The Louis Theroux Podcast - S2 EP4: Tracey Ullman on finding fame in the US, her relationship with The Simpsons, and clubbing with Prince

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

In this episode, Louis is joined in the studio by iconic character actor and comedian, Tracey Ullman. Tracey talks about how she found fame in the US, her relationship with The Simpsons, and a surreal night spent at an East Berlin nightclub with Prince. Warnings: Strong language Links/Attachments: Germaine Greer sketch - ‘Tracey Ullman’s Show’ (2016-2018) on BBC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzYi1TkIxaY Jeremy Corbyn sketch – ‘Tracey Ullman Breaks The News’ (2017-2018) on BBC  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOhu9wYo-iI ‘Seven Up!’ (1964) – Granada Television  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAsL8nriAOs ‘Tracey Ullman’s Class Act’ (1993) – ITV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPpQWjWApWs ‘Three of a Kind’ (1984) – BBC Video compilation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXIDEWicubQ Tracey Ullman as Renee Zellweger as JK Rowling – ‘Tracey Ullman’s State of the Union’ (2008-2010) on Showtime  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3YWN8sXFlU The Simpsons on ‘The Tracey Ullman Show’ – Fox  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nekvVuoiTyA  Chic, a Middle Eastern character on ‘Tracey Takes On…’ (1996-1999) – HBO https://youtu.be/SxVRDOf9Bwg?feature=shared&t=114  Mrs. Noh Nang Ning, an Asian character on ‘Tracey Takes On…’ (1996-1999) – HBO https://youtu.be/SxVRDOf9Bwg?feature=shared&t=418  Sheneesha Turner, an African-American character on ‘Tracey Takes On…’ (1996-1999) – HBO https://youtu.be/EyYskzH-iU8?feature=shared&t=1307  ‘When Louis Met…Jimmy Savile’ (2000) – BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0g3zjn9/when-louis-met-series-1-jimmy-savile (UK only)  ‘Louis Theroux: Savile’ (2016) – BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07yc9zh/louis-theroux-specials-savile (UK only)  Black pastor character in ‘Little Britain’ (2003-2006) – BBC  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6BzBntT_w8  ‘A Christian’s job interview’ on ‘Tracey Ullman’s Show’ – BBC  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_jzDGv0KKw  ‘Louis Theroux’s Forbidden America: Extreme and Online’ – BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0014khc/louis-therouxs-forbidden-america-series-1-1-extreme-and-online (UK only) ‘I’ll Do Anything’ (1994) – Trailer  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4UUAeof5Go  Prince – I’ll Do Anything (Demo)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfYj9vjNxcg Credits: Producer: Millie Chu  Assistant Producer: Maan Al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett  Music: Miguel D’Oliveira  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows     A Mindhouse Production for Spotify  www.mindhouse.co.uk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, now we're doing this. You ready? Calm down. Hello, Louis Theroux here. Welcome to the latest episode of my Spotify podcast, The Louis Theroux Podcast. Featuring Tracy Ullman, actress, singer, comedian, writer, producer, director, comedy ledge, and someone who I grew up with. You know, it's always slightly different when I'm talking to someone who was a star when I was in my early teens to mid-teens and the feeling of like the doubling effect on me. Like I'm in here in the room as a 53-year-old man, but also as a child thinking like, how weird, like after all these years, this person I saw as

someone untouchable, someone incredible, someone on my TV screen that now I'm just jawboning with in the flesh. And it feels, I guess, quite special because of that. She was the first British woman to be offered her own sketch show in both the US and the UK. And the programs she's put out over the years, well, speak for themselves. Although, sadly, they're quite hard to find she owns most of them and has chosen or for whatever reason many of them especially the american ones you can't easily get to or buy but a lot of the old british ones are on on youtube a kick up the 80s three of a kind Kind, which she made with Lenny Henry and David Copperfield, not the magician or the Dickens character. Basically anyone in 80s comedy she would have

worked with. And as we go, I try and contextualize for those who are too young to know who some of those people were. All of that would kind of be enough i suppose like that kind of foundational status in the comedy scene but then she moved to america with her tv producer husband alan mckeown who had produced alfie de zane pet and shine on harvey moon and many other great comedies sitcoms and she created the tracy allman Show under the aegis of the legendary James L. Brooks. He was the showrunner. And that was on Fox and had an immensely successful and much garlanded four-year run. Many, many Emmys were won.

It also featured the first appearance of The Simpsons, an animated cartoon series, which you may not have heard of irony we talk about her slightly complicated relationship with that show in the conversation she's also started many films over her career including woody allen's small time crooks for which she received a golden globe okay uh just parenthetically we and we do touch on very gingerly on the Woody Allen subject. And Bullets Over Broadway. And a musical that became a non-musical

by James L. Brooks called I'll Do Anything. We talk about that and other films, but she says herself her main love is TV. After a 30-year absence from British television, Tracy returned with Tracy Ullman's show on the BBC in which she impersonated figures like Angela Merkel, Dame Judi Dench, and Germaine Greer. Which is where we start the chat. We recorded this conversation in person in a mystery location under Tracy Island. That was a real boomer joke. That was a reference to Thunderbirds,

Millie. Tracy arrived with her son, Johnny, in tow, who seems to be a fan of the podcast. So thank you, Johnny, for putting in a word. Mornings, some strong language, and some conversation about Jimmy Savile. All of that and much, much more coming up. Here she is. Nice to meet you. How nice to meet you. How do you do? Shall we shake hands? What do we do?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, come on. Yeah. Nice to meet you. You're a good bloke, you are. Oh, well, that's to be seen, isn't it? We'll see how you feel at the end. Where am I going to sit then?

I think you're sitting there. Yeah, yeah, if that's all right. I'm glad I'm meeting you face to face. I hate these. The remote Zoom thing. You don't like that. We've done a few of those. You can do it.

We did Jermaine Greer. I'm plugging my own podcast because that was in the same run. But she was in fairly remote Australia. And by the way, I know that you did her brilliantly well she's one of the first sort of people who got cancelled in a way it was interesting to me at that time and just for being old you know yeah although that isn't why she got cancelled

she got cancelled well she's i love what she said i got cancelled being old yeah she used that as a thing but she got loads of things yeah mainly what was perceived, probably correctly, as transphobic remarks. But on the subject of Germaine, did you hear from her about your impression? No. I rarely hear from anybody about things. I think you heard from Judy.

You did an amazing day with Judy Dench. Oh, Judy Dench, yeah, yeah. As a sort of national treasure who exploits her treasure status to sort of shoplift and do antisocial behaviour. Yeah. She said it'd be funny. And she went into Marks & Spencer and the man said to her, I've got my eye on you.

I love that. Watching you. Yeah. And then I got to talk to Judi Dench and send her something rather nice and say I'm just you know it's homage to you and I'm living vicariously and you know if you impersonate really famous people which I figured

out to try and do on some shows I did recently you know you get a lot more attention than if you just go out and create characters and I'd never done impersonations I thought I might try this and then did Angela Merkel and Germaine Greer and, you know, Jeremy Corbyn.

Camilla Parker Bowles. The look was amazing. The look was amazing. And it seems somewhat affectionate, the Corbyn. It wasn't like as vicious as it could have been. No, but that was the character I got the most complaints for. My God.

In what way? Oh, just that, you know, I must have written this with David Baddiel and stuff. Oh, really? Yeah, it was a whole lot of stuff. Very strange. And also, he was great. He mentioned me in the House of Commons that day. Hello, it's not Tracey Ullman.

But it was just a great look. I like playing guys. I like being a guy for a day. The premise was he's always feeling whatever setting he's in he starts speaking and then within seconds he's got a microphone or a bullhorn and it's become a kind of a speech and a rally and then everyone starts chanting oh jeremy corbin gosh it seems so long ago now you know but it's funny what you said about because it what resonated with me was you saying um you found that you know having worked in comedy all those years but then doing impressions for the

first time as opposed to characters that you'd written or playing other roles suddenly you get more attention or that people switch on more and yeah which is good if you're you know advertising a show you got a great picture of you as judy dench and walking around judy judy dench in richmond that day filming it, people really thought I was Judi Dench. And I love pretending I am and going into shops and going, yes, we're doing a new Bond actually. And people don't spot the rubber on your face.

You think, can't you see the seam? And they don't. They want to believe it. But I don't do surface impersonations. I try and imbue them with something that I imagine they are. Like Angela Merkel, I imagine she doesn't like being the only woman in the room and the guys hit on her. She thinks that she's six bomb, six bomb.

You know, you have to get a hook for what they're about. Otherwise, you're just doing these sort of, you know, very surface caricatures. So I try and imagine their inner life. I imagine them off camera. Otherwise, you're just doing these sort of, you know, very surface caricatures. And so I try and imagine their inner life. I imagine them off camera. Was there a reason why you'd resisted doing that earlier on? Yeah, because it's not what I do. I just, I always sort of came at it, Louis, as an actress in what I do.

My heroes growing up were Dandy Nichols and Patricia Hayes and Peggy Ashcroft and Joan Plowright. Famous British actresses. I wanted to be a character actress. I used to watch Ken Loach, Kathy Come Home and all those sort of documentary-like, you know, wonderful dramas. And I used to sit in my bedroom at six years old and just pretend I was in a documentary, you know. Don't take in my kids. Get away from my kids. Smoking and just start crying until snot came out of my nose and my mum would shout, oh, shut up.

Go to bed. Stop being in a documentary. Kathy comes home, that was. There's Kathy come home. You're not taking my kids. And I thought it was wonderful. I couldn't believe it was acting but I love that

naturalistic stuff I love that up series they do that Michael Apted started started at 7 14

I mean it's the most brilliant stuff it's the same age as my sister those people so I know it'll be 67

up in a minute I love that you know no one could ever act that beautifully or be that poignant or that emotional. And I've loved that series throughout the years. It's a brilliant series.

Michael Palin and I did a spoof of that years ago. Yeah, it's called Tracy Ullman, A Class Act. A Class Act, yeah. We did a whole thing about the English class system and that was so much fun. And the Seven Up series, which Michael Apted ended up kind of shepherding he started

as a producer on it or an MP yes he did start it just a producer but for the younger audience who may not even know about it it's a landmark

documentary series that started as a brilliant idea exploring how people's lives play out based on the famous Jesuit dictum give me a boy

at 7 and I'll show you the man and it was working class kids you know the little kids saying i just want to have a baby and get married and have a baby and then the middle class kids they're the ones that actually went somewhere did something different because the little posh boys were talking about reading the titans i'm going to do some ball i'm going to do whispers on them you know they all ended up doing that was the ones in the middle that maybe did

something different and the class system in this country i think it's still it, you know, they all ended up doing that. It was the ones in the middle that maybe did something different. And the class system in this country, I think it's still, you know, it's still here. And it's fascinated me throughout my life, really. And I just was wondering why you had to be sectioned off and put in these categories. And that's why I started impersonating people or doing voices because I could see that everybody, as soon as they answered the phone or opened their mouth, people knew where they were from,

what they could aspire to, how much money they people knew where they were from, what they could aspire to, how much money they had, where they were going to be educated. And I just could hear it. And I just thought, wow, I don't want to be part of that. I want to try and... But then again, when I want to be an actress, Louis, you really have to do the voice and be something like RSC. Oh, privy, my lord.

And I thought, well, I can't do that because I'm not that. I'm a funny little bird. I mean, believe it or not, I've done some research. Oh, hello. And that comes up a lot in reading about you and your story and things you've said is this sort of sense of the unfairness of the British class system. Well, it just exists.

It exists and it's sort of, you you know the very apex of it we have the royal family for audience at home i think tracy might have done an eye roll not my cup of tea not my thing have you ever been offered a nighthood or a cbe or an obe you must have done by now you turned it down believe it i want to ask you that um i'm interested in you i'm here today because my kids have told me they're coming because they're interested in you. You're under duress. They told you.

They frog-marched you in here. They do. They like you. But see, I grew up watching you. And you were born late 1959. Last day of the 50s, I was. December 30th, was it? Correct. So when you were coming to fame, that first flush of fame you had,

and in particular, I'm thinking of Three of a Kind, the series you did with Lenny Henry and David Copperfield in the early 80s, I would have been 11, 12, 13. It was right in the sweet spot of what I was looking at on TV. And it tickled me. Like I liked comedy, and it was funny. And I looked back at it on YouTube recently, in preparation for this, and it's still quite funny, actually. recently, in preparation for this, and it's still quite funny, actually. You know, it was one of those shows, really, it was a Saturday night. The whole family watched it, kind of BBC show in the early 80s, and it was great. We got huge ratings and, you know, it was the last mainstream thing I ever did. It was wonderful fun. They found me doing an improvised play at the Royal Court, being an actress, you know, going to the Royal Court, not doing the voice, Louis,

so I did sort of like an improvised play at the Royal Court, which is great, which is a great place to be at that time. And they came and met me and Lenny and Paul Jackson and they just said, do you want to be in a comedy show? I said, no. Was Paul Jackson involved as well? Oh, yeah. Paul was very, he was a good producer in the early 80s. He really found, you know, the young ones.

Yeah, legendary comedy producer. Yeah, and he just let us go. He knew he was on to something new and fresh and young, and I didn't want to be a Benny Hill girl. That was all I thought I was going to be able to do in comedy. Because of the sexism. I mean, Pamela Stevenson was out there doing Not the 9 O'Clock News, who was wonderful.

But it was all about the guys. Go on. So what are you going to do? I'm me coming out of theatre, semi-crappy dancer to get my equity card. I'm not blonde. I haven't got big boobs. I was like, I'm not going to do that stuff.

So I said to Lenny and Paul that night in the pub, I'm not going to do that stuff. I can't do that stuff. They said, no. Lenny was like, you're a good actress. We can do characters. And so we did. And I remember saying to all the writers at the BBC Lime Grove, I don't want to do jokes about traffic wardens or I don't want to be in a bikini and I want to do characters and I want to do real stuff. And I like Kathy

Come Home and Ken Loach and Danny Nichols. And, you know, I was telling them all this stuff. And about two people sent me stuff from a big room of 400 people. And they became great writers with us and really let us do what we wanted to do. But there you go. A while ago, there was the 80s for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was the 80s. So I was one of the... Then you got Dawn and Jennifer came along. Dawn French and Jennifer Swanson. Yeah, who were just amazing. I remember seeing them in a theatre in Soho and thinking, oh, this is the future, the comic strip. And they just were brilliant.

And then, you know, women just had more to say and more to do in comedy. And we weren't just in situation comedy saying, darling, the vicar's here and I'm so terribly worried. You know, it was those sort of stuff. And then I went to America and then I really kind of really didn't see anything or do anything here for like 30 years um I'm going to zoom out for a second like because I feel like you're such a natural entertainer and you've had such a storied career and you've worked with many great auteur directors, Woody Allen, Mel Brooks, Larry David, James L. Brooks, who if people out in radio land don't know, is across the board a kind of American comedy writing and directing legend.

Yeah, he was great to me. Involved in the Mary Tyler Moore show, Taxi. Yeah. yeah and here's where i'm landing with this long preamble is that one of the most liked comments on a sketch that was also on youtube was under a sketch of in which you played wait for it renny zellweger playing jk rowling so an impression that had two layers which is genius already but one of the comments was meryl streep says that the odd thing about having a conversation with Tracy is that at some point you realize she's talking back at you. Her mimic signal is always on. Is that something you're aware of her having said?

Did she? No. That's nice. She's my mate. I've met her years and years and years and years ago. You're Hollywood royalty of a sort, I think. Oh, my goodness. We're off like a herd of turtles.

Oh, peanut. Let's have Meryl talk. I do. Yeah, my radar is on. It's what I can do. I did it as a kid, Lou. It's like you can play football. You can play the piano.

You know, it's like everyone in my class, I could talk like them. And I just was people. I could just suddenly become people. It's how I would explain my day to my family and what I'd done by impersonating people. It's really stupid and sometimes be annoying to people, but it's what I do and what I hear. And of course, with the British class system, hearing all these different accents and regions and going away as a young girl to Liverpool where I met, you know, or Blackpool where

I met Les Dawson, Newcastle, just because I wanted to learn the accents. And I love people. I find people really interesting. You do, for God's goodness sake. And then going to America and having this whole new canvas and all these new people to meet and people are so kind and interesting. Do you, I'm going to put you on the spot now, having said that when you're having a conversation with Tracy, she's talking back at you. Could you do me? Yeah, eventually, yeah. Would it take a little while? I thought it did, yes.

Well, I like when you just sort of like, you're with like rappers in the hood in these dangerous areas and they've taken you in with them and you're there in your jeans and your glasses from, where did you go, Lens Crafters or Specsavers? You've got a deal with them, have you? No, I haven't. I actually go to a place in Halston.

It's Jubilee Opticians. I'll give them a shout out. Give them a shout out. Jubilee Opticians. And I love it when you're in the middle and someone will play you this really rough, raw, gritty rap song and you'll just stop and go, that's really good.

You're happy with that, aren't you? You like that? And you're just such a nice decent english fella you play up the english thing in the get-go yeah you know on that subject i'm going to twist it back onto you because i think like you i straddle two cultures but we're specifically american and british and i suppose a bit like you you had your big break in the uk but then you had a second break when you went to America, relatively unknown, and they took a huge chance on you. And the first things I did on TV were in America.

And I often think that I wouldn't have been on TV if I'd stayed in the UK. I wouldn't have thought I had much to offer. In America, what I had to offer was I was so different to the worlds that I found myself in, and I could play up to that a bit. Me too. And I could go in to meet the Ku Klux Klan. I had no gifts for mimicry or improvisation or comedy in particular. But just by being myself and slightly playing it up a tiny bit, then there was a kind of chemistry that went with it.

They like Brits. Yes, they do. They like the British bit I play up went with it. They like Brits. Yes, they do. They like the British bit. I play up sometimes in America. They, you know, they just love it. But I went a different way. When I married Alan, I moved to America with him, and he really wanted me to stay there and try and do pilots,

and that's where TV was at that time, you know. You had to live in L.A., and there were the three networks. And I got pregnant rather quickly, and Willie was going to do nothing for a while. Once you got there or basically. Yeah, yeah. And I met James Brooks, who you mentioned, James L. Brooks. James L. Brooks.

Who was just on. Who directed, he's won about 30, like an absolute ton of Emmys. He did Mary Tyler Moore's show, Rhoda. He just won the Oscars for Terms of Endearment. He did Taxi. He described you as a genius. He was so good to me. He likes women. And he met me and when I was pregnant, he just said, look, we're gonna do a show. He said, you're gonna have your baby. And he said, and while

you're pregnant, he said, you're gonna learn about America. He said, because you know, you've got something great we want to work with. He said, but you've got to know about America. And he said, I want you to go to the Museum of Television and Broadcasting in New York, and go in and watch everything. Watch news watch the you know your show of shows from the 50s the show where mel brooks started and woody allen started never watched it and get a great it's amazing is it funny it's good because you know you've got these carl reiner writing on it mel brooks you know woody allen and And they came from a generation of very educated, kind of smart New York guys who were very worldly.

They'd been in the Second World War. They'd traveled around. And they really came at things from really interesting viewpoints. So he made me go and do my homework in a way. So I didn't just arrive in America and think, oh, I can just make fun of you guys or something. So I have a great respect for him and making me do that. And so by the time, two years later, I came to do a TV show,

you know, I knew something about America. I'd lived there for two years. I'd watched all these shows. I'd, you know, had a baby there. I was, you know, I was a homeowner there. So it was, I really felt part of it all. And then I impersonated so many people and a lot of people didn't really know I

was an English girl sometimes and I love that I like this total immersion and then it was hard to talk to people like you can't just look anyone up on let's mention YouTube again nowadays but back then I'd be like oh wow I really want to sound like a girl from Brooklyn so I'd ring a car dealership in Brooklyn or just try and talk to somebody or ring a library. And that's how I would just talk to people and get accents because I have to listen to the real people. But it was very exciting to take on this whole new country and then find, I'd find people in Ohio. I thought, yeah, you're just like girls from Manchester in England and that same sort of, there was a class system in America, but it was more based on money as opposed to, you know,

your ancestry. But what had been behind you, because you were famous in Britain. And in fact, not just through Three of a Kind and Kick Up the 80s and Girls on Top and other shows, you had a, had a pop career. You'd had a number of top 10 hits.

And they were just fun. And I just camped it up, you know, put on a Lurex miniskirt and did my old dance routine. It's been annoying to all those musicians who've been struggling for hits for years. And then you waltz in a comedian or comic actress and have a ton of hits and success. But the point being, you had a huge profile in the UK. I wanted to be with that record label Stiff because they had a T-shirt that said,

if it ain't Stiff, it ain't worth a fuck. I thought, God, I want one of those t-shirts. And I still wear it now. But I'm feeling rebellious, you know, just go to that Tesco Express wearing that, Louis. Do you still have it? Just piss off the staff. It still does.

Do you have a little bit of a punk rock energy? I do. I'm still 14 in my head. I'm still a rebel. Did you see yourself as part of the alternative scene in the early 80s when comedy felt like it was just throwing a stick of dynamite in everything? What, the comic strip and stuff? Yeah, all of that.

No, I wasn't really part of that. But you were friends with all those people. Yeah. You were on the same show that Rick Mayall's first show. Rick Mayall, legendary, nearly departed comic performer. Robbie Coltrane. His first thing was Kick Up the 80s. But I was always the sensible one.

They were wild. But you were conscious of wanting to change things and not be part of this sexist, racist... I realised that there was more opportunity at that time for women to do comedy shows. I realised that, you know, Gilda Radner had been on Saturday Night Live. Carol Burnett had her own TV show in the 50s,

in the 60s in America, and obviously Lucille Ball, who we all know. And I thought, show in the 50s and 60s in America. And obviously, Lucille Ball, who we all know. And I thought, wow, there's only shows with women in England. And so to go to America and then do a variety show was a huge thing. And I really was the girl that no one had heard of on a network that didn't exist. What was behind the move? Why did you go over there? To get married to Alan McHugh. And he was living there? Yep. My husband loved living in America when I met him and married him at 23.

And I was 23. He was a bit older than me. And, oh, God, big Al. Fantastic. Great. My life began when I met that bloke, Louis. Great, great guy. Very ambitious.

I've heard you say that before. That's a beautiful thing. He's a beautiful guy. That's quite a big statement to say, isn't it? Yeah, but it's true. It's true. He was confident and great bloke, good-looking bloke in handmade suits and funny.

And he said, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, and you should come to America. And, oh, we'll go in and we'll, you know, just a self-made guy, had a great personality and a lot of ideas and a lot of confidence. And he instilled me with all that um what my point is is that you have a huge profile huge success in the uk are you thinking like i want to try i need not particularly alan decided i should go to america because he saw

that you could make yeah he saw that i could get a network deal over there and work for cbs and do pilots and make more money and go a bit further and and he was right. And I did. And it was great. Gooseband and everything. And I'd gone as far as I could in England, I think, in the 80s after the song started to peter out. So you went there. And, you know, so this theme about the class system and, you know, the relevant quote that I thought of when reading up on your story

is from George Bernard Shaw, who in the preface to Pygmalion in 1912 wrote, it is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him. There you go. Whereas another philosopher called Tracy Ullman said, I'm even more amazed by the British class system now that I live away from it. It's just extraordinary.

You open your mouth and people know exactly where you're from and what your aspirations are and how much money you have. I just said that again. See, you start repeating yourself in life. You do. And it would seem ridiculous. And the royal family just seems ridiculous to me. It always did.

You know, it was like we pay the millions of pounds to be better than us. It's what my husband used to say. So I'm not into all that. What would you like to see happen to the royal family? I don't know. What do they want to do? They're not going to just go away, are they? I mean, they've got all these lovely houses and they...

Do you feel bad for Meghan and Harry? No, not at all. They're living in Santa Barbara. That's a torture. All the money in the world doesn't insulate you from grief and existential angst and the pain of family separation. No, I feel sorry for them. A lot of it must be dreadful. But I just don't get that side of things. Some people get it, some people don't, Louis, you know that. And I think a lot of people in this country feel that way. I mean, the irony is that LA in its own way has an acute, I mean, unbelievably sort of stratified sense of social hierarchy, right? It's the classic place where if you're at the party and someone thinks that you're smaller than they are career wise, prestige wise.

Oh, yeah. They talk to someone else. Pecking order. Totally. You get it. You know, we really see it. And it's never got to me, never bothered me. I got to do what I wanted to do in Los Angeles. And if you're working and you're having a wonderful time, There's a great creative community there. You go there to instigate ideas. And if you get to do it, which we did for a number of years and we were filming and working with great crews and writers, and it's a fabulous community, a working community. It's the people that aren't doing anything that bitch about the place. And if you don't like it, shut your jacuzzi lid and go home.

It's a tough place. It's an industry town. It's like if you're in Detroit, you're going to talk about cars. But it's a tough place. It's like, it's an industry town. It's like if you're in Detroit, you're going to talk about cars, you know. But it's a beautiful place to be. And there's great things about Los Angeles. I had a wonderful time there. Because I got to do what I wanted to do. I don't like all that bullshit, you know, the agents and the parties and the red carpet-y bollocks.

And, you know, you get involved in that if you have to. But it's not what you really want to do. You want to do the work, you know. get involved in that if you have to but it's not what you that you really want to do you want to do the work you know we should talk about how you became successful there we've mentioned james l brooks um basically what was the process by which you ended up with your own show fairly quickly by the looks of it yeah there was a new network starting the fox network and rupert murdoch had bought Fox and there were a number of new shows to be created and James L Brooks had a big contract at Fox and he saw me I think in plenty with Meryl Streep and I probably saw my I was on MTV at that time with the records and was took a meeting with me and decided to do a show with me and so that was great and then I went off and had

my baby and as I told you he told me to. And so that was great. And then I went off and had my baby. And as I told you, he told me to get an education in America, come back. And then I got some great writers. He put together great people. Julie Kavner, who'd been in Rhoda. And now she's, you know, Julie Kavner. She is Marge Simpson. About, you know, like four weeks into the show,

James said, we need some animated segments. Why don't we do animation? We were very enthusiastic about this guy called Matt Groening. You had these books called Life in Hell. And a number of people were. And he came in and he pitched a totally new idea to be little interstitial pieces within the Tracey Ullman show. And so the Simpsons got their start on my show. And it was fantastic. It was, and I remember them coming in and saying, we need people to record these voices. And Tracy, you're too busy doing something else.

And Julie, would you be the voice of Marge Simpson? Okay, sure. And off they'd go and they'd record in this booth. And it became huge. It spun off and, as we know, is in its 36th season. It payrolled the Fox network. Because at that time it was a struggling network

and then thereafter a lot of their problems were solved by this evergreen cultural product. Yeah. And Matt Groening, the original,

I mean, he's a brilliant, brilliant man and it's wonderful. It's fabulous to be associated with it. Okay, so I don't want to make

things super awkward but we'll see how this goes. So I think at times you've had maybe an ambivalent relationship with the Simpsons phenomenon. I mean, I know you jokingly said, I breastfed those little devils, but that there was maybe, I mean, I would understand like a feeling that, well, was there a financial side of this where you felt you weren't getting there was a the payday that you were entitled to yeah and it was after it became super successful they went off and then suddenly did you not get money from i do i do incubated the simpsons right yes i mean it was a spin-off yeah it was a spin-off what so what happened um and then contractual point was bought up by some lawyers I had at the time

that maybe I should get some more. And so it was... But the Simpsons probably, as a phenomenon, didn't make much money, did it? That was my ironic remark. When I was in Italy one year, like the second year in, and I saw like, you know, a bagno, a body of bambini, you know, like Simpsons bath foam. And I said to Alan, I think it's doing pretty well here. No, it's made a heck of a lot of money.

So you get a piece of that? A little piece of it. A small piece of that is still quite a tidy little sum. It saves me from having to do pantomime at the theatre, Louis or I don't know. It's, you know, it's nice to have. Do you know that you're listed... I think on Wikipedia is one of the wealthiest something or others

in the world. Oh, for goodness sake. I don't know what it is. 75 million, they say. That's probably a bit low. That's ridiculous. I'm worth far more than that. Please. So do little checks come in or big checks from The Simpsons?

Bits and bobs. Bits and bobs, Louis. I keep going. It's nice, you know. You've been on The Simpsons. Have they animated you? I haven't been on The Simpsons. You haven't?

No. You look like somebody that should have been. You'd be so easy to animate. I think that's an insult. You started off in comedy. What does that even mean? How did you feel when Adam Buxton and the other boat did a comedy show? That's the most inscrutable remark.

Did you feel funny about them? About what? Them doing a comedy show. And did you feel a bit left behind at this point? Is it you turning the tables? Yeah, I try. Look at me. Tracey Ullman turns the tables on Louis Theroux.

So what I was going to say was, though, going to America for me was a quite liberating thing. And as a half American, I felt like there was a lack of judgment and a feeling that I felt there was a lifting of a sense of self-consciousness. And the culture is so weird that there was stuff to get your teeth into. Yeah, it does make you lose your inhibitions a bit. Is that what it is yeah i love the optimism and then our little pessimism and sort of like self-depreciation and humor being humble goes a long way it's good mix but there's also this thing where um in in la in particular that self-deprecating attitude of oh i'm working on something it's probably going to be shit yeah

yeah yeah we go we had a run through and no one laughed and in america in la they find that quite confusing yes they're like they look worried yeah they're like oh okay well you know maybe you'll maybe you could do a rewrite you're like and suddenly like no no you know you're supposed to just laugh i'm just i'm just i'm just making myself small so that you don't feel threatened by you and instead of which they oh, no, it's almost like a contagion. I hope I don't catch your failure from you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and you think what's the point of saying that?

I know it's like when, you know, I had success then. They go, this is great. It's so great. You're so great, you know. And in England, they'd be like, how did you manage this? You know, I think envy is our biggest export sometimes here and it's like but then it keeps you you know humble all that stuff but i know i love the american enthusiasm and but they're just as sarcastic as us really and it just takes them a while to be meaner about people

than it does with us yeah you know The End hi i'm louis theroux and you're listening to the louis theroux podcast and now back to my conversation with tracy allman so uh okay we're gonna wade into the culture wars now, so strap in. So some of the sketches, looking back, are clearly sailing close to the wind in a way that certainly nowadays probably would be questioned. And, you know, you've always been about characterisation, observation, almost in an Alan Bennett way. Does that resonate with you? That feeling of like you could be doing mini plays,

characters with backstories and inner lives, as much as about the comedy, like all really great comedy. It's sort of also about the tragedy, right? Yes. The poignancy and the sadness of people I like, yeah. And in there as well, how do I put this? Occasionally you take on what would be called, I suppose, transracial. I just, I didn't make that up, but I've thrown that word in there.

Everybody. I wanted to be everybody. I was like. You played No Nang Ning, a donut store owner, Shanisha Turner, an airport security worker, and Chick, or Chicko. Is that right? Chick. Chick.

A determinate Middle Eastern cab driver. I was got into a cab in New York once, and this like Middle Eastern guy said to me, Hey, your leg sucks? Just straight up there, little you went. Ah, ah, woof, you know. And he pointed to his, he said, this is my love cabinet. His, you know, the compartment in the car. I thought, oh, God, I want to be that guy, you know.

So I could do anything, you know. I had this amazing makeup department. I'd dress up. I'd put all this hair all over my arms. I was like for Chick. I was like, it was the itchiest, craziest character I've ever done. And I would be at four in the morning in a gas station in downtown L.A. shooting this stuff.

And I thought I was somebody else. I get high from becoming other people and enveloping myself in these makeups and stuff. And it was fascinating. It's what everyone was doing 30 years ago you know and you just it just I wanted to be everybody it was really interesting when you were playing Shanisha Turner say playing a black character at that time would that have felt you know nowadays no you wouldn't do it now you wouldn't do did it feel like a dangerous or a big step I just felt fun and I was with other black actors and I think I did it because Eddie Murphy had just been a white woman.

And, you know, it was like it was so much going on. And you could just do it. And it was done with energy and interest and love and, you know, love of people. And you wouldn't do it now. And it was, you know, there's this historical nuance. But it didn't feel like a live wire at that time. No, it didn't feel like a live wire at that time, no.

I think the Asian character character ning yeah i mean if i if i now you look back and you think oh somebody saw that and was hurt or felt that you feel terrible but there was pushback at the time about that one i think was there there were some protests yeah which i mean well they probably were right it was it was the wrong thing to do and i apologize and it was in the past now and i feel bad about it and what can you do it's like then it seemed fun and you know people do things all the time and then in you know now it's like we're living through this culture and everyone's just be awash with shame for what they ever did or thought and i think we're going through a big big questioning period and as we should but no it's not something i would do today these things are constantly being revisited and

rethought and tastes change and it's very easy to look back and poke holes and be whether it's wise after the event or or to apply cultural standards that perhaps it's really hard perceive things differently in different eras i'm you do the two Jimmy Savills is fascinating because you saw him as somebody totally different. Yes. When you first did it, you were taken in by that now then, now then guy. Does Jimmy Savill come into the room suddenly? He does always.

And I remember showing him, a clip of him to my writing friends in America. They went, God, that guy's weird. Why did you show him? I don't remember. I just remember showing them Jimmy Savile before the big thing. They thought he was so strange

that England would like somebody like that. And I went, what's wrong? That's Jimmy Savile. But you know, look how your perception of him changed.

That shifted, didn't it? Did your son say to you, like, if he gives you a hard time, you know what to do, Tracey? If you get stuck on the whole what you did 30 years ago, if that comes up, come right back at him with Jimmy Savile. Just look at him, he'll scratch his head,

and then come back at him with the Jimmy Savile. Because everybody's got their shit from the past that they're dealing with, Louis. It's like shit from your past. It's things that you thought were different back then that you just look at now and go, oh! Well, I always thought he was weird. We all have this.

The reason I made the first documentary was because I thought he was so weird, right? It wasn't because I thought, oh, he seems like a nice man. But you were playing along with him and doing that, oh, Jimmy's fun, you know. No, I wasn't. A little bit. No, I wasn't. But I love the second one. You know, when you realise.

I appreciate that. I appreciate it. I deserve to have my feet held to the fire. No, you're great with everyone. And actually, you know, it's realize. I appreciate that. I appreciate it. I deserve to have my feet held to the fire. No, you're great with everyone. And actually, you know, it's quite a hard-headed piece of work. But that's me reviewing my own. I remember him when I was at Top of the Pops.

I was there at Top of the Pops. Noel Edmonds, Dave Lee Travis. So you actually knew him? I met him. No. I just remember those days, you know. I'd be hanging out with U2 and Spandau Ballet and Duran Duran. And what did you make of Jimmy Savile?

Jimmy Savile? He was just, you know, that was a national treasure kind of thing back then wasn't it you know i don't think he was ever quite a national treasure but he was regarded as an institution and someone who oh he does a lot for charity but he's a bit weird and there's some stories but steve coogan is doing an amazing job in this series about him have you watched coogan's is a is a genius he's a brilliant actor and he's just brilliant. Me and my son send each other Alan Partridge memes every day. You know, he's a genius. So, anyway. Did you say memes?

What do you call them, memes? I don't know. I think you said memes. Did I say a meme? I don't know. I'm silly. What's the word? I don't know.

I'm someone's grandmother now, Louis. What is the word? I get told off because I don't remember passwords for Netflix, for flipping Disney+, for the flipping shows. I've got Elijah having a go at me. I've got you having a go at me about my past. I've got my grandson at home telling me, do you know what he said to me the other day?

He said, why don't you remember the password for the Disney thing? And I said, I'm trying to do it, Elijah. And he went, I don't think you've got the expertise. You're some four years old. I go, oh, give me a break. I love it when they come out with a $2 word, like, unexpectedly. That's lovely. You haven't got the expertise.

Memes. I think the word is memes. Memes, yeah. I don't see memes. Memes. But Steve Coogan's brilliant. Who else do you like? Dave Chappelle.

He's telling the truth out there for me now. It's like, I go see Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock at the O2 and it's like a, oh, it's just like

an evangelical meeting. I'm just like, thank God someone's saying this. Do you? Yes, I do. I'm glad to hear you.

The passion. I love him. He calls me a gilf, Dave. Uh, which is a... A grandmother I'd like to fuck. He The passion. I love him. He calls me a gilf, Dave. Which is a... A grandmother I'd like to fuck. He called me that once.

And do you know what that means to someone like me when you've got your grandson picking on you and you're coming in to see Louis Theroux talking about shit from the past? It helps. Of course it does. God, I'm really kicking off now, aren't I? I could be a gilf.

A grandfather. Actually, I'm not actually a grandfather, but 53. Are you going to love this grandfather stuff? It's figurative. It's really nice. You're nowhere near it. But Dave Chappelle. Love Dave Chappelle.

Love Chris Rock. He's considered quite controversial now, I think. But he's talking because he's trying to talk through stuff. It wasn't easy for Lenny Bruce in the 60s. Go Google that guy. You know, you're trying to say something different. You're trying to be honest out there. You're going to get criticism. You know, you're going to say something different. You're trying to be honest out there. You're going to get criticism.

You know, you're going to have to answer back for it. But he does an amazing job. He really, really makes me laugh. So with Dave Chappelle, some of the trans stuff is what he's got in trouble for. Yeah. Thoughts? Well, you know, to comment, you've got to listen to the whole thing and his whole take on it.

And he's talking about, you know, Dave Chappelle had one of the first trans stand-up comedians, comics, a guy very sadly who's now no longer with us. He took him out on tour with him. I mean, he has no... It's a very complex issue and people take offence and talk about it and it's an ongoing conversation. But he just wants to... He loves people and he wants to be funny

and he wants to comment on things around him. And he has a right to. What about Little Britain? You know, I think that was a brilliant show in its day. We all did. We loved it. And now poor Matt and David, who were bloody brilliant in it, they take the crap for it because it got taken off by the BBC. It makes them look bad.

Everyone at the BBC was loving that show and the writers loved it and everyone loved it and the public loved it. So, you know, historical nuance again. You wouldn't do it today. But, you know, it makes them look bad and they shouldn't at all. But they did a fantastic job.

And mind you, they've both got good careers and on they go and on you go. But that was something. When they pulled the episode of the Germans from the Fawlty Towers, that's when it got a bit absurd. I think that's when everyone went, actually, it's gone a bit far. Because the major, one of the characters, whose wholeawlty Towers. That's when it got a bit absurd. I think that's when everyone went, actually, it's got to be fine.

Well, because the major, one of the characters, whose whole character was that he was kind of a regressive, Colonel Blimpish, out of touch old geezer. Yeah.

And he dropped the N-bomb, I believe. So that was why they took it down. So it was, I think the defense, which I think is reasonable,

is that he was a racist character. He wasn't endorsing And there were people like that around then, talking like that, you know. Little Britain and Come Fly With Me, do you know if they're back up?

I don't think so. They tried to edit them and stuff. You could try and do that with the shows I did in the 90s. You could try and edit bits out that people are uncomfortable with. I wouldn't even want to try. Are there shows of yours that couldn't be shown now because of changing tastes? I don't know. I i just don't they're just not for sale anymore that's that era is done i don't know don't you want your work out there uh i can't i don't really think of

it like that no i'm not very nostalgic i'm not the best job i do will be my next one i'm very forward thinking i still have some things in me I really want to do. I want to be, you know, Judi Dench and Maggie Smith now. I want to be in that next era of character. I still want to be a character actress, Louis. I've done some fabulous, weird, brave, odd, controversial stuff. I've had a fabulous career. I had a fabulous marriage.

I got to go places I never thought I'd ever go. And I've got two brilliant kids and I've got two brilliant grandsons. I don't look at the past and think, oh, I want that out there still. You can still see it on YouTube. The best bits are on YouTube. There's loads of bits. I'm looking forward to doing some great stuff before I leave the planet in 25 years. Well, careful and steady.

We haven't got to the end yet. I'm trying to wrap it up. I'm trying to do a lovely wrap-up that you can edit. No, no, we haven't got there. Because you've already said we're going to cut that. Do you need a breather? No, cut. No. All right, fine.

Okay, that was a lovely wrap-up. We're not ending it. Oh, Christ. Stop it. Oh, bloody. Who's going to let me out of here? Can I dial back? I just want to have a laugh.

Can I dial back to the beginning? I do. I'm living to laugh, Louis. Of course. Stop having a laugh. I mean, what's life for? Especially like in the darkest times. And actually, I do think that the risk that we run with, you know,

sensitivity over comedy is that, you know, you can't process aspects of the human experience, of sort of cultural hot potatoes, if you can't make comedy out of them. No, and it's a tough old world to be funny about right now. It really is. God, it seems like just crazy to me when I'm seeing people coming out of fashion shows

on red carpets right now or posing at cameras. Do you know there's a war on? This world is on fire. It's just a terrible time. It's really rather scary. And all you're hearing about is climate change and war and, you know, breakdowns of society.

It seems so trite to be here talking about what I did or something. You know, you just feel, wow, it just pales into insignificance. It seems crazy right now. Well, I was struck, though, that you also got, in certain respects, a left-wing anti-establishment, iconoclastic sensibility, but you also have a sort of refreshing, I don't know, kind of freewheeling.

You come at things from all sides. One of the funniest sketches I saw of yours, relatively recent, was about a woman going up for a job and she's got the job and then it turns out she's a Christian and then suddenly it's like the job's been revoked because they're like oh she seems so weird just because she's a christian yeah that was a good sketch and then in general you've said there's a really interesting extended interview with you that you did with a university called emerson i think somewhere in america and you were talking about the liberal hollywood bubble

you was talking about late night comedians all making fun of Trump, that it's boring. You said they need to get out into middle America and meet the Trump voters and understand them. Yeah. Well, you do. You go out into America and you really try and understand what's going on. Stop making it about me.

What about you? It's about you. You're very important, Louis. Oh, thank you. But do you think there's too much safe, on-side, liberal comedy? Yeah, everyone just sitting in those. And, you know, five years ago, it was just so white guy late night. I'm just so sick of it.

I want some more girls in there. I think that era's kind of going now. I mean, because you couldn't beat Letterman. Letterman was the greatest. And then you've got just these same talking heads talking about Trump every night and doing the same kind of rhythms and standing in front of the windows. And even that naff guy that you interviewed that

right guy that he just laughs all the time and talks about i don't want a lot of you know like immigrants in my country because i love my god that stupid guy with the teeth and he's in front of a window you know and it's exactly like letterman from the 90s because he's picked up these tv things and he's using all these little things and he's a little asshole he's just a little lost guy. Yeah, yeah. What does he think is going to happen? Think that women are going to go,

we're really sorry that we ever decided to go to work. Of course we'll go back into the house and have babies again. You're right. You know, they're just kidding themselves. But the way he's adopted those rhythms of a late-night talk show guy doing the things, just laughing about everything and pretending he's being ironic. You're referring to a documentary I made called

Extreme and Online, part of a series. He's from Chicago. Chicago. He's a young sort of incel. Now, he'll hear us talking about this now and he'll just like do something on me, on his, maybe on his, you know. But there was just a sadness and an anger

and it's like, what do you think? People are just going to change and say, you were right. How could we possibly have the gall to say. I was teeing you up to say something about the liberal bubble. Yeah, there is a liberal bubble. Yeah, of course there is. So what should they be doing?

I mean, is that why you like Dave Chappelle? Because it feels like he's actually just willing to aim his fire in any direction. Like he doesn't really. He does care. He does care. He's a just willing to aim his fire in any direction. He doesn't really... He does care. He does care. He's a good man. I don't mean he doesn't care as in he doesn't care about society. He's not going to rein it in for the sake of those critics or those parts of the media establishment that take issue with him.

Yeah, exactly. So, hello, ladies and gentlemen. You're joining us for the Louis Thoreau podcast. The older section. For anybody over 50 who might enjoy this show, somebody's on the show who talks about people like Dandy Nichols. It's the early bird special. Yeah.

You know, I always assumed that you were Jewish, something people sometimes assume about me. It turns out you're not Jewish. You're half Polish, half British Roma. Is that right? I don't know. I've never done my DNA. I don't know.

I'm a person. I don't know. I'll do a DNA test. Well, you know that your dad was Polish. Well, my dad came over from Poland. He died when I was six. I really don't know anything about his family. My mother was illegitimate on one side and Swedish something.

Is the term Romani? Would you say gypsy? Well, she used to say we were gypsies, but I don't think we were Romani gypsies. I don't know. I'll do a DNA test. I don't know. Can you imagine me going on that bloody who do you think you are show and then all the horrific, you know, crazy, know crazy alcoholic nut and mean people in my family

start coming up i couldn't bear it i don't ever talk about myself or my personal life i hate it do you yeah i don't take any pleasure in talking about who i am or what i do really no not really let me have a go you you're getting more out of me than you know but i knew this would happen that's why no no no i think by the way you, you know, I'm not all about, like, let's get to the quivering jelly. Do you know what I mean? If I wrote a book about my take on Hollywood, who gives a shit? I give a shit.

I give a shit. You've got a lot to say. Yeah, but, you know, so what? I see a lot of pain in you. Oh. So your dad died. It sounded horrendous. He was reading you a bedtime story when you were six years old

and had a heart attack. He was reading you a bedtime story when you were six years old and had a heart attack. He was taken off to hospital. Your family told you that he'd gone on holiday. Yeah, really covered the grief thing well with the kid. No, he's not dead. He's gone on holiday. And I thought, oh, he must be somewhere sitting by a pool with a, you know, and the drinks and a little umbrella in it.

But that's how they handled grief in 1966. And gradually you think, like, when's he coming back? You're like, God, he's going on a long holiday. It was ridiculous. I know he's dead. I was one of those very factual kids. I know he's dead. He died in front of me.

Yes, it's, yeah, I missed him all my life. Wow, wouldn't it have been great to have a dad? That's nice. Well, you know. He, I think, made a decent living. Yeah. Is he a solicitor? Yeah, he was.

He was a lawyer. He was a translator. He came over during the war from Poland, and then he had a solicitor? Yeah, he was. He was a lawyer. He was a translator. He came over during the war from Poland and then he had a shop in Slough and he used to put me on the counter in his shop and he used to make me sing a little Polish folk song in front of his customers. That's what I remember.

And I used to stand on the Zoszale Gorale and I used to sing it. And he used to say, Tracy, she's going to be a star. That's all I remember about my dad. Wow. Oh, damn it. And then he went on holiday for six weeks. No.

So you have very small memories. I remember his voice. I remember the things about him, yeah. But that makes you tough as a girl. You lose a parent and you're on your go. It's not easy. Am I right that part of this was also dealing with the financial upshot of his dying which meant yeah he was he would he was you know made money

and we went to private schools and things i remember and then i remember we just being you know taken out of school and put somewhere else and having to be the new kid and little state school and just be you know and then my weapon against it all became being in the school shows you know suddenly I was in the school show and I could be the star of the school show and I had a nice teacher that and then a really really nice teacher when I was 12 and Mr Harding Ronald Harding Stepgates junior school said um you're very very good in these school shows and um you know getting a lot of impact with the other children and I think you should go to a stage school a special school.

I thought, what does he mean? And he helped me get a scholarship to the Italia Conti Stage School, which was back then, it was just a lovely thing for me to be able to do. Go to London every day and learn to sing, dance and act and met some fabulous friends and had a laugh. I was very naughty at school. But it was a lovely, lovely thing that he did for me. And it's true that you meet a couple of teachers in your life that really help you.

And then when I was doing the Tracey Ullman show, cut to, in the Fox show in the 80s, he was traveling around California with a group of educators, and he came to see my show. And he said, Ronald Harding is your headmaster. And I went, oh, my goodness, Mr. Harding. And I brought him onto the stage after the show when I used to say good night to everybody in my bathrobe and on camera and you know this wonderful man in polished brogues and a Harris tweed suit Mr Harding who I was sort of terrified of at school and I got to thank him on television in

America and say thank you Mr Harding for just spotting that all those years ago. And he was so shy and so English. He went, oh, dear, you know, like this. And, you know, he was so complete. I was hugging him and thanking him. And I just really appreciated it. And it was lovely that I got to come full circle and say thank you to Mr. Harding. Did you feel like an outsider at school?

Yeah. Yeah, I thought I was very awkward. And I felt the whole stage school thing was just ridiculous. Some of the kids there were like, well, I've been in a Barbie commercial and a McVitie's commercial and I'm going to be a star. And I thought, what do you mean?

You know, there was me, awkward little girl that looked like a troll in black tights, you know, and I thought is that what being a star is? Or just being blonde? But then I started doing voices and doing improvisations and writing sketches at school, and then I realised the power I had in words and in comedy.

And I thought, ah, they can't do that. And I'd get sent along to stupid auditions with loads of the little girls that had been in the commercials, and they'd line us up on the stage for a West End musical, and they'd say things like, you step forward and you step forward. And I remember once I thought someone pointed to me and I stepped forward and he went,

no, no, not you, dear, the little blonde girl next to you. And I thought, oh, this is painful. It's crazy how we remember those things. Yeah, and I thought, you bastard. I thought, that's horrible. Let it go. I know. Look, where is she now?

Exactly. Where is she now? Exactly. Where is she now? Her name is Kim Bassinger. Yeah. Actually, that wouldn't work. I could have worked as a joke if I thought of someone who is still super successful. Who paid for your scholarship? I guess the county council.

Thank you. The Labour County Council. Thank you, Labour County Council, for paying for my scholarship. I wonder if they do that now. No, I don't know. And I think... Well, there's the Brit School now. I mean, there's many schools that really help talented kids

and potentially talented kids, you know. There's things like that now. There's academies and Paul McCartney's got some folks in Liverpool. Yeah, LIPA, Liverpool Institute of Performing Arts. There was a point where your mum remarried. I think you had a difficult time with the stepfather. Yeah, I didn't go great. Well, that's, you know, it's hard.

It's hard to integrate families. And so, you know, it wasn't great. But, you know, she tried. It was up to her. She wanted to. He was a difficult man. I don't, you know, it was a difficult marriage. I don't really know.

I was off up to Clapham in my tap shoes by that point, living with my auntie Brenda. Really? Who was fantastic. Who used to put me on tables in a pub and make me sing. You know, I was looking for a laugh, Louis. I was looking to get out. I thought there's something great out there. And when I was 16, I went to Berlin. So I got out. When you were 16? I always knew there was something going on that was going to be better out there and more fun and lighthearted. And then I met Alan McKeown when I was 21 and my life really began. You don't like staying in the dark places.

Well, why would I do that in public? It's awful. No, you've had fun from that. I had my moments. My mum had these half-brothers who had these hilarious friends called Butch Castle and David James who we used to go to Benidorm with on holidays. I used to laugh so much.

I used to wet myself every day. I mean, I love laughing. I love guys making me laugh. Were they the ones who said she looks like a troll? Yeah, they were just so mean to me. Exactly. They said, look at her, she's like a troll. And my sister Patty

is a really, really pretty, beautiful girl. They go, Patty's gorgeous, isn't she? Trace looks like a troll. And then when

they saw me again when I was older and quite successful, they went, you've done alright, you're still like a fucking troll. It didn't feel

hurtful at all. No, I love it, it makes me laugh. That's Bantz, isn't it? You can get in trouble for Bantz nowadays. They would never call it Bantz. No. all. No, I love it. It makes me laugh. That's bants, isn't it? You can get in trouble for bants nowadays. They would never call it bants.

No. No. They'd call it reality. Gosh, I'm getting so old. Stop it. We're older. Like 63 in new money

is like decimal. 63 in new pence is like 45 in old money. I keep in fit. I get into cold water every morning. You look great, by the way.

I don't eat after six. You look amazing. Do I? Yeah. I wouldn't say you're a gilth because that would be weird. No, it's like, calm down. I can't get away with that. No.

What's your regimen? I've never eaten a processed food in my life. My mother never allowed me sugar. I've never done drugs. Ever? I've never even seen cocaine. Smoked a spliff? Yeah, I've done that. But I've never even seen cocaine and i've yeah i've done that but i've

never even seen cocaine it was so weird i've lived in hollywood and i've been in music business i just like veginin paracetamol with a splash of codeine that's the naughtiest thing i seriously yeah what are you doing for fun at the moment um i love all new music what did you love on things i went to see marina abramovich and the Callas musical opera the other night. So what I do, I get out and about a bit. I've got some really good friends. What would inhibit you from finding a fella? I don't know.

I don't know. I've had a fella. I had the best bloke. I had the best bloke. It's really hard to find anyone like Alan McEwan. He's hilarious, Louis. You have no idea. My husband was the best bloke.

He was a grown-up. A lot of you blokes, you're not grown-ups. You know, and most blokes, they're just so neurotic and they're not as great as women. But he was great because... He was just for me. He was just, I'm not, you know, I'm not a coquette. I can't charm people and stuff.

He was just great for me. You meet that person in your life. You know, I've had my moment. I am elevated by solitude. I cannot tell you how much i like being on my own it's like terrible i just really enjoy it thank god i mean you know i've been a widow for 10 years now louie i mean it's like imagine me going on a dating service the only people that put my age women in their uh profiles would be 117. That's my theory. You guys, you always go younger.

You're not out there dating? No, please. What? No, I don't think so. Why not? What? Where am I going to go? What, you're going to go to a nightclub and meet someone in elasticated waist jeans?

It's a whole new world out there. If I can find someone like Thierry Henry. You're only 10 years older than me and I'm a young man. It's not that funny. You're funny. If it happened again, I'd be lovely. I'm just not, you know. It has to be a footballer. Let's see.

Wouldn't it be great? It has to be a footballer. I like football. I like musicians. So anyone who plays lead guitar. Seriously? Yeah. Well, what can you do?

Birds like musicians. I like funny blokes really yeah I want someone that gets up every day and takes charge and goes this is going to be great

positive yeah a grown up so he's grown up takes charge plays lead guitar and plays football to a very high standard

very funny and funny yeah funny fit and a big what guitar yeah and funny yeah funny fit and a big what? guitar yeah that was funny

it sort of worked and I went with it we were both thinking Willie and we didn't say it I'm going to go. Hi, me again, Louis Theroux. Just to remind you, you're listening to the Louis Theroux podcast. And now back to my conversation with Tracy Allman. Okay, I'm feeling a leaving, ending energy.

But before we do that, why did you come back to London? And when did that happen? That happened what? When Alan died. Ten years ago? Yeah, Alan died ten years ago. Cancer. Prostate cancer.

Yeah, prostate cancer. He'd had it for years and years and years. Yeah, and his treatment was in Los Angeles. I didn't want to be a widow in L.A., live up a hillside. Why? It's easier to, it was much more fun to be in England and move around and talk to people on the street. You're more in the swim of the activity.

Oh, yeah, you have to, like, yeah. And I love LA and it was all that, but I just, no, it was time to be near my daughter, loves living here, and she had a baby and I'm near the grandsons. It's great to, yeah, you can't beat it. So, and just walking around, you know, London was just fantastic, you know. And people would suddenly say to me on the show

who chose you on I go what would she be doing on the district line at 2.30 in the afternoon with a Sainsbury's bag of course not do you say that

just to get them off your back sometimes do you I've been guilty of saying I wish aren't you a bloke I get it yesterday aren't you a bloke

off the telly oh I wish yeah doing that yeah two words and the conversation's over. Yeah. But no one recognizes me or they do. They're very kind to me and just like, oh, yeah, you're mad like my sister.

Oh, thank you. So, no, it was. You bump into people in London. You don't really bump into people in L.A. very much. No, it was a different time and, yeah. I go back and I work on Curb Your Enthusiasm with Larry David, where I used to, that's the area I used to live in. And I love doing that show.

Oh my God, it's been such fun to go and do that for a couple of years. Is he fun to work with? Oh, he's a good bloke. He's secretly a really nice man. Yeah, I believe it. He's great. I've really loved working with him and Susie Essman and Richard Lewis. And so that's been great fun and that's the way I would like to work

I'd love to do something like a show like that just, I don't know, maybe in London or New York but just where you make everything up say all the things that you want to say I love TV I'm a TV person I've never made a successful film really you don't need to see me bigger than a television size

big screen you've never made a successful film, really. You don't need to see me bigger than a television size. Big screen. You've been in a very critically highly regarded Woody Allen film. Yeah, I did a couple of films with Woody. I did Small Time Crooks and I did Bullets Over Broadway. I love working Woody. You played his wife. Yeah, yeah.

You have never felt an obligation to speak out on the Woody subject? Not my business. None of my business. What do I know? I knew him in a professional capacity and I had the most wonderful time and all that family stuff and everything. I'm not sure what's going on, but it's not for me to comment. There seemed like a time when actors who worked with him were kind of queuing up to say,

I wish I'd never made a film with him. No, really. Well, that's what they want to do. It's not what I want to do. All right. And then you also worked on... What are you laughing for? Well, because I'm trying to figure out how...

Yeah, you're trying to end this big. How can we end this big? I think we sing or something. You also starred in one of the biggest movies... Why don't we sing They Don't Know? You also starred in... Get the lyrics on your little computer there. You're tip-tap-tapping away.

You also starred in one of the biggest movie flops of all time. What was that one? I'll Do Anything. There have been tons of those. I'll Do Anything. Oh, yeah. I didn't star in it. I'd have bitten it.

James L. Brooks. But they took all the songs out. It was a musical. I got to meet Prince, though. He wrote the music for it. Yeah, he gave him all these songs, and none of the songs worked. I don't know. It was like, but people in it couldn't sing. Set it up for us. Set wrote the music for it. Yeah, he gave him all these songs and none of the songs worked. I don't know. It was like, but people in it could sing.

Set it up for us. Set it up for the audience. Coming off the back of two huge hits, James Earl Brooks, he made Terms of Endearment and the equally brilliant Broadcast News. He wants to do a musical because he used to love all the songs we did. I'll do a musical. It's about life in Hollywood for a jobbing actor, the heroism, the daily struggle of a jobbing actor.

And you get Nick Nolte to star, who was hilarious. He's brilliant. But he can't sing. He had this song called, Be my mirror, be like me. And then Nick's going, Be my mirror, be like me. But, you know, what are you going to do?

You're well-intentioned. Polly Platt was our producer. You know, James gives it everything. Wow, man, we're going to do you're well intentioned Polly Platt was our producer we you know James gives it everything wow man we're going to do this man and then things don't work well you know

you just you know I don't know they had a viewing some people want to put the songs back in I had a good song I'd like to hear it with the songs in

I went to see it when it came out I lived in New York at the time and I was a James L. Brooks fan and I thought the movie was pretty good. Nick Nolte is a terrific actor.

Oh, Nick is fabulous. And then I was reading up on this and it was said that they had a screening and it was so bad. It was that the people were, first they were enjoying it, then they were not enjoying it. Then they were laughing at how bad it was. And then they were leaving the testing theater on the lot over there in LA. And then James L. Brooks said it was the worst experience of his entire life. Oh, darling. And I think it would have been crushing.

But a strange decision to take all that. How bad could it have been with the songs? I know. I never saw them. I mean, I just saw... Did it feel all right when you were made? I saw Julie had a song and I got to meet Prince, you know. What was he like?

He was cool. I he like? he was cool I mean just very quiet yeah and you know he knew my song They Don't Know and just that he knew

I was just an amazing fan come on it's a good song it was a top ten hit in America people always remember sorry I sounded surprised that was rude

yeah of course he knew it was a big hit and actually sort of he likes that kind of bubblegum girl group. Maybe I'm not doing it justice. No, he knew a good song.

He wrote Manic Monday, right? Yeah, he did. For the Bangles, wasn't it? Yeah, the Bangles. He was an R&B and soul legend, but also a creator of sugary pop of the highest order. I got to see him in a small club in East Berlin when I did the MTV Awards in the 90s and I was with Michael Hutchence, Jean-Paul Gaultier and George Michael. I was with them in a limo and we went to this weird little club in East Berlin.

The wall had just come down. And they made me jump over a fence to get in because even that group couldn't get in. And we got into this club and there was literally 47 people and we watched Prince and Mighty his girlfriend at the time and later wife perform and it was just amazing

I just thought wow I'm so so lucky to be here what a cool moment what a cool moment that's incredible I think that's where we're going to leave Tracy watching Prince with a veritable I think that's where we're going to leave Tracy I've had some laughs, I've had some moments Prince

with a veritable constellation of incredible talents nice to have all those amazing memories I know, I was in that group that night I'm a girl from Hackbridge I used to live next to a fish and chip shop and a sewer works interesting smell combination

they're trying to imagine that. Oh, goodness, yeah. Sort of like, alternatively like... It was, it was bloody awful. Deep fat frying plus fecal overtones. It really was. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. Oh, I've had a nice time.

I mean, it's, yeah, I really wanted to meet you. I think you're a good bloke. I think you're a BGB. You're a bloody good bloke. You're interesting. And I, you know, I don't want to talk about myself,

but my kids wanted me to talk to you and I'm glad I have. so i hope you enjoyed that this is me back on my own it was a real pleasure to speak to tracy and also to revisit and visit in some cases for the first time, her vast body of work. We'll link to the clips we spoke about in the show notes. In particular, I'd like to shout out the TV series Mrs. America about Phyllis Schlafly, played by Cate Blanchett. It's about the conservative activist and the early days of feminism. It's an ensemble, but Tracy's in it playing Betty Friedan. And yeah, it's really good. I think it's on iPlayer. What I got from Tracy was,

well, she's just really funny, isn't she? And there's nothing quite like being in the room with someone who's effortlessly amusing. I really loved her impression of her grandson, amusing. I really loved her impression of her grandson, Elijah, saying, I don't think you've got the expertise. That made me giggle. And I see, I mean, I also like, I mean, I'm a horrible person. So I quite liked sort of bringing up quite dark things in an inappropriately lighthearted way. Should I say that? And when I said, do I see sadness sadness in you i think i do see some sadness in her well of course because she lost the love of her life and thierry henry is out there but perhaps not available um she's a born entertainer cliche alert and know, she was basically driving the conversational bus at the beginning, which I enjoy. I enjoy being driven for a change. And then also kind of turning the tables, you know,

nothing. That's my favorite thing is having the tables turned on me. The reins being kind of fought over. It's like, is it Hunt for Red October where there's two submarine captains and one of them says, I'm the captain. Then the other one's like, I don't know, I'm the captain. You remember that? That was a good movie. So we both were captains of the submarine, kind of fight, not fighting over the controls, but enjoyably maybe sort of roughhousing over the controls. And she brought up Jimmy Savile and that's not funny. And the Nick Nolte impression, be my mirror, be my girl. Nick Nolte is probably listening. And so Nick, I think you'll appreciate it was done with love and perhaps perhaps you know accuracy i don't know will the world ever get to hear nick nolte singing be my mirror i don't know strange for prince aficionados those

songs are i think i said it in the chat did i they're on youtube you can listen to them we mentioned the steve coogan drama bbc'sckoning, in which Coogan plays Jimmy Savile. I've watched three episodes of that as I record. And Steve's amazing in it. And actually, you know, if you have the stomach for that kind of thing, it's done with extraordinary, I would say, kind of verisimilitude. The accuracy, the work they've put into. Here's flipping Penthouse Flat in Roundhay, where I went a number of times while filming and afterwards. For more on that, read my book, Got to Get Through This, five chapters about Jimmy Savile. But it was extraordinary. Some person had studied pictures and film of the flat and reproduced it.

I'm still trying to figure out the comment, you'd be so easy to animate. That made me laugh when I listened to it back. What does that mean? It's such a baffling remark. It feels, it's like a compliment that you could take as an insult. I'm going to assume, not an insult, Tracy would never insult me. I like her too much what i'm trying to say is i wouldn't take it as an insult i think it was meant nicely and you know who wants to be difficult to animate that's not something to aspire to maybe it means i'm expressive i wish i could be animated on the simpsons i could die happy that would be the last thing i don't need oscars and grammys and oliviers but to be on the simps. I've got a friend who writes for The Simpsons.

So, Tim, if you're listening, consider this me inviting myself onto the show. I'm ready. I think that might be it. Oh, yes. Credits. Produced by Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Maan Al-Yaziri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows.

The music in the series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.