The Louis Theroux Podcast - S3 EP4: Dame Tracey Emin discusses her upbringing, YBA contemporaries, and life-changing cancer diagnosis

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Louis travels to the seaside town of Margate to meet iconic British artist, Dame Tracey Emin. During an afternoon spent in Tracey’s painting studio, the pair discuss her turbulent upbringing, what she thinks of her YBA contemporaries and how a cancer diagnosis changed her outlook on life.     Warnings: Strong language, adult subject matter, including descriptions of sexual violence, and is intended for adult consumption only. Visit spotify.com/resources for information and resources. Links/Attachments:  ‘Knighthoods and Damehoods’ - The Royal Family  https://www.royal.uk/knighthoods-and-damehoods     When Louis Met... - BBC (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0dyhkbw/when-louis-met     ‘Young British Artists (YBAs)’ - Tate  https://www.tate.org.uk/art/art-terms/y/young-british-artists-ybas     ‘Lads, Gak and Union Jacks: The Oral History of ‘Cool Britannia’' https://www.vice.com/en/article/lads-gak-and-union-jacks-the-oral-history-of-cool-britannia/     ‘Illumination Media: Is Painting Dead?’ (original broadcast 1997) - YouTube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKHJoLG2cEk&ab_channel=IlluminationsMedia    ‘R.I.P. Tracey Emin’s Tent’ - BBC  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3753541.stm     ‘Tracey Emin: My Bed’ - Tate  https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/emin-my-bed-l03662     ‘Francis Bacon’ – Tate  https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artists/francis-bacon-682     ‘Carl Andre: the ‘OJ of the art world’ leaves behind a troubling legacy’ - The Guardian  https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/jan/25/carl-andre-artist-legacy    ‘Death of an Artist’ - Podcast   https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/death-of-an-artist    ‘Satirists jump into Tracey's bed’ - The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/1999/oct/25/20yearsoftheturnerprize.turnerprize     Book: Strangeland, Tracey Emin (2005)  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Strangeland-Tracey-Emin/dp/0340769467     Book: Six Turkish Tales, Tracey Emin (1987)  https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Six_Turkish_Tales.html?id=vbGUAAAACAAJ&redir_esc=y     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Videography: Revelstoke Films  Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Show notes compiled by Sally McLennan  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1212 ready mic number one. Hello, Louis Theroux here. How are you? Welcome to another episode of my podcast, the Louis Theroux podcast. And for this episode, I sat down with the legendary British artist Dame Tracy Emin. After a turbulent childhood, some of which we discussed in the chat, trigger warning, it is turbulent in the extreme, she then went to art college and subsequently caught the attention of collector Charles Sartchi who exhibited her work. Among her key works are Everyone I Have Ever Slept With 1963 to 1995 aka The Tent. It's a tent with kind of embroidered names and information inside it.

That was exhibited in 1997. Another famous work is My Bed, 1998. That was a kind of rumpled real bed with sheets and detritus around it. It was Tracy's real bed. So it was kind of making commentary on her life as well as on intimacy and life in general. And she's made lots of other paintings and other forms of art. She's worked in numerous media and is highly regarded, like extremely collectible, and has worked at the very top of the artistic profession for many years. I'm somewhere between an art buff and not an art buff. Like I go to galleries, but like a lot of people from time to time I grapple with, like what is it and what's the difference between, you know, something that's actually interested in and kind of challenging and a decontextualized,

you know, ready-made piece of art and what is just a bunch of crap, if I can put it that way. Like, you know what I mean? Like sometimes it feels like a con, but sometimes it feels amazing. And I kind of, I think we explore some of my ambivalence in the conversation. This one was recorded in July 2024. and given Tracy's recent health battles she was diagnosed with cancer in 2020 she's now thankfully cancer free. We decided to take the train down to Sunnymargate to meet Tracy in her studio. You will hear seagulls cooing. I think that's about it for ambient noise, maybe a bit of rumbling of cars. But it meant that I had a little day trip, our very first Louis Theroux on location for

the podcast recording. It also meant I got a little walk around the studio beforehand. I saw some of the paintings that form her latest exhibition at White Cube in London. I was guided around by her right-hand man, young Harry. Harry is the keeper of the keys, the sort of the amanuensis. Is that the term? He is the aid to camp. And throughout the interview, I noticed Tracy kind of peeking over at Harry to sort of check

in with him because she's unguarded, right? And she does also doesn't want to get into too much hot water. So he was kind of flying co-pilot with her a little bit. I don't mean that as a critique. Like it just explains why from time to time I reference Harry and I say to her like, Oh, are you looking at Harry? We all need a Harry. There's a couple of Harrys in the room with me right now. A warning, there is strong language in this episode as well as difficult subject matter including sexual assault, but first this. Congratulations on being a Dane by the way. I mean what does it mean to you? I think that you have these sort of accolades and these things for what you've achieved, one's achieved. And for me to achieve that really means something because most people

that achieve a knighthood or a damehood, they've had a bit of a head start. So I think it's good, it's like a good role model because I'm showing that you can leave school at 13, you can speak the way that I do. The other day I gave a speech and I swore and I went, oh my god no. And everyone's going, what's wrong? I was going, I don't know if I should swear anymore now that I'm a dame. And someone said to me, Tracy, I think they knew you swore before they made you a dame. So it's that kind of thing. It's for who I am, for what I've done, not for anything I'm going towards. I've done my bit. It's just like saying, well done.

Thank you. So... We should let the listeners know that we've met twice, right? Once within 2001 at the Brit Awards. I don't remember that much about the whole event, do you? Yeah, I remember everything. Go on. You asked me if I wanted to go to the after party.

Yeah. We went in a rickshaw underground from one bit of Earls Court to another, and then we popped up and you tried to get me to meet Eminem. Did I? Yeah. Come on, you remember that. I really don't. I was in a weird place in February 2001. Yeah, you were at the Brit Awards with me.

Well, no, I'd just broken up. I'd come out of a long-term relationship like a couple of months earlier. And so this was me stepping out and trying to embrace the idea of being a celebrity a bit more than I had previously. Even though I'd been on TV for about two or three years. But it's odd, you would think that would make me more, sort of more impressionable and more

open to the experience and more kind of curious about what was going on. But all I remember was meeting you, you looked at me and you said, you're Louis. So you would have seen one or two things I'd done. No, I really liked, I liked your programs. And then this is embarrassing, but I think I might have come on with that whole thing of come on, modern art, what's it all about? You did. Do you remember that? Yeah you did. But I thought you were a nice person and we were having a lot of fun. When we got to the VIP area we wanted to meet Eminem because my name's Emin, we thought it was funny. Gosh. Cause there was that joke going around schools saying

if Tracy Emin married Eminem her name would be, I'm not going to sing them up it's song, but that song. Finish the joke, go on. No, I can't, I'm really bad at telling jokes. Tracy Eminem. Eminem. Eminem. Mm mm.

He he. You thought it was funny at the time. Yeah, it is funny. Right? Cool. And then we went to meet Eminem and he was in some sort of harem tent with all these sort of layers and they were saying, he'll be with you soon, he'll be with you soon. We were supposed to stand in this sort of like atrium area waiting to be seen and we could just see these shadowy murky, we were the next in.

But then from the corner of your eye you happened to see Donny Osmond. Okay, yes that I do remember. Yeah and then we spent about an hour talking to Donny Osmond and then we forgot about Eminem. We sacked off Eminem for Donny Osmond. Yeah we did and we had a great chat with Donny Osmond and it was really interesting and then we said goodbye and that was it until you asked and then you asked me to be on your program or you had asked me. And you had a sort of Empress New Clothes idea like slightly piss take so I wouldn't do it. Right. Was this 2000? That would have been a year or two later when I was probably doing the When Louis Metz and anyone in the public eye. I thought let's have a go.

And I was really, really in the public eye in those days, really a lot. And there was tabloids, all kinds of things, all the wrong things. And you were just going to make it worse for me. That's what I thought. So I didn't, but I liked you and I respected, I liked the way you made your programmes and things. I thought you were interesting person, but I didn't want to do it because a lot of people had an angle against contemporary art then, which I thought was wrong. Fair enough. That's happened quite a few times. in fact you were in quite good company in turning me down for a TV profile. Like that was the more normal reaction. It was always a surprise when people said yes. It was a bit like what the hell.

Maybe they just saw your TV ratings and didn't know what you actually did because there's a number of people that do that. So you've pressed some PR people. I never had a PR person or press person. I wasn't, I was an artist. I never wasn't interested in any of that kind of stuff. We were sort of on a path where we were talking about you and then the years of your celebrity and embracing a kind of tabloid lifestyle and being a fixture. I didn't embrace it. It happened. Why did it happen? Was it because, what was that all about? Were you drinking a lot at that time?

And smoking 60 a day? 50. Only 50. Only 50. Enough to give me bladder cancer, yeah. But I... Were you enjoying it though? Mm-mm. When I look back, no, of course I wasn't. Were you in a relationship?

Yeah, I was in a relationship for about six and a half years. With Matt Collishaw? Yeah. He's another artist of a similar generation. I don't know if you like the term YBA, young British artist, but that's a label that was attached to you and to him as well, I believe. It was attached to a lot of people,

and it was attached yet again by the press and the media. And also you had the cool Britannia thing. You had like one thing that was amazing was British culture at that time. So that mustn't be knocked. It was pretty phenomenal. What was happening? It was like wave fashion, music, art, everything.

And Britain was on a world stage for that. And that I'm really, I feel really good about, but it's like you wake up one day and you, and you realize that you were doing the wrong thing. I don't mean my relationship with Matt. I mean my relationship with myself. You wake up and you look in the mirror and you go, that's not me, what have I been doing? And so constantly I was looking and looking and seeing it but not being able to change it, not having the strength to change it and just running with it.

Seeing it, but what were you seeing? I think when you're younger, you tend to like take things for granted, play with things, take things for granted. I always use this analogy like instead of sitting at the front of the class swatting, being really focused, I was just sitting at the back of the class mucking around with everybody else. But that was part of your gift wasn't it? Because when I think back, obviously when I've been talking to people about interviewing you, what comes up more than anything, well, at least as much as anything, is the 1999 TV appearance, right, in which you were drunk on TV, seemingly not aware that you were on

TV. I thought I was around someone's house. You thought you were at someone's house. I think you were around a bunch of men, I don't know who they were, looked like Roger Scruton, the philosopher might be one of them. There was very eminent male art critics. Art critics? Yeah. It was called Is Painting Dead?

Yeah. You'd just done your tent, is that right? No, I hadn't. This was in 1997 and the tent was in 1995. Right. And I was like, you know, just an artist. Some part of me knew exactly what was going on. The big part, the big Tracy knew what was going on. Little Tracy had no fucking idea.

And the next morning when I woke up, I had no memory of it. And it was like, it was like something out of a Kafka play. It was like unbelievable. Because I went to Greasy Spoon Cafe to have like a two o'clock sort of hangover breakfast with Matt and opened up The Guardian and boom I was on the page two or three of The Guardian and then saw all the other newspapers on the front page and things like this. You know, having a drunk woman on television in 1997 was quite radical and that, 1997 sorry, was quite radical and that

I walked when I walked down the street you had people give me a thumbs up saying all right Trace kind of thing like oh yeah, and then you had these other people in the establishment just going You know that's it door closed forever because you can't you know as a Professional anything anybody you're not supposed to be drunk on TV, regardless of whether you're talking about, is painting dead or nuclear science or whatever your subject is. Don't be drunk on television talking about it. And I wouldn't have gone on television had somebody,

just someone had gone, oh my God, Trace is really drunk. This isn't good. And that was it, the dive was cast, you know, I was then in that arena that was very hard for me to get out of. Can I push back slightly, and you'll probably disagree, but it's also the case that that's all anyone remembers from that TV show, that, and that you came across as funny and raw and unfiltered, which isn't to say that the programme makers didn't have a duty of care, but in a kind of, by a certain metric,

you kind of did a gangster move by being so relatable, right, and being kind of uninhibited, and there's a part of your art that feels as though it's reflecting on someone who's been through experiences that are torrid and extreme and in some ways traumatising. And that it feels true, that the appearance on TV feels true to that in some way. And that whatever happened,

it's interesting to hear you say that doors were closed because I think a lot of doors were open, or at least maybe it was unhelpful, but that you became, as you said, a headline. Yeah, I know. I mean, to the people in the street and people who never go to art exhibitions, they suddenly realised that I was this artist that did this thing. And that was interesting in the fact of opening up a subject of art for everybody.

That definitely worked. You know, I was getting letters from people in prison, I was getting letters from single mums, from women that had abortions, from all kinds of people saying, oh wow, you know, I like the way you tell your story, I've never been to an art exhibition before, all things like that. So from that point of view, yeah, it wasn't so negative. But for me, how it affected me was very negative. It was something I then had a level of resistance all around me that I then had to smash through or get through. And there's been constant things like that in my life that I've had to deal with that haven't made being an artist necessarily easy. But then I'm not a mediocre

person, so I don't expect to have a mediocre life. There you go. We were going to talk about the second time we met at Buckingham Palace. I feel weird even saying that sentence. I've never been invited to Buckingham Palace before. I'd never met the King. So for me, it was like, OK, this is a one-off. I arrived. There's about 5,000 people there, right?

Maybe not there. But it felt like 3,000. 3,000. So it was mainly people. It was like a reward for people who work in invisible positions in the arts industries right local librarians and small theater groups anyway that being the case I was next to you we shook hands with the king right he didn't shake 3,000 people's hands but he definitely shook a lot of hands didn't he? No he didn't. Didn't he? No. Go on. No. First of all you were number four hands. Yeah. One, two, three, four. I

was five. We were the only civilians and then after that the next lot of people were military. Were they? So you were right up there with the king and the queen in their pink outfits. They were wearing pink? Yeah, they were. And it was nice and it was pleasant and it was fun and it was smiley and jokey and not heavy. No, it wasn't. No, I agree with all of that.

Hmm. What did you... I didn't really... I didn't have the impression he... knew who I was there, I've said it. But that's fine. Why should he? He's got other things to think about. He did know who you were. I think he knew who you were. He was almost like, Yes, Tracey, it's wonderful to see you. It's such a pleasure. You're looking very well. There is everything.

And didn't he? He did, yeah. There was recognition there. Yeah. But he also gave you some recognition, which he... Camilla did, the Queen. She was definitely... She'd seen a couple of programmes. I don't mean to make it sound like I only tune into people who've seen my programmes. Would you consider yourself a royalist?

Would you consider yourself a royalist? Not really. You looked very happy shaking King Charles's hand the other day. How dare you? That's embarrassing. I like all the pomp and ceremony of the royal family. A lot. I love it. I think Britain, Britain at the moment definitely doesn't do many things well. That, we're always going to be number one in. So I think rather than lose something

we're really good at, why don't we embrace it and find the right position for it and use it and keep it and and enjoy it because it's quite splendid, it's quite amazing, it's quite quite brilliant and also I would never ever ever want or wish to be part of a royal family. When you see what they have to do and how they live and how restricted their lives are, I think it's like a kind of living hell. Mason There's something in that, like you think about Prince William and Prince Harry, they've never really been given a choice, and even the choice of turning your back on it is endlessly interrogated. Like Prince Harry gets lampooned for saying, actually,

I don't want to be part of this. Yeah, but we'll see, you can have very strong big families, regardless of what their class, their backgrounds, whatever, there is a whole family loyalty thing that works within like a firm, within like, you know, a tribe or such. Like a lot of people will have to go to Sunday dinner with their mum and their dad for the rest of their lives, regardless of what they're doing. But you know, think about these people who say, I'm not going to put my kids on Instagram, because that's not really their choice. And if they get old and they want to do that, that's fine. That's up to them. But let them have their

childhood in privacy, right? Whereas you think about it, these are people who, as babies, as children, that every move was photographed, they never got to decide whether that was something they were comfortable with or not. So now you're defending them? No, it's the opposite. I'm saying actually, I think they should be able to exist as private citizens, right? In other words, I think there's a kind of inbuilt cruelty to the idea of the royal family

in the way that it's structured. No, I think that. Does that make sense? No, I also think that the way that this country is governed and the way that people's attitudes are, I think there isn't much... how can there be any empathy for the royal family? It's quite difficult because their lives are so million and million miles removed from most other peoples. But that's the same for people who are living in dire poverty as well. Most of the middle class in Britain who are very comfortable could not possibly understand what it's like to queue up to go to a food bank.

That's true. But they could do it privately. I'm not saying anyway, you know what, I think that's fine. I don't, I'm not, I feel like I've come out as a sort of rampant, weird, anti-royalist and on a strange kind of, we have to protect them from themselves, Angla. It's not where I'm trying to go with this conversation. It was a special occasion and it did feel... No, but the main thing is it was a really strange place for us to meet. That's the real crux of this conversation. All those other things are attached to the fact that we, after 23 years or 25 years, whatever it is, the next time we meet

is in Buckingham Palace Garden. And that's quite amusing and quite strange and quite... And to meet the King as well. It was just to say the King. What did you do today? Oh, I was at Buckingham Palace to meet the King. It feels like something from a nursery rhyme. You had your bag with you, right? And I've since learned what might have been in the bag. Can we talk about that? Yeah. What was in your bag? Because you should have opened it, but I didn't really look inside. I don't think I showed it to you. You kind of indicated. No, I had a Victoria Beckham Paul string bag and inside that I had my night bag, which is full of urine. Yeah. Hmm. Can we talk about your cancer diagnosis? I know it was obviously, as it would be for anyone, it was a big deal.

It was in 2020. You came about in an interesting way. You were in a new relationship. You'd been... What's the best way... You'd been chased for... No, I was romantically involved with someone. Yeah. And sort of falling deeply in love. Kenny Shakhtar, should I not mention him?

Whatever. Doesn't matter. It's fine. It's like, and I didn't, I had been single for 10 years. I'd had the menopause and I thought, if I was to be involved in a physical relationship, I need to know that I'm well. So I went to the gynaecologist to find out that I wasn't well at all, that I actually had full-blown scolmocell cancer in my bladder and just one thing led to another.

It just got worse and worse. And then within four weeks or whatever, I was having radical surgery. And I'm lucky to be alive. The operation I had is like a last chance saloon. And very few people survive it or live for more than five years afterwards. I've lived for four years now. So it's getting better.

And I'm determined to live. And my thing, when I thought I was given like it's possibly six months to live and at that point I just thought, oh Christ, what am I going to do? And I just thought, well I'm going to die, so I'll just focus on the living. And by focusing on living for the first time in my life I felt happy, I felt relieved and happy and I just thought, wow today's nice, this is good, that's positive, this is lovely. I was getting iller and iller as the time went on. I mean by the time I had my surgery I couldn't walk or anything, I was really thin and that's the other thing, it's amazing that you actually survive the surgery because there's so much, you have so much

removed and yeah it was life-changing and also to have a urostomy people mix it up with a colostomy so it's not a poo bag it's a wee bag and the wee comes out all the time constantly and the reason why I can sit here now without my night bag is because I haven't drank hardly anything today and the reason why I had to have my night bag plugged in on my shopping bag when we met the king Is because these things take time and you don't know how long it's gonna take for them to come down the stairs this or that And the last thing I want to do is be standing there

Ready to meet the king and queen and then have to beforehand rush to the loo or my bag burst. That would be really embarrassing Yeah Thinking of bringing we over the king that would be really embarrassing. Yeah. Yeah. What would that, that would have... It's not worth thinking about. ...bring we all over the king. Over the king, yeah. That's like an Irvine Welsh situation. How amazing. So the six-month prognosis was if you didn't get any surgery or that was it?

No, if I didn't get the surgery, that was it. And the surgery is quite, I mean, had my bladder removed, part of my intestines, my full hysterectomy, ureter, half my vagina, my lymph nodes. Yeah, they were going to remove my clitoris. The last thing I said before I went down, he goes, is there anything you want to say before we put you up? And I said, please don't, if you don't have to, don't take away my clitoris. And then when he woke me up and he said, I've got some good news. Everything else has gone barf. Yeah. So, you know, some people have bladder cancer. When it's caught really early, it's just like

fishing a tiny pea out of the bladder. And it's amazing because the bladders contain the cancer. And if it's a tumor, they can just take it out. But the kind of cancer I had was attached to my wall of my bladder and it's scolmosephal cancer so it's more like little beads of water, so you can't contain it. The only way you can get rid of it is by cutting it away, the chemo doesn't work, that kind of thing. So that's why most people die, because they take it all away and then there's a tiny little bit left and then it just starts up again. And you think it was related to the smoking?

Yeah definitely because I smoke so much and I didn't affect my lungs and so what happens is the carbon dioxide becomes liquefied and goes down into the bladder and it usually comes on about 20 years after you've given up smoking. When you found out about the cancer, who did you call? What did the rest of the day look like? Was it in London? Yeah, it was interesting because it was during lockdown, so there was no one about.

So it was all kind of quite desolate. And I just bought a new house. And I walked to my new house, let myself in. It was being renovated. And I sat on the steps. And I only cried twice about the cancer and one of these sort of like tears came down my face. I thought, fucking hell, I'm probably never going to live in this house. And then I thought, this house is my dream house. I'm

going to live in this house. I'm going to live in this house. And that was it. That's the only time I cried. And then I went back to my studio and I was going to drive to Margate that day and it was about three in the afternoon and I went to the fridge and I opened up a bottle of champagne and I poured the glass of champagne and I sat, this is the truth, sat looking at a painting, sort of red abstract painting with this sort of black sort of weird thing in it and I was spending ages and ages looking at it thinking what is that? What am I going to do with that? What is that? And then I sipped in this glass of champagne and I suddenly thought oh you stupid cow I can't drive down to Margate now because I drank the glass of champagne. So I thought oh I'll just like either sit it out or have another one and then you know when the phone rings and it makes you jump

the phone rang and I jumped like this and I saw it was the gynaecologist and I said hello and she said oh you with anyone? I said no and she said are you sitting down? I said it's not good news is it? She said no. I said your doctor's gonna call you straight after me and that was it and that was on the Thursday and on the Monday I was in the hospital and the following two weeks I was having surgery. And then the following four weeks, the full surgery. It's fast. And the thing that saved my life was that it was lockdown.

So there wasn't many people going for tests or doctors. Or I think people didn't want to go out, you know, and I did it. And then the other thing was that I said yes to everything, to the full surgery, because if I hadn't, they would have taken away my bladder and then maybe then something else, then something else. But I did the whole thing and it saved my life. Forgiveness is intrusive. So postmenopause, you found you had no sex drive? No, he can't talk to me about things like that.

Why don't we talk about art? All right, fine. But your art is also about sexuality, isn't it? Yeah, some of it. It's about love, it's about love as well. Yeah, and at my life stage, I'm 50, just turned 54, the idea of sex drive and the extent to which, you know, you're with a partner for 10, 15, 20, 25 years

and how you manage a relationship in which sex is no longer. Yeah, well, I think a lot of people when they reach our age kind of thing have that situation or that problem. It's not just about libido. It's also health, being tired, knowing what's coming, just loving someone, wanting to get on with work. There's all those kind of issues

that people go through, but also people fall out of love and they're just trapped with people and they can't admit that they want to break away. So there's that kind of thing too. Or people just say, this is the status quo, this is my life. But I've never done that. Done what? Never had a relationship with someone for 15, 20 years. I've never been married, I've never had children, none of those things. But you've been in love. Yeah, I've been in love a few times.

And I think you've said that you love too much. I love too much. But you love too much, yeah. Yeah, especially when I was younger. And I think that've said that you love too much. I love too much. That you love too much, yeah. Yeah, especially when I was younger. And I think that's also why I spent 10 years on my own, because I didn't want to be in that situation again, where I feel bereft all the time or feel... Yeah, it's got lots to do with my personality and my intellect

and all the lack of it, whatever. It's just that I'm kind of loving person and I believe what people say. So I can fall hook, line and sinker, you know, in love. Do you think you are an easy person to be in a relationship with? Depends what you want in a relationship. If you want me to be at home every night cooking dinner and having children or doing the school run, absolutely not. Forget it, it's never gonna happen. If you want me to be a woman that was a driving force, love passionately what they did more than

anything else in the world, love cats more than children, then yeah, great person to have a relationship with. I'm different from other people because I'm singular in lots of ways. I like my own company and also I'm a workaholic. So that's not always easy for some people, especially some men. First of all they love it, they think it's attractive, then afterwards they don't. Because they want it to be more about them? No, it just might be, sadly, just be a primal thing. Men just want to be out there doing the hunting and doing the stuff and expect something from me, but they want not what I want necessarily. I mean I'm quite hardcore feminist and that's how I live. At the end of the day I'm totally independent,

financially independent, I'm singularly minded and I've been looking after myself for a long time since I was 15. We have a friend sort of in common in Joan Collins, right? Dame Joan. And Joan is also, I think she sometimes embraces the term feminist, but she also says men need to be tough. She would like to see national service brought back. She doesn't like the term toxic masculinity, and she thinks me too has gone too far.

I'm summarizing a bit. And I wonder if that resonates, any of that resonates with you? No, one of my favorite things that Joan ever said was that being born beautiful is like being born rich and becoming poorer and poorer every day. You know, Joan is an incredibly beautiful woman and she's really funny, really funny.

But Joan also, it comes from another time, another era, another generation. She has a different way of looking at things from me entirely, but it doesn't mean to say that we don't get on on lots of other reasons. Very, very funny. Well, what about things like, because your art is so uncompromising and powerful and makes reference to sexual assault and abortion and really difficult, challenging issues. I wonder where you stand on the whole issue of trigger warnings. So if I said, yeah, we love your art, Tracy, but we want to put a trigger warning over the gallery entrance. No, usually there is. There's always a thing saying that under 16s or something like this,

or like with my abortion film, there was a warning simply because eight people I think passed out watching it. And you know, strong stuff art. It really does work. It makes people think it changes lives. Tracy, we love it. We think it's a little strong. We'd like you to tone it down. There are a couple of pieces we're not comfortable with. And then you say... No, it's never going to happen. It's never going to happen.

If you could replace the word fuck with something like copulate, would that be okay? You're so funny. No, it doesn't happen. It's about respect. Someone wants me to show and show my art. That's it. That's what they get. But there are there are the odd occasion where you have to be a little bit more, I'd say, discreet. But it's not about changing the work or changing the meaning of the work or whatever. That's impossible because this is what I do. But the point that you could be making is that when I was younger, what I

did and what I stood for was unacceptable in a lot of places. People saw it as being shocking or brash or whatever without understanding the subtext and the whole giant conversation of it all. Is there a piece of yours that was ever protested or that you feel was misunderstood in any way? Yeah, a lot of my work. Go on. Well, the tent, because the tent, people thought it was like who I shacked. Because it was called?

Everyone I've ever slept with from 1963 to 1995. Ambiguous. Yes, sleep, as in sexually and also physically sleep. sleep as in sexually and also physically sleep. So it was about a level of intimacy. So there was some cartoons at the time, like of all sort of like a TP tent with like George, Pete, John, you know, like these crude names or whatever,

but it wasn't about that at all. The tent was all about intimacy. The idea of the tent was that people would go in, read about who I'd slept with, and then they'd come out and think about who they'd slept with. And I said at the time when I said that tent, it was like carving tombstones sometimes, all the memories and everything that it brought back, because it wasn't all very nice, it wasn't all very good, it wasn't all positive. And like being raped at 13 is pretty negative, being sexually abused as a child is really negative. Living with those thoughts, remembering those thoughts, trying to hone in on them and work it out is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. And I think they're the trigger things that you could be talking about, those things really matter. But for me it was important to investigate that world for me and find out more about

myself. And I did that through my art and I still do it through my art now in a much more subconscious way which I enjoy a lot more I've got to say. I think when I was young it was very, I'm going to make work about abortion, I'm going to make work about being raped, I'm going to make work about this, I I'm gonna make work about abortion. I'm gonna make work about being raped I'm gonna make work about this. I'm gonna make work about that So in a way, I kind of illustrated the fear or the thoughts that I had Whereas now they just come out kind of magically or whatever I don't really know when I'm painting and that's why I love painting because it's much free and medium for me to Subconsciously get involved in because never really know what's going to happen or take place.

With the tent, how did you make reference to the attackers? Because you wouldn't have known... There's a few incidents that you describe in your book, and one is, is it two men who kind of... they're just strangers and they opportunistically grab you, right? In Margate, right? Age 13? Do I have that? No, I was older. I was actually sort of 14.

14? Yeah. But you wouldn't have known their names, right? Yeah, I did know their names. You knew who they were? Their names were on the tent. Everybody's name's on the tent, but not necessarily next to the anecdote

or the story that fits it, because I didn't want to be accusational with the tent. I didn't do anything about it at the time. Now I do things about it. Now I talk about it. Now I reach out about it. Now I tell people to talk about it. I tell people to tell the names. I tell people. I make it an open subject, not a taboo subject. An open subject. It's like abortion. I make it an open subject to talk about. You do not have to suffer on your own having an abortion. You don't have to feel guilty. You don't have to feel ashamed. It's something you have to go through. No woman wants to go for an abortion.

And it's like the chance of being sexually assaulted and being able to get something done about it is pretty slim. So how do you deal with this situation in real life? How do you carry on? How do you not let it happen again? How do you defend yourself? Or how do you not enter into the world like a nervous wreck every time someone touches your arm or something? You know, there's lots of things in my work which touch people's lives. It's not just about making art. I'm not just making a beautiful object. I'm making something which affects me, that affected me, and it actually transfers to other people's lives as well. It opens up discussion.

The tent got incinerated, didn't it, in the big fire that destroyed a lot of the Sarche collection. Yeah. And you never reproduced it? No. If I'd have remade the tent, when I call it a facsimile of a real piece of art, I would have got paid a million pounds at the time.

And that was in 2004. And that's what the insurance would have covered. And I said no. Because the tent to me was real. It was a real thing that I really made, that I sat in and sewed and thought about. It wasn't like just a decorative object that could be replaced. It wasn't like that for me. Can I ask you about your contemporaries or is that going to be annoying you?

So you're often grouped in with the other big name of the YBA generation, Damien Hirst. Thoughts? Going to look over to Harry now. What's Harry doing? Winking at me, smiling, winking at me. So, okay, I think it's really hard to be an artist. I think it's really difficult. I think people who don't make art or don't attempt to be an artist don't understand how difficult it is to have that conviction, that self-belief and everything. Damien was a young artist that started off with a lot of that belief and a lot of that conviction. He was like a force and now he's not. But every artist has a way of going. You don't think his art's interesting anymore? Because one of the things about art that's kind of intriguing

and like so much contemporary art, some of it's opaque. Actually, I think a lot of your art's quite relatable, it's accessible, right? You can understand there's a narrative behind a lot of it and it's representational, or if it isn't, it's conceptual in a way that you can understand. You can understand a tent that's representing aspects of your intimate life and in an ambiguous way paying tribute to difficult and wonderful experiences, right?

Or the bed. It's right there. There's a story there and the story is someone's life. At least at first glance, it feels almost like it has a documentary quality. As a documentary maker myself, I feel as though I'm getting an insight into someone's life. I mean, you can study it, you can look at it, it's not difficult to kind of under... Now when you see the bed, it's like stepping back into time because there's all these things

like there's a newspaper, a force gap Guardian newspaper. There's things that you just don't have anymore in 2024. What else is there? There's some used condoms, is there? Yes, there is some used condoms. There's many things. There's my slippers, there's pill packets, there's... Some pill, like what sort of contraceptive pills? Yeah, there's all kinds of things.

Is there a bottle of wine or something? Is it... Volca. I never drink spirits then, but... So who'd been drinking the spirits? Matt had been drinking spirits. So it was a bed that you'd shared with Matt. So there might be Matt's DNA on some of the condoms. Sure there is. That's handy if in the future they want to

clone Matt and create like a theme park. It could be like Jurassic Park, the YVA edition. I think you're... They could have YVAs roaming around in a theme park. No, no, no. Harry, will you write that down? That's my concept. I'm trying to say I wouldn't do an interview with you before

because I didn't want you to let yourself down talking about art. Yeah. Making a big joke out of it all. Okay. Here you go. No, come on, that was a joke. No, no. 20 years later, you're letting yourself down.

This was me actually saying that I think your art is accessible and I feel as though, like I enjoy and I get references and now I'm going to try and prove my credentials. I get a little bit of Munch, Edvard Munch, the Norwegian expressionist, and I get a little bacon in some of the colour choices, especially the newer stuff, you know, and the same way, in a lot of bacon you get almost sadomasochistic, the suggestions of either sex or wrestling hinted at, and then some, it comes suddenly into focus in one part of the canvas, and then the rest might almost be like a colour field painting, like a Rothko.

But in yours, I see a little similar, it's paying tribute to experiences that are tender and violent and everything in between. Did it sound like I was? That was very, very good. Was that all right? It's totally good, yeah. Every single reference as well was a good one. I liked all of those artists. But we were talking, but just to forget,

but on Hearst, he still commands huge prices. He's worth about, I think 800 million, according to Google, I can Google, he's one of the richest artists in the world, like $800 million or something. Do you know how much, would you know your net worth? No idea. Google said 50 million. I thought that was a bit low, probably. No idea.

Well, this doesn't matter. No, it doesn't matter because my life is pretty rich. Every single day I sit here, I think I'm so fucking lucky to be here because four years ago thought I was going to die. When you go through that kind of thing and you look at you look you see it you see death and it's just there you suddenly start adding up everything you've got and everything you've worked for and how brilliant life is all the little things all the big things all the simple things you don't measure life by, you don't measure life by accolades and things like that. You measure life on a day-to-day level of success of how good your day was. And since I've been very ill, my days have

got better and better and better. And I love my life now. And I couldn't say that five years ago. I certainly couldn't say that 15 years ago. I couldn't say it when I was drinking a lot. I couldn't say it when I was running around Soho, you know, lighting the place up. I bet you had a lot of fun though. I did, but not as much, not such a nice time as what I'm having now. My life is so much nicer now. I love it.

I love it. Was this when you- No, but I'm gonna tell you something really, because when I was a little girl, little, like 10 or whatever, there would always be these sort of things, there was like a youth club, right, called St. John's Youth Club, it was just down the road, and it was on a Friday night, and everyone used to be looking forward to going to this youth club, and there was a pool table, and there was dancing and everything, and I used to really be looking forward to it,

and then right at the last minute of going out the door, I think, I know, I don't want to go. And I'd be sitting in bed, crocheting or something, you know, and I was only 10 then. I liked sitting at home crocheting in bed rather than throwing myself out at the disco dancing to T-Rex, you know. There was this division with two parts of me and they were quite clear there was this sort of very quiet calm Tracy and this sort of like wild Tracy. Now as I'm older I like the calm part of me, I enjoy it. My wildness comes out in my work, my wildness comes out swimming in the sea and swimming around the harbour. It's like having some sort of guidance and control and enjoyment about what I do. It's so much nicer than being out of control like I was.

It was like, and also before when I was young, I was very nihilistic with everything. And now I'm not. In what way were you nihilistic back in the day? I think I wanted to die. Why? Because I was to die. Why? Because I was so unhappy. And now... Unhappy about what?

Life, living. I found it extremely difficult living. I was really like... I am sensitive, I'm an artist. And I think when I was young, I just was so... Everything was just seemed really difficult. And that's another reason why I think I drank a lot. A lot of people, they give up drinking drinking like they give up whatever drugs or drink or

whatever it is. I've never taken drugs but I never been interested. Any kind? No I tried tried. Not even a spliff? No I've been stoned three times in my life. Didn't like it? No it's not a thing I'm into I wouldn't ever dream of like. Alcohol was your drug that's all you needed? Yeah and cigarettes. And cocaine? No never. Didn't the YBAs that was a big part of the scene? Yeah but not mine I bought a house instead. There you go. I always say every time. Look who's laughing now. But I was never interested in it ever. My mind's too fooled the way I think is too fooled the way I visualize things is too full to be like, why would I want to do that to myself?

We didn't really arrive anywhere with Damien Hirst, what you think he's lost. Because you know what, I'm not really, as I said to you, it's really hard being an artist. It's really difficult. You just don't like the work, is that what it is? No, it's not that. It's just like, I think a lot of male artists right in general always say this right men they sort of peak in their 40s they have just one it's like one massive giant ejaculation say and women nice image yeah women just tend to come and come and come and come and come so as a woman you carry on coming all your life until

you're old like Louise Bourgeoisgeois, in 97 she stopped working, she stopped working the day she died, you know. And women have the capability of doing that as long as they're given the opportunity to do it. And I think a lot of men peak in their forties and women continue. So maybe Damien peaked, I don't know, we have to see. Only time can tell, only time can tell with artists, you can't, you can't, it's not clear. Like now, if you look Joan Mitchell for example, wow, she's like, you know, undoubtedly one of the greatest American abstract painters ever. Better than Jackson Pollock, better than... Joan Mitchell, the musician? No, Joan Mitchell, the painter. Okay. Cut that bit out. Keep that bit in. No, Joan Mitchell.

No, it seems he seems... I thought you were talking about Joan Miro. No, Joan Mitchell, the American... No, but now I've said it, go to Tate Britain, the Tate Modern, and you'll see a big Joan Mitchell room. Joan Mitchell. It must be annoying having a name so close to someone else who's more famous. No.

You don't think it is? Yeah but also what's really annoying about this conversation is you've just like ruined my argument. What was the argument? Because my argument was good about Joan Mitchell now so you wouldn't have heard about her back you know 30 years ago but now Joan Mitchell is the one that's come into the fore and come into the... and she's a woman. Do you care about whether the artist was a good person? Like, whether they... you know, this whole business about artists being cancelled, you know, they were abusing their wife or

whatever or involved in hideous activities. Does that have any bearing? Yeah, it does. It shouldn't, but it does. For you? Yeah, you should just look at the art, but, you know, I can't help... Every time I walk over to Carl Andre now, I think about his wife falling out of a window.

I can't help it. Who's Carl Andre? The man who personally made the bricks. People in Radioland. Tracy actually rolled her eyes when I asked, who's Carl Andre? It's like they went sky up in her skull. Yeah, but actually it's not a bad question to ask who he is

because now everybody knows who his wife is. So his wife... Did he push her out the window? No one really knows what happened. But she died falling out of a window. No one really knows what happened But there's some artists I can't say or whatever but most of it unless I actually know for a fact I don't really like to say but I think in all of the art world or all of the worlds So they say fashion cinema

film Acting whatever art is actually quite good. In what terms? Like a lot of women are successful now, a lot of women are museum directors, there isn't a cast and couch. Right, diversity and inclusion. Yes, it's getting much much better. So, you know, women don't tend to be pushed around that much in the art world. Maybe 50 years ago, but now it's definitely getting so much better. Did you mind, what do you think about guerrilla acts

like attacking a piece of art as a statement, either a political or artistic statement? I don't think anyone should attack anything. What about when, what about someone like, there were a couple of performance artists that got in the bed, in your bed. Yeah, well it was really upsetting. Was it?

Mm. Was it in Japan? No, it was here in London, they were Chinese artists. What's that all about? Because they wanted to get attention, they used my work to get themselves attention, which is incorrect. So there's not a room in the house for that?

There's not a room in the house for that, no. Definitely not. People should make their own work and make their own careers. Banksy? No, we're not going there. You're trying to drag me down a hole. I don't want to go. I don't mind arguing. I don't mind difficult things. But Banksy's a brilliant street artist, okay? Globally well known, gives lots to charity, very generous person. There you go. You looked at Harry, I saw you. Yeah, I've been looking at Harry everything, yeah. He's smiling, that's why he's making me laugh, yeah.

Harry said to me, isn't Louisville supposed to be really difficult? I'm like, no, he's like really nice. Come on, Harry didn't say that. He should listen to all his podcasts. No, he didn't. That doesn't sound like Harry. Difficult, I wish. A dream of the day, maybe didn't. That doesn't sound like Harry. Difficult, I wish. A dream of the day, maybe one day.

Do you think you'd become nicer? I think that's what you think. And you haven't. I don't think I was ever not nice. I do think that I might have thought that being involved in TV and broadcasting meant being adversarial. And I had the attitude that a lot of TV was corrupt because it was overly safe and onside and therefore not quite honest.

But nowadays I don't think that. I feel as though I had it. I came up through satire and a world of eviscerating people because you didn't agree with their politics. So for me, during an interview, not always, but often was like, let's get the goods on them. And that's in some contexts appropriate in journalism, but in some settings that feel,

if you elevate that principle above others, it can be unkind. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So I think perhaps I have maybe mellowed a bit. But I've always been thin-skinned, anxious, nervous, wanted to be liked. I've just maybe allowed that to guide my editorial choices a bit more. And I think a bit like you, I drink more than you're supposed to, and a lot of it,

and I can relate to what you were saying about not going out, you know, or feeling that there's these two personalities, like I'll think I don't want to go out to this party and then you go out and you drink and you have a really good time and then feel a bit dirty the next day because you probably drank more than you wanted to, right? I think a lot of that's to do with anxiety.

No, because my drinking wasn't that simple. I wish it had been. What were you wanting? My drinking was like a sort of binge drinking, of wanting to go into an oblivion, wanting to go into the darkest recesses, wanting to disappear, turn in on myself and disappear. That isn't wanting to go out and have a good dance and a good time.

If it had been that simple, I wouldn't have stopped. So you went further than that? Yeah, definitely. And I drank too much. I drank alone. What was your tip on? Wine, white wine. It was harmful, bloody. Is that a bad one? Yeah, because it's so acidic-y.

So if you think, your whole body's been like, vinegared. Marinated in... Marinated in hate and desperation and sort of like, some sort of psychological turmoil. When did you kick that in the head? Four years ago. Because of the diagnosis?

No, it was a combination of things. It was like I couldn't drink because every time I sipped something, it killed me because the cancer hurt too much. And then it was just like, got less and less. And then, but in fact, what's the date today? The 18th. Yeah, 18th of July.

So it was four years ago today that I had my surgery. And four years ago on the 16th of July that I had my last glass of champagne. Really? And you haven't drank since? I drink this very, very, very low alcohol thing thing and I sometimes have anger stirr bitters and I drank This is true. I drank a glass of cider By accident thinking it was 2% cider, which is like chat and I was really drunk Not to look and lay down afterwards. That's the only thing I've drank That's like proper alcohol.

If you, on the question, you know that Banksy question was asked somewhat innocently, I don't know if you're on record as having said that you weren't a fan. No, I never said anything. You've never commented on his art. I never comment. If there was something in art that you feel like, when is someone... Look, this is what I always say about art, okay? Art has many rooms, many, many rooms. And in that big giant house with all those different rooms, there's room for everybody. There's room for Banksy, there's room for Damien, there's room for David Hockney, there's room for Bridget Riley, there's room for Francis Bacon, there's room for Edvard Munch, there's room for, there's room everywhere. And every time there isn't room, you just add another room on and there they go.

It's art. Is there a room for AI created art? Well, thanks to robots, for example, that's another reason why I'm still sitting here. They taught robots working on your surgery, didn't they? Yeah. So if I start slacking off AI and this and that, then I've got to sort of think how

big the subject is, how useful it can work or whatever. But I really don't, in terms of art, AI doesn't really sit well with me, especially when I'm a compulsive, passionate, hot-blooded person who paints. The idea that right now in China there's some machine or some person painting my painting, it drives me mad. And what do you regard as the qualities that art when it's working embodies? I like art that's very emotional. I like art that's not necessarily pictorial but more and I like art that's expressive and meaningful and I like art that's often very

difficult and so I don't necessarily hang that art on my wall, I can't keep it in my head constantly. So art is a thing that I think about a lot as well as a concept, as a way of being, as a way of living, it's not just necessarily something you hang on the wall. It's like a vortex, something you go through, like you go through it, and you come back the other side, especially when I'm painting. So it's like a place I go to, not just the thing I do. Well, let's can we if your energy is all right, should we talk about your upbringing a tiny bit? I'm curious, you know,

you've said that you were unhappy. In your book, Strangeland, you talk about extraordinary scarring experiences growing up. I mean, it was a complicated, it was a complicated family situation, wasn't it? Yeah. Was that what's behind all of this? It's not just poverty, but it's... No, I think there's different things that are behind his abandonment, for example, feeling... By your dad? And my mum, because my mum wasn't always around, and I think my mum and dad not being married, my dad having another family,

completely. Not just another family but almost like his main family, it sounded like he was married to his wife. His wife. And he had like, how many kids? Three. But he didn't, he had lots of children. He had about 20, 23 children. Yeah, three with her, two with your mum, and then like 15 others.

Yeah. He's like, they're the ones unofficial. Yeah, the unofficial. He says it. You want to know, official or unofficial? Five official. He's got no, what's the word, He's got no sense of like embarrassment about it. No, yes.

Quite proud maybe. No, I don't think he is proud. I just think it's just like, I did it. He wasn't going to like try and cover it up or whatever. Turkish Cypriot businessman, right, came to the UK, met your mum. Where was the other family based? No, he wasn't a businessman.

Well, he had a hotel, didn't he? No, he came to the UK when he was 22, and he worked as a commis chef in the Ritz Hotel. And he was coming from Cyprus to go to Australia. And he got off the boat here, and then he was getting a boat to Australia. And then his cousin sent him a telegram saying, Enver, you won't get in.

Your skin's too dark. Because they had the whites only policy in Australia then. So then my dad stayed in England. So he wasn't married at this point? No, I think he got married when he was, when he was about 24 or something. He went back to Cyprus, married his wife, and then came back to England with her.

Then he meets your mum at a certain point? He met my mum in 1958. 1958? Yeah. Long, and he got married. This is quite a few years later then? Hmm, 10 years or so later, yeah. Just in terms of how did it work, how did he divide his time between his wife and your mum? We always say he spent three days with my mum, three days with his wife and one day somewhere else. Tom Katting. That's what we used to say, yeah. But no, I love my dad. You must have been very attractive. Yeah, he was.

He's charismatic, he dressed good. He was an interesting person. But my dad and my mom were unusual people. And they, you know, when I was about six, seven at school, people's parents were getting divorced and it was like a big deal, I remember it. And then my parents never got married. So to me, things like that didn't matter.

I can probably remember the time, count the times as a family, we sat down at dinner with my mum and my dad. I only have like maybe four photographs of us all together. We didn't have a family situation like that. It wasn't like that. You said your mum abandoned you. She didn't abandon me. She went away. She went away a few times.

Went away where? She ran off to Turkey once with a young lover. That was interesting. She liked the Turkish fellas. It wasn't that simple. My mum liked exciting things. My mum felt like her life should have been a lot different, but it wasn't. So... She's very proud of you. Yeah. So was my dad. So was my brother.

Did your brother like the art? I only mention because he made one of those classic, oh it's a lot of albolics isn't it, comments in 2000. Got your memory. In 1999, in Man Tracy from Margate, the documentary, I think it is, it might be somewhere else. He interviewed him, he goes like, oh if you can get away with it, fair play, but come on, it's a lot of albolics. But that was 25 years ago, whatever, 26, whatever. Interview now and he wouldn't say that, would he? What would he say now? He'd say he's really proud of me

and he understands it much more, the work. And I think like a load of people would say that about art. That was what the problem was. And now it's still a problem. In fact, there's no art education in schools anymore. If you come from a like working class background, the chance of being educated in the arts or music or cooking even, isn going to happen at school.

There are lots of things that are wrong. We were sort of on a path where we were talking about you feeling abandoned, but maybe not that. Your mum's interests were elsewhere. Should we just wrap things up with your upbringing in Margate? You seem to have been left to your own devices a lot, right? I've always said that my mum and dad weren't the best parents in the world. They wasn't, their parenting was not their strong point, right? But being loved, they loved us, my dad, you know, and so when you've been loved and you know you're loved, it does give you a sense of security,

even if you've got the fear of abandonment or this or that, if you know what love is, then that's a really good thing. And so I know my mom and dad love me and that's really important. Because lots of people, they're abandoned and they've never been loved even. So that's a million times worse.

Of course. Yeah. So I'm not complaining or whatever. I'm just saying that I did have a weird fucked up childhood, but lots of people do. Yeah. And lots of people do it, you know. So but basically, what was I trying to get to? Oh yeah. Life. Do you think there's a part, because on paper, parts of you being wayward, basically being abused, sexually assaulted, becoming... Can I use the term promiscuous?

No, totally promiscuous. That's another problem you see. You know, I say to people it wasn't the sexual abuse that was the problem. It was what I did in retaliation to that as a teenager that was more of a problem. So I thought it was my choice to go off sleeping with lots of people. Older, much older usually, right? Yeah, when I was a teenager. Imagining that you were in control. I would say that, you know, sex for me was an adventure. I really thought I was going on an adventure every time I slept soundly.

Did you think you were enjoying it? Yeah, some of it I was. You know, that's the truth. But it's not necessarily a good, I mean, it's not a good thing. When I see like girls now, I sort of think, oh my God, you know, I was that age. And how could anybody, who's the age of 25, want to sleep with me? There's one where there's a bloke who pushes you in the back of his van. It's got a mattress in it. He didn't push me in the back of his van.

Basically, he didn't push you, he invited you. No, I actually had a relationship with him. Not relationship, sexual relationship with him for quite a long time. Although that's not clear from the... I read that later, but that's not clear from the account in the book. And he has sex with you. I think you say that... Can I say it? You think you say, he fucked me furiously,

and then afterwards I thought that's the best sex I've ever had. Yeah, I was 14. And he was what, 22? Yeah. I often wonder what ever happened to him. What about this one? Are you comfortable with me doing this? Go on.

I've got your book in my hand. She's looking at Harry. No, this one shocked me. What is it? Well, you tell me, which bit am I gonna read? No, I tell you what, was, this one shocked me. What is it? Well, you tell me which bit am I going to read? No, it's here what, right? This is really important. Context is everything. Yeah. So, someone quietly sitting at home reading my book after reading the whole book is a lot different from on a podcast you just reading out one paragraph. That's true. I don't have to read it. And so it's out of context. It could very well be. It is out of context, because the only context is me reading on a podcast.

So what are we going to do about that? I don't know. You guys go on. You can always cut it out. I'll read it and then you can decide. Okay, go on then. I was in a relationship once some years ago now, when for three years I was never kissed, never held.

Not only was I mentally abused, but almost every night I was subjected to anal sex. That was the closest I got to any kind of physical affection. That's not that shocking. I think there's probably a lot of people, a lot of people have been like, they have to deal with stuff like that. That's what happens in life, isn't it? That's not shocking. That's sad. Maybe it's both.

I don't think it's that shocking. I think it happens to a lot of people. I think... Because you loved him? Yeah, I thought I did. Whenever you're in a relationship that's coercive or abusive or whatever, you don't see it at the time. You can't see it. That's part of the abuse. That's quite obvious. You talk about getting, I mean, it goes on to describe the physical repercussions, like having piles, infections, all this kind of thing. Next time you will untie me again, when we're really old, I'm going to read everything I can about you and I'm going to scrutinise your life every little

bit. God, that would be a dream. Do an artwork about it. No, but it is, seriously, when someone's done as much research as you have, it's good to be interviewed by someone that makes me nervous because I have to really think about what you're saying and then that means I'm really thinking about me and then thinking about my life. And then now you just make me feel a little bit sad. Did I? I'm sorry. Yeah, I've got to admit, I never read that book anymore.

It's an extraordinary book, extraordinary level of self-lacerating, self-revelation and what I think is brilliant about it, which I think is common to a lot of your art, is that actually you don't use a lot of terms that are loaded with judgment. You present what happened and you allow the reader to be shocked, or not shocked. Does that make sense?

A bit like we were talking about paintings and things. Yeah, but it's also a bit like me, and it's a bit like my work. So it's like you trying to make me, not make me say things, but give a judgment on certain things we've talked about, art or whatever. That's not our function. That's not how I do it. Nathalie, I'm not a bad person.

I don't want to be negative about things or people or whatever, because honestly, I swear to God, life is too short and at the moment touchwood things are a little bit calmer and I want to hold on to that so I can concentrate on the painting doing the good things and be more positive and enjoy life and enjoy the difficult things in life too and deal with them properly like having cancer or like having bowels that don't work properly or my everyday life. I'm in pain quite a lot of time. So I don't want to, on top of that, have to deal with all these,

I'm not saying I want an easy life because I don't have one, but I'm really focused on making things more positive now and I've got to try and keep that way because I don't want cancer to come back. I don't want the negativity to come back. Oh God, I think I've just given you cancer. that way because I don't want the cancer to come back. I don't want the negativity to come back. Oh God, I think I've just given you cancer. I think that's what you're saying. I just gave you, I just brought your cancer back, didn't I? No you didn't, you made me smile now.

That was the subtext. No, but you understand what I'm saying. I'm so sorry. No, don't say that. You know what I'm saying though, about the negative, about negative, the vast amounts of negativity, obviously, are not going to be good for anybody in any situation.

How did you, because on paper that upbringing could have gone south, could have gone really bad, and I know there was a lot of bad stuff, but if you, when you look back what was it that enabled you to rise out of that? Art. I stopped going to school when I was 13, and then by law I had to go back when I was 14, 14 and a half. There's a thing called a WW13 and it's like the social services are coming to get you if you don't go to school three days a week. I went three days a week and I did art almost every day and doing the art three days a week at that age, 14, 15, meant that the time when your brain is most fluid and you're taking everything in, I was taking art in and making art. And that was a very lucky moment. So you had a passion to do it, but you also had a place where that passion was allowed

to flourish. I think we're getting close. What do you think? Was this stuff that, can I mention a couple of things quickly? Just going to check that, but I feel we're getting close. What do you think? Was there stuff that... Can I mention a couple of things quickly? Just going to check that... But I feel we've covered a lot of ground. Banksy. No, just kidding. Bowie. We didn't talk Bowie. He was a fan of yours. Obviously you were a fan of his. He was a friend of mine. He was a friend. Was he married to Rehman at that point? Yes.

So romance wasn't on the cards? No. That would be a good scoop. That would be brilliant. If you want to go there, I'm ready. No. Was there any chemistry? Yes, lots of chemistry.

We got on really well. An attractive man? Yep. And I was very attractive. And we were very, very good friends. Was electricity flowing back and forth between you? Creative electricity, yeah, definitely. Did you collaborate?

No, he wanted to do a song with me, but I couldn't sing, I can't sing and he said I've got a song you can sing, I know a song that you can sing, I've got one, I've written one. That would have been amazing. And I never did it, I know, I can't sing, I'm not doing that, I should have done it, it would have been good fun but I didn't. So. All right here's the last one because we're wrapping things up, unless you know I could keep going, I don't want one, because we're wrapping things up. And let's see, you know, I can keep going. I don't want to take the piss there, as they say. Well, so we were talking about, because I want to be positive.

In one of your first pieces, actually in a book you wrote called Six Turkish Tales in 1987, in the front of the piece is a quotation from Edvard Munch. Yeah, cool. Do you remember what it was? I shouldn't like to be without suffering. How much of my art

I owe to suffering, right? Yeah. So there's that. But then at the same time, you've said something like, if I could avoid all my emotional volatility, I'd give up all my art for that. Yeah, I think I probably said that in around when I was probably a very low ed. I probably just had enough of it all then. But so that wasn't that's not your final position on it. Definitely not. Because because it things go full circle, don't they decide? Like some people commit suicide usually do it for chemical reasons. You know, not emotional reasons.

Because everyone gets sad, everyone gets fucked, because everyone gets sad, everyone gets fucked over, everyone gets sad, but they don't all go and throw themselves off a bridge, right? And I always have this thing that if you can just get through it, just get through it, just get through that last little bit and you come out the other side, you're going to be okay. You are going to be okay. You are. And I think with me in my life when I felt really low and really like at my lowest ebb or whatever, really bad, I just hold on a little bit and everything turns around. Everything comes back to fruition. Everything is, you know, worth living for. It's just about having the strength and the confidence to just hang in and keep going.

It sounds so corny, but I know that definitely now after the cancer, because if I'd have given up when I had the cancer, just thought, oh, I'm going to die, I probably would have died. But I didn't and I wouldn't. Part of me just said, no, you just keep going on, you just keep going. And here I still am. So I'm not complaining. What I'm doing is using the stuff that I've had as material, as a cathartic thing, to keep going, keep myself going and not be ashamed with it and understand that this is my life and I've lived it, I'm living it. So any mistakes that I've made or things that I've said or things that I've lived it, I'm living it. So any mistakes that I've made or things that I've said or things that I've done when I was younger, I did them. The important thing is not to do them again, to understand why I did them. You know life

should get better not worse, that's the thing to keep going for. How is your health now, like your prognosis, do you keep going back and checking and what do they say? How is your health now, like your prognosis? Do you keep going back and checking? And what do they say? I have to check every six months. But my last one was really good. So I've got another year to go. Then I'm like five years. If I go five years, that's really amazing. That's a big landmark. Yes, massive.

Milestone. Cool. Thanks so much, Tracy. No, it's okay. I expected something a little bit more raucous, a bit more, I don't know. It's been very calm. Raucous? I've listened to lots of your podcasts. Well, keep that bit in. You have listened to them. I think you mentioned that when we were at the palace. Yeah, you were surprised. I've listened to like nearly all of them and I love them. They're really good I there was a moment where I thought you were drawing me and I was like, oh my god She's gonna do a drawing of me

That would be amazing if you did a doodle of me, right? Like if I'm not gonna walk off with this obviously holding a piece of art But if I walked off with that would it be like worth thousands and thousands? Oh, we'd call the police actually Yeah, you wouldn't say that. I think you took something by accident with that? Would it be like worth thousands and thousands? We'd call the police actually, yeah. Sure, you wouldn't say that I think you took something by accident? No, we'd get you arrested. Geez, you've really gone to the other side. Yeah, we'd get you locked up in...

Gone to the dark side. No, we're going to get you locked up in Margate police station. If you saw... I'm holding a card, like an index card, like a watercolour paper it's got, a drawing, a painting, so is it... what is it, watercolour? Yeah, good. So if I... I'm not going so is it, what is it, watercolour? Yeah, gosh. So, if I, I'm not going to steal it, obviously. No, you're not. But if I did steal it and I tried to sell it, how much would it go for?

That's a hand-painted Tracy Emin. That you're holding in your hand just for the people that can't see it. So cavalierly. Fingerprints all over. It'd be more than 10,000 easily. It's not really fair to talk about the value of things like that because it's like the price, what's it, Anstie Gormley suggested, you know, the price of everything, the value of nothing.

That's right. Well, that's an old, let's ask a while, is it? Or someone originally said it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but he said it yesterday. That's why I remembered it. You know, it's like what I do with my art is, I mean, this is all I've ever done. It's made art. That's all I've ever done. So you value it. You put a price on it like that. Yeah, it's been very crass. Yeah, but it's my life.

Art is something sacred. And as pretentious as that might sound to some people it's true to me and I live my life doing what I do because I believe in it and also do a lot of good with it now turn it around yeah giving back yeah I should start giving back yeah maybe I keep meaning to it and I just can Get around to it. Yeah, can't seem to get around to it. All right, cool. Thank you. Thank you.

All right, guys. Hi, it's me. I'm back, Louis Theroux. Hope you enjoyed that. I did. What a pleasure to speak to someone who is, well, just been through extraordinary things and we'll talk about them. And if you want more of that, check out Strangeland, her book. Its level of excoriating, self-eviscerating, I mean, just hideous detail is off the charts. So if you have an appetite for that, which I do, you will find it utterly transfixing, you know, obviously in a dark

and highly traumatising way. I have to be careful because if someone opens the door slightly on harrowing sort of abjection, self-sabotaging and kind of self-destructive behaviour, then I'll stride through that. And so I kind of have to be reined in a little bit. I hope it came across okay. And Tracy's now in a very different place, obviously, and you can tell whether it's because of growing up or because of her health situation. She's resistant to dwelling in the dark places during the conversation. She is leading a positive life, which I will do one day, all being well. Carl Andre, another artist who came up, it was a name that was new to me.

I've done a little research He's an American minimalist artist best known for his large public artworks and in 1985 his wife contemporary artist Anna Mendieta Fell from their apartment window and died He was acquitted of a second-degree murder charge which caused uproar in the art world if you want to learn more about that There's a podcast called death of an Artist about their relationship. This was also a Louis Theroux podcast first, our first artist, correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, people in the arts are artists, but figurative and pictorial art is a different thing. So I think I did okay, don't you? Like I mentioned Rothko and Bacon, like I knew what I was talking about. So Hockney, give me a call.

Damien Hirst, give me a call, I'm here. Banksy, he'd be a dream guest, wouldn't he? I'm ready. Also, just to say this, I've got an A level in art. Did you know that? I'm a talented artist. I say that with a little bit of irony.

I got a C at art A level, but I do like to paint and draw a little bit. And one of my few regrets in life is that I didn't do a foundation course. Not that I would have got in, but I would have loved to have tried. I feel like there's a life in which I am an artist, you know. Nevertheless, here I am, very much not an artist. Or am I? No. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit Spotify.com slash resources. Okay, I think we're done. So credits.

The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHAUS production for Spotify.