The Louis Theroux Podcast - S4 EP3: Jamie Oliver on public feuds, chopping his finger off on live TV, and his controversial jerk rice

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

In this episode, Louis is joined by celebrity chef and best–selling cookbook author, Jamie Oliver. Jamie tells Louis about his public feuds with Gordon Ramsey and Anthony Bourdain, chopping part of his finger off on live TV, and why his jerk rice caused such a stir. Plus, Louis provides some recipe tips…     Warnings: Strong language, as well as discussion around food production that may upset some listeners. Visit spotify.com/resources for information and resources.      Links/Attachments:   TV Show: ‘The Naked Chef’ (1999) – BBC  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-CeoHHDYw8    TV Show: ‘Louis Theroux’s Weird Weekends’ (1998) – BBC (UK only)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b006w7gn/louis-therouxs-weird-weekends    Jamie’s Italian https://italian.jamieoliver-rg.com/    Book: Simply Jamie, Jamie Oliver (2024)  https://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/books/simply-jamie    TV Show: ‘Jamie’s Kitchen’ (2002) – Channel 4  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0358844/    TV Show: ‘Jamie’s School Dinners’ (2005) – Channel 4  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG66rKiNkw4    ‘Lads, Gak and Union Jacks: The Oral History of ‘Cool Britannia’’ - Vice  https://www.vice.com/en/article/lads-gak-and-union-jacks-the-oral-history-of-cool-britannia/     Song: ‘Jiggle Jiggle’, Louis Theroux and Duke & Jones (2022)  https://open.spotify.com/artist/016Rz5DsXUPPxosNTZLYcv    TV Show: ‘Only Fools and Horses’ (1981 - 2003) – BBC (not available to watch)  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006xthd    Harvey’s, London (1987 – 1993)  https://www.thegoodfoodguide.co.uk/editorial/GFG-archives/1988-to-1993-marco-pierre-white-at-harveys--six-years-that-inspired-a-new-generation-of-chefs#    Book: White Heat, Marco Pierre White (1990)  https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/products/white-heat-25-book-marco-pierre-white-9781845339906?price=27.00    Book: Kitchen Confidential, Anthony Bourdain (2000)  https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/products/kitchen-confidential-book-anthony-bourdain-9781408845042?sku=NGR9781408845042&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAj9m7BhD1ARIsANsIIvBU0sOfPH6enBc2Qpztul1QXcMLLn8uut7WbtMgryXA3UkvNOMH3gEaAmMtEALw_wcB    ‘Jamie Oliver’s Empire Collapses as 22 UK Restaurants Close’ – The Guardian  https://www.theguardian.com/food/2019/may/21/jamie-oliver-jobs-administrators-restaurants-jamies-italian    Book: The Naked Chef, Jamie Oliver (1999)  https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/products/naked-chef-book-jamie-oliver-9780718143602?sku=GOR001223048&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAj9m7BhD1ARIsANsIIvD4Smq_BjCdfmuhtcCExQXMOuf2ipLA-EDglvrr5ithxbO71JFNRJkaAuKPEALw_wcB    Bite Back 2030  https://www.biteback2030.com/    ‘I Was a Cookbook Ghostwriter’ – The New York Times  https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/dining/i-was-a-cookbook-ghostwriter.html#:~:text=Julia%20Turshen%2C%20who%20is%20writing,a%20culinary%20romp%20through%20Spain.    Podcast: ‘Young Again with Kirsty Young’ - BBC Sounds  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rgtq    TV Show: ‘Jamie: Fast and Simple’ (2024) – Channel 4  https://www.channel4.com/programmes/jamie-fast-and-simple    Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producers: Maan al-Yasiri and Emilia Gill Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb   Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Three, two, one. and best-selling cookbook author Jamie Oliver. Jamie's been a mainstay of our screens for over 20 years since he shot to fame in 1999 following the success of his first TV show, The Naked Chef. I well remember it because I had just shot to a lower stratosphere of success and fame with my own TV show, Weird Weekends, the previous year, 1998. And I remember thinking, wow, he's way more successful and famous than I am. And I was ever so slightly, if I'm honest, what's the word? Jealous? Tiny bit? Yeah, a bit bruised. I sort of, maybe I haven't put that quite right, but it was just definitely a sense of like,

oh, wow, that's what success with a TV show really looks like. You know, he's a titan of, obviously not just TV presenting, but his business is a massive. And I always sort of wondered what it was that he had, like his ability not just to obviously cook and to communicate on screen, but also in a seemingly effortless way, build an empire, an international globe bestriding restaurant, cookbook, live show empire.

At its peak, Jamie had 42 Jamie's Italian restaurants in the UK. From his 28 cookbooks, he's sold over 50 million copies. He's the second best-selling British author behind JK Rowling and the best-selling British non-fiction author since records began. That's in italics. Along with the fame and the success have been moments of controversy. I mean, from the beginning, there were haters. We talk about that in the chat. There was also his healthy eating campaigning against, among other things, turkey twizzlers that caused, you know, some ructions. There was a public feud with fellow TV titan Gordon Ramsay, another one with Marco Pierre White. We talk about that. Accusations of cultural appropriation,

the famous jerk rice debacle. Again, all of that's gone into. We recorded the conversation at Spotify HQ in September 2024. Jamie arrived, having just been on This Morning, the TV show with a chocolate and cherry frangipani tart in tow. Just to say the peg for the chat was Jamie's new book called Simply Jamie, a collection of recipes using common supermarket ingredients. A warning, there is strong language in this episode. Is it from me? I don't remember. Anyway, apologies if it was. As well as some discussion around food that might offend some

listeners. There's some fairly upsetting or graphic descriptions of food production practices. Anyway, all of that's coming up, but first this. I was just saying to your team, I haven't been Louied before after all these years, so this will be the first. But we've crossed paths a few times over the years. And friends in common, I believe. And our careers, such as they are, I mean, have kind of followed, not this, like, have followed similar, not trajectory, I wouldn't

dare, but similar period of time. Yes. I was going to say, like, since seeing you on TV in 99, I thought, oh, wow, this guy's a breath of fresh air, he's different, he's hip, he's young, and you were blowing up, and those tiny little feelings of like, because everyone was talking about you, and I couldn't help noticing, wow, he's a much bigger hit than I am or was. Did you really think that? Of course, I'm human. And I remember Mark Thompson, who was running BBC Two before Jane

Root, then went on to run the whole of BBC, then went to run the New York Times, now run CNN. He's a big man with like instincts for what will work. He said to me once, he said, this would have been like 20 years ago, 25 maybe, he said that Jamie, you know, Jamie, he's like a savant. He might have said idiot savant. But let's say it was savant. But I think the point being like he's like a savant about television. In other words, like, he's not trained in TV. He's obviously not conventionally educated in academic subjects to a high level, but he's got some genius, some instinctive, unerring genius for what will work on television. I think he was in the context of either Jamie's Kitchen or School Dininners, the idea of like a format or a concept and the way that will drive really exciting TV. Does that resonate with you?

Yeah it really does. I mean I think I was a bit of a surprise, but I guess looking back retrospectively it was also about timing and where Britain was right then and I think like historically people doing my job had been very well versed and travelled and had a few age years on them and also normally wore chef whites and was normally in a studio. So the naked chef was gnarly and pretty representative of being a young whippersnapper at that time but it was really about getting, looking back I think there was like a massive push of women going to work

and the expectations of the modern woman and the sort of light to not light chauvinism of the average man going, what's for dinner, darling? The naked chef comes along and it was sort of like, well, if he's cooking, then so can you. So it was very much about getting men in the kitchen. Get men in the kitchen. I think we should acknowledge Cool Britannia and the sort of the phenomenon of the bloke

who kind of is acquainted with the other side. He's not afraid to be sensitive but also have fun, enjoy the football and then cook up a nice meal for his friends. And also, unknowingly I was sort of dealing with a baggage of a very crap time at school, being a dyslexic kid that came away with a bar two GCSEs, nothing. So I think... GCSEs in geology... A C in geology and an A in art, and then everything else was pretty much ungraded. Yeah.

But I think, although cooking really saved me, because at the weekend and summer holidays, I had a usefulness and I felt it was a world that I could contribute to. But you were talking about communication. Yeah, I think that I just saw, I think when you're frightened of black and white and words, which I was, to a degree still am, as in frightened like they're my nemesis, if you're not particularly good at that, so reading and writing was a struggle, then really you have to rely on problem solving and finding other ways of communicating, whether it's talking or cooking or song or music, poetry, memory, rhyme, you know, what, what I mean, ultimately at the end of the day, as long as people get clearly what you're trying to say, and maybe can resonate with

it emotionally, that's where the genius lies. So immediately I saw cameras and lenses and the choice of lenses and the depth of field of a lens, you know, like contributing to telling the story of have a go at cooking. And not the technicians were genius behind them, but they're made more genius by the person cooking, telling them this bit's coming up, maybe go slow motion, like there's light behind it. So yeah, we'll change the shutter angle and like we'll just get the little glimmers of like water. Like I just got geeky about it just became like a third arm really of trying to express food. And then of course, you have that massive surge of success and fame, about two years. And then of course out of

nowhere a proper kick up the backside because your success is quite annoying. Is that what it felt like? Yeah, definitely. I mean I know I was annoying because I was 24, 25 years old. I said pucker because it was like saying, slay queen, you know, it's like, you know, I mean I'm not down, I mean you know, you've knocked out a track and done very well. It's not our natural... You're talking about Jiggle Jiggle? Yeah, which is done very, very well and my kids love, by the way, as do I. But one minute I was like posh private school kid, the next minute I was estuary, mock cockney.

The word they used for me was faux-naïf, which I get it, that's fine. For you it was mockney. Yeah. But I think I grew up in a pub. You said pucker, what were the other ones? Bish bash posh, lovely chubly. I like just bash it, get amongst it, like you know, it's just, I think it was just the rhetoric of my age at that time. And of course we all have things that we did and it was very much del boy trotter, only fours and horses. Did it feel, I don't want to be, I'm not trying to give you a hard time about this, but it was part of the narrative. You can give me a hard time about anything.

Okay, fine. Did it feel like, you were just, you were sort of, did it feel authentically you? Were you dialing it up a bit, just having fun with it? It was definitely authentically me for the camera, but if I can get into what was authentically me, I think it was also as someone that grew up in a pub, I always, I was like a chameleon. Like, you know, if someone talked a little bit like that,

I'd talk a little bit like that. And then if I went and spoke to the queen, like all of a sudden, my words would become a little bit rounder. And like, if I go to Australia, like kind of the ends of the sentences, just kind of finish a little bit like that. And I still do it now.

If I'm in an Aussie for two weeks, everything's kind of like that. It's like, that's exaggerated. So is that because you're fake, or is that because ultimately, as a communicator, you're always trying to resonate on a level? Of course. And my job, as I know yours does,

I can literally be in the most expensive, extraordinary expression of food on the planet, like anything imaginable, any price. Like, I could be doing that as a job, or I could be in the ghetto for weeks with gang bangers and criminals and murderers and guns and rough. So, like, of course I don't talk to those people the same as I would if

I'm kind of going, oh my God, this caviar from Sturgeon that you've massaged out that's sustainable, you know, like it's like, so I think, I've always been a bit like that, but I think you grow up as well. And also like, I hate the sound of my own voice. So like, after all these years. Oh, for God's sake. But listen, I wanna talk about, so then you were saying after two years, then it felt like two or three years,

when you were still doing Naked Chef. Yeah, I realised it was a three year cycle. Right. So you get a whooping. In three years they give you a key. I don't know if you get it, but I get a three year cycle, even to this day. I mean, I'd love to talk to you peer to peer,

and I think professionally professionally I'm very happy with where I'm at but obviously you achieved a level of exposure both domestically and internationally that was outstripped by a long, long way. Anything that I have, I've had in small ways, I've had kickings. I think one of the advantages of not being tabloid fodder, which I have only been fleetingly, is that you, well obviously you don't get kicked in that way because they're not that interested and you're not in people's face. Yeah, also you're a journalist so in some respects you're one of them. Because I'm a journalist I haven't done adverts, so that rules out a whole level of criticism.

Yeah, you could become a target. You look at David Attenborough, sort of the benchmark for what distinguished celebrity looks like and clearly part of that is he's never done adverts, he never stays outside of his lane, he's never done any kind of licensing, merchandising, all the boxes you've ticked which have made you more of a target, you know, he's a fool. Yeah. Does that make sense? Completely. I mean, that's part of it. No, I think you become, certain things you do, you become fodder.

Is it true you got physically attacked? Or were you speaking metaphorically? You said when the Naked Chef came out, people were coming and whacking you. No, I got, so, because men are hilarious. Because it was about getting men back in the kitchen, and there was me representing that that and all over the press, the first year and a half of The Naked Chef was quite tough for me, I got a lot of verbal

abuse from men, you know all sorts, imagine going past a building. Can I swear on this? You fucking wanker arsehole, you fucking up little shit cunt. You know it's like you might be... Fucking up little shit cunt. Yeah, you might want to bleep that one. But, erm... Or if...

But, erm, no, it's... Because why? Because their girlfriends or wives were going, excuse me, we're both doing like a ten-hour day, we're both knackered, like, why don't you get your ass in the kitchen? Like this bloke on the telly. Like this little thing that's running around with a pair of lips. Plus he's a tasty...

And yet he's quite cute, actually, yeah. I don't know about the last bit, but, erm, so that was quite a pair of lips. Plus he's a testy. He's quite cute actually, yeah. I don't know about the last bit, but so that was quite a lot of grief and then I did get chased once actually just coming out of Covent Garden tube station and I ran about 300 metres and he got me in a corner. He pinned me up against the wall and I thought fuck it, he's going to punch me now. You said Gordon, what the hell are you doing? He goes, thanks to you I have to cook three times a week. And I thought, oh shit. And I was going to say, like, and how is it?

Like, what's the seasoning like? And his face went from pure aggression. He was built like a prick shithouse as well. And then he relaxed and goes, and actually, I'm really good at it. I'm actually better than you. And then walked off. I went, ooh.

And, you know, that's obviously. I went, ooh. And, you know, that's obviously an extreme case, but there was definitely a moment, and blessed because us men are simple creatures, I think there was a moment of like cooking was for girls. And it took a year and a half for men of Britain to understand that cooking could get you girls. And I think that was the switch point. And when fellas started to realise that in their sort of chat up arsenal, it can be like, look, do you want to go to cinema? Do you want to go and grab a pizza?

Do you want to come around mine? I could make some homemade pizza, pasta and like, you know, rattle out a little dinner. Like, would you fancy? Once they realized they could get a little bit more beef jerky if they just followed a couple of recipes and, you know know be a bit more romantic. It's and I could see that representing from walking down a street with less abuse to all right mate how's it going you're a nice one. It got it did turn after a year and a half and

then if I was doing live I used to do a lot of live shows back in the day and they'd be like 2,000 people and they'd all be women at the start and within three years it was 50-50. Was it? And actually to a degree now it skews men. Yeah, we're about 60% skewing men on a lot of our audiences now. So we should talk about one of the things that happened when you came to fame was you got to meet some of your idols or they expressed a view of you, which

I think was a mixed blessing, wasn't it? And specifically, and in fact over the years, I think probably it's a testament to your success that some high profile people have had a pop at you. Marco Pierre White, do you remember what he said? He doesn't like me at all, still doesn't. What's that all about? I don't know, I have no shared history with him, like working under him, so he doesn't like me at all, still doesn't. What's that all about? I don't know, I have no shared history with him, like working under him, so he doesn't have a sense of control. I mean, I could easily start saying, look, we don't get on like...

More importantly, he was really important for the industry. When I was a very young chef, the industry was quite dark and boring, and it was very sort of felt like from a different era and he came along and he was incredible and his sort of energy and attitude was like so cool so he looked amazing he was a he was from Leeds i think he had an incredible like gaunt he looked like a rock star yeah and i think like he was the youngest two-star michelin chef in the world like they're at harvey's in wandsworth wasn? Yeah, he smashed it and he was my hero for sure. You would have known of his cooking over there in Clavering, you would have followed it? I bought White Heat, the book, I studied every page,

every word. Really? You never crossed paths with him? Many times. The reason he had so much to say about me, because we went on a shoot one day, spent a day with him and it was perfectly lovely. And then like a week later, he just destroyed me on a double page spread. I was really pleased to meet him, but he just destroyed me. And then you sort of think, well, that was sort of a bit like low. But one of the things that you have to, not so much now because I'm a bit further down the line in years, but you meet people you love and often they're like, they clearly think you're a wanker. So that's fine. I don't need anything from him. I still think he was like

a game changer. I still, he was still my hero for that period of my life, but that's life. And it's not just Marco. It's lots of people has happened to it. So it's like and it's not just Marco, lots of people it's happened with. I was going to say, because I don't, let's just, it's worth, I mean I think Anthony Bourdain had a pop and then sort of retracted it actually. Yeah he did retract it. I mean Anthony was a tough one for me because the first book that I ever nearly read, so like from a dyslexic point of view, like it's not that I can read of course, like if you give me a recipe I can read it, it's like I'm on that. Words, you know, they're tracking them and just concentration is tricky, but to commit to a narrative book and be part of that story and be submerged into it, I've never had.

It's not an emotion that I do through audiobooks, but like I got three quarters of the way through Kitchen Confidential and it was because it was sort of in my mind. It's a legendary memoir which I've not read but must be incredible because it seems to have been inspirational to so many people. Yeah, yeah, like listen, A, he's like cool, like he's really expressive. He was a recovering or maybe at the time an active heroin addict I think when he was talking about life in the kitchens of New York's top restaurants. What was it, the brutality of it? Just the usual stuff. The rock and roll energy. Drug, sex, rock and roll, just like the energy, sort of the lattice. Living close to the edge, making amazing food. Yeah, I mean, he was brilliant. I loved it. I love Kitchen Confidential.

Literally got just over halfway through, I was in. I was going to read my first book at the age of 27. And I'm not exaggerating, I was on my honeymoon. And as I put the book down on the Amalfi Coast with my new wife, double page spread just absolutely brutally destroyed me. And I'm like, it's happened again, fucking hell. I never finished the book because it was just like,

how can I? It was just like, shit. But also can I? Like it was just like shit. But also he was cool and I really loved his work. And, you know, actually, I kind of felt that a lot of the TV that you made felt like some of the energy that you had in your work. And I just loved it. It was sort of under the skin of things. And it was about culture.

And I loved him to bits, but I knew he thought I was a wanker. So that's a tricky. That's quite hard to swallow. So you just sort of have to almost forget it and then every year he came back to promote his book it was like easy to get a page if he just started on me again so I'm quite that I see myself getting used in that like pattern and then beautifully I don't know why I did this but I think I agreed for the Observer Food Monthly or something like that I agreed to have a journalist with me for a weekend in Miami for the food festival. It's like oh what's Jamie doing in America? So have a journalist next to you for bloody 72 hours, really clever idea.

And day one we go in there and we're walking behind the scenes and this is all these marquees on the beach and like loads of chefs from around America and I'm the only Brit there sort of representing doing demos and getting everyone going and 150 meters ahead of me Bourdain's walking up I'm like fuck it's gonna kick off like it's gonna end up in a scrap this is gonna be a nightmare got fucking journalists next to me and luckily for me he'd well two things happened first of all we got married and had a kid so I think that that changes people. He had his wife next to him, so that was helpful. And then as he got to like 20 metres, he started making, and as he got to 10 metres, he just went into

this speech about getting it wrong and that he apologised profusely for everything that he'd done. And basically what happened is, and this is an absolute fact, is very alpha in the industry and it's very about craft and training and your credibility scores are around sort of Michelin stars or some sort of metric of busyness or kind of kitchen life. And they hated me because I was a TV chef. But what happens is, from a technical point of view, our point of view, like the Naked Chef series won

six half hour programmes. Season two and three, eight half hour programmes. That's all I ever did, right? Smashed it, global, like 30 countries, like buzzing. By this time, Bourdain was doing like 80 shows a year. So he hated me and then became me. And this is what happens time and time again. It's like that, you know, you always hate what's on the other side and they all say, I'll never do TV. They all do, by the way. They all do. They all change. But to have that apology was epic for me. It was

so epic and it meant such a lot. And also I was still semi sort of like in my 30s then. But also I had a journalist right next to me and for the first time in my life having a journalist next to you and like and as we walked we got hugged like the wife looked relieved and said see you at the bar tonight and we had a good night on the Razz. And as we walked off I just looked at the bar tonight and we had a good night on the Razz and as we walked off I just looked at the journal and said, might as well go home now, you might as well go. But look, that's just part of the tapestry of you could say celebrity world or being in the public eye or being a broadcaster. I think success at the level that you've had. But also being a man and alpha.

Well should we quickly deal with Gordon Ramsay then speaking of yeah this was not on my radar until I did the research you're obviously the two big dogs of British TV cooking right like that goes without saying and and then there's interesting overlaps and then interesting differences he's enjoyed a lot of success a higher degree of success in America I would would say. Would you agree with that? Definitely. Yeah. He's a global brand. So there's a strange, I mean, I was comparing a bit to, this will be out of date now, but Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury, like you're twinned in some way.

I mean, obviously there's more to it than that, but just because of the nature of you both being at the very apogee of that kind of stardom. Anyway, not withstanding all of that. It's part of a TV show that he was presenting, I think. He had a go at you and used body shaming terms. He called you a fat fuck. That's where I've arrived. There was a lot going on at the time. I don't know where it all started. I mean, I was always a big admirer of his. And actually, when I started writing for the Times, I starved in his kitchen and I really admired him. He was doing great things at Royal Hospital Road. He was sort of the prodigy of Marco and was killing it. And we got on very well in the beginning and then as we got into kind of the TV careers, I think probably, because I've seen it happen in different, like if you're doing lots of interviews to promote things

and someone's, whether for better or for worse, the journalist might just be trying to wind you up and say, what about Jamie Oliver doing that? If he's got that every day, what about Jamie Oliver? So I think like he just bit and then... But he did it on a TV show. I'm not trying to... No, no, no. He did have a TV show where he... It was almost like a written bit, you know what I mean? Yeah, it was. Where he had a picture of you and said he's going to solve the junk food crisis by eating

all the junk food. That was the joke. It's quite funny. But yeah, I was a target... It was probably 10 years, I think. It was regular. And I generally used to bite once a year and then that used to set him off for another year and I didn't have anything against him but I think it it kind of generated the noise it was serving its purpose for him I mean I'd have to ask Gordon what what it was all about because we never fell out we got on for the first couple of years and then as he did more TV then I just it just went on and on and on and it was quite it was painful but in the end

actually it was Jules and his wife Tanya that sorted it out because they yeah because they got growing kids like you know he's got a gorgeous wife and kids they're amazing and you like you've we've seen them all grow up and our kids have probably got so much in common. And they all talk on social and stuff anyway. And it was like, come on dads, grow up. So I think that both of us got a telling off. And then we had a, we went to have a drink and put it all to rest and let bygones be

bygones. But I think also, when I lost all my restaurants, he was very supportive, he was very kind, he sort of sent me messages and we are currently friends and, you know, we all kind of get into ruts and trouble and say things we shouldn't do. And I think the energy of the drink that me and Gordon had was like, look, it was just silly, like, let's put it behind us, let's crack on. And I think that I'd much prefer that place. And I think the energy of the drink that me and Gordon had was like, look, it was just silly. Like, let's put it behind us. Let's crack on. And I think that I'd much prefer that place. And I think also like just getting a bit older and wiser.

I guess I'm experienced now. I've sort of seen it, smelled it, felt it. Hopefully I can make better decisions going forward based on learnings for better and for worse. I've had my fair share of good and bad times, you know, I think I'm probably 50-50, used to be 70-30, but I'm probably about 50-50 on sort of like, you know, fails versus successes. You mean your ratio is improving? Is that what you're saying? Your ratio of success

is... No, it's about 50, it's got worse. It's got worse, really? Yeah. I also do want to celebrate what you've achieved. I really believe in the mission. I love to cook. I love to cook to eat, like not to show off, not to have a hobby, not to fill the time. I cook because I like to eat. I do actually enjoy it. I can enjoy the alchemy of ingredients changing their characteristics with the application of heat and other ingredients.

And that, you know, and sometimes you're like, where's this going? This isn't what's supposed to happen. Then you hold your nerve and it comes out and surprise, surprise, it's vaguely edible. Maybe even quite nice. Listeners who want to check out some of my food on Instagram, I don't post all that much but every now and then... I've liked a few of them. You've liked a few. And in fact, in lockdown, I was doing one of your recipes and I was talking about how I'd had an accident. Often when I'm stressed or there's a lot of things kicking off like it makes me tense, I mean I'm a human and I think there was an argument taking place in the home and it was in

the midst of the lockdown my wife Nancy was saying like what are you doing Louis and I was there chopping it was it was a carrot and courgette or maybe carrot and coriander pancake recipe. Fritter probably. Fritter yeah and there I was and I chopped the tip of my finger off and it was agony. It was more painful than you know you could have a deep cut somewhere you don't feel anything. No the fingertips are rough because all your nerve endings are there. And do you remember what you said? What did I say? What you said was, you should get into circumcision mate, no. What you said was, I had, you talked about an incident where you'd been on a Japanese TV show or doing a live show, what was it? Yeah I did, I was famous in Japan for three years, pretty much on the dot. I was big, I was really big, like a boy band. And then they run out of content and then that was it.

What were you doing to make yourself famous? Books and TV. Had they bought The Naked Chef? that was it. What were you doing to make yourself famous? Books and TV. They loved it, they were mad for it and their TV was interesting because I was doing basically like live TV like this morning and I was using the wrong knife for the wrong job and I was rattling through, I never cut myself using knives. I'm as good now as I am when I was 12 with a knife, like I just, I know what it's doing. And if you know what you're doing with a knife, you don't cut yourself. But I was on this live show

and I took the end of my finger off and I'm like, right, that's mega pain, but we're live. How much, how much of the finger? I don't know, like three millimetres. Yeah. Mine was, yeah, it was a tiny disc. It's the end. The pain was completely disproportionate. Mine went in the food as well, by the way. I said nothing. And I'm like, right, that pain is like 75, 80 percent. That's like mega. So I just like smoothly because I was a bit of a pro by then got a tea towel and

wrapped it around my finger because it was claret pouring out of it. And and I could fill it filling up and and I carry on the piece to camera teaching how to do it. They're translating, I've got a translator in my ear and I'm rattling through this dish with a bit of my finger in it and then I kind of like I was doing matsutake mushrooms with like pappardelle and parmesan and lemon thyme plated it up and they're like putting it into the plates and they're like eating it with chopsticks. Oh, she, oh, she, you know, it's like, and, um, and then they're like, thank you very much. Nice one. That's Jamie Oliver. Da da da. And then through to advertising break. And then, um, I screamed because it was fucking painful. Um, but in Japan,

they don't go to advertising breaks like ours. They go to a live advert in the same studio, four meters away. And there meters away and there's a young lady doing like Daz automatic and it's like ah and that shh shh but yeah look that's I know that pain is a horrible pain. I was using a Japanese knife as well I think that was the other connection it was a Japanese knife so it got me by surprise. I'm also quite used to working with fairly blunt knives I'm used to see there's a little bit of give it can bounce off if you're using a crappy knife Yeah, you're not in play, but this one way bit right in yeah, I could look at the way

I'll have a little lesson A lot, but I don't still I still I'm very much too short to not be on point with knife skills You can do much stuff much better, much quicker, and not cut yourself if you get the fundamentals right. And there's really good fundamentals, and there's only really three knives that you need. But I've been using one of those string choppers, right? I think you're gonna totally disapprove of this.

But you know the ones I mean where there's a rotating blade? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my point is I've maybe taught myself to be helpless in the kitchen by relying on... No, no, because you're using a tool instead of taking your fingers off. Is that alright? No, no, it's really good. I think you use whatever...

But now I chop like a moron. But I think it doesn't matter what tools you use to get to the end goal and whether it's cooking or anything else. And I think very much like your work, like it's... When I started Naked Chef 25 years ago the average time spent cooking dinner was 46 minutes. I think the average cook time now is less than 20 minutes. The basket data from the best sources is saying that we've never cooked less than now and also if you translate that data it also says that the NHS has got no hope in hell and it just means a lot of kind of fairly dark

prognosis for health. So you could say, well, have you failed? And I could say, well, potentially, but also would it have been worse if I hadn't done 25 years of all the relentless stories, campaigns and bits and pieces. But I think like we've got technology now, we've got the ability to the uberisation of food and delivery services and how convenient but also expensive and often not very healthy, technology now, we've got the ability to the uberization of food and delivery services and how convenient but also expensive and often not very healthy, more than often. So I think for me, like, yeah, is there room for another book? Well, yeah, because the targets different like the target for the Naked Chef Book One is that would be bliss.

It would be bliss, you know, like, you know, even when we're doing our 2030 project, which is to half childhood obesity by 2030, that's only to go back to the health statistics of the millennia, 2000. You know, so simply Jamie is basically using all my tricks, everything I've learned, and also hopefully you feel like it's very visual, like you'll turn a page and it'll be like 10 things to do with a chicken breast, bosh, like exciting things of little rubs and sprinkles that you can now get in a regular corner shop or supermarket, like 10 things to do with a chicken breast, bosh, like exciting things of little rubs and sprinkles that you can now get in a regular corner shop or supermarket, like 10 things to do with a salmon fillet, you know, like here, this is how you make salads taste good, right, here's how to get more of your fired fruit and veg a day into your diet. So like,

it's not just the idea, it's not just the recipe, it's also how it's designed on the page. And I just, I hope, and I feel like a maybe, but hopefully when you flick through the book, you're like, okay, that's useful. Oh, that's useful. So I'm kind of grovelling. I'm desperately trying to get people still cooking. And I truly believe that if people cook, the world is a happier, healthier place. Uh, I think the cooking, the books are the heart of your business. Would that, would that be right?

I guess they've become that because... So it's like monetarily, if I can put it in crests? And if you sell some. So you make, you know, I make about £1.20 a book. Do you? And Naked Chef first one sold, what's the first one called? Naked Chef was called Jamie's Kitchen. What was the first one? Naked Chef. Naked Chef. Just called the Naked Chef. What it sold? What a couple of million? Yeah, at least maybe four. Yeah, I mean, it's... You can't all do that. It was, no, no no no but I mean obviously it's been out the longest so it's had reprints but I mean I can't remember exactly how many it sold but

you know we've we've sold 50.4 million books but also that ain't easy. A successful book is 10,000 like a really good go is 40,000 like you know that is so like I still genuinely I sweat for every page, font, paper. I've worked every department of publishing. I've lived in the publishers for the first four years. I've gone to factories where they print it. Your books look superb. They're very attractive. The photography is immaculate, the food styling. It's everything to me. That was a compliment, queuing you to the fact that now I'm going to ask a slightly more pointed question which is there's also been reports that there's

an open secret in the industry at large about the ghost writing of the recipes. It feels reasonable that like a songwriter... I've never done that. Have you never done that? Never. Really? No I mean so for instance part of my process is I've physically never written or typed a word I, so for instance, part of my process is I've physically never written or typed a word. So because it's tricky for me to, because of my relationship with words. So the first three cookbooks I wrote I did on Dictaphone. Each chapter would have a cassette and probably most young people listening to this don't know what a Dictaphone is. You speak into a little tape. It's a recording cassette recorder. But now, you know, as soon as I'd earned a couple of quid, I employed an editor who I, so when I write,

I talk and they type what I talk. And that's why there's no spelling mistakes in the books because I didn't write it. But no, I mean, I'm over, I'm over, I don't apologize for that. I think like my relationship between design, step-by-steps, fighting for white space so the words don't scare you with its complicated... I mean who would have thought that I would have

been the author that I am today, which is, I mean, which is basically the, I guess, the most prolific cookery author on the planet, which is like, I mean... One of the highest-selling authors in the world, I'm told. I don't say that to show off, I say that because I'm in shock. Do you know what I'm talking about? There's a story in the New York Times saying, do you remember a few years ago, Nigella Lawson's recipes had been ghosted, or someone had said, oh I've just made a bit of money, I've sold the recipe to Nigella. I can't, I mean, I only know Nigella as a great writer, so I can't see why she would want to because it's her talent. But I think it's very common.

You remember that report, you remember that news story? It was a small one. Not on her, but on general chefs, you'd be amazed how many chefs don't write their books. It's really embarrassing. And also, it's like, don't come to me, like in the early days. What if I, because I've got a couple of recipes and if I came to you said I'm not gonna write a cook But but I think you'd be good with this Jamie and you know if you want to tweak it fine You wouldn't be interested and I would be really interested to see what you do. I've genuinely There's no hierarchy of who I'll be inspired by it could be a five-year-old kid. It could be a granny It could be you it could be a magazine. It be inspired by. It could be a five-year-old kid, it could be a granny, it could be you, it could be a magazine, it could be nostalgia, it could be a memory, it could be something that fell on my head,

it could be something that's in season. You know, I do your bolognese, but do you know what I do? This is ridiculous. I chop up some chorizo and fry it first, because sometimes they call for bacon or pancetta. Yes. But chorizo's... Very good. It's very clever that you did that. It's paprika. Do you think so?

Yeah, I mean, it's not authentic. And so it adds a lot of depth. Yeah. So you get umami, you get spice, you get salinity, you get salt, and you also get smoke. Yeah. So what you've done is actually very clever because you're giving your bolognese a kick up the jacksy. Now I did that. I put pancetta in the base of a paella, the jacksy. Now I did that, I put panchetta in the base of a paella which went viral in Spain and I had death threats for putting... Not literal death threats. Well I think they are when it's written on Twitter and it says you know if you do this we'll you know it went... Holy smoke.

No no I mean I wasn't frightened about a load of like chorizo-wielding Spaniards to come and like batter me to death with one. Right. But I mean it was, it went on for bloody months. What's quite nice about being slagged off sometimes is it creates this environment where people have opinions and actually it sort of settles itself out. So even though I said it wasn't this kind of specific paella, which didn't have sausage, it was seafood, actually the history of paella was, or paella, was didn't have sausage, it was seafood. Actually the history of paella was anything that moved one in. So from snails to literally squirrels to meat, fish. If you

look in the history, and in the history of paella you would have sausage of some form, shape or form, undoubtedly chorizo would be in there. But everyone's always arguing. You just reignited the beef. No, no, it's not beef. The truth is that people are, when communities cook, they're passionate about the specifics of specific dishes in specific areas. And of course, there's lots of areas. I don't know if you've ever seen Italians talking about food. They're all arguing. Whether they're right or wrong, it doesn't matter, because everyone's so passionate.

And I'm just a little foreigner from the outside, right? So, but no, I didn't actually, so technically why did I put chorizo in the paella? It's because British people can't season very well. Like we don't think about it. Like, okay, the dish is done, right? Taste it, you know, does it need salt, pepper, squeeze of lemon juice, bit of chili, bit of herb?

Like how do you, you always have to balance. Like the last minute before you serve it is always the most important. So by putting chorizo in the base, you smashed it, like because basically you're guaranteeing a good bang for your buck. So compliments to you. I appreciate it. But I won't be doing it as an Italian ragu. We'll just call it...

What would you call it? I just think we should... Call it Louis banging Bolognese. Louis ragout. Sure, we should probably, we should touch on the jerk rice situation. Yeah. It was like, God bless Britain, the UK, one story like Jamie Oliver's made jerk rice and it was like, no, jerk rice isn't a thing. It literally doesn't exist. Like people were lampooning you as though it was like, no jerk rice isn't a thing, it literally doesn't exist.

Like people were lampooning you as though it was this crass misunderstanding of the cuisine and the culture. Which it was, yeah. The thing is, I think one of my ex-students who was from an Afro-Caribbean background sort of summed it up by saying, look, it's just a middle-class white guy trying to get more people to dig our food, like get get over it. And I think that's, that's pretty much like, I mean, my whole career and probably a vast majority of those book sales is based on like, how do you compromise with common sense to get people to try something new, have a go and tune into sort of like vibes that people love, whether it's peri-peri innandos or whether it's

kind of like, you you know making your bland boring rice have a little bit more like a kind of vibe to it but I think you know and there's always going to be a and certainly now I mean like every book I write now goes through like cultural appropriation specialists yeah I mean I mean it pains me to do it but you know ultimately for a bloody cookbook I don't want to offend anyone. And the world's changing so you've got to be sensitive and fix it. But where does that end? I don't want to be like okay I'll be the GB News person in the room. Most dishes are formed... It's madness to imagine that like well you have to use everything that's indigenous to the UK,

I assume you've got British heritage right? Yeah, there's... So then from now on you can't use any cumin or cinnamon or coriander. But most of the British Christmas is from around the world. Mold wine and jerk ham. Cooking globally is an evolution of movement, wars, stealing and good times and probably mainly bad. Yeah. And fusion and collision and intermixing, which can be beautiful and it can be horrific, but here we are, nevertheless. Yeah, fish and chips, not British.

You were Portuguese Jewish. Pie is not British. Pie is real. Cumberland sausage, not British. They're immigrant German. Pies are from the Greeks via the Romans, and fish and chips is Jewish Portuguese. Potatoes. So not even British. From the New World.

South America. Sweet corn, tobacco, onions, chilli. So get over yourself. Even Italy. Don't talk to me about red sauces when tomatoes come from South... Everything was very brown in Italy. Don't talk to me about red sauces when tomatoes come from South Africa. Everything was very brown in Italy. Will they say Marco Polo brought noodles back from China? I'm not sure if that's, I think, a rumour. Yeah, I mean, you'll definitely get death threats for that.

But they say that basically in the Middle Ages, Marco Polo, the Italian explorer, went to China and brought back noodles and thereby begat the whole world of spaghetti and pasta. I think if you wanted to sort of like give credit to the other side, you'd say, well, but we don't want like a middle... I'm not speaking about you, I'm speaking hypothetically, a kind of a middle-class white guy in the UK saying, this is Louis Theroux's authentic African or Asian cuisine. Like, you know, if I became the face of Indian cooking, we would rightly say that doesn't feel quite right. Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud. Yeah, I mean, essentially now what you end up doing is you have to say things like inspired.

So Asian inspired salad with crunchy da da da da da da da da. And it's, and sometimes you're taking key ingredients because a lot of what, like the way I write isn't as linear as you might think it is, it's quite a slightly strange spectrum process of what's the promise and what's available in an average supermarket and then through breaking down chapters that are useful, I haven't written anything yet and breaking down accessible ingredients like top 100 ingredients that everyone has in their basket every single week, clockwork. A basket in Britain only changes about 4% every year, every week, right, so we don't really change what we buy much. We're buying the same thing every week. Yeah, so I look at what's available, so things like miso or gochujang or sort of in the old days

it was balsamic vinegar and sun-dried tomatoes, like these things that are in every corner shop and, and, and, and, you know, both some of them, there's a standard things now. These can bring a bit of life to your boring bland world, you know, so I, I haven't even written a recipe yet. So I kind of look at ingredients, I look at the promise, I look at the chapters, then I look at a spread within a chapter of veggie, vegan, fish, meat, getting, and then I look at the brief of trying to get more, essentially, if you, although no one will believe me, me but the truth is if you get to the heart of what I do it's trying to upsell fruit, veg, nuts and seeds that's what genuinely what I'm trying to do so any way of getting like meat reduction in a ragu which is actually very traditional because we didn't throw meat around like

we're they'd always have pulses and and veggies in there like getting more you know Britain average Brit. Meat reduction for a second you had me confused I was thinking like reductions a culinary term you meant reducing the amount of meat in the room. In your new in the new one you've got you surprised me in the Bolognese you've got lentils in there. Does that taste alright? Yeah delicious. Mixing the meat and the lentils. If you know what you're doing and I do. Look we were talking about... We've so gone random. No, we were starting to talk about the idea of cultural appropriation. When it's Europe,

it's less complicated. Nevertheless, I'm curious to know whether Italy expressed any concerns about Jamie's Italian. No, Italy and the Italians are clever, right? A, it's a very diverse country, So like 28 city states, it was only brought together in the late 18th century through Gary Baldy and all other sort of people. Like, you know, they also know about business and you know, probably I've sold a large proportion of prosciutto, mozzarella, parmesan and olive oil for Italy.

They ain't stupid. That's why they made me. Yeah, I got knighted by the Italians last year. Did you? Yeah, I got like, what do they call it, Cavalieri. And... I wish I could say congratulations in Italian. Congratulations. I thought I might get an Italian passport as part of it.

For real? So you're viewed as an ambassador for the culture? I don't know. I didn't say that. If I said that, I'd go in the press. I'd say that. But no, I... Did you open a Jamie's Italian in Italy? No, look, I think it's a... I think the Italians are quite clever. They... I mean, it doesn't mean they won't argue,

because they will, and it doesn't mean they won't put me in my place. They still will. But there is a... I love them, and I think, generally speaking, they love me. And it's not about anything specific. It's more about a tactile love and affinity and the connect. It's like about, it's just about getting amongst it, rolling your sleeves up, having a go and the idea of loving someone through food, which many countries partake in, but the Italians I think

are quite famous for it. Italian food as a global menu is probably the number one, you know, as far as making you feel a certain lovely way. If you were to put, well maybe you just answered this, if you were to put one national cuisine, obviously they're, you know, there's so many and they're so brilliant, but above it, for you personally, personal choice, would it be Italian? I think it would be Italian. Probably.

But you know, I think Japan's a close second for me. Which, have you ever had the Japanese one where the fish is still alive when they fillet it? I have seen it, I've witnessed it and I have eaten quite a lot of living fish. While it was alive? Yeah, I mean like that's called fresh. Oh I suppose oysters. Let's take an oyster, shuck it. But not the one, is it off putting like, it's too strange to see a live fish?

Yeah, no, I think, you know, as a food lover a food lover, I'm happy to eat animals, but of course, and vegans and vegetarians wouldn't appreciate this, but some of the stuff they do is for show, so it's heart's still beating and they're serving it on itself while it's still alive. I'm not getting involved in that stuff. You've seen that. I've witnessed it and I've seen it. What was it like? It's pretty grim. If you go to Tsukiji Market in Japan,

I'd say the large majority of that fish is still alive. So in Europe when we catch fish, it's landed and it's dead before we get it. And they just sort of suffocate to death because they're not in water, right? They don't bash them with a mace or whatever it's called. Is it a priest? What's it called? Do you know what I'm talking about? A little mallet? Some fishermen have mallets for when they catch a trout or a salmon, but like in Japan, they catch them, they put them in little envelopes of running salted water with air and they keep them all alive. And in Tsukiji market, most of the fish there is alive. And then

when they kill it, they'll do it efficiently, bush through the head like straight away, and then they'll put a little wire up its spine and which will sort of stop its nerves sort of flinching and that way you have the best quality fish in the world and no doubt the Japanese are incredible at fish but yeah I mean like peeling a live prawn and putting that on a little perfectly made piece of sushi and it's still twitching I've had that you've had that yeah very delicious indeed I mean it's still twitching. I've had that. You've had that. Yeah, very delicious indeed. I mean it's cultural isn't it? I mean it's anyone that partakes in a burger or kebab has been part of the food chain in some ways.

We should talk about that in a sec. What about dog? I wouldn't eat dog if I was offered it. I've eaten whale. Do you think that's hypocritical of us, you know, I say us in the West to take a view of that? that. And we'd all eat dog if we were hungry. And I think to shock lots of people, there was, I think even your pet dog, if left in a room with you after you've died, would be having a go at you. After a couple of days it would have a nibble, wouldn't it? What about horse? I've eaten horse on multiple occasions.

This is quite common, I think. Yeah, very common. And Italy. Richard Hammer threw these. this is quite good. Caged veal. Well that doesn't happen anymore. Not in the UK but it does on the continent. It shouldn't be in Europe. Really? Yeah I mean it's an old wives tale from but yeah like there's no that's not ethical in my opinion or anyone. I didn't realize that. So no veal, actually all of us should eat veal because it's part of the dairy dairy industry I didn't eat veal because I thought it was supposed to be anyone that drinks milk

should eat veal really because 50% of dairy cows cows born are men and if it's from a dairy breed the very balls then then then they're normal now they're normally bolted through the head at birth. So we should all be eating veal if we're ethical. Well, I learned something today. Anyone that eats goat's cheese should eat goat, because it's a system and you've got carcass balance. I mean, that's brought us to one of the grimmest things to speculate on, which is the plight

of the egg-laying cocks, if I can put it that way, it sounds a little odd. They're not cocks, they're the male chicks that are born in the egg-laying chicken industry. They're generally, yeah, they're normally killed through an inert gas. Through an inert gas, argon apparently. Or eviscerated immediately. Or macerated, i.e. shredded.

Sorry, not eviscerated, macerated. Within two or three days of being hatched. No, pretty much straight away. No, they're done straight away. Done straight away. They're done straight away because they're bred so the males are a different color. So they know who the males are.

They know what they are. Yeah. But it's a strange thing to think about, isn't it? Well, it's called waste and it's a business. And there's billions, so billions of chicks, baby chicks every year. They don't get wasted. I mean, if you want to, it depends where you are.

I mean, I don't want to, I mean, I'm having an open conversation, but it's, they don't get wasted. They go into the food chain. They just go to feed animals and pets and things like that. So they don't get like buried. But like, if you eat meat, you should think really hard about it. I know. I don't, how long, how's your energy? I'm good. I'm here for you. Okay. There's a lot. There's so much to cover. One thing I wanted to talk about is you seem to be incredibly hard working, you don't seem to be, I know you are, and you also have a

young family, well some of them are still young, some are leaving the nest. I am well acquainted with the push and pull of the work-life balance. Recently you gave an interview where you actually, you surprised me by saying, I don't know if you came to kind of regret these remarks, but you sort of said, actually I'd give up all the fame, all the success. Oh yeah, with Kirsty Young. And happily, in fact I would rather have not had it, if I could just have a pub and run it, I suppose like your parents did. Yeah, people didn't respond, some people got it and some people didn't.

Well, I suppose, I mean, I do get it, I mean, the road not taken can often seem appealing, but you'd also be giving up, well, obviously a lifestyle, an enormous amount of money that you have and a business, all the people that are indebted to you for the opportunities that you've given them, the platform that you've had to try and influence debates. Yeah, so it's not one of complaining or whinging. No, no, I didn't feel like that. for the opportunities that you've given them, the platform that you've had to try and influence debates. Yeah, so it's not one of complaining or whinging. No, no, I didn't feel like that. And I've really tried hard since I...

I learned quite quickly within that first three year part of being famous, that it was quite shallow and actually no one ever talks about the currency of anonymity, walking into a room without having a first impression. So, you know, when I and actually my family walk into a room, there's a first impression. Now, if it's for better, that's not great. And if it's for worse, that's not great. You don't want a life where you get favors.

I mean, it might be nice getting a few favors, but it's not healthy to have a family where you're trying to teach values of right and wrong and kindness. Do you lose some of your social muscles because the red carpet's being rolled out? You're not seeing people's true selves necessarily. But then you do have, your way is kind of lubricated in certain respects by goodwill, right? Yeah, and then you need to find privacy and then you need a sort of like further away house

and a bit of land so you don't get looked at and spied upon and got paps pointing. But speaking of someone with less fame and success than you, but a certain degree, I feel as though there's such a lot that's good about it as well. Yeah, there is, and I need to sort of, it's no, like I'm living my life, and I don't have regrets, Like I know I'm on a pathway

and I'm trying to do the best version of me. And every night when I go to bed, it's sort of like, I just want to be useful. And like, I love the people I work with and I love what I get to do. But if you were, hello Jamie Wright, you can do it all again. You know, I'm doing an impression of some version of a God.

I wouldn't do it because to make me really, truly, truly happy, you know, I'm doing an impression of some version of a god. I wouldn't do it because to make me really truly truly happy you don't need much and I think like having more time with your family and having a family able to make first impressions because they've earned it, not because they're the son or daughter of someone that's... Well that's interesting, when you make it about the family because it's often said that other people or maybe their family is the price that famous people pay for their celebrity. I sometimes think it's tougher on my nearest and dearest than it is on me. And also, not that I have, but if you look at the data, like, you know, it doesn't bode

well. It doesn't. Like, you know, often kids of celebrities or well-known people, they go off the rails and it takes them a while to come back to sort of... And my kids have to put up with, you know, dad's a wanker or turkey twizzlers or you know, they probably could have done without that, especially in teenage years when they just want to be themselves and be normal and fit in and they've got me as their dad. So, no, I don't think fame is healthy.

It's really not. And if you are going to partake in it, then you like, it's got to be worth it. And that's, and then you can sort of predictably go down the financial route or this or the other. But I think it's not about that. It's about like trying to leave a mark and tell stories

from your point of view and empower people. But you don't think that... I'm just going to play devil's advocate for a second. So you're running a pub somewhere where in Cambridge or Essex, aged, you know, whatever, 49 with your family and do you not think you would feel like you'd missed out? Like you wouldn't feel it was a bit... I think I would feel like I've missed out, but I think passionately that simple lives, focusing on your craft, focusing on your family, not wanting or not being able to have too much, like it's, I think it's a better place than having to run and propel yourself at a thousand miles an hour. You know, it's like I've built a massive machine and it's a lot of responsibility and I'm making it worth it and it

is worth it. But like, you know, I just think just to be and to be human and to cook humble delicious food and to not worry about like an exponential amount of bonkers shit and having a rhythm year probably I would have some everyone's got worries right so yeah they're just different kind of worries. Are you still up at like five most mornings? 4.30 yeah. 4.30 what five days a week? Yeah. Sleeping at the weekends? No because I have to I sleep in yeah till seven. Till seven. Why do you get up at seven? Because I've got to take my son to rugby. And then you're in bed at what time during the week? I'll desperately try to get in by 10, but I normally get in about half 11.

So you're really getting only about five or six hours sleep? I probably get, if I'm lucky, six hours sleep a night, which is probably not ideal, but it's a lot better than it was but um Yeah, I treat sleep like work And I treat work like a hobby and I read that you used to be on like three or three and a half Yeah, that yeah What's that all about? Enthusiasm and optimism for life responsibility

enthusiasm and optimism for life, responsibility, fucking mobile phones that just relentlessly have questions from people that I answer from around the world so it never stops. But I mean I've fixed most of it. But I think the technology and the availability and my personality kind of laid me open. You know this is about ten years ago. I'm surprised Jules put up with it. So am I! Yeah, well thank God for Jules. She's amazing. But yeah, I think... Did you rely on her to put the brakes on a bit? Sometimes it's our, you know, it's our other one, our partner who's able to see clearly...

Yeah, I mean she's great. I mean she's very focused on the kids. But yeah, I mean she... So she gave you this space. She wasn't saying like I mean, she's great. I mean, she's very focused on the kids. But yeah, I mean, she was- So she gave you the space. She wasn't saying like- Yeah, she's amazing like that. This isn't good for you, Jamie, like you need to- She probably did. What's to stop you from saying, actually, do you know what?

I wanna slow down, especially why, I know your youngest is what, eight now, eight or nine? Yeah. And you know, those are good years. And this is probably your last rodeo, right? I mean, oh, yeah, as in sort of not life, but having another baby, right? Yeah. So there's a part of you that must be aware, like the years are slipping by, I think about this, you know, I've got an 18 year old, 16 year old and a nine year old. And you think, well, you have one part

of you think, well, where did the years go?? They've grown up, the boys have become men, right? Are you all boys? Yeah, all boys, three boys. So I'm not trying to put my shit on you, as they say, but I'm curious whether you... I guess the question is why don't you slow down and just say, do you know what, fuck it, I'm gonna do eight hours of work a day,

which is good enough for most people, and then I'm gonna go home and switch off and chill. Yeah I've gone through waves of a work-life balance. Generally it's in a good place. I think currently at the moment because of like the world that we live in is like everything's a bit disrupted so you one has to be on the front foot and work extra hard and be super like I'm finding the funding for my work now like programming, ad-funded programming I'm making it, producing it, presenting it and promoting it so like even my... Do you mean TV shows?

Yeah like the funding for it. Are you on channel four do you mean? Yeah I mean I think just because of where the industry is at the moment so I work with channel four and ad-funded programming. But in a sense I'm not trying, I feel like I'm trying to give you a hard time and I really... I love it, I love you and I love it. I haven't got, I don't have, I'm an open book. There's no one telling you to do that, so some part of you could slow down. It's a question, yes. So I'm 50 next year, I've probably got 15 years of good graft in me,

but probably seven exceptional ones. Like I am where I am. I have the machine I've created of team and place and I could stop, I could stop tomorrow and so that's it. I'm done and play the con, you know, do whatever wrap up, however, I've got to wrap up, but I think ultimately my life and my business is very much driven by impact, which sounds really worthy, and a lot of people will say, oh, bullshit. So what does that mean?

It means like every part of our business has to contribute to moving the dial, moving the story, like telling stories or empowering people in a certain way. And I just feel that for 25 years, I've done a good job. And if you look at the list of things that I've done and how it's changed legislation or this or that or the other in food or we've done quite a lot, but like it's the tip of the iceberg and I just think that there's a lot more that we can do

in the next seven to ten years. You see it all and you couldn't strip away and say do you know what I'll do campaigning and I'll roll, and I'll do less on the other side. Less licensing, less restaurants, fewer books and focus on the campaigning. Does that work? I mean, campaigning is paid for by commercial success. So like 5% of all our profit goes to sort of driving social change.

I wish it was 10%, but I'm and it will be if I can but like currently it's 5% of everything we earn goes towards like the campaigns team is a team that these are like talented people and they're not cheap but there's no there's no revenue flow within campaigns team it's just it's a department of a business that really doesn't exist in most companies if any or hardly any., the tail is so long and it's never ended. Like, you know, we have a big board of things that we're trying to do to move the goalposts on child health. And visibly or invisibly, every one of the bits of work that I've done has been trying to move that.

Here, here. Congrats. We could keep talking on and on. I think we're basically going to get in trouble if we do. Have you ever eaten that Italian cheese that's got maggots in it? No, and I don't think I would. Not your cup of tea? No, not really, because I think it's disgusting. I mean, I get the process, so for people listening, there's a cheese where they allow the flies to land on it and then lay eggs and then they kind of complete the cheese and in the center of this cheese the maggots only ever feed on the cheese so when you get into it you have cheese a kind of fall off from the cheese like soft bits and then this kind of milky substance that you dip bread into.

Which is sort of what the maggots have been shitting out? Eating and shitting out, yeah. And you suffocate the maggots before you eat it, I think. No, I think you just put your bread into it and whack it in your mouth. Either way. And the maggots become part of the cheese. Anyway, listen. Thank you for having me.

Full up with everything. I hope, you know. Thanks for coming by. I'm looking forward, in all sincerity, I mean I think I've made it clear I'm a fan and I'm looking forward to the new recipes. Thank you. And new series. And the new recipes. Thank you and a new series and the new series

God knows we need to help with the ratings Welcome back. It's me Louie on my own this time. Big thank you to Jamie for coming by. After all these years, I mean, as I said, I've met him, but to actually sit down and have a proper chin wag with something we'd never done before and felt we covered a lot of ground. There's a few things I should pick up on. Okay, are you ready? Marco Polo and the pasta debacle. Is it a debacle? It's more of a debate. Apparently that's been thoroughly debunked, the idea that pasta came originally via the Italian explorer Marco Polo bringing it back from China. Italians

correctly lay claim to be the inventors of pasta or pasta, however you prefer that word to be pronounced. On the question of whether Nigella Lawson ever had her recipes ghost written for her or whether the practice is common in the industry, this is a little bit of a minefield. What I had been remembering was an article from 2002 from The Mail in which an unnamed friend of a chef called Sky Gore said that at a party, Sky was wandering around with a bag absolutely stuffed full of cash. She had £2,000 and said it had been from Nigella who just paid her for 10 recipes she'd given for a new television show that she's doing. Miss Lawson, this is a quote from the article, was trying to play down the implications of

the cash for recipes revelation. She admitted she did pay for help in testing and researching recipes. She insisted the money was not directly for the recipes themselves. I pay people to research my recipes to test them out, she explained. I have a good team of helpers and together we try my recipes out. So Nigella has always denied paying for recipes. But I will say that in the New York Times, which we can link to in the show notes, there's also an article about cash for recipes more generally. Well, and the fact that many cooks get their cookbooks ghost written for them. Apparently that's an open secret in the industry. So check that out. Make up your own mind. Jamie says he'd never do that and has never done it. What else to say? Oh,

my takeaway was really that, you know, he's a force of nature and unstoppable and dedicated to this slightly in a sense contradictory or certainly not always aligned vision of doing both effective campaigning for a variety of really good causes to do with obesity and healthy eating and whatnot. And on the other hand, making a go of viable businesses and taking on the sponsorships or the contracts that make that workable. And so he's having to straddle those. And also that he that workable. And so he's having to straddle those. And also that he works

incredibly hard. That's obviously not a newsflash, but he says that really if he had it to do over, he'd just want to have a pub and just keep the family and himself out of the limelight. Nevertheless, there's no sign of slowing down. There was a kind of dissonance in how he seemed to see life, you know, because I'm thinking like, well, you can't just, you could just slow down and not work quite so hard. He didn't seem to see that really as something he wanted to do. Correct me if I'm wrong. I wish I could say now I tried some of Jamie's recipes from his new book.

I haven't done that yet. I'm intrigued by the lentil-bolognese combination. It's harder to cook at a high level with only vegetables, right? Anyone can fry a steak, right, or roast a chicken, but make a delicious nut roast and then I'll talk to you. I'm serious. Even a vegetable lasagna, it takes so long and then basically what people at there be like, that's yummy. And then what they're thinking is, I'd rather be eating a meat lasagna. I think maybe they're not. Even a ratatouille. I like a ratatouille, but you find with young children, none of them are thrilled when you bring out

a Ratatouille. I feel like I'm Donald Trump at a rally just kind of droning on and with no sign of it ever coming to a kind of intelligible endpoint. But that's the Trump era, which we're in now, and we can do that. The snowflakes can't stop us. Anymore. Thank God. Sprinkle whatever portion of irony on top of that remark as you feel suits your taste buds. And that's about it, except for the all-important credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Man Al-Yaziri, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira.

This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.