The Liz Moody Podcast - What's REALLY Causing Your Bloating & Gut Health Issues, The Truth About Creative Careers, and Rating Popular Wellness Trends with Phoebe Lapine

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

I’m so happy to welcome Phoebe Lapine to the pod. Phoebe is a food and health writer and gluten free chef. She’s written 3 books, including the recently published SIBO Made Simple, which is a must-read guide for anyone struggling with their gut health. We also talk about: What SIBO actually is, including what causes it and how you can know if you have it What people get wrong about the microbiome Why you shouldn’t snack between meals What hidden causes of autoimmune diseases The first step anyone with gut issues should take to figure out what’s going on 3 lifestyle things healthy people should do NOW to avoid gut issues down the line 5 easy, free gut health fixes you can do IMMEDIATELY Misconceptions about the low-FODMAP diet + exactly when it makes sense to follow it The top 3 “weird wellness things” that have made the biggest difference in her health Her thoughts on wellness trends like kombucha, celery juice and juicing in general, bone broth, collagen, and probiotics The one food that can help with sugar cravings Advice for supporting a partner with chronic illness Her best tips for cultivating a creative career, including how and when to leave a corporate job A very frank discussion on the finances of creative life You can find more from Phoebe at feedmephoebe.com. Phoebe and I would both LOVE to hear from you as you listen, so screenshot and tag us with any reactions or thoughts—I’m @lizmoody and she’s @phoebelapine on Instagram. I can’t wait to hear what you think—I think you’re gonna be obsessed with this one. PS: Have you snagged my Foodie preset pack? You can get all 8 presets, designed to make your food pics look as good as they taste, at lizmoody.com/presets. PPS: Healthier Together is officially a number one best-seller! You can get your copy on Amazon or at lizmoody.com/cookbook. Please keep sending me your creations on Instagram—they make me so happy! This episode is sponsored by Organifi, the makers of my favorite caffeine-free energy drink, Red Juice. You can go to www.organifi.com/healthiertogether and use the code “healthiertogether” for 20% off your order. This episode is sponsored by LifeSeasons, a company that makes amazing supplements for gut health, inflammation, immunity, and many, many more, including my beloved allergy blend. Go to https://shop.lifeseasons.com?current-token=P8gRvbln and use the code “healthiertogether” for 15% off your order. Healthier Together cover art by Zack. Healthier Together music by Alex Ruimy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the Healthier Together podcast. I'm your host, Liz Moody, and I am a cookbook author and long-time journalist. I am so excited about today's episode, which is one of my favorite types. It's jam-packed with actionable advice and information, but it's also just really fun and chatty, since the guest is one of my real-life friends. I am so happy to welcome Phoebe Lapine to the pod. Phoebe is a food and health writer and gluten-free chef. She's written three books, including the recently published Sebo Made Simple,

which is all about her gut health journey, which we definitely get into here. We talk a ton about gut health on this episode, including how to know what's wrong with your gut, what SIBO is, and how to know if you have it, why you shouldn't snack between meals, what people get wrong about the microbiome, misconceptions about the low Fodmap diet, easy, totally free gut fixes you can do right now and a ton more. We also talk about Phoebe's take on wellness trends like kombucha, celery juice, bone broth, and more. the top three weird wellness things that have made the biggest difference in her overall health, her best advice for partners helping their loved ones through health challenges,

her best tips for cultivating a creative career, including a really frank discussion on some of the downsides and the financial elements. It's not only a must listen episode if you have any gut health issues, but just a fun one if you want to uplevel your health, creativity, or relationships. Phoebe and I would both love to hear from you as you listen, so screenshot, and tag us with any reactions or thoughts. I'm at Liz Moody and she is at Phoebe Lapine on Instagram. I cannot wait to hear what you think. I think you are going to be obsessed with this one. Without further ado, let's get into the episode.

Well, Phoebe, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on. I'm so thrilled to be here. It's, you know, been something I've been looking forward to for many years. For your whole life, really. I feel like your whole life brought you to this moment. My favorite interviews are always people that I, no one I'm friends with in real life because I feel like I have dirt. Not dirt. Like I have

information on you from like long car rides. That's like conversations. And so I get to bring that in instead of having to like do all my research and stuff. I've been researching for years. You have. Yeah. Those five hour car rides. All right. So let's start with gut health because that's what your most recent book is about. That's the thing that I'm constantly, I've interviewed so many doctors and gut health experts. I'm constantly surprised at how good you are at knowing stuff that even they don't know. Maybe because you've interviewed so many of them for your own podcast and your own work, and then also really translating that into layman's information.

So let's go with SIBO and maybe your general gut health journey. Just kind of walk us through that for you. Sure. Well, my journey has been long. And thank you for those kind words. I don't know more than those doctors. but I hope that for the layman, I can digest it a little bit better. So I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune disease when I was 22.

And that was kind of around when my gut started to malfunction, I would say. And of course, the Hashimoto's itself was met with all these other symptoms. And I kind of spent years after the diagnosis, like slowly working my way down to my rock bottom by going unmedicated and living a, wildlife of a young 20-something in New York City and being super mature. So eventually I was in a state where I would basically be curled up in the fetal position every time I ate. It was also at the time that I was like trying to make it as like a young food professional and catering and private chefing and I don't know, trying to write for like big food magazines. And so I was just so terrified of having to take anything out of my diet. But eventually I kind of got on the holistic

Landwagon saw a functional medicine doctor, went on an elimination diet. And that was my first foray into our world that we're currently sitting in. But that was kind of like the first chapter. And then I'd say like kind of the pendulum swung from like the denial side to more of the obsession side. And I just started to get like really bogged down by what everything in the wellness blogosphere had to say. And everything it was putting on my to do list and everything was going to cost me. So eventually I kind of like had my come to Jesus moments and decided to like do this big wellness project where I made one change, one month at the time. That was my last book.

So I won't get too much into that. But essentially for that, I was really looking at kind of like 360 wellness. Like how do we tackle kind of all of the obvious buckets like sleep, stress, detox, quote unquote, hydration, diet, of course, and gut health, quote unquote, gut health. And I really thought that I, I did a ton of research. I interviewed a ton of people at that time, too. And I really thought that I knew all there was to know about gut health. Like at that time, I was eating all the fermented foods and like crushing all the legumes and cauliflower and inulin rich veggies. And it was all going really well, like kind of the spoiler alert is, you know, my, my project really did help me kind of get on a better playing field with my Hashimoto's.

But then like seven months after the book came out, which was, I don't even know, you know, probably like two years later. I started to feel like these mysterious symptoms like cropping in my life again. And it was like a little bit different than before. But basically every time I ate, I would just like balloon into like pregnancy level bloat. and I was like burping a lot during meals, which I feel like was a pretty red flag symptom that I had never really experienced before. And so eventually, you know, I got back in the doctor's office and he immediately tested me for something called SIBO. And I didn't really heard of it much in my research prior. One thing that I had come across was the low FodMap diet. And I

feel like we probably had conversations about this at the time. But I was just, just like, I do not understand this diet. It makes zero sense. Literally, all of the things that you're not supposed to eat are all of the things that every gut expert I've talked to says that you're supposed to eat for good, for quote unquote, good gut health. CBO is a completely different issue, though, that I think affects so many people. And one of the reasons why I'm now very passionate about talking about it and advocating for it and spreading a way. awareness is that, you know, I think so many people are just kind of getting that surface level gut information and following the advice I talked about before, crushing all the probiotic foods

and drinking all the kombucha, certainly like I was off the back of my book and just making myself more and more miserable. And in reality, I think a lot of people with quote unquote gut issues have like more acute problems that, you know, CBO being one of them. So do you want me to define it for people. Oh yeah. I would love what what is happening with Thiebo. Okay. So CBO stands for small intestine bacterial overgrowth. And it is not an issue of like good versus bad bacteria. It's a type of dysbiosis, which just means an imbalance. You can have dysbiosis in the large intestine in just terms of the various species that are present. But in CBO, it's an issue of location. So your bacteria are overgrowing too far up in the intestinal tract.

And I think this is where, you know, kind of the dumbed down language of the wellness world, like, really doesn't serve us because I like just kind of conflated good gut bacteria with like the entire gut. And in reality, like we're mainly talking about the large intestine. And each of our organs and areas of the gut, which is basically like our entire digestive system. It all has its own different microbiomes, its own different ecosystems. But the small intestine is, you know, interesting in that it doesn't have much of a role for bacteria at all. In the large intestine, they have lots of different functions and they work in tandem with

your immune system and so many different things. But in the small intestine, there is like a very thin mucous lining separating your immune system from anything that's coming into the plant. It's also where you absorb your nutrients. So if they're like large amounts of bacteria there, not only are they competing for your nutrients and causing a lot of inflammation in terms of the gas that they release when they eat your food, but then they also can easily kind of work their way through that really thin mucus barrier, which is there to kind of separate, you know, something that is quote unquote other from your immune system. and that causes like a whole downwind autoimmune effect with leaky gut being kind of at the center

of it. And yeah, it can be just a big old mess. But I think like the central symptom that most people with SIBO experience is that just debilitating gas. And if you think about it, it really does tie into like why the low Fodmep diet makes sense because they're eating their favorite foods. and their favorite foods, if they were in the right place, would be hunky dory perfectly fine. But because they're so far up in the intestinal tract, that gas is nowhere to go. So it just gets trapped. And people experience like that really uncomfortable distension. It also, you know, is looking for any sort of exit ramp, hence the burping, since it's

a little bit further from the normal exit ramp. And yeah. And then if leaky gut does happen as a consequence, which it often does, then there are all these kind of autoimmune type symptoms like skin rashes or sensitivities, food sensitivities, joint pain, brain fog, kind of a whole host of different things. Like the list of symptoms is a long one. But they say that over 60% of all IBS cases are actually being caused by CBO. And I think that makes sense because the low FODMEP diet, again, it's removing all of these quote unquote good gut foods. So why?

are people feeling so much better on this diet? To me, there could be other reasons, of course, but to me, CBO is one that makes a lot of sense. So why does the bacteria get there? Like, what causes CBO? Yeah. So there are a few different ways, like, well, there are a few different buckets of risk factors. But I will just say, like, per your first question, I feel like I understand the actual mechanics of my digestive system now in such a more in-depth way than I ever did, kind of like reading top line about gut health. So let me give you a little schooling. It all kind of comes down to the way obviously your body is designed to function. There are a lot of safeguards to make sure that bacteria that's just naturally coming in

through the nose and mouth never make it to the small intestine in a way that they can take up residency. So there are all these anti-microbial substances, primarily your stomach acid, but then also, of course, like your pancreatic enzymes and your bile, and your immune system itself that are kind of designed to, again, like neutralize some sort of invader. And then there is just the mechanism of the small intestines. It's not designed to cause any sort of traffic jam for anything to, like, pull off the highway and linger.

So one of the biggest buckets for SIBO is something called the Migrating Motor Complex, which is the street sweeping mechanism that like cleans up after a meal, that kind of goes off the rails. And that's one of the big reasons why bacteria could overgrow. It's also a reason why maybe you have candida or a fungal overgrowth. It's kind of like it has to do with the mechanisms. So anything could overgrow. It's just an issue of like stagnation. And I heard you talk about that at the talk that we did, that one talk in New York. And you said that one of the best ways to combat, the migrating motor complex is to just not snack between your meals, to eat your meals and, like, leave four to five hours. Would you say that's generally the cause of it then, too,

is over snacking? I'd say, like, honestly, it's kind of similar to an autoimmune disease. Anyone who's familiar, intimately familiar, maybe has one themselves, know that, you know, there's, you can rarely point to like one specific thing and be like, that caused my autoimmune disease. Sometimes there'll be like a catalyst event. But if you look at the kind of the risk factor list, and it's the same with SIBO, like the risk factor list includes so many things. Like all that stuff just kind of piles up. And maybe there is like one thing that like lights the match and sets the whole thing on fire. With SIBO, often it is food poisoning that causes the migrating motor complex to really break down. But even if you think about that, it's like, well, like, how did you get food

poisoning? Do you have low stomach acid? Like is your immune system? like not working properly. So yeah, so the migrating motor complex, what's really interesting is that it only kicks in during a fasting state of 90 minutes or more, which, you know, in the old days was super easy because we were not like eating around the clock. But yeah, I would say that snacking is for sure a risk factor. I wouldn't say that like anyone has like snacking as like their sole cause of SIBO, but it could certainly be something that's like exacerbating it.

Is that to a level even where you would say that healthy people should try to not eat with like 90 minutes between their snacks or meals so that they can experience that sort of street sweeper effect and get everything cleared out for the next meal? Yes. I mean, I think we're all individual, unique beings. But again, you think about the way the digestive system was designed to function. And I think it's really hard to make an argument for needing to snack around the clock. I mean, if you are hungry around the clock, it probably says more about your blood sugar than your metabolism, like, as a healthy thing. So there's the migrating motor complex, and that can get messed up by potentially snacking,

but also something like food poisoning. Do you think it was food poisoning for you? Are there other causes of sebo? Do you think your sebo caused your Hashimoto's, or do you think your Hashimoto's, like, cause your sebo? That's a really interesting question that I can't answer. I think that my Hashimoto's caused my SIBO, but I think that food poisoning caused my Hashimoto's. I think food poisoning was the match that, like, lit my autoimmune disease on fire. You know, and that can cause

damage to the gut in various ways outside of SIBO. I mean, I think that I probably had like a parasite that just, I don't know if I ever, maybe it's still with me. Who knows? Well, we'll talk about all the weird ass shit you do for your I'm embarrassed this. Later, don't worry. If somebody, okay, so let's start with, if somebody hears about CBO and is like, that doesn't sound good. I want to definitely avoid that. What's like one or two lifestyle tips you would give them to not get Cbo. Yeah, I think meal spacing is a really good one that you mentioned. And I think if you have something that puts you kind of on the risk factor list, Hashimoto's being one of them, a lot of autoimmune diseases being on the list, there's kind of like a vicious cycle with autoimmune diseases in SIBO because, as I mentioned,

SIBO can cause leaky gut, leaky gut can cause autoimmune disease. But then there are all these autoimmune diseases that I think probably like it's correlated to like autoimmune disease being caused in some way by some sort of gut dysfunction and just like wear and tear on the gut. Like colitis and celiac would be kind of examples. Like there's definitely something going on with the gut motility, which is essentially the migrating motor complex. but they haven't kind of zeroed in through research on the exact mechanism. The exact mechanism with food poisoning is really interesting because what happens is when your immune system rallies and begins fighting like certain types of bacteria, they produce a toxin that through

molecular mimicry, which basically just means like your body's mistaken identity can attack the nerve cells of the migrating motor complex. So it's not like an ongoing auto immunity, but it's like an acute case of autoimmunity. And that causes, you know, so you may experience like miserable diarrhea or, you know, the effects of food poisoning for like a short period of time, then feel much better. But then since you're not, since your migrating motor complex is not functioning, then over the course of weeks and months, it's possible that things become stagnant and overgrow. So I think people sometimes just don't actually put those two things together because you wouldn't think if you started to have like symptoms kind of creeping into your life in a month,

like, oh, that was that food poisoning. Some people are like, oh, I was never the same, like, since that event. But for a lot of people, it can be just like a really sneaky thing. But that's one one thing that they've uncovered in research as like a given. And they do think that that is one of the most common causes of SIBO. And then there's a whole other bucket. Sorry, I'm get to your lifestyle. Your lifestyle easy tip. question in a second, but there's another bucket of just like structural issues. And I think this one's really important, especially for women, because if you've had any sort of abdominal surgery, like a C-section or laparoscopy for endometriosis or a hysterectomy, even if it's like by the best laparoscopic

surgeon out there, there's still a chance you're going to have some internal scar tissue from that experience. So even if like everything appears fine on the outside, you have just like a small mark of what happened. Inside, you know, things can form, like your fascia can kind of change. And the way that it's kind of described by practitioners who work specifically with this is like, it's like cling wrap, like plastic wrap. So it can kind of stick to your organs and just cause them to not, you know, move as freely as they once did. And then there are all these other. Wait, that's a bummer. I like, I'm terrified. Zach and I even decide whether we want kids yet. But like, if we do, I'm terrified of giving birth and the idea that I could just potentially get a C-section, even though I know all my

wellness friends would be so mad at me for it, is like been a comforting thing in the back of my mind. I'm attracted to it as well. Don't worry. No, but there are things you can do. Like there's certain types of bodywork that can help you kind of rehab that surgery afterwards that, you know, in this country is not just like something that would ever be recommended to you off the operating table. Like internal stuff? No. Like it's called like visceral manipulation or craniosacral therapy. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like very targeted. Like it kind of feels like you're barely being touched, but like they're literally just like moving your organs. Okay. So like just it's more like if you feel like you're having sebo or gut issues, potentially consider that there could be an actual physical cause to it in that way. And I do think there often is.

I actually think bodywork of that in that genre. is like such a secret weapon for a lot of people. I know it was for me. I had like a crazy what I thought was like a Cbo relapse that was not Cbo at all. It was just like I had like completely compressed my vagus nerve from doing too many crunches and Pilates. Oh my God. That might be one of the most first world sentences you've ever said. Okay. So are there other sort of things we should do if we should do? just if I feel healthy now, but I want to avoid getting Cibo in the future? Yes.

I mean, I think it's all kind of common sense stuff that none of us probably do well enough, like chew your food. So chewing your food would be a big one. I also think, like, if you're someone who already has kind of IBS symptoms, like, don't get bogged down with like the low FODMap diet or any of these questions of like what you're eating, but just rethink how you're eating it. So a chewing, be like try pureeing, try, you know, just cooking the food in the first place. Like I think a lot of people just like will eat a big woody salad and be like, this is healthy.

Why am I miserable? And it's like, oh, because like cold food and raw food are both really hard in your system. And if you're someone who's like prone to a more stagnant inflamed system, cough cough, haashi-pasi people, you know, that may be tough for you. So chewing your food, heating your food, puring your food, not laying horizontal immediately after dinner, eating dinner early enough, I think is like kind of big in the meal spacing subject. And that's because, of course, like, you know, you're migrating motor complex is going to be doing its most thorough street sweeping overnight. So if you have like undigested food, that's just like kind of sitting there and festering. that's not great. I have so many others.

Like one for ladies, I would also say is like not wearing tight pants all the time. Even like yoga pants? Well, I think there are some yoga pants that like are more forgiving than others. Well, I won't hate on certain brands. I don't know who your responses are. But my outdoor voices. Oh my God. I hate on outdoor voices.

I think I've literally called them out an Instagram post. And I remember the day I did it, I was like, I guess they're never going to sponsor me, but they make me feel like a sausage. I had to give away all mine. I like saved one pair that I wear like sometimes just in photos. Which I find very frustrating because their whole thing is that their body inclusive. Like I don't know who they're getting in their ads because those women would not fit the pants that they're selling. Well, they change their materials. I have one pair that I like. They're still on the tighter side and like the less comfortable side, but I can fit in them. And then I bought that that was like a long time ago like in the early stages of the brand and then I bought a few pairs

after that and I could not fit into them. And I'm like, it's not just that I'm bigger because like the other ones fit. And like the material just feels different. Like I don't know, it became like cheaper. So if something feels tight like on your belly, that's maybe not actually ideal for your really. I'm wearing a dress right now with not even any underwear. I mean, you're doing great. And not what you're not wearing bras. Braves can also be really constructive. I mean, just think about it. Anything that's bearing down on your intestines, like is going to make it harder for food to move through it. I mean, the small intestines have a larger surface area than a football field. And there's like lots of nooks and crannies for, you know, fun bacteria to like throw a party and stay for a while. So if I am having like

some of those symptoms that you talked about, if I'm bloating and burping through all of my meals, how would I know if that's SIBO or not? How would I diagnose myself? Yeah. So you would take a really labor-intensive breath test, which I don't know. I mean, there are worse tests to be had in this world. I mean, at least you- You can do it at home, can't you? Yeah, you can do it at home. It's like a two-to-three-hour test. It requires like 24 hours to like two weeks of just like thinking about it in advance and like making slight adjustments, but 24 hours of like eating a very limited diet and then fasting overnight. But essentially, I think it's really cool. essentially you are drinking a sugar solution and then blowing into these tubes at like 15 to 20 minute

increments. And essentially at the lab, they're like testing the levels of gases in your breath. And the hypothesis, and there's been some argument to the contrary, but the hypothesis is the only thing that could be causing those gases is bacteria. So they look for certain spikes at various intervals. And if they see spikes happening too early, i.e., like before the sugar solution would have managed to make it to your large intestine, where, of course, there's lots of bacteria and you should see a spike. That's a sign of SIBO. So you order like a test. Do you have a blog post that's like how to get your SIBO test, how to do a CPO test, all of that? Okay. So search Phoebe LePine, how to do a Cbo test. You can do it at home, but you need to order something to like blow into, right?

Yes. You need a whole kit. And you need to order the kit. If you want insurance to cover it, you should have a doctor order it for you. Okay. And is there any way to like self-diagnose? Like, I mean, some people do. Some doctors are like the breath test is not a perfect science and it's not. But, you know, there's been people who have like done meta-analysis and said that, okay, like, we don't, sure, like maybe it's not bacteria causing it. Sure. How would we know? But there is a correlation between abnormal breath tests and people getting better after treatment. So there's something, there's something to it. But yeah, some people will just go on symptoms and try a round of treatment and see if they get better. I think it's hard. There are different treatments.

One is like conventional, not conventional antibiotics and like the bad antibiotics. There's like a specific one for SIBO that's quite expensive. So again, if you want insurance to cover it, you should get a test because it's not going to cover it if you don't have a confirmed diagnosis. So what helped, like, do you consider yourself sebo-free at this point? Yeah, I mean, I think so. I still have, like, IBS flares from time to time. I think that's, like, kind of a miscon-you know, people get, like, really, really hung up on sebo and, like, in this crazy, like, kill mindset in regards to bacteria.

And I think in reality, there's just a lot of people who are on the spectrum after the bacteria are gone because of all the damage that they cause. So there's kind of, like, an entire thing. phase of healing that a lot of people just skip over because they're doctors, you know, don't really talk them through it. And so, yeah, those people may still experience symptoms, even though there's no bacteria there. So I know you talk about like whole plans for Sibo in your book and you have so many delicious recipes so that it's not terrible to go through a Sibo treatment plan. But can you just talk a little bit about what worked for you

and what was the most helpful in your own curing Sibo journey? Yeah. So, I mean, I followed the advice of my medical professional, which is how I advise everyone to do it. Because it is, it's really a complicated dance. My book, I hope, will make it as easy as possible to understand your options and talk to your doctor about them. But there is, it's not like a roadmap and this is like how you cure CBO in 21 days. Like there is no one cure or solution for everyone. Like it is actually, and that's true of like, so many different illnesses, but specifically with CBO, like the experts will say, like,

there is no one solution for everyone. Because if you think about it, like all of our microbiomes are more unique than a fingerprint. That can go for, you know, whatever's overgrowing in the wrong place. And so it may react to, you know, certain antibiotics on one person and not on another, certain herbs on one person, not another. So I did an herbal protocol. That's kind of one bucket of options for killing your CBO, killing your bacteria. I'd think most people go through one kill phase or another. A lot of people go through several. Unfortunately, I think people with like kind of chronic issues can really get stuck and just like this horrible cycle of the kill phase and forget about the whole spectrum of healing beyond that. So I was really lucky. I mean, mine was fairly

straightforward at the end of the day. I did my gases weren't that high. So I didn't have like a crazy case of Civo. I can really sympathize with people who do because, like, my symptoms were pretty noticeable, even with that minor case. So I did four weeks, four to six weeks of these compound herbs. There are a few protocols that have been tested and shown to be as effective as the antibiotics. So some practitioners prefer if you're, like, really sensitive to just go with individual herbs, things like oregano, berberine herbs, neem, Alison garlic is one type. It's like kind of a specific antimicrobial derivative of garlic that doesn't irritate people with IBS in the way that eating garlic as part of your meal does. So I did one of these like compound

formulas from a company called biotics. And it was really intense. I think that's, another misconception is like, you know, that you're going to feel better right away. Like my symptoms were definitely worse for the first few weeks. And then I kind of got into a better playing field. But I did the low FODMap diet kind of in tandem. And it's like a tricky thing because diet is not an actual treatment. It is probably the best thing for reducing symptoms, which is important because, you know, that gas, as we said earlier, like it's not just uncomfortable.

it is kind of like inflammatory for the gut. But at the same time, you know, when you're taking away your bacteria's food sources, they can potentially go dormant. So if you're actively trying to kill them, you also don't want that to happen. So it's like kind of a delicate dance. It's like you want to do as much with your diet to make you more comfortable so that like you can actually like get through the treatment, but still kind of, you know, switch. things up enough or like eat a few high FODMAP things here and there so that, you know,

the actual kill protocol is doing what it needs to do. Can you talk to me about low FodMap for a second? Because I do think there's a lot of misconceptions about the low FodMap diet and when people should try it and how long they should be on it. Yeah. So it's a therapeutic diet. It is not like a lifestyle. I get emails all the time from people who are like, yeah, I've been low FodMap for a few

years and I'm doing great. I'm like, oh, gosh, you're not doing great. Like, that's not the goal. Because there is compelling evidence that if you are on a low-fodmap diet for something like longer than two months, it does like real damage to the health of your bacterial ecosystem and your large intestine, which is, again, like what we rely on as like the basis for a lot of our good mental and physical health. So essentially, you're taking away, again, all those foods that most microbiome specialists tell you to eat to quiet the symptoms. Do you know the acronym? I do, but I'm really bad at saying the words. When I recorded the audio book for the book, I was like having a little high time. We won't judge you. Just try it. Okay. Fructans,

Alligliococerides, that's the one I really struggle with. Monosaccharides, monosaccharides, monosaccharides, and polyols. And so those are essentially talking about the types. Okay, the type, go ahead. So, yeah, they're not carbohydrates and, like, the way we think of carbohydrates, like starches. They're, like, the building blocks of all foods. Like, that's what also bothers me about, like, quote-unquote, low-carb diets.

I'm like, everything's a carb. If you're eating a vegetable, you're eating a carb. So, yes, they are not something that you're, like, allergic to. They are in all plants. And it's why, you know, the list of things on the low-farmap diet that you're not allowed to eat includes tons of really healthy vegetables. Again, hence why you don't want to be on it for a really long time. But, you know.

Wait, can you say something? Like, it's like apples and a lot of fruit. There's a lot of, because, again, like the, um, disaccharides and monosaccharides. And garlic and onions I know is on there, which is so sucky. All of the oleums are on there. That's really tough. That's like what makes it the toughest diet because it's really hard to eat out.

But then like all those inulin rich veggies like asparagus, artichokes, Brussels, sprouts, cauliflower, mushrooms, avocado. I mean, there's so many. It's butter and a squash. like everything. But, you know, the positive of the low-fadmap diet, I think, is that, again, it's not like these things are completely off the table forever, but some of them are not completely off the table at all. You just have to eat really small quantities, which is annoying. And people, like, I didn't want to at the time, like, have to remember, like,

oh, yeah, I can have sweet potato, but, like, only if it's, like, half a cup on the plate. Like, no, I wasn't going to do it. Oh, I can have avocado, but only an egg. of it at a time. Yeah, I was just going to be like, nope, not going to eat those things. My book makes it a lot easier for you and like to keep that diversity. But yeah, it's a lot to think about. But I think in the best application and, you know, forcing yourself to do a reintroduction and to learn something for it is that like actually diversity on the plate is the goal. Like you just want to be eating smaller quantities of more vegetables and not just like going super hard on like eating like a whole head of cauliflower for dinner as, you know, your main course.

That's just going to be a lot for a lot of people. I've recipe in my book for a whole head of cauliflower. I mean, it's delicious. I used to make it all the time. I mean, I used to be very much like a blue plate special kind of cook. Like, we'll have broccoli as our side tonight. Like, we'll have Brussels sprouts as our side. And like at restaurants, too, just like ordering a big side of Brussels sprouts

and like eating the whole thing. So for like healthy people, people again, who are just kind of looking to have their gut, be at its best, the takeaway from that kind of, those learnings would just be like diversify your plate as much as possible. But for people who are experiencing gut issues, do you think all gut issues? It's really about alleviation of symptoms rather than curing things, right? And that's the biggest misconception with SIBO that leads to a lot of food, fear, and disordered eating, frankly. Because unfortunately, it is a condition that is directly triggered by food. I mean, it's like there's no way around it.

you're experiencing symptoms because of bacteria eating your food. So it's actually kind of a telltale sign of like it being sebo versus another gut issue is that you feel it immediately upon eating. If you're like feeling like a bad tummy the next day, like maybe it's because you're, you don't have a certain type of bacteria in your large intestines that helps to break down legumes as well. That's just like one example. It could be many, many things.

But for sebo people, it's like a frequency thing and like a location. thing. It's like you feel it kind of far up in your, in your chest, like almost like pressing up against your ribs. It's not like down by your uterus, like a period type bloating. It's a little bit more like uncomfortable distension. But yeah, I mean, the thing that you're kind of teasing out with the low-fodemap diet, well, sorry, I'll get back. So the misconception is that starving the bacteria by removing those favorite foods is going to make your treatment work better. And it's just not correlated at all. It may make you less symptomatic, but you can cure Cebo without diet completely. You might be miserable, like, because it's going to be pretty

intense, but it's completely possible. What about people who just have IBS? I think a lot of people who feel like they just have IBS. Do you feel like there's a cause to that? And again, low FODMap is just kind of fixing their symptoms and they should use that as a sign as like a stop gap while they figure out the causes? Yeah. And I think people like find low FodMap and they're like, this is the solution and never look for the underlying cause, which is problematic. Or they just never do the reintroduction. And in reality, most people are only reactive to like one acronym or like even certain foods within that acronym usually. And, you know, again, it's a quantity issue. So you're in the reintroduction versus like a traditional elimination diet. You're like hedging for

that threshold. So you're not just like trying a food one day and then being like, me, you're like trying it at a low quantity, just then trying it at a medium quantity, then trying it at like an aggressive quantity to kind of figure out where your tipping point is. And most people can find like, you know, most people can reintroduce almost everything in small quantities and should, absolutely should. And you can work your way up to the larger quantities as you heal your gut in other ways. And as you just like, I don't know, I mean, when you go off of anything, for a certain amount of time, your body loses its ability in some ways to digest it. You may not be producing that enzyme anymore or what have you. I do think that all of these things, you know, take some cross-training afterwards. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast. When you think about strength and resilience, like your ability to feel energized, to recover well, to stay strong as you get older, what do you think that actually comes from? Most people say working out or good nutrition, and yes, of course that matters. But there is a biological foundation underneath all of that that most people are completely overlooking. I have been

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They have a master herbalist on staff with the latest research and validation methods. They're even running a number of their own clinical trials, which I think is so, cool. You can go to lifeseasons.com or click the link in the show notes to check out their full line. They have products for gut health, inflammation, immunity, and many, many more, including my beloved allergy blend. They have also given me a discount code. You can use healthier together, like the name of this podcast, all one word healthier together, for 15% off your order. I cannot wait to hear what you think. Now, let's get back to the episode. So if somebody's listening to this and they just kind of feel like they have general gut issues,

like they feel like they get stomach ach sometimes. Maybe they're not pooping as regularly as they would like to or they're pooping too often or they feel bloated a lot. Do you recommend starting with the SIBO test? You recommend starting with the low FODMAP diet? How do we kind of like get to the bottom of what's causing it and what we should do? Yeah. Well, it depends on the severity.

I mean, unfortunately now that SIBO, one part of SIBO awareness that is not a positive is people just like hearing the symptoms and being like, oh my God, I have SIBO. But the reality is that over 40 different conditions can cause IBS symptoms. I think it's worthwhile to over the years, especially if you've had gut issues your whole life to troubleshoot. I mean, there's a lot of undiagnosed celiac disease in this world. There's like a lot of kind of bigger issues, lifelong issues that can go undiagnosed if you think that CBO or IBS is like a diagnosis that is like book clothes, like I'm going to move

on with my life. because even SIBO itself, I mean, that's the reason why it becomes chronic is because people don't take the time to dig into their root cause. And kind of SIBO, similar to IBS is not a disease. It's just a sign that something's gone wrong in the body. And usually, as we talked about earlier, like it's several things. It's like a whole list of things. And sometimes, you know, maybe that that root cause is not something you can reverse. You know, my Hashimoto's at this point is probably here to stay, but I know how to kind of safeguard against, you know, what is making me more prone to SIBO because of my Hashimoto's, the motility issue, the low stomach acid, you know,

these are things that I can kind of safeguard in my daily life. So in terms of people who are just like really unsure, I mean, I would first of all just find a practitioner who's like committed to the process of root causes because there are a- I know, but that's so hard. It's so hard. You live in New York. You also have access to so many doctors just because of what you do. I think New York is the worst place for doctors, by the way. Do you? I think I picture people living in like smaller towns in places where they go into their doctor and they consistently say like, my stomach really hurts.

And the doctor is just like, oh, you're stressed and sends them away like time or have some tums or something like that. And so I do, I'm with you in terms of one of the things I really like about your approach is you don't. You're not like, oh, it's holistic or Western medicine. You really integrate the two. But I think the frustration is when people feel like their Western doctors don't take them seriously. They can't afford the fancy holistic doctors, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah.

I mean, it's really frustrating. There are a lot of people going it alone. And it's hard for me as like a lay person because I'm getting, you know, messages all the time asking me for advice. Because, I mean, even I will say, even I who saw a great. great functional medicine doctor in New York had to do a lot of it myself. You know, it's just like even the best doctor is going to send you home with like only so much information that you're going to then have to kind of dig into a little bit further. But I would say that said,

in terms of kind of the root cause list, like you need a doctor to test for those things. Like even, you know, Joe, even like a conventional, there are a lot of conventional slash Western medicine doctors who are not educated on this, but who might be willing to run the test for you, who might be open to learning about SIBO, who might be open to just ordering the test, who, you know, can submit the test for celiac, you know, who can refer you to a GI to rule out IBD. You know, these are all things that need to slowly be ticked off. Unfortunately, if you don't find something else kind of along the way. I mean, even for me, I had never had a colonoscopy or endoscopy before and like kind of realize at some point in my journey post-cebo, I was like, oh, God, like, you know,

these things are, you know, I'm high risk for these things because I know that, you know, they are such a big, they have such a big correlation with SIBO. And, you know, if you're already on the autoimmune spectrum, it's very possible that there's more than one thing going on. Like, I need to finally invest in ruling these things out. So you would kind of go to your normal doctor and maybe ask for some tests, try to get to the root cause, and then kind of examine protocols for whatever comes back positive if something does. That would be sort of your first port in the storm if you're having gut issues. Well, no. I mean, I think that there is something that can be done. There are a lot of things that can be done on your own if you want to just have immediate relief,

like some sort of elimination diet being one of them. I don't think a low Fodmap diet is honestly the first step. I think a lot of people like it could be like a basic food sensitivity or allergen. So, you know, I would kind of go with the big guns first. And that actually I think goes for SIBO people as well. It's kind of one of the things that I think my book tackles that a lot of the CBO reading I've done and interviews I've done and with specialists don't is that hello, like if CBO causes leaky gut, like a lot of people are going to be having immune reactions to food. And low FodMap is not an allergen-free diet. You can have gluten, you can have dairy, you can have soy and corn. You can have all these things to some extent on a low Fodmap diet.

So my book doesn't include any of those things just because I think it's important to, again, like rule out the big guns because it could be, you know, you just have a case of leaky gut and have food sensitivities and don't have SIBO at all. There are so many different things that can cause leaky gut. So, yeah, I would say you can experiment a bit with food. if food doesn't seem to do it. Again, if it's like a frequency thing, like if you're having stomach issues every once and a while, that could 100% be an ingredient you're eating.

If you're miserable every time you eat, that kind of points to, you know, something else going on. So I think that honestly, like some sort of testing is worthwhile at that point because just going on a low Fodmap diet, you know, I don't know. It's going to maybe help you out on the other end of it once you reintroduced and maybe can make some tweaks to your diet. But it's not like kind of diagnostic in and of itself. You've mentioned this is varying a little bit away from the gut health stuff, but not that much. You've mentioned that you have hashes. Are you celiac or do you just do gluten-free for your haches?

I do gluten-free for my ha-shies. I ruled out celiac last year or two years ago. And I think one of the things that has really impressed me about you is, is that you haven't let any of these chronic illnesses that you deal with get in the way of you living your life at all. Like you travel so much. We just do the trips that you guys do after you do them because they're good. I mean, I feel the same way about you. I'm like always taking notes.

But how do you balance getting your pretty specific needs taken care of and still being able to kind of live this very full, beautiful life that you live? I mean, that was kind of my year-long experiment, like with the wellness project, like the subtitle of that book, which was like kind of the point of my mission was like to figure out how to live your life. So how to heal your body without giving up your life. Because I really do think, and this goes for SIBO as well, like stress, anxiety, all these things are incredibly corrosive to health. I think they're way more damaging than any ingredient that maybe your immune system is reacting to. And with regard specifically to SIBO, there's plenty of evidence that stress specifically lowers stomach acid, specifically messes with your gut motility.

Like, it is, again, probably not the one thing that's going to be the triggering event, but it is certainly like a huge ingredient for what's like adding to the risk factor sheet. So, yeah, for me, I kind of feel like that whole year was like a big old experience. experiment to figure out how I could set myself up for success in certain ways in my life in order to allow for more flexibility when I'm kind of outside the circumstances that I have the most control. So mostly outside of the home. And that to me like extends to vacations. I mean, most people are just tend to be less stressed out on vacation and, you know, having, I don't know, just like there's there are a lot of things that you don't think about that are being added to like

the pro column to allow you to, you know, eat some things that maybe you wouldn't at home and, you know, not exercise and basically just like stray outside of your routines. So basically it's like if you create a system that works as optimally as possible in the times when you do have the control, you can be a little bit freer in the times that you don't have control because that system is shiny and happy. I think so. But it's also, it's like, again, everything in life is cumulative. like a lot of stuff like I hate the term like our toxic burden, but for autoimmune diseases

and for SIBO like an inflammatory based condition, it's definitely relevant. So for me it was a lot of like kind of detoxing quote unquote my life in various ways that again like if I can, you know, have no personal care products or home cleaning products that have chemicals in them, that's going allow me, you know, a little bit more leeway when I'm outside my house and like come in contact with chemicals. Like, you know, it's just, it all adds up. So I'm not going to stress about the things that I can't control. I'm going to just enjoy my life. But I think those kind of one time changes where you just never have to think about them again, but just like kind of set you up a little bit more for success long term are great. So can you talk me through some of those.

I love like, I know you're going to say water filter. So talk, yeah, talk us through some. They're my favorite ones too because it's so much, like, yes, we should work out very often and meditate and stuff like that. But like swapping your personal care products is just you do it once and then they're done. Yeah. And you just never have to think about it again. I mean, I think about it because I'm now like so sensitive to synthetic fragrance that like

if I use a hotel shampoo, it's like, it's like an intense experience for me. I still do it. like whatever. Also, I feel like my hair just looks like shit when I use the hotel shampoo. I don't know. Yeah. But water filter, I think, is a big one for many reasons, but specifically for Hashimoto's people, in terms of the chlorine and the fluoride. Not all waterfills will take the fluoride out, but even just getting the chlorine out would be, you know, a huge boon to your system. It's also a huge boon to your overall gut health too because, hello, like chlorine in pools is designed to kill algae. Well, that's what in, no, in the water supply, too, chlorine is literally in there so we don't get, like, cholera to, like, kill the bacteria, which is great. I'm all about not getting cholera.

And it kills other things inside you, too. And it would completely make sense that it would kill the bacteria in your body. It feels, it actually feels like a nice system to me. I just think it should be more normalized that they're going to add all this shit to it so that you don't get cholera in the water system. And then every house should have a thing to take that stuff out. So you're just drinking, like, clean and pure. water. I know. Well, and it's like a whole issue of infrastructure too because like there's hello Flint, Michigan. There's a lot of lead. That's just unfortunately like a result of just aging infrastructure that would cost probably it would probably cost less to like send every family a water filter than to fix. Of course, that water is also like being used on all the food we eat and like on the animals. Like I mean, it's just a mess. But if you can, there are plenty of affordable options for water filters.

I would say that I would invest in one that's like in the $100 range that you only have to change the filter once a year because the pitcher filters for the most part, which are like kind of the under $100 price range, you have to change the filter like every two months. And that ends up being more expensive in the long term than actually just getting the more expensive filter. And you're just not going to remember to replace them every two months. I would also say like don't be intimidated. We have an under-sync one that we actually literally just install in every Airbnb that we go to.

And we have a shower filter we just install. And it takes under 10 minutes to literally do both of them. So I'd say also like don't be intimidated by the ones that look a little more complicated. Because usually they're much simpler than they look. The shower ones are easy. The shower ones are super easy. And do it for vanity if not for your health. Like your skin and your hair look so much better when you use a shower filter than when you don't.

Yeah, and the chlorine is, you know, killing the delicate microbiome on your skin as well. Which we're just now learning, like, how important that is. So important. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So what are other sort of like one-time easy swaps that you recommend? Well, the personal care products for sure, I think that's huge. But anything that can just like, quote unquote, limit your toxic burden in that way. I think, and this is maybe more optional, but I think setting your bedroom up is like the best thing that you can do.

it's very expensive, but making sure you have a good quality mattress that's not like off gassing. If you want to go crazy, you can get an air filter for your bedroom and just run it at night. Again, that's kind of, there's nowhere else in your home where you're spending like uninterrupted eight hours, just like breathing in whatever. Well, that's why I think too, like I'm not going to buy organic clothes. I mean, if I was rich, I would buy, you know, all organic clothes, but I'm just not. then you'd be attracted to really expensive, non-organic clothes. Yeah, probably would be.

But I can sleep on organic sheets and I'm spending literally as much time in the sheets every night as I am in my clothes. So I feel like it's a really nice compromise. It's a really good place to put your money that, like, for some reason, people don't think to because like you're unconscious there. So like, what do you care? But no, it matters. So I know you've tried like a zillion other.

These might not be like one-time solutions, but you've tried pretty much every wellness thing in existence, like from. Lemon water to your guys' very intense home sauna bag. What are like maybe three wellness things that you think are really worth it and three that you think are totally a waste of money? Well, I was going to say I've rejected a lot. Like I've not tried a lot of things. I've like come across a lot of things.

But I'm actually like pretty ungadgety because I felt like that was kind of where a lot of the to do list skewed. when I first started, like, getting into holistic health. And, like, again, where I was like, I have to spend money in all of these things. Like, no. So the sauna blanket is a luxury and it's something that we enjoy. But that is probably the only thing in my home. That's like a weird wellness thing. Do you think that it's worth it?

Like, would you put that on top three things if people wanted to sort of wellness up their life? Because it can be things you buy or it can be like practices. Like meditation could be on the list or not. Celery juice could be on the list or not. So I would put the sauna in a larger bucket of like, I put it in with bath and just like anything that will make you sweat. Yeah. I think sweating is just like a completely underappreciated part of detox.

Do you think you should sweat every day and does my like gross workouts that I do where I get all red face and yeah, that counts. That counts. Okay. Absolutely counts. I don't know. I just have not had a system for a long time that can tolerate like intense cardio. Like my hormones just do not like that.

And like, I don't know. My like muscular system just doesn't like that at this point. So that's actually why I really like the sauna because it like, it fills in the gap there for something that I'm just not able to do as much I like. I used to be a really hardcore, like sporty person. And so I do really miss like kind of intense sweating. And I like being hot. But you know what? Taking a hot bath, like you do get sweaty in the bath.

Like it can do the exact same thing. I'm like, it's so hot. And then it gets so cold so quickly. And I'm just like, I don't know what I'm doing here. Yeah. Okay. So the cheap option is just invest. Well, a lot of people live in apartments.

I certainly did for a long time that did not have an ideal bath set up. So, yeah. My sister got, wait, this is a hot tip. My sister ordered online a bath that you can put in your shower. So it's like a, it's the weirdest looking. thing I've ever done, but she does it now and she has a stand-up shower in her, you know, little tiny apartment and you, it has like a seat in it. How do you get into it? I don't know. I should ask her to if she films the part where she's in it, but I've never seen

the process, but you fill it up from your shower head and it stands in your shower and then you somehow get into it. So if you do have a shower, perhaps you can buy one of these bathtubs, maybe look it up on the internet. They exist. I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued. I love my baths. Okay. So we would put sweating on three things that are worth that. I mean, I still think, though, that's not a necessity. Like, my things are all going to be, like, really common sense, like, dumb things.

I think that oral hygiene is extremely underrated. And this past year, it was kind of like my theme. There's always something that goes wrong with me every year. And this year it was all teeth related. But I really, like, did a bunch of research with SIBO, you know, with, like, or mouth bacteria and the connection to various other ailments in the body and also like kind of the reciprocal relationship to the gut microbiome. And it's fascinating. And I think that not enough people, it's such a basic thing. Like these common sense habits of just like, you know,

drinking good water and like brushing your teeth twice a day and flossing. Do you think is there like things people are doing wrong with their oral hygiene that are messing with their oral hygiene? I think people just don't pay enough attention to it. I do think that, I mean, there are two camps in terms of the fluoride, no fluoride toothpaste. But I think if you can buy a toothpaste that doesn't have junk in it, even if it does have fluoride, like if it just doesn't have like SLS in it and some of these other additives, that's great. There are some incredible brands now that like remineralize the teeth. There are various mouthwashes that are made from different herbal blends.

that, again, can kind of like are naturally antimicrobial. Yeah, you have a blog post that I use as a reference for, like, there's like that mouthwash, the biocide one or whatever you have. Yeah, dental siden. I love that. Dental siden. Yeah. So if we search Phoebe Lipine, like.

I'll send it to you for the show notes. Okay. I'll put it in the show notes. Excellent. Giving me homework for later. Yes. Okay. Well, I think my sauna blanket is worth it to answer your question.

I love it. And I do think that even though it is a big ticket item, if you're someone who likes like in-person services like that, like going to Infrared Sanas in person, which is very much more of a New York, L.A., big city thing. But again, if you don't live in one of these places and want to get into it, another reason to get it. But it does pay for itself over time. We've had ours now for like a year and a half. And I swear like my husband and I each use it once or twice a week. So I don't know. I feel like that's pretty well amortized. over the course of its lifetime. Okay. A water filter for sure. In terms of practices, I mean, I of course would say meditation. I actually think hypnotherapy is like the underrated cousin of meditation. It like requires, again, more investment because you would want to work with someone.

But that's been something that's been really positive for me. I think there been a lot of studies about hypnotherapy and IBS particularly? Really? Yes, it is just as effective as the low Fodmap diet for limiting IBS symptoms. Yes. And I think it's because not, it's a really fine line because so many women, as you said before, get told that like their problems are all in their head. But at the same time, like stress and anxiety really do cause a lot of problems. It is a fine line. And the mind is so powerful. So kind of what I've discovered in hypnotherapy is like it is not important at all. for you to believe any of the things you're telling yourself or like any of the quote unquote trances that you're being put in. Like just hearing the language and the imagery and being forced to go there like is doing so much on a subconscious level that like it's just like the work is being done for you. And eventually like it is like medicine going to take hold. That's interesting. I do have a whole episode on hypnosis with Grace Smith. If anybody's

interested in exploring hypnosis more. I used it for my. if you're flying and I found it really, really helpful. And you can do it online virtually, all of that. And usually if you work with a practitioner, they'll give you a recording so you can listen to them later and kind of get more bang for your book. Okay. I feel like that was three. What's three things that you think are super overhyped in the wellness world? Oh, my God. So many things. I mean, like, every like bespoke like food. Like, I'm okay, kombucha. I'm sorry. Oh, no. I know. I think everybody just likes it because they Exactly. It tastes like healthy soda. Yeah, that's totally fine. Drink it, but it's not like that much healthier for you. It's healthier for you than soda. Of course it's healthier than soda. But it's very acidic. And again, like, because it's bubbly, I think for IBS folks, it's just like not the best choice. And you're just like not actually doing that much for like your gut microbiome with it. Like you're not. So that, well, that's why people drink it. They're like, oh, it's fermented. It's good bacteria. And you don't think those good bacteria are like, like,

colonizing anything or making any positive changes? No. I would actually, let's expand the category to probiotics as a whole. Yeah. I mean, there's obviously efficacies, but kind of the layman's probiotic is not going to do that much. Prebiotics, however, are amazing. Prebiotics are the key.

Why? Can you explain why? Yeah. So kind of the analogy that I like for them is probiotics are like buying expensive. fertilizer and then if you're just, if you're not doing other things in your diet, it's like not watering the plants. So you can buy, you can douse your garden with as much expensive fertilizer as you want. But like if you're not going to water their plants, it just doesn't matter. So I would say step one is always just to water the plants and see how you do. And the prebiotics

are kind of, again, like the foods that your gut bacteria thrive on. It's what's honestly removed in the low five-map diet for the most part, like inulin would be amongst them. But there are different types of prebiotics that you can add to your diet that may not have, that may be better tolerated than just pro bi biotics in foods for the IBS set. One of them is called partially hydroly hydrolyzed war gum. It's actually been studied a lot in conjunction with SIBO both as like a treatment and as you know something to kind of catalyze more like a healing of the kind of general imbalance afterwards. So that's kind of what I add to my diet often.

But yeah, I think in general just focusing more on prebiotics and that can mean any vegetables that you tolerate, just like eat vegetables and don't worry so much about like the expensive probiotic pills. Okay, more overrated? Oh my gosh. I mean, there are just so many crazy things that we do in this wellness. What do you think of celery juice? Oh, my God.

Sorry. Yes. Top of the list. Top of the list. I always get, whenever I come out again, celery juice, I get a lot of hate and a lot of people who just share their anecdote about how celery juice is, you know, it's cured their skin completely. It's cured their gut.

They feel so good. And I'm like, have you tried drinking? the same amount of water. Yeah. Well, honestly, I mean, there's an analogy to the kombucha. Like, of course if you're switching your Diet Coke for kombucha, like, it's better for you. Of course, if you're like switching your egg McMuffin for celery juice in the morning, that's a huge step in the right direction.

But it's not the celery. It's like the fact that you're putting something green in your body first thing in the morning. And it'd be much better to just like eat some celery or like eat any vegetables. So you have the fiber. Yeah. So you don't like the idea of like flooding your body with nutrients that people talk about with juicing. Yeah, I would put juicing kind of in its own bucket as well, which is, again, not to say that if you have a juice habit and it makes you feel good and it's loving on you, that's great. I just like could never get behind it as a habit because of how much it costs,

like just to like fill the fridge with that much, that many vegetables. Like I was like, I much rather save all this space for like things I need to cook. Like I don't understand how people juice every day and still have room in their fridge to make dinner. I also don't understand like it just feels like if you can, I mean, you know and everybody knows that I'm like a huge smoothie fan and I'm just like if you can keep the fiber

in, why would you not? Like it makes you full. It's good for your gut. Like why are we getting rid of one of the healthiest parts of the food? Yeah. I'm a big like green. like green soup. You're a green smoothie.

I'm a green soup girl. There's this like green detox soup in the book that is just like my like personal like health elixir. I just, yeah, again, it's like a warming food. It's broken down all the vegetables for you. But I of course am much more of a smoothie girl over a juice girl too. But my higher. What about like a soup smoothie juice? Because it's cooked, right?

And what about bone broth or collagen? like things that kind of are designed or that are talked about as sealing leaky guy. Yeah, I don't think they're overrated. I think it's always best to kind of cook slash eat your nutrients. So the collagen powders, like, I don't know, where I fall in them. I do think, though, like, you know, some people who have a damage system, like, the more you can add the better, I think L-glutamine is way more effective than collagen overall, like in terms of supplementing in powder form.

and that you can just add to like your smoothie or soup or, I mean, don't add to your juice. But you can. And that would be to kind of help seal a leaky gut one. Yeah, that's another leaky gut powerhouse. You can also, the best source of al-glutamine is cabbage. So if there's one thing you're going to juice, maybe it's cabbage into that. Yeah, because I don't know any other way I'd want to consume it. But you can buy now like kind of kraut brine.

So if there's any probiotic food, if there's. The probiotic foods that I stand behind are actually yogurt. There's actually a lot of good evidence behind, like, specifically, like, full-fat dairy yogurt. And then, like, sourcrow or anything involving cabbage, because, again, you're going to get the benefits of the el-glutamine and you have, like, a built-in probiotic in in addition to the fermented aspects. Yeah, I do.

I actually like to keep some trout in my fridge and I just have, like, a few spoonfuls a day. Sometimes when I'm like craving sugar, I find that it's really something about the taste of it. I don't know. It literally stops sugar cravings and it's tracks. That's the L-glutamine. I think L-glutamine has, yeah, it's like if you're hungry or like have some sort of craving like L-glutamine can actually help. Don't quote me on that because I learned that many years ago. So I have to fact check it. But I think that's a hack. Interesting. I like that as a hack. You're listening to the Healthier Together podcast.

When it comes to wellness, you're going to get the best results by focusing on the big needle movers. A lot of us spend a lot of time trying to optimize that last 1%, which creates a ton of stress and it actually doesn't help our health that much. At the top of the needle mover list, sleep. And one of the best ways to optimize your sleep is to optimize your mattress, which is why I love avocado green mattress so much. First of all, this mattress is so comfortable. I have the one with the pillow top, which is medium firm, and it's just a dream.

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Avocadogreenmatress.com. That is avocadogreenmatress.com. No code needed. I feel like everyone pretty much knows by now that I don't drink caffeine and one of the top questions I get is what do you do instead for energy? People are very, very concerned. And while I have a few things on my list, getting enough sleep in the first place, meditating, keeping my blood sugar stable, one of my top Tricks is the Organify Red Juice. It has absolutely no caffeine, only two grams of sugar, and it does wonders as a jitter-free pick-me-up. I can hear you asking, how, Liz, how does it work? Well, I will tell you. There are 13, 100% organic superfoods in the blend, including beets, freeze-dried berries, that's where the small amount of sugar comes from, cortisps, Siberian ginseng, rishi mushroom,

and rhodiola. All of these plants are powerful in their own right. Corticeps is a type of mushroom, That's incredibly energizing. Siberian ginsing is an adaptogen found in Asia that's been found to increase mental alertness and acuity. Rishi is another mushroom that gives you this very clear, anxiety-free boost. And rodeola promotes physical endurance and increases mental clarity and focus. But together, they give you the most amazing feeling, kind of like you get post-meditation, grounded and calm, but alert, focused, and ready for action.

I'll often do a scoop in the morning when most people would reach for their cup of Joe, and then I also love it when that 2.30 slump rolls around, it perks me right back up so I can get back to being productive and enjoying every possible moment of my day. And did I mention that it tastes so good? It's gently sweet and tastes like actual berries at their best, which makes sense, since Organify only uses the highest quality freeze-dried ingredients for optimal benefits. Organify has a ton of other products. Zach loves their green juice, which has macha, maringa, spirulina, chlorella, wheatgrass, and more. And they have a hormone balancing hot chocolate, which like, hello, sign me up. I've looked into their sourcing practices and I am confident when saying that

the ingredients and their blends are among the highest quality around. Of course, I have a code for you. You can go to www.organtify.com slash healthier together and use the code healthier together for 20% off your order. Again, that's Organify.com. O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I-I-N-I-N-I-N-O-W-E-E-A-N-I-A-S-E-E-A-R-E-E-N-E-E-N-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-E-R-E-C-E-E-R-E-T-E-E-E-R-E-E-T-E-E-E-R-E-E-T-E-E-E-E-R-E-E-E-T-E-E-E-R-E-E-E-R-E-E-E-R-E-E-E-E- that he's done really well as a partner of somebody dealing with all of this? Yeah, it was funny. I was like really thinking back. I had a long drive earlier today. And I was thinking back to kind of the year that we met and like the state of things.

It's definitely like a narrative theme in my book, The Wellness Project, because I certainly struggled with Charlie at the beginning. I mostly, it was my own struggles, like trying to be the cool girl and like not feeling like I could authentically like be my my healing journey self in front of him because he is like a tried and true hedonist. But yeah, it's it's something that I don't think anyone's going to like heal on their own or make any habit changes on their own until they're ready. Like it took many, many years of me like kind of modeling certain behaviors for Charlie to to want to adopt any of them himself. But of course, you know, my eating habits have like a halo effect at home. I find the one who's primarily cooking.

But it was really tough in the beginning, like in my, in my 20s. Once we got into the 30s, I still started to change. He got more on board and quarantine. Oh, my God. He's lost so much weight. He's like withering away. He's riding his station. He bought one of those like, this would be one of his like least underrated, like,

best purchases. And I have to second it just because he loves it so much, but he got one of those like adapters for your physical bikes. You can make it into a stationary bike at home. Oh, that's cool. And it's like great for New York City apartments because you can just break it down and like put it under the bed. So there's no like ugly peloton in your living room. So was there like tools you gave him or ways that you were able? People always ask me for Zach. like how do I help him help me with my anxiety? And I never know what to tell them. And I'm curious if you would, if you've done anything with Charlie that would be helpful

for other people in the same situation. Oh my gosh. I actually think this is a hard one to translate to mental health. But getting him more involved in my doctor's appointments, I think was important. And I also think that's a really great hack for anyone dealing with chronic illness and just like really overwhelming medical issues. It's like, it's really helpful to have a buddy in the room with you. I actually dragged my best friend with me to the doctor early on before Charlie and I started

dating is actually ironically the friend that introduced us. But, you know, just getting a partner in the room, someone who's just like, I don't know, less, not that your partner is going to be any less emotionally invested, but these are emotional conversations a lot of the time. I felt like any time I was like receiving health news was not like triggering, but it was just like, I don't know, I was in a heightened emotional state. And it's helpful to just have someone who's a little bit more detached there to ask follow-up questions on your behalf. Charlie in particular is like a terrible question asker. But just like having them there, you know, to to hear things firsthand without my regurgitating them. I think. Kind of like so like it makes it more real. I was going to say it solidifies the reality of the situation for him. For him.

Interesting. You guys have such a like I think I think you have a lot of relationship tools even outside of the chronic illness category. Like you've you guys have said stuff that you've done in your relationship that like Zach and I have stolen. And I feel like you did like no idea. They're like um, oh one thing is you guys have like a silly name for each other and when stuff like It's like a designated name that makes you, yeah, that makes you laugh.

So if you're in the middle of an argument, it's escalating, you can kind of say this silly thing. And I feel like, do you either, I don't know if you've like done something that you've paid for that was a couple's workshop or you just have like an older couple who's like geniuses that help you in your relationship. Or is it both? Yeah, we've paid them. No, we have mentors who are this couple, sadly, the husband who is a very close friend of ours and someone that Charlie worked with. in a career capacity passed away. But him and his wife, they're both coaches, and they both do a lot of like couples work, not as like relationship therapists or anything like that, but just in helping you kind of come up with your dream future. And so we did like kind of a one day workshop

with my friend Debbie on this. And a lot of their tools that they've learned in their relationship is like things that have trickled down to their clients like us. And just like through friendship is just like trickle down. We only like worked with Debbie officially that one time. But she was the one who had us come up with some of those safe words. So it's actually, it was more specific than that. Like we were kind of like identified like the circumstances that were like very triggering to each of us. And like one of them, I'll give an example because it's really dumb. But like Charlie is a, he's not a bad driver, but he is a scary driver to me. A lot of the time he's like definitely a why am I blanking the word when you get too close to the car in front of you

tailgator um tailgator yeah yeah um and when he gets too close to the car in front of him i get very nervous and um but then like you know it's so annoying to have the person the driver's to be like ha because then it like makes you freak out so we came up with a code word around that two two beep beep beep so now i said two to beep beep and like you know it's like a friendly to be like, slow the fuck down. Like, this is impacting me, even if it's not impacting you. And I think that's what a lot about a couple stuff is about is being like, even if this doesn't feel like a big deal to you, you need to recognize that it's a big deal to me.

Are there any other like tools that you could? Yeah, we have a couple of new ones that I'm excited about. So actually in the vein of like, this is actually like a CBO tip, but I've gotten really interested, again, in some of the everyday things that you're like, why do you do this? And saying grace before a meal is one of them, I'm not a religious person at all. But if you think about it, it is like the perfect way that people ground themselves and like drop into, you know, rest and digest mode and just like kind of, I think transitions are really important. I guess is what I'm trying to say. And it's a really good transition to get your body physically ready for a meal. And I think so often, You know, we're obviously like so often not eating mindfully, eating in front of the television, in front of our laptops. But I think at the very least, if we can build in that transition, it's really important. So we just do our gratitude before dinner. So we'll each say three things that we were grateful for that day. And then, yeah, it's like, then we're not just like shoveling

food in our mouth as soon as we get our plate. I love that. I also love that like there's the ideas around habits that like habit stacking makes your habits more successful. And I've been trying to build in a gratitude practice forever. And it's usually me like as Zach is falling asleep being like, hey, tell me three things you're grateful for and him being like I'm asleep go away. And I love the idea of stacking it with the obvious habit that we all have, which is eating food. Yeah. And it's also. And then it has the. Yeah, no, we definitely are guilty, especially this past year of like eating in front of the television. Like we eat in front of the television every night. for the most part. But at least we have this now like five minute catch up right before we do that.

And it's a nice way to like also just be forced to kind of fill in each other on the day because you inevitably like, you know, we'll mention something. And then, you know, if he's like, oh, I'm grateful because like I sold ex painting today. I'm like, oh, tell me about, you know, like, oh, I didn't realize that. Like, how's the show going? Like, blah, blah, blah. And sometimes just as couples, especially when there's like no built in like events anymore. Like you just forget to like even fill each other in on the simplest stuff. I mean, you forget about the simplest stuff that's happened to you in a day because it all blends together at this point. Well, and you like kind of loosely mentioned rest and digest, but I do think as you talked about

earlier, the way that you eat your food, I think we talk about it very casually, but the way that you eat your food has huge health repercussions as much as you said earlier as what you're eating. So I think dropping into that state is so important. And there are certain tools. I don't know if there's like a cheaper one. I do know there's one company that makes like kind of expensive ones, but there are certain heart rate monitors that can literally tell you if you're in sympathetic or parasympathetic mode. And there are doctors that for CBO people recommend that, especially in the process of reintroducing foods because I think that a lot of people have symptoms when they reintroduced that are like self-fulfilling prophecies that are based on like emotional reactions and not

actually like a digestive reality. That's so interesting. Okay. Give me more a couple tips. Okay. Well, so another thing that we do since, I don't know, we're like still in the beginning part of the year. That's from my friend Debbie as well as every, oh, actually, we have a lot of like New Year's type tradition. So we do predictions every year instead of resolutions because they're way more fun. So we'll just like come up with like 12 questions. And, It could be anything from like politics to like Oscars or Super Bowl winners to like how many places will we visit. Like how many like where we will always we always guess where we'll be new years of the following year. Oh my God.

And like things like that. I mean back at certain points in life, we'd be like who's going to get engaged? Like who's going to have a baby? But now it's just like too much. For me it's literally this year is like who's going to have a baby? Literally everybody. Yeah. It's like you can't even.

We just all win. be like, yes, all of them. But that's really fun. And then we started a few years ago doing this exercise that Debbie taught us called Timeline. And we, this year was really hard to do it. But you basically just go through your like Google calendar and write down like all of the little things that were fun. Like it could be like, you know, a coffee date with a friend. Like even like something as small as that. But you write down like all of the kind of like Sparkjoy. moments and then you go back through and you kind of like star the ones that like really stood out. And then it's, I think, really indicative of like what you actually want more of the following year.

So you can make some like more profound goals. I'm not into resolutions at all, but like goals. Like, oh, like I had the most fun when we went to the theater that night. This was actually the past year of 2019. I was like, oh, more movies, more theater. This is going to be my year of concerts. Like I got into last. I have music last year. And I was like, I'm going to go to, I went to Maggie Rogers in November and like a Leon concert. And I was like, next year I'm going to finally splurge some money on concert tickets. Yep, us too.

I literally had never bought more tickets in my life to anything than I did this spring. So, such a bummer. But I was like, why am I not investing my money here? Like more than restaurants, like this is what I want to spend my money on. It's so fun. It's like such a fun experience. Totally. For sure.

So yeah. That's what timeline taught me in 2019. And then in 2020. It was like wild because I literally think there was more things on the calendar in January than they were for the entire year combined. So did you learn stuff during the timeline in 2020? Yes. I was like, I cannot believe I lived my life the way I did in January. I was like, I would drop dead if I had to do this many things in a week.

So that was like, you know, eye opening. And then we kind of had to go to like our camera roll for the like. like for the seven months in between because we had like literally nothing on the calendar. And we were like, we had like outdoor cocktails with like X, Y and Z. And like it's not on the calendar anywhere. Like we have to go through the camera. But still actually, you know, I, I say I'm better at this than Charlie is. I think most women are.

But like I had like scheduled Zoom dates for a while with like small groups. And it was still, I think, indicative in all timelines, I think. think are indicative of this, like, who you actually spent time with that year. And, like, time can be virtual time too. But also just, like, by way of the pandemic, I was like, oh, my God, like, we saw, like, our neighbors probably more than we saw, like, anyone else. Like, you know, it's kind like, it was like circumstance that really brought people together. And then it was just like, who did I actually make time to, like, keep in touch with? Right. I think that's so fast. And I don't think it means that the people you don't make time to keep in touch with aren't like your friends or

anything, but I do think it's interesting to figure out what sort of role different friendships play in your life. And I was able to learn a lot about my friendships in that way over the past year. But you also forget, too, because it's like, I don't know, we all have our histories, like, and our webs of friends that, like, we just are tied to over time. Of course, some of us at this age have, like, gotten rid of the toxic ones over time. But, like, you know, we're still holding, holding on to, you know, people who we have histories with. And I think when you like really spell it out for yourself in terms of like who you're actually investing time with or who actually like that you're investing time with sparks joy, it can be really clarifying. And then it's like you don't

have to feel guilty. You're like, oh, no, like this person's my best friend now. And like I'm just like going to go all in. Oh, I think that the way you're spending time to a huge realization Zach and I've had are like the friends that we need to like go out and get drunk with to have fun versus is the friends that we just have fun on a Zoom date or things like that. And that's been really revelatory for us. Okay. I want to fit this in in our remaining time. I have like a zillion more things talk to you about, which maybe I should have you back.

I will also say we've been playing poker this year, just the two of us. And it's really fun. Can you play poker with two people? Absolutely. I didn't even know how to play poker before this year. I learned in quarantine. Did Charlie teach you? Because you might not trust those rules.

Like he might be. We had to do some print. Like I had to have like a. printout for the first little bit. I know now. But, um, house is good. Yeah, that's right. But like doing activities together, that's huge for me and Zach too. It's like it's so much easier to just watch TV at night, but on the nights that we like break out a game or do anything out of the ordinary, it feels so much, so much better. Okay. This is the thing, the last thing I kind of want to talk to you about before I get into my questions that I ask everybody is something

that I'm fascinated about about you. I think you'll probably be able to guess what it is. It's the thing I was most jealous of you about until I talked to you about it, which is your childhood and who you were raised by. Because I was raised by two very nice psychologists. And it was fine. But then when I started to go off and try to have a creative career, I literally had no roadmap for it. And I didn't have anybody in my life who knew how to do it.

And my parents were supportive. But it's always in that way of like, oh, tell me how that way. works. And you were not raised like that. So can you tell me a little bit about maybe like who your parents are and how you were raised? Yeah. So they're both creatives, like kind of prolific creatives, I would say. My mom is a screenwriter. That's like how she made like her money. Growing up, but she also has made a bunch of documentaries and directed movies. Like she's just and written novels. Like she's just like a renaissance woman of creativity. And my dad is probably. primarily a theater director, but also is a playwright and has written movies and directed movies, too.

Can you drop like a few names just because they are like impressive? Yeah, he's done a lot of musicals that one might have heard of. Into the woods probably be the most well known in like, you know, you probably did that at your high school kind of way. And yeah, Sunday in the park with George. Yeah, I think those are the two most iconic. So you would like describe like that when you were a kid, you'd like come downstairs and your parents would have all of these like really known, famous creative people like over at a dinner party or also like weird subjects of your mom's documentaries over at a dinner party or stuff like that. And that feels more notably.

That feels so cool. And especially picturing it in like a New York apartment, which I don't know if you knew this, but I like pretend. I was from New York in high school and like I just dreamed of this. I reverse manifested a New York life for myself. And it just felt like the coolest thing ever. And the way that you talk about it doesn't, I'd love to hear like basically what you think was good about being raised with those sort of creative. What's the word?

Like examples and what was less good that people like me who idolize it from the outside might not see. Yeah. So as you said, obviously a pro would be that I grew up with, you know, the creative example laid out. But both in like, I'd say like there were some cons to that as well. Looking back, I know that I was incredibly privileged. And I know that probably for my entire life, both my parents were already successful in their fields and like financially successful to a certain extent. But certainly. growing up in New York really jaded me at the time to that because I had some just extraordinarily wealthy friends first and foremost. But then second, I think my parents were always anxious about money because it's still the freelance life. So, you know, I'd say probably, you know, like growing up, there were a few shows that my dad had that were successful in that he probably

got like some residuals from them annually. But other than that, there's just still as like a creative and a freelancer, like no stable income like per se. Like my mom was the main breadwinner as a screenwriter for many years. But once she, as she reminded me also growing up, like once she became a woman of a certain age, like those jobs just dried up. Even for screenwriting. I mean, I assume for like on screen stuff, but for. I don't think that's true for everyone. But. that was very much her experience. That's really interesting. And I think that's probably a bit different now.

But yeah, you know, I think I think her, whether or not that's why her job is dried up, I don't know. My mom's incredibly talented. So I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to give her work. But, you know, I think probably earlier on there was only so many slots for women. Now there's like, you know, more of a. quota to like ensure that the voices are a bit more diverse. But yeah, I guess she just saw like being an aging woman as a strike against her. So, you know, luckily kind of my dad was able to pick up the slack as the years went on because in the theater, well, and in movies to a certain extent too, but in the

theater, like the residuals are really interesting. And I don't have like numerical associations in my head, but like anytime a high school puts on a production of a show, they have to pay for it. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. They have to. I don't know the terminology, but like, they have to buy the scripts. Like, and like, and like, buy the rights. And not just from like the New York street corner in Soho.

No. No, it's like they have to buy it from like these companies that like sell the rights to local productions. Interesting. Okay. So even though like with that where, even very successful creatives were having this sort of financial insecurity or I guess not even it's insecurity but it's also I think probably just like this financial the negative psychology

elements which I know I struggle with in the freelance career of being like even if I feel flush not knowing if I'll feel flush the next year messes with my brain and even having that demonstrated for you your whole life you're like that sounds good I'm going to do that yeah well I left college and got a corporate job, which was like, this is the con side, is that my parents were just like, what is that? They did not understand it all. I like went to, I had lots of years of liberal arts education. And when senior year came around, this was 2007.

So it was like right before things got really hard for people. But, you know, I was like, okay, like, what do I do? like any creative job I want to get, like, working for like a studio, a film studio in LA, like, those jobs don't recruit on campus and like those jobs hire and like you start on Monday. So I was like, well, I think I should just like apply to a job like, you know, to have that experience. So I literally applied to like the one marketing job like that recruited at the career fair. Like it was like the one job that wasn't finance or consulting.

And it was a marketing position at L'Oreal. And of course, it was like the job that all the ambitious girls wanted. And because I gave zero fucks, of course, I got the job. Which I still marvel at because like so many of my friends who are like, titans of industry now didn't get the job. And I did. So you got that job and your parents were like, literally, what are you doing with your life? Also, I, like, they weren't, they didn't prepare me for

that process. So I remember, I had my final round interview in New York and I had to, like, take the Acela down. And my friend who went on to become a titan of industry and was applying to all the finance jobs, she was like, what are you wearing? And I was like, um, I was thinking like my black, like skinny jeans and like this sweater. And she was like, um, a what? She's like, no, like, you have to wear a suit. I was like, what? She was like, you have to wear a suit, Phoebe. I was like, I don't have a suit. So literally, this is the night before I, like, called my mom. And because it's New York, luckily, she was able to, like, get to a retail store at like 8 p.m. And she just bought me, like, a suit off the rack. And luckily it fit. And I wore it the next day with the tags on and then returned it. But like, you know,

my parents were not at all helpful for that sort of thing. And once I got the job, they were like, what, yeah, they, they didn't really understand. And then this was, you know, a conversation I remember really well. One of the times that they did have all their like cool creative friends over for dinner, they asked me like how my, my corporate job was going. And this woman said to me, she goes, well, like, what do your parents think of this? And I was like, I don't know. They like seem pretty supportive. Like they seem like happy that I'm, you know, doing something different. And she said, well, that couldn't possibly be true. And so that, you know, has stuck with me. But then I left the corporate job, probably because that stuck with me. Did you feel like they were like more proud of you? I actually talked to your dad a lot at your book launch for wellness project because I love dads. If there's a dad in the room, I'm like, come hang out with me.

Like, do you think he was more proud when you were finding success in that sort of creative way because that's a realm they understood? Yes, absolutely. And like they're creative. So there's a certain level of narcissism that play as well. Like, you know, going into the family business is always like. I'm curious as somebody who has had such a strong model. And also, you know, like I know a lot of your friends are very successful in creative

industries. And now you yourself are very successful in a creative industry. You're a thrice author now, right? Thrice. Which is cool. And is there, and I think a lot of people. people really glamorize the creative arts. And I know that I did before I was in it, which is why I was like, oh, the way you were raised is so cool. Because I think I found out about that even before

I had found success in a creative job more so. And is there something that you would say to people who wanted to work in the creative industry, like things that you've learned from yourself, from your friends, from your parents that maybe people might not know from the outside? Oh, gosh. I mean, it's a, it's really hard work. Like you have to sit down and like even when you're not feeling creative, like commit to like going to work every single day. And then there's always going to be like really unglomerous sides to it. Like there's, I think book writing has way more unglamorous sides than what my parents do. Like they are not and not by way of like age or like, I don't know, the time that they enter the industry. But just like even today, the price.

projects that they do, like, they are not responsible for marketing and PR at all. For books, like, that entirely rests on the author's shoulder. My dad's actually coming out with a book, his first book in May. And it's like the process has like boggled his mind. And like he said to me, he's like, I have so much more appreciation for what you do. Has he come to you for advice on like how to get it out there? Not that part. Because you know what? He's lucky. He'll like make a few calls. and I'm sure, like, we'll get like a profile in the New York Times. Meanwhile, I'm like, you know, begging everyone to let me on their podcasts and like feeling like really this is the biggest win right here, right now. Who needs the New York Times?

This is better than the New York Times. No, I think it was more just like the pace of things that he really struggled with. And then also just like not being like your publisher is like not really like. like it's not like collaborative process in a lot of ways. Like he just felt like he was like alone in a room like and he's used to like very collaborative mediums where like you're just like constantly working in a team environment. And I think yeah, he felt it was really lonely. And also that just like he never had the answers he needed. He's like I have no idea when my book's going to come out. Like and what do you think I think what you said about like you have to just sit and do

the creative work is really important too. Like I think a lot of people who don't do it as work assume you can kind of wait for inspiration to strike. And I think there's something really interesting about, no, you have to produce a certain output. And I think for me, for me overcoming that hurdle was realizing that my output wouldn't always meet my own standards. And that was the thing that let me overcome that. But I'm curious if there's what lets you do that.

Like what lets you create creative stuff every day even when you're not inspired? Well, I'll say, like, to go back to, like, the cons of growing up with parents like this, like, I had so many chips on my shoulder. I had so many creative, just like blockages that were self-imposed. Like, I... Wait, why? Like, how so? Oh, I mean, I write books because I didn't want to... I write nonfiction books because I did not want to dabble in any of my parents' mediums.

And they have a lot of mediums between the two of them. That was not easy to do. It was like I had to find my own way. Well, and is that because you were worried your work wouldn't measure up? Was it worried because you thought people would say this is nepotism at work? What was the fear there? The measuring up part, for sure. I worry about nepotism no matter what.

Like, I worry about nepotism with, like, me writing like a sebo book. Like my parents did not help me. You get to write the sebo book because your dad did into the woods. The Into the Woods audience really overlaps with the CBO audience. Anyway, those two things, though, are both things I've had to overcome just in my own work over the years. Meant like in therapy. But I like even in college was until this year, I was like terrified to like do anything that involved dialogue. Like I was just, I don't know.

I was like, it was like too similar. I was just worried I wasn't going to be good at it. And yeah, it was so dumb. Like, it's much easier, honestly, than what we write. I did. And then this year you wrote a screenplay, which is really, it's a really interesting lesson in making something available to your life that you told yourself that wasn't available to you. Is there something that you would like, was there something critical that helped you sort of take that leap or overcome that roadblock?

Yeah. Well, I think just maturity and, you know, getting over my imposter syndrome and my current vocation and just like, I don't know, has a halo effect for other avenues. And just like feeling secure enough in my career that like I'm like, okay, like I really want to do something different now. And each of my books have been really different from one another. Like I think I'm just someone who like needs to mix it up all the time. Like I couldn't just like keep like, I'm not like, I don't like. a garden. I couldn't keep writing the same book every single year. She's brilliant at it. That's like not my back. I need to constantly be challenging myself in some ways, which, you know, leads to a lot of grief.

But maybe more excitement too. Exactly. So I think I finally got like finally reached the point this past year before this book came out, probably because it was like so technical and like science heavy that I was like, I really need to try fiction. And what actually got me to physically like sit down and write the screenplay, though, was like a little online program that just like created accountability. And it really taught me that like it is not about creativity. You just sit down and you write for two hours every single day and you will have a script. And then you can edit it later. Yes. And then it took me six months to sit back down and like do any of the edits. And I was just doing them this past weekend. It literally, yeah, I finished it almost a year ago and have yet to edit it. So yeah, that was hard too. But I'm doing it. Okay, this is my last question about sort of the creative thing. But you've also kind of done

where you had private chefing and you had your core income and then you were pursuing these other sort of more passion projects on the side. And I have a lot of mixed feelings about the notions of side hustles and whether or not I recommend them to people who are pursuing creative careers. I really debate between being like, how. Having a stable source of income is the thing that lets you actually produce the work you want to produce. And on the other side, I worry that we're, I guess, telling everybody that they should almost like work themselves to the point of burnout that you should have your normal job and you should have your side hustle and you should be working on these things at the same time.

So I'm really curious that somebody who has kind of experienced both ends of having your creative career, be your full career and be your side hustle. What are your thoughts on this? I hate the term side hustle. like what does that even mean? Like which parts the side hustle? Like I don't know. And why is it a hustle?

Like why isn't it just like an outlet or a passion or just like a fun project? Why is it a hustle? Anyway, I prefer like in terms of what I was doing with my private chefing and catering, I prefer the Marie Forleo BJ term, which is bridge jobs. That to me like has always spoken to me more as a freelancer. It's like not the idea that. I think what you did was very cool, like, and probably easier to have just like a full-time job that allowed you like a little bit of extra time because you were so good at it to do your own thing on

the side. For me, it was more like I felt like I needed to have so many different jobs so that, you know, if shit hit the fan or, you know, if just my life constantly evolved, that I would always have like one thing to count on. And that has proven to be so helpful for me. And the pandemic is like the ultimate examples. Like I was so lucky that I have all these different sources of income because there were years where private chefing and catering and private teaching were like the majority of my income. And even like as I phased out of private chefing and catering like the private teaching took over that.

And literally at the beginning of 2020, I was like, you know what? I think it's finally time. I'm finally making enough money in these other. in these other buckets that I think I'm just going to like say no to teaching. And I would have had to anyway because, you know, the world changed overnight. And that was just like an income stream that disappeared. And I really feel for my friends who, you know, had just kind of like single stream businesses that just dried up overnight. So for me, it's just like a bet hedging kind of thing. And then also just I just feel like it allows me to evolve a little bit easier, to be more

nimble. It's so interesting. It sounds like stress reducing to not have all of your eggs in one basket, but it also sounds so stressful to like have to manage, you know, your course and your books and like all of the things that. It sounds like a recipe for burnout. Yeah. I mean, I've been burnt out for a long time. But it is like how I haven't figured out another way to make a living. I don't know. I just haven't. Like I have never wanted to go all in on Instagram. I kind of have found myself over the last two years, like being able to go more all in on like my website, like through the ad revenue and through like affiliate stuff to be like a consistent chunk. But, you know, on top of that still I want to have like these other things. So I've got my course and my ebooks and I still had teaching for a while.

and now I kind of do a little bit of virtual teaching. But I don't know. I don't know. It's hard because when you decide to, of course, when you eliminate one of your many odd food jobs, you are literally closing off an income stream. And you have to be confident that like you're going to be able to make that up in the other things you're doing. And some things just have like a threshold. Like with teaching and the private chefing, like I could have made more money. working myself to the bone, but it's like, it's my time. It's not scalable to a certain extent, unless I were to like build some sort of empire. Luckily, like with my website and the course, like it is scalable. But on the flip side of that, it's like I can't really control how many people

are coming to my site a month. I can't really control how many people are signing up for my course. Like I could invest in ads. I could do all these things. But, you know, it's a little bit more, not necessarily correlated to the amount of time I put into it. All right. I have a few questions that I ask everybody. They're quickfire-ish, I like to say, because nothing of this podcast is truly quickfire. But let's start with, is there something that you've purchased recently that's changed

your life or made you healthier? Oh, my God, recently, like in quarantine. I mean, the soda blanket was the quarantine MVP, like that's for sure. Okay. This is a small one. that goes in that category. But I have a wonderful, like, bath tray that can hold a book and a wine glass. And it's like whenever I, like, post pictures from my bath, people are like, where did you get that? It's like a cheapo thing that's like bamboo off of Amazon. But it just makes the whole

bath experience much more luxurious. I love that. Do you feel successful and why or why not? I actually do feel successful in the past year. It's really, I feel like I've really emotionally come into to that feeling. I don't know. Like this book, I just had so much less imposter syndrome going into the book process. Like the wellness project, I legitimately like did not go full steam ahead and like pitching and like putting myself out there before it came out because I was so scared about like what people would think about it. And it probably took until like a year after it came out when I was like,

damn it, like this is a really good book. Like I'm really sad that I didn't. I don't know, that more people didn't read it. Not that it did bad, but like, you know, it just didn't, I don't know. I don't think I, I think my own attitude about it in like the essential period where like momentum is formed definitely had something to do with it. So I don't know. I think it's part of like having this many years under my belt and like really investing in the expertise. I also will say like I really did not feel like a health expert when I wrote the wellness project. Like I was pretty new into that side of the food world. And with Sibo made simple, like for better or worse. Like I just like I've only been doing Sibo stuff for two years.

And in that time though, I've like really built this accidental expertise that like I actually do feel confident saying that I have this strange Zipo expertise. I do think it's the two things about imposter syndrome is one to kind of recognize that like most people have it to some extent, even the people you perceive it's incredibly successful, which kind of you don't need to get rid of it all the way. But I also think to your point, one of the best ways to overcome imposter syndrome is just to learn so much about what you're talking about. Like I think sometimes an imposter syndrome can be a really nice, almost like gut feeling. guiding you towards maybe you don't have enough education in the subject.

I think there's a lot of internet experts these days kind of trying to be experts in fields before they are. And I think if you feel like you have imposter syndrome, one, maybe like give yourself a little bit of breathing room and grace with that. But two, maybe ask yourself, is this something you are an expert in? And should you be giving people advice on that subject? Yeah. I will also say that that is kind of what makes me. feel successful. I kind of always, I've always from an early age, probably because of my parents like prolificness, been like, my goal in life is not to like be any one thing. It's just to like get to a point in my career where I have like the clout and I don't know, the gravitas to be

able to like do whatever I want. So if that's write a novel, right a screenplay, like to have enough clout that like I can get those deals and make it happen. I don't think I'm, I'm there to to some extent. but I do think internally I'm much more there and like believing in myself that I could produce these other things. And I think I now realize that that is so much more important. And like that's actually the true driver of success more so than just like, I don't know, a platform for lack of a better word. I love that. What do you think is the best way to spend 20 minutes every day in terms of living a healthier life? I think probably meditation or doing some sort of active. mindfulness because now for me, hypnotherapy has replaced my meditation.

Have you ever been somewhere in the world where like the people who live here really got it right in terms of living a healthier, happier life? Oh my gosh. Like, I want to choose so many different places. Okay. So I think I'm going to have to choose too. But the first one I would say would be Hedra in Greece, like kind of very much because of like the blue zone.

mentality like, you know, they're like old crusty men like smoking their cigarettes. Like, but there are no cars on the island. So like it's teeny. Everyone has to walk everywhere. It's like fairly hilly. It's small. There's like nowhere to go. You're just like wandering around town. But I think that inherently like everyone's just walking more and like into an old age. But it's also kind of this like posh, very touristy town. So I don't know. I it's not like the blue zones where they're just like hurt in the goats every day. But I still think, like, Mediterranean cuisine, like Greek cuisine in particular is just, like, so pure and beautiful and simple. But I will say, and you're going to like this one, Slovenia is also up there.

You know, the cuisine in and of itself is not like stereotypically, like, healthy food. Like, it's a lot of, like, kind of, like, Hungarian, like, Stettel, for lack of a better word, schedel food. but then like kind of in more like not upscale areas but like more cosmopolitan areas like the food is so local and gorgeous and even like kind of the pubs we went to and like really small towns like they always had just like a fresh trout like from the nearby stream and more so though like the healthy mentality I think is like they're so outdoorsy there like just the the passion for outdoor activity um well the nature is like so beautiful. And I don't know.

Like the people there were just really nice and seemed happy. And I think partially it's because the country is such an interesting war-torn history. There are certain parts of Slovenia that have been four different countries in the last, like in someone's lifetime. Not even like the 90-year-olds, but like someone who's like our parents' age has lived in four different countries. And I don't know. I think like as horrible as that probably was for. them at certain points in life. I don't know. It's kind of how I see some of my friends, grandparents who are Holocaust survivors. Like it just, for certain people, it does imbue

like a Yolo, like type of optimism. It can absolutely crush other people. But I think I kind saw that a little bit in Slovenia. Like it wasn't very much like, it didn't feel like a hardened place. It felt like a happy place. I'm so curious when this pandemic, is over if we're going to feel like that. I know. Or if, like, I'm, or if we'll just forget about it and go back to normal or there's all the people who've just been normal the whole time. We're like, I'm curious what the effect on the national psyche, particularly in places

that were hit very hard like the U.S. will be. I'm very curious. I'm, I'm with you. I don't know. I don't know even personally how emerge. Okay. And last one, what is one big mistake you made and then finish us on one thing that you feel like you really got right? One thing you really nailed. Oh my gosh. I forgot to prepare for this one,

even though I should have known it was coming. Okay. One mistake I made early on in my career, I kind of started my side hustle when I had my corporate job, which I started a food blog with my best friend from high school. And it did not end well for us, unfortunately. And I think there was just a lot of naivete about what it takes to have a healthy partnership and a lot of communication that wasn't there. And, like, frankly, like, a lot of, like, contractual clarification that just never existed. So I think, unfortunately, it's not like the meltdown of our relationship and our business, our friendship and our business relationship. Like, that wasn't necessarily the mistake because I think that's very human.

But the big lesson that I learned from it was just, you know, about partnership and, you know, transparency. and just, I don't know, communication, I guess, in general. And some... Did that translate into you having a pre-up in your marriage? No, we don't have a pre-up. Just in terms of, like, having everything really outlined in a partnership. That was where my mind immediately went to. Yes, I set Charlie's expectations very low from the get-go.

I told him I was never going to marry him. I might not want children and, like, just really set the bar very low and then have now gone back and all. the things I said, we're married. One thing I got right. I mean, I think I've gotten my relationship right. You certainly make me feel like I've gotten my relationship right. You really, I think you guys are like such a grown-up healthy couple.

Like I think there's a lot of couples. They're just like, oh, they're a couple goals. They live like this couple goals life. But you guys are really an example to me of like what a grown-up healthy partnership looks like. Someone who had a lot of dysfunctional relationships over the course of a lifetime. But I also think you've done a lot of work. Like you've, I feel like you've done the work to deserve to get that almost, you know. Thank you.

I will say what we've done right in our relationship is both of us going to therapy, separately and together. But like, honestly, the work that both of us do individually is way more impactful than I think we could do together. Awesome. Well, Phoebe, if people wanted to keep up with your journey, where is the best place to find you. I have a website called feed me, Phoebe.com, where you can find recipes. You can find like Sebo 101 info. There's like a resources tab. You can go there and just click on Sebo. And then you can

also find my podcast, which is Sebo Made Simple. So if you want to like really nerd out, you can go to that. And then if you want to check out the book, that is just sebo made simple.com. And there's a little gutheal boot camp freebie for people who buy early, which I don't know. is still right now. So go check that out if you're interested. And Instagram, you're Phoebe Lapine. Yes, just my name. Phoebe Lapine. All right. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. This was so fun. I love talking to friends. I hope you loved this episode with Phoebe and you took as much information from it as I did. If there is anybody in your life who you think would benefit from the wisdom that Phoebe shared in this episode, I would so appreciate

if you would share it with them. I'm thinking particularly anybody who struggles with gut health issues or CBO or anything like that, please just send them a link to the episode. I massively appreciate it. And I'm sure that they will massively appreciate it as well. If you love this episode with Phoebe, I would so appreciate a quick rating or review on whatever podcast platform you listen to. It helps other people find the podcast. And it just makes a really big difference. It's a great free way to show support to your favorite content creators. All right. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate you taking the time to spend this hour and half with me. It means the world to me. And I can't wait to see you on the next episode of the Healthier Together podcast. I'm genuinely confused how masterclass gets literally the absolute top people in every single field to teach every single one of their classes. I use it when I want to learn things directly like the cooking class from Thomas Keller has all of the wisdom that you would normally have to go to culinary school for. But also,

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