The Louis Theroux Podcast - S4 EP1: Willem Dafoe on collaborating with Lars Von Trier, being buried alive, and his 'distinctive face’

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

To kick off the new series, Louis is joined in the studio by acting legend Willem Dafoe. Renowned for an astonishing range of acting roles - from Poor Things to Spiderman - Willem discusses his life and career, including collaborating with provocative director Lars von Trier, what it’s like to be buried alive on camera, and how his face has a mind of its own…    Warnings: Strong language, as well as some adult themes.     Links/Attachments:     Platoon (1986)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8weLPF4qBQ  Antichrist (2009)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO-TNfPzh_k   Last Temptation of Christ (1988)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW6jxGaIias  Poor Things (2023)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlbR5N6veqw  Spiderman (2002)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t06RUxPbp_c  Beetlejuice Beetlejuice (2024)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-vKW4ZboU&pp=ygUVYmVldGxlanVpY2UgMiB0cmFpbGVy  Nosferatu (2024)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px6S0RxfAHg  The Loveless (1981)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJEmcxXR7H0  Wild At Heart (1990)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQIdBfrF0Ik  Shadow Of The Vampire (2000)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B15iesNMa8  Body Of Evidence (1993)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51xEHzC-rjQ  The Witch (2015)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQXmlf3Sefg&t=31s  The Northman (2022)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mamgc47SOE  Birds Eye Advert - Polar Bear Fish Finger (2010)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsKWjO213EY  Mercedes Advert (2013)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfqNfbCQzpo  Jim Beam Whiskey Advert (2011)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYXFLX2vB-Q     Breaking the Waves (1996)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqZh-9AiCs    At Eternity's Gate (2018)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T77PDm3e1iE&pp=ygUaYXQgZXRlcm5pdHkncyBnYXRlIHRyYWlsZXI%3D  Pink Flamingos (1972)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwGZ6Mv4qko  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1212, are you ready? Hello, Louis Theroux here and welcome to my podcast called, unbelievably, the Louis Theroux podcast. To kick off this brand new series, we have none other than acting legend, the one and only Willem Dafoe. Where do you begin? He's made so many films, 150 according to my notes. Growing up in Appleton, Wisconsin he began his acting career in the experimental theatre scene of New York in the late 70s. I first came across his work when I watched Oliver Stone's film Platoon, probably like a lot of people, that was my first Willem Defoe experience and he plays, well, he plays a kind of embodiment of an upstanding and likeable, almost slightly angelic, is that too strong? Soldier. Obviously the main protagonist

is Charlie Sheen, but it's an incredible scene. I won't give you the lowdown because it's a spoiler, but if you haven't seen Platoon, check it out. Since then he's collaborated with some of the most acclaimed directors in the world doing boundary pushing work in controversial projects like Lars von Trier's Antichrist, Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ, and more recently, Yorgos Lanthimos's award-winning Poor Things. He's also started huge commercially successful blockbusters including the Spider-Man franchise you've heard of that? In which he played the Green Goblin, that was Sam Raimi, love Sam Raimi, Evil Dead, Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, and most recently Robert Eggers's adaptation of Nosferatu,

which came out earlier this month. We recorded this interview in September 2024 while Willem was in London promoting Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, the follow-up to Beetlejuice, and my cousin's also in that, Justin Thurow, maybe you've heard of him. So I was at the premiere with Justin. I didn't talk to Willem. All of this comes up in the conversation. I'd also recently come back from my summer holidays in Crete, which had got me thinking about Cretan history and legends and the story of the Minotaur, half man, half bull living in a labyrinth underneath the palace of King Minos. And then I was thinking about this building in Spotify. Anyway, it became an

opening question to Willem, bafflingly, because it really didn't go anywhere. But that explains why my mind was stewing on that. There's a tiny bit of bad language, I'm sorry. And you know, I think you'll enjoy the chat, you'll see that there's a journey, a journey in which I'm navigating the very appropriate level of amour propre that Willem brings into the conversation. That's a French word, if you don't understand it, look it up. And then my eagerness to create a puckish and playful conversational ambiance. And we arrive at, I think, a beautiful place of mutual understanding. All that and much, much more after this. It's weird, I sit in here on my own for five or ten minutes before the guest comes in and it's quite an odd, I was thinking about it just now and I was like, I just got back from

Crete, I was like, maybe this is how the Minotaur felt when he was being fed his human victims. Yes. Because you know, this is slightly subterranean, did you notice? Yes, I noticed, this is a strange place. And it's quite warren-like, it's labyrinthine. Yes. And then I've been in Crete and I was like, maybe I'm like the Minotaur, which isn't a nice image because that would imply you were a sacrificial victim.

But each year the Minotaur would be fed 12 men and women of noble birth. Oh, okay. Well, that's not me. Well, I beg to differ. I'm talking about the aristocracy of talent. Okay. I was just in Greece. Were you? Doing a movie. Yeah, I loved, first I was in Corfu and then I was in Athens, which I really fell in love with. Your ghost lent the most.

No, not this time. Really? No, not this time. I mean, I've sat with him two times, but right now, in fact, I was shooting with a Spanish director, a Greek production, international production in Corfu and then Athens. Well, we've arrived very quickly at the core detail of the Willem Dafoe enigma, which is productivity, right? Well, yeah, that happens by accident. But you're very... I mean, maybe that is, because there's nothing that enigmatic about being industrious. Thank you.

Thank you for that. Nevertheless, the striking thing in preparing for this interview... Are we all good to go? There they go. They just scurry out. The striking thing was... Is how much work you've made. You know what, to be honest, it surprises me. Between the theatre and the film stuff, I'm always struck that that's how I remember my life when I have to remember something.

I think about a film or a theatre piece and think what was I doing at that time to kind of do a check on where I was in my life. I try not to get psychologized, like certainly near the beginning of the chat, but since we're on the subject, do you have thoughts on what it is? Because what comes across in reading about you is how central to you being productive is working enjoying the work yes you're never happier correct me if I'm wrong then when you're just engrossed immersed in a project um you

know I'm happy when I'm not working too but I think you know when you're working that's a structure that I enjoy you know know, it's a way to apply myself. And then certain things are taken care of, I don't have to worry about the little things, you know, I have to worry about what I do. And other things are taken care of, taken care of for me. Where in my life I have to take care of everything. Because I'm not a prince, I keep it pretty simple. I know you divide your time between New York and Rome, or is it a little place outside Rome?

Both. You have both? Yeah. And the place outside Rome, I believe, is somewhat farm-like. Yes, it's a farm. Or more like a zoo, maybe, because I have lots of animals. And enormous vegetable gardens, and it's a nice piece of land.

But you travel a lot for work. I was sitting next to you. This is going to creep you out. Oh God. Did I behave myself? I couldn't tell. You're supposed to say yes. I would love to say yes, but I can't confidently. It was the after party for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Oh, just recently. Yeah, last week. Yes.

Uh-huh. Here in London. My cousin is in it. Who? Justin Theroux. Crazy. No, he really is your cousin? Yes.

Really? Yeah. That surprises you. It surprises me only because he's not English. Yeah. I'm American. Ah, but you've because he's not English. Yeah. I'm American. Ah, but you've been here a long time. No, I was born in Singapore. This isn't about me. My father is American. No, it can be. It can be.

I love that. It's your show. Have you seen any of my programs? No, I haven't. I'm sorry, but... Does jiggle jiggle mean anything to you? Jiggle jiggle, it means something to me, but not specifically. I mean, I hear jiggle jiggle mean anything to you? Jiggle jiggle, it means something to me, but not specifically. I mean, I hear jiggle jiggle and I get some images in my head. Okay, fine. But my cousin, yeah, my dad was born in Medford, Massachusetts, outside Boston.

And my dad and mom met in Africa where they were in the, he was in the Peace Corps. She was doing volunteer work teaching. Very good. Yeah, and so they Settled in London. I grew up with a US passport I know how dual nationality but I have a lot of American family including Justin Thoreau I say through and he's been in in a few projects with you. He invited me along We're getting to the point now to to the premier, the London premier. I say you do look like him. You know I'll leave that on the table, I

would love to, he's a good-looking, I mean he's a Hollywood, he's got great hair like you. At the London premiere of Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, where I'm getting, I feel like I've been talking about this too long, what struck me was, oh wow, Willem's here at the premiere and so is Michael Keaton and so is Winona Ryder and basically you were all there. And then I thought, oh I'm very naive, that must be in the contract to turn up. I don't know that it is. If you do the work and you want to support the film and you want a good relationship

with the director and everything and also a good relationship with the studio, you go to bat for it if necessary. Sometimes they ask you, sometimes they don't. Usually it depends on what kind of role. For example, in this role I'm in the ensemble, so it's not a natural thing. But I like Tim Burton so much, and I think the movie's going to be popular. So I thought, what the hell? I'll show up and be with everyone. It'll be a nice way to see everyone, and I can talk about the movie and I can support

the movie. So as far as contractually, I think there's always a way out if you don't want to do press. But I don't mind doing press. I really don't. I feel like if you do the movie, generally you should support it unless something traumatic happens to you. And I think I can safely say, while sometimes you're a little disappointed by things, I've never had that kind of trauma. So generally, if I can, I try to support a movie. I mean, this might be a naive question or maybe a silly question, but how invested are you in the idea of the movie being good? Like, is it a nervous moment when you sit down and

watch it because you're thinking, I hope it's okay. I usually have some sense of it and that doesn't mean it'll fly but I have some sense of all you can do is be there and do a good job and you know try to fold in and give yourself to it and if you've done that then you worry less about the result because you've done what you can. I mean, the nature of film is very collaborative, so let's face it, on some level you can obsess about its reception or how it's going to be because I don't really control that, absolutely. What I do control is when I'm on the set, you know, being in a good place to be available and you know find out how I can best contribute.

I mean it all sounds very Pollyanna, but you know it's really it's every time you get together on movie it's always different. You look around you say what are we doing? Who do we got? What are strong points? What are weak points? What do we have to discover? What do we already know? All those things are floating around. But very seldom am I thinking, oh, this will be a great scene. People will love this.

Or this is going to be a great movie. I say, oh, I'm excited to do this scene. I'm excited to play this character. I'm excited to play this character I'm excited to work with so-and-so, but I don't I don't think about the reception so much That doesn't mean at all that I don't care because in fact I do very much Because if you like something You want it to get out there and and if you think something's beautiful beautiful it's a nice comfort to have other people like it as well. You've said that, this is a paraphrase, the important thing for you or the thing you enjoy most maybe is the process, the actual making.

I don't know but yeah, I mean I think for my life the making of the movie always trumps the movie itself. Yeah. And go figure, it can be five months of your life. And there's all kinds of adventures and challenges and triumphant moments and failures and problem solving and all that. That can be a very full event for you. And then it can boil down to meh, or it can boil down to something great. But as I said, yes, of course, the two are connected, but there are many hands and many

processes between the making and the actual thing, including promotion and distribution and all that that really have a hand in the fate of the movie. So much in life, you know, when we have certain expectations, that can be very oppressive and can really limit your accessing certain impulses. So I always try to keep my mind, my eye on the prize and be present and get behind what I'm doing so that it's organic and it's committed and something, I have some connection to it so no matter, this sounds paranoid, but no matter how it's sliced or diced I can stand behind it because it still basically has the DNA of a good intention. You know I said slightly glibly earlier that the you know the central enigma was product... Glib? Well,

whether or not, how dare you? I didn't notice. But you know the fact is you've been very productive, you've also worked over a long period of time, many years creating work of an extremely high standard. You're very beloved. But there's a tension between a kind of maverick risk-taking approach to your work, but also kind of you get a lot of repeat customers. You've never been embroiled in any scandal that I could find of any serious sort. You sort of have the dream career in one sense

of being in certain respects of Hollywood enough to be in good order with the people who finance films and to keep getting work, but also to define what your life looks like, to not be consumed by box office and variety and all that stuff. Have I articulated anything? That sounds good. I recognize some of it. I don't recognize other parts of it. When it's your life, you're thankful for the good things, but you're also very sensitive about the bad things. And some of those bad things may not be apparent. Was that an invitation to ask you what the bad things are? I suppose so. You're clever.

Consider yourself, like feel free... No, listen, listen, I mean, I'm very happy now, it's a good period of my life, I find interesting things to do. I'm interested in many things, you know, I love many things. I'm going to cut you. That's not going towards the bad things. And that's fine. He's the angel. Who wants to talk about the bad things? Bad things are personal. And I'm not sure there are bad things, but I had to throw it out there. you get the impression that you know I'm not

living the life of Riley. Yeah, I know. You don't like talking about your yoga. I loved this because you feel like it other people listen and think that they what they hear is you should be doing yoga and you don't want to put them a little bit on. It's like it's like if you're a vegetarian or something or a vegan or something to go out with people and say, oh, I'm vegan. Just order. Just order.

Because I think people feel stressed when they're in the presence of someone that they worry about a judge unimplied. It feels like a signaling. And it's also like someone talking about their religion. If it's not your religion and they're talking about it like it's the thing that makes their life beautiful, there's an implied thing of a lack of something in the other person. So, yeah.

Can I ask, because we're on the same. I can only say that and then when you say yoga That's a very broad term, but I mean I do an asana practice and what does that I study us That's the that's the the different postures Doing the stanga yoga practice and for many years I studied Vedanta

But For many years I studied Vedanta, but that's a very broad description. Six days a week? Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. For an hour? Sometimes there's a reason. Now it's an hour. It used to be longer.

I've recognized that there's certain things that I shouldn't push. Is there a secret to the hair to your your? Talk to my mother talk to my father Jeans, I guess so probably, you know my hair you've got hair. I've got some I'm not I'm not this isn't a bit for sympathy and I feel bad saying it because it sounds like, I don't, I've got, uh, what's alopecia, so I've got, do you? Yeah. It came on about two, two years ago. Listen, this isn't about me. I keep saying it, you know, uh, it's always going to be about you. Your, your, your kindness, your evident, um, you know, it's obvious. I mean, I don't know, you can be an impre-, you can do an impression of being nice, which you're successfully managing to

do hitherto, like in this room, but what speaks to me more eloquently or more credibly is that you get a lot of repeat business from the directors you work with. Yes. So that suggests they value you not just as a talented collaborator, but a considerate and conscientious one. That sounds good, but I also value value them and also I like this idea. Oh stop, you don't have to be nice about them, we're talking about you now. No, no, no, but hang on, hang on, I was going to get into something else so let me talk.

But I also come from the theatre and I love this thing where there can be a company of people and you can do these things and it creates a different another dimension when you see the same people in all these you know filtered through different for lack of better word stories or events so when there's a director I love being a part of their language you know a part of their work that you know, a part of their work, that thrills me besides the obvious things about having a shorthand, being comfortable with them, having a trust. And in the best cases, they kind of create things for you because they know you, they

know what you can do, and they give you a good setup. And let's face it, the best thing a director can do is give you a complete world and give you a good setup and let you go and watch you and if you get off track you know slap you around a little bit. Is that so nice? That sounds good. I mean so I came to this having first seen you in Platoon probably like a lot of people which was a Okay, I'd say that was the first movie that, you know, was seen internationally. I think there were other movies before that, like To Live and Die in LA was an important movie. William Friedkin. Yeah, but I think that was maybe...

That didn't get a great release, but it was appreciated after the release, because it's a film that filmmakers like. Which I haven't got to. And likewise I didn't get to the first one you did which was with Catherine Bigelow. Right, The Loveless. The Loveless, which I'm intrigued to watch as well. Is it fair to say she lifted you from the world of experimental, well maybe not lifted

but she... Well she was starting and I was starting so we were two people you know trying out this new thing. She came from the world of semiotics and she had made I believe short films before that but that was the beginning for her. So and I was going to, I think I was hearing you say, lifted me out of the world of experimental theater. Apparently not because I went on to work for another almost 30 years with that company.

So there was no leaving. That was my identity. And the movies, you know, became another part. And then the movies a little bit overtook that particular company because it was difficult to – since we're doing original work and it was taking a long time to make that work, every time I'd go away for a movie, a certain part of the thing that we're working on had to either be frozen or my part had to be really minimized. So it was a difficult balancing act. And we did it for a while, but then I think it got a little difficult.

We've got time a little later maybe to talk about your upbringing and the fact that you grew up in the Midwest in Wisconsin, but at that time when you got your break in movies, you'd been working in experimental theatre, you were in New York having moved there, right? Doing sort of avant-garde experimental theatre. Would you say informed part of your process going forward? Oh, very much. To this day, that formed who I am as a film actor and as a theater actor. This basic thing of, you know, it was really about making things and it was really being part of a group that makes these things and you're responsible for all aspects of the

production on some level. And as an actor, you're concentrating on doing things, on committing to actions and folding into the actions and submitting to the story. Not so much interpreting, not so much doing characters, playing people and giving them their day in court and having an experience that was transparent enough that the audience could be with you on that thing that you're doing.

I worked with Richard Foreman, a great theater director, and he used to always say, stories hide the truth. Everybody's obsessed with stories because it's easy to hop on that bus. But I think the power of film is something other than that. It has something to do with, you know, color and sound and other things. And I think working in the theater made that kind of natural to me, that I'm not just an actor, I'm a performer. And I am material. I am material in this, you know, stew that we're making. And I like that.

Richard Foreman was a new name to me when I was researching this and I realized, you know, he was an important figure for you. Huge. And so I read a tiny bit and it was, I had a strange reaction because I didn't fully understand what he was talking about some of the time, you know, just skimming the surface of his ideas. And even that idea of stories hide the truth, I have a little difficulty understanding. Why not? Because people hop on the train and then they go only to what they recognize. And the truth is something that's hidden usually because all our habits, all our politeness,

all that niceness that you're talking about often hide certain social conventions, hide what's going on. And I kind of get repelled at the idea of, you know, you do a theater piece and you tell the audience something, you know. It's like you have a superior understanding or you've created a situation where you can tell something they haven't thought of. That's not usually the case. We've got to jumpstart our sense of wonder and our sense of mystery. That's all. And if we deal with too much button pushing, then I think people can find an enjoyable experience.

They can even find an empathetic experience, but it doesn't change them. It doesn't transform them. It doesn't challenge them in a way that people, I think, generally don't go towards, but I think we need that to stay alive. And the theater and films are a beautiful way to break that wall because you're given this opportunity to rethink reality. I said a mouthful, didn't I? That was good. Was it good? I'm not sure.

But keep that bit in. It was heartfelt. You know what? It started to make sense, which is a good sign. Like I started thinking about David Lynch. I regard him as an avatar of maybe that kind of filmmaking which is not linear, not cliché, kind of incomprehensible at times, driven a lot by visuals. Then coming into focus with recognizable bits of plot and characterization. I don't make the comparison idly because one of the

other things I saw you in back in the day was playing the role of Bobby Peru in Wild at Heart, right? Which was, you know, I saw that film like 25, 30 years ago when it came out. You're going to say 20 to 25 times and I thought this explains everything. No, probably, no, once. I swear, once. I don't often see it. But here's my point is that I could probably mention three things in that film. One was the motif for the recurring visual of the match. Do you remember the matchhead like Ignite here? Yes, oh yeah, sure.

There's an explicit sex scene where Nick Cage and Laura Dern are having sex. And that left an impression on you. That left an impression. And then the scene with you is Bobby Peru, a kind of brown-toothed hit man, who's being kind of predatory and disgusting, and Laura Dern is there, and then she's utterly repelled by him, and then she seems to, as I recall, begin rubbing her thighs together. She... He seduces her.

And she starts being attracted by him. I don't know about attracted, but she's going to submit to his desires. If that's attraction, I don't know, but she's decided she's going to throw it down. No, but he's proposing. He's proposing for them to get together. And then of course, I don't worry about spoilers here because you either know the film or you'll seek it out or you won't you know but yeah, then he gets to the point where she's going to be with him and

He breaks it off because it was just a little game for him. He was just fucking with her. Yeah Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a beautiful scene You know, we shot it very simply. The beautiful thing about that movie was, I mean, I really enjoyed working with David, but everything was so clear. The world was so clear. I did no research. It was in my imagination.

I had these teeth that really made the character one of those triggers that you look for, that make you feel different, make you think differently, and then before you know it, you're entertaining impulses that you don't know. And then beautiful writing from Barry Gifford. I was going to say, my flex here is that I've read the novel that it's based on, which is called Sailor and Lulu by Barry Gifford. Barry Gifford, I mean, to me, he's a huge talent. I don't even know if he's still alive. You

don't hear about him that much. Yeah, of course he's alive. Very much alive. And a true cineast. Hey Barry, how you doing? Hi Barry. If you're listening to this, apologies for killing you off. Yeah, that's terrible. Welcome back. He's very much alive and he's still writing and doing lots of things.

It's a terrific, in its way, it's a short novel, largely dialogue driven, about these two drifter characters kind of going through a quintessential Americana. You've also said that all the characters are in you in different ways, you're giving expression to aspects of yourself. It's creepy to imagine that Bobby Peru is sitting across from me even as I speak. Bobby Peru is also sitting across from me No, I gotta believe that you know we're all capable of any kind of behavior. We are we are given the right so wish I mean I given the right through in well cultivated, baby. Yeah, do you think so? Yeah, you got to work

That's the work. That's interesting to let that little devil come out That's interesting. To let that little devil come out. Wow, I'm going to sit with that for so long. I really believe that somehow, because I've seen it in my life. I've seen it in my life. People can really surprise themselves and are capable of any behavior. Yeah.

Look at history. Big time. I mean, I agree. Look at some big shockers there. The Nietzsche quote is, no, actually I won't do that. Ah, do it. I want to hear it. Well, no, we don't have to do anything with it, but I'm always happy to hear a Nietzsche quote.

Because madness in individuals is rare, but in periods of time, in nations, in religions, in something, it's the norm. I.e., we're all involved in forms of organized madness and that the behavior that we pathologize is much more a part of us than we care to recognize. Okay. Does that kind of make sense? That's part of our conversation. I don't think that was relevant at all. Because you're an illustrious guest, I went into overcompensation mode and I watched a

ton of your films to make sure I was well prepared. How was that? It was great. Did you see Antichrist? Yes. Why did you go there? It's a good one. Because that's a good one and I don't think people know it.

That's the one I was going to land on. So I watched. So we're in sync, baby. Florida Project, Poor Things. Good. Shadow of the Vampire. Good. I'm curious to know if I this one

As I say good, I thought what if you get a body of evidence? You know every time I come to the UK they give me a hard time about body of everything But if I'm in a Latin American country, they love it for people people who don't know, it was the movie you made with Madonna. It was kind of post-Basic Instinct and it was in a somewhat similar... It was and it was for people that didn't care for it, they thought it was like a knockoff of that. I don't think that was it. It was kind of an old-fashioned courtroom drama thing with this sex spin on it and and Madonna was at the height of her you know she was doing

her sex book then while we were doing she was preparing her sex book she was at the height of her sexiness and I think I don't know I won't judge a movie but some people like it some people don't know. I won't judge a movie, but some people like it, some people don't. What can I say? She dripped hot wax on your nipples? Yeah, but that's no big deal. Was it real? Yes, but that's no big deal. I've done a lot worse. I mean, I'm not talking sex things. I've done much more difficult things in movies than that. I feel like the reviews were savage.

I don't feel like that they were. But I feel as though in some respects you were collateral damage in a pylon directed at Madonna. As you said, at the height of her sexiness in every sense, she was catnip for the tabloids. And that anything she touched, and if she was seen as trespassing in movies as a sort of creature of...

An interloper. ...music, an interloper, then, and the movie wasn't perfection, then there would be hell to pay. I guess in a serious mode though, because you were actually on an amazing trajectory of films and it felt like it was intended as a big, successful obviously Hollywood film. It was actually quite a modest film. I think it did okay but did you feel in any way, it must have hurt a bit?

Because where I was going to go was... I mean you get the idea. I was there, I did it, some people like it, some people don't. There's other movies to talk about. Shadow of the... where did I get, where was I, I put that in there to be cheeky. Actually it was where I was going, Shadow of the Vampire, The Lighthouse,

I watched last night. I liked that one. Directed by Robert Eggers. Robert Eggers, who was a great director. Who'd made The Witch, which I also loved. And I just did Nostra Aetua with him. Okay, and The Northman, so you've done three now. Yeah, yeah. And just to finish. So you've done three now.

And just to finish up, and I watched Adverts for Birds, I Fish Fingers, Snickers, a brand of car and a brand of whiskey. Yeah. Why don't you just watch the movies? The ads were pretty good too. I think we were going to arrive at Antichrist, which for me was, all of those movies have their merits, but Antichrist is something special because Lars von Trier personifies the trickster, the imp of cinema. He's both a visionary, a provocateur.

I have a huge soft spot for him. I do too. No, I just like the movie because I think it touches, it gets misidentified I think because of some of its extremists. But I think it really speaks to interesting things about women's power, men's fear of women, the struggle between the logical and the magical in life. There's lots of, you know, sexual politics in it and it's not about misogyny at all. I think he identifies with the women more than the man. I can tell you that because I play the straight logical one in the movie. But I think he has it. He's genuinely curious and he's a great filmmaker. So he, you know, the opening of that movie and the epilogue of that movie is great cinema. Did it surprise you that it was divisive?

I was a little surprised. No, listen, for cinephiles and for people that I'm interested in and have good dialogues with, they were interested in this movie. It's not set up as a crowd-pleaser. Or romp. No, it ain't. But you know what? Neither is it a kind of dry... No, it's got lots of fun stuff in it. It's plenty of action. And actually, there's two things about it that I could imagine put

people off. One is there are explicit scenes of genital mutilation. Yeah, that sounds terrible, but in context it's pretty satisfying. Not the word I had in mind, but definitely it feels like it's part of your system choice. There's this problem where we reduce these things that are very complex to kind of the warts, you know? And then that's what goes out. It's particularly a problem as real film criticism disappears and gives way to short form and TikTok and influencers and all that.

There's not the dialogue that some films of sophistication deserve. And you can say, ah, shut up. Be an actor, make a movie, you know. But I think it's a problem because it's starved cinema a little bit, the high-minded cinema that actually makes way for the popular cinema because I always feel like there is a, remember Reagan, you know, drip down economics or whatever. I think the Lars von Trier's of the world, look, Lars, the fluid camera, you know, that he used on something like Breaking the Waves, that trickled down and becomes a standard

for a lot of, you know, series now. I like that. It's almost like the Overton window of artistry gets pulled a little bit and more things become, it kind of refreshes the vocabulary and the grammar of filmmaking. Absolutely, absolutely. And the same for the theatre, for any art form, but it's usually the people that, you know, are the target and seem a little outre or seem a little perverse or seem like those are the people that, you know, we've got to let them go.

Are you friends with Lars? Um, I, you know, like the main drop, I keep in touch with him. Yeah. Yeah. He was going through a depression when he was making it. Yes, very much. And, and so at times... He used to say to me every day,

listen, I may not be there tomorrow because I can direct you remote from a trailer I have. With a monitor? Yeah. But he showed up every day. But he needed to tell me that every day, me and Charlotte. Wow. Yeah. It kind of breaks your heart.

So he's a guy that struggles, struggles with many things, but he's got a big heart and he also is given a lot to cinema. For people I feel like as a Lars von Trier fan I'm in danger of leaving some of my audience behind so I'm gonna say, or people in radio, Lars von Trier, Danish auteur of the highest caliber, but who specializes in having a, what is it, it's almost like a nature, red and tooth and claw take on the human animal and gender relations. And I think probably sometimes does things with a provocateurish, I don't think he's trying to represent absolute truth.

I think he enjoys parts of it as a tease. Anyway, he takes on themes. But often in his films women are being brutalized. I think that's fair to say. I know that sounds a bit crass and maybe reductive. But it is the case. And I think as a result, some critics, not just the general audiences, have said, this is ugly and unnecessary. Yeah. Well, it's always hard to... You know, when you start sanitizing certain images because you have a judgment about them, sometimes that can have a very negative effect.

Sometimes those can be more instructive and more... They can do greater good. Yeah. Sometimes to put it out there. You took the film to Cannes. Was it well received? Yes, very well. Was it the following, was it Melancholia that got into hot water like the film after or the two films? No, well, Melancholia, you know, he had this comment about Hitler that if you look at the context, you know, Louse has always

been set up as kind of this, as you say, provocateur, you know. Puckish, contrarian. Yes, yes. You recently said Russians are people too. And everybody at Cannes supports that. And he just crossed the line and then he got cancelled. That's it. That's end of story.

But let's go end of the story. Let's go on from Laos. I mean, Laos is a perfectly good, as you say, maybe your audience doesn't know him. So let's talk about somebody else. Okay, let me go. If I may. Please. Okay, where we're going to go is here. So we mentioned my cousin, Justin. Yes. He used to work as a ticket taker in a theatre, and he told me this the other night that he was

in one of the theatres when, this is a long segue, but when Last Temptation of Christ came out, the Scorsese film. Another way of approaching this is because it turned out to be controversial as well, but in a very different way. In a way it was cancelled at a time when it was called to be cancelled because it was cancelled by the religious elements of the religious or Catholic community. Religious right. Yeah, the religious right. At least in the States.

It was a huge deal at the time. Yeah, it was. And I thought it was a shame because I think it didn't get the distribution it deserved. Some theatres pulled it. Some, many. Did they? Many, sure. And I mentioned Justin because he apparently would have to check people's bags.

Right, right. Because the threat level was so high. And in fact, you'll know this, October 22, 1988, some crazy Catholic group set fire to San Michel Cinema in Paris while it was showing the film. The attack injured 13 people, four of whom were severely burned and severely damaged the cinema.

Also, there were many incidents like that. Someone drove a semi into a theatre. You know, these kinds of things. Do you want to say anything about that? That must have been upsetting, right? Ah, yes. You know, it's just strange in the world of slasher films and Bourne and all that, that people got so upset about this because it's based on the novel. And, you know, broadly speaking, they're changing the classic story a little bit to consider the character of Jesus in a different way.

That's all. It's not this plot to overthrow some religious thought, you know, or change some religious thought. It's a consideration, another way of looking at the human aspect of Jesus as opposed to the divine part. R. It didn't feel especially irreverent, like Jesus does miracles and I mean, he's got human traits. Nevertheless, he's depicted as having a yearning for a family life and having sexual interests,

and that evidently was considered... Well, remember, remember that a lot of people had protests against the film without saying it. It was the idea. It was the idea. They don't even like the idea of Hollywood making a like the idea of Hollywood making a movie about Jesus unless it's sanctioned by them. You know, is your faith so weak that it can be threatened by someone else's idea? You know. You're kind of hitting the greatest hits here. I'm trying to. I'm trying to keep it moving. The original cast included Aidan Quinn as Jesus. Did you know that?

Of course. Sting. I know Aidan and they tried to do the movie but it fell apart for various reasons. And then when they got it together, the second time I had a very simple call that Mark Scorsese wants to talk to you." And I said, great. And I said, what's it for? This movie, Last Temptation. Oh, they're getting that together.

Yeah. And I said, for what role? They said, Jesus, you idiot. And I read the script, and I thought that was a wacky idea. But then I read the script, and I said, okay, I get it. Yeah, I want to do this badly. I mean, to work with Martin Scorsese would be enough, but I thought it was a role at that point in my life that I was connected to.

Did any of that stuff touch you? Of course. You mean the controversy? Only to a degree. I mean down the road there was a one project in particular that I was cast in and the studio uncast me because they didn't like that I was associated with Last Temptation. Yeah. But I don't want to do a big crocodile tears about that

because it could have been much worse. But I didn't feel it so, so much. I think most of the responsibility fell on Martin Scorsese. And I get censored on this, but I think it's really true that somewhere people think actors are kind of a little horish and they'll do whatever to get a good role or something, so they don't hold you responsible somehow. They really look to the director in the studio. Became a huge anti-Semitic

thing too because an association that this religious right talked about, you know, the evil people in Hollywood. So in America anyway, that was the main fight. They put a construction on it that was shadowy Jewish people who really, I hadn't realized that. That was a big part of it. It was a political opportunity for them to rally around an issue. Next. Okay, you know, if there's a sign, I'm just thinking about that.

So you were offered the role and then... These are films, I mean, they're good films to talk about and they're interesting films, but that's, you know, let's talk about, let's go, if you don't mind, fast forward. Yeah, we will. Because I'm a little fresher on that. I'm curious whether... And I've spoken about those other things because that was so long ago that I've spoken about them ad nauseam and I'll be a little fresher if I talk about something

that's a little more recent. Have you ever auditioned? This is again maybe a naive question. Have you ever auditioned? Do you just have a meeting and then obviously now you just sit down? I've auditioned. I remember auditioning for the Green Goblin for example. Now we're getting somewhere. Now we're getting somewhere. Now, now. Yeah, now you're doing your job. For Sam Raimi. For Sam Raimi.

He's a great filmmaker. I was doing a movie in Spain and they sent somebody down to tape me. It sent me pages before and in my little hotel room, I did these scenes and they taped me and yeah. That was obviously a superhero film. 2000. Yeah. It was something before they were huge juggernaut.

Yeah, there were superhero films, obviously, but like I remember explicitly that some of my friends are like, really? You can do that? You know, they weren't what they are now. But I thought it would be fun, and I love doing action stuff. And I thought I love doing things sometimes with a big mask, it's a great opportunity to really get away from yourself and do something extreme and fun.

So I was totally down with it. And Sam Raimi, that know, that was a very sincere movie in a funny way. He really believed in Spider-Man. And he walked a beautiful line, sometimes in the same scene, elements of drama and comedy right next to each other in a beautiful way, I thought. And I haven't seen him in a long time, but when I in a beautiful way I thought and I haven't seen him a long time but when I did see it I thought wow beautiful you know he could switch it really well. It was with the Tobey Maguire incarnation yeah of Spider-Man and yeah really holds up. I bet I bet because it was it was solid

and of course you, effects have changed and we had really kind of simple effects. I was on wires a lot, which was a lot of fun. We had to do a lot of it practically. So I was flying around on making these huge giant leaps on wires and it was cool. And one of the legacies of that, as you may or may not be aware, I don't think you're big on social media are you? I'm not. You're a meme, I'm sure you've been told that.

I am aware of that I must admit. You are not just a meme, I mean you're very memeable in fact, my kids were especially excited about me interviewing you because of the meme factor. Which is actually not nothing in the sense that it gives you a currency. And I think speaks maybe to something about your face. Maybe. And expressiveness. Yes. That's better.

Yes. You've said you look like the boy next door if you lived next door to a mausoleum. I probably said that in a weak moment 30 years ago, okay? This is the problem with the internet. It doesn't breathe once it's locked in there. You have something special about your face. I don't know. Yeah, I'd buy it. Yeah. And I was saying, and I think you made another comment where you said that you. I was on the subway.

That one? No. Oh, that's a different story. Yeah, actually, maybe it was. Go on. No, I was taking my kid to the zoo and we were on the subway in New York and it was when New York was still dangerous and some guys got on the train and they took special interest in me and they were looking at me and whispering among each other and they looked rough.

So I thought, oh man, I'm going to get robbed or even with my kid, they're going to mess with me, you know? And then one looked at the other and he says, yeah, it's got to be him. Nobody looks like that motherfucker. So that was my proof. That was it. Nobody looks like that motherfucker So that was my proof that was it Listen, I see my face because I get made up sometimes and I'm looking in a mirror, but I don't think about my face But I I do know because sometimes when I see a movie My face has a mind of its own, but I let it go

I don't I don't censor it, but I certainly don't think about it. And when people, sometimes when people don't understand performing very well, they say, wow, you made some great expressions. I didn't make the expressions. My body made the expressions because I was doing a particular thing, and then it manifests in that expression. But I'm not thinking about that. My body gets driven by something else, you know? Something mysterious.

Think of all the functions that the eye does in every second. So much of what we do that we think that we control. We don't. So as an actor, you just have to direct yourself in the sense of commit to certain actions and kind of be there and have the world drop away and make your own world. Be there, be there. Because then you can let go of who you think you are and what you're hanging on to

and it opens the door to being something else and that's the nature of pretending which is certainly the base of performing at least to my mind. You know I've heard you say similar, it was great by the way, I heard you say similar things I think about how acting comes so not naturally to me. I love the work that I do, which tends to be interviewing or making documentaries where I'm out on location and there's curiosity, you're in the moment, you're absolutely, if it's going well,

you're lost in what's going on. You're in this eternal present of reacting and being curious and being completely consumed by what you're doing. It seems completely- That's a what you're doing. It seems completely That's a divine place to be. It's a lovely thing to do, and I've read something similar in what you've said about acting, but when I've acted, when I've tried to, it seems to be the opposite where I'm thinking

about the lines, I'm thinking about the people around me, I go rigid, right? And I just wonder That's the struggle. I mean, every actor struggles to find that place where they're free of those things. So learn your lines, damn it! Right, learn the lines is probably a good start. What I mean, you've sort of talked a bit about this, but what advice do you give, maybe you've gone as far as you need to, but what advice do you give to actors? Like, you know, at its most basic, is there a key to acting well? Like how do you...

You know, everybody finds their own way. And acting isn't one thing. You know, you always have to change your approach and your job is always different. Sometimes you're driving, sometimes you're supporting, sometimes you're reacting, sometimes you're a passive character, sometimes you're an aggressive character, sometimes you're doing that thing that has to be done to push the story forward, sometimes you're, I don't know, you get the idea. There's a whole variation of what acting can be, so I'm a little loathe to say this is the way, you know. The only advice that I give like young actors is don't do this to get that, do this to do this. And that may sound

really flat and prosaic, but I think it's very important, not only in acting but in life. Unpack that a tiny bit. You mean you choose each project on its own merits? I'm not talking about projects. I mean lifting this cup, you know. Don't get ahead of yourself. Lift the cup, lift the cup. And in the lifting of the cup, something this cup, you know, don't get ahead of yourself. Lift the cup, lift the cup. And in the lifting of the cup, something will happen to you. I agree with that. I mean, in the sense that people will say, have a five-year plan, have a 10-year plan.

I've never had a plan. I think that's, I can't do it because life is unpredictable. And if you take unpredictability out of it, you're going to be pretty tightly wound. I mean, some people find success that way. That's why, I mean, I'm nobody to give advice. Some people do that and they're perfectly happy. I don't have a judgment about it. There's no one way. Yeah. But this, do this, to do this, it's a big thing.

That's when beautiful moments happen in the theater. That's when beautiful things happen in the performance and film. Not about making choices and making clever things. It's really about the depth of giving over. I mean, when I did this Van Gogh movie, there's so many. I read him exhaustively because he was a prolific letter writer. It was called, it's not one of series. At Etern of at eternity's gate and directed by Julian Schnabel, of course I mean he was interesting craft He was interested in a lot of things but I found a parallel when I learned how to paint and

Julian really taught me that you don't You don't paint the likeness. You don't paint the tree, you paint what you see. And what you see is color, shadow, line. Everything gets broken down. It's similar with acting a little bit. Concentrate on those things. Don't try to express the tree, express the fundamentals of where stuff comes from

and where things are going to. And if you start to get that sensitivity to the origin and where things are going, you keep it alive, you keep it curious, you keep it floating, you can surprise yourself that way. Does that make sense to you? I think so. I think so. Well, let me ask you this then.

In respect to, is acting always a pleasure or are there times when you feel like you're not quite feeling it? Oh, sure. Sure, absolutely. Like any job I suppose. It's like anything, yeah. Sometimes you're in the groove, sometimes you ain't. But the possibility of getting back is always there.

And that's what's nice, you know, sometimes you can be working on something and it feels dead and then if you don't kick yourself and if you stay on it, it'll come back around. You haven't done, correct me if I'm wrong, much TV. I haven't done really any explicitly TV. I've done things that have ended up in streaming. Is that a choice? I don't know. I mean, you know, as long as I have movies to do, and interesting movies to do, I'll do that.

Do you think the work in movies tends to be a little more interesting? For me, yes. It's, you know, you go out with a team, you've got a director, not a showrunner, and you make something. And of course it's got similar pressures that commercial pressures and financial pressures that TV has. I also like to give myself to a director. And if the director is changing all the time, and if it's like a series and the actors have more power than the director because they know the material and they know the run of the day better and then you've got someone

that's you know basically looking at algorithms and audience response and all that and he's guiding the ship. It's not the way to go. I think you got to go off, you know, go off to the new world, you know, have your adventure and then come back with gold or glass beads. I don't know, you know. It's romantic. It's maybe silly and as I say, I'm not qualified to really talk about it, but that's where I am. How are we doing for time? We've got a few more minutes. I feel like, I know you always talk about this probably, but it's nice for people to know a little bit about where you came from, how you came up. Born in 1955, Appleton, Wisconsin, one of the favorite sons of a Midwestern city alongside Harry Houdini. Yes.

Joseph McCarthy. Yes. The senator behind... The Red Scare. The Red Scare and the witch hunts, the McCarthyite witch hunts, that's the right term, isn't it? Yes. Your father was a surgeon, right?

Mum was a nurse, they worked together. You were one of, I think, eight children, one of the youngest, and kind of co-parented by your elder siblings. And maybe, I wouldn't say in any sense, well, correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't sound as though it was in any way a neglectful upbringing, but you weren't the center of your parents' world either. No.

And I think they were a little bit of a model that I've always sought out, you know, kind of creative families. And, yeah, and also I also tend to work with the people that I love. Not always, but my two long-term relationships are both women directors. So I'm repeating something from my past maybe. Yes, you've created a work family. You've got one son of your own correct, but so you haven't repeated the sort of as it were organic Family he used to work with us, but then he hit adolescence and I swear to God he got awkward all of sudden He was a beautiful dancer one of the most beautiful dancers I've ever seen

but then he had adolescence and one of the most beautiful dancers I've ever seen. But then he had adolescence and he got self-conscious. We all do in adolescence. Yes, but it ran deep and I think it was, you know, doesn't take a psychologist to think that it had to do with he didn't want to compete with his mother who was a director and his father who was an actor. So he chose another path. He became a lawyer.

He became a lawyer. And he also grew up in a theatre company that, you know, was quite marginalised for a lot of the time I was there. And it was a tough life. That was the Wooster Group? Yeah, the Wooster Group. And they're in New York with a kind of, but imagine Bohemian New York, CBG, kicking in with the Ramones You got it. You got it. It wasn't I mean, it's we were working so it wasn't like we were out every night we were working but I mean the life was rough then and

Some of the people didn't make it, you know what I'm saying? So He was witness to that. So maybe- Do you think he saw like- Oh God, he was the child of basically childless community of artists. Downtown punk scene of the early 70s in New York. Yeah, I don't know about punk, but yeah, we were doing stuff that, you know, I think was new. And so how, I mean, like, they're kind of very cliché. Again, it comes up in all the interviews and profiles is you'd seen the moon landing, because being born in 55, you would have been 13 or 14. And then the idea of being in space made a big impression.

So you got into it. Well, do you want to finish this? Sorry to make you do this. No, when I saw that moon landing, I was always interested in challenges, you know, funny little things, solitary challenges. And after I saw the moon landing, I thought, how long could I stay isolated? This is a true story. Yeah.

So one weekend, you know, I locked myself in a closet with a little food, and I was allowed to go to the bathroom. But you know, it's this kind of thing. And then I thought basically that's the performance artist impulse. Take an idea and test yourself against, maybe that's not a performance artist thing, but you know, as a kid it was to take something, construct a situation, apply yourself to the situation and see who you were through that situation. And I think that's some way to express the pleasure that I get when I say, oh, I like

performing because it's such an adventure. I guess that expresses it in a slightly more articulate way than it's not about, you know, just having a good time. It's about, it's a form to deepen your experience of life, hopefully. Yeah, it feels almost like a Joseph Beuys kind of thing. Yeah, I'm down with Joseph Beuys. Or indeed Marina Abramovich.

Who is a friend of mine and I've worked with. Yeah. Yeah. I've worked with. I like transgression. Did I say that? Yes you did. Oh that was probably said 50 years ago. That doesn't apply anymore?

No of course it does but I think when I say I like transgression I think it's essential to challenge the things as they are. So, transgress, I guess, goes against. I don't know the origin of the word exactly, but when I think transgression, I don't think about shitting on the floor at a performance. That's not what I'm talking about necessarily. That can be a valid choice. Yeah, it is.

And I've seen that performance. I haven't done it, but I've seen that performance. Who did that one? There was a guy... A Japanese performance artist in a space right near my house. Divine famously ate dog poop in a John Waters film. Famously I saw it. Did you? Yeah.

The movie? I mean, I saw the movie. I wasn't there. That's kind of like locking yourself in a closet. Oh my goodness. Well, so what do we do with the fact that we want transgression, but we also want to be kind, right? Are these values in opposition in any way? No, they're all together. They're together because you're

you're trying to be useful and you're trying to figure out, you know, you're trying to figure out what matters and it's not just for you because in your giving yourself to a performance, I don't want to get too holy about this. You know, you're trying to do a service. Somebody's got to do it. Let me do it. You know? What kind of transgression do we endorse? Do you think like... Things that make us think and reconsider things as they are. That's all. Yeah.

That's all. Shifting the paradigm and... Yes. And disrupting things a little bit. Yeah. And I always felt like that, you know, because I think it's a good, you know, we've got to shake ourselves down, you know, every once in a while. I don't want this to sound like a loaded question.

Uh-oh. Here we go. But it is. Well, it shouldn't be, really. Maybe it is. You've never worked with Woody Allen? No. Which it is. You've never worked with Woody Allen? No. Which seems surprising.

Not really, because I'm not a New York type and he really deals in types a little bit. I'm not, you know, like a typical Jewish New Yorker and I'm not a blue blood uptown guy. And he deals a lot in those things. Have you been invited? Never. Interesting. Never. But you know, sometimes you can admire someone or you can admire a filmmaker or a film and

you're just not part of their language. You're not part of their world and you just got to let it go, you know. You would have liked to have been in one? I don't know, it's funny. I'm aware of that because so many friends and so many people have been in Woody Allen films and of course, you know, he's had a long career and his work has changed a lot over the career

and now he's kind of somewhat canceled because of certain personal things. So it's, you know So it's a whole subject. But before the last 10 years, yeah, sometimes I thought, wow, he's never talked to me about anything. But then I sit myself down and say, you know, I'm probably not right for anything that he's doing. I love that we got a tiny glimmer of insecurity there. Hey, it's...

Maybe not. Or maybe not. No, I'm not Mr Confidence. I mean, it's... being an actor is always filled with little rejections and, you know, yes, some celebrations, but little rejections always. In terms of that word cancellation or being canceled, do you think we're in, you know, and also having talked a little bit about transgression, do you think there's anything to this idea that the culture is more risk averse, that people are policing the morality in

a way that feels inhibiting? I think it's not even worth talking about because it's so obvious. Really? Don't you? I mean, I don't know because I live a life that in some ways is very simple, but also I live in a bubble. So if you don't spend a lot of time on social media or you don't watch the news a lot or you're not on the internet much, there's a lot of things I don't know. And I let it go because there's other things

I'm interested in and as you get older time management becomes so important because there's so many things I want to do and there's so many things that I love to do and certain things I just don't get involved in. But do you think, and again feel free to leave this on the table, but you said that in a way that seems so obvious, it's something I think about a lot but I don't have a conclusion about. Do you say that because it's touched you in some way? What?

The idea of a culture that feels risk averse, the possibility of… Of course, of course. In what way? Of course. Just in people's behaviour. you. Sometimes people are cancelled for things that seem disproportionate to their merits. That's all. Having done risky work creatively and boundary pushing work, but also specifically we talked about Lars von Trier, a lot of those are sex scenes. I could imagine on set it could be

awkward, right? And you want everyone to feel involved and consenting and appropriate. Is that a difficult, what does that process look like? If this was tabloid, I should be careful because it would be what they'd run with. But I like doing those scenes because stakes are different and what it's required between the actors is very concrete. And because it's intimate, it kicks it up to another level and you have to really cooperate with each other.

Now having said that, there's a common discussion about sex scenes, you know, they think, oh, they really did it or oh, they they just went and the director, the little pig, he or she just filmed it. It's seldom like that. There are so many technical aspects to it that they aren't fun to do for the pleasure of touching and all that. They're fun to do for the collaboration because the stakes are higher. But actually, they're usually quite unsexy and quite technical.

I did a film with a Chinese woman and I learned so much because she was talking about, you know, you really, it's best to make a score, you know, kiss here, kiss here, kiss here, kiss here, wherever, you know, but make a score and so there isn't all this, you know, stuff that won't be good for camera. Just, you know, feeling doesn't assure that that feeling will be conveyed. You got to consider the camera and what it looks like and what triggers if it's like a neurotic scene or it's supposed to convey that these people are really connected, you just can't jump into it. Anyway, they're interesting to me,

I must say. I know you've got me pegged as Low Road and that's fine but have you? Oh boy. Do you? No, no, right? I'm just trying to talk with you. Yeah, so I have I don't you know, I don't have I haven't decided about you That'll happen in the car after I'm trying to keep it a little bit of Serious little bit of light last one tree it cuz I can this is probably something comes up in the interviews in that

I don't go there. Don't touch it. No, no It's morning for me. Yeah, fine. You're going to see how respectful I am. You're respectful. Totally. I think the meter just went like that a little bit. Do you have boundaries in terms of...

Because what I get from you is experimental, up for it, excited by it. Like when I watched The Lighthouse, I might be wrong about this, but there's a scene towards the end, huge spoiler alert. You're buried alive. Which is very memorable and that was a challenge and that was hard and that ran deep. And that scene, I shouldn't blow my own horn but that's pretty incredible.

I would agree. Fuck. It was scary. I bet. Yeah. And when I was seeing, again, second spoiler. But I know they wouldn't let me die. And I knew I had to say that beautiful text. So I had a couple things that I really had to accomplish.

And they were beautiful challenges. So the director of the situation gave me something that I carry with me even today. Not as a prideful thing, but I learned something about myself and about suffocation, about being buried alive. Mason- He's shoveling earth on your face and there you go. It's one of those things where you watch it and you think this is acting but it's also this is I am now watching real life. Yeah, and And Willem Dafoe the actor is being suffocated with earth. I hope you're not thinking about that

But that's okay viewing you. Okay, so I suppose it was in my head. Okay No, it's funny that you mentioned that because that was very memorable scene for me. It's quite brief, but it's extreme Do you have red lines again? That's where I was gonna go If someone said we're gonna do we require you to fully have sex That's what you know, which I think has happened in some movies like that's that's something, you know, it's obviously a big decision I don't you know, we don't deal in the general we deal in the specifics I don't, you know, we don't deal in the general, we deal in the specifics. What are we talking about, you know? I don't know, I don't have, of course, naturally I have

things that I'd like to do and that I don't like to do, but everything requires context, you know, when you're talking about decisions like that. I love that. Everything's on the table. We need you to cut off one of your arms. That's not going to happen. That I feel comfortable to say. If I'm not sure go at, but I feel like that was a nice outpoint. Hi, welcome back. Hope you enjoyed that. I did. It's always a privilege when you talk to someone, well, with that level of that kind of a body of work and specifically who occupies the sweet spot of artistry and commercial viability, right? We're all trying to find work that's fulfilling, but that can also pay the bills, right? And at his level, he's obviously, I think we said like he's never done TV because he really doesn't want to do anything that doesn't feel challenging or interesting or you know, and

he's all about, and that's the kind of the downtown art scene, vaguely hippie-ish or bohemian part of him that has never died, which is a great thing. In hindsight, maybe I could have gone deeper into his sense that we are being hemmed in by a sort of overly censorious attitude. It was striking that he was keen to, well, it sounded like he was keen to work with Woody Allen. Just to say that, to be keen to work with Woody Allen is controversial in this landscape. By the way, those of you keeping Louis Theroux podcast Bingo Cards can tick Woody Allen off, because that came up. But obviously the other, some of the other ones didn't come up. Like, have you ever blacked up and what's your view of it? And Harvey Weinstein. We're thinking of others. If you have others, let me know

what should be on the Louis Theroux podcast Bingo Cards. Lars von Trier, his comment about Hitler. Here's a little more on that. In 2011, he spoke before the Cannes premiere of Melancholia and announced, quote, I'm a Nazi. Yeah, you can see why people might have been confused, offended. He also said he, quote, understands Hitler. Organisers of the festival issued a statement saying that they were, quote, disturbed by the remarks Lars Von Trier apologized. I submit that without comment. He's an artist and a provocateur. That's my comment. Bobby Peru, maybe my favorite part, well, one of them,

of the chat was where I brought up Bobby Peru and he said that there was Bobby Peru in all of us. I said, I'm not sure about me. And he said, cultivate it. That's the, he said, that's the work. Like, which I love as a phrase, like theatrical phrase, I've got to find my Bobby Peru, something I've been embarked upon ever since recording the chat. And I'm up to 10% Bobby Peru in my day to day interactions, which my wife is not thrilled about. Okay, that's it.

Credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.