free time in the world. Like, that actually isn't the goal that will make me happier. Two hours a day, right? Is about what you said is the peak of that curve? And actually, I think it's really comforting in lots of different ways. The set of results, what we see is between two and five hours of discretionary time. It's flat. And so that means that there's actually no relationship.

between the amount of time you have and happiness. What this is pointing to is like the answer for happiness and time is that except at the extremes, it's not about how much time you have available. It's really how you spend the time that you have available that is critical for our happiness. I describe it as like it's not about being time rich. It's about making the time you have rich. And that is going back to what we were saying before. How do you make the time you have rich?

It's both about spending time on activities that are satisfying and feel worthwhile, but it's also when you're spending that time, being fully engaged so that you're getting the most happiness and satisfaction from the time that you're spending already. And two hours, at the face of it, for those who are super time poor, it's like, oh my God, there's no way. Two hours sounds like an indulgence or like a luxury that's unattainable. But it's actually not really because even when I was thinking back and like an honest calculation, when I had my new baby, this pressureful job, I was like, well, I had 20 minutes in the morning of cuddling with my little one, 25 minutes on my walk home talking to my best friend, 30 minutes sitting down, having dinner with my husband.

Ideally, it would be longer, but 30 minutes is 30 minutes and having a glass of wine, being in that conversation, and then singing my little one to sleep. Even in my busiest of phases, I was already at like an hour and a half that I wouldn't have wanted to spend in any other way. So two hours isn't totally out of the question. and it's really about being intentional and deliberate with the hours that you do have available to allocate them towards these activities that matter and making that time matter. And to that point, forgive me if I misunderstood this, but I felt like one of the things that you said in the book is that time poverty and time wealth was in part due to our perception of how much time abundance or how much time poverty we had.

Is that true? Yes, because what time poverty is, the feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. Now, there's a few inputs into that, that feeling is like this sense of how much we have to do is totally subjective and we need to claim more responsibility and ownership, like what our to do lists are. The problem is technology, and I'm not anti-technology because technology is. is so useful in so many ways. We just need to be aware, though, of the effects so we can use it for the good stuff and not be subjected to the bad stuff. Their little smartphones are so darn smart. But the problem with them is that because they allow us to do everything and anything at every moment, we feel like we should be doing everything and anything at every moment. So, our concept of what the to-do list should be or could be is sort of messed up, right? Even social media. Like at any moment, you can see the perfect moments that so many people are having.

And you're like, oh, I could be doing that or I should be doing that or like the tasks. Like I can do grocery shopping from my phone at every moment. So at any open moment, I'm like, oh, I should be checking something. off my list. Or we have these like counterfactuals like it could be on vacation somewhere like these people that are posting. So being aware of what are those things that we could and should be doing and going back to the time tracking, being proactive of identifying for yourself, what are those activities that are important? Are there any other pragmatic things we could be doing on a daily basis just to increase our sense of time abundance without actually changing our time?

within the day. Yes. The other piece that ties into that sense of time poverty is our confidence in being able to achieve what we set out to do. That sense of self-efficacy is one of the ways that you can address your sense of time affluence. What's interesting is that I actually share, and I have research to show that even though when we feel time poor, the things that we often neglect are slowing down to help others out because we feel like we don't have time. So we don't take the time to help others. But we found that when people spend time to help others, it actually makes them feel like they have more time. And the reason for that is because when you do do something to help someone, it makes you feel really effective. And then that sense of like, oh my gosh,

I accomplished so much with that half hour, it makes you realize, just how much you can accomplish with your time more generally. And it's important, though, that it's like the sense of giving time, not that time is being taken. Because when you give your time, that's what increases the sense of self-efficacy. Also, exercise. Exercise is one of these things that when we feel like we don't have time, we neglect. But what exercise does do is it increases your sense of self-efficacy. When I do go for a run in the morning,

during that time, it gives me a sense of confidence that I can take on the day and the tasks. And even though going into it, I'm like, I don't have time to go for this run. When I'm on the run, I'm like, oh my gosh, bring it on day by the time I get back from my run. I don't have that feeling of limitation that time poverty like makes us feel. So exercise, giving some time to others. and the third one is experiencing awe. Research shows that when we are exposed to something that gives us a sense of awe, that it expands our perspective.

Getting out into nature is one way to do that. Going to a cool live performance. A Taylor Swift concert. Totally, right? And when you feel a sense of awe, it expands your sense of time. So that Taylor Swift concert, even if you're like, dude, I don't have time. And the whole day leading into it, you're like stressed about getting there and the meetings that you have the next day. When you're at that concert and you are feeling total awe by her awesomeness, you're not worried about deadlines because we feel this sense of expansion.

Is there any fast ways to inject awe into your day to create a sense of time expansion? You can go to like a park and I don't know if that counts as nature, but you can't drive out to like a magnificent mountain range for most of us. I would love to go to a Taylor Swift concert in the middle of my day, but that doesn't happen. So are there any like micro-aws that we could inject? That's a great question. It doesn't need to be like going to a national park. If you notice, if you're paying attention, awe can come from when you see a sunset, even if it's over a city's skyline. or the sun rising or looking up at the night sky and actually noticing the moon.

So taking these micro moments to appreciate the awe that is around us is always going to be time well spent because that's a time expander. Yes. Okay. I love that. You also talk about you can literally add more time to your day by buying time back. But a lot of people have a very strong aversion to that. why do you find that that is the case and what are some ways that we can overcome that

and start using our money to buy our time to increase our happiness? This is coming out of research, not my own. It's by Ashley Willens and her colleagues where they find that outsourcing, basically spending money to buy better time. People who do this are significantly happier because when you're buying out of household chores, you know, that was one of the activities that is not very happy. And you then reallocate that time towards, say, social connection that does make you happier than the happiness comes from spending more time on these activities that are worthwhile. A barrier is guilt. The barrier,

actually surprisingly, isn't about affordability because there's so many services now that are more financially accessible. Like, yes, it might be a little bit more to use Instacart, for instance, or have your groceries delivered. But by saving you the two hours of going to the grocery store, actually, the thing that I use are these meal services. I do not like to cook. And I would rather, instead of those two hours at the grocery store, have the hour of

sitting down at the table with my family and actually being together, great source of satisfaction, fulfillment, connection, happiness. And yes, it did cost a little bit more money for a mostly prepared meal to be delivered that we put together in 10 minutes. But it is absolutely worth it because it allows me to reallocate my time in other ways. guilt is the barrier because often people feel like if I can do it, then I should do it. But just because you can do it, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most worthwhile use of your time. My dissertation work was all about people who are more focused on time as their critical resource versus money are happier. And when we lead people to focus on time versus focus on money, it actually leads them to be happier because they're more intentional with how they spend their time. It's that intentionality and just thinking about what are these worthwhile ways of spending. I share in the book an example, and she asked that she remained nameless that she and her husband

would have these arguments every Sunday around like cleaning the apartment. And she was quite uncomfortable with the idea of having someone come clean. But when it was like these arguments every weekend and they like weren't, you know, saying yes to like going to friends barbecues on Sundays because it was like cleaning apartment time. And throughout the weekend, they were both on each other's cases about when are they going to clean the apartment. And then she went ahead and agreed that every two weeks they would have someone come clean. And it was game changing. And I would actually even say, and she might even say life changing, because. of how it influenced not only the time she spent on the weekend, but also how she engaged

with her husband over the weekend and removing that stress, as well as opening that time to spend in more enriching ways. I very rarely get genuinely excited about skincare, but this is one of the most innovative products that I have come across in years, and I am so obsessed with it. I've been telling all of my friends to get it, so now I need to tell you guys. Here's some science first. Your skin isn't just getting older. It's being actively broken down by something called senescent cells.

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And I had such a roadblock against it for, I don't know, I've had the idea for over a year. And I just like could not bring myself to do it. And then one month I calculated the amount of money that I was spending on takeout and also on like fashion purchases that didn't really give me any joy. And I was like, that is so much more than I could spend somebody to make me. me this food that's really nourishing, that tastes good. And I started doing it. I've been doing it for a few months now. And it has truly transformed my entire life. The amount of anxiety that's assuaged by knowing that I have a fridge and freezer full of healthy meals that are ready to go. I don't think about breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I don't think about grocery shopping, which I always

hated grocery shopping. Doing that little bit of math took this thing from being this completely indulgent, just like out of reach activity to being like, no, this is actually the thing that will make me so much happier than these other things that I'm spending my money on. Absolutely. That's such a fantastic example. And as you pointed out, that sweater that you may have bought or spent that money on that month instead, it's not going to have the same effect. And research shows, actually, material purchases don't lead to as much and as lessing

happy as experiential purchases. And I would absolutely say that outsourcing your meal creation is an experiential purchase and investment that as you're experiencing is absolutely worth the money. Okay. I have a question. I literally know in every single fiber of my being that I would be happier calling a friend or taking a walk outside or exercising, but it feels so much more high effort than binging a TV show or scrolling. And so I default to these things that I know aren't as satisfying, but they just feel easier. The lift feels lower. I'm tired. What's happening there? And how can I overcome that hurdle? And I think that that happens to so many. It's that default, the not thinking. And honestly, the time tracking is one step because it is so clear. It is so

clear when you're seeing your own ratings. And interestingly, the binge watching the TV is an interesting one because oftentimes people see that actually that first hour is fun. It's the hour two, three, and four. And then those hours two, three, and four every night of the week turns out to be a lot of time. And I know that before you were saying with scrolling, it's just a little time here and a little time there. But the binge watching every night can absolutely be reallocated towards one of those nights of meeting up with a friend for dinner and going out, getting off the couch. And yes, it requires that initial coordination to make it. And often, And as you're on your way out the door, you're like, oh, my God, I'm so tired.

I would just rather stay on the couch. But what happens inevitably is when you're there, you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad that I'm doing this. It's like, you come out of that dinner and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is so worth it. Why am I not doing more of these? So there's the default. And one thing that folks can do is use commitment devices. Actually, my husband and I use a commitment.

commitment device for our Friday night dates. This is such important time that's so easy not to spend. It's so easy not to spend because we have the sense that we always have access to each other. And we're both super busy with our work. But it's so important because amidst the busyness of our lives, if we aren't intentional about creating this time where the focus is on each other, then we just lose touch. So we have these Friday night dates where it is about getting out of the house and going to do something. And inevitably on Fridays, we are tired and it's just easier to stay on the couch. So what we do is we have a babysitter who is scheduled and she shows up every Friday at six and we have to pay her regardless. So on those nights where it's just easier to stay on the couch,

she's there. We have to pay her. So we're like, all right, let's go out of the house. And when we do, we're so glad that we did. Another commitment device could be, for example, example, meeting up with a friend every week to go for that run or to go to a class. It's easier for you to be like, oh, I don't have time. I'll just cancel or I'm too tired. I'll just cancel. But when you have someone that's going to be meeting up with you, then you feel more obligated. So it gets you there. And then inevitably, when you're spending that time, it's like, oh, it was so worth it. So it does require some intentionality going into it. And in the second to last chapter, of happier hour. I actually pull all of the strategies together and have people design their ideal

week. Just putting those things into the calendar, that dinner with a friend, exercise in whatever way, even that like important work time. Those few hours where you're going to close out an email, put the phone away, not have meetings so you can do the work that's really important to you, designing the ideal week makes it very easy to actually then do it. Once you get to Tuesday night and you see, oh, this is when I'm going to do X, then you'll do it as opposed to the sort of mindless default scrolling and binging that fills all the hours of our time. One of the reasons that I loved that activity in your book is because I think it speaks to the importance of calendaring things too. I think we calendar in all of our have-to-dos and we never calendar in our want-to-dos,

and it gives the sense that our have-to-dos have this incredible importance. And I have to check off all the to-do list things before I get to have fun because that's not on my calendar before I get to have connection and happiness. And we still have to do our have-to-dos more. But it corrected that sense of importance a little bit for me. And I thought that was really helpful. Yeah. Sometimes we do what's easy and available, but often it's sort of we react to what is urgent, irrespective of the importance. And these ways of spending time, that social connection is so important. And we've been talking about hours of the days and our weeks.

But when you think about what our time is, this is the life that we're living, right? Those hours add up to days, those days out up to years, those years out up to our entire lives. And we found in our research actually that when people take a broader perspective of their time, thinking in terms of years, thinking in terms of their life overall, they're happier and have a greater sense of meaning. And interestingly, it's because they spend their time on what's important to them, irrespective of their urgency. When you're thinking about what life do you want to live, even an exercise that is quite sort of intense is I have. my students and I encourage folks to write their own eulogy. It's sort of projecting forward and then looking back on your life, like, what legacy do you want to leave? What life do you want to have lived? How do you want to be remembered? Who do you want to have been? And that is quite clarifying

for what is important. And with that clarity, then it's like, okay, well, how do I spend my hours today so that I end up living this life that I aspire towards. And that's the thing that's going to kick you out of the scrolling and the binging because you're like, oh, wait, this is life. I'm not waiting for it to happen at some point. Like this is happening now. And so if you can design your weeks so that you're making the most of these precious hours that we have to spend. And a lot of it comes down to these really simple experiences and moments. The time tracking is one way to identify those worthwhile ways of spending. But you can even reflect back, think back over the last month or a couple of weeks.

What were those times that you felt most joy? Like what were those moments that were so inspiring, maybe awe-creating, satisfying, joyful? oftentimes there are these really ordinary moments. Like, yes, awesome if you get to go to a Taylor Swift concert. But actually, what people pull up are that conversation, you know, with your husband when you're walking outside. For me, my coffee date with my seven-year-old daughter, where we're just sort of at a local coffee shop, sipping her hot chocolate.

I have my flat white. And it's just these moments. It's noticing the sunset. But it's so easy not to notice those moments because we're in the rush. We're in these time management mode. We're thinking about what's next. We're on our phones, even if we're not actually on our phones. Our phone is next to us reminding us of like all these other things we could and should

be doing. But when you take this broader perspective of time and count, how many times do you actually have left in your life to do these things? you realize that significantly less than you actually initially might think, particularly accounting for the fact that circumstances in your life are likely going to change. If your joyful activity involves someone else, which often it does, they won't be around forever. My research shows that when people realize their time is limited, and that happens naturally with age, But it also happens by these reminders.

Like the pandemic reminded all of us that life is fragile, our time is finite. And so it leads us to savor more to notice those ordinary moments. And there's so much potential joy in them if we pay attention. This is sort of going back to before we were talking about that sense of time poverty, not having enough time for like happiness. But we do. If you're paying attention and being deliberate, pulling some of those wasted hours away from unfund chores by spending a little money against it, or by being intentional and purposeful about reallocating, there are hours in the day.

And there are already those joys in the time we're already spending. So it is absolutely available to all of us. It just requires some intentionality. My favorite tip in the book, and it made me cry, was the one where you had people do the actual math about the amount of time they had left for certain activities, like the idea that we have 22 Winter Olympics in our entire life or that I've been through a third of the springs that I'll ever experience or the guy who had 50% of his dog walks left or. something like that. I just thought it was so poignant. And I would love for you to share that tip in a little bit more detail and maybe just like an example of how we could do that literal math on our own lives. Yeah. And it is so poignant. And it is so powerful. It is counting the times left. So the first step in this is pick something, even that reflection task of like thinking back over

your last few weeks. What is an activity that brought you joy? And then count. How many times have you done this in your life so far? Oftentimes it's a lot because these tend to be very ordinary everyday experiences. So as you mentioned, one of the examples of a student counted walking his dog. Another counted her dinners with her parents. I've counted my coffee dates with my daughter. So you count how many times you've done in your life this far. So I'll use by example. with my coffee days with my daughter. This is an activity that was born out of a very functional routine on my way to drop her off at her preschool before I went into work on Thursdays. I wanted caffeine. So we stopped at the local coffee shop. But it became this really treasured ritual where in the busyness of life in our weeks, this was just 30 minutes. That was about the two of us being together. And then we have our coffee date playlist. We order a Nutella filled quassette. And I calculated we've done about 400 coffee dates together thus far.

Then the next step is to calculate how many times will you do this in the future, accounting for circumstances in your life changing, accounting for the fact that circumstances and the other person's life will change. So I calculated that knowing Lita is now seven. When she's 12, she's probably going to prefer going to the coffee shop with her friends instead of me, sad. So it won't be every week. and then she's going to go off to college, and then she's going to go live in New York, right?

Like, whatever. So I calculated that we have about 230 coffee dates together left. And then the last step is to calculate of your total times, what proportion do you have left? And more often than not, it's significantly less than we think. We are at our tail end. So I realize that Lita and I have about 36% of our coffee dates together left. that's much less than half, and she's only seven years old. And the reason this is so affecting is because it makes us make the time, right?

Like, it makes us carve out and protect the time for these things that bring us joy. So I absolutely, despite the busyness, we'll schedule meetings around the coffee date. now actually it has to happen on the weekend because her school starts earlier. So a Saturday morning before all the activities start, we put on our flip-flops and go to the coffee shop. So it makes us make the time. But also when spending the time realizing how limited this time is, how precious it is, it changes. Like absolutely, phone is put away out of sight. But even that like to-do list, that's sort of always in our minds or always in my mind of like what's next. It's quieted because it's like, oh, this is the time that matters.

And so it's this recognition. Our hours do sum up to our lives, but we make life good by making the most of the hours today. And that both comes from protecting time, carving out time for these things that are so important to us, as well as when we're spending that time being so invested and engaged and present and not distracted and letting our minds wonder to these other stressful places. The guy with the dog took his dog to a special beach to do their walk to make their walk special because he appreciated it so much more. It just made me, yeah, it puts a different lens on all of these things that you're doing.

it makes you appreciate them so so much more. And that student with the dogs, actually, even though I wrote it and I've had to read that passage so many times in the editing process, I still too cry because he calculate. So it says lacking his dog and then from doing the exercise of the counting times left, he then was like very deliberate on weekends of taking the dog to the beach as this fun time. And his calculation actually, even though it was less than he expected, ended up being way less than he expected because a few months later, he found out that his dog had cancer and the dog actually passed. And while so sad, it's also so beautiful that he had been so deliberate in that time that he made, they'd gone to the beach. And he soaked up that time.

We never know how much time we're going to have. But making sure that we're making that most of the time we do have ensures that we won't feel regret. Well, I can't think of a better note to end us on. I'm such a fan of your work, of your beautiful book. Do you want to talk about it for a second in your own words? Happier hour is based off of all of my research as well as that of my colleagues so that folks can apply the insights of how do we invest the hours of our days to feel more satisfied in not only our days and our weeks, but so that we don't look back on our years with regret.

It's been so wonderful to hear how people in reading the book, how it has affected them in these very little but impactful ways. And so I'm really excited that it's out there in the world helping people be happier. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. Thank you so much for having me, Liz. This was really fun. Absolutely worthwhile time.

Stop. The dog part was too much. That exercise is genuinely one of my favorite things, and I think about it with me and Bella and my morning walks and my cuddle sessions with Zach. And it makes me appreciate every waking moment so much more. I highly, highly encourage you to try it. If you're new here, first of all, hello, welcome.

I am so glad that you're here. Next, make sure that you're following the podcast on whatever platform you like to listen on. You're just going to go to the main podcast page. That's the one that lists all of the Liz Moody podcast episodes. And you will see the word follow under the logo on Spotify. And then there's a little follow with a plus sign button on the top right of that same page on Apple Podcasts. That way, all of the new episodes will show up right in your feed. will never miss out on one. And you are definitely going to want to be following along because we

have some amazing episodes coming up, including one all about what we should actually be doing on both a societal and individual level in the face of climate change and an episode all about navigating division of labor and relationships. So make sure that you are following so you do not miss out. And we are officially in the six-week countdown for my new book, A Hundred Ways to Change Your Life, which combines the amazing science-backed research and powerful expert insights we get here on the pod with action steps you can use to change your life today. We've got sections on setting goals and sticking to habits, sections on longevity and gut health, sections on romantic relationships and friendships.

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So that's why we're offering this little bonus, this $1,000 gift card if you go to 100 Ways to Change Your Life.com, 100 ways to change your life.com. Okay, I love you and I will see you next Wednesday on the next episode of the Liz Moody podcast. I'm genuinely confused how masterclass gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes. I use it when I want to learn things directly, like the cooking class from Thomas Keller has all of the wisdom that you would normally have to go to culinary school for.

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