The Louis Theroux Podcast - S3 EP6: Nick Kyrgios discusses his love/hate relationship with tennis, mental health battles and conspiracy theories

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

In this episode, Louis is joined by tennis ‘bad boy’ Nick Kyrgios. Beaming in from his home in Canberra, Australia, the pair discuss his love/hate relationship with the sport that made him famous, his well-publicised mental health battles and internet conspiracy theories.     Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.      Links/Attachments:  Good Trouble with Nick Kyrgios (Podcast)  https://open.spotify.com/show/7iswYJAWYkeXLOmgSvlNlh?si=564f42f9346e4407     Break Point (Netflix)   https://www.netflix.com/title/81569920    Open: An Autobiography, Andre Agassi (2010)  https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/open-an-autobiography-andre-agassi?variant=32545747468366     Gods of Tennis (iPlayer, UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0fd5qk1     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello? Are there any listeners there? Not funny. Hello! Louis Theroux here. Welcome to my podcast called... What is it again? Oh yes, the Louis Theroux Podcast. In this episode my guest is Australian tennis player Nick Kirios. Born to a Greek father and a Malaysian mother, Nick's skills with the racket were noticed early and he made his grand slam debut at 18 years old. Nick has won seven ATP Tour singles titles including the 2019 and 2022 Washington Open and reached 11 finals, most notably at Wimbledon in 2022. However, his professional

achievements have often been overshadowed by controversy and a mercurial personality both on and off the court, which we talk about during the chat. His professional tennis career has been further complicated by repeat knee and wrist injuries. But he's put his time off the court to productive use. He fronts his own celebrity interview podcast called Good Trouble with Nick Kirios, and he was chosen to commentate at this year's Wimbledon's men's final. I am a tennis fan, not of an obsessive sort, but I like it when it's on, and I play… very little, if I'm honest. I had a few lessons once, and the instructor said, you have the

potential to have a very good serve. The potential is as yet unrealised. We recorded this interview remotely in July 2024 with Nick joining from his home in Canberra. I caught Nick midway through the Olympics in Paris, remember that. He wasn't taking part due to a long standing dispute that he has with the Australian Olympic organisers. dispute that he has with the Australian Olympic organizers. Warnings, adult content a bit of bad language and what I thought was a pretty good Australian accent but my production team seems to think otherwise mate. All of that and much much more after this. Thanks for doing this, man. I'm a tennis fan, but I'm not a tennis expert. And I'm kind

of, I follow tennis like obviously, like a lot of people in the UK, like Wimbledon is obviously huge. And then because of BBC having Wimbledon TV rights, every year you're immersed in two weeks of Wimbledon. I know Wimbledon means a lot to you. But actually, what I was going to start by saying, as we speak, we can't ignore the fact the Olympics are going on, right? Yep. But you're not there.

Yeah, unfortunately not. But I would like to hope maybe in four years, the next four years, if everything goes well and I'm healthy, I would love to be there. It hasn't been something that I've always wanted to do. I mean, wanted to do yes, but not always allowed. I was on the naughty list for a couple years earlier in my career and I wasn't able to participate. But now if I was healthy, I don't see why I wouldn't be there and playing alongside all the amazing athletes. It would be a dream for me to be there to see the NBA players of course that represent

United States. So you referred to naughty behaviour. The elephant in the room obviously is that along with your incredible gift for tennis came a reputation, deserved or undeserved, for being feisty on the court and argument prone, maybe tantrum prone, which is not like unusual in tennis, but you took it maybe, well,

did you take it to the next level? You certainly were the avatar for that kind of thing for a while. That's been the story of my life, really. I mean, I guess coming into tennis, I mean, just to answer a couple of questions that you gave me, you know, with the reputation, I guess, like John McEnroe coming up and then obviously, Kirios and I guess we're a bit hot headed in a way, but I don't think we are really because, you know, tennis is such an old, you know tennis is such an old you know gentleman sport I think anyone that kind of shows any sort of personality is kind of outside

the box and outside the cookie cutter of the normal tennis player so I feel like behavior that you see from us would be completely normal in say rugby or soccer or you know you can kind of get away with those things in my opinion opinion. But yeah, I mean, look, you can't judge an athlete for what they do on the court because you have to be two different people, in my opinion. Yeah, or not purely that, right? And I think there was something similar with John McEnroe where he was a flamboyant, larger than life personality who would, you know, famously, you cannot be serious, which was, apparently he only ever said that once. I learned that when he told, he said that to you maybe. And his other one, you guys are the pits of the world.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I was struck by when he was talking to you, by the way, because I'm plugging your podcast, but there we go. You're sort of on hiatus from tennis somewhat and among the things that you're turning your hand to is having your own podcast. But he found forms of argument that did not involve swearing because that meant he didn't get fined. Yeah. I think he definitely saved a lot of money not swearing, that's for sure. But I just think the way that we kind of went about our tennis and the way we kind of walked and the way we, you know, he was very different. The way he dressed on the court, the way I kind of go out in Jordans and the way we do things, it automatically pulls a lot of eyes and a lot of like, oh, red flag. You can't do that.

That's not in the rules of tennis. You go out wearing Jordans, i.e. like basketball shoes basically, but you don't play in them. Yeah, just Jordans ones. Just runners. Why? Just a routine I had since I was a little kid. That was just the thing I did. I got fined for it, but I'm not going to change. You've racked up the most fines of any player in history according to my notes. Do you think that's true? I think that's true. I was going to say, you mentioned McEnroe and the other person who comes up in this context is Ilya Nastazii, who was a Romanian player. I'm 54, right? So I was born in 1970 and that golden era of tennis in the 70s and 80s, where you had Borg, well, the male players

anyway. Borg Connors. Borg Connors, McEnroe, and then Nastostazzi was another who, he was known both for being argumentative and throwing tantrums, but also being a showboat, but you know, a performer, like he actually would be funny and clown around. And as a kid, like, that was the best thing about tennis was that you had these big personalities, right? You didn't want to see robot-like players. You wanted to see a little bit of a sense of, and even if they lost their shit, if I can put it that way, that was even better, right?

Well, of course, that's what sport is. You know, I feel like you hit the nail on the head, you know, when people come to watch me, it's not so just to see some aggressive and pure tennis, it's also to see the unknown of what could happen, what could I go back home with and talk about my family, that's something that I've never seen before, whether it was good or bad. That, I guess, that unknown or that question mark is what sells tickets and why people come to my matches

because they know that there's something that they might see there that they won't see on 99% of the tour. And I think you can't lose that. That's why we love sport. That's why I love watching sport because there's different personalities. Everyone is the same. No one would tune in. And I think it's important that we don't kind of bash or criticise these new personalities or different personalities. We kind of got to

embrace them and kind of nurture them so they find their way. Because everyone can be successful. I don't think there has to be like a certain type of personality to be successful in tennis or anything to be honest. You were talking about earlier about how in other sports that behaviour would be unremarkable. I think that's true. Like you think about a football match, player shouting at the ref, getting a yellow, then getting a red maybe, it's quite normal, right? And certainly abusing each other. Again, it's not encouraged, but you accept that that's how, you know, under pressure,

you know, what they regard as a dodgy decision, that tempers flare up and they'll sometimes fight. In fact, by that metric, tennis is unusually civilized. Like, you don't often see, you see players fight and being pulled back. I don't think there's been many times, you've never had a physical altercation with a player, have you? No, not at all. And to be honest, whether we might swear or just because there's microphones around the court. So if you swear, obviously on TV and there might be kids watching, which

I understand like to get fined for, but almost just breaking a racket, like breaking a racket has almost been branded as something that I would do, McEnroe, like a couple other players, but everyone's broken a racket before. You know, all the top players have broken a racket. But yeah, as you said, some of the behavior you see that I've done or McEnroe or all these guys, like it's very common in other sports where we're kind of just, oh no, that's just part of it, you know. Right, interesting. So among other things, among your many accomplishments, you were the star or one of the

stars of a Netflix series basically following tennis, sort of in that drive to survive format. And I think it's not been renewed, but they were around for a few seasons, couple of seasons. Anyway, and that you gave them a lot of access, you kind of let them into your life. What was behind that decision? Yeah, it was for me, it's very important. You know, I thought what they did with the drive to survive and how much it helped their sport grow and I felt like, you know, even someone like my partner who's not into F1 at all, you know, watched a couple episodes just about growing the sport. I think tennis, it needed something to show the world, you know, what we do, how our lives are, how much travel we do. I think tennis, it needed something to show the world, you know, what we do, how our lives

are, how much travel we do. I think it worked for a bit, but for me, I was like, that's one of my goals. One of my goals is to grow the sport as much as possible and get fans from that don't like tennis or don't know much about tennis into our sport. And I think that's crucial because if you look about other sports and how they're growing, tennis going to get left behind once you know you obviously we've lost Federer already on the brink of losing the doll Djokovic is on his way out so you know we're in dying need of to grow the sport and that's what I said to them I was like look I'm going to give you more access than pretty much any other athlete on the tennis tour so just like make sure when you when you're in, you get what you need. Because

it was it was odd sometimes letting them into my house, letting them into my my hotel room, like my locker room, like it's a bit, you know, invasion of privacy at times, but I knew it was for the greater good because the amount of eyes on the sport after that was was improved for sure. Do you think that tennis is endangered for real? Like when you look at it, like whether it's attendance or viewers or whatnot, I have no real sense of, it always feels like tennis is just there being tennis.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like I have a sense that it's sort of like gone into the background at all. No, not background, but like, let me ask you this. Like, can you name five other tournaments outside the Grand Slams? Probably, no, probably not. But that's my point.

Tennis is played all year round and there's tennis events every week. So the fact that you call yourself a tennis fan, so you know, Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon US Open, tennis needs to do such a better job of marketing our sport and making sure, like, there are tournaments every single week of the year. And if you look at, you know, APL or the NBA, like, the crowds are always packed.

There's not a seat, like, left where tennis, you can watch an event that's on this week, then you could tune into the stadium and it'd be half full. So it's like, I think obviously with the Grand Slams will always be relevant. Wimbledon for me is the Holy Grail of sport in my eyes as well. So with those four Grand Slams would be incredibly hard

for tennis to die off, but the marketing and the players that we've had, I mean, someone as yourself, you would have seen Federer Nadal Djokovic, Andy Murray. Like these guys were legends of our sport that have carried our sport for 30 years. And once they go, it's going to take a big hit, I think. Interesting. Okay. Now listen, you said we could talk about anything. And we were talking

a little bit about controversies and okay, I'm going to zoom out for a second. I know I'm babbling. So the narrative around you is that you're one of the most gifted, naturally gifted tennis players of all time, but notwithstanding that, or maybe because of that, you've underachieved, right? That you haven't won a Grand Slam, except, well, as a doubles, but not as a singles player. And that given your incredible gift, like there's also sorts of quotes people saying in tennis, saying like, he's the most naturally gifted player we've seen in 20, 30, 40 years. And yet, whether to do with injuries or temperament, or just a dislike for tennis that you've talked

about, you haven't performed to the level that you are capable of. Is that a fair, do you know it's a fair summary of what the narrative is? Yeah, that's definitely something I've heard my entire career, yeah. Do you have anything to say to that? Um, of course. I mean, to say that I've underachieved is insanity because I know that what I've gone through in my life and where I've come from and just sitting in this room in from Canberra, Australia, the fact that someone sat here and played in front of the Royal Family is like, for me, that's not an underachievement at all.

I think it's, you know, what I've done in my career and what I've achieved as a person and how I've bounced back from all the negative that I've dealt with and gone through and turned it into a positive and able to help people now and I can give advice to young kids that come up, young fans. I look at that as the biggest overachievement in that any athlete can kind of give back. As for a temperament thing, like I think any 19 year old that got thrown into the deep end at my age with the amount of negativity and social media

would have probably dealt with it in a similar way. Definitely could have gone through it a little smoother. I was very reluctant to get help and to learn about it. So I kind of like prolonged the process of maturing, I guess, because I was just so under the spotlight so much. But look, there's no shame in at the end of the day, not winning a Grand Slam because 99% of tennis players don't win a singles Grand Slam. Andy Murray, Federer, Novak Djokovic, Rafa Nadal playing

in their prime, they occupied a lot of the Grand Slams. They won 95% of Grand Slams. So there's an enough and I've beaten them all as well. So yeah, that what you what you said to me before, that was definitely an opinion, I think that's easily debunked. Yeah, that I appreciate that. And in answering that, I feel like that's easily debunked. Yeah, I appreciate that. In answering that, I feel like I got an insight into something which is that there's this sort of narrative that's been imposed on you, but that from your lived experience, obviously, you don't just see it differently. It just doesn't measure up to kind of what you feel that you've been up against. I think it kind of maybe

it dovetails a little bit with some of the mental health issues that you've dealt with over the years as well. I mean, that's also what my mind was going to when you were speaking, is that fair? Yeah, definitely. And it's just all like the whole experience coming back from all of that kind of stuff that I've opened up from before and still able to play and do all these amazing things, talk to you on this platform and have my own talk show and just do all the things is for me a massive success in my eyes. So yeah, it's just one way of my communication is tennis in my opinion.

Thank you for that. And I hope I didn't annoy you by saying that. Kuhn- No, not at all. Trust me. Mason- Okay, good. I'm just checking in. I'm just checking in. Kuhn- Of course.

Mason- So we were going to talk about some of the controversies. So 2015. Kuhn- Yes. Mason- Do you know which one I'm going to do? Kuhn- Probably. Mason- 2015 at the Rogers Cup in Montreal, during one of the changeovers. Yes. I think you said to Stan Waringka.

Yes. Can I say it? Of course. Why not? I don't know why I'm being so tentative. Why are you being so tentative for? I don't know. You said, Kokanakis banged your girlfriend.

Sorry to tell you that, mate. Yes. Just good old fashioned trash talk that's very good and very necessary in sport. The microphone picked up your comments because of it you were fined $10,000. But won the match. But you won the match. Yes. So was that just that was good sledging like they do that in cricket too right? Yeah exactly. Well it wasn't really there's a whole story as to why it came out, but I'm

not going to blabber on about it, but like... Go on, say it, we got some. No, no, no. Come on. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just like, we were just going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And you know, it's just... Was he talking shit to you as well? No, he wasn't really talking shit, but he was trying to hit me in the head with a tennis

ball and I was like, what's this guy's problem? He was trying to hit the ball at you to intimidate you. Yeah, which is, which is complete, which I love by the way. I love playing when, when someone's thinking about doing that to me, it's like, okay, I'm inside there. I'm right where I want to be. Like I know they're not focusing on their game. And then it just kept boiling over, boiling over.

And I was 19 and I said it. And then that's it. Like big deal. We move forward. You lost the match. I'll see you next week. Like, whatever. And yeah, we've seen each other since. We've played each other since.

I've got huge respect for him. Hopefully I would say to him, to his face, like, yeah, I've grown up since I was 19 years old. But yeah, like, I mean, we're all not perfect, so. Of course. Can we do one more? Sure. All right, thank perfect, so. Of course. Can we do one more? Sure. All right, thank you, man.

You're being very tolerant. No worries. Because this was one, because the one I like is that when you get into an argument, the ones I enjoy most of when you get into an argument with someone in the crowd. Oh yeah, that one's good. They're always good.

Because that's next level. It's like, you can beef with your opponent, or indeed beef with the umpire, but some random in the crowd, it feels sort of so beneath you in a way, but actually that makes it even funnier. But I guess it's happened a couple of times. The most famous one was when,

and a lot of people thought you were picking a fight with Ben Stiller. He was just collateral damage. Yes, he was collateral damage. Well, not damage, it was actually, it was a compliment in a way, because Ben Stiller's He was just collateral damage. Yes, he was collateral damage. Well, not damage, it was actually a compliment in a way, because Ben Stiller is such a good actor and I love him in every single movie he does and I love comedy. So it's like, would I tell Ben Stiller how to act? No, I wouldn't. Like, I'd leave him alone, so why are you telling me how to play? It was a compliment. And everyone was,

you know, it was a compliment. So it wasn't even someone in his party, right? They just happened to be sitting near him. And you were saying like, look, you can't advise me on how to play tennis. That's like me advising Ben Stiller over here on how to act. It's not my place. Correct. But then one woman actually gave, took you to court because this was at the Grands, which was this at Wimbledon?

Yeah, this was at Wimbledon. Yeah. Wimbledon. Just to let you know, I don't think I'm allowed to talk too much about this topic. Because it resulted in a legal case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'll say, you don't have to say anything. I'll just say a spectator who happened to be a lawyer called for defamation proceedings after you allegedly said, the one in the dress, he looks like she's had about 700 drinks, bro.

Yeah. And she took she took that a miss. Look, I'm not going to condone the behavior like, you know, the future generation and the millions of fans that look up to me and love my game style. Like I want them to remember me as someone that was OK with not being perfect and had a bad day once in a while, but not doing things that leave a bad taste in your mouth. And those specific incidences, like yeah, you know, they were, I guess I was young and I was, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I wouldn't say I was proud of those moments. I wouldn't take them back because I've learned from them. But at the same time, I don't want to like talk about it as if this every time you go on the court, do something like that. Definitely not. No, no, no, no, of course. Of course. So, you call tennis one of the loneliest, or like a very lonely sport.

Is that right? Very lonely. Do you mean the sport or the lifestyle of the tours and what not, or both? Both. I mean, there's so many outlying things in tennis that are so, like, alien. If you told another athlete, like, they wouldn't understand it. Like, we're on the road for, if you play a full schedule, someone from Australia,

I'm on the road for eight to nine months a year. Every week, different hotel. And you don't know what time you're gonna play indefinitely. You are adapting to different time zones, different diet. You can either play for an hour and a half at a Grand Slam, you can play for five and a half hours. What other sport doesn't know how long they're going to play for? It's insanity. Even boxing, you have rounds, you know exactly how long you could go for where tennis, it's so many variables.

Mason- Because I've often wondered about this, is it theoretically possible, I know this is ridiculous, but for a tennis match to go on forever? Well, technically, I mean, one went over for three days. Really? Yeah, one went for three days. Wim Wooden, John Isner and Nicholas Mahoot, they went for three days because the match went for so long. No other sport would ever know what that feels like apart from test cricket I guess. And for me from Australia, like you're just away from your family and friends and from a comfortable environment for pretty much

like more than seven months. It's like you know if you're European or you're American you kind of lose it in a tournament early you can kind of get it one flight home but Australia it's just impossible to do that. It's very lonely. Do a lot of players travel with their, especially if they're younger I guess, would they travel with their families, with their parents? Yeah sometimes, yeah sometimes but also tennis is a sport where you pay for everything. You subsidise for your coaches, your travel, your parents, your physios, everything where most sports are, it's all subsidised by the governing bodies so tennis is a tough one. It's, it's probably the hardest

sport in the world, in my opinion, like mentally you have to be unbelievably tough because you're always traveling, you never settled, you never have any routine. Physically, you have to be an animal. Because someone like Novak Djokovic, these guys are some of the most skillful athletes in the world. So it's, it's a brutal sport. It really is. Is it also the fact that you're out there, I mean we referred to this a little bit at the beginning, but it's two people without anyone else really out there to speak to, sort of exposed on the court for hours at a time, just going back and forth and the strangeness of that, right?

Definitely, definitely. I mean you look at like boxing for instance is obviously they have the sort of the strangeness of that, right? Definitely, definitely. I mean, you look at like boxing, for instance, is obviously they have the risk of getting killed. So it's like, it's not really comparable, but every, at the end of a round, they go back to their corner and they kind of, you know, then I don't know what they're hearing. I've never been in that position,

but I guess they have their team in their ear where tennis is like, could be out there for five hours. And it's just like you and your lonely thoughts. It's a bit, gets a bit hectic inside my head. You know, and again, we refer to this, but Andre Agassi, a legend of the game, I've been reading his autobiography, Open, which is well known as a kind of particularly powerful

and intimate sports autobiography. Have you looked at that? Yep, yep. He says, like, it's one of the opening lines of it, like how much he hates tennis. And it's really shocking in a way to pick it up and think, wow, you dedicated your life, years of dedication and discipline to something that you hate. But you've said that you don't really like tennis as well. When you say you dislike it, what are you thinking about?

I've said that I dislike tennis. I have a love-hate relationship with tennis. I love competing and there are days where I absolutely love the sport and sometimes I dislike it. I feel like my actions have kind of proven that I don't have the passion for the sport as some other players do. Like it's interesting that I hear someone like Agassi kind of say he doesn't love it because his entire life he played a heavy schedule. He played all the time. I think his partner was a professional tennis player. So he's like...

His wife, Stephie Graff, right? I think he's still with Stephie Graff. She's the mother of his children. So like you've kind of moulded your whole life with tennis where with mine, you can't say that. Like I've barely played a full schedule for the last eight years of my life. I miss tournaments whenever I want to. I'm playing basketball.

I'd rather play basketball when I'm playing tennis. My fashion's completely different. I have a life completely outside of tennis. So I guess I've kind of like, there have been players that have kind of in my eyes gone and said, oh, I don't like tennis, like whatever. But then like they're playing every single week. Like no one's forcing them to play.

So like, it's hard for me to believe it because I genuinely have like sacrificed my ranking or sacrificed money to just not play because I don't like the sport where these guys, they wouldn't miss out for the world. So it's interesting, like I was reading about it and the things that he was battling, incredible respect for him opening up about it

because there are plenty of players and athletes that worldwide that go through those things for sure. And in fact, he's come to your defense at least once, I think at times when you've come into criticism for behavior. He said something along the lines of having struggled with things over the years that he could relate to the idea that, well, his analysis was I think that the appearance of not caring was sometimes a performance or a projection a way of protecting yourself because you cared a lot. But I don't even know if that applied in your case, because you've also said that it wasn't that you cared a lot, right? Or was it both?

Well, yeah, like, sometimes, like I care, but at the same time, like, I feel like when people just get to know me, they kind of understand where I'm coming from. Like it's hard, like a player from Australia, like that has to stay on the road for six and a half months and hasn't seen his family or friends. Like if I'm not putting my best effort in for one, one match and then everyone's criticizing, I'm like, how can you guys for one match, and then everyone's criticizing, I'm like, how can you guys criticize when all the other players, they go home every couple of weeks and see their family,

they have home cooked food, they see their mom and dad, they see their family, and then you have the outside world that couldn't hit three balls over the net saying their piece. It's just like, it's hard because there's only, there's a few people in my position that are professionally from Australia

that have achieved what I've done. It's not about me caring or me not caring. Sometimes you're just tired. Sometimes I'm just tired of being Nick Kirios and playing tennis professionally at the highest level and traveling for seven months or doing this and this. Sometimes I just want to have a little downtime. I think everyone at some stage deserves that. When you're out doing the different tournaments and you're on the road and presumably you're

bumping into the same characters, right, the other players and their entourages, who's in your entourage? Like how many people is it? Is it family, friends? And then also how much do you socialize and how much of a scene is there? Like are you all kind of hanging together and stuff? How does it all work? Well, my entourage is extremely small.

I travel with my, like, one of my best friends and he's my agent. I travel with my partner and my physio. So yeah, horse, yep, exactly. And your partner's name is? My partner, Costine. Costine. Yeah, Costine.

And my physio, Will. And my physio will come only every so often. So my team is really like two to three people max. So like I was you know nearly one Wimbledon with three people and I just love having a small team and doing you know things intimately. But tennis is a crazy sport like that. Like we're all in the same locker room so we see each other, we eat together, we're all in the same cafe. So we eat together, we shower, like everything you're just doing next to the person

that you're about to go out in the gladiator type stadium with millions of people watching worldwide and the stadium's full and then you shake hands, you compete for four hours and you just see him right away in the locker room. Such a strange sport like that. Where like, for instance, if you watch rugby or anything, like someone would probably die if they went into the same locker room straight after they're played.

Interesting. Yeah, it's wild. Can we talk a little bit about you kind of growing up? I know that part of your story is that maybe you weren't groomed for success in the way that some tennis prodigies have been. You know, there's a certain, again, cliche of the tennis world, which is that, you know, someone usually from a fairly privileged or at least middle-class upbringing is identified as having some talent and then they have kind of tennis parents, right, who invest a lot in making it happen for them

and the way is kind of the path is kind of grooved for them to achieve success. It wasn't quite like that for you right? No. Can you talk a bit about that? Yeah it was just you know I had two older siblings who played tennis growing up. Well they were trying to play tennis. We had a local tennis center around the corner and obviously my first passion was basketball. I had like a basketball hoop outside my house that was wobbly, but I loved playing on it. And then my dad would just take us down to the local center and play together. And I guess I had like a local coach that kind of came to my parents and said, look, he's got like a bit of a different eye for things. Like he's picking up

things a little faster than the usual kid at his age and how old would you have been maybe like nine nine or ten um that's when i really i guess i was the top of my age in in in cambera or australia i was i was definitely you know competing and then yeah i mean my we me my mom and my dad whoever was taking me to tournaments, we were driving six to eight hours across the country, staying in backpackers. My mum would warm me up mac and cheese macaroni from Woolworths. And then when I was traveling with my older siblings, we had like a $20 budget for dinner. So we were staying in caravan parks. But at the same time, I thought it was the best fun ever, by the way. Like I loved it. And we were staying in caravan parks. But at the same time, I thought it was the best fun ever, by the way. Like I loved it. And we were just playing local tournaments

around the country, and I was doing relatively well. My siblings started to drop off a little bit, so they kind of just said, look, like this kid's beating us at like 11 or 12, so maybe we should just- Where did you come in the birth order? I was the youngest, so- You're the youngest, and I should reflect the fact that

your dad has Greek heritage. Yeah, he was a house painter. Where was he from? Did he come over from Greece? Yeah, Greece. He came by boat in 1965. From whereabouts? Yonina, like a little island in Greece. He came by boat with his mum and his younger brother.

And he speaks Greek, of course? Do you speak Greek? No, I don't speak Greek. My partner speaks fluent Greek and can understand it, but I can't. I can't speak it. My two siblings can. They went to Greek school. I went to Greek school. Do you feel connected to your Greek heritage? Yeah, yeah. Big time. Big time. Big time. I feel connected to my Greek heritage.

I lived in Melbourne for two years and that's the second largest Greek city outside of Athens. So every time I played in Australian Open down there, it was like, it was incredible. years and that's got that's the second largest Greek city outside of Athens so every time I played the Australian Open down there it was like it was incredible like I feel enormous amounts of support from the great community wherever I go and your mum is of Malaysian heritage yep whereabouts in Malaysia well her family is mainly from KL but then then there's like a bunch of them from Penang as well. And we actually went to... Kuala Lumpur.

Yeah, KL was the... that's where most of her family is from, but she came... she was about an hour and a half in a village that we actually went to go village and I'm talking like pure slum city. Like my mum was from... like she probably grew up in like a wooden shack and she probably thought that was the best thing ever. So that was like seeing where she grew up. Me and my sister actually went there with her and then we just stood around and that's what I'm saying when people say like that I've underachieved in my career. I'm like my mum grew up in like a wooden shack and my dad came by boat. Like is it really

underachieving or is it just like finding a way through all this mess and then making it work? Yeah I mean and I think that underachieving thing is intended as a, maybe it feels like a backhanded compliment. There's a tennis metaphor, but it's both, I think it's supposed to be saying like, oh my God, this guy is fun. He doesn't seem to even try that hard, which may or may not be the case. And he's doing these incredible shots, right? Well, I guess that's the, that's the case though, because it's not easy.

Like, it's not like I just picked out a like professional tennis player from Manhattan and that was my life. It was like I've worked 10 times harder than majority of people. People in tennis do you think or majority? Anywhere. Majority of people anywhere. Like I mean if someone did my day of training they would be in hospital for sure. You know what I mean? Like if they don't see what I do every day. And maybe it speaks to your style of play right? Because some of the things that you're known for, like I learned this word yesterday, the tweeny. The tweeny, tweener. Tweener, I can't even get it right. That's hilarious. Tweeny. Yeah I mean yeah just a little

shot that I play from time to time like it's not not, you know, it's not that, it's not that special. It's between the legs. It looks magical. I'd never seen one. I don't think, or at least maybe had, but I'd forgotten until I Federer, Federer played a fair bit. Did he? He's the, he's the original genius for the listeners.

Explain what I call it a tweeny. Tweeny's good, I actually like that. Calling it tweeny is better. It's so embarrassing. Explain for the listeners what the tweener is. Just when you let the ball drop between your legs and you just put the racket between your legs and hit it and it looks crazy. It gets the crowd, you know, they think it's the most amazing thing ever. It's very easy. I could teach you 100%. Really?

And also an underarm serve. Yeah. Again, I didn't know that was a real thing. Yeah, it's not a real thing. I made it a real thing and then a lot of players play it now when they want to play it. And it's good. It's a good mix up. It keeps the other person guessing and it's like,

well, what the hell is he doing? This is a professional tennis match. It's completely legal though. When did you first do it? I did it against Nadal. I get it against Nadal. Really? Well, because he was so far, he's known for returning

the ball like really far back in the court. So it's hard to like get a free point. So I was just like, I need to do something to get this guy out of this rhythm. And I did it. And the whole tennis world called me really disrespectful. But I won the match. So I found a way. Had you done one before you did it against Nadal?

I'd done one before, but probably not on that big stage and not with that many eyes on me. And people thought it was disrespectful. Yeah. They were like, how could he do that? To the tennis gods are shaking in their boots. Right. Your announcement on, when you were kind of announced like to the world as an incredible talent, it was 2014, right?

Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, I was, I was about, I was a teenager. Yeah, I was a teenager. 19 years old. Yeah. Yeah. And then I just I was playing in the fourth round of Wimbledon and he was world number one at the time. And yeah, I beat him and everything kind of just went crazy after that. You've talked about that quite a bit. And in your story, it feels like just one of the real

milestones but you've also talked about the way in which that was destabilising, that had an impact on you, your family. Yeah, it was crazy. Can you explain that a bit? Because obviously from the outside there's a glib interpretation, which is, well, this was your arrival, how amazing. You could surf that and suddenly all these doors are open to you. I'm sure sponsorship deals were coming your way and whatnot.

But explain how you experienced it from the inside. Well, I was still, I was just a kid. I got back home and there were people piling up at the airport, the cameras in my face and there were people camping outside my house for like 14 days. Reporters or fans? Just everything, everyone. It was just a lot, like I don't think my, I wasn't ready for it but my family most definitely wasn't ready for it, especially when they came from and their background. It was hard for all of us to kind of understand what was going on. And yeah, I guess I wasn't ready

for the mass and the sea of opinions, because I'm quite sensory. I take everything quite personally and I absorb everything. So it was hard. Mason- When you say opinions, what do you mean? Was there criticism at that time? Oh, just whether it was negative and negative or, you know, negative comments, positive comments. There were a lot of ayes. Just being in the spotlight wasn't easy. Yeah, it wasn't easy. Especially being from Australia, like it wasn't easy because, you know, tennis is such a, it's always such a rich culture here. So there's a lot of expectations and they want, they just, tennis, Australia just wants a new tennis champion. That's all they want.

Right. Australians, Australians love sports. Okay, I'm going to go on a limb and say, make a wild generalisation, but we know Australia is well known for its sporting culture, right? right? You just need to look at the Olympics in Australia, a nation of what is it, 25 million? Something like that. There they are, like top of the medal rankings or top three, four. So it's got an incredible sporting culture, which must be, I think this is what you're saying, mixed blessing if you are the recipient of all that attention and all those hopes are invested in you. Like that's a lot to think about, a lot of pressure. What's your, I think this is a really big question, but what's your relationship with Australia?

I think you're very loved over there. Now, I mean, the start of my career, it was mixed, very mixed. And in the middle stages of my career, it was probably more so negative. But I think the last two, three years of my career, it's definitely changed. I feel like the nation is definitely on my side. And I feel like they've gotten to know me more and just realise that I'm authentic and

genuine and yes, I'm rough around the edges sometimes. But I feel like, yeah, my relationship with Australia now is much better than what it used to be, that's for sure. And like, yeah, I think people tend to forget like I've grown up here my entire life. So I'm very Aussie. You've said in the past, maybe this was 2024, I wanted to play for my country. I can't say that I still have that desire. And let's be honest, I haven't exactly felt like Australia has wanted me to represent

it either. I've said before, I often't exactly felt like Australia has wanted me to represent it either. I've said before, I often feel more at home away from home. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I play in London or when I play in the States, that's where my home is. You know, when I'm playing in front of thousands in Wimbledon and when I'm in Arthur Ashe Stadium in New York, the fans go absolutely berserk. And I feel like the love there is honestly greater.

And that's not a shot on Australia or anything, but I feel way more loved in the States and way more loved in Wimbledon when I made that run to the final. And yeah, that was just a weird time in my career because I had arguably one of the best seasons in the world. I went 61 and 10. What does that mean? 61 wins and 10 losses in a season. I had the third best season in the world behind Alcaraz and Novak Djokovic. What year was this? 2022 when I made the final and we gave out an award in Australia to the best Australian tennis

player and it didn't go to me that year and I was just like, it's a bit odd, but at the same time, like, whatever, like it didn't make or break me. I'm just saying like the relationship is like, who did it go to? It went to Ash Barty and she played one tournament that year. Yeah. What do you make of that? Oh, well, I'm just saying like, I'm just saying like my relationship with Australia hasn't always been like amazing. So it's like... What do you make of it in the sense of like, how do you make sense of that? What's going on there, do you think?

I don't know. You tell me. I can't say things that I want to say all the time. But at the same time... Go on. Why can't you? Because you know she's bad PR. No, but what she's achieved is amazing.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sit here and say I've had a better career. No, of course not. She's won multiple Grand Slams. She's arguably one of the greatest Australian tennis players to ever live. Like she's achieved tenfold what I've achieved. But that particular year, the third best season walking on the planet behind Alcaraz and Djokovic, it's a bit odd. But I also feel that in Australia they also love someone who's a little bit got rough edges, you know, like that culture of Ned Kelly, you know, I'm going back into history

now, the larrikin, you know, the guy who's not going to take any shit, mate, there's my Australian accent for you, you know, like who's not stuck up, he's a man of the people. I feel like that conforms to a certain Australian archetype as well. Yeah, I mean, it does for sure. As I said, I think Aussies, they love a competitor, they love watching sport. And trust me, some parts of my career I've felt extremely loved here, when I've put on some amazing performances at the Australian Open, and I've won tournaments in Australia. So I definitely have felt the love here.

I've definitely felt... I haven't felt the love all the time though. Like that's for sure. You know, we love hanging our athletes out to dry here from time to time. And I just feel like we could do better, a bit better than that. You know, a lot of our athletes go through a lot and we can guide them a bit better. And you know, that's why I'm always happy to stand up for an athlete. Say when Novak came to Australia and the way he was getting treated,

I stood up for him then. I think Australia has some improvement to do. You stood up for him when he came, when there was the big hoo-har over, what, he wouldn't get the Vax and then- No, he was getting kicked out of our country and they put him in a refugee hotel. Jeez.

Yeah. Why was he being kicked out? Because he didn't get him in a refugee hotel. Jesus. Yeah. And he was being, why was he being kicked out? Because because he didn't get vaccinated and he will be. And you stood up for him? Yeah, just more so the standing up for I don't think we can put the greatest athlete of all time in a refugee hotel. I mean, I don't know. Did you get shit for that?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, half of the country kind of agree with me and half of the country didn't. So it was a tough situation. I put myself on the on the chopping board, but I just and me and Novak hadn't didn't really have a great relationship at all as well before that. So I just stood up for the guy. I felt like he needed a voice and I gave it to him. Do you think there's a racism factor in there as well? Big time. You've also said Australia is one of the most racist countries in the world. Of course there is.

One of our sporting legends told me and my family to go back to where we came from. It's arguably the most racist thing I've ever heard in my life. Of course there's racism. Are we going to put her name out there? I don't care, but I'm just saying like... Dawn Fraser, 86 years old, eight time medalist and world record holder. That's what I'm saying. There have been times in my career where for my relationship with this,

how am I going to go represent a country that one of our greatest sporting ambassadors tells you that? Did she? I think she apologized. Yeah, but a sorry doesn't always fix things, does it? Not always. Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. Like, look, I mean, every time I go overseas and commentate, every time I, you know, do these interviews with some of the biggest names in the world,

like I'm Australian, they like I represent them every day, even though I'm not healthy at the moment playing like I represent this country every day. When whether I'm doing things globally, like I'm known as the Australian. So, yeah, I feel like I've represented this country a lot. I will be representing this country for the rest of my life, I'd hope. If they came to you tomorrow and said, and you were fit and like,

we want you to represent Australia, as far as if they buried the hatchet, if I can put it like that, then for you, it's like, were you looking for something more than them saying, I would have you now? No, no, I would play. For sure I would play. I would want a bit more of a former, you know, just something, of course, not just, oh, okay,

we want you now. It's like, that's not how it works. What would it be, do you think? I don't know. You're doing a lot of breathing and a lot of thinking. I'm trying to listen and think about what you've said and yeah, I am. I'm known for my breathing and thinking. Okay, I think I've got it. You feel like there needs to be a conversation. Yeah, of course there does. You can't tell me to go back to where I came from and then

expect me to play for the country. Yeah. When you're on the tour, and this would be before you were obviously happily settled with your girlfriend, are there groupies? 100% definitely. Come on now. Come on. I told you I wasn't going to hide. Yeah, of course there are.

Talk about that. That's a very broad question. What of course there are. Talk about that. That's a very broad question. What would you like me to talk about that? What specifically? Do they, you know, like in wrestling, I think they're called ring rats. Do they have a name in tennis? I don't know. I don't I don't classify girls with those sort of names.

But yes, there are fans that are very, very into the sport, very into the sport. Jesus. Why are you, you're crazy. You want to ask me so many questions. You're not giving me anything. What do you want? Yeah, well, I'm PR trained now. I'm on my best behaviour. You got me on the worst side of my career. I'm no fun anymore. They're very into the sport and they love to...

They like to learn tennis one-on-one. There you go. They like to get to know the athletes. You're hilarious. But there isn't a name that you wouldn't use. I mean, I wouldn't say ring rats. That's offensive. Yeah, I know. I don't know.

I'm out of the game, man. They're not called like tennis bunnies or... No, no, no. You're not going to get it. I'm not going to give it to you. I'm not giving you it. I'm not going to give it to you. I'm not giving you something. I'm not going to give it to you. They trained you well. They trained me well, yeah.

Conspiracy theories. Yes, conspiracy theories. What would you like to ask me? You don't think the pyramids were built by humans? No, I don't. Impossible. Do you? Definitely. How? were built by humans. No, I don't. Impossible. Do you? Definitely. How so? Well, as opposed to who?

I mean, I just think they rolled huge blocks around on logs, right? That's insanity. The fact that, how is that possible they got every measurement correct and they're all aligned. And they did it with rolling large stones on logs is an insane statement. Why the door is so big?

Like, who needs to walk through the doors if they're that big? I don't know who it was. I just don't think that we were capable. It's 2024 and there's... We can't even all get along. And you think that we built the pyramids. You're insane. That's insanity stuff. What about landing on the moon? I have my thoughts on it.

What are your thoughts on it? Well, obviously I think we landed on the moon, as in humans. Who, who, who, who landed on the moon? Do you think that the Americans did first? Is that a trick question? I'm just asking you. Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin

and the other guys whose names we've forgotten. Okay. But obviously it was of the first Apollo mission it was those two and then Michael Collins stayed in the thing, in the spaceship. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a lot of interesting stuff there. Come on, so where are you with it?

Oh, I just, I don't know. I'm not going to answer any more questions. I just think like it was interesting the Americans did it first because they had not one successful rocket that ever took off and then all of a sudden they were on the moon. You can read about it. They had not one successful rocket take off and then all of a sudden they were just on the moon. You said conspiracy theory, so I'm just going with it. Go with it. Give me another one. No, I'm not going to because this is going to go out. Maybe they're going to come to my house and raid my house or something.

I'm not doing this anymore. What about your OK? The Earth is. What are you? Round or flat? You go first. The Earth is round. It's round. It's round. Yeah, it's a globe. I'd probably be inclined to say it's round, but I'm also not surprised if it was the other thing either.

Maybe we need to have a beer and have this off record. Really? How deep does this thing go? It goes deep. All the way down? Is this what you do all the time? You talk about conspiracy theories at the end? No, this is a first for me. Oh, so you just did this with me?

Yeah. Only because, well, but it's quite unusual that we have a guest who's on record as saying like they've got doubts about the pyramids. But they might all believe that. All my guests, as far as I know. I could guarantee you that some of your guests would have that belief. Do you spend a lot of time on the internet? No, I don't. I just feel like you're on there a little bit. No, I'm on there.

I'm on there. I'm like, I'm on X. I'm not like on Google, like searching about things. Yeah, yeah, X. That's what I mean, X. Sometimes, like I'm on there when I see and hear about controversy. I like going on there because I like to keep up with it all. I'm a commentator now. You didn't exactly pick a fight, but then the media spun it that you picked a fight with the Hawk Tour girl. I did not pick a fight with her. This guy. I did not pick a fight with a hulk tour girl. That was the best.

All I said, I just think it's very cringe worthy that someone can do that. And then like all of a sudden like is, you know, I guess famous. It doesn't that prove like what I'm saying, like there was a time where someone like you had to work very hard to get to where you are today your platform people respect you because you're good at something just like my I spent my whole life practicing day in day out being the best in the world mastering a craft and getting good at something where now I could just do an interview about huck touring someone's and then becoming famous you don't see anything wrong with that you don't see anything not wrong with it but something a bit strange about the world

we live in today, day and age. Conspiracy theories though, right? Well, it's sort of, I don't know if that relates or not, but I think there's a part of you that is an outsider, a maverick, a disruptor, right? And then there's another part of you, maybe this is, there's overlap here, but is representing something more traditional, like a sense of certain norms, like of morality and culture. Can I put it that way? Of course, definitely.

Definitely. I feel maybe you touched the wire. Did you touch the electric fence too many times? You don't really care though, like in your heart, like in the sense that you're not really worried on a personal level. It's not that you think that... Of course not. I'm not worried on a personal level. But I know I've spoken my mind a lot and it can sometimes lead me to places where it's clean up for other people and I don't want to make their life hard. I don't want to cause a scene. It's too much attention on those things already at the moment.

And I've got a lot of things that I've worked hard for at the moment. And it's not worth being controversial over. Like it's just, it's not going to change anything. Yeah. For instance, if I wear a hoodie at BBC, the whole world goes wild. Oh no, he can't bring his sort of fashion into BBC and the tennis world. Why could he do that? They will expect me to wear a suit.

Why would I wear a suit? But then on the final, I wore a suit. I surprised them all. What about, because in a way this is the whole dichotomy. Like that there's a part of you that loves Wimbledon. I'm speaking for you. Correct me if I'm wrong. The tradition, the sense of occasion, everyone has to wear white. If you don't you get fined. You have to be very quiet. There's a sense

like you dress up. It's one of the few times when I will put on a suit, weddings, funerals and Wimbledon, because it's just what you do. And at the same time, there's a part of you that, I think there's probably a lot of you that loves that and a part of you that actually wants to disrupt it. No, I don't want to disrupt it. I think there could be other spins on it. I think there's probably that loves that and a part of you that actually wants to disrupt it. Oh No, I don't want to disrupt it. I think there could be other spins on it I think that no one has to wear a college shirt I don't think everyone has to wear a college shirt where that's why I wore a Tight white shirt with a white tank shirt. I wore all whites. I just did it my way

I think there are other ways to wear all white and I think if You know you have a 15 year old safe if say if he or she, I didn't... So if they were to turn on the TV and watch tennis and they were watching commentary, do you think they'd be more inclined to keep the TV on if they saw me wearing what I would wear with my style that's more relatable with them or watch four old white dudes with a suit on? You know the answer to the question. Yeah, I mean you're right. That's my point. I understand the tradition of it but the world is changing, sport is changing, we need new

fans. I'm just saying if you can incorporate other things to make the event cooler and more appealing to other people. Like, I'm not, like, yeah, I'm not a criminal. No, but do you feel like the world sees you as a criminal? No, no, no, no, they don't. I'm just saying, like, because when I rocked up in my outfit the first day, they were like, how could he? But my insights were the best.

So. You've got a lot of love for your punditry of course I thought I've done since I was seven years old I've played against these people I see them more than my family of course my punditry was gonna be good you know them inside out exactly how are you doing I feel like I mean I can keep going if you how's your energy I'm okay I mean I don't even know how long we're supposed to go for. Because I wouldn't mind like... I feel like we got to an interesting place that was quite awkward, which I enjoyed. If we dial out, you know, one of the surprising things in reading about you was how serious your... Are you alright talking about mental health stuff?

Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's how serious your mental health stuff over the years has been, right? Like it wasn't, you know, the stress and strain and whatnot, but correct me if I'm wrong, like that basically you've been through periods of extreme like, well, depression, I guess, it's certainly self harm. And even I've read suicidal ideation.

Was 2019, was that the worst year? Yeah, that was a really, Yeah, that was a bad period. Can you shed any light on what was going on with you at that time? I guess I was just struggling with being who I was was hard at that time and I was playing. I didn't feel like I could take a step back from the sport and kind of work on myself and get myself in the right headspace. I was just playing and playing and playing and kind of dealing with everything. And it was just, it was a dark time.

Like I was drinking and then just, it was, I was spiraling out of control and I was continuing to play and travel. It was a lot. Yeah. You say drinking. Whenever I read, I've read you say like, oh, I was drinking every day. I'm thinking, well, I'm not a professional athlete, obviously, but you know, I like a drink like drinking every day. If it's a couple of glasses of wine, 20 or 30, 20 or 30. What drinks in a night? Easy.

I drink like a fish. What was your, what was your tipple of choice? Anything vodka. I drink like a fish. What was your tipple of choice? Anything vodka, anything. Right, so it wasn't just drinking, it was like fully getting loaded. Yeah, but then just wake up and play Nadal the next day. Give him a good run for his money. For real? Wow.

It was pretty hectic, but oh, it was good. If you were drinking on tour, would you have been drinking on your own? Most of the time, yeah. Sometimes, I mean, if like another player or something wanted to, but rarely. Very rarely. And then was there a moment when you hit bottom or how did it all, how did you come, I mean, in a sense, or is it a misnomer to imagine that like, you don't sort of come out of that and be like, this is one day when you're like, oh, fine now. No, there was just, I just needed to fix a lot of relationships in my life and just be happy again. I just hated traveling. I hated playing. I hated training. I hated just doing anything that was basically my responsibility. So yeah, it was a hard, it was a hard time.

But yeah, I had great people around me. Great people around me. They could see you were going off the deep end or was it really because you were drinking more than usually? Because you'd always like to drink. Yeah, but just like I was like an autopilot. I was not fun to be around. I was just like, you know, it was just, yeah, it was just not me. I was just so like, rude, mean, blunt, like just, I was just not a nice person and I was just downward spiral and yeah, they just turned it around. And then Andy Murray was someone who noticed that you had cuts on your forearms. Mm hmm.

Yeah, it was pretty hectic. How did that happen? Um, just, pretty hectic. How did that happen? Just sharp things. Yeah, I got bored and then I guess just doing things like that and then he noticed it. I mean, I obviously couldn't go on centre-court or Wimbledon with it, so I had to put like a sleeve on. Yeah, no one noticed. It felt at the time like that was another way of kind of relieving your stress. Like it just... No, it was horrible. I mean, I almost like kind of enjoyed feeling that way.

And that's when I knew I had to get out of it. Yeah. It's been said that it's a way of making your outside match your inside. Like the sense that like... That's a good analogy. ...the outer pain kind of... Yeah. That's a good analogy. kind of, yeah. That's a good analogy. Did you trace that back to your childhood? No, my- It's not forerunner events. No, I just felt like I was,

I didn't deal with all of the outside noise where I always felt like I was letting people down and I just didn't wanna be like Nikirios and go train and tennis was the head of the snake in the stress. And then it was just like, I couldn't wait to get home and start just like drinking. And it was just like I couldn't wait to get home and start just like drinking and it was a bad lifestyle. Waking up always in autopilot not having good like conversations, not excited for anything, not appreciating small things, just like yeah just

it was just a bad time. And then at a certain point you got some help, right? In fact, you were institutionalized, if I can put it that way. Did you do some residential treatment? Yeah, well I did for one day and then I had to play in a doll the next day so I didn't really have time on my sleeve. So you went straight from, was it a kind of a clinic, a hospital, a kind of rehab? Yeah, it was like that. Well, they wanted me to stay for a bit, but I was like, I have other duties that I need to fulfill. Yeah.

That's wild. I nearly got him though. I nearly beat him. Which was this 2019? Yeah. How many sets was it? Four. Seven six in the fourth set.

Nearly had him. That's wild. That's almost surreal. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. It was a crazy time, man. I looked back at it and I was like I'm so glad I'm not at that point in my life. It was hard, it was hard but I had good people around me. What do you think helped? I mean I know good people around you but was there any lesson that you took away from it? Well not just that, it's

just like people, like even when fans come up to me and you know they me and they look at me as if I'm the best thing ever and they're like, oh, we need, what do you think on this? Or a little advice or just want a signature. That stuff's eye-opening when you have that, when that's your lifestyle every single day. You got to be a bit less selfish, you know? Can't be so internal all the time. Yeah. There was no particular habit.

I mean, you cut down on the drinking or did you kick it altogether? No, no, I still drink. But I just, yeah, I don't go just like crazy on it. I still have fun. All of those, so all of those little, you made a number of small changes that added up to kind of a new outlook. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I think my family, my best friend, my agent,

and they were the biggest immediate help. And then obviously I've got a great partner now who understands my lifestyle, how hard it is, and that she's miles better than any female I've ever met. And I just enjoy my life now. I'm excited to do things. A movie with purpose now which is that was not how it was back then.

Is that still a date like do you keep it do you check in with your mental health like do you feel like in a good place generally now? No, I mean, I fight it most days like I don't wake up feeling amazing and I don't I feel like I know my steps to get me out of my bad thinking now. I feel like I could go back into those habits in an instant. That's how it feels. I feel like I could do those things, but I don't want to. Before I didn't have any resistance. I don't want to do that now. You know, when you check Wikipedia, it says tennis player inactive, right? I don't know if that's a technical term

or it just means you're not playing at the moment. When was the last time you played competitively? I played a match last year. And that was just like my first match back since my knee surgery. And then I played that match and my knee wasn't ready. And then I ended up finding out that my wrist needed surgery. So it was actually a blessing in disguise because if I'd taken more time for my knee,

I would have come back and actually would have just sent me back longer. But I wouldn't say I'm inactive now. Like I could come back now and beat 50% of players. But I'm just not, I don't want to do that. I want to come back because I, my fans deserve a, a, a better, like a better version of myself that I am now on the, on the court. And I want to go out there competing for tournaments. Like when you made the finals of Wimbledon, you're making quarter finals of grand slams and you're winning events.

You want to go back knowingly thinking that you can have a chance and have a shot at winning these days. I don't want to just participate and I know the world's not going to be nice on me when I come back. They're gonna all of a sudden forget that I was out for a year and a half with injuries. They're just gonna think that it's the Nick Kiriost that has all the expectation again. So and when he loses it's not okay. So I know that I'm gonna have to be resilient mentally and physically but I'm in a to be resilient mentally and physically but

I'm in a great great space on court now. Like I've had the best two days since my my wrist Reconstruction ten months ago and today on court was was amazing So I'm super confident in three weeks that could potentially play, you know doubles at the US Open We'll see so it'll be you'll be good. So you might be playing as soon as the US Open, we'll see. So it'll be good. So you might be playing as soon as the US Open because you've got a few, you're 29, right? Got a few years in you potentially. You definitely feel like you are gonna come back. It's not like in terms of singles, you've not retired from singles.

No, no. But at the same time, like I look at how Andy Murray is doing it now and how Rafa is going out. I don't wanna be like that either. I don't wanna be kind of crawling to the finish line in a sense like what Andy Murray has achieved in this sport is second to basically no one.

Like unless you're Novak Federer on a doll, like the next person is Andy Murray. It's like you've achieved everything. You deserve to go out. I think a little bit grace, more gracefully than he's done. I think like that the surgeries, that the pain, it's not worth it in my opinion. Like you've achieved everything.

Oh, I don't want to do that. Cause I know how hard like have a serious surgery and the recovery is like, it's not easy at all. I know what he's going through. So it's like, I can't, I don't want to go out like that. I would, I'd rather go out knowing that I gave the people a good glimpse of my peak and then, you know, played a good year or two and then that, like, I'm okay after that. I don't have to go out like and scrape the barrel of every single tennis ball ever.

It's kind of that winner's mindset. Definitely. It's the love and obsession that they have too that I don't have. And like, that's obviously what's made them super successful and that's why Andy Murray's Andy Murray because he's doing like he's upset like it's he's obsessed he can't can't live without the sport and that's special but that's just not me either. No you're that way about conspiracy theories. Yeah no you I think you are because you keep mentioning it.

Oh man, I really enjoyed talking to you Nick. Thank you, I appreciate that. No worries, it was fun. Hello again, welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that. I did. Thank you to Nick for taking time out to speak to me. Looking back, he was obviously more guarded in some respects than he has been in the past in the sense that he's got a reputation to keep up. He's doing broadcasting and clearly doesn't want to damage his relationships, which I will understand. I also noticed that, I don't know if you noticed this out there in Radio Land, he seems to yawn when he's uncomfortable. So make of that what you will. I mentioned the Andre Agassi autobiography, which I since finished, which is called Open. I totally recommend it as an insight into the loneliness and the sort of all-devouring

quality of being a professional tennis player. Anyway, it's very well written and well worth the read. And Ghost written by the man who also Ghost wrote Prince Harry's memoir. Fun fact, it's also worth saying that Andy Murray came up in the conversation and he has of course since retired from tennis. So we wish him all the best. Andy Murray, into the future. Good luck with all your endeavors. Despite mentioning his hope for playing at the US Open this year, that didn't happen for Nick. He conducted the on-court post-match interviews with players throughout the tournament though.

We spoke about his on-court confrontation where he incorrectly accused the spectator of being drunk. It's worth noting he settled a legal case with the spectator. I think I might have mentioned that, and apologised for his comments and donated £20,000 to the Great Ormond Street Hospital charity. OK, on to conspiracy theories. Nick said, I guarantee some of your guests believe the pyramids are not man-made. I can't speak to that. I can guarantee you pretty well that they are man-made. The Egyptians had an advanced civilization. They knew about geometry. They knew about all kinds of things. Astronomy. They didn't have the wheel.

They had logs. They had slaves, right? So you take 10,000 slaves and a block of rock and you roll it around on a log. Okay, end of the mystery. Moon landing fact check. Nick said, it was interesting, the Americans did it first because they had not one successful rocket that ever took off. And then all of a sudden they were on the moon. Okay, that isn't true. With all due respect to Nick, they had a number of successful rockets in fact I'm gonna read you what it says Project Mercury had six human piloted flights and eight automated flights all of them successful between 58 and 63 they were also the four successful Apollo missions before Apollo 11. Okay, Dawn Fraser, the swimmer who told Nick and his family to go back where they came

from. She did in fact apologize. I think I said that in the chat. She said, I want to unreservedly apologize for any comments I made this morning, which may have caused offense to my fellow Australians, including Nick and his family. She went on to say, my intended message, which was not delivered as articulately as it could have been, was on a purely sporting level rather than meant as an attack on Nick's ethnicity. So there you have it.

If you're interested in learning more about tennis or just soaking your eyes in some classic matches from the golden age of tennis, you could check out Gods of Tennis on iPlayer in the UK and PBS in the US. Yes, it was made by my production company. It's a shameless plug. We'll put a link in the show notes. I think that's it. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.