The Louis Theroux Podcast - S3 EP1: Mia Khalifa on living with autism, receiving death threats and her experience of the adult film industry

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

For the first episode of the new series, Louis sits down with influencer, fashion icon and former adult film performer, Mia Khalifa. Joining Louis in the studio, Mia discusses living with autism, receiving death threats for her outspoken views, and her experience of the adult film world. Warnings: Strong language, adult content and discussions of a sexual nature. Links/Attachments: ‘What is Anime? Everything You Need to know’ - NFI https://www.nfi.edu/what-is-anime/  Louis Theroux: Extreme Love, Episode 1: Autism – BBC (UK only) https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01gk4xc  Louis Theroux: Selling Sex – BBC (UK only) https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000dbcf  Louis Theroux: Dark States, Series 1 Episode 2: Trafficking Sex – BBC (UK only) https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b099wspk Louis Theroux Specials: Twilight of the Porn Stars – BBC (UK only) https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j84qt/louis-theroux-specials-twilight-of-the-porn-stars  ‘Beirut – beautiful and scarred – beckons Anthony Bourdain again’ - CNN https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/beirut-bourdain-parts-unknown/index.html  Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown, S05 E08: Beirut – Banijay Documentaries (CNN production) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LptZ9E4ZG4  Anthony Bourdain: No Reservations, S02 E08: Beirut – Discovery (Discovery+ - Amazon Prime) https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0919V38G1/ref=atv_dp_season_select_s2  Capernaum (2018), directed by Nadine Labaki – Trailer via YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULUo0048xZE What does the term ‘incel’ mean? - CNN https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/16/us/incel-involuntary-celibate-explained-cec/index.html The Joe Rogan Experience, E1648: Abby Martin - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toBL3_nWpJU  Call Her Daddy – This is Mia Khalifa (Full Interview) - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlaEaN2sm14  ‘What’s a Pick-Me Girl? Here’s What You Need to Know’ - Cosmopolitan https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a42134933/what-is-a-pick-me-girl-definition/  The Girlfriend Experience (2009), directed by Steven Soderbergh – YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euwBlSZVrtQ  Entourage, Season 7 – HBO (Sky Comedy - Now TV) https://www.nowtv.com/gb/watch/home/asset/entourage/iYEQZ2uDbPiuTXWJFoHV9m?DCMP=WA  Credits: Producer: Millie Chu  Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill Production Manager: Francesca Bassett  Music: Miguel D’Oliveira  Audio Mixer: Tom Guest Video Mixer: Scott Edwards  Show notes compiled by Sally McLennan Executive Producer: Arron Fellows     A Mindhouse Production for Spotify  www.mindhouse.co.uk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1212 here we are I'm back. Hi I'm Louis Theroux and you are listening to and maybe even watching because we are fully visualised the Louis Theroux podcast and you can see that I'm reading from a piece of paper all my secrets are being betrayed. Ugh never mind. To kick off the series, I spoke to influencer, businesswoman and former adult film performer Mia Khalifa, though her real name is Sarah Jo. Sarah Jo grew up in Lebanon, raised in what she's described as a conservative Catholic home, and moved to Washington DC when she was eight years old. She arrived in the public arena after starring in a number of adult films at the age of 21. Though she was

only in the industry for three months, she became Pornhub's most viewed performer and is now one of OnlyFans highest earners in the world. However, her relationship with the world of porn is complicated and we discussed that in the chat. She became notorious after wearing a hijab in a porn scene in 2014. It was a threesome. Not sure if that's a key detail. There was a huge amount of backlash. There were rumours of a fatwa against her. There were obviously a lot of people who were offended and death threats followed. Since then she's remained a controversial figure, most recently through her support, her very vocal support of Palestine online.

She now spends her time as an influencer and has a jewellery brand called the Shaytan. And we met once before, very briefly, we discussed that a little bit. It was at a fashion show, a lot of tequila was involved. This interview took place in June 2024. Mia was running late, there was bad traffic, she was coming from Kent, and then there was a built-in jeopardy because it turned out the studio we were in had been booked. By the rest is politics. Those bastards. Anyway, inevitably we got kicked out halfway through and moved into a different studio, all of which we might have been able to hide if this wasn't also a visualised podcast, but the video betrays us and you will see all of that disruption in all its

glory. What else do I need to say? There is strong language and surprise surprise adult themes. All of that is coming next, but first this. There she is. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? Nice to see you. Nice to see you too.

Thank you for waiting. Well, of course. It sounds like you had a bit of a nightmare getting here. It wasn't a nightmare. It was just city traffic Well, it's a nice hours is crazy though. Yeah, an hour and a half to drive although I would find you expect and you were coming from Where were you? Favisham? Yeah Have you been no, but it's near it's North Kent isn't it? It's yeah, it's not far from

Herne Bay Exactly in Whitstable and Margate. It's a nice part of the world. I love it. It's my favorite place in England. So this is a Louis Theroux podcast first because we have Jeopardy built in, which is that now we're a little bit behind and I'm definitely not putting that on the traffic, obviously not on you. And so we're going to potentially get kicked out of this studio at 12 because the former

King of Denmark is coming in. Oh my gosh. Right? A former king? Yeah. It's like the plot of a play or something. The former king, I know. That's a very 2024 issue.

Ah, yeah, we need the podcast studio because a former king is coming. Exactly. And also the idea of an ex-king I like as well, because you would think once a king, always a king. But I guess in a progressive place like Denmark, they call it former. I have had enough of being king, now I'm ready for someone else to be king. That was my Danish accent. It's actually pretty good. Was it? How are you doing? I'm good. I'm really good. Thank you for joining. Of course. Thank you for having me. This is a big deal for me because, well, for

many, all my guests, all my guests are a big deal and you're no exception. Your stats, I'm jumping straight in. We're on the clock here. No, I get it. Let's go. I'm going straight. Normally I amble around. I'm going to have to try and be more focused. Your stats are amazing. These might be out of date. You can correct me if I'm wrong. On Instagram, you have 27 million followers. Does that sound about right? That sounds around right. TikTok, 37.8 million. Just hit 38 two days ago actually.

Let's say 38. 38 million. Twitter, 6.2 million followers, including Greta Thunberg. I mean that's good company to be in. I know. I mean, that's good company. You were ranked the number one, well, here we are. Now we've landed on something more controversial, although maybe not mere with the number one ranked performer on Pornhub in December 2014. That's going back. Let's stay in the present. On OnlyFans, according to this, you were the fourth, no, fifth, the fifth highest earning, what would be the term, performer, influencer on OnlyFans, earning $6.5 million per month.

Oh, that's very wrong. That sounds high. That is very wrong. I think that is probably from a message board rather than something official. Yeah, that does sound, I mean, that would be like 70 million a year just on OnlyFans. That sounds, you can't trust everything you pick up on the internet. No. But what keeps you busy like these days?

What is your main kind of source of occupation, not just financially but time wise as well? My jewelry line, Chetan. That is the that takes up the most time, the most mental bandwidth. My OnlyFans is essentially just a platform for me to share more, not necessarily, I don't, it's not nudity, it's not performing, it's not anything, it's just a platform that I use similar to how I used to use Patreon. But I don't like the user interface of Patreon. So OnlyFans does not take up any time at all. It is really just a place where I post content that I also post on Twitter, just more of it. But Shaytan is my baby.

That takes up the most time. That's the only reason I'm ever in Europe. And anything that happens around that, you know, that has to do with fashion or anything like that, is because I'm already here for Chetan. You know, there's so much to talk about with you. You've got, you know, you've had this incredible, multivaried career, like involving different aspects of life. And I was trying to think about what it is that, and also, you know, I'm trying not to ignore the elephant in the room, which is that you first came on many people's radar through sex work. And that was a mixed blessing for you, if I can call

it. I mean, how is that, would that be an appropriate term? Like there were aspects of that that you found troubling and that were, I would say, traumatizing. Is that fair? Yeah. At the same time, increasingly, I feel that you are owning it as part of your story. Well, I have to. It is a part of my life. But it's not necessarily something that I would ever lead with because it is the smallest blip of anything I've ever done in my life. But it's not necessarily something that I would ever lead with because it is the smallest blip of anything I've ever done in my life. And I also, the last thing I ever want to do is put in the minds of any young women that you could be where I am if you make those

choices as well, because that's not the case. I'm very much an outlier and the sex work industry is predatory and exploitive and a terrible thing to enter as a first option. So no, it's definitely not a blessing at all. I would never categorize it as that because that is a really dangerous thing to kind of push. I'm glad you clarified that because it's a tricky subject to discuss because one doesn't want to stigmatize the people who participate in it. I think there's a lot of hypocrisy that goes with that. It's one of the biggest industries in the world. It's the oldest industry in the world.

It's probably the oldest and it's something that's consumed by billions. I wouldn't say not even millions, maybe billions. No, it is the biggest industry in the world. Sex trafficking, human trafficking, anything that revolves around that falls in that category and it's the biggest industry in the world. And there's a hypocrisy around saying that, oh, if you're involved in that, you are participating in something immoral or toxic or wrong. But at the same time, you know, as you say, I think you have to accept that because of the shame associated with it, it's often under policed, under investigated. It's almost as though it operates in the shadows. And so people don't want to look too hard at how the work takes place.

No, because then they would find a mirror behind the curtain. They would have to look at themselves and see how they are contributing to it with the things that they consume or the things that they perpetuate or support. I know that the majority of women in the sex work industry are women of color and those are the most that's the most overlooked demographic in the Whole world so there is no one policing it because there's no one policing for their for their betterment outside of sex work So, of course, that's going to be even more overlooked Let's put that to one side for a second then Because what I was going to get to was the idea that what I see in you when I look at your content, you're very active on Instagram and TikTok and also Twitter.

In fact, I'm impressed by your productiveness. Like you actually put out a lot of sort of viral content. Like you have a knack for, what I'm trying to say is that you are fluent in the internet. And I see in you what I see almost above anything is an ability to create impact online, and that you're a talented influencer, right? Which I know sounds maybe that sounds weird to an older audience, but that's sort of the performance space of our time, isn't it? Yeah. And just to follow up from that, because also seeing you, and I don't want to put this the

wrong way, like I identify as a bit of a nerd, and I see certain nerd-like qualities in you. The autism. Right, okay. So talk about that. No, I feel like I've always had a knack for the internet. I mean, I'm a kid who grew up playing World of Warcraft and using dial-up internet and fixing the computer at home when it broke. Like that was my job because I was of that generation.

So I think that I've always had a knack for what I like to consume online, which in turn influenced how I like to be online. And the way I like to be is just to find my little nooks and crannies. And that is usually where I find my home in nerdy niches. I'm a huge comic fan, I'm a huge Batman fan, I'm a huge... I animate everything. So I feel like I have, even if it's not public, I feel like I have a home in every corner of the internet and that might be a reason why I feel like I get it a little bit more than most.

I feel like everyone my age is similar. We all came up in that internet era. We remember when Twitter became a site. We remember when all of these things happened. So we have a leg up on it, because we were there from, honestly, beta. What does beta mean? Like when it was still testing and you had to have a link sent to you and that link could

only be sent to 10 people and it was a really small site. With Twitter specifically? With Twitter with I was... Which was what Twitter started in, was it 2007? Yeah. Excuse me. Yeah, 2007, 2008. I was in high school. You would have been 14. You were born in 93. Yeah. Were you joking when you said that you are autistic or have autism? No,

very much not joking. Really? Not joking at all. I like to think I've done some research and that did not come up in my medical diagnosis.'t come up on Google I got to fix that right how long has that been the I mean I guess you've been autistic what is it better say autistic or have autism do we do we know sometimes it is preference um I don't know I don't know no I don't yeah doesn't matter but since I was in since I was in high school I got diagnosed with ADHD in the seventh grade and then OCD and autism in high school um and yeah I mean I was I was diagnosed with ADHD in the seventh grade and then OCD and autism in high school. And yeah, I mean, I was I was medicated for ADHD my entire schooling and childhood. But the the autism you just got to run with. What does that mean for you having autism?

Ticks, pattern recognition, ticks, pattern recognition, really specific and strong special interests that I become obsessive with and then the OCD kicks in and that kind of snowballs and creates things that my therapist has to deal with more than... I try not to let it affect the people around me, but life is also about learning, and that's why I will never stop going to therapy, because there's no medication for it, but there is a process towards self-awareness and self-correction. I did a documentary a while ago about autism, although it was people who were deeper into the spectrum and had significant behaviour,

some were non-verbal. And part of it as well was struggling to identify emotions facially. Does that resonate with you at all? No, but for me, it's more so recognising and not being able to stop myself, like knowing that what I'm about to say is offensive and is uncouth and not being able to stop myself at all. Even if my brain says that is probably what you should not say, it's like a compulsion. Mason- Really? Kiernan- Yeah, but it's not in the same way that… Mason- Which goes great with social media.

Kiernan- Yeah, exactly. Mason- What a great combination. Kiernan- Exactly. Great with social media. Yeah, exactly. What a great combination. Exactly. But go on, talk about that then. Is that something that you're happy about or it's just something that is? It's just something that is.

I love it. I love my special interests. I love being able to get home and unmask and be able to have my physical and mental ticks more freely. But no, I mean, I think anyone who is on the spectrum is also able to mask really, really, really well to be able to be a functioning member of society. But then it kind of creeps out sometimes, usually on Twitter. Over the years, you've got into hot water a few different times, I would say.

And there's something kind of beautiful about that. I agree. I very much agree. In a risk averse society, right, in a world where people are shamed into keeping quiet, you've gone in the other direction. And I'm sure paid the cost at times, definitely. There's senses in which you've been cancelled, kind of. You know, it's not a great term, but I'll use it, because it felt like the sex worker community got annoyed with you and said she's speaking for sex work, but she was only in the industry three months. Then you fell afoul of Muslims. You obviously did a highly controversial video way back

and got death threats pointed your way. And then more recently with tweets about the Middle East. Do you approach all of those controversies with composure? To what extent does all of that affect your equilibrium? I think that it varies situation by situation. I would say the first two, I did not let it affect me that much. I think that people needed someone to blame and instead of blaming the production company and the way that things are presented to the performers and how they have absolutely no say in it whatsoever and how they don't know what they're doing until they show up. I think that all of the hate being targeted towards me is simply just one of those ways of life. I'm not the first person to be the scapegoat for something that they didn't do, they didn't think of and do intentionally. So that I just have to let roll off of me.

What I feel bad for is all of the Arab women who didn't want to be sexualized, who were then compared to me. That's what hurts me more. It's not the people who are sending me death threats. Fuck them. I couldn't care less about them. It's more so the women who look like me just because of the color of their skin or the color of their hair or the fact that they have terrible vision being sexualized for no reason other than existing and looking like me. But the latter one, the everything that happened in October, I regret nothing. That affected me a lot more

because those death threats became very real, became very personal, like showing up at my house, me having to leave my house, me having to switch cars for a couple months, me having to have my windows tinted because I'm at a red light in Miami and someone comes up and starts banging on my windows and spitting at my car. Like that, those, that one was a little bit different, but I also don't regret that.

That's not what happened to me isn't the worst thing that happened to someone who was standing up for Palestine. So I also just roll with it and have no regrets. I would, I stand by every single thing I said. Wow. So there's a lot to pick up on. So the first thing that struck me was that, you know, the death you said, what worried you or what bothered you was the idea that Arab women might be sexualized because of imagery or resemblance to you, but the death threats didn't worry you. That's kind of extraordinary. Well, they worried me on like a reason. I'm not insane. They worried me enough to like,

when someone is sending you a screenshot of your house on Google Maps, you got to leave your house. But I'm also, that's not the biggest worry of mine. That's something that, you know, you fix that, you move on, you move literally, you fix that. The young women who are feeling sexually unsafe because of the way men are looking at them, that's not something that I can fix. And those usually aren't the women who are blaming me. Those are usually the women who have more compassion for me. And that in turn women who have more compassion for me and that in turn makes it feel so much worse. Was an actual fat toire issued against you?

I don't know about official, but I've spoken to a lot of security agencies, some of them here in the UK, a lot of the people who work for them or own these companies spent a lot of time in the Middle East. And you. And their recommendation is that you don't need to go there. Don't go there, maybe. I mean, just going to Marrakesh two years ago was a really scary experience. And it wasn't because of the city of Marrakesh. It was at the airport. It was at the airport being followed to the gate, having my passport taken,

having someone take a photo of it with their iPhone. That's what makes you feel uncomfortable, feeling like you are not on a soil that has an extradition treaty, not that the United States would give a fuck about me because I think I talk more shit about them than I do the politicians in the Middle East. But that's when it gets a little dicey and scary. So you, this happened in Marrakesh airport when you arrived in Morocco? When I was leaving actually. When you were leaving?

Yeah. So what was that all about? I don't know they recognized me and I don't know. They could hate me, they could be huge fans of me, it could be somewhere in the middle. Either way no one should be taking your passport from you when you're at the gate waiting to board and take a picture of it with their iPhones and have a gaggle of other security guards behind them talking to each other. Like that it was just... So they could have been. I'm not trying to make light of it. It's possible they were or imagined themselves to be fans.

Yes, but to exercise your power like that, to take someone's passport and take a photo of it, a government document that important, that's fucking scary. That's not that's somewhere I will not be going back to. Loved Morocco though. It's beautiful. It's so beautiful. Honestly, Marrakesh is amazing. If anything bad had happened, that would have been a great place to go. Being confined to Marrakesh would actually, I mean... Exactly. Oh no, Tajin again for the eighth day in a row. Exactly. They've got nice wine there as well. Yeah. And what about your birth country of Lebanon? Yeah, I still wouldn't feel comfortable going there either.

I mean, it's a Middle Eastern country. They all have similar mindsets. I would say Lebanon is a lot more westernized because of the French colonization. So it's a little bit more mentally. I mean, it's the plastic surgery capital of the Middle East. We love our nose jobs. We love our Louboutins. We love our like, yeah, it's very progressive, but it's also a little tumultuous for me to go. So it's not the best idea. I'm not going, I have no interest in instigating anything. M. Sharif is right here at Knightsbridge. I can get Lebanese food anywhere. I'm fine. I'm not going to push the boundaries with my life or my safety

But I think you have a quite a deep connection with Lebanese culture and Lebanese heritage, of course I mean, yeah, I'm that's home That's very much like if I have kids one day, I will be sending them there every summer even if I can't go with them If the risk of asking a naive question, what would stop you from going there yourself? The guarantee of 100% safety, the same way I feel traveling to anywhere, traveling anywhere else in the world. Well, you'll find traveling to the UK, right? And parts of Europe. Is it something about, is it you think the stakes are higher in Lebanon because your profile is higher and so you could get recognized?

I think that they take politics very seriously there. And I am extremely vocal with my criticism of Lebanese politicians and the government. And they take that very seriously. So you never know who you're talking to, who is checking your passport, who is you never know who you have pissed off. Who I have pissed off, not you. I mean, I piss people off increasingly. The former King of Denmark is about to be pissed off at you. He will be if we keep him waiting.

So far we're on time. We were talking about, we're going to scroll back, if people have been paying close attention, we were talking about you being kind of, whether cancelled or running into controversy in different spheres. We mentioned the first two pissing off aspects of the Islamic community, pissing off aspects of the sex worker community, and the last one was common. And don't forget the Zionists. And that's the one I was going to come on to. Love pissing off aspects of the Islamic community, pissing off aspects of the sex worker community. And the last one was... And don't forget the Zionists.

And that's the one I was going to come on to. Love pissing them off. I wonder if like the fact that you're autistic... So it's really striking because we mentioned Greta Thunberg earlier who's autistic and that there's a certain kind of activist advocate who's on the autistic spectrum and it's almost like along with the other qualities it gives people a certain freedom is it freedom it's freedom it's so freeing to not give a fuck it's so freeing to be able to say how you feel and what's on your mind and not be scared of what other

people are going to think because that that's something that i have never well i'm not going to say never because i did have very low self-esteem at one point and that makes you care about what people think, but it's also more of a reflection of how you see yourself and your relationship with shame. So at the end of the day, I guess it's not, but it is very freeing to not care, to not care about consequences, consequences that don't matter, consequences of people who are trying to control you and push their narrative. Actual consequences? Oh, I care a lot about, I follow rules, I follow laws, I will rat someone out.

If you pull out cocaine in front of me at a party, I will scream at the top of my lungs. That I'm very like... What will you scream? Give me some of that good stuff. No, I'm calling the police! What will you scream? Give me some of that good stuff. No, I'm calling the police. Chop me out a fat one? No, they pull out weed on the other hand. We can cut this out or not maybe,

but actually we've met once before at Skepta's fashion party. Yes, yes we did. And do you remember what happened? Am I allowed to say? Oh my gosh, it was the greatest moment of my life. I had the honor of sharing a joint with you, not in that moment, but sharing a pre-rolled joint.

You can't prove that I smoked anything. No, I can't prove it. I can't prove it. But you very graciously took it from me the same way that you would take food presented to you at an in-laws house. I definitely did. I accepted it with gratitude. That made my entire trip. Oh, that's nice to hear. take food presented to you at an in-laws house. I definitely did. I accepted it with gratitude.

That made my entire trip. Oh, that's nice to hear. That was an iconic moment. I took it home, and what happened thereafter will remain in the mists of time. I'd had a lot of margaritas at that point. They did. They were very strong.

They threw a great party. It was good. Yeah. Can we, I feel awkward. Because I know there's much more to your career than, you know, it was three months in doing adult films. You made 11 films, I think. I've made, you know, there's not that many more than me in the sense I've made three documentaries in that world.

Are you okay talking about it? Can you talk about how you got into it? I mean, who doesn't have a slutty phase when they're in when they're 2021? Who doesn't go through that? What young woman doesn't go through that? I mean, mine just happened to be in the public eye. I made really bad decisions because I had really bad influences around me, specifically with the person that I was dating at the time. That's how I came into it. And once I realized that this person is wrong for me, I realized that all of this is not me and very wrong for me.

So it was more so just me realizing that this is not a good human being for me. So it was more so just me realizing that this is not a good human being for me. I was in a relationship with a 24 year old when I was 16 and my keenness to make them happy and do what they wanted is why I was in the industry and why I was in it for such a short amount of time. I left the industry and I left them at the same exact time, the same day, basically. It was just a slutty phase. It was just a phase with a bad relationship. And unfortunately, it's there for the world to see, but it's also a great learning experience. It's not something that I see as something that catapulted me.

For two years afterwards, I tried to put it all behind me and work in an office. I worked at a construction firm. I worked as a paralegal. I really tried to make it work. And when I realized that I am a disruption to the office simply by existing, the people coming in are recognizing me, they're making comments to the partners, that I'm becoming a distraction and that makes me feel uncomfortable in that setting. That's when I decided to leave where I was living, move to Austin, create a new Instagram account, become an influencer.

I started writing a sports column. I started doing everything I could to cement myself in the world of the internet, because I've always been a person of the internet. I grew up on the Internet. So I felt like influencing was a natural segue for me. And it has been. It's been great. It's been an uphill battle.

I would say that once I'm in the room, people see that I actually do belong there. Their judgment goes out the window once they actually meet me. And I think that the last three, four years has been the toughest part. It's been really about proving myself because it was easy. It was coasting. It was just me doing podcasts here and there, me doing random gigs here and there, but now I'm building a career for the rest of my life. And

this has been the most difficult, but the most rewarding. Mason Hickman Difficult in what way? Why is it more difficult now? Anna Chastain More people to answer to, more people to convince. I lived a very, very low key life before. But that life also came with the anxiety in the back of your head of, okay, but what you know what tomorrow looks like, you know what next week looks like, what does the next five years look like? What are you going to be doing then? And obviously the answer was to, I need to create something.

I need to do something tangible. I need to put my creativity to use because I am a very, very creative person. I have a deep affinity for film and culture and art and music and everything. And jewelry specifically. I've always loved jewelry at like a fundamental level in the way it's created and the meaning behind it, in the way that it's culturally important. To so many countries from India to the Middle East,

like that is a part of our culture. It's a really deep part of our culture. It's a really deep part of our culture. It's how we show love. It's how we pass down stories. And that's how Shaytan came to be. Going back, you said you had low self-esteem. And also being 16 and meeting someone who was, you said, 24? Yeah. I mean, I don't want to intrude. so you should be guided by what you can say. But what is being in a toxic relationship say about you? No one enters a toxic relationship if they have high self-esteem, if they have a good outlook on themselves and their life and a good relationship with shame that's been

imposed on them culturally or just from society. People who have those things in check don't get into bad relationships. Why do you think you're, because you made like just 11 scenes or 11 movies. Yeah. Why do you think they were so popular? Because basically you were the most searched performer in the world for a while. I actually have no idea. No clue. Maybe it's the fact that I don't want people to see it that makes them want to see it more.

I think presumably like you don't look, you know, the classic porn or adult performer, they were usually blonde, right? And you were something else, right? I think it was also circumstantial. It was around the same time that Charlie Hebdo was happening and all of these conversations around Me Too were happening and throw in another controversial figure in there that is adjacent to those things. And I think it was circumstantial. Would you say that coming from Lebanon and growing up, you've famously arrived in 2001,

right? Just a few months before the attack on World Trade Center and the 9-11 bombings. That must have had an impact on you. Of course. I mean, I grew up in a part of Maryland that's only 20 minutes from DC. So a lot of the kids at my school had parents that worked at the Pentagon. So we, my school went on lockdown. A lot of the kids weren't allowed to leave. And that was a very, very scary time. Things, things were immediately everywhere in the world things were different, but specifically for our school,

the security measures changed overnight. It was a weird time. They rolled in the TV on those black metal carts and made us watch it. It was crazy. It was really, it was really traumatic. You would have been just eight years old. So you would have known something extraordinary was happening, but not really appreciated quite what it meant.

I'm also used to air raid. I was used to air raids at the time and running from the apartment building down to the basement, to the shelter and hearing the sirens and feeling panic from adults. That was something that I've always been accustomed to and I feel like that's a piece of generational trauma that I will always carry with me and have to have to have to work on so that I don't pass it on.

I don't know it was more like left Lebanon for Lebanon part two. Why can you talk about your family leaving Lebanon? What was behind that? I mean, why does anyone emigrate for a better life? But what I mean is, because I'm much older, you know, I was born in 1970. And what I recall is through the 70s and 80s, this feeling that Beirut was almost like a synonym for war torn. Oh, no, it was a cinnamon for the Paris of the Middle East. Obviously, East and West Beirut and the Civil War had a huge effect on that. But I think that anyone who I mean, I even know British people right now who are like, Oh my God, you live in America. I wish

I could get a visa. I wish I could go live there. What you have health care. Stay here. What are you doing? But America is is the country of capitalism. It's the American dream. There's no limit to what you could accomplish there. And to be honest, I agree with that. As much as I despise the American government and the infrastructure of America and everything that it stands for, I have to admit, the American dream is called that for a reason. But I'm also trying to get at what was happening in in Lebanon, like, and I did a little reading before this to try and get a lot happened in Lebanon. It was a civil war, right?

But it was complicated. Like, can you summarize what it was there? I mean, no, I will not summarize it because I also can't even wrap my head around it. It's so convoluted. There's so many geopolitical aspects to it. It's so fucked up that the Lebanese Christians were working with the Israelis to go against the Palestinians. That's how fucked up it was.

That's how fucked up the mindsets were. It was the phalanges against them. It was bad. It's a lot more than I would care to get into because I don't want to say anything wrong and say something that I don't have right. I honestly know more about the American Civil War than I do about the Lebanese one because that is so confusing. I'd love to go there one day.

I think you should. It's such a beautiful country. It's a nation of only about five or six million people. Yeah. Quite small, mostly surrounded by Syria and a little bit Israel. Yes. It's war-torn at the moment, right? What's going on right now? I mean, the South has, there's always things going on.

Because Hezbollah is in the South. Yeah, and the South is where, is what borders Israel. So there's always things going on, but there's also always positive things going on. Like I just, it is still very much a vacation destination. Like everyone is, everyone's still, we cheers through bombs. That's the Lebanese mindset. I implore anyone who can to watch the two episodes that Anthony Bourdain did on Beirut. The first one when in 2007 he went when the airport got bombed and him and his entire crew got stuck there and then they had to be evacuated about a week later

by US Marines through the ocean into Turkey, like through boats. And it was a very traumatic experience that they kept filming the entire way through. And then he released another episode when he had his show with CNN when he went back to Beirut and he had the same tour guide with him. And it was just a reflection on the resiliency of the Lebanese and his love for the culture and how much he wanted to show people that Lebanon is more than that and that the Lebanese will persevere through anything. Nothing will get us down.

Another beautiful film is Capernaum. Have you seen that? Yes, I have. Directed by Nadine Labarchi? She's an incredible Lebanese director. That one won an Oscar. Yes, it did. Well deserved as well. Extremely well deserved. That film is beautiful. And another one that's... About a homeless child adopting another homeless child who's much younger and basically finding their way around on it, which makes you sound grim, but it's so exquisitely filmed and it's so emotional that it's majestic and powerful. Yeah. What were you going to say? Sorry.

No, I was just going to say that she's incredible. You should check out all of her work. How are you with relationships? I'm a lover girl. I love relationships. I'm so monogamous. Are you? Yeah. Are we going to talk about that? Sure. What are you in a relationship? I am. Yeah. Yeah, I Keep going. I keep going. He's only my therapist. Yeah. And no, I'm in a relationship that I like to keep close to my heart. Good for you. Thank you.

I feel like you're the kind of person who does basically, you probably haven't had many relationships is what I'm thinking. No, I've actually only had a handful. Yeah. Four, Five? Three or four. Do you keep a body count? No.

Do you know what I'm talking about? I do. It's a big thing on the internet right now. Yeah. All I know is mine's probably lower than Gal Gadot's. Shots fired. No, those were her shots that she fired. What did she say?

She was in the IDF. It's a different type of body count. Oh, you made a joke. You made a very dark joke. Let's just sit in that moment for a second. Andrew Tate. Ew. What the fuck? Why is he so big in the culture right now? He is? Isn't he?

No one pays attention to him. All the homies don't fuck with him. I pay no mind to him. Maybe there's many internets. There are plenty. There are a lot of internets. I'm not on that side of the internet. So you're conscious that there's the manosphere, so-called, this community of...

They're speaking to incels. I think you mentioned incels earlier. It seems like that's what you're alluding to, incel behavior, which I'm very thankful that it is not even in my sphere, which is why I kind of stopped. One of my passions is sports, but I have actively distanced myself from anything that has to do with sports because it cultivates a very strong incel community. Yeah. I mean, is incel the right, obviously incel stands for involuntary seller,

but it started out as a, it was supposed to be a positive or at least a sympathetic characterization of people who made many on the autistic spectrum who wanted to have relationships, physical relationships couldn't and didn't because they were awkward. And then it evolved into something more toxic.

Yeah. A self-identified community of, I would say some of them at least were women haters, misogynists. Yeah. What about, I know I'm jumping around a bit, but you know, your internet literate and way more so than I am, like this community of say people like Logan Paul and Jake Paul, you're aware of them? Yeah. And what your face is doing something? It's the autism. What's your face doing? That's the thing. I can never play poker.

You're not a fan? No. Why not? Um, well, where do I begin? Begin at the beginning. Um, well, where do I begin? Begin at the beginning. No, they don't deserve that much of my mental bandwidth. I just simply hate them.

In what way? They're just instigators. I mean, they're annoying. I'm allowed to think people are annoying. They're fucking annoying. People think I'm annoying. Yeah, name it. Listen, we've built you as...

We've just been talking about how you're unafraid of being cancelled or saying exactly what you think. So you should say exactly what you think. No, what I'm trying to do is give them less airtime. Oh, I see. They are so unworthy of me talking about them. They've got enough airtime. And I hope they feel the same way about me.

Do we know how they feel about you? Well, they've tried to get me on their show. Have they? Yeah. And what did you say? I've said no. Why the fuck would I do that? What does that culture represent then, do you think?

It represents a desperate need to be relevant or for clout or to gain an audience that they have. So the people who I see going on there, I don't think less of them. I think that it's a very strategic move. Like I have respect for Wiz Khalifa. I can see why he went on there. He wants to sell his weed to their little fans, which makes sense. The rapper, the talented rapper and weed entrepreneur. Yes, exactly. And that was what he was there to promote, which makes perfect sense. But there's so many things that I know would benefit me greatly, especially financially, that I

have zero interest in. Would you go on Joe Rogan? I used to want to for the longest time, but the more that I've learned, a woman that I respect greatly, Abby Martin, went on Joe Rogan. And her episode is incredible because I feel like she did a great job of showing his audience a point of view that they otherwise would not have been exposed to. And she even changed his mind while she was on his show. What was she speaking about?

She was speaking about her time in Gaza and the segregation of the West Bank. And she showed him firsthand what she has seen and what people are going through and that is something that I really admire her going on a podcast to teach something but No, I I think that I think that the circumstances would have to be very Unique about what the subject matter is for me to go on Joe Rogan you What do you okay? I'm trying to say this in not a leading way. You went on Call Her Daddy. Yes.

I see overlap between that and the kind of Jake Paul. I do too. I do too. That was something that I told Alex was a huge worry of mine before I went on the show. I think Barstool is very Logan, Paul and those people adjacent. Barstool Sports is the podcast company that produces... It used to produce it and I expressed my worry to her and she also was very vulnerable in expressing... It was one of her first handful of episodes doing it by herself. And she came over to my house, we hung out the night before and she also expressed to me what her goals were and what she wants out of her career and how she wants to pivot away from Barstool and

her point of view and I realized that we have a lot of Similarities and I really I love her. I trusted her. I admire her. I think she's a great interviewer Granted I don't necessarily agree with... Well, it's not that I don't agree with it. It's just not my kind of humor. It's not what I would want to listen to. She is for a certain audience, which is for sorority girls, or was at the time. What she has done since and what she has done now is like unbelievable.

The people that she's been able to get on her show, the vulnerability that she's able to get out of the person she's interviewing is really admirable. And that's the reason I went on the show because we saw eye to eye in what we should talk about and what the show is. I don't completely understand the sexual politics. That's okay. That's where my issue is. I don't completely understand the sexual politics. That's okay. That's where my issue is. I don't either.

It's something that makes me uncomfortable. I don't understand this idea of going on and on about blow jobs. But it's salacious and it gets her views. I'm going to be an athlete in the bedroom for my man. If you're not, then look out because someone else will be. Oh, I hate that. I hate that mindset. I hate that rhetoric. It's gross. It's cringy. It's very... It's almost pick-me-adjacent. It is pick-me. It's very pick-me behavior.

I like that phrase. Did you just come up with that? No, I absolutely did not come up with it. I think it's a psychological term. Is it? What does it mean? It means a girl who is trying to put herself so far ahead and to be so different from all other girls that she gets picked by the guys. Like a girl who says, I don't hang out with other girls. They're just so much drama. I love my guy friends.

We just drink beers. Oh my God, you're drinking Cosmopolitan? No, I like my pint. I'll stick with this. That's a pick-me-girl. Got you. Because I was thinking about how... Is that the King of Denmark? Oh Jesus. Is the King here? Should we move to the other one? What do we do? We just walk over and then we just pretend we pick up without a beat? The mic sounds different,

the studio's different. They can do amazing things in post. Where is the King of Denmark? Oh my god. Someone said King, didn't they? You! He was never the King! Wow, he's not letting you have that one, not even in front of your guest. Wow. Shout out to all our Danish fans out there.

Oh, I rolled over my skirt. One two one two. I was thinking, should I just go? Shouldn't we close the door? Oh, you're going to leave. Okay. Thanks. Because I was thinking about how many celebrities like Kim Kardashian,

Paris Hilton, who had sex tapes, right? And in fact, that was critical to them becoming famous, it's arguable. But actually, the number of performers who've actually fully graduated from real sex work is- Orderly non-existent. Yeah. Especially ones that have completely pivoted away. Jenna Jameson became very, very famous, but she never really left sex work. Same with Sasha Grey. Sasha Grey did a couple of movies. One was Girlfriend Experience with Steven Soderbergh. She was in Entourage as well for like a season, I think. She was the girlfriend of one of the main characters.

But it was while she was also in the industry. So, which speaks to your point, I think that it feels as though it's gate-kept or ring-fenced or whatever. Is that what it is? Or do you think it's something else? I mean, I think it's seeing how profitable of an industry it is, but not wanting to actually associate themselves with something that they look down on. And that's what it comes down to. They actually look down on it, but they want to profit from it. The same way that they look down on Arabs, but want to profit off of colonising the food, the culture, the muse, everything.

Do you think it should be more normalised? I mean, it's a hard thing to talk about. Stacey- I don't, I, that's, that's a double-edged sword of an answer to give because I don't think it should be more normalised because I don't think that it should be encouraged. I think that if, if anyone is to get into the industry, it should be after they're 24 or 25, in their right mindset, in a healthy place, doing it for the right reasons. But that's such an unrealistic suggestion or thing to expect. But I definitely don't think that it should be encouraged. Did you sort out, you know, you've been very vocal about having been ill-used by a specific

company. I'll name them. I'm not sure. Don't name them. Don't name them. It's better not to. Okay. They came out and criticized you.

The guy who's in charge of the company, I Googled him. I was trying to figure out who is this guy. He's quite shadowy. Like you don't, you can't find a photo of him. They all are. They all use aliases, they all use second names. It's insane to see the lengths that they go to, to protect themselves and their identities while benefiting off of exploiting every aspect of a woman. I mean, I will go as far as to say on record that they love it when a girl passes

away because it means that they can, it's more ad revenue, it's more views, it's more clicks. Mason Hickman It drives traffic. Tilda Hickman Of course. They are disgusting individuals and they get to hide away under fake names that they operate under. It's a really, really dark rabbit hole to fall into. Mason Harkness I was looking at an interview where you were saying that you used to have trouble talking about any of it, and now what's your, how do you view, how do you contextualize that chapter of your life and how do you look at yourself going forward?

Emma Cunningham The reason I used to have a lot of trouble talking about it is because I was extremely clouded by shame. I used to have a visceral reaction to even hearing the name Mia and knowing that if someone is calling me by that name, they're seeing me in a way that I do not want to be seen in. But that had a lot more to do with my mental health than it does about the bigger picture of things. I think it's important to talk about it when it's in the right context. I think that there's a lot of people who want to talk about it because it'll get clicks

and it'll be salacious and they think they're going to get one thing out of me when in reality I'm not going to engage whatsoever if the conversation starts going in a way that that I don't see as being important. If we're talking about it as a vessel to drive a message that will reach any young women then I'm more than happy to talk about it. But if it's to talk about it for their benefit, for views or for any other reason, they're not going to get that conversation out of me. And if you were to discourage people from going into it, what would the grounds for that be? Why is it a bad idea, do you think? I think that nine years of therapy is a lot, and it's not because of what I went through in the industry. It's what I had to go through to get to a point in my life where I feel like I am of

a healthy state of mind to make decisions in my life, and that's how long it took me to make those decisions that are so life-changing when you're 19, 20, 21 years old, 18 most of the time, that's what they're hoping for. You don't know what you're going to want for your life or what you want out of your life. You don't even know yourself that young. You should not make life changing decisions when you're that young. Mason Hines As someone who looks at the internet, right, as a denizen of the internet, someone who's very fluent in the internet, do you still find the internet enjoyable? Do you find the platforms fun to be on?

Absolutely. I also feel like we're in, unless you go looking for it, you live in a social bubble. The things that I see on my feed reflect my opinions and my point of views. If I'm seeing anything else, it's because it's making global headlines. But for the most part, I love my feed. My feed reflects my ethos. It's a reflection of my beliefs, and it's a place for me to have discourse that I enjoy and learn from. And I love social media because it also teaches me so much.

If I feel something wrong with my body, the first thing I'm doing is putting my symptoms into either TikTok and watching a video on it or learning to do something through TikTok or finding a recipe or doing something. My screen time on Instagram, actually, when I look at my week, is always less than 18 minutes. I am on it to post what I have to post, and then I'm getting the fuck out of there. I hate scrolling on it. Do you manage it yourself? Yeah.

Really? Yeah. I know we haven't got that much longer. Again, we may or may not. What do we do about what's going to happen? Okay, how am I going to put this? So regarding Israel. How are we going to solve the Middle East? Is that what you're getting at? Do you see a two state solution is either viable or desirable?

They have no right to exist. But I'm also not a politician. So why are you asking me that? That's my personal opinion. So I think what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, is the state has no right to exist. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, people do know the fascist government has no right to what the fuck? What do you mean the people do? But where are they from?

If not Eastern Europe and all over the world, they would what do you mean? That is a religion that exists, that will exist everywhere. It's a peaceful, God-loving religion that is rooted in family and in tradition and in so many beautiful things. That country is not reflective of that. That fascist government is not reflective of that whatsoever. In fact, the most religious people that are a part of that community do not agree with what's happening whatsoever. Mason- Do you use psilocybin for your mental health?

Shalini- I do, yes, absolutely. I love- Mason- You're a fan of the mushrooms? Shalini- I am a huge fan of psilocybin mushrooms. I'm a huge fan of psychedelics as a whole. I love Alex, as a whole, I love dabbling in, well, mushrooms more so than acid, but acid, weed and mushrooms are my big three. They say that, you know, that there's a lot of research going on at the moment. Have you done ayahuasca? No, I'm actually scared of that. Me too. I don't want to defecate in public.

Is that part of it? That part I think I could deal with. It's the idea of having your brain assaulted, right? Your mental faculties fully ravaged. Yeah, like acid is a couple times a year thing for me. Mushrooms is a couple times a day thing. What are you getting out of it? Are you microdosing or do you have a macrodose? I macrodose, but that, you got to set a whole day aside for that.

And the last time I tried to macro dose in public did not go very well. Why? What happened? It was at Universal Studios in Orlando. It was a terrible idea. I was dressed up in a full Harry Potter costume. Interesting. You know that's sad. You were a child at the time? No, this was two years ago.

It was two or three years ago. I just saw a lot of adorable little kids and I was like, I hope you stay that innocent. I didn't actually say that. I felt it on the inside and then cried. You did a little too much. I did a little too much. How are we doing for time? I don't know.

Are you okay? Studio. I'm going to have to wrap it up in a second. It sounds like you're in time? I don't know. Are you okay? Studio. I'm going to have to wrap it up in a second. It sounds like you're in a good place with your relationship. Could you see yourself starting a family? Absolutely. I can't wait to be a mom one day. Send their ass to boarding school.

That was a joke. It was not a joke, actually. I do not believe in the public school system in America. Come on. No, absolutely not. Yeah, but like, next to home. I went to boarding school and it was the greatest thing in the entire world. Ask what they want. I will not be asking what they want. They are going to the school with the best education program. I will be

moving to the state with the best schools per zip code. No, you cannot take chances in America. Right. The education system there is abysmal. Did you have a good experience at boarding school? I did. I had a great experience. Were you weekly or monthly? It was about three hours from home and it was the only time in my life that I started to make friends. Everyone there was on a level playing field. We all wore uniform. That was

the only time in my life that I didn't get bullied. Everyone there had so much compassion for the other person. That was the first time in my life that I made friends. I had a roommate who was my best friend. Everyone who lived on our floor, we were all such good friends. And it was military boarding school. So we would wake up at 5.30 with Reveille, do our morning chores, march down, raise the flag, march to the mess hall, march back, do our schoolwork. There was no more than 11 kids per classroom. I never felt like any question I had was stalling the class.

There was never any. I just felt like it was such an invaluable learning experience, literally like a learning experience. I would not know the amount of things that I know had I been lost in a class of 30 plus kids with a teacher who was making minimum wage, barely surviving, as you do actually paying for a child's education. And I'm very grateful for that. And I'm very grateful to know what I should do if I want my future children to be in the same position.

I feel like if private schools didn't exist, then the state would be forced to have decent public schools. Yeah, but that's the downside of America. I feel like public schools here and in Denmark or Sweden are completely different, but in America, it's bad. The teachers are barely making enough to live. There's teachers who are being, who have their hands tied behind their back financially so much that they're resorting to OnlyFans and then getting fired for trying to find another source of income to survive or to even fund their classrooms. Mason- How old were you when you went to boarding school?

Steele- I went, high school starts at ninth grade, nine to 12th grade, and I went halfway through my 10th grade year. So I had both experiences. Right. So you were sort of 14, 15, something like that? It was a feeding school to West Point, which is, I don't know if you guys know what that is. West Point is...

Military Academy, famous. Yes. Marines graduate from it. No, Marines, no, it's for the US Army. And then the Naval Academy is all, like, it's DC. It's not as uncommon as it sounds. You either pick military boarding school, Catholic boarding school, like it's a choice of like five top schools in that area.

Could you have ever gone into the Army? Like, was that on the- I applied to the Citadel, which is, I mean, if you look at my last tweet, it is a complete 180 from where I was when I was 17, 18. I really thought that like- Go on, your last tweet was- My last tweet was- Do you remember it? Not by heart, but I do remember the essence of it. And remember, you've got to read everything with a little hint of humor.

Stop thanking people for their military service and start asking how many civilians they killed instead. Emoji, sort of a smiling sleepy emoji. Not sleepy, just a little prideful. Is it prideful? It's a little, it's a wisdom smile. It's a smile of wisdom. Is it? And obviously, obviously... 4.1 million views, 59,000 likes.

Go on. I mean, I... it's... But back in the day... Back in the day, that shit was driven into you. And I know being in... And you were signed up. Were you very patriotic? I was patriotic because I had a lot of internalized racism. I did not want to be Arab. I did not

want to be... I was a pick me. I was a misogynist. I pandered to all of these things that I thought would get me accepted in the communities that I so badly wanted to be a part of, which was white male dominated things. So I'm not proud of any of it, but I'm also really proud of my growth and self-awareness and ability to point at that and say, this is what you should not be. This is why you should take care of your mental health. This is why you need to address feelings that are so detrimental like shame. Shame is, I will die on this hill. Shame is

the root of all evils of emotions. They wanted to put shame and inside out too. And when they tested it, it was too depressing. They had to cut shame out. That's really interesting. I wonder if there's ever an appropriate level of shame. Of course people need shame. You need shame because I look at people and I'm like, have you no shame? There's gotta be a balance. There's gotta be a balance of self-awareness and being able to say, ooh, maybe I shouldn't wear this here, but it's appropriate to wear it here.

Like, you know what I mean? There needs to be a concept of shame in a person to be able to. It's interesting. It's making me think of, you know, during the McCarthy trials and when Senator McCarthy was finally outed by a famous American journalist and the line that the journalist said to McCarthy was at long last, sir, have you no shame. And it's almost like a Gregory Peck moment. The idea of just kind of producing finally the appropriate morality and attempting to actually hold someone to account. Yeah, I mean, that's what I want to yell anytime the US press secretary gets on the podium and

is responding to questions from respectable journalists who have been doing this for decades and they are just being flippant in their answers about a genocide or about the state of America and where the citizens stand. My only thought is, have you no fucking shame? How do you go home and sleep at night? So which is the shame we're trying to get rid of?

You're trying to get rid of the shame that places blame when in fact it should be something that you should be addressing. You should not feel ashamed about the way your body looks. You should address that and say have you no shame to the people who are making you feel that way and the reasons that you're feeling that way. Shame is heavy. It's a heavy thing to carry. And I think it comes from a lot of cultural reasons. I think anyone with brown parents, doesn't matter what kind of brown, can agree with that. The level of shame that's put on kids for any reason, for being slightly overweight, for not marrying the right person, for a plethora of reasons. Mason Hickman Or for not having the right shoes, like poverty,

shame. You know, shame about, I just didn't have the lunchbox that everyone else had. I don't mean to trivialize it. It's like the idea of not measuring up. No, no, that's not trivial at all. You know what I mean? That you're not part of the acceptable community. No, because what that breeds is an insecurity. And the healthy shame should be directed at the person who is who is who is doing the shame. No shame on you. Yeah. The King of Denmark is I think no he's

not at the door the producer is at the door. Can we still is I know it wasn't the King of Denmark it was the ex-prime minister of Denmark. Is he out there? She. Sorry. She? Oh. Every day sexist in there. Oh wow. She. Of course. Women can be prime ministers too. I've forgotten that. Only in Denmark though. Thank you so much Sarah. I really appreciate it. Of course. No, for real. I think we solved the Middle East. I do too.

I think we solved it. So here we are. I hope you enjoyed that. It was like a one act play in two parts called The Prime Minister is Coming that we think it's the King. And I'd forgotten that women can be Prime Ministers. They're allowed to do that now. Irony alert. Her name is Hel Torning-Schmidt. I've got to stop doing bad accents. I don't know where the King thing came from. It was a product of my febrile imagination. Anyway, that's not really the main takeaway. I think the main takeaway is what an interesting person Sarah Jo is. With all she's lived through, perhaps it wouldn't, you wouldn't expect it to be otherwise. What else do we say? I think in listening back to it, I was thinking about whether I should have gone a little further in the conversation about two-state solution in the Middle East, which for a long time has been the mainstream, as it were, certainly in the West. That's been the goal for US policy, the idea of both Israel

and Palestine having their own states, but actually on the ground, as the encroachments of the settlements have continued, it's been a less sustainable, less realistic possibility. And so the one state solution, somewhat like the South Africa model, the idea that actually there should be a single state in which everyone's rights are recognised and given equal weight would be, you know, a bit like America, say, where freedom of religion is guaranteed, there is no official religion in which there would be more or less equal numbers of Palestinians and Jewish Israelis. Whether the state would even be called Israel is open to question, but that's, I think that's more or less what Sarah Jo is advocating. I don't know if Mia slash Sarah Jo is offended

by that question. She did mention it on Twitter afterwards It'll be interesting to see how the episode is received. Feel free to let me know if you're offended If you want to dox me, I am open to you doing that That's a joke. Please don't But you know, we need what do we need people who shake things up, rebels, contrarians, provocateurs. I don't want to be one of those, but I'm happy to have a conversation with one. Or many. Are we done?

Maybe that's it. Oh yes, credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in the series is by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.