The Louis Theroux Podcast - S4 EP4: Leon Edwards on rubbing shoulders with Andrew Tate, the time Donald Trump saw him fight, and how MMA saved his life

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Louis is joined in the studio by MMA fighter and UFC welterweight champion, Leon ‘Rocky’ Edwards. Leon talks about rubbing shoulders with Andrew Tate, how MMA saved him from a life of crime and what happened when Donald Trump came to see him fight. Plus, Leon puts Louis’s physical strength to the test…       Warnings: Strong language and adult themes        Links/Attachments:     ‘MMA Fighting’s 2022 Knockout of the Year: Leon Edwards vs. Kamaru Usman’ - MMA Fighting  https://www.mmafighting.com/2022/12/25/23524649/mma-fightings-2022-knockout-of-the-year-leon-edwards-vs-kamaru-usman    UFC Welterweight Ranking  https://www.ufc.com/rankings    ‘Colby Covington: UFC fighter provokes pre-bout row by saying Leon Edwards' dead father is 'in hell'’ - Sky News  https://news.sky.com/story/colby-covington-ufc-fighter-provokes-pre-bout-row-by-saying-leon-edwards-dead-father-is-in-hell-13030863    ‘Briton Edwards loses title in Manchester UFC fight’ - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/mixed-martial-arts/articles/cevwr1gpgv9o    Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, 1212. Are you there? Hello, Louis Threw here. Welcome to my podcast called The Louis Threw Podcast. Yes, it's still called that. Today I'm speaking with British MMA fighter and UFC welterweight champion Leon Rocky Edwards. Leon was born in Kingston, Jamaica, moving to Birmingham at 9 years old. His dad had been a gang leader. He ended up getting killed when Leon was just 13 years old and in order to keep Leon out

of trouble his mum signed him up for a local gym where he began fighting. We talk about all of that. He became a professional fighter in 2011 and signed with the UFC, the ultimate fighting championship in 2014. That's the big promotion, really the only one that counts. I think you could say it's massive. In 2022, he had a career defining victory over Kamaru Usman with a dramatic fifth round knockout. It's legendary in UFC circles. And in fact, there's even memes of Joe Rogan's reaction when it happened. A look of total shock that get recycled when anything explosive happens on the internet. He claimed the UFC welterweight championship belt, becoming the second British UFC champion

ever. So he's a big deal and it was in fact my son, my middle son who put him on my radar and said, dad, you should speak to Leon. He's obviously a role model and icon to many of the nation's teenagers. At the time of recording, Leon is ranked number one in the UFC's welterweight division. Slightly off the back of my son's interest, also because I'm curious about boxing and martial arts generally, I began following UFC a few years ago. I've been to one or two bouts, one or two events when it's come to London. It travels, the promotion travels and so they do events sometimes at the O2 in London and it's quite an amazing night out. Random fact, I bumped into Michaela Cole at one of the events and it turns out

she's quite the fan. It's become massive in the last few years and it's also become identified with a certain unapologetic masculine outlook. Dana White, the guy who built UFC into the juggernaut that it is now, is very friendly with Donald Trump. Donald Trump was one of the first people to host UFC bouts at his casinos back in the day. When UFC was considered maybe disreputable, Donald Trump would host it at his casinos in Atlantic City. They've been friendly ever since, Dana and Donald, and then when Donald got elected, Donald. I'm talking like I know him. When Donald Trump got elected, then Dana White was invited to a couple of things and they spoke together. So we talk about that, Leon and I, and the sense in which it's sort of the gladiatorial games for this sort of Donald Trump imperial era that we're in.

Like if we're in this sort of moment of Caesarian politics that calls back to kind of the Roman Empire, it feels like this is the Colosseum de nos jours. I slipped into French there. This one was recorded in person in mid-November last year. Leon was fresh off a loss against Bilal Mohammed, a Palestinian fighter in Manchester that took place in the early hours of the morning due to a scheduling decision. So it would be on at a better time for the US audience. For the more observant viewers among you, you may see that we're in a different studio.

What happened was we turned out here at the Spotify studio and then about five or ten minutes into the chat, suddenly this light up here got incredibly bright, almost like an alien spaceship was landing. And we stopped and said, what's happening? Are we going into the twilight zone? And then all the power suddenly went out. And it turned out that the entire block where we are here in central London, there was some kind of power surge or power outage.

So we had to adjourn. And for a minute it was like, what do we do now? We sat around in the dark, like figures at the end of the apocalypse, trapped in the basement of the Spotify HQ, and then made a decision to reconvene at a studio conveniently found by Millilly, the producer across town. I cycled down there, Leon and his friend rode down there in a car and we started again. So that's where we join the conversation in Medias res as they say in Latin, in the middle of the thing. Warning, there is some strong language in this episode. I don't remember it, but it says that here.

Maybe a few fucks. And sorry about that. And for our viewership on Spotify, a display of semi-toxic masculinity. I'm reading this. Is there? When Leon goaded me into doing some press ups on camera. Stay tuned for that at the very end. How many do you think I did? Have a ballot. Have fun. Do you think it was five, ten, fifty? If you

guess now and time stamp your guess and then send it in and nothing will happen. All that and much, much more after this. Are we rolling? Have we got everything? Camera? Sound? Take two. How would you describe what it is? Mixed martial arts? It's basically a mixture of all martial arts, mashed into one. The most common used martial arts is like boxing, boxing, wrestling and jujitsu. When it started, it was actually, so they say like a way of, because I remember it was the early 90s, 91, 92, 93. And I was a younger man, 21, 22. And it was advertised as a way of deciding which style is better, almost like a video game. In the early days, again this is taking

me back, it seemed like there was a guy called Royce Gracie or Hoice Gracie and a guy called Ken Shamrock. Do you remember him? What was his fighting style? Ken Shamrock was more like a striker, I would say. Rest of the striker kind of thing. Because back in the day, you could wear anything you want. You could wear one gloves, you know, you can kick in the balls, you can grab people's hair, it's like a total different sport, you know. They were sort of saying, oh, it's like anything goes. The tagline was something like, there are no rules. No rules, yeah. It's like, you're a star, this is my style. I mean, Senator John McCain in America said this is human cockfighting and he said like

this is, you know, whatever, this is uncivilized and brutal and dangerous. At that time, they said there were no rules, but there were some rules, right? You couldn't eye gouge or bite. Yeah, you can't bite, eye gouge, stuff like that. But before it was like, um... And if you tap out, you have to stop. They changed that but before I was like um and if you tap out you have to stop they changed that later on yeah but I saw you could but um there's stuff for that really but I went around that time so I'm happy I went around that time. How did it how was it on your um radar like I knew nothing about it until I was 17 16 17 years old um I actually before I was looking like a like a tight boxing gym at the start and it turned out it was MMA gym and I just kind of like stuck to it like.

So you weren't watching it on TV? No, I knew nothing about it. I knew nothing about mixed martial arts until I actually started training in it and I thought what is it? So I started like Googling it and watching YouTube videos and slowly just started getting more and more, it fell in love with it. You know, I want to talk about how you came up and your backstory is extraordinary and the things that you've overcome, we'll come onto that,

but just for a minute to stay in the present, like what's really striking is the way in which UFC isn't just huge, you know, it's worth more than a billion dollars a year, it's up there with the top 10 sports in the world probably. And that's just, you know, it's worth more than a billion dollars a year. It's up there with the top 10 sports in the world probably. And that's just, you know, and the others are all things like American football, what we call football, NBA, basketball, like things that have been around for a hundred years or so. And then here's this other form of sporting entertainment that's absolutely just arisen and become huge. But also the way in which it feels like,

and I don't know if you're conscious of this, it feels like it aligns with the times that we're in. And I'm not trying to pin this on you in any way, but it's been really interesting to see how Trump has been intertwined with aspects of the sport. And Dana White, the main promoter, is a friend of Trump's. Trump's casinos initially were one of the few places that it was supported and backed.

Are you aware of that? Have you ever seen Trump at one of the events? I have. Yeah. I think he's been to one of my fights before in Vegas. I think. Who are you fighting? Who was it? Colby. Yeah. Colby Coventon. So Oliver over there. Hi Oliver. Hello. Is a friend or a manager or both? My friend. Just friend. Yeah. Is Oliver a friend or a manager? Or both? My friend. Just a friend? Yeah, yeah, yeah, just a friend. A good lad. Everyone needs a friend. Especially at this level. Millie's my friend. No, maybe not. You were fighting Colby Covington. Yeah, Colby Covington.

Tell me about him. He's a character in his own right. Yeah, he's a very pro-Trump. He's a very like pro Trump. He's a super Trump. Yeah, super Trump. Super patriot. He turned up for one of the press conferences dressed in colonial clothing. Yeah, talking about a red and blue state and I didn't know anything about this by the way. Was he the one who insulted you and your father? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that same guy.

So he really took it to an ugly place. Yeah, ugly place. I feel like trash talking is one thing. It didn't cross the line. I feel like that was like crossing the line. Do you remember what he said? Kind of, a little bit. My dad passed away and he kind of just used that to try to solidify it.

He talked about your father being in hell. In hell, yeah. He said, I'm gonna drag you down to the seventh circle of hell. Where your dad is, stuff like that. It hell. Yeah. I'm gonna drag you down to the seventh circle of hell. Where your dad is. Something like that. That is pretty low. Very low. So yeah. I was very angry after hearing it but also I had to remind myself that, well my coaches, my family reminded me that there's a job to be done you know at the at the end of it. And, um, yeah. Well, when you say that, uh, you had to remind yourself or your coach reminded you as opposed to what?

Like that anger, right? Like it's easy to like compete in anger and we come in anger that kind of. You won't compete at your best. Do you think so? Yeah, a hundred percent not. Cause you saw a ton of vision to like try to hurt this person that you're not seeing the full picture, you know? And I feel like me talking to my coaches and my mom and people like that,

kind of like calm down. That's interesting because you might, some might think that what's happening? He's got coffees here. That's right. Bring him in. I can't wait. Where anything goes. It's free form. It's a very laid back studio by the way. Oh my God. Is that very like, Oh my god. You know what Joe Rogan is like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like,

he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, I love how low your standards are. So basically you might think that anger could take you

into a fifth gear, like of intensity. No, no. I feel like if I have anger that limits your view on things, it limits what you can see come towards you as well. You know, not just you dishing it out, you got to think as well you're also taking it. So if you fight it with a ton of vision it takes it away you know. Do you think that's what he was trying to do? Yeah 100% 100% Get in your head?

Yeah. Throw you off? Yeah 100% so like I said it worked but it gave me time to sit with my thoughts and talk to people around me you know. It worked in what sense? Just like... You threw a bottle at him. I was sure.

Didn't you throw a plastic bottle? I did yeah yeah yeah. It's not that dangerous. Yeah I know I was just threw a bottle at him. Didn't you throw a plastic bottle? I did, yeah. It's not that dangerous. Yeah, I know. I was shooting a fucking glass bottle. But yeah, it's just one of the things that, like I said, it's a very low, low blow. And I've never in my career have I done that, you know. And like talking shit is what it is. It's a fight. But going to like dead parents, and it just doesn't sit well.

But we were saying, and he was, he was friendly with Trump. I think he went to the White House even. He did, yeah. And do you think, and so Trump was at that fight to support Colby Covington? Yeah. Do you think so? Yeah, he did, yeah. After I beat you, like America's into British back in the day, I'm gonna tell you about Trump the next day

and show him what I've done and where he lost. I said that. And like middle of his speech, after he lost, there's that interview in the octagon and Trump started just walked out. He didn't even like sit to like listen to what he's saying. He just left mid speech.

It was funny. What after he lost? After he lost. Do you know that? Cause someone told you or you saw him leaving? No, I saw him leaving. Yeah, as he was talking. I got interviewed first because I won and when I was leaving, so was Trump, you know, and so Kobe was actually trying to talk, but either it is. Yeah, well, whatever else you say about Trump, we know that he doesn't like losers.

Losers. Right? Exactly. So he proved it that night and here's what it is. And there's a few other fighters who are aligned with Trump as well. Are you conscious of that? I can't name them all. There's a few fighters that's like, Usman did it as well. He's kind of like Trump. Kamaru Usman, who's from Nigeria, right? Nigeria, yeah. Spent a lot of time in America.

America, yeah, in America. How'd you know he likes Trump? Cause he posts about it. Does he? Yeah. Yeah, he posts about it and, Dana White is also close to Trump. So he helps to be on the side of that, you know.

Do you have a good relationship with Dana, Dana White? Yeah, yeah. Well, as a boss and a worker, yeah. As a boss and a worker. A good relationship, enough, you know, because in the days of business, and if you win, you win, if you lose, you lose, you know. I know him enough to like, if I'm gonna like call him or something, call... You've got his number? Yeah, enough to like do stuff like that, but no, I don't hang out with him every day. Do you know him well enough to give me his number? No. That's a joke. That's a joke. You've got a with him every day. Do you know him well enough to give me his number? No. That's a joke. You've got a friendly relationship.

Yeah. Do you feel like he likes you? Um, yeah. I don't know. Hard to tell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all in things like that, yeah. It's not really that kind of a thing.

It's more of a professional. Yeah, more of a work thing than actually like a friendship kind of thing. For a while, the narrative seemed to be that because you didn't trash talk, because you were relatively mild-mannered, right? You didn't do unnecessary kind of sledging or whatever you call it. And quite soft spoken, that that might be holding you back a bit and that maybe they weren't giving you the fights. Opportunities that I should have got. Yeah.

Do you think there's anything in that? Maybe a little bit. Whereas a large amount of a large personality like Conor McGregor. Exactly, maybe a little bit. Cause around the same time as Conor was coming on the scene, so was I, you know, since it's like, everyone's kind of like edging towards that kind of

entertainment, which is like Irish talking. And I was just kept winning, winning, winning, winning, winning, winning. My thing was just like, I'll prove it in octagon and just I'm number one. And so the opportunities took longer to come to me than it would maybe like someone I kind of that talks, talks a lot.

But also now looking back on it, I feel like it was perfect timing for me. Maybe I wasn't ready to fight the number two in the world, number three in the world at that time, you know. So maybe it was like a blessing in disguise, you know. Just, we should get this out of the way. Like I was talking to Ian Wright, actually, the former Arsenal footballer. That was an unnecessary name drop. There we are. I'll make it even better. At the Man of the Year, GQ Man of the Year

awards where we both were, I can't remember if I was being honoured. I might have been. I think you were there. I probably was. No. No, I don't know. We were just talking about this and that and for some reason UFC came up and he was like, oh no. And I was like, you know, I think actually it's less dangerous in significant ways than boxing. Like in terms of the long-term outcomes regarding CTE, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, like brain injury.

Actually, I don't think it's, in other respects, I think it's less harmful in the long-term than boxing. And he was like, Louis, what are you talking about? I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he seemed shocked that I might have that opinion. And he seemed to be of the view that it was extremely dangerous and damaging. Yeah, from the outside looking in, it looks that way. And it probably is to some people, you know, but as far as like taking head damage, like

for me, for example, I want to spar like once a week, twice a week, if that. And that's only in training camp. Um, as in boxers because all we can hit is their body or their head. Um, you take a lot of trauma in training, let alone with boxing. Yeah. Because you think of sparring as being less extreme than actual fighting, but do you think they've harder? Yeah. There's brain injury. Do you think there's brain injury that results from sparring? Yeah, I think that's where you get your brain injury from, from sparring, you know, especially boxing, because when they spar, it's like a fight, you know, and they're doing this like

two, three times a week, day in, day out. And so I feel like that's the reason why as MMA, we've got wrestling, which is no head contact, we've got jiu-jitsu, no head contact. You do pad work, stuff like that, no head contact, we've got jiu-jitsu, no head contact. You do pad work, stuff like that, no head contact. Then you're on the spa. Within the sparring, you're doing everything. You're wrestling, you're jiu-jitsu, you're boxing. So there's not many headshots you're taking. In boxing, if it's a 12 round sparring, you're going at it. And it's bigger gloves as well. So you can afford to let go, everything you got, you know. So maybe that's the reason why. That's the other part,

when people think that the gloves are to protect your head, but they're not there to protect your fist. So you can actually punch harder with bigger gloves. Exactly, so boxing you can, especially with training gloves, 16, 18 ounces, you can afford to go harder in training. With MMA, if you do MMA sparring, if you wear bumper gloves, smaller gloves,

you can't go that hard, you're gonna hurt your partner. So you kind of like protect yourself a little bit like that as well. As far as you know, has any UFC fighter ever died as a result of injuries in the ring? Not at all, no. It's quite a new sport as well, so maybe they give it some...

Some MMA fighters have died. I've died, I don't know where I'm from. I think they've been knocked unconscious and then died in hospital. Have they? Yeah, in MMA, not UFC specifically, but I think in other leagues and promotions. There's people that play football that's died on the pitch and stuff. It's a sport, definitely. Yeah, it's probably chess players. Yeah.

It's probably people playing, you know what I mean? Playing Monopoly that have died, slipped on a, you know, like, got an infection. Yeah, exactly. So I feel like as long as you train smart, I feel now I've got enough technology to work around it and enough education to work around. Obviously, you've never been 100% protected yourself because you didn't support any of the day but you can look at yourself best as possible.

What do you think has been the most brutal fight that you were in? I don't know, probably Kamara Uzzman, the second one. That's because I was in Utah, which is high altitude. I didn't prepare for it. I was in Utah, which is high altitude. I didn't prepare for it. I trained in Birmingham. So I went to Utah, my body just went to like, I wouldn't get enough oxygen over my blood.

So I felt a bit more slower than what I would feel like. And we weren't brutal for that punishment. It was more brutal for like, my body wasn't reacting at all. The famous kick that you delivered in the first fight with Usman right where it said that you were basically losing on points and you're in the fifth round and then this sort of Hail Mary kick which knocked his chin sideways. It was unbelievable and he went down. Clean. At a time Kumari Usma was the number one pound for pound fighter in the UFC. And he was the world champion obviously.

And everyone was building him up to be this great, best thing since whatever. And I was number two or three at the time in the rankings and fought for the belt. And yeah, he was one of the things where I went to Utah he trains in Salt Lake I think or Colorado one of them which is our altitude so his body's completely used to fighting at that altitude and he was winning the fight up until round five and knocked him out you know I won round one you won two three and four and I knocked him out in five. Did you, uh, was that planned? The knockout? Yeah. Not, I was not went around. Why didn't you do it in the second round?

Not, not, not, not into round five. You have planned, but the, the technique was planned in training camp. Um, Just ask us. So what, only to ask a silly question, why didn't you do it a bit earlier? I was, I didn't see it. I didn't, I didn't see the opening for it. You didn't see the opening. Yeah, I didn't see the opening for it. It's one of the, for the boxing and MMA and like just fighting, it's like chess, right? There's moves that you might have got in your head that you planned for, but the opportunities for it to land is not there yet.

We noticed in training camp that when he was powering the punch, which is when someone's punching towards your face, you kind of like push it away. It was like powering and moving his head on the outside. And then I thought, my coach was like, if you go the same side kick as well as a punch, you will land it. And that's what I did. So in the fifth round, my brother shouted like cross head kick. So when I threw the cross he did exactly what we thought he would do

which is... Cross is a straight right? Straight, for me straight left because I'm southpaw, I'm left handed. So I threw my straight left, as I went to parry it my leg come around and knocked him out you know. So he went in the direction your kick was coming from? Coming from, yeah, yeah, yeah. As in boxing, you can't do that because you only got one arm, right?

Yeah, right. So, MMA, you got enough technique to mix it up, you know. How, like, okay, again, I'm trying to make it, well, it's gonna be a bit basic, but here we go. How much of you in going into a fight, to what extent is fear in your mind? Fear of not just, not so much losing, but just fear of pain and physical injury.

I know I got no, there's no fear of pain or injury. My fears are, obviously you want to come out healthy and come out the way you went in, went into it. That's not in my mind at all. I think what's in my mind is fear of losing, you know? Really? Yeah, the fear of losing. The fear of not performing to my ability is my fear. Cause it's one of the things that nothing matters

until the actual night you're fighting, right? Like you can feel great in training camp. You can do everything, get up early, run. You can do everything you need to do. But come fight night is the only time it matters, right? You know, everyone judge you off this one night night not how great you looked in training camp so that's my fear really just making sure um i'm up to par come fight night you know so when you're in and when you're actually when the fight's going on you're not thinking oh i want this to be over or

no no no no no. No. Really? Once you're in there, you're in there, you know, you're like, you're going to, you try your best to win. You try your best to win. And that's what it is. There's no hard feelings, like going in there, you know, I'm not really like angry, trying to kill him or you trying to kill me.

I think we're both just trying our best, using our techniques that we've learnt, using our game plan to try to defeat each other. And that's basically what it is. You know? Yeah. So yeah, just I don't think fair. It's more just like nervous of the crowd, of the occasion,

of the build up. You get nervous, you get anxiety, you get everything, which is normal for your human being. But I think when you're younger, it's hard to control it. The more you do it, the more you can control your feelings. You can tell yourself it's normal, you know it, the more you can control your feelings. You can tell yourself it's normal, you know, and yeah, it's fine. Obviously, you're coming off a loss. It's not the elephant in the room, but it's a

fact of the matter. But that was your first loss in how many? In almost 10 years. In almost 10 years. Yeah. Manchester, fought Bilal Mohammed at the timeal Muhammad. July was it this year? July this year, yeah. He was the number one contender at the time to fight and he was on at like five in the morning in Manchester. Five in the morning? Yeah, in Manchester. Explain that. I asked the UFC and they said to deal with the pay-per-view in America to try line up so they can also watch it. Because at 5 in the morning in Manchester it's

midnight in New York and 9 p.m. in California so it's perfect for the American audience. Yeah for them, exactly, for the UK fans. You are welterweight right? How much do you weigh? When I'm fighting 77, I'm going to make 77. But in normal time? Right now? I'm like 91. Yeah. That's a big difference.

Yeah, by two stone. Yeah. At least I go up and down. Two stone? Yeah. That's wild. And you're six feet two? Six one.

Six one. I'm like six two though. We're in the same, the internet said six two. I am six two. And I paid attention because we're in the same, the internet said six two. I paid attention because we're in the same weight class. Why is that funny? I'm six feet two. Yeah. I'm weighing 80 kilos.

It's a hundred and seventy seven pounds. I don't know. I've never cut weight because I've never actually had a fight, but I think I could get down a bit. Have you never had a fight like in school? Not really, no. Not really. Not even teens, not even in the playground. I've been punched a couple of times. Yeah. But I didn't give much back. Didn't punch back. Not really. Well, is it though? It is. Really? Well, is it though? Is that a kind of, am I a role model in terms of nonviolence or have I just pussied out of every encounter? You've probably pussied out of it, but it's okay. It's alright to puss it out sometimes.

Not every fight needs to report. I don't think I, I think I like to think that I've successfully deescalated my encounter. By getting punched? By getting punched and saying, fair enough, here's my lunch money, don't leave me alone. When was the last time you had a fight outside of the ring? Not counting, because you were punched by one or the other. Masvidal. Masvidal.

But that was slightly different. But have you had an actual fight out? I don't want to get you in trouble. No, no. Um, years. When I was younger. Back in the day, if you had a fight, what would it be about? Um, just like being on the road, you know, it's like, like postcards, gangs, friends, the same. Yeah. Every fucking British boy. Really? Yeah. In the UK as well. There's not much to do here. You know, like for a little boy to do, like winter like 15, 14, 15, 16, there's not much for you to do apart from hang out in the street.

Then the more you hang out in the street, the more it's like trouble with your friends and then escalates into whatever escalates into, you know. Oh, we're going to, we're going to come onto that. I know I keep pushing it away. No, it's all good. Okay. Okay. Are we going to touch this one? Andrew Tate? Are we going to go there? Basically you, Andrew Tate, you had a dinner with him? Yeah. It's kind of like Louis Thurman podcast bingo.

Trump, Andrew Tate, Woody Allen. Has Woody Allen never come to a fight? Andrew Tate, what was that all about? The Link Up? I was in Dubai. One of my friends is good pals of him. He invited me out for dinner. Were you there to fight or just socialise? No, I was there on holiday. He said I was going for dinner tonight with Andrew and I said yeah, are you coming? I said yeah, I'll come. And that was it. Was Andrew Tate famous at that time? Yeah, that was like the peak of him I would say. What, before pandemic or during pandemic? He sort of peaked 2020-21, right? Yeah, I think so. I think so. It might have been a pop play though. You were aware of his content.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Undertake by then. What did you think of the content? Some things that it says make sense. Some that it says doesn't make sense. You know, I feel like, I don't know, I see each other, oh no. It's a mix. And sometimes the stuff that's more provocative, you figure it's a way of gaming the algorithm, getting eyeballs by being outrageous. I think he knows that as well.

I think he knows that he has to say some outlandish things to attract the masses, you know. And that's what he did. But within that attraction to masses, he's also trying to spill what he's trying to say to his group of fans and people. So he hadn't been accused of the serious stuff that he's been accused of? No. Anything, are we going to say anything about that? Was it friendly? Like, did you like his vibe? It was a normal, like this, he's just like a normal guy. We had dinner. Was Tristan his brother then?

Yeah, both. They always rolled together. Any others? He was also there. Him, We had a few girls with him. Um, talk about fighting. He used to do kickboxing as well. Yeah, to quite a high standard I think. Yeah, from what I believe in. Um, talk about just like life and that was it. One of our separate ways. You didn't get any Squiffy vibes? You didn't feel like a... No, no, no, no, no, definitely not.

It seemed a little on the other end. A normal night out. Okay. That's not going to make any clickbait. What else are we going to do? So the most recent one, the loss, Ilaul Muhammad, you were saying it was five in the morning. One of the contentions is you were tired because of the time, because it was so early. Is that true? – Not physically tired, mentally. It's like when you wake up at five in the morning to get up to go run or train or whatever you feel, you don't feel you're best. That's how I felt. I felt like I was up at five a.m. to go train. Yes, that's what happens.

– What's your view of the fight? I mean, the fight was, it went five rounds. Yeah. He kept taking you down. Yeah. It was said that he was punching faster. That you that it was said some said that you looked at a little slow. Yeah. I felt it. I felt it. I felt I don't know. I can't explain it to this day. Like what it was just felt like, um, can even I lean up to it. I spoke to a sleep specialist to say, what's the best way to adjust my body? Because normally from my whole 32 years, 33 years, I've been getting up at like, going to bed at 11 o'clock, like a normal sleep schedule, you know? But this time I completely switched my body

from performing at high intensity at like two, three in the morning and sleeping in a day. So it was just like a bit weird. So I spoke to him and he said, if you don't get a good night's sleep, it slows your reaction time down a lot, you know? And yeah, I felt it and that's how it was. Did you see Dana White's comments afterwards? A little bit, what one? Where he was saying, well, obviously it wasn't a barnstormer. Yeah, I mean, hmm, you know, it was what it was. Like he was sort of basically, he seemed to be saying it was a boring fight.

Yeah, it was a boring fight. For me, it was a fucking boring fight. And you were in the ring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just like, I don't know what they did it. They did it before at 5 a.m. When Bisping fought in Manchester. I don't get why they do it. Because realistically, to build a sport in Europe or over here, it should be on like prime time for the UK fans to enjoy it,

to build a sport that more, you know, because not many people wait up to watch 5 a.m. cards. When they're in Vegas, not many people do it, to build a sport up more, you know, cause not many people wait up to watch 5am cards when they're in Vegas. Not many people do it, you know. I record it, I record it and watch it in the morning, I don't really stay up no more to watch them. There were people in the crowd. Yeah, it was sold out. Tens of thousands or whatever. Yeah, like 20, 20, the core food. Must have been weird are like four in the morning. It comes out and it's like daylight. Yeah. Next morning.

So strange. Well, if it's not a rude question, how much did you get paid for the fight with Mohammed Bilal Mohammed? Um, in the mills. Do you get less if you don't win? Is there a win bonus? Not on my contract, but when I first started out in UFC, yeah, half E-Pest.

But also I got to a level where now my money's my money. The money's the money. Yeah, it's the same. Like one of the contentions about UFC, and I hope this isn't too controversial, you can dodge it if you want. Like one of the ideas that has been put about is that, oh, well, they've got such a strong hold on the sport

that actually they can pay fighters more or less what they like and especially those that are coming up, right? Do you think there's anything in that? I mean, there's about what? There's about 500 fighters under contract, right? Yeah, there probably is something within it, you know, but like I said, in boxing, if not under editor and friend choir,, you find a white collar boxing show

is anyway to get to a level where you can make money, right? I feel like the UFC is pretty similar. When you first started out, what were you getting paid for those for those you have first couple of UFC fights? For my first fight was like 12 and 12 or 15 and 15, stuff like that, like 30K. For each or, there was 15? Nah, per fight.

Per fight, 15 per fight. And then you've got all the fees, like you've got to pay your coaches, managers and whatnot. Not much. Support personnel. So you can't really make a living like that. No, by the time I was only like 20 years old, so to get like, I fought three times a year. So let's say I made like for the year 150 grand. At 20 years old, I was paying all your fucking

fees and everything else. At the time it was the right money, at the time. At the time it felt okay. At the time it was okay, you know, because I was young, I was excited to be there. I was happy to work my way up to get to where I'm at now, you know. I think there's some ex fighters who are suing the UFC. Is that right? What's that all about? For similar, the same thing. Monopoly in the market, you know. And they say like there's back pay to all these fighters that fought between whatever it was, 2010 and something.

Yeah, when the first, when it first started off, I think. And to the tune of like, I think, one point something billion. Yeah, I don't know what's going on with that case at the moment. I really looked into it, really. But you feel well, you feel well paid? You know, like, I was on my money. Would you make most of your money from fighting or from sponsorships and deals? Both. Both, I feel.

It's not the one or the other? No, no, I feel like just both. I was fighting, you get paid more for fighting. But my sponsorships is also good money, you know. Okay. Okay, I think we should talk about, I mean we've touched on this, but kind of coming up and you know you've got this extraordinary origin story to do with being born in Jamaica, and then, well better that it should come from you really, like basically what was your situation? I was born in Kingston Jamaica my mom had me she was about 15 years old 16 years old my dad at the time was involved in in gangs and he was like became one of the leaders in my we call it lanes, which is basically like streets. They call them the general?

General, yeah. Or just general? General, yeah. So growing up as a child, I've always known this, you know, like my dad, he wasn't... How was it explained to you? It wasn't explained to me, it's just what it was in the era, everyone, the way they treated him, the way they treated me, the way they talk of him, that's just what it was. And at the time, when you're young, you kind of take pride in it. My dad is who he is and you kind of walk with that

in you. And yeah, I started getting murdered when I was 13 you know. But first the first thing that happens is he moves to the UK right? Yeah so he immigrated to the UK. Had your parents split at that point? Yeah yeah there was split at that point and he immigrated to the UK on his own got remarried in the UK and then he brought over me, my mum and my brother Fabian which competes now in the mixed martial arts as well. He's your younger brother? My younger brother, Fabian. So he brought us. Brother by the same mother? Same mother, same father. Brought us to Birmingham and then yeah we've been in Birmingham ever since. Was he living in London? Yeah, in Croydon, in London. Yeah, yeah.

But even though your parents had separated, he brought your mum over. Yeah, which is... How does that work? I don't know. I don't know how I explained to his wife that I brought my ex-girlfriend to another... Was he still making visits? Was he still... Yeah, he was still involved in my life.

And in her life? Like, wasn't she one of his significant others. That was his probably first love and he came to UK for a better opportunity and he thought I can't leave my family. Most men would you know, I thought I was leaving my family in Jamaica and have a new family in the UK but he thought I ain't doing that. I have my family in the UK and also bring my family from Jamaica and give me the opportunity to achieve something, you know. And he was still involved in, you know, stuff he wasn't supposed to be, right? Yeah, 100%. Definitely. Definitely. Which means what? Like, was it, I mean, forgive me if this is intrusive and if you can't talk

about it, obviously I respect that. Like, he was dealing drugs? Drugs, guns, I can do a lot. Yeah, he was involved, you know. And like I said, I grew up knowing this, you know, this is just like, is what it is. You know what I mean? Was he in your life much? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. To the opposite point where he died, yeah. Coming over to the UK from Jamaica, was that a big change? Yeah. It was freezing. We came in the winter, it was cold. I remember seeing lots of white people. That's mad. I was like nine years old. I was a different language. He spoke

Patwa. So he had a broken English and when you went to school, you get fighting in school because all the kids are kind of like pick on you because you spoke patois. Yeah, really? Can you still speak patois? Um, a little bit, a little bit. If I speak to Jamaican, I can. We've talked like by myself, it's hard. We've got like the Jamaican person, I can do it. Therefore. I'm not going to speak patois. I would love to throw some patois.

Yeah, I listen to a bit of reggae. so I'm on the verge, but I don't think I'm going to do it. I don't think I'm going to do it, guys. It'd be too cringe. You said your dad got killed, right? Can you remember where you were when you heard the news? It was at the time we were living in Aston in Birmingham, in like a two bedroom house. It was like 2 or 3 in the morning, my mum got a phone call. I was in my room with my brother, I was through the walls, I could hear her crying, so I thought, fuck. I thought, there's never good news at like two in the morning.

They just came in and told us, yeah, what happened. I've read that you said, at the time it was oddly unemotional, that you feel it was maybe not as shocking as you might think it would be. Is that right? Yeah, not as shocking because the other thing I grew up around is like every day. I've seen, when I was young, I've seen a lot of people die, you know what I mean, from gang violence and from being on the streets stuff, you know. I've seen a lot. In front of you? Not in front of me, but I've known a lot of people that have been killed by the gun or by stabbing or something. In Jamaica? In Jamaica. So when I was young in Jamaica,

the beef was basically garrisons versus garrisons basically. So this gang versus that gang. And they literally like rose apart from each other. So that's where I seen a lot, you know, not just me, the whole community, this is normal. It wasn't because your dad was doing what he was doing. No, because even, he's doing what he's doing, but so is the other gang as well. They're trying to kill them, they're trying to kill them. So it's just like, this is what it is.

It's an accepted part of life. Yeah, for life. And that was the norm, you know, when it's time for, And that was the norm, you know, when it's time for the, but it goes like seasons. One, they go to that parts where like, there's that wars going on. And then there's, there's seasons where there's nothing going on. You just chill, you can enjoy your life. And then there's seasons where it is like active war going on. And that environment breeds that kind of thing, you know, there's not many poverty ridden areas where there's no crime, you know, because if you can't feed your family and your

your kids and you see your kids starving and you have to do something, you know, and there's no opportunities, there's no signing on to get money, there's no government help, there's nothing like, see if you go get it or that's it, you know. So growing up like this, you kind of like, it's weird because I got a little boy now that's like 11 years old and I couldn't imagine him even like knowing that, you know, but I was around it all, you know, and so when they did get murdered, I was upset, obviously, because it's your dad, but it's, because your dad, but it's hard to explain it. It's one of the things that you kind of like, you normalise stuff like that, you know, and it's mad. It's crazy, you know.

Then so when you come to Birmingham, it's pretty different, but nevertheless, there's obviously still issues, there's things going on. You've spoken a little bit about getting slightly involved. I don't know how you would put it, but there was a time when you might have been at risk of following the path that your dad had been on. Yeah, definitely. Once my dad died when I was 13 years old. I kind of went down that same similar path, you know, we're getting involved in gangs and drugs and stuff like that, you know. With friends in the area? Friends in the area where I grew up, friends in school. At the time in Birmingham, there's

like a big, there's like two massive gangs, like Johnnys and Burger Bars, these two big gangs. The Burger Boys, did you say? Yeah, and the Johnnison's crew. At the time, back in the day. Those are two gangs. Are they black gangs, white gangs? Black. Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All black. And were you affiliated with the Johnnison's or the Burger Boys? I wasn't affiliated as much with them. Johnnison's, because my school, where I went to in Aston, was where it started so he's around it when he's leaving school they all be outside school hanging out and robbing kids and stuff like that.

Yeah, taking your phones. They were teenagers or older men? You got like the- Or everything. Yeah, yeah, everything. Right. So you were saying how you kind of got slightly beguiled into it. Yeah, going down the wrong path your dad had died

Is that what you said and then and then what happened? I think I was kind of like blame the world for what happened to my dad and I Was going on a similar path for getting involved in In stuff like that similar stuff that you was getting involved in 13 14 15 15 16 16. Yeah. Yeah that he was getting involved in. He was 13, 14, 15? 15, 16. 16. Yeah, yeah.

I got him involved in mixed martial arts 17, so yeah. So I feel about from 13 to about 18, I would say, you know. He's kind of been on the wrong path, yeah. Did you get arrested? Been arrested, just not been to jail. Yeah. Been arrested for like carrying knives and stuff like that, but I've never been to like prison, you know.

Right, I mean, because actually like fighting is fighting, but a knife is, is, is obviously next level. Yeah, a hundred percent. I feel like not like Cameron knife is our insecurity, right? He's like, you don't know how to protect yourself with just your hands, you know, so I feel like most kids that do it to to do it out of fear. Like someone else is carrying a knife, I need to carry one.

Or if a fight breaks out, and he's got a knife I have and I'm fucked. You know what I mean? So it always depends on an individual, visual, who really wants to do it. But I think most of it is insecurity. That's it. You were, were you known, leaving the knife to one side, were you known as a good fighter?

Yeah, yeah. At what point did you realise actually maybe I've got something? I'm from school, you know. I've always, I'm the one that always, I'm the friend that like, if you're next to me, you're in a fight because you know I won't leave you know and so I had a name Rocky from school and then he turned my name was Rocky from school yeah yeah and then it translated into MMA you know crazy yeah would you ever go looking for a fight like a recreational fight you know like a fight for fun a good straightener not for fun straightener record a straightener

That's interesting Straightener a good old straightener Sometimes well after meet you after school for a straight neck. Yeah. Yeah Am I the only one who doesn't know about this Like I was in the straightener. This Just a straightener, just one on one, you versus me. No weapons, just hands. And just in the field, in the park and go hey. I never had a straightener. Never too old to start. I'm ready for a straightener for the over 50s. And then would you, what would like, you would have rounds or you'd just

go at it? Um, no, it'd be like it was something that sets it off Can you remember any reasons why you would have had a straightener? Um, I don't know it could be anything Or postcode over could be over a yeah, we'll postcode the whole thing about Weird yeah, it's stupid. It's weird cuz literally just a way for people to deliver post, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? And then it's become like something that you would kill and die for. Yeah, which is fucked in. That is so messed up.

And it's weird because- And it's just not even like, it's like NW6 till I die. Dude, that is just- NW6. You know what I mean? Yeah, like growing up now, like with a wider view in the world, it is weird. But at the time I truly believed it. What was your postcode? I was group editing, so it's like B23. Did that mean something, B23? Yeah, because it's like your area, right?

Which is weird because my mum... Have you got a tattoo of B23? No, I'm not committed to it. Not a tattoo on my skin. But at the time though, when you're living in it, like you actually believe what you're saying to yourself. What happens if you move? Then do you switch allegiances to the new postcode?

Nah, nah, nah, nah. Your friends are your friends then. Your friends are your friends until you die. So it's just, you happen to be residing in the wrong postcode, undercover, doing a deep cover. Like looking back now is fucking crazy, but when you're younger, with a young mentality and your friends are doing the same thing and that's the environment. I think you're more likely to be a part of a few environment. It's like same as Jamaica, you know, like there's

particularly a few environment it's like same as Jamaica you know like is the people have died over the product don't know reason why started and they've died over you know and so yeah so when you in terms of getting out of the lifestyle in so far as you were in it right how did you kind of was there a moment was it going to the gym or what was the sequence of events that led you to sort of straighten up and fly right the gym I've been going to the gym or what was the sequence of events that led you to? sort of Straighten up and fly right the gym. I've been going to the gym, you know One day my I got arrested one day and then there's a gym game built in the area When I arrested mom's like crying is our like you like what was that for the knife?

One of them. Yeah. Yeah. How many times were you arrested a few times always for a knife knife or fighting? I'm gonna ask you a question. Yeah, you don't have few times. Always for a knife? Knife or fighting. Really? Um... I'm gonna ask you a question. Yeah. You don't have to answer. No, I didn't. No. What?

You said, did I stab somebody? How did you know I was gonna ask that? Because that's all the questions leading after that. No. Would you say if you did? Yeah. That must be a load off your mind in a way. Like you have to carry that.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. Definitely. Have you ever badly hurt someone? Um, I've been in situations, you know. Um, yeah. I've been in situations. Not know, um, yeah. I've been in situations. Not sure if that's an answer.

You've been in situations, like I said, this is the environment you grew up in and you're limited mentality on life. I don't mean to sound, it sounds all weighted. I don't mean to sound like you've been in situations. Where you've had to hurt someone quite badly. Protect myself. Yeah. I. I got a free mind and Good. You got clear conscience.

Clear conscience. So you would say you got arrested then where you said we were going to get to the gym. Your mum was crying. So yeah, there was a gym getting built in my area and I had a thing called UTC, Ultimate Training Center. She was like, you should try this out. Like try out, you want to do kickboxing, let's go try this gym out. Went up there and inquired about membership. It was 60 pound a month. At the time I knew she couldn't afford six quid a month and I was to pay for the house and for the kids and yeah, so somehow she did it. She paid because she felt... for the kids and yeah, so watch it. Somehow she did it.

She paid because she felt... To save her son's life, right? To save her son's life. Just the way the path is going down. She could see it happening. Yeah, I'd hope you can like, now if my son get involved in something, I'd be able to see it because I've got years of experience.

You didn't have any convictions though, right? You'd only been arrested. Yeah, yeah, never. Nothing went to trial or... No, no. I've been trial or? No, no. I've been to court and stuff, but I've never, I've always... Beaten the charge?

Beaten the case, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I feel like for her, she's just thinking out like, what more can I do, you know, like, to get my son to fix up? Because at the time when I was getting in trouble, so was my brother, you know, he was also falling down the same... Same path?

Path as me, you know, he was also falling down the same same path as me, you know, he's copying his big brother to be involved and you gotta think when as an immigrant, when you're a single parent household, your mom has to work, when she works, there's a lot of time for you to go out, because you're home by yourself, you know. You weren't, at that time, wasn't to do with dealing. Like you weren't like on the, on the career part. It wasn't like at the start of like, Oh, well, maybe we can sell a bit of product in the local area. Not at that stage. No, no, no, no, no. We got to that stage, but no. About the time, like I said, you're young, 14, 13, 14, 15. But then later on it became more like, cause they didn't want, you want money, you're young, 14, 13, 14, 15. But then later on it became more like...

They didn't want you, you want money? You need a bit of money so you get a hookup. You want clothes, you want tracksuits, you want trainers, you know what I mean? And then as you do what you can do to provide, you know, to help your mom out as well. Yeah. So then you've got, your own record has described, you've you say I can't get the quote exactly right but it's along the lines of the UFC became your dad or MMA became your dad? Not my dad.

I feel like a father figure in a way. It came out positive, positive reinforcement in my life. You know, I feel like when I got into mixed martial arts, the voice that I'd probably give to my son. I was getting that from mixed martial arts. Was there a specific trainer? I think there's one guy that stands out more than others, which is Mark. He was the owner of the gym.

At the time, he was the one that like saying to me, like, you're good, you can do it. And at one point he was paid to like take me around the world, like to Vegas, to watch UFC and yeah, and other places that when I was young, I was in the old- Out of his own money he took you to Vegas? Out of his own money, yeah. Because of the promise that he saw in you? Yeah, yeah.

Had you started fighting at that point? Yeah. Because of the promise that he saw in you? Yeah. Yeah. Had you started fighting at that point? I was, but I was like an amateur, you know, but you could tell from how good I was doing in amateurs how good I am, you know. Was that your first time in the US? First ever time in the US, yeah. That must have been quite an eye opener. Yeah, it was crazy.

It was mad. I mean, Vegas is weird enough, even if you've lived in America, let alone, you know, coming from Birmingham. Yeah, I know. It's come from Jamaica, then going to Birmingham, going to Vegas. Um, you're just like a blow, blow. It's like Oz. Yeah. It's like, it blows your mind. It's like, wow. Yeah. It's like the capital of the American subconscious, I sometimes think, you know, all of those appetites, the, you know, money, sex, you know, whatever that fighting entertainment impulses all in Vegas, it's all there, you know, with those extraordinary buildings, pyramids, skyscrapers.

Was it a UFC fight that you saw? Did you see one of my teammates is. He was fighting in San Jose. So we flew to Vegas to train or something. And then from Vegas, we drove to San Jose. That's quite a long drive. A long, long drive. So that was your first exposure to American culture and to a live UFC event. And then did you get this, you got the taste for it or you already had the taste for it? My first ever UFC event was in Birmingham.

So the UFC came to Birmingham back in the day. I was like 18, probably 19. I remember just going there and I was like on the nosebleeds like far. I remember just going there thinking, I'd love to like to do it, you know, I'd love to like achieve it and Yeah, I can one the world

So that was the big life-changing thing how's your energy by the way, are we all right for time you doing okay, Leo I'm good. Yeah, I have a sip of water I feel like we can't really... Probably a lot of ground. Oh God. Are you alright? What's so funny? It's not that funny. You got like very dry humour. I don't think it'd be even funny. Yeah, no, I'm just trying to...

But that makes it funny. Yeah, I try to. I do my best. Donald Trump, we've done Trump. Who's the greatest, present company excluded? Who's the best UFC fighter of all time? For me, I'll say John Jones. John Jones. He's fighting this weekend. My second best is Adil Sover. Who's the worst of all time? Bilal. Wow, trash talking. It was weird how he said, Oh, I'm not. He

wasn't, he said a view like he wasn't champion very long. So I don't need to fight him again. Did you see him say that? No. Yeah. Bill Arle said that. He disrespected you. I'm stoking the beef. I'm gonna set you on him. Yeah. Let me get a go. Yeah. He's not, he's not all that. You want another piece of him or not really? Yeah, 100%. I love to run it back. Why wouldn't they just let you fight him again? No more time. Do you think if you, it's not like boxing where they give you a rematch clause.

No, no, no. But I love to run it back again. Like next year. Where are you in the rankings? Number, so one. You think if I worked as hard as you, I'd be as good as you? You? Probably not. If I worked as hard as you I'd be as good as you you probably not No, I was think I was kind of joking because I'm a 54 year old man with a big nose They say a big nose is a liability and to get broken quite. He's Chris Eubank told me Easy to break. Let us just straight nose is

snap straight away. Steadion? That sounds like a threat. Did you just threaten me? Steadion. Yeah, you just threatened me. You'd snap my nose like a twig? Not me, I'm saying it's easier. Or someone would. Yeah, yeah. You work hard. I think there's more to it than that though. There's some physical endowments though, aren't there? Like speed, agility, strength. I don't

know. Like are you conscious of having a physical skill set? Yeah, I think naturally I'm like a great athlete anyway. You know, like in school I used to play football, basketball, athletics, travelling. To quite a high standard. Yeah, running, sprinting. Football? Football, all in school. Yeah.

Yeah. But you were basically pretty good in all the categories. Yeah, in all sports.. I was an athletic. Do you train when you're not building up to a fight? Yeah. Just like, did you train today? I'm going to train when I get back tonight. Yeah. What will you do? Tonight I'm just going to do run, run and like just lift. Then tomorrow. Lift some weights. What can you bench? I don't really bench as much. It's more just like, I can bench. Wait, steady. What did you? You said, no, you can't. I heard you. You never

had a fight before in your life? You said? I've never had a fight. Never. No. What can you push? What are you benching? Benching. What do you think? I don't know. What is benching? Is it when you lie down and you push things up like that? It's chest, isn't it? I realise I'm not an athlete. No, that's fine. It's okay. I think, I actually think, but I don't think training is just for athletes. I think everyone should train. Do I sound defensive? How many push-ups do you think you could do? Within just any- Within?

Like before maxing out? I don't know. Well, you've never got that far. Like a thousand? Nah, not a thousand. Without stopping? Yeah, without stopping. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.

Probably like a, I don't know, 100, 100 or something. What? That's a lot. I think I could do 30. Go on. Do you want me to? Go on, you cannot do 30 press ups. But it wouldn't be- You cannot Do you want me to? Go on, you cannot do 30 press ups. But it wouldn't be your challenge.

Would you be able to see it? You cannot do 30 press ups. You think I can't? You cannot do 30 press ups, no. Really? I'm not doubting you. Can you do 30? Can you see me if I do it?

You cannot do 30. Nah. I said 20. Yeah, it's cycles. That's his legs though. Go, let's go. Chest to mat. One, it's cycles, it's legs though. Go, let's go. Chest to mat, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

10 more, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Let's go. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. I give it yeah Okay, so here I am back in my normal home, the beautiful Spotify studios. What did you think? Impressed? What was striking listening to it was how low Leon's estimate was for what he thought I could do. Did he say he thought I might manage 10? So that was obviously satisfying doing 35. And that's a PB, incidentally. I think in the moment of adrenaline and wanting to show off I got some kind of super strength in it, it powered me into an extra five. So if you said 35 push-ups, then mark your card correct. For those keeping LTP bingo cards, mark Andrew Tate and Trump. I don't know if Trump's actually one of the entries on the card, is it? And Woody Allen. I did mention Woody Allen, even though it went nowhere. There's me being glib about serious things, which is kind of my brand.

A quick clarification, I mentioned that some ex-UFC fighters are suing the UFC for having a monopoly over the MMA market. At the time of recording, a settlement of $375 million is subject to court approval. We'll include a link in the show notes for more information about that. MMA deaths were mentioned. There have been at least seven fighters killed in the ring or cage during MMA events since 2019, and another nine more have reportedly died at unsanctioned cage fighting cards at the same time. I think that's it. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows.

The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHAUS production for Spotify.