The Louis Theroux Podcast - S3 EP5: Katie Price on her turbulent romances, cosmetic surgery and dressing up with Boris Johnson

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Louis sits down with glamour model, bestselling author and all-round media personality, Katie Price. Joining Louis in the Spotify studio, Katie reflects on her turbulent romantic life, her complicated relationship with cosmetic surgery and dressing up as clowns with Boris Johnson.    Warnings: Strong language, frank discussions of sex and other adult content, including conversations about addiction and suicide.     Links/Attachments:  ‘Katie Price Exclusive with Piers Morgan’  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1R-2h9k-U&t=152s     ‘This is Me’, Katie Price (2024)  https://www.bonnierbooks.co.uk/books/john-blake-publishing/this-is-me/     ‘Being Jordan: My Story’, Katie Price (2004)  https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/products/being-jordan-book-katie-price-9781844541324?sku=GOR000387198&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwmaO4BhAhEiwA5p4YL7U_ZzCOj4UjJdTlsh-vw2jE-eezcZzgGcG8JoeMD0gDr53SYkWg1BoCzMgQAvD_BwE     ‘The Last Word’, Amy Price (2023)  https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/the-last-word-amy-price?variant=40244984873038       Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Researcher: Rosie Hough  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mike number one, Mike number one, isn't this a lot of fun? Hello, Louis Threw here. Welcome to my podcast called The Joe Rogan Experience. Not funny. Today's guest is glamour model, author and all-around media personality, Katie Price. Katie's life over the last 30 years has played out very much in the public eye, a fixture of the tabloids, a star of several reality TV shows, and a writer of arguably too many

autobiographies, eight in fact. Katie became a household name in the late 90s, when aged 18, and under her pseudonym, Jordan, given to her by her agent, I think, or someone in her agent's office, she was pictured topless on page three of The Sun. After that she became something of a tabloid fixture, often photographed out on the razz, accompanied by stories commenting on her looks, or reporting on a string of string of high profile relationships, including her marriage to Peter Andre. Notable ex-boyfriends include, but are not limited to, Dane Bowers, who was part of R&B boy band Another Level in the late 90s, rugby player Danny Cipriani and cage fighter Alex

Reid. She's currently in a relationship with JJ Slater, who is 15 years younger than her, not that that's a big deal. There's also a guy called Kieran who comes up a lot in the chat, you can feel free to google him. That sounds like an interesting relationship. Katie's been married three times and has five children, including her eldest son Harvey, from her relationship with footballer Dwight York. This one was recorded in mid-June 2024 at Spotify HQ in London. She came down from her house which she's dubbed the Mucky Mansion and which she's since been evicted from I believe. It's in Sussex. There's a reality show on Channel 4 by the same name, which follows her attempts to clean it up. She appeared with no warning at the studio door without anyone with her. There was no entourage, but her sister arrived a little later. Why am I interviewing her? Well,

because she's a reality TV legend. Someone who's been in the public eye more or less without interruption for years and managed it, I won't say like always with the utmost dignity, but certainly with the utmost sense of drama and in such a way that it's captivated the nation's eyeballs. She's also been through so much, whether it's drugs, romantic heartbreak, financial issues, personal trauma, and she speaks about all of it with such openness and honesty. In particular, she seemed to be under the shadow when we spoke of her breakup with Kieran Hayler. She was obviously here to promote something, which was her latest autobiography, but I think that was most preoccupying her. The idea of this

betrayal that she felt she'd experienced in the relationship with Kieran and her attempts to reclaim her career following a series of personal and financial setbacks. Warnings, strong language, adult themes including sex and banjo strings, and discussion around substance abuse and suicide. But first, this. Take a seat, get comfortable. Only one request. Go on. A cup of tea.

Nice cup of tea. Milk, no sugar, please. Thank you. Love it. Go on. A cup of tea. Nice cup of tea. Milk, no sugar, please. Thank you. Let's have some water, Luffy. Love it. Where have you just come from? Erm, West Sussex.

Do you... Are you still living in the so-called Mucky Mansion? Oh, I've still got the house, but I don't live there. You don't live there? That's the papers, all this, and they just drive me there. Is it all right to call it that? I always call it Mucket. I bloody hate that place. Really? I went there yesterday, so I've got a car there.

I'm having it all read out, and so I met the guys there. And as soon as I get there, it's like noise. Like, just get me out of this place. Are you still doing the series about refurbing it for Channel 4? No, they wanted to. I just can't bear being in that house. Why? It's haunted for one, like generally is haunted. And you know when you walk in a place and it just feels heavy on you?

I think that house is cursed. I've had nothing but dramas, trouble, bad luck in that house. And now in the new house it's like oh newly so large you know just feels it but I have had dramas in the house it's not even a job generally have and I go back then I look outside and it just looks sad the house just looks sad yeah but you must have had some good times in there not really no are we so shall I start I You can just talk. Are you recording? Are you recording? Just go for it. Shall I close this?

Yeah, then we'll say hello to her. Oh, my first cup of tea this morning. Love it. Yeah, so what was I saying? I was going to say thank you for joining me on the podcast. Oh, that's alright. And you're a perfect guest because you're a great talker, but also a nightmare guest because you've done so much.

Have I? I mean, where do we begin? Do you know what? I have no idea. I just say I'm 46 and I feel like I've been in a washing machine. The only way I can describe it is I've now, I'm older, now got the knowledge and it's like a reset button for me and I'm still hungry for it. But Jesus, I've been through the mill, I think just even like when I started my career, you know I was 17, training to be a nurse, didn't even, you know, then I started the modelling.

Yeah, growing up in Brighton with your mum and your stepdad, stepdad Paul, Yeah, growing up in Brighton with your mum and your stepdad, stepdad Paul, Mum Amy. And Paul's a builder. What's mum? Well, my mum, funny enough, she used to work in the bank. She was Maggie Thatcher's PA at some point. I mean, my mum, she's just... Your mum was Maggie Thatcher's PA? Yeah, at one point. Did she give you any inside info about Maggie Thatcher? I haven't even asked her to be honest.

Come on, aren't you very curious? Do you know what, one thing I stay away from is politics and religion because you'll never win. You know what, while we're on that, just because I know we're going to... Here we go, and I'm not even going to know the answer for God. No, no, because one of the things that came up in the research was that you went to Italy as part of a group, a party, to stay at the house or the villa of Yevgeny Lebedev. Lord Lebedev of Siberia, I think, is that his name? Anna Yeah, that was a random one. Mason But Russian heritage, and it was you, and among

others was Dame Joan Collins was there? Yeah. Boris Johnson and his wife? Marina, the previous wife? Yeah. Pixie Lott and her other half. Pixie Lott, the pop star? Yeah, and there was an actress, I can't even remember her, there was literally 12 of us.

It was the most random weekend ever. What was the occasion? Why were you invited? The background is that... Because he was fascinated with me and I've never... Who was? Erm... Evgeny. Evgeny Lebedev. And he wanted me to... and I'm thinking, I don't even... why? What? He's an international man of mystery because he's Russian heritage, his dad was in the KGB, he bought the evening standards and the allegation that was made was that, which he obviously denies, is that he was attempting to influence the establishment and may even have had connections with Putin and the Russian establishment and was burrowing his way into the heart of power in the UK.

Whether or not that's true, you know, I have no idea. I don't know, but all I remember is I turned up, put on a private jet with all these people, not Boris, he went separate, and we were there for three days, or was it four days, three or four days in his house. We all had breakfast together every day, lunch together, dinner together and all party together. And it was the most random weekend and I'm like, little me is here. But he just liked the fact that I was so down to earth normal. If Katie did? Yeah.

Boris flew easy jet while Katie took advantage of the quote, free flowing champagne on the private jet from London and the pure Russian vodka on offer to guests before dinner. She called Lebedev you gov. I don't know if that's true, is it? Where did they get all that from? I've never even spoken about it. This is the quote I like, and announced that, champagne and pricey don't mix,

then lifted her top to expose her breasts. That definitely didn't happen. Turning to face the foreign secretary as she did so. Joan Collins said this is a hand grenade too far, reportedly, one of Lebedev's four strong team of armed guards headed by an ex SAS soldier escorted Price from the dinner table. She was not seen again over the weekend. That's not true at all. So not true. Is that not true? How disappointing.

Not one bit of truth in that. What's the truth then? The truth is we all had fun. Really? So not true. Is that not true? How disappointing. Not one bit of truth in there. What's the truth then? The truth is we all had fun. Really? It was, the thing is I like to, we're all born and we all die and what happens in between, I just treat everyone the same. We've obviously got different journeys, different lives, different stories, but we're all human.

I don't get starstruck by anyone and I try and treat people the same. Did you say anything to Boris? Did you and Boris Johnson have any? Oh yeah we were all having a drink in there. What were you talking about? Actually we were talking about how I'd either go to his or mine for a roast dinner with his missus funny enough and then again he had this dressing up room upstairs and loads of fancy dress clothes, and me and Boris went up there and we come down. I think we both dressed as clowns. As clowns?

Yeah, or something. We were just all mucking about. But it was such, I think, because everyone had their own power in different ways. I think you were just there and it was all treated equally. Yeah. So, the flashing the breasts didn't happen? No, that's so, I think that's just such a predictable saying people would say. I think people have had enough of seeing my boobs. I mean, Google it and you can see it. But it's not like I walk around like saying, here, do you need to look? That's tacky. I don't do that.

No, well, I mean, when you were interviewed by Piers Morgan, I'm not trying to make a thing out of this. Do you know the one I'm talking about? I probably did. It wasn't a life story. in the younger days. You were talking about splitting up from Peter Andre, I think you'd given him an exclusive to talk about it and then he said, the word that comes to mind is slapper, do you remember? Probably, I've been called everything, Louis. But Piers, I actually like Piers though, like this is another thing, some people are like, oh, and I'm like, because I met Piers

when I lived in Maersfield, he lived in Ux Upfield and he played cricket and stuff. I think he was the editor of, was it the Mirror? Mm-hmm, back in the day. So I go back with Piers before Piers became, like blew up as players. And it's the same with a lot of people. Okay, they might have their presence of what they do,

but when you get to know him one-on-one, I actually quite like Piers, he's quite funny. But I don't know, you know, to comment on him when he's a presenter and the comments he makes, but me one-to-one, like if you have a cup of tea or whatever, it's different we started by talking about going back growing up and i want to get back to that but i'd like to just i am very random because no no i like random i don't want to just talk about this that and then

you'll be like why are you talking about that i like random i could be overly sometimes i'm too focused i don't want to be too i want to jump to jump around. Do it. Can I throw some stats at you? You can do whatever you like. Okay, well, just at random. Well, for example, you've written eight autobiographies. Which seems like seven too many. 52 books in total. Really? Erm, but obviously I don't sit there and write them. That is a different talent. No. And you've got a new one out called...

Oh my god, I should know. This is me. This is me. Well done. And then you've got the first one. I've read that one. What, the first one? I've written the new one, and I read the first one.

Oh, have you read it? I haven't read all eight autobiographies. I read the new one and the first one. Completely different. Very different. The new one's like a monologue. It's you just off the cuff. This is what's going on in my life.

You've been through a lot recently. In this one, for people in Radio Land, I'm holding up Being Jordan, my story from the very beginning, which was published in, first published in paperback, 2005. But there's more in that first book, I think, because you're younger and there was less legals and all of that, I think step up. You have legals that read, go through everything. So obviously liable cases, this and that.

So in the later, there was a lot they did take out. Of the new one. Yeah. Well, one of the things we're really jumping around with. Which I hate, but what can I do? Okay, so this is changing gear now. You'll get used to me, I'm very... No, because one of the things that the new one was advertised as doing was revealing the fact that a celebrity had sexually assaulted or maybe raped. Did. Is the term sexually assaulted or raped?

Raped? Can I use that term? Yeah, it did. Someone and that you were going to name who it was and then you haven't named who it was? They know who it is but they took it out. You know who it is. Um, jeez. But so many instances and with this book, the new one, I wanted to put all my Priory notes in it as well but all my notes didn't make it, they just got bits out of it. But then I put all my ADHD assessment. When did you get your Priory notes because you were admitted to the Priory which is a,

yeah because, what's the term? Is it a psychiatric, I think this thing I've never been in there for rehab. It's basically a private residential psychiatric unit for recovery from, it's usually exhaustion, alcohol, drugs, anorexia, the whole range of stuff. There's anorexic there, alcohol, anorexic, depression, suicide, all of that. What were you in for? Severe Traumatic Rehabilitation PTSD. I've never been in there for an addiction. It was the first, it's the only time you've been in there? Twice. Twice. When was it? So what two times? Six years ago and then it

was, I think it was three years ago. Wow. And yeah, this is another thing why I was important to put in the book because I remember at the time the press was like, oh she's in there for drugs and like coke and whatever and I've never been in there for addiction ever in my life but that's the media so people always say you've been in there for rehab I wish I did it was cheaper it's more expensive to go in as a general patient it's like eight grand a week What was going on with you at that time? Leaving to one side because I know there's a background I know you've been open about to do with stuff that happened in childhood as as a teenager, this other incident involving a celebrity.

I think most of it was, it was more the husband at the time, cheating on me, Kieran, but it's all public out there, two of my best friends. Kieran, what's his surname? Hayler. Who was a bodybuilder and stripper? Stripper, yeah. I get it all confused. Stripper, all confused. There's a chapter in the new book called Dear Cocaine. Yes, that was a powerful one. Can I tell you honestly, it sounded to me, you say I'm not an addict, but I've self-medicated, it sounded to me like you were an addict. Yeah, people can see that there's a massive thing between self-medicating and very similar. It's semantic, but you were doing it too much and you weren't in control of how much you were doing.

That was when I started committing suicide. And I'd been told that, now you can confirm or deny this, No, you'd go for it, no. that there was an intervention and people said, Katie, you've got a problem, get into the priory. Yeah, they did, yeah. When I was getting ill and I wouldn't tell people inside, I'm like, I need help, not with the coke the coke I need help this is going wrong in my life this is that I can't handle this I can't handle I'm having the affairs and I'd still have to go to work

put on the mask yeah I'm fine everyone I'm fine and I wasn't and really I should have asked for help early not because of the coke because that wasn't a problem then but how I was feeling it's like a little tap on the shoulder like a voice, like, ha ha, I've got asked you. And then when I took it, it would block everything out. And then when I found out about him cheating again, because in my second pregnancy,

because he cheated on me in the first as well. Who with? Two of my best friends, who are 25 years. Oh my God. Then it was the nanny. Are you serious? No, just constantly, constantly. And there's only so much you can take and you're about to have a baby.

It's just confusing. So I had all of that. So I moved house into the Mucky Mansion and I loved the house I had before but because he had sex everywhere in there, it was just noise in my head wherever I went. So I bought the Mucky Mansion and that was the downfall of everything. So the proper breakdown started in that house. And when you're

that ill, that's oppressed, everything is noise and you don't communicate with people. Next thing you know you're getting this bill, that bill, this bill and you ignore, you ignore, you ignore and I'm dealing with the affairs. And it all just becomes so much. Who were you living with at that time? Kiram. So you were spill and you ignore, you ignore, you ignore and I'm dealing with the affairs just and it all just becomes so much. Who were you living with at that time? Kiram. So you were still living together? Kept taking him back because I was weak, weak. It's one of the patterns in your, in that first book. Men. It's extraordinary, like basically you'll be with someone you say like, like for example Dane Bowers, who you've described as the love

of your life, singer who was in the boy band Another Level and then did a collab with Posh Spice, Victoria Beckham. And you talk about how much you loved him and how devoted you were. And then what struck me was that when things seemed to be going quite well with Dane Bowers, you're then thinking, oh, but what about Ralph Schumacher, the sports car driver, right? Yeah, it was after all that, yeah. And then you go off and you say, I'm going to Miami for a couple of days with some friends,

and you go off and try and hook up with Ralph Schumacher. I don't mean that to sound judgmental. No, no, no, no. It's just really odd, you're like- No, that's after Dane had cheated on me. Having had this sort of weird thing with Ralph Schumacher where he flies you out to some other place where he won't try on you You won't have sex with you. You slept with him as in you actually went to sleep

But he never touched you? No, only in public Strange But I know the reason What is it? I can't say, I can tell you off it Is it to do with where his real interests lie? Probably, yeah.

Sports cars. Yeah, no. With big engines. And big goosesticks. Can we use that, Millie? Just joking. Yeah, you can. But then you say that with Ice the Gladiator,

who's like one of the fellas that you're with, first couple of times you go to sleep with him, he has problems with his gear stick. Yeah he did. Did I mention, I can't even remember my first book. Did you actually read your book? Well, you know what about, I've done loads since then, that is so funny. Yeah you said that. The other thing that comes up a lot.

You can tell I was young when I wrote these, because now, would I be as... yeah, I probably would. Would you be as open? Yeah, I probably would. Every time you get a boyfriend, do you describe what his penis looks like? That must be the age. Do you know what? I actually can't even remember, even if I try... I can't even remember what they all look like now. You just forget. Well, I mean, that's probably, you say that so ruefully, but maybe that's for the best. I think there was a 19 year old tanning

salon assistant, a toy boy. The only good thing I have to say about him was he has the biggest willy I've ever seen. It's a pity he didn't have a clue how to use it. Does that help jog your memory? I remember Matt, yeah. Then there's this one, out of all the lovers I've had, some of the most adventurous sex was with Dane, Dane Bowers. True, he had the smallest willy, and his body could have done with some serious toning, but I loved him. Warren had the best physique, and I did miss his powerful and muscular body, and if I'm honest, his bigger willy. But Dane was definitely a better lover. Do you know, when you read that, you're joking my man because if you

asked me them questions I wouldn't even know now. Do you put that in because you think readers will be interested, which I'm sure they are, because it's a little thrill every time you read about how big someone or small someone's willy is, and also the use of the term willy is oddly emasculating. I know, I would say willy now. What would you say now? Like cock, wouldn't you? Cock or dick, really? But do you know what's weird? When I look at that book, that is the times. And I used to do like Loaded magazine, FH Showman. You used to do interviews of that.

You talk about that. So I think that was more that era and there wasn't so much legals and you could say what you like. Whereas now, I wouldn't, I think I've matured in that way that I wouldn't need to talk like that now. Really what a shame. Well I would around the dinner table with friends. I know what you mean. I feel a bit bad even putting it out there. No do it. It's my life. Dane Bowers might be a fan of the podcast and he's listening to this hearing his man who had called... He's alright Dane. I've spoken to him ever since then. But I didn't say he was crap in bed, though, did I?

No, you said he was really good. There you go. It's not the size, it's the chemistry, I think. Um... Have you noticed with my books, it's... My downfall, I've had to learn all this in therapy, is men. Because I jump from one to the other to the other. It's like I need that neediness, and then I end up in a toxic relationship, narcissist or gaslighting. The pull quote is um I think you're

pregnant with Harvey I really hope that having this baby would make me stronger I've always been someone who craves love from men and I've never felt happy unless I've been in a relationship. I think it was the love, the validation, the need is, but now I know my validation. It's completely different. That's what I mean. I wish I knew what I knew now to go back there. Because there was no therapy, no one would know anything and I didn't give myself a break in between relationships because it was like, oh I need to get another one. It's nuts. One of the things that your mum says, she came out with a book last year, is if your eight autobiographies weren't enough,

did I say eight? Maybe it's seven, I can't remember, but that your mum, Amy Price, wrote a book last year called The Last Word. She actually thought she was going to die and not survive it, so we do take the piss out of her now because she has survived it, and there's stuff in her book she put that she wanted to get off her chest but now she's lived to tell the town we like are you gutted mum because she survived you thought you'd die. Is she on the other side of it then? Yeah. She had a lung condition what's it called pulmonary something like that? Idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis it's similar to COPD. What's that what's COPD? COPD is normally what smokers and that get, but you can still get a bit of oxygen

through. Whereas my mum's, it's scarring of the lung. You can't get any oxygen through and it just scars. But my mum's, my family have been so healthy, don't smoke. And she thinks she got it. Normally people who work with asbestos or farms and that normally they get it. And she went to India a few years ago, wanted to, she had it in her head, she wanted to help kids and the schooling, she only went for like three months, but she said she stayed in a place where they had like damp droplets and all of that,

and they think she might have got it from there. But she's all right, she's doing okay? She's got one lung now. One's better than none. Exactly, and she moans again now, so we're like, you're alright then mum. And she's moving the eye. If she's moaning, she's breathing. Exactly.

To the outside world, Katie's her own worst enemy. This is your mum. I agree. A grown woman who should know better than to set the scene again and again for her own demise through failed relationships with inappropriate men. A self-absorbed surgical quest for the perfect body, wild spending and even wild departing. The thing that she also goes on to say, I can't find the quote though, is that after you've been through, did we mention, I think

you've had 16, it's been reported that you've had 16 boob jobs. If you Google it, I think it's more, but Google seems to know more than me. My team said 16, although some of those are going up, some of them are coming down. Like it's not all... But I can give you some insight, in two weeks they're going down again. You're a 34H right now. Yes. That's just a number in a letter, it means nothing to me.

It is, but they're going smaller in two weeks. Why is that? It's too big. Too big. It's terrible, isn't it? But the point your mum makes, which I think is quite. Why is that? Too big. Too big. It's terrible, isn't it? But the point your mum makes, which I think is quite insightful, is that when you'd had a problem with a man... She always thinks I have surgery.

Often your reaction is to have surgery, almost like, you know, other people might do comfort eating or go on a binge of some kind, and yours is right, I'm going back under the knife. I don't know what it is. Do you think that's true? Like mine used to be, if I was having problems with my girlfriend, I would tidy my CD or record collection. Really? Because it was control. And I was only afterwards, this is going back years, afterwards I'd realise, oh that was a coping mechanism, you know, it's a way of dealing with stress. But for

you maybe surgery represented something. It's, I think deep down there is something. I always said I haven't got body dysmorphia, but I, there's definitely something. I don't know what it is, but even before I was a model, I always wanted my boobs done, always. And then when I was 18, I had them done. So I've always liked that look, but I've never looked in the mirror and thought, oh, I'm pretty and whatever. And when people show me old pictures, I'm like, oof. So there must be something...

Even old ones of you... It's quite common to look in the mirror and think, oh, I look crap. I certainly think that a lot. But sometimes I look at old photos and think, oh, I wasn't bad-looking back in those days. No, I don't look at that at all. I think rough. That was me completely natural, natural boobs everything. Right, but a very beautiful young woman. See I don't think so, isn't that bad? If there's something to tweak I'll do it, but I can see girls when I think, oh that is too much, and sometimes

in the past I have looked in the mirror and thought, okay, oh no, that's, you've gone too far, just get it back out again. So I can recognise when it's too much, but I'm like, I don't know, I just, I don't know, that's another thing I have to get to grasp with myself about the surgery thing. I don't know if it's body dysmorphia

or what I'm trying to gain out of it. Do you ever consider whether... I don't mind getting old, I haven't got a problem with that. Because you know, your hands, your neck, everything gets all wrinkly. I don't know what it is. I'm not afraid of getting old. I like getting older because you become wiser. But with the face and I just think, oh, if there's something to tweak, it's just easy to do. Have you had much done on your face? I'm think of there's something to tweak. It's just easy to do Have you had much done on your face? I'm having a full facelift in end of July. It looks fine. Yeah, but I want it like that All right, I know I don't understand because everyone's like Kate you're fine I just want it but you look quite natural at the moment. I like, this is the thing, I like looking natural.

I don't, I hate wearing makeup. Just got a tiny bit on now because I'm on your camera, but I never ever wear makeup unless I'm working. I hate wearing makeup. If we said, if we said, because if we want to leave, like there's obviously a narrative which involves a series of men who've behaved in different ways badly, either by being unfaithful, by being coercive, abusive, but leaving that to one side, let's talk to

you about your sense of your relationships and the extent to which you feel you might have not been everything you could be, right? So I've just done the domestic abuse course and it was really interesting and I can see a pattern in my relationships and I asked the question, I must have made them like it, I must have made them controlling, I must have made them jealous, this is what I'm thinking. But now I've learned it's the wrong men that I've picked. And a lot of men don't like independent women, because they're not in control. And I'm very independent. And for me, it's a safety thing for me to know I'm earning the money and I can pay the bills.

I don't like to rely on anyone else because that's the way it is. But yeah, doing this domestic abuse course has made me know about boundaries now. I never knew about boundaries in relationship. I didn't know what red flags were. I didn't know what early signs of abuse was. What kind of boundaries do you mean? Boundaries like, course it's all right if you want to go and see your friends. boundaries like, of course it's all right if you want to go and see your friends, like, of course it's all right if you want to go and spend time with your family, it's of course it's all right if you want to have nights with your kids on your own, of course it's all right if you want to go out with your... just things, boundaries. If you get somebody

who's like, who are you messaging? Show me your phone, I want all your passwords, all things like that, it's not normal, that's just all red flags and stuff and to know that they're just trying to teach me what a normal healthy relationship is and I haven't ever been in a normal healthy relationship. I've been burned, I've been ripped off, I've been walked over, people have taken advantage of my kindness as a weakness, I've hit the most rock bottom I could ever have hit in my life, committed suicide but I survived it and to help yourself, it doesn't matter how many people say you've got to do this, you do that, you've got to want to do it yourself. I've had to do a full circle and I'm so positive now that I look back and it makes me like,

oh, sick, like how I was. I never want to get in that place. When I look at my primary notes, I'm like, oh my God, that was me. I was so weird because I reflect on it now how different I am. I know all the triggers. I got rid of people out of my life who I knew weren't good for me and communication is massive. You know, if you're getting bills or you know, I had the bankruptcy, they were really on my case, all of this, like, and it become noise. But the day you

start communicating, that's all it takes, you don't have to do a lot, just little bits of communicate, then it's like a seed that's been watered, it people communicating with who? Bankruptcies, bills, tax people. Well just on that yeah I was confused you must have made so much money over the years. I've made loads, millions. I'm still making loads. I used to get a lot for OK! magazines like 80 to 120 grand a shoot now you're lucky they offer you five grand, well it's not worth it. OK OK magazine. It's all different now. How much did you get for your wedding to Peter Andre? It was just under a million. Because it was reported that you got more than... I always got more than Pete. My contracts were different. Wait, I thought I wasn't going to say that. Did Pete get it? I thought you were married.

You get the same... Surely it's all in one pot? No. What? Because if I did a photo shoot with him, we'd have separate contracts. Why? Because I was worth more. But didn't you share everything? Oh we paid bills and that but... Different bank accounts? It was always my house, you know, I never bought a house with him, never. How much did he get for getting married to you then? I think with the marriage we put a lot of that money into the wedding that I didn't even see on the day because it was okay shoot and I was pulled here there and everywhere, I had to do pictures for the magazine. But no as a rule because he'd just come out the jungle and who was he? He'd come out of I'm a

celebrity get me out of here, which is where you met. Yeah, but I was already established. He'd met me and it was his lucky day. So we always had separate contracts. There's no way I'm splitting half and half, no thanks. My point was you got paid more than David and Victoria Beckham, who also sold their wedding photos. I don't know, if you think me and Pete were on the cover literally every week. They were good paydays, they were. Yeah. And you probably make a pretty good living now. How many OnlyFans subscribers do you have? I have no idea.

This company run it for me. I just do the pitches because I absolutely love it. Can you say how much you make from the OnlyFans? It's different. Like, it depends what I do, what content I do, when I can be bothered. I know that sounds awful. But you've got the subscriptions, so each month there must be a baseline of how much is coming in? To be honest, I don't even look because it goes into a different account, so it makes loads.

I mean, anyone, you can be someone who's known and make 30 grand a month. I think with mine, it's a lot of my old school fans. People in Radio Land who don't know what it is, it's a subscription based, everyone's going to know, it's a subscription based social media platform where in order to see someone's content you have to pay a monthly subscription. Yeah, I mean it has got the tacky side, don't get me wrong. It's got a side, I think some people do porn and all of that on it. Or you've got it where, say myself, because I do TV and I've got a family and I've always done my glamour shoots, I don't go, Nate, I don't show anything.

But although it's still... Nothing topless. Do you consider what you did back in the day to have been porn? People could say it was but I never never done all of that to me. It was just like it was choppers I think you said you never page three. Yeah, you did page three a lot You did a lot of the men's magazines the lad magazines you did the loaded FHM You never did a bottom half. No only the American Playboy, but my legs were 5 to 12 should I say or midnight because I'm just Did you ever did a bottom half naked? No, only the American Playboy, but my legs were closed. Why is that? Five to 12, should I say, or midnight. Because I'm just...

For me personally, I wouldn't do that for my family. I think you either want to do that or you don't, and I never wanted to do that. So, like, in terms of... I'm really weird to work out, by the way, because it's like, I would say I'd stand there and do topless, but then I've got morals on a different way. I'm really confusing to work out by the way because it's like I would say I'd stand there and do topless But then I've got morals on a different way. I'm really confusing to work out because there's things I've done Yeah, I've done playboy and I was naked but yet I wouldn't do a naked shoot. That's quite normal

Not to burst your bubble. Yeah to have to yeah to have like a I don't know what it but I'm still the same person You've got just different moral code, you know, like different some things are comfortable some things you like some things you don't know what, but I'm still the same person. You've got just different moral, you know, like different, some things are comfortable, some things you like, some things you don't like. One thing I'm confused by is how you managed to go bankrupt, given how much your earning power was. Where was all the money going? It's when I met my ex-husband, it all went downhill. Which one?

Kieran. It's all coming back to Kieran. You were with Kieran for six years. Of how? 2012 to 2018. Got engaged after two months of dating. That's too fast. Tell me about it. No, not engaged. I got married after five weeks. OK. Remember as soon as I met Kieran, he started an affair with my best friend of 25 years, three months in and I was pregnant. Like, it was just horrific. How quickly did

you say Kieran started a relationship? Like three months. Three months? Yeah. But he destroyed my best friend's marriage as well. I don't talk to her. Who was your best friend? She was Jane. I'm still friends with Derek. He's still friends with the family. Derek's the husband? Yeah, they split up because of it. Yeah. It's such a shame because I love Jane. How did you find out that Kieran was having an affair with Jane? I called them on holiday on the sun beds when we're in Cape Verde a holiday that I paid for us all to go on the four of you the two couples and the kids and what happened? basically I was playing uno with the kids and I was pregnant and I asked him to get

me a hot chocolate. He said, I'll go to the bar. And then hour went by two hours and I thought, I don't know, I've just thought this bit weird, but I thought, oh, we'll be back in a minute. A kid's toy kept going off in my room, waking me up, this kid's toy. And then I'd look at the time and I'd be like, this is taking the piss. So I went outside to the security and I said, have you seen, is Jane in her place? Cause her villa was opposite.

He went, no, she's not in there. And I said, right. I said, can you just keep an eye on my villa for me? Cause the kids are asleep. And then I went to the beach bar on the front walking through there my shorts and people were saying to me you're right I said has anyone seen my husband and then there was a table full of people and they pointed towards the sea said oh we saw him walk that way and I just knew I just knew before I got there and I remember walking

to the beach you know when they stack sunbeds up and I could see two figures on it and I stood there, I got close enough to like, hell I am with you here, for about 30 seconds watching them kissing, he had his pants down, she was sucking him off basically and then I remember getting her hair and I went I fucking knew it and pulled her back and I remember hearing a click I thought I'd snapped her neck and I looked at her for a minute and thought fuck what have I done? Then I started punching her going I fucking knew it but then it was so weird in my head because it's like I'm punching my best friend in the face it's such a weird, surreal thing.

And then he was doing his pants up. And I remember it was this scene out of my best friend's wedding when Julia Roberts is running after Kamara Dears and she's running after the guy or something like that. And I went, you're never seeing this baby again. I knew it. And then Jane went, what, you're pregnant? You just couldn't make it up. So we had to do two weeks of that holiday You're never seeing this baby again, I knew it. And then Jane went, what, you're pregnant?

You just couldn't make it up. So we had to do two weeks of that holiday because it was new then when people were going to Cape 30, they only had flights on a Thursday. Jane's husband was due out to fly out the next day because of work. And then he's like, I've done nothing wrong, I've done nothing.

They just both fucking lied to me until we got home. Even though you literally ripped her mouth off? Yes. Oh, it was all these bollocks. And then when we got home, I made him do a lie detector test. He failed three of them. That's how I got the truth out and the truth out about my other friend. It's horrible for me to talk about because I've had therapy for it. But it felt like to me that two people have been murdered, like murdered murdered because when you go through something traumatic you return to your husband or your best friend but it was them two who had betrayed me that like you would not believe how long had it been going on a year and a half really yeah

so until then you hadn't known that he was cheating on you? No, I knew something was going on because my waters broke in France with Jeff and I was in Exxon-Provence in hospital there for six weeks because he came early, it was about 31 weeks, my waters broke so I had to stay in to. And it was weird because she wouldn't visit me, nor him, until the evenings. And she was all done up, it was like she was turning into me, and I just knew it, but he would make me feel like, I'd say, do you fancy?

But I'd be like, fuck off, she's old enough to be my mum, stuff like that. The gas lighting, all of that. Well, did you stay with him after that all came up? Yeah, because funny enough, I was pregnant with him, didn't want my friend to have him, it was just such a fucked up situation. In a weird way maybe that made him give more power in the relationship. No when you forgive, yeah this is what happens when you forgive them they do all the sorries then they do it again. It's still quite emotional for you. It's not a motor I'm over him but he has fucked up so many

families, situations, my kids and like I just didn't know it's my own fault for not knowing him getting married and falling for hell his charm. Like I fell for it and he's good at what he does. MUSIC If we got all your significant exes in for a focus group, right? I'd love to sit with them all. Okay, so JJ, the one you're with now, no he's not an ex, you're with him now. But let's say Peter, Andre, Alex Reed, the cage fighter that you went out with. See, the thing is with Pete. Leandro Pena, an argentinian model

Chris Boyce and personal trainer ice the gladiator Dane Bowers I saw ace ace I haven't really got that many exes considering my age no no but I'd love to get them all in here and we said what was the issue in your relationship with Katie what would they say do you think? I don't know because they were the issues they become the issues. I'm just trying to say about you. I think they would be say they didn't like my work but they liked it when they met me this is the trouble. They didn't like the fact that you did topless modeling? I think in

the initial is they just want to have sex with me. But then they actually fall for me as a person. And then it starts, oh, I don't like you doing that shoot, or why do I have to talk to that person? And that's how it starts with all of them. And then it's always, you can Google me, look at my past, you know what I'm with. And then it's the same exhausting relationship.

What about um... I need a Richard Gere, I've always joked. I said I want to be Julia Roberts and get swept off my feet like I'm pretty woman. Um, do you... I've never had that brother, I've never had a man ever. A real man. A real man that's ever, ever said, do you know what, we're going away for the weekend or I'll pay for your holiday.

Or let me take you out shopping. Who's your ideal man? Like not that you've been out with, but your fantasy figure? Probably a businessman, someone who doesn't want to be the fame, someone who doesn't want to be famous, who's got their own little empire going on. Are there looks of people that you're attracted to? No, personality I think. I've always... But then you saw Gareth Gates, the singer on Pop Idol, and you thought, oh he's really

hot and then you went out of his way to... Yeah, but I was what? 20. Get something going with him. I was young, this is before I knew about boundaries and that when I was young. But saying now, it would have to be someone who's driven. Do you remember what you said about his penis? I can't remember I know I split the bell end bit banjo. What's banjo? You know what the shut up Louis you know what the banjo is. I've never heard that the banjo string. Yeah the bit like you know pull the skin down it's that little that bit. Can you shut up? To be fair To be fair, you've had more face time with

penises than I have. Do you know I don't like doing that either. Mine is always three or four feet away. I've learnt you don't send people pictures and that. Not that much. Mine's a couple of feet down the chest. I don't see it that close. I don't see that side of it either.

No you wouldn't. That's the dark side of the bell end of the helmet. Oh, so you do know. I've never heard that term banjo. Is it banjo or banjo string? I just said banjo. But then as you said, you split his banjo. And he hopped around the room.

And he hopped around the room and then you had to stop and then you reconvened. You postponed it. The next day I think. You took a range check. Yeah. Due to banjo issues. You postponed it. The next day I think. You took a rain check. Yeah. Due to banjo issues. But there's, there are people in the industry who people know who I've done things with.

Go on. And because, no, because they've been alright with me, I don't need to say anything about them. But I think people could lift their eyebrows and be, what? You and that, but how the fuck did you get in there for this and that? Seriously? Yes! Boris Johnson? No, no, you'll never get it out of me, Louis. So don't worry about it. You can keep pressing

and pressing, you'll never guess. Piers Morgan? And my sister would be in the back room watching Sky and Fucks, 8K. Piers Morgan said that you tried it on with him and Simon Cowell. Shut up Piers, you fucking wish I tried it on with you, you egg. Sorry. So just to zoom out for a second, because when I think about, I was most closely kind of engaged in what you were doing when you were at this, I suppose it was, it sort of depends on what was going on in my life a bit. And before I had kids, I was watching more TV and, and then, you know, you were coming up through the Lad mags and that was in the air.

And then when you went on, I'm a celebrity, obviously that was a massive moment. And you'd come out with all the issues that Harvey had and it felt like you were very beloved and that the public viewed you as a national treasure. So... It all went downhill when I split with Pete. And it's taken me all these years to rebuild, go through the breakdown, rebuild myself again. It was tough. Everyone just turned on me. Then it was the team Pete, team Kate. It was awful. Awful. Awful. You split in 2009. Peter hinted at a significant undisclosed

event leading to their separation, while Katie admitted the split was silly and just stupid. It was. And then from... Because you could have, what, you could have figured it out, do you think? Yeah. How's relations with Pete now? Don't speak to him. Why? Just don't, it's all through legals. He was quite jealous of me working. We better get this episode very well legaled. I'm sure it's nothing you can't handle. How are you doing? How's your energy? How are you doing? I'm a bit hungry. Got any biscuits? Bring a bit, bring biscuits. I want to zoom out for a second and just say, look, it's worth mentioning that your first autobiography was the best selling in British history at the time. It outsold David Beckham's, sold over a million copies. That's amazing, isn't

it? You know, I am actually like, all my books have gone to number one, every single one. How do you explain? Because I worked hard to get it there. People who didn't know you might think, well, what's her claim to fame? She's been on some reality shows, she's had some memoirs that were ghosted for her probably, like what is it that she's got? Nevertheless, everything you do, well, I would say most of the things you do, like the books, for example, go to number one, right? They're really well loved and that you've got a huge

following in the TV shows and the documentaries. Keep getting recommissioned because people always want to know they're interested. And what's that all about? Do you think? First of all, the public keep me here because it's down to them who buy stuff or buy into it's the public. And two, I think because I'm not manufactured, a lot of people in this industry are manufactured. I'm not, I am what I am. And I really have had true life. And I, I love doing my reality shows. I just love speaking about stuff. And I think because I started when I was 17, I don't really know any different. This is all I know. And it's like if I have surgery, I'm happy to talk

about it if it's gone wrong or this and that. I'm just, I'm quite an open book, but I think that's just it. I think people have grown up with me. I wonder if as well, it seems like your superpower is also what's got you in trouble over the years. A lot. And that part of you is attracted to chaos or chaos comes to you for whatever reason. It does. It can't be coincidence. And you know, we've talked about a lot of your ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends and there's

this pattern of it not working out and it being complicated. And I think some of that you have to own, right? That's just the nature of reality. Yeah. and it being complicated and I think some of that you have to own right that's just the nature of reality. When I look at all old school reports and that of me or through my career my choices of things I'm like I would say the rocky path person or I would do something and be like ah I've done that ah I'm gonna wait for the chaos. For example if an ex or someone said anything about me, I'd go on Instagram, RAAA, this has happened, it fuelled the fire, then it's in the papers, then it's this, that. Because I didn't know how to control things or no one was there sticking up for me, so I'd try and

stick up for myself and it comes out wrong when really I should have just left things. But I didn't know how to control all that, but now I know how to control that and I don't do it now. And what I'd add to that is that all that chaos, the ex-husbands, the bankruptcies, the substance issues, the drama, it's all, while it must have been painful to live through, extraordinary... I can't blame anyone because I made them choices. And for people on the outside your life unfolds like a human soap opera. It is exactly that. And so, and that's, you know, whether it's been to your benefit in the long run, it's only you can decide, but actually it means that there's this never-ending appetite to follow your life and what's going on with you. And as sad as it is, it is my life. And I'm the person living that.

The hurt, the pain, the good things, the bad things. And I am to blame for a lot of it, through my choices, my reactions, my decisions. But I've never harmed anyone. I'm a good parent. I'm a good person. I'm professional. I turn up for work. Obviously, when I'm coming out of a nightclub when I'm younger, I'm with my mates. You're pissed, the cameras there like, you're like, yeah, and you're in your little outfits. But people have to remember I was young. Like, I've grown up with the media, grown up with people, so they've seen me going

out partying, then having kids, then getting married. Relatable. Do you ever worry that you've been an influence on young girls who might think oh I want to get a boob job like Katie because you know I admire her or you know what I mean? Like in any way do you take responsibility for that? Yeah I've never said to anyone I want to be a role model in the way of, because I'm not perfect, definitely not perfect. And I've made it very clear that I had my boobs done too young. Now I look about 18, because I look at Princess, she's going to be 17 next week. She's like a baby. And then I think, oh my God, I look at Princess and think, God,

I was out in my car with my A to Z at your age, travelling and all of that. But I think I was a little bit more grown up than Princess and then thinking if she was going under the knife to have boobs, like she's young, I think it should be 21 for girls to have boobs and that done. Because it is anaesthetics and and all of that I know I'm not sitting there being a hypocrite because I'm 46 now if I want to start tweaking my face and that I will um I've done my whole modeling career I know I had my boobs done but that was it a couple of times I tried my lips hated it but I think because it's so easy to get now so accessible accessible accessible yeah you can just walk up any street now and there's an because it's so easy to get now, so accessible. Accessible? Accessible, for sure.

You can just walk up any street now and there's an ascetic clinic and you can go and be pumped with stuff. I just think it's sad on young girls. So no, I don't want to be a role model like that. And I don't think girls should get their boobs done for a career. But you are one, whether or not you like it.

In a role model, maybe in the way where I've come through things and that, but not for surgery. I don't want to be a role model for surgery because it's not always what it's made out to be. When you look back, I mean we haven't really talked about it but, I mean you've spoken frequently about issues that you had or things you went through as a much younger person. Yeah. Because when we clearly people who listen will be curious about... I mean when I was raped at seven in a park. Well that's one of them.

So I knew you was coming there. Well there were other things as well. Yeah I've been abused, raped. They never caught the folk who did it, right? No, but the problem when I have therapy is I say things so matter of fact and that's not normal. And that's why I do have the therapy because I'm like, yeah, this has happened, that's happened, that's happened. When really one life of trauma event can affect someone for the rest of their life. Because I've had so many,

I'm like, yeah, that's happened. I was held at gunpoint, raped in front of my kids. I've had three kidnapping threats. Yeah. That was much more recent. That was 2017 or something. Yeah, that more recent. That was 2017 or something. Yeah, that was recent. But also worth saying that your biological dad split from your mum. When I was three. When you were three.

Yeah. Your stepdad Paul entered the picture when you were how old? Three. Because he was my dad's friend. Either way, it must have been weird. It would have had some effect on you or would have thought. Maybe that might be why I needed, not that Paul my stepdad's been fantastic dad, and there's no issues with my biological dad or they all like talk if they'd meet up or whatever and my wedding

I had my biological dad and stepdad take me down the aisle so there's no problems with it there. I had my biological dad and stepdad take me down the aisle. So there's no problems with it there. But I think when I was younger and I used to go around my friend's house is to see the mum, the dad. I think it does probably play something on you because it must do. That might've been where my need is to find them out.

I don't know because I was brought up in a really nice family, working class. There's not one complaint I could have about my childhood, apart from my mum. And dad were quite protective. But I think that's because of what's happened to me as a kid, you know, getting raped at seven and all of this. They were quite protective. But I was just into my horses.

I used to have my bike, type my radio to it, tape it and ride to my horses. Let me jump in, hold on, because we're running out of time. I know I talk a lot, sorry. Your mum said this, okay, because I thought this was quite perceptive and you can react to it. For years we've looked on often powerlessly as Kate's relationships have repeated toxic patterns of coercive control and domestic abuse. We've watched her turn to drugs and even more drastic measures to

protect herself against the pain of childhood traumas and a longing to reconger the lost relationship with her dad. How did she say that? She's defended her vulnerability with alter egos like Jordan but it can still be seen in her needy men, treacherous friendships and even an obsession with caring for animals. She's right, my relationships are like that. And I used to say that when I was the Jordan, I am the same person, whether it was Kate, when I used to do men's magazines, it's like, they can look at me but they can't touch me. Does that make sense? I used to say, is that why I love it? Like I can get my kill for like, yeah, you can

look at me guys, but you can't touch me. I don't know. I just think it was a more... It gives you a power? More probably a power thing, yeah. That's the control I had because I was, I don't know, because I was never in control of relationships. But the bigger point I think was that... I've just had so many traumatic things, and the men thing, like, maybe it has had an effect, because there was a lot of incidents when I was younger, but it still hasn't... well, I've had shit relationships, but I'm still here sitting sitting to tell the town still got a big grin on my face

Ready to bring Empire back and I will good for you. We haven't really talked about me very much You yeah. Oh shut up Lou. What do we need to talk about you? Have you seen any of my programs? Oh fuck if you know I have have you love your stuff. There we always love it There's just so many that I just like the way you're so dry. Yes, there we go. Because I've got to dry him. You don't have to go on about it. Oh, shut up. You just asked me.

I feel like I could just carry on talking for hours. There's so much, isn't there? Let's do a marathon for charity. 24-hour... You probably could as well, wouldn't you? And you keep going and then we could do it in shifts. Like, you have a quick sleep and I'll talk for an hour. Hiya. It's me, I'm back. I hope you enjoyed that. I did. It was an extraordinary conversation and an insight into a unique individual, someone who's been through a lot of chaos and heartbreak.

There's clearly trauma there and Katie speaks about it so lightly that I think it can be disarming. You can almost assume that there's less trauma there than there actually is because of a kind of levity with which Katie speaks about it. I also enjoyed, I mean, look, there's a lot of highlights. I don't want to spend ages post-morteming a conversation that sort of speaks for itself. But the Lebedev chat, the quip that I wished I'd made was the fact that it sounded like the ultimate murder mystery weekend. You know, like an Agatha Christie novel, Murder at the Villa, Murder in Tuscany, with the mercurial Russian oligarch, the unpredictable political figure, the foreign minister, the pop star, Pixie Lott, the glamour model, the film legend Joan Collins, or maybe it could be a reboot of Cluedo.

No one died though, as far as we know. Or did they? The other thing I forgot I didn't pick up on was the fact that everyone was on the private jet, except Boris, who flew EasyJet. It's kind of hard to imagine Boris Johnson on an easy jet, but there you have it. I guess it was to do with some kind of declaration of financial interest or the perception that he'd be receiving gifts,

but then he was a guest at the Tuscan Villa. So I'm not sure how all of that works. What else? Well, it's clear that she's still dealing with the fallout from the breakup with Kieran and specifically the betrayal, which sounded awful. The betrayal by Kieran and also her best friend and the fact that they were on holiday together.

I mean, all the details are hideous. And catching them in the act. I mean, if you watched it on a soap, you'd think it was overblown. In flagrante delicto, in the heat of the crime. That's Latin. I am educated is the point. Oh, did I say that?

You can cut that out. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com forward slash resources. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. I did some research. can I have a researcher credit? The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira, special thanks to our long-suffering legal counsel at Abbas Law, they had a lot to do on this one. This is a MINDHOUSE production

for Spotify.