The Louis Theroux Podcast - S4 EP2: Jade Thirlwall discusses being ghosted by Harry Styles, clashing with the Gallaghers and coming up on X-Factor

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

Louis sits down with pop-star and former member of Little Mix, Jade Thirlwall. Jade tells Louis about being ghosted by Harry Styles, clashing with the Gallaghers and coming to the public’s attention on X-Factor.    Warnings: Some strong language and discussions of sensitive themes, including mental health issues and eating disorders. For further information and support, visit https://resources.byspotify.com/     Links/Attachments:     BEAT – UK Eating Disorder Charity   https://www.beateatingdisorders.org.uk/get-information-and-support/get-help-for-myself/i-need-support-now/helplines/    TV Show: ‘The X Factor’ (2004 – 2021) – ITV  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEY1ejsweY4DgMwOVJeEaBA    Song: ‘Angel Of My Dreams’ - JADE  https://open.spotify.com/album/6Wf3fqCoGcOYah2lTcwyAA    Music Video: ‘Angel Of My Dreams’ - JADE  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEc-oy93lf8    TV Show: ‘Boybands Forever’ (2024) – BBC (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0023h94/boybands-forever    Song: ‘Black Magic’ - Little Mix (2015)  https://open.spotify.com/album/05MKaTFdEtg64AtPmN1nQ7    Song: ‘Power (feat. Stormzy)' - Little Mix (2017)  https://open.spotify.com/album/2lSpirhgGBiKAyl38y8RJs    Podcast: ‘Offstage: Inside The X Factor’ (2024) – BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001vtth     Album: ‘Glory Days’, Little Mix (2016)  https://open.spotify.com/album/2GJLzxAajkFeyDPVH7X4Cs    Song: ‘Shout Out to My Ex’- Little Mix (2016)  https://open.spotify.com/album/4TvPWe1vbrh0hozmCoSFRI    ‘Little Mix wins British Group’ – The BRIT Awards (2021)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO-HcY_8iwE    ‘LITTLE BELITTLE: Noel Gallagher slams Little Mix’s Best Band Brit Award win saying they’re ‘not in the same league as Oasis’’ – The Sun  https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/15217658/noel-gallagher-little-mix-embarrassing-brits-win/    Song: ‘212’ - Azealia Banks feat. Lazy Jay (2011)  https://open.spotify.com/album/1haAnMI7BAQEAzrYjzpTvP    Song: ‘911’ - Lady Gaga (2020)  https://open.spotify.com/track/6qI0MU175Dk2DeoUjlrOpy    Jesy Nelson: ‘Odd One Out’ (2019) – BBC (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p07lsr4d/jesy-nelson-odd-one-out    Song: ‘Boyz feat. Nicki Minaj’ - Jesy Nelson (2021)  https://open.spotify.com/album/4ShgsMHEHPPLI6Dk16HNF1    TV Show: ‘Later… with Jools Holland’ – BBC (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00248kc    East is East (1999)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg-zwt-XMFE  Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1212 ready? Mic number one. Hello, Louis Theroux here and welcome to my podcast called, surprise surprise, the Louis Theroux podcast. Today my guest is singer, songwriter and former member of multi-platinum selling girl band Little Mix, Jade Thulmohr. Jade found fame on the British version of The X Factor, the talent show created by Simon Cowell. She first auditioned when she was 15 years old and after applying three times she was eventually given a place in the aforementioned Little Mix.

The group went on to win the series. Since then Little Mix have released six studio albums and have had 19 UK top 10 singles. They also became the first girl band ever to win a Brit award for best British group. In 2021 one of the band members, Jessie Nelson, left the group and Little Mix continued as a trio until announcing a hiatus in 2022. In July of last year Jade announced her solo career and released her debut single Angel of My Dreams, which you may have heard, which also has an amazing video which I suggest you check out, very artistic and creative. Her debut album is due out this year. I was curious to speak to Jade not just as someone who enjoys good pop, but also as someone who is curious about the industry and how it works. I was curious to speak to Jade, not just as someone who enjoys good pop, but also as someone

who is curious about the industry and how it works. I made a three-part series for the BBC called Boy Bands Forever. I'm a fan of boy bands and girl bands. And Jade's always been eloquent and honest about her experiences of being in a girl band and also of coming up through X Factor, all of the emotional ups and downs that that entails, all the behind the scenes shenanigans, and we speak about that in the chat. This one was recorded in person in mid-December last year. What else is there to say? A warning that there is strong language in the episode, there were discussions about mental health and eating disorders, so prepare yourself

for that. All that and much, much more after this. Okay, first of all, thank you for doing the show. I enjoy your music. I haven't gone deep into the albums, but I remember Little Mix coming onto my radar, just listening to the radio and I think it was Black Magic and I was like, oh, that's different. That's fun. And then, and then the other singles and I met Stormzy and I remember mentioning, because he featured on Power. Did you see that? Yeah, I saw that interview. Yeah. Do you remember what he said?

He was very lovely about it. It was along the lines of like most of his tracks on YouTube have like whatever they have, 40, 50, 60 million. And then that one's got like maybe 250 or 300 million. He did the job, didn't it? And he knew that. So. they have 40, 50, 60 million and then that one's got like maybe 250 or 300 million. He did the job didn't it and he knew that so yeah but he's always been very lovely about us and I think he didn't have to do that because he's really cool and I guess as a pop girl band it was like maybe not that cool but he didn't care. Well that's exactly what he said and I think there might have been a bit of judgment directed his way

as an artist who came up in grime doing a guest spot on a Little Mix track. The hook is I'm not going to sing it. I've got to do it now. Five, six, seven. You're the man, but I've got the power. Oh, jeez. And then there's the iconic pic where it's like motorbike, motorbike, motorbike, bike, bike, bike, bike. Yeah. Who's decided that's iconic?

I just think sometimes it's the most random bits, isn't it, that people latch on to. You know, you do this huge anthem about female empowerment and everyone's like motorbike, motorbike. It's always the way, isn't it? Fair play to Stormzy as well, because then his lyrics are about basically how you have got the power and you wear the trousers. I love it. When the boys talk loose, talk power, not a thing.

You know what I mean? That was my impression of Stormzy. That was uncanny. It was like he was here. He's got such a distinctive voice. Amazing voice. Phenomenal. So, yeah, hats off to Stormzy. He's been very, very lovely to me. When I brought out Angel in my dreams,

he like DM'd me this really long message, just saying how much he loved it and respected what I was trying to do and all that stuff. So that was very lovely. Yeah. So that lands us back in the present because, so after 10 or 11 years of incredible success with Little Mix, you then, did you break up or go on hiatus? It's like a hiatus. I wouldn't say it's a breakup because we're still really close and

like we definitely want to do a reunion at some point. So yeah, I'd say hiatus as much as everyone goes, oh, when you say that word, we do mean it. Right. Yeah. But it's often used as a euphemism for a breakup. Exactly. A trial separation in that case. But you're still friends from what I can tell, the three of you that were in Little Mix. And so you came up with this single earlier this year, which everyone loves, basically. Angel of My Dreams, I think surprised a lot of people.

I think nobody thought that I would come out swinging with something quite ballsy maybe. I've been writing since we decided to have Hiatus, which is like a year before it happened, so like three years in the making really. But I wrote Angel of My Dreams last year, and I was really struggling, a lot of writers block, I couldn't think of anything else to sing about because I'd ticked everything I could possibly think of off. And then the

morning that I wrote that song, the head of my label at the time left so I was having a mini meltdown because as you may or may not know when you're assigned to like a major label when the head leaves or if the person that's champions you leaves that could be like very detrimental. If someone new comes in and they're not really asked about it. I get it, it's like you're a champion. It's a bit like if you're in TV, if the channel controller goes and they're like, will the next person be a fan or not? Exactly. So I was freaking out about that. And then I went in the studio, I was in a foul mood. And then I was just mourning about the industry. And then that was the birth

of Manage In My Dreams. It's a kind of mashup of styles. Yes. And feels, as I said, I think I said, experimental. And I think people enjoyed that about it, right? I don't think you can get away with being basic in that space anymore. Do you know what I mean? I think people just want to be... We're in this era now where people get bored so easily. So you really have to do everything you can to like grasp people's attention and like hold on to it. I think coming from Little Mix as well, that was such a formula for me

of what kind of song that like we should write for that. So with my own music, I was definitely craving something that sounded nothing like that. And I think with the End of My Dreams, I wanted it to literally sound like a Frankensteined, all these parts of my younger self that I'd grown up listening to. So the start of End of My Dreams is a reference to Motownown Diana Ross. That's something that I loved listening to growing up. So I think you can hear that kind of Moortown ballad vibe at the beginning. Then you sort of catapult it into like Scooter, Cascada, Clubland, Land with the heavy tss.

What was the phrase you just used? Scooter? Scooter. Cascada. Help me out here. I'm feeling very old suddenly. Yeah, they're two like dance clubland artists. Scooter Braun? No, that's the manager.

Scooter, he's just one name actually. I think he's German. Yeah. It was like sort of hardcore like Euro dance. Right. So I grew up listening to a lot of that like as a teenager. So that's where that comes into the chaos of Angel My Dreams. And then I love musicals too. So I feel like it has sort of three acts to that song. So yeah, I wanted it to feel like my

sort of mini like Bohemian Rhapsody musical, Rocky Horror Picture Show, chaotic pop song. Yeah. The themes are about your love-hate relationship with the music industry. Yes. How much do you want to say about that? I'll say whatever. Because you sort of personify aspects of what's taken to be, I suppose, the part of it that feels most manufactured, having come up from winning X Factor with Little Mix and then being a girl band. It's always assumed with boy bands and girl bands

that they're not in control of their destiny. I don't know if that's the case or not, that there's a manager who's put them together and that behind the scenes someone is styling and guiding them. So there's one narrative which would put you as a kind of victim of the industry machine, aspects of which are implied by the song as well, Angel in My Dreams. But then there's also a sense of which, obviously there's more to it than that, right? You have more power than that might suggest. I think both things are true, to be honest, because especially on X Factor, it was very much like you put on what you're taught to put on, you sing what you're taught to sing.

It is quite a manipulated show. And I was only 18 at the time, so I was very young, very naive. And I mean, thankfully, because half the time I didn't really know what was going on, and I'm glad for it. I mean, in terms of style, we looked like a shit show, but we just didn't want to piss anyone off on the show because we just desperately wanted to get to the end. I'm not sure if you looked like a shit show. It was that era of like you know like that Nicki Minaj and like Katy Perry where everything was super bright and colourful so we'd walk in the styling room and it'd be like okay you're in like a fuchsia pink legging today and a bow tie and a whatever and then you're dyeing your hair red and you know when they do the make up as an X Factor you really don't

get a choice in that. I think on X Factor you are very much like you are more of a product or a pawn in the game show than like a human. But that being said I kind of did love the experience. They're making TV first and the music is a byproduct. Yeah. Right. I would say so. I don't think that's a judgment. No, not at all. And I knew that anyways, I'd already auditioned twice before. And for me, A levels for my media studies exam, it was based on the X Factor.

So I literally like studied it before I did it again the third time. Well, because you mentioned you tried it when you were 18. But in fact, you tried first three years earlier when you were 15. Yes. And then again, when you were 17. Before you said something, you said half the time you didn't know what was going on and you're grateful for it. Yeah. What do you mean by that? I think just in terms of like.

The manipulation of like public perception and stuff like I didn't understand at the time that if you said something to certain members of staff, it would end up in the press the next day or things like that. I definitely wasn't that privy to. Right. Do you have an inkling that that might be the case? As it went on, yes. Or if you were the first contestant to do this song at the start of the show, you knew you were probably going home because if there's 12 of that people about to perform after you, everyone's going to forget about you by the end. Do you know what I mean? Stuff like that.

And we knew as a girl band, we would have a tougher job getting people to like us. Girl bands never did well on the show. Why do you think that is? I think as women, obviously, you're taught to sort of compete with each other anyways, so I think if girls feel threatened by you or intimidated, that's one part of it. It's hard to show personality in a band from the off, which is why X-Files was really good, I guess, for us, because we were just like four young girls having a lot of fun and messing around and really wanted to genuinely change our lives.

I think that endeared the public. There was nothing sexy about us on the show because we were kids. So I think that was the difference for us that year. It's like mamas were rooting for us and little girls. Do you know what I mean? We weren't alienating or we weren't intimidating anyone. So I think that swayed it that year. Did, there's a BBC podcast called Offstage. Have you heard of it?

No. It's a five or six part podcast about X factor. Sort of exploring the extent to which it was manipulative. Cause obviously there's a, there's been a little bit of a backlash, I would say. Would you say? Against reality TV in general and people are I don't know how real it is or how much it's driven by media everything gets sort of revised and

re-examined and I think part of it is people few years on processing the experience of having been on X Factor but anyway one of the people on there the contestants describes being put in a hotel and they say, well, you would share a room with other contestants within the early stages and she was put in a room with you. And you would have been 15 at the time. And she said she was 22 or 23. What was her name? Do you remember? Was it Chrissy? Might have been. Describes your mum dropping you off and she had to go back to South Shields and feeling protective of you and thinking, wow, this 15-year-old,

she's just sort of quite vulnerable here. Very vulnerable, yeah. Where would it have been, in London? Yeah, I mean, I visited London with my mum. I think my mum got a hotel next door, actually, because she was beside herself at the thought of me just sort of being there on my own. Because it is a pretty savage experience especially boot camp it's a week of like hardcore rounds of

auditions it's absolutely brutal I remember I think I know who you're talking about because I think they were like that's another thing if you like flavor of the month whatever with the camera crew they'll like come in the room and they'll make a big deal of you and I remember being sat there and they didn't want to do any interviews with me. And I thought, oh, that means I'm not saying it through to the end of the week, stuff like that. Yeah. But that was the, maybe that was the second time actually. But the third time they called me and asked me to audition.

Did they? Yes. But you were saying it's quite brutal. Is that what you were just saying? Yeah. Yeah. In what way? Well, just, you know, the comments are savage. You know, each week is you really put through the mail. You were saying about the room sharing stuff. Like when we got through to the live shows, all of the women had to share the same room. So

we got put in this house and all of the female contestants, no matter what age. And obviously I didn't know who these people were or what their mental health, you know, background checks were or anything. A lot of chaos went on in that X Factor house. I'm sure that could have been a TV show in itself. What kind of chaos? Who took my milk kind of thing? Oh yeah. I mean, someone's eating my yogurt. There was a lot of that. Me and Perry, especially, we'd never like left home before. So then all of a sudden it was like he has a bit of money to go and do a shop. So I'd come back

with like a Cadbury's chocolate mousse and be like that's my dinner for the week. Because I didn't, I'd never cooked properly or, you know, learned to look after myself properly. There was one guy who was like from the military he staged an intervention because Frankie Cacosa stole my lasagna that was a fiasco. Seriously Frankie Cacosa stole your lasagna? He stole my lasagna out the fridge and there was murders about it but on you know a more sort of deeper level it was like everyone was struggling mentally it was the dawn of Twitter so it was the beginning of like trolling and all that stuff so So we were having to adjust to that. The hours were crazy. But I feel really conflicted, bad-mouthed because

it also changed my life for the better. You know, I got put through the mill on that show, but ultimately it meant that I moved out of my hometown, I could support my family. Not everyone's as lucky as that, I suppose, when you come off the shore. You said they invited you back to audition for the third time. They wanted a girl band, yeah. And I wasn't so sure about it because I didn't think I was like sexy enough to be in like a pussycat dolls-esque girl band, which is what I guess my mind immediately went to. So I was very relieved when I got put with

the other girls because we were all on the same page of just being completely ourselves. Mason. When you're on the show, do you see much of Simon and Louis and the other judges? Haley. I didn't see Simon on the show. He wasn't a judge that year. But even throughout our whole career, he was like, you know, like Charlie's Angels. I didn't see much of him. It was maybe once every couple of years or something we'd go around his house and he'd ask how things were going or, you know, he'd give the final nod of approval on things. But I think we had more creative control of our music than maybe other artists staying on the label.

Right. When you win, do you have to sign to Psycho, the label? Well, legally no, but I didn't know that. So we got put in a room. It was like, this is your management. This is your schedule when you win. This is your label contract. And I just signed it. Maybe you didn't feel you're in the rush of success. You weren't asking a lot of questions. I didn't have a clue. I mean, and I remember my friend Joe telling me Joe McKelgy, we're from the same hometown. He'd won it like two years before and he said to me, make sure your mom is with you when you're checking any contracts or signing anything. But you don't want to be that uncool person in front of all these

business heads being like, can I ask my mom if I can? Killing the vibe. Yeah, killing like the pop vibe, do you know what I mean? So, And it's like, oh, she's being ungrateful. Exactly. You don't want to piss anyone off, oh, she's being ungrateful. Exactly. You don't want to piss anyone off. Wow, she's a diva already. Yeah. You don't want to look ungrateful and that you do desperately, you know, you want

that chance. So you do it. Obviously we have to reflect the fact that... You know where I'm going to go? The lyric on the song, Angel of My Dreams, care that I'm mad, care that I'm sad, it's so bad, it's funny, care if I cry, care if I die, you only care about money, selling my soul to a psycho. They say I'm so lucky, psycho happens to be the name of Simon Cowell's company. Coincidentally, yes. Is that what we're going to say about that?

I mean, it's written on the tin, isn't it really? What would we say was the goods and the bads of that relationship? Of cycle. The goods were that the immediate team were phenomenal. Our A&R were brilliant. Everyone that worked closely with us were genuinely amazing at their job. So I would never discredit that.

We obviously blew up because we had a team around us that were very passionate about that happening. And, you know, especially at the start of that journey, there was still a lot of budgets and a lot of money in labels. So we were very lucky to get the treatment that we did. And then I'd say the bad stuff is just the sort of politics of it all. Like you have to do this song or you can't have this. So if you go with that creative choice of that song you won't get x y and z. There

was a lot of like political... What did it feel like? That favours were being done? Yeah, like whether there's relationships with producers or you know things like that where we weren't really in the know or... Other agendas in the room. Yeah, I think so. And just the sheer, like, ferocity of being thrust into the industry with not a lot of guidance, I would say. And I think we all suffered somewhat because of that. There's so many people that came out of the ex-fighter, that I know anyways had some sort of mental health issue off the back of it, but yeah, it's a lot for anyone

to comprehend, nevermind like young women. So yeah, I'd say that was one of the other bad parts. We should talk about that because I made a, I was the executive producer on a series that just went out called Boy Bands Forever. I watched it. Did you? Yeah. Did that, so it's basically, it's a three-part series May Day, I was the executive producer on a series that just went out called Boy Bands Forever. I watched it. Did you?

Yeah. Did that? So it's basically, it's a three-part series that looks at the heyday of British and Irish boy bands, starting with Take That in East 17 and kind of going up to Blue and Five and a few others, and then the reunion of Take That and some of the other groups. And the takeaway is these are men who are now around 50 years old, still going through the process of figuring out what happened. But if you ask me to identify what exactly the nub of what they were dealing with was, it would

be hard to put it into just a couple of words. I mean, it's overwork, over exposure, being alienated from your friends and family who don't really get what you're going through. No. Tabloid attention and your every move being chronicled in the press or being sold to the press, being followed around, breakups, indiscretions, betrayals, all ending up in the paper. Yeah. To be fair, I watched that and I did think, I thought I had it bad and then some of their stories I was like wow but yeah I guess it was more tabloid heavy then when We First started it was it was still

tabloid heavy but then yeah it was the rise of like social media at the same time so it was like getting slapped on both sides and just as young women it was still like perhaps we're allowed to try and picture under your skirt when you got out the taxi or... You said that a paparazzo actually did that to you? Oh, yeah, quite often, yeah. More than once? Yeah. But they can't print those. That's just something to actually just almost like a trophy for

himself. I don't know yet. I mean, as an 18 year old, that was very quite scary scary or like you'd get in the taxi and then they would just open the door and take pictures like so from the off it was like this invasive yeah feeling around you. Yeah a lot to take in I would say and then you know the idea of people suddenly like selling stories on you or the press wanted to know everything about you or twisting your words and interviews. We did a little bit of media training, but I don't think anything can prepare you for like how to say the right thing all the time or when not to say something and all that stuff. But at the same time, we did love it. We were so excited. It was so new to us. We were all like, Oh my God, we've made it now. And, you know, you're doing HMV signings in your hometown

and all your family and friends are there. So that's why I think it's really hard to discuss because it's such a complicated feeling of being so grateful to be there. But like you say about the boy band stuff, you can't really say to your mate who works in Tesco, I'm having a really bad time at work. say about the boy band stuff, you can't really say to your mate who works in Tesco, having a really bad time at work. How can you moan about a dream like that? And hence the lyric, I will always want you and need you. Well, anyway, I love you and

hate you. It's not fair. It's so bittersweet. Obviously you're wrapping your arms around not just the negative, but also the positive. The video is kind of amazing. Thank you. Who directed it? That was Aub Perry. Shout out Aub Perry. Yeah, phenomenal. Like one of the best directors I've ever worked with. There's an enormous man with huge fists, a huge chin, who's like a figure through the video, who represents, what does he represent?

He represents just the music industry to me. He's this big comic book villain, which is something me and Orb discussed in great detail, especially for my first song. I needed the video to tell the story and so we met up a bunch of times to really go into depth of how that story will be told. And yeah, I think this M character in the video is meant to be yeah this this thing this entity that I'm in a relationship that I can't live without yeah you actually knew Liam Payne a bit didn't you? Yes growing up yeah because he was on X Factor yeah that first time you first time you were, when you were 15. I met him when I was 15, yeah. We both auditioned and because we were under 16 or under 18, we had to have Chaperone,

so our parents were with us on the first time. And so we became really close because only a few like youngins. And then we went back to audition again together. So I knew him quite well at that time, but you know, as the years go on, and they obviously blew up, we sort of fell out of touch a bit, but always supported each other from afar, I would say. Right. Yeah.

What was the year when One Direction were put together then? Was that 2010? It was 2010, yeah, because we were 2011. The secondction were put together then? Was that 2010? Was that the second time you were there? Yeah. So you sort of saw that happen. In fact, there's a clip on YouTube of Harry running up. Have you seen that? Really deep dives haven't you?

Tried to. And Harry runs up and it's like surprise and then you look fairly blase about it. And the comments are like, love how Jade gives him the side eye or something. Not side eye, but basically how you seemingly unimpressed you are. I didn't know he was going to be the Harry Styles, did I? I think we went on like one date when again, we were like 16 or something. Yeah. And I, you know, this is, you just got put in the band. And yeah, it was really funny because we kept in touch.

You and Harry? Yeah, and then the minute they went on live shows, he didn't message me back, and I thought, that's it now, he's gone. He's made it. And then I made it the next day. And then I saw him in the room after, and he was like, I'm really sorry that I ignored you.

He ghosted you. Yes. But again, I was so young, it didn't really matter. But he was always very, very lovely. Really? Yeah. So much pain. Harry's a friend of the podcast, so he could well be listening to this. Oh, really? Yeah.

I mean, he's got himself to where he is because he's very talented and he's very lovely, very charming. And in fact, he's a model for how you can leave a boy band and then just take your artistry to a whole new dimension. But not to... So with Liam, could you see... I don't want to... How do we talk? I don't think it's really fair to speculate on what happened and it's all still new and kind of and still painful. But I guess the question would be do you think it's fair in any way to attribute any of what happened to the fact that he was in a band and that he went through all of that, that's become the narrative. Right. I mean, I'm sure there's many factors. I don't think I can talk on it in depth because I don't think it's my place to, because I didn't really know him over the last few years. But I,

like I say, I think everyone that enters the industry at a young age is going to go through it in some way. And it can be really lonely when you're that huge because, you know, none of those boys could just go out and do whatever they wanted, you know, being stuck in hotel rooms and having nothing to do. And so I think it all makes sense that being in a boy band can contribute to being in a dark place for sure. Yeah. I mean, were there times when you found it lonely? Yes, 100%.

Yeah, and always when we were probably at our biggest as well, like when we'd have our biggest career moments is probably when I would feel like the worst. So I do understand in that respect. How would you explain that? I just think there's so much pressure. I think like the bigger you get the more your sort of condition that you have to latch onto that or you have to keep that up because if you come anywhere below that you're then flopping, which is so stupid to think of because it's like, okay, if the next song is not a number one hit, you flopped. And I think that was not so much now, but especially like 10 years ago that was the mentality of like the industry or like public perception. So I think when

you've got that pressure on you, you know, for us as women, you're like becoming a woman in the public eye and you're trying to maintain relationships outside of that. You'll work to the bone. I definitely had moments where I did have very severe depression or anxiety. There was one era where I was really in quite a dark place and my mom had to come on the road with me on tour because I think she was really concerned

of what would happen if she wasn't there. Really? Yeah. And I used to have anorexia as a teenager. So I think now and again, that would come back into it if I was really stressed or whatever. As a sort of coping strategy. I think so, yeah. So like during the whole, I call it the glory days era, ironically, because that's what the album was called, but that literally was our glory days. It was the peak of our career where like Shout Out to my ex came out and that was humongous

and internationally, like, things were popping off. But I look back at pictures of myself now at that time and I look very unwell, I think. And I would suffer from, like, night terrors. But you know, like, when you're little and you have horrible nightmares, but as an adult, I started getting them and that really freaked me out mentally. So I definitely had my moments. To what extent does having the other girls in the band with you, does that help or is it difficult to talk about? Or does some of it,

are there also politics within the group that mean it's difficult to share stuff? Yeah, it just, it depends, because I think all of us went through waves of having certain moments and all you can do is in a very unqualified way, try and support each other because you don't really have the foundations there around you to like help you with that. So, you know, we tried our best I think, but just naturally as well. Yeah politically It's not always happy days is it and during that period especially and to be honest now I'm old I'm like it's through nobody else's fault. Really. I was just feeling that way but you kind of isolate yourself don't you when you're super depressed or you project outwards and other people so and I don't hold any sort of

Grudge or animosity for anyone around me at that time. But maybe at the time you didn't feel that supported you were incapable or unable to seek support in a way? Yeah I think not necessarily just from the girls I think just everyone around me I think when I was feeling really worryingly down, I didn't know who I could call and that's why I ended up ringing me mum. But I didn't want to scare me mum so I just sort of said, oh I'm struggling a little bit. But again at the same time I was on stage in front of thousands of people. I was travelling

the world which I love to do. And I think even that makes you feel an enormous amount of guilt. And I, oh my God, like I'm doing what I love. But then I get home and I feel really lonely. You know, we won a Brit award that year. I went back to the hotel room and I was just sat on me own with a cup of tea. Like, all right, how was that then? Do you know what I mean?

a cup of tea, like, all right, how was that then? Do you know what I mean? So it's quite an isolating experience if you don't have the right tools around you to help you with that. Winning the Brit Award was a big deal. Yes. What did you win it for? That year we won best single for Shout Out To My Ex. Was that the one where you gave the speech basically giving credit to the girl bands that had gone before?

That was the best group award that we won only a few years ago actually and that was the first time a girl band had ever won best group in like 43 years. And everyone was thrilled and the speech you basically shouted out, Spice Girls, Sugar Babes, All Saints. Yeah, all the pop girlies. And Liam Gallagher said, should we do this? If you want, I was not know. Little mix with the greatest respect. I love how when someone's going to be rude to you

they start by saying with the greatest respect. I love how when someone's going to be rude to you they start by saying with the greatest respect. Yeah, not being funny but... Yeah exactly, not exactly. And not in the same league as Oasis. Was he up for the same award? No, I don't think so. Not even in the same fucking sport, he said. Well we're very different bands so I'll give him that, to that respect. He's not wrong, we're a very, you know, we're a pop girl band. I don't know why he was comparing

us actually. Maybe for the clicks. I think so I think he loves a little confrontation doesn't he that one. Yeah that's part of his brand. I seen him at Glastonbury that year actually me boyfriend and Jordan my boyfriend was like I'm gonna go over and say something I was like all right and give it a go. He went over I was like you are really rude about my girlfriend do you want to? He went, fuck off. And I thought, do you know what, fair play. So wait, and Jordan was like, oh, all right then. When you put it like that.

I just thought it was really funny. You can't really argue with that. And I also kind of love that I've ended up with some sort of tiff with one of the Gallagher's. I feel like it's the same as getting the hate tweet from Azalea Banks. Is that what she specialises inher's. I feel like it's the same as getting the hate tweet from Azalea Banks. Is that what she specialises in? Yeah, I feel like you've made it when Azalea Banks drags you on Twitter or when one of

the Gallagher's has sparked some sort of confrontation with you. And the third one, which you've also, have you had a hate tweet from Azalea Banks? No, not yet. She had one, I mean, look, she had one hit, right? What's the 911? Was that the track? 212. What's the 212? Cut that bit out.

911's a gargoyle song, very good one. Is it? What's the 212? And it's a great track. Yeah, I mean she's a brilliant rapper. And based on that she's been pouring scorn on anyone who comes in her vicinity, although I've got a soft spot for her

because apparently she likes dating older white men. Well, every cloud. Where were we going? Oh yeah, and the third that you know you've made it when surely is when Piers Morgan has a pop at you, which you also ticked that box. They're like the Thanos stones, we're collecting all the hateful people want it to. Yeah. Yeah. There's Thanos stones of the Louis Theroux podcast. Yeah.

Which I thought I call it the bingo card, which is when we mentioned, for some reason, Andrew Tate always gets a mention. Right. Have you got him? I haven't, but I mean, I'm not particularly. Not the biggest fan. No, I'm not fussed about that.

Well, I don't know if we're gonna hit the bingo card on this one. Woody Allen, is he a fan? I doubt it. So I mean, the thing that resonated with me was when you said you've got enormous success and that takes you to a dark place. You're thinking, wait, have you had enormous success? Answer, no. But I have had some success. You have. And there's this sense

of like, now you need to keep it going. Yeah. And actually, I feel like chasing success, it creatively can stifle you because suddenly the pressure is on and you're not loose. And the things that got you success in the first place, maybe wasn't necessarily a desire for success. It was a desire to have fun, express yourself. Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, 100%. And so I imagine like, especially when there's 100 people,

managers, labels, stylists, producers, and they're all saying like, here's what you need to do now. How do you sort of just stay focused on making sure that you're actually doing what you love and believe in? I think we would always try and have some time just to ourselves to sort of probably subconsciously remember what it felt like when we first got put together. That magic of when it was just us practising in Perry's Stepdad's pub, trying to come up with ideas of what we wanted to be as a brand and what we would represent.

Like we would go shopping together, we'd have sleepovers together because we knew it was important to build our friendships. So I think whenever we were struggling with all these outside voices and noises, we would be like, girl, should we just like schedule in a night together where we're just chilling and we're not necessarily talking about all the businessy bits or the kind of soul destroying parts of the job? Because we always knew that if we wanted longevity, we had to be friends or we had to be on the same page.

We weren't always going to agree like anyone, but we made sure that we were all the most important people in our career, not anyone else outside of that. And there was no lead singer and stuff like that as well. We always pushed for because- You shared the vocals. Shared the vocals, always equal. Even when people thought we were being insane,

we were like, no, we stick to this because we know what happens when labels or management, whatever, will push just one person. That's when the imbalance begins and the resentment or the jealousy or whatever. So we'd literally be, we'd count that ad libs. Her girl, sometimes, yeah. Or like in a video, we'd be like, she's got 10 shots

and she's only got five, so we need to make that more equal. And it sounds so silly, but I do think it kept us going for longer because we always were like, no, we're equal in this, yeah. It was you, Leanne, Perry, and Jessie. Yes. Jessie left, that was a high profile thing. How much can you say about that?

She was going through a lot of emotional highs and lows. There was a lot going on at that time. I think, to be honest, I think Covid was a bit of a catalyst for like things just generally slowing down and falling apart. I think all of us when we had to stop priorities, our perspectives changed on what everyone wanted individually. And I think... Was she pushed?

No, no, absolutely not. Nobody was pushed, that's for sure. Maybe pushed mentally just by, you know, the perils of being in the industry but... She said she needed to work on her mental health, I think. Yeah. And then she quite quickly released a solo record. Yeah. I don't know what you're doing. You're giggling, you're like, what?

No, I'm not going to jump on that. That was what the internet said. Do you know what you do? You just go on, here's my interview technique. I'm giving it away. You go on YouTube and you look at a recent video and then you look at the most recent, the most liked comments and that's what the world is thinking. And it might be wrong or right, but it's what the people are thinking. So that was one of

the comments underneath maybe her video or someone else's. I think some people are right, some people are wrong. So much went on during that period that it actually feels like a fever dream for me. It was such a stressful time. Can't remember. How convenient. No, no, I can't. No, I can remember. I just mean it was so hazy because all of us, all four of us, I think were traumatized by that whole experience. Like, I will never begrudge Jessie wanting to leave because if she needed to do that for herself, no matter what happened behind the scenes

or anything that unfolded, I'll never discredit or invalidate the struggles that she had in the group. Particularly at the beginning, she really did suffer the most in terms of trolling, the press being really mean, all of that stuff. And it really did some lasting damage and we always tried our best to support her in that. Sometimes you get it wrong, sometimes you get it right.

Like again, like I said before, we're not qualified to, especially at 18 years old, to help someone with that. You just be your friend as much as you can. And I think towards the end, yeah, I think she gradually clocked out and that's fair enough. And I feel like I can't, and I don't want to talk about it in depth because it isn't just my story to tell. I'd be speaking for people and I don't think that's right. But for myself, I will say that I'm still getting over it now quite truthfully. Yeah, just because it was really sad and it was really stressful because when it all happened, we were literally promoting a single and an album at the same time. Everyone was asking what was going on. We didn't promoting a single and an album at the same time. Everyone was asking what was going on. We didn't necessarily know exactly what was going on. We found out

very abruptly that it was happening. And again, I don't want to go into the details of it, but I think all of us probably just included, but we're all very confused and just sort of, you know, when like we had a lot of group therapy, I had a lot of personal therapy and because the contact was so abruptly cut off, it was very hard to deal with and quite traumatic. And I was non-speaks was it like? Yeah, it was. Um, I honestly, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I don't think, I think that's why I struggled with it is because we didn't all get a chance to just sit together like we've done so for so many years to just hash it out. There's no hate there from me or from any of us, I think. I think it's just all quite sad that it happened.

And then I had to grieve that happening. And I remember I was dating Jordan, it was very early days at the time. And so I was scared to like show him like what this meant for me. Because I think in his head, he was like, Oh, you know, you were banned, someone left that happens all the time. And he does not a similar thing, actually, but you know, he disbanded from Rizzle Kicks years before. He was like, baby you'll be alright this is all good. I remember we were driving to, I think we were driving up north actually to see my family and I was being really short with them like very snappy because I was

frustrated and he kept probing like what's wrong what's wrong and tellers and then honestly out of nowhere I literally like bellowed like a fucking whale or something. You know, like when you have so much grief that you feel like you've been like winded and you start like wailing. And I'd never cried like that since we grandad, I was 13, cause it was my first experience of like grief. And I think it was all the years of like,

the love and the everything we'd been through together, the good things, the bad things, you know, and enabling behaviors or being there for each other. It was just all like, I think so much of being brushed under the rug and then it just fucking exploded. And I was like, yeah, just wailed and wailed for like an hour or something. We parked up at services and he was like, do you want some peace? And I was like, yes. And then bless him. That's when I knew he was a keeper because he was like, are you all right on your own for a little bit? I mean, I couldn't actually speak because I was like screaming. And then he went out into the shops and he came back with the pasty from Greg's and I thought, that's the one. I don't know how I got to that point.

– Well, no, that's... And that was the grief of basically losing Jessie. – I think so, yeah. – Losing the friendship. – Yeah. – Wow. – Yeah. – Are you back in touch with her now? – No.

– I think a lot... There were a lot of friendships that went south in lockdown. I don't know if that relates to this. I think it does a bit. Well, you were saying that, didn't you say that she left in lockdown? I don't say that was the only or even the main contributing factor, but communication became so strained. Small misunderstandings got magnified. Do you know what was funny about it? It actually wasn't like there wasn't any big arguments or it was just simmering and I think because like you say with lockdown the communication sort of dwindled a bit so I think it was just

one thing after another it was years of stuff it was it was So I think it was just one thing after another. It was years of stuff. It was, it was all sort of, I think because everyone had a pause, nobody could patch the leaks up anymore. Do you know what I mean? Cause we weren't all together to just keep it moving. And I think it's really sad because when we first started, you know, you always think we're not going to be, we're not going to be that band where something that happens or you know, you're so adamant that you're going to,'s not gonna happen to you but that's just life isn't it? Just worth saying that on iPlayer, BBC iPlayer, there's a, her documentary's still up, Odd One Out it's called, which you appear in, which is when she's still in the band and

kind of dealing with trolling and the level of viciousness that was directed at her. It was really brutal, like really brutal for everyone but yeah she got it the worst I would say. To the point where I even had a Daily Mail account so that I could clap back at every troll on the comments yeah because I couldn't bear it because I felt like no one was helping. You know what they call that, feeding the trolls? Probably yeah. Right, but I didn't know what else to do. Troll the trolls. Probably, yeah. Right.

But I didn't know what else to do. Trolls are looking for attention. They love it, yeah. They absolutely love it. Yeah, so if you... But the press were just as bad. Do you remember The Sun used to do that thing where they'd get a picture of a seppi and they'd put like a monster next to it and liken them to some sort of horrific character from

a movie or something like that. Right. And they did that with her as well. I remember that in one interview and showed it to us. Yeah. To see what the reaction would be. Really? What did we think of

Jessie's single, Boys? Louis. We don't have to touch this. Well, um. Because it was criticized because she was accused of the quote, it's blackfishing. Yes. Which is a very, so a 2024 term, the idea was that she was a sort of role playing, a

racial identity that wasn't hers. What's your take on it? You've just, you've batted it back at me. Well, I suppose if you go by my theory of, well, look at what the comments say, and that's sort of what people think. It feels like it wasn't that well liked. KS Holdings someone to account to be accountable for themselves is fine. But taking it further than that, I don't think is fine. But taking it further than that, I don't think is fine. Mason Hickman And I think you've said in the past that you someone said, I think it was you that maybe someone reached out to her privately to express a few things about the song.

Sarah Hickman No, not about the song. Mason Hickman About the video? Sarah Hickman When we were together, yeah. Mason Hickman Right. Sarah Hickman It was that that topic was brought up. Mason Hickman With her? Sarah Hickman Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah that's all really he waited for me to fill the silence no we just relatively I don't know if that was my

awkward silence or your awkward silence I actually really enjoy an awkward silence so we could do it for a long time if that want. That was fun. I don't think we needed more than that. You know, when you did your first solo performance post Little Mix allegedly was on Jules Holland, was that right? Yes. And one of the comments was, she can't stop smiling. And it was true, like you looked very happy. Did you watch it? Yeah, I did. I watched both because there were two weren't there?

Yes. You did Angel of My Dreams and Fantasy. Fantasy, yeah. And I watched both. And you really did seem happy to be there. I was really happy to be there. Go on, what would you want to say about that? Well, it was my first proper performance of any of my own music, so that was really special. But also being on the Jules Holland show is like...

Because it's music, right? Yeah, I think it meant a lot to be asked on that show because they're quite picky, aren't they? Like you say, it's the music show, isn't it? So, you know, when the artists get to go on it and they have to, you know, Jules himself has to approve and... He played, didn't he? Yes. He played the intro to it for My Dreams. It was beautiful. when the artists get to go on it and they have to, you know, Jules himself has to approve and He played, didn't he? He played the intro to it for My Dreams. It was beautiful. It was really amazing. So that was like a pinch me moment. You know, I grew up watching his shows and especially like the Hoot and Annie performances every new year. So

it was on my bucket list to get to do it. So I was literally beaming to be there. And he was so lovely to me. We chat nearly every week now, he'll like FaceTime me or he'll give me a call. We've formed a lovely sort of friendship off the back of it so yeah it was a really special occasion for me. And just to play my own songs for the first time was like amazing you know they obviously mean a lot to me. When does your album come out? At the minute I reckon it's coming out around May. May.

I think so it was going to be a bit earlier but I think it's been pushed back. How much pressure do you feel? Not as much as you probably think. I think with my own music, I deliberately took quite a large break between little mix and my own stuff because I think I needed time to like re-evaluate what success was for me. I didn't want to go into my own stuff chasing a hit or like yeah feeling like it has to be huge all the time or has to be as big as little mix because I think I would just be setting myself up for a fall that way and so I took the time out to just be like just make music that you really love hon and then whatever happens

happens so no I don't feel an enormous amount of pressure. I'm just proud of it. And I'm hoping I can get on stage and do my own shows, however small or big they are. I don't care, I just wanna perform. We should, I know we haven't got very long. Oh no. Well, I've got as long as you like,

but I've told that you have to finish quite soon. I can go over a little bit. We normally talk a little bit about kind of growing up and stuff. I feel like South Shields is important to you and you tap in there, I think, from time to time, do you? How often? Whenever I can, really. If I get the odd weekend off, I'll go home, see all my family.

Your mum and dad are up there? Yeah. They're divorced? Yes. Was that a big deal when they split up? It was a relief to be honest. Was it? Was there quite a lot of arguing?

Yeah, I was 16 when they broke up and I think I was on holiday with a boyfriend at the time and I got back and I got back in the house and my mum was like, oh your dad's not here anymore, we've broke up. I was like, oh, right then. That was that. Really? I mean, I was like, oh, alright then. That was that. Really? I mean I'm sure this happens all the time.

If you grow up in a house where you don't really see like a loving relationship or you see parents arguing all the time, whatever, you'd rather they just weren't together and I remember my mum saying when it happened, you know, we wanted to stay together for the kids, like we wanted to make sure we stayed together till you were old enough and I was like, mum, I wish you'd just done it straight away. Yeah, it was one of them ones. And as

a grown up now, I'm like, oh, wow, because now I'm in such a loving relationship. I wish they could have had more of that. Kids need to see it too. They need to see parents that love each other. I think to have a sort of model for what healthy, a healthy relationship looks like. Ideally. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was quite cold in relationships for a long time. Yeah. to have sort of model for what healthy, healthy relationship looks like. Ideally. Yeah, I think I was quite cold in relationships for a long time. Yeah, for the back of that. But I think there was love there. I think you were going out with Harry. So you were being quite cold. No, don't. No, you did say it was one time. Did you go out with all of them? No, no, don't do that. Isn't there a gay one? No, no, no, don't you're very good.

In every boy band, they say there's one gay one. That's something that one of the guys in blue, Duncan said in every boy band I remember watching that episode. And then he goes, and for a long time, I thought it was Lee. Brilliant. That was a good line. Yeah, it was good. But I had, you know, I had a pretty had a pretty great childhood, to be honest. I was always around my Gran and Mohammed and that's where the whole Yemeni culture comes in. So

yeah, we were still a very tight-knit family. I'm still really close to my dad and my mom. Is your mom Muslim? No. Really? No, my grandad was Muslim. Grandad was Muslim but didn't raise her in the faith. No, it was kind of East is East vibes. The movie? Yeah. I've never seen it to be honest with you. It's probably very problematic now watching it back, but I guess that when it came out everyone related to it, so we'd get called the East is East family and stuff. But I think my grandad, was Muslim, but he didn't necessarily like push that onto his children. I think he just wanted them to decide for themselves. But also, it's funny, we always joke about it because obviously he's called Mohammed, but he named all his children like

Brenda, Alan, Michael, Norma. Did he? Yeah. I think he just wanted them to assimilate. fit, as much as they could. And I think they did that as well. Like me and my mam, growing up, we very rarely spoke about like racism or, you know, the culture, our heritage. It was like she'd sort of put a block on it to try and fit in to a town like South Shields because she'd obviously had a lot of struggles being a dark skinned woman in a town like that Shields because she obviously had a lot of struggles being a dark-skinned

woman in a town like that. So we never really spoke about it until the BLM movement happened and then we were kind of forced to and we've been speaking about it ever since, which is better. More engaged with it and more public facing with it. You mentioned, this is quite heavy, but we'll try. So you mentioned having anorexia, right? Which is a serious mental condition. It's got the highest death rate basically of any mental illness. Are you all right to just talk about that for a second?

Yeah, I don't mind. I mean, I made a programme once about people struggling with anorexia and what was striking was there's a lot of misconceptions about it. And what struck me anyway was that people think, oh, it's about people who look at too many fashion magazines and they aspire to look like that. Maybe that's true for some people. But what I took was actually it's not necessarily about looking a certain way. It's about control. Yeah, 100 percent.

And dealing with anxiety by by having the utmost unhealthy level of control over your intake of food basically and also exercise? 100%. Would you agree with that? What was your experience? And I suppose more because you have to talk about it carefully, but I'm curious to know what made you better as well, like in what respect you found different interventions helpful. different interventions helpful? So I think I started becoming anorexic when I was like 13 maybe

and it carried on till I was 18 and I was in and out of hospital with it. Were you at your hospital or clinic? Yeah like clinic, like as an outpatient. Right. I think the first time I went into hospital, I was scared of having to stay there and that was the kickstart into changing stuff. But yeah, nothing to do with how I looked at all, everything to do with having some sort of control

of my life. Because my mom and dad were arguing a lot. My granddad had just died and he was like my best friend. So I felt like I'd lost a part of myself when he left. I was getting bullied at school. Bullied for anything in particular? Mainly because of the colour of my skin. Really? Yeah, I went to a very white Catholic secondary school and that was a shock to the system because my primary school where my mom worked actually there was like 36 different languages, so much culture and diversity. And then I went from that into this Catholic school and I was the only person out of my primary school that went there.

So from the jump, I was like friendless and bless me mom. She put me in that school because it was like the better one. And ironically, it like, you know, was the toughest. But, um, so yeah, I think all that stuff was going on and I felt like, uh, controlling what I put in my body was like powerful because I could decide that, do you know what I mean? And I hid it for a very long time. I'd wear a lot of like baggy clothes and I didn't want people to know about it. And then, obviously got out of hand. My mum took me to hospital. And then I started recovery.

I had a friend as well who I guess I almost trauma bonded with, who had the same thing but worse. Her anorex exhale was worse to an extent and she actually did go into the hospital for it and stayed there and I think that scared me as well and I think my family had been so distracted with their dramas and issues they didn't realize what was going on with me and then when they did realize it was really heart breaking seeing the response from my dad, my mum, everyone was so devastated and I think that also kick started me into wanting to make a change because

I didn't realise it would hurt everyone that much. I think for a long time I thought if or if I just like literally shriveled away, no one would notice. So yeah, and then I think the main thing that made me better was auditioning for X Factor because I knew I couldn't do it if I was still poorly. I went and asked the doctor if I was allowed to go and audition because I'd made a lot of progress. I'd had the whole intervention where they'd sat me down, they'd be like, if you keep doing this, you're gonna die and blah, blah, blah. And at that point, to be honest,

I wasn't really that bothered. But then when I was gonna audition for the show again, I think I just thought, and my brother said this, well, he was like, this could really change your life if it works out for the better and you deserve that. And so I asked if I could do it. And they were like, if you can promise us you'll keep us up to date with your diet and all that stuff, then you can do it. And so I did. And then I got better. I think I didn't even realise at the time, but when we spoke earlier about that period where I was really depressed, I was anorexic again, but I didn't even realise that I was,

to be honest. I just sort of fell into it. So it's actually weird for me now because I feel so far removed from that person. And now when I see any negative comments, like the last two, I mean, the girls did up until now, the majority of the negative comments, like the last two I mean the girls did are up until now. The majority of the negative comments I receive are about me putting weight on, which I find really strange because I'm like the healthiest I've ever been. This is quite ironic. It just lived with me forever. I think that's again, that's why I find the comments really bizarre. My fans know that history so bless them, they always leap to my defence and everyone like says I'm fat or like there was a wedding that I went to it was this year, I can't remember, where everyone thought I was pregnant because I was bloated and like obviously stuff like that is very triggering for someone that's

you know had a history of anorexia. So I really have to battle that sometimes with people's comments. I did go to like a, I guess a sort of rehab facility a few years ago for people with eating disorders and to speak to them. Yeah. And that was really amazing actually, because I think it might help me if I'd seen other people struggling, like a group of people and knowing how to get through that together or relating to someone and all that stuff. I think you can go both ways. Well, yeah, like I say, you can draw my bond for sure. Or even become competitive. Yeah, that's definitely, that can be a part of it as well. But it was really, it was nice to sit with

the majority girls there, show them that it doesn't always have to be like that, or you can come out with the other end of that, you know what I mean? Help them see that there's a future where we can be healthier. Just now, maybe I misheard you, it sounded like you said you were told that if you carried on you would die and you said you wouldn't have been that bothered. Not at the time, no. I just think I was obviously, I was in that head space where I wasn't first either way I think. Because you didn't believe that that would happen or it just felt like life had lost

its importance for you? I think I was such an anxious person, like even just going into school with like filming with fear and not even necessarily because of, you know, by that point I wasn't being bullied as much or whatever. I was probably even becoming popular because I'd already auditioned for like X Factor before. So I was like the girl that could sing.

But I think I just didn't want to feel like that anymore. And I was happy sort of wasting away, which is very unhealthy mindset to have. And I think it did become, well, obviously I wasn't eating well, so I was very irritable. I was snappy, I was moody. So everything was like a defense mechanism at that point. And I don't think it's until you're really confronted with that or you have this sort of intervention that you realize that the damage that you're doing to yourself and other people.

Right, because you're not thinking clearly. No. Because you're calorie starved. Yes. And so literally your mind isn't working right. Yeah, as a teenager as well, you know, hormones. Your hormones, you've got a lot going on. Yeah, periods and it stopped and all that stuff, so yeah.

We're gonna coast out of this on something more positive. Yes, yeah. What's it gonna be? When's your next single coming out? Do you know when it's coming out? When's my next single coming out? Well, I've got a song coming out on the 10th of January. I just like drop my music because sometimes there's quite a big gap between singles and

I don't like that. Will you do a video for it? Yeah there is a video. Or just a visualiser? Well it's a visualiser but I don't like- That's a term I learned last week. Yes but I think everything I do is quite extra. I don't like doing anything that's not got the kitchen sink thrown in so the visualiser is pretty much a music video. So that's not got the kitchen sink thrown in. So the visualizer is pretty

much a music video. So that's coming out. We're going to see how that goes. But my official next single is out in February. My boyfriend always tells me that this is my bonus round now, which I think is a lovely way of putting it. He's like, dude, you've clocked it already. You did a little mix. Like I clocked the pop game. That's a good way of putting it. So now it's just bonus level, just doing what I want and having fun with it. So that is literally how I treat my music. I write about things that I want to write about.

I don't care if it works for radio or not, or all those industry things. I just do what I love. And that's enough. Okay, here I am back. Did you enjoy that? I did. What a nice person. And what a helpful and revealing insight into

the way the pop industry works. Thank you, Jade, for all of that. So I was aware we spoke unguardedly or maybe just candidly about reality shows, X Factor in particular. It's worth saying several other contestants have spoken out about struggling with their mental health and contracts that they regarded as exploitative over the years. In response, a spokesperson for the X Factor said in 2021, duty of care to our contestants is of the utmost importance to us. We take welfare very seriously and have measures in place to ensure that they are supported. I also know Simon Cowell a little bit. I don't think it's awkward. I think Simon Cowell is the kind of person who takes a grown-up view of the way TV is made

and is open about the fact that there's good and bad associated with being in the music industry and in being part of a reality show like The X Factor. He said to me, in fact, when I interviewed him for my series, Boy Bands Forever, I think there was a litany of things that could happen. Maybe I presented them or some of the other people were talking about them, some of the boys that had been in the boy bands, and he said, if you don't want that, be an accountant. Which is another perspective, right? We, I mean, there's some truth in that as well. Uh, worth saying as well that Jessie Nelson has responded to criticism of the alleged blackfishing in her video for Boys, her solo single, saying, My intention is never to offend people of colour with this video in my song.

I'm very aware that I'm a white British woman. I've never said that I wasn't. It's interesting to think about any kind of fishing that I might have done. Do you know I have done a kind of fishing? This isn't a set of like, yeah, fly fishing. No. I think I've This isn't a set of like, yeah, fly fishing. No, I think I've possibly vegetarian fished. I think I've given the illusion of being a vegetarian on social media. And in fact, I admire vegetarians. I would like to be one, but I'm not one. Guilty as charged. If you fished, intentionally or unintentionally, please email me and let me know what kind of fishing you've been doing. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources.

Visit spotify.com slash resources. And if you're listening to the podcast as opposed to watching it, you can watch some clips of the episodes over on my YouTube channel at official Louis Theroux, as well as much else besides. I'm taking over YouTube. I think I almost have a thousand subs. That's not a joke. So smash that like button. I'm kind of fishing now. I'm YouTuber fishing or baiting. I think that might be it. Oh yes, credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira.

This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.