The Louis Theroux Podcast - S5 EP1: Bella Ramsey on being a child actor, dealing with critical fandoms and overcoming emetophobia

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

To kick off the new series, Louis is joined in the studio by Bella Ramsey, rising star of ‘Game of Thrones’ and ‘The Last of Us’. Bella delves into their experiences as a child actor, dealing with critical fandoms online, and their phobia of vomiting.   Warnings: Some strong language and discussions of sensitive themes, including mental health issues and eating disorders. For further information and support, visit https://resources.byspotify.com/         Links/Attachments:  BEAT – UK Eating Disorder Charity   https://www.beateatingdisorders.org.uk/get-information-and-support/get-help-for-myself/i-need-support-now/helplines/    TV Show: ‘Game of Thrones’ (2011-2019) - HBO  https://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones    TV Show: ‘The Last of Us’ (2023 – Present) - HBO  https://www.hbo.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GYyofRQHeuJ6fiQEAAAEy     TV Show: ‘The Worst Witch’ (2017 - 2020) - CBBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b09m8lyz/the-worst-witch     Video Game: ‘The Last of Us’ (2013) - Sony PlayStation  https://www.playstation.com/en-us/the-last-of-us/     TV Show: ‘Time’ (2021-2023) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p09fs2qh/time?seriesId=p09fs2qh-structural-2-p0g5k19n     TV Show: ‘Cracker’ (1993-1996) - ITV  https://www.itv.com/watch/cracker/1a1918     TV Show: ‘Quiet on Set: The Dark Side of Kids TV’ (2024) - Investigation Discovery  https://www.discoveryplus.com/gb/show/quiet-on-setthe-dark-side-of-kids-tv     TV Show: ‘Chernobyl’ (2019) - HBO  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9APLXM9Ei8    EmetAction – UK Emetophobia Charity   https://emetaction.org/     The Thrive Programme  https://www.thriveprogramme.org/     Book: Emetophobia-Free, Rob Kelly (2014)  https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=thrive+programme+emetophobia&crid=2Q58R6N2PS6MW&sprefix=thrive+programme+emetophobia%2Caps%2C114&ref=nb_sb_noss_1    Louis Theroux: Talking to Anorexia (2017) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09d5nk2/louis-theroux-talking-to-anorexia     Book: The Lord of the Rings, J. R. R. Tolkien (1954)      Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Maisie Williams  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk       Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1212, hello there, are you there? Is this thing on? Can you hear me? Hello, Louis Theroux here and welcome back to my podcast, the Louis Theroux podcast. And for the first episode of the series, I'm delighted to be joined by none other than the star of Game of Bella Ramsey. Bella's breakout role was at age 11 as Lyanna Mormont in the HBO fantasy phenomenon Game of Thrones, maybe you've heard of it. After a critically and culturally acclaimed run in the show, Bella went on to feature in CBBC's adaptation of The Worst Witch, less culturally acclaimed, but valid and important, but left at the end of the third series due to struggles with mental health and an eating disorder. In 2021 Bella was cast as the lead role in HBO's post-apocalyptic drama series The Last of Us.

It's on at the moment. On now? Is it on now? In the UK, HBO in America. Check your local listings. But here's the point. It's an excellent series and as I record this, I'm two episodes in. At the time of the interview I was one episode in and I didn't know, spoiler alert, that

one of the main characters got killed. Shall I go further? Yes, Pedro. Pedro Pascal is killed. I've ruined it for you. But there we are, which is exciting in a way because it means now Ellie is carrying the series. And who knows where it will go next? Deal with it. Warning. There is strong language in the episode, as well as discussions around mental health and eating disorders. Oh, and if you're at all squeamish about vomit, there's a section later on in the conversation that you might want to brace yourself for. A lot of chat

about vom. So here's my embarrassing confession, which is that I hadn't seen The Last of Us, and my family had all watched it. I'm going straight in on The Last of Us, because for many people that will be chiefly what they know you for. And so I had the pleasure of watching it in the last couple of weeks, kind of binging it and realising why people love it so much and what a special piece of work it is. Did you watch the first season? Yeah, the first season. And of the second season, which has just been released or is

about to be released, they let me watch the first episode. That's what I got to see. Many people, as I said, will know it, will have watched it. Some won't, some won't, and I don't want them to feel left out. So we should do the heavy lifting of explaining what it is for people. It's, well I'm not very good at explaining things, but it's sort of set in a post-apocalyptic America. I feel like I'm like now going back to my season one press days where I had to like do this. It's good. It's all in there. The muscle memory is fresh. Exactly. Set in a post-apocalyptic America, there's a smuggler guy called Joel who's basically

tasked with smuggling a kid, Ellie, who's me, across America to get to the Fireflies, which are like a militia group who are like basically gonna make a cure out of Ellie because she's immune to this virus. It's not a normal pandemic or it's a fungal infection. It is. Which sounds almost anti-climactic when you put it like that. You think of a foot fungus or a mold, but actually what it allows them to do, first of all, it roots it in something quasi plausible.

Yes. Because it's based on, go on, you take it, you take it. Well, yeah, it's not just like a veruca fungus. It's like fungus. Ants. Talk about the ants. Oh, that, oh. Do you know about those? Yes. So it's like a real thing that happens cordyceps in the actual real world infects the minds of like yeah ants and then they basically

become like the the infected in the show. Become like zombies. Yeah they're completely controlled by this fungus whose the goal of the fungus is to like infect the rest of the colony and like take over the colony slash the world. I didn't realize it was based on a video game. Yeah. And not only a video game but like a hugely successful one that came out I guess 10 or so years ago. Yeah. On the Sony PlayStation, which I think like me you hadn't even played when you came to work on the show.

No. Neil Druckmann, one of the co-writers of the TV series, had written the video game, is that right? Yes. Inspired by finding out about the ants and the cordyceps. Mad, yeah. Did you know that? I didn't know that was what it was inspired by, but that makes a lot of sense.

You found out about that and you were thinking about it, and thought this is a great premise for a zombie-type apocalyptic scenario. Did it for the video game. Yeah. And then it went on to become the basis for the TV show. But it's rather an emotional drama, right? That sounds so basic. Is that making sense? Yes, I think that's what's... That was always in the publicity for it for season one and now for season two. The idea of it, this post-apocalyptic world, being the backdrop,

it's all about the relationships. The show wouldn't be the show that it is. It wouldn't be entertaining really if it wasn't for the really complicated relationships between the... Joel and Ellie specifically. Joel and Ellie. Joel is the... What did you call him? A smuggler? Yeah, but that's just one of his identities. He's got many. I'm sure he's a dad. In his whole life he was a building contractor.

He was a contractor, yeah. Contractor, smuggler. It's not a spoiler to say that his, in the first episode, his daughter, I was going to say something happens to her. So we arrive, for most of the action, at a point where he's emotionally bereft. He's an empty husk of a man trying to survive. He's very far from being an idealist. Yeah.

He's a survivor. Very much so. And then we follow the plot of his growing relationship, you know, paternal relationship with Ellie. With Ellie. And Ellie's never had a family, like doesn't have a mum, doesn't have a dad, as far as she knows. So for her, Joel is the first person who's ever shown her, maybe Marlene, who's sort of her caretaker in the Boston QZ, where she's sort of is before. Quarantine zone. Quarantine zone. I remember when I got the script I was like qz clad and right you would do so British in British. I didn't know you were British

That was the other part really until when? Until someone said you were whoa. Yeah. Yeah, very pretty your accent is great. Thanks. Was that hard work? It was I I really liked learning and I enjoyed It was. I really liked learning and I enjoyed getting to learn American accent. But it was, I got so frustrated with myself. Like on set sometimes I really flip between British and American a lot by accident. When I'm, yeah, when I'm working. I keep, I make it a real point now, especially this season to be like British when I'm not between takes. Really? Yeah because I'm a different person in a British accent than I am in an American accent. That's interesting. Yeah because also I learned American through the character of Ellie and through her dialogue and through

that so I'm much more Ellie like when I'm like having an American accent like I swear more and I'm a bit more like yeah my emotions are closer to the surface when I'm being American the one I'm being British and all like internal and shy. That's interesting so on set during the first season you might occasionally be American? I mean yeah I started out trying to be American the whole time because some actors do that right? Yeah but then I quickly realised that I didn't feel... the connections that I was then making with people on set felt a little bit ingenuine because

like, I'm not American and the fact that I had this American accent was sort of my American version of myself. I didn't like that I was making these connections with people but it wasn't fully me in like my, yeah, at my core. So then I started to be British in between and then tried to maintain that. But it's hard. The amount of times I'll like slip into American and then I'll...

Can you slip into American quite easily? Yeah. This is a leading question. It's harder when I'm around like with you now, it's harder around British people. We can try. What if I have a different personality in American as well because I become a little bit mannered, ever so slightly camp. I'm going to try and dial that down. Okay. Welcome, Bella Ramsey to the Louis Thoreau podcast. How are you doing?

I'm pretty good, you know. This is not my American personality. I'm going a little bit overboard. Overboard. Overboard. Oh my god you're in a publicity cycle. You must be busy. Are you very busy? Can you believe it? I am so busy. I feel like we're doing, we're not quite being, I think I've taken you down the wrong path. We're doing caricatures. Yeah. I'll try and, let's try again.

Okay. Hello, Louis. They talk about, I guess the question would be, how close to the real Bella is Ellie? Is Ellie in you in some way? Very good question. Yeah, for sure. This is so weird. Yeah, Ellie is definitely in me. The way that you're looking at me right now is very American, reporter way. You're just looking with these eyes that are boring into my soul.

I don't think my eyes... I wasn't doing American with my eyes. You were. it was happening. You can give a serious answer to that. I feel like the American thing was just a dog leg. Yeah. Is Ellie like me? Yeah, in some way. Like Ellie, I think Ellie is who I imagine I am in my head. Like, she's more, yeah, having emotions that close to the surface is something that I sort of dream about. I'm so measured with when I'm talking and my actions and what I do, I've sort of seen the consequences of my actions before I do them, so then I change my actions accordingly.

I don't know, which is a good thing, but it can also feel like a bit of a curse sometimes because I don't have as much... You overthink? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, but it's not even overthinking, it's more that I know the consequences of my actions. So I've never been drunk, for example. In your life? In my life, because I don't want... You're 21 years old.

Yeah. Have you drunk at all? Have you had a few drinks? I recently yeah, I've maybe felt tipsy But that's the like that's it I've never been drunk because I've thought about the next day like I I don't want to feel shit the next day I want to remember what happened and I I Just don't want to feel horrible I'm like I don't need to drink so much that I feel horrible the next day like I can can have a good time without doing that or without drinking anything at all. So I just won't. That's great if you can do that.

Yeah. I wish I could do that. I think you could. I probably could. Maybe I could. I think you could. But Ellie is much more... she doesn't like think before she speaks and she doesn't think before she does. She's impulsive. She's impulsive.

She has violent tendencies. Yes, she does. She's impulsive? She's impulsive. She has violent tendencies. Yes, for sure. She's angry. She's very angry. And I think that that's anger is an emotion to me that's quite inwards. I don't express any anger that I have. I think I don't have very much in the first place. And then when I do have it, like I don't express it really.

It's just all sort of happens inside and that the ability of like someone like Ellie where she doesn't have that ability, like it does just come out. I don't know. I think that's, I kind of love that about her and I love getting to play that. And I think that when I am working and like playing Ellie for all of this time, I think it does give me sort of access to my, to emotions like that a bit more, which is good. Like it's important, I think, that you experience anger and can express it. Yeah, for sure.

In safe ways and good ways, but... Do you mean sometimes Ellie and the act of playing Ellie could give you practice in expressing things emotionally and even open up doors inside you? Yeah, I think so. There is sort of like an enmeshment merging thing that happens where I can be a bit more blunt or a bit more like when I'm on set I'm working or a bit more like I guess cheeky in a fun way because Elliot's like if I was playing someone who was very internal and shy and didn't I

probably wouldn't do that. I don't know. I think there is definitely a bit of a merging thing that happens. I was watching the Jimmy McGovern drama you did called Time last night, which is on BBC iPlayer if you're in the UK. And you play a young heroin addict. I do. And who's gone to prison. And you do some good anger in that. Yeah, that's a bit of work that I'm the proudest of for sure.

Right, I could see that. It was really good. Thanks. Why are you proudest of it out of interest? Because it was the one, that was the first job I ever did where I didn't do a self-tape for it and that was a weird experience for me, of them just sending this script and wanting me to do it. I'm like, well how, how is that even possible? And I had no experience of drug use. I couldn't believe that they thought that I could do it. And I didn't know whether I could do it.

Who's they in the sentence? Is Jimmy McGu... People who don't know, Jimmy McGuimn is a UK TV legend. Yes. He's been working for decades, probably best known for Cracker, the series he did with Robbie Coltrane. That was my little bit of exposition. Yeah, that was well done. Well, I feel like I've taken this off track now. What were you even talking about? Jimmy...

Oh, yeah, whose they was the question? I guess the producers or casting director. Yeah, right. So not Jimmy McGough, because it was directed by someone else again. Yeah, by Andrea Harkin. Okay. But yeah, it was quite... I was very intimidated by it and didn't know whether I could do it literally until we did the first

take, until action was called for the first time and then cut. And I was like, oh, phew, it's going to be okay. I was convinced this was going to be the one where I realized I actually couldn't act. You were going to be found out. Yeah. But it was the most amazing experience. And it's amazing how living as someone for a bit on set who's completely different from you, it gave me such insights into... Because there were very real people like Kelsey in the world, all of the characters in that show.

And there's so much of other people's experience that you can't possibly understand until... And not to say that I understand the experience of being a heroin addict because I literally just played a character for a few months, but the levels of empathy I think that you get from playing someone like that and doing the research of like being in the skin for a bit, I just like understand now, I think, the sort of nuance of that. Did you do research for something something for a role like that? I mean maybe it would be too weird, like to spend time among

people with heroin addiction. I went into a prison in Liverpool and met people who had cocaine and alcohol use. Just to get the vibe? Yeah. To speak to people? Yeah, I spoke to a lady who was actually about to be released and she was just describing

the feeling of addiction, the sort of whole body experience of that. Like every cell in your body needs the substance, needs the next hit. Like it's all you can think about is that your whole body needs it. So that was really helpful for me, talking to her about that and sort of hearing a lived experience. And then so I did, I met her and went into that prison. And then the other bit of research that I did was I literally watched a YouTube video of someone on heroin and then went to sleep feeling like I was a heroin addict.

And then that was all like the research that I did. It's such a weird thing of I can like even with TV shows, I don't really watch much film on TV because I get so I don't know. I almost feel like I become the characters I'm watching. Interesting. Anyway, I feel I could go deeper into that. But I hear 10 million people saying in my head, talk more about Pedro Pascal. Oh, yeah.

I think you get that quite a lot, don't you? A lot, yeah. I actually didn't realise how much until there was one time I was watching a video interview that I did on like a red carpet or something. I don't really know why I was watching it. But then I looked at the comments and it was like there wasn't a single question about Bella they were all about Pedro. I didn't realize at the time and then I like watched it back I was like oh yeah that's so weird I do get it. I wasn't gonna

ask just about Pedro I was gonna ask about your relationship because what people love is the chemistry you have on screen. Yeah. But it is kind of a double act right? Yes. Both in terms of film, but also the meta-narrative around the production. People are very invested in the idea of you being friends. Yes. I mean, I adore him. And I can see why, like, from working with him

and spending time with him for two years now, basically, everyone who meets him is, like, really taken with him for two years now, basically. Everyone who meets him is like, really taken with him. Because he saw himself and so generous and excitable. He's a bit like a puppy, like in a nearly 50 year old human being. Shall we talk about, you know, because there's another, the other part of this, we were talking about the meta narrative around, around The Last of Us and then Game of Thrones, that's a whole other thing. Okay, so I haven't, I've never really watched it.

Okay. I almost feel a bit special because of that. Actually, truthfully, I watched the first two episodes of Game of Thrones and I was like, this is fucking ridiculous. We shall go winching in the morrow. Sir, it is three moons since we did feast upon the tide of Evensong when we did quest upon the battle of Yor. And I was like, this is no offence. And no offence taken. And then everyone's like, oh my god, Game of Thrones is so amazing. And I was like, really?

Wenching upon the morrow? Stop it. And then more and more people said they loved it. And then it was the biggest, literally the biggest show in the world. Yeah, it's crazy. I haven't seen it all either. Haven't you? No, I need to.

Have you seen the bits you were in? Yeah. And I've seen a lot of 6, 7 and 8. But I didn't have a clue what's going on because I hadn't seen any of the other stuff. You played... Lyanna Mormonts. Lyanna Mormont. A favourite character, I'm told. Yeah, apparently so.

A fan favourite. Maybe the favourite. Even though you didn't have that many lines. No, I was in, um, like, two scenes in this... I actually don't remember how many, but I was supposed to just be in one scene of season six. I just, I was 11. I never, it's my first ever job. I'd never dreamed of being an actor. I didn't have any expectations. No one in my family is in the industry. I had no reference point for what being on set was going to be like. I had not a clue what I was doing. It was all just so like new and exciting and amazing to me. I just had the best time. I felt very instantly at home and comfortable and set in a way that I'd never felt anywhere in my life before.

I did so many clubs and groups and I was a really busy kid. I did everything. Growing up in the north of England, near Nottingham? Yes, in the East Midlands. Can we be more specific? I was born in Nottingham, grew, in the East Midlands. Can we be more specific? I was born in Nottingham, grew up in Leicestershire. In a village? Yeah. Do we say the name of the village? No. Because you want your parents to have privacy? Yeah, and also... The village would be inundated with millions of people paying homage, doing pilgrimages, would you be overrun?

It really would. Be like lords, people would be coming and... And bowing at the door. Bowing at the door, buying trinkets. Exactly. Yeah, no. I've managed to really maintain a lot of privacy. Like my life is very much the same as it was.

But you don't live up there anymore. I did until October, I moved down to London. But I still go home and I want to be able to go home and... I get it, I was being facetious, I totally respect your right to... Thank you. ...to keep a veil over aspects of your life. Thanks. Can we say what your parents do for a living?

Mmm... Nah, I don't think so. Well that was a clue. Mmm... They tune instruments. Hmm. That's interesting because actually it doesn't come up on the Wikipedia page or any of the profiles.

It doesn't. No, I think it's nice, like not. My whole family is very musical and creative. My parents met through music. Oh, there you go. You've got it. But we were so far removed from the film and TV industry, we didn't know anyone in it. When did I say that? I mean, it's all true. Yeah, they did meet through music. We are quite a musical family. Be weird if it wasn't true, given that you said it. But so, so the parents, whatever they were doing, they weren't stage

parents? No, not at all. This brings us to the question of children in the industry. Mm. Yeah. That brought a wry smile to your lips. Yeah, it's quite an interesting topic. It's a quite hot topic. Yeah. What I get from you is that you've had a terrific experience. Don't allow me to speak for you, but if anything,

some of your happiest times have been on set. Absolutely. You sort of found yourself. You fitted in in a way that maybe you didn't fit in, perhaps in school, in civilian life, if you like. Yes. Nevertheless, many people don't find that. And as children, I interviewed Jeanette McCurdy,

who is in Nickelodeon films. She was talking about how awful, she was pushed by her mum, which is a completely different scenario. Yeah, yeah. And there's this series that's on, it was on last year, Quiet on Set. Oh, I saw that, yeah. Did you?

I didn't see it, but I saw lots of clips of it. About child actors having horrific experiences during Nickelodeon TV shows. Yes. Why do you think you had a good experience and to what extent have there ever been times where you thought, oh, I can see how this might be otherwise? I think because I wasn't pushed into the industry in any way. There was no outside pressure from my parents, from anyone around me.

It was very much like led by me. But even it wasn't even led by me. It just sort of happened to me sort of by accident. And then I loved it and wanted to carry on. My mom was always so great with me like on set. She came with me everywhere. I was pretty anxious like as a youngster. but she was great. What do you ask? Why was it a good experience? And could you see how it might not be? For context, Jeanette McCurdy said,

oh, I don't even think child actors should be allowed. Or at least she tabled that as a possible idea. I understand how it could not be, yes. I think in the UK, I'm glad that it sort of, I was in the UK during film. Because Game of Thrones was filming in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland, yeah. I think that America is sort of a different beast in a lot of ways. I've never worked over there, filmed in the US. Right, because last of us was Canada.

Yeah. But your American sets. It's just a different vibe. filmed in the US. Right, because last of us was Canada. Yeah. But you're American sets. It's just a different vibe. I wish I had a better way to describe it. But it just feels British sets feel a lot more safe and a lot kinder in my experience. I mean, I've not really worked in America, just been on a couple of the sets and not really enjoyed it. I think that I can definitely see how kids can be... One, if they don't want to be there, I don't think they should be there. Of course, we can all agree with that. Really?

Yeah, I've seen kids that absolutely don't want to be there and are there because their parents want them to be there, which is such a problem. Also, kids who have, who are in things who, who should have more protection around them, like if they've had a difficult upbringing or there isn't a lot of protection for the kids sometimes, I think it's got a lot better. I also had a really good experience, I think, because I was working on, like, but maybe this is just for me, like on shows with adults. I always felt more comfortable with like adults. I was friends with all the teachers at school rather than like the kids my age. That's always been much more comfortable to me. So I was never intimidated by the adults around me. I felt that we were equals always. And so there's, I've never felt like a weird power dynamic thing,

which I think is often the case for kids that are so vulnerable in so many cases. I never felt vulnerable in those ways, I think because I saw myself very naturally as equal to the people around me. And so therefore was like treated as such mostly when I wasn't it was very annoying but I think you said that the year that you made season one of The Last of Us was maybe

one of the happiest yeah of your life it's actually the best year of my life it's wonderful challenging and hard work but I had the best time. Go on. I mean, I was 17, turned 18, first time in North America. It was such an escape from like my normal, quote unquote, life. And I did so much like figuring out of myself and discovering of myself and just felt so like held I think by the whole experience and had so much fun and working with Pedro every day and having that dynamic and Craig Mazin the creator of the show and all of the cast and crew it just felt like a really positive and like exciting and like yeah brilliant experience.

I loved it. We should shout out Craig Mazin. We mentioned Neil Druckmann already. Neil Druckmann wrote the video game and then co-wrote the TV series, I guess, with Craig Mazin who'd come off Chernobyl. He'd created that amazing drama that won a ton of awards. Yes.

Which has also reminded me that one of the great things about Last of Us as well, circling back to that, is the fact that because they're fungus zombies, they've got mushrooms, beautiful, like the kinds of mushrooms you see on trees growing out of their heads. Yeah, I think they're beautiful. And that's what's so scary about it, I think, is that there's these like really... and also it's kind of their whole goal in their existence is very pure and kind of beautiful in a way. It's to expand their colony and like it's all... it's like pure instinct and they're not villains. Like they don't know what's...

Their plant life. Yeah, exactly. They don't know what's going on. They're just like fulfilling their kind of instincts and... They call them the infected. The infected. Why don't they call them fungos? I don't know. You should take that to the season three writers room though. Oh my God, three fungos are in the building.

I just thought that sounded quite good. Or fun guys. We've got three fun guys out here! Guys? That would be ambiguous. That would set up a possible plot where it's like, I thought you said fun guys. We've got three fun guys out here. Guys, that would be ambiguous. That would set up a possible plot where it's like, I thought you said fun guys. And it was a whole different show. And then suddenly they're in a firefight.

Yeah. Okay, so we're going to touch this live wire. Ready? You know, it's striking that because of the work you do, and specifically Game of Thrones and Last of Us, you're doing things with huge fan bases, often beloved by teenagers, many of them boys, I'm assuming, who feel super invested. There's a fan culture that is in some respects wonderful. They're super excited to be consumers of the product, right? They're very loyal, but sometimes they're over-invested. And I can imagine that for you as someone who like isn't coming from the fan culture,

you're a jobbing actor who, you know, especially when you're 11, you go on Game of Thrones, that was, I think, a good experience. And everyone was like, the fans loved it. But when you come into The Last of Us and there's some pushback, right? Yeah. Some fans, they're like,

they've got issues with the casting. Still now. Still now? There's's still like freaking headlines being like this brother I'm is the worst Mitch cast of all time like it's so funny because you didn't look like I Mean they they've got they've played Ellie as a on-screen character and then you come along and then obviously Neil and Craig Love you and they're like man, they've said amazing things about... Neil Druckmann said, when he saw Bella's audition tape for the film,

I didn't see Bella acting like Ellie. I saw Ellie. Yeah. And there's much more of that. Yeah. So then some fans are like, no, I didn't feel she was representing what I thought Ellie would be like. But so I

imagine, I don't want to try to, I'm not trying to tee you up to say like, oh, my life is awful, it was, it's painful. Nevertheless, I'm sure it must have been painful at times. Yeah. And you've touched and actually you've touched the electric fence by going on social media at times. social media at times. Yes. I think that season one I found it much harder in a way because I already was doubting. You weren't sure you could do it? Yeah. I was about to say I disagree with my casting, but that's not what I was trying to say. I think I was saying that I was kind of confused as to why they'd cast me, I think.

I can relate to that. Not that I was confused that you were cast but just I think that's a common Yeah, I think when you're put in an amazing given an amazing opportunity and you're like, there's several billion people in the world Yeah, are they sure they've got the right one exactly? And so I think I already felt a bit of that and then so then seeing Yeah people of the fun base some people also So then seeing, yeah, people of the fan base, some people also questioning it in like pretty harsh ways sometimes. I was like, Oh no, this is going to be bad. But then as soon as I got on, I had two weeks quarantine because it was during COVID, this is one I got over there.

Had these two weeks of thinking about what I was about to do. Also thinking about like when the show comes out and being famous and not really wanting that either, and just had these awful two weeks of living in my head basically. And then since I got on set, I literally forgot it all went away. I forgot about all of it because then it was like being on any other set. It didn't feel any different. But then as the show came out, it seems that people who had worries about it was sort of for the most part their worries sort of went away which is good and then yeah now season two it's a fear again I think the main thing for season two is that I don't look any

older mm-hmm but I was 17 when we shot the first season in 21 playing 14 playing 14 and 19 now in this season. Now 19. And I don't, I do look young for my age, but I am 21. Like it's some 21 year olds and 19 year olds do look how I look and yeah. Are you saying that there's some people saying you don't look old enough for the role? Yeah, that's like I think the main criticism. From where? How is that filtering into your purview? Oh, from Googling. I love a Google.

I deactivated my social media recently. Not because of that, just, well, maybe partly, but mostly because I just didn't, I just couldn't, it was so much pressure, I couldn't be dealing with it anymore. I just got kind of bored of it. But it was sort of social media before and now it's a good old Google search. Did you do that thing on social media of playing? It's almost like roulette, right? Where you're like, I'm going to look at the mentions and see what people have to say and seven times it's, you know, it'll be, you know, they love you. It's amazing. And then you find the horrible one.

Elina Miller Yeah, and then but then you sort of go looking for the next horrible or the one that's like slightly worse than the last one. Matthew Feeney Do you? Elina Miller Yeah, I did. But I mean, it's the sort of go looking for the next horrible or the one that's like slightly worse than the last one you saw. Yeah, I did but I mean It's the sort of thing now where I'm like, well like people being like worried and concerned and I understand but the sort of like fights that people get into on the internet about whether I'm like the right casting for it and people being like You can't do anything about it. No. So I don't know. I've sort of, I think I've compartmentalized it a bit and I've just, it doesn't mean

anything really to me anymore. I think. That's good. I think it's a kind of craziness to look for logic on the internet at times. I mean, maybe I should qualify that a bit because it would be nice to expect civility, but there are damaged vulnerable people out there who are often sometimes spewing the toxic content, you know what I mean?

Yeah, but that's also the thing of realising that there's like a human being behind all of these like sometimes really awful like comments. There's literally a human sat at home like typing that out? Like how, I don't know, I just think it's finding the humanity also behind these like keyboard warriors as they're called is also an interesting thing. It's only recently that I've accepted I am Ellie and I can do it and I'm a good actor. We sort of covered that didn't we? Yeah. But this will last for a few weeks and then I'll think I'm terrible again. That's just the process. Yes, that's an interesting one. I think for so long, I was so afraid of saying that I was a good actor, like scared of accepting that because my biggest fear growing up was that I'd be like, I was so terrified of people thinking that I was like big headed or like full of myself. I was terrified of it. But people would ask

me, it's such a kid question to ask like when people find out I'm not today, oh, you're only good. I used to be like, no, but now, cause I thought that was what, that was how you would be humble was to say like, no to say like no deny that you were good at anything and now I don't have proper imposter syndrome when it comes to acting but I think that you're supposed to as an actor I think you're supposed to go to every set and feel like you're not supposed to be here you don't belong but I do feel like I'm supposed to be there and like I belong, like always have. There are certain scenes in certain days where I'll feel like I'm absolutely terrible, but then the next, like it's momentary and I can rush like reason myself out of it and be like, no, you're fine. You just had like, that was in 90% and normally you're like in

98 and that's fine. Like it's, it's okay. But so I get still very affected if I feel like I've not done as good a job as I could have done in a day or with a scene. But that's different to me than imposter syndrome. I think I just find it so weird. Like when people call me like a celebrity or like a famous, but that's the stuff I find. But that's not even imposter syndrome. I just find it weird. I like it doesn't feel like that's me. I don't think about, I don't feel like a famous person or think about that in any way. So that's the thing that feels like

the most like it's not supposed to be me, but not of a way of like, I don't feel like I deserve, it's not even like a thing of like, I don't deserve that. It's just weird and not who I am really, even though it sort of like, I don't deserve that. It's just weird and not who I am really, even though it's sort of is, I suppose. I mean, you're a celebrity. Gross. How does that feel? Well, I don't know. But I think there's a difference between being a celebrity and being

famous. I think being famous is something that happens as a byproduct of doing great work that's publicly recognised. But I think that being a celebrity that happens as a byproduct of doing great work that's publicly recognized But I think that being a celebrity is way more of an active decision Like I'm gonna do all of these. Maybe you're not a celebrity. I don't think so. I don't class myself I don't people would see you as one. Yeah, they would I know There's my own definition by my own definitions of like celebrity and famous. I'm don't fit into the celebrity Do you have strategies for avoiding recognition? Yep.

I can sort of often tell who, like the demographic, like I'll get on the tube and I'll know, like I'll see people as I get on the tube and I'll be like, like, I'll see people as they get on the tube and I'd be like, ah, here we go. And then sure enough, then they start like chatting to each other and sort of whispering. And then it, it feels kind of weird and it's triggers the thing of like being at school and people like are talking about you, even though it's not in a negative way, but when people like laughing about you triggers that sort of feeling. I'm like, ah,

it just feels a bit uncomfortable. So there have been times, there was one time where people were like talking really loudly on the tube about it. And I was like, I need to just get out. I got off and got onto the next, like at the next stop, I look like got off and just got onto the next carriage. I've done that before. Have you avoided the paps? Like are people like, are you, are they pursuing you? Do you find people twitching in bushes? No. Because they're trying to get you in a relationship shot or something no they don't

really care about me which is great because i've not given them much to care about also i think like there's also a sort of blessing in the way that i dress and the way that i present myself it's much more masculine it's not it's they i'm not sexualized by the media in any way, really, which I'm really grateful for because I think that's also, that's protected me. That wasn't a conscious decision, that's just like how I am, but I think that's protected me in a lot of ways from some of the really like awful media attention that people in a similar position to me get. Is this my awkward segue into the following question? So you're non-binary, you find that they, them pronouns most appropriate. You were born female, but she doesn't fit for

you. What's the best way of explaining that to someone? If I phrase that correctly? No, it's a really good question. I never thought about pronouns really until season one of The Last of Us was coming out and it was a question that I had, that was suddenly I had to choose like what pronoun I wanted people to like write about me with. I was so stressed out about it because I didn't know and I didn't really care. But I found, yeah, I found the whole thing quite stressful still. There was a thing on, like, last of us this season, it was a question again, have I gone set? How do I, what should people refer to me by?

And I just said, like, my thing at the moment is like, call me how you see me. Like if I'm so aware that like I get into a taxi and the taxi guy is going to call me sheep because I look like you're, it's just a natural thing that happens in your brain. For sure. Yeah. Which I completely get. And so I've never been like strict about they them because I think I just don't really care also. I'm very comfortable in like who I am. I know how important it is for other people, but for me it's not as important right now

that it's specific. I'm like, I don't really, it doesn't really matter to me. I don't really care. There was a little bit of a fuss when you were nominated as in the female category for an acting, was it Emmy? Yeah. And some people took that as insulting to you, I guess. Is that what it was? I didn't find it insulting. But then it's like, well, they don't have a non-binary category. So which category would

you be in then? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like I was like, well, it'd be nice to get in then? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like I was like, well, it'd be nice to get an Emmy. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. And the other part is if you just have a single category for everyone, then basically a lot of women wouldn't get nominated. You know, I think there was a music award where that basically happened. You know, it's a way of ring-fencing a certain level of gender equality. Yes, I think it's so important that that's preserved as well, like the recognition for women in the industry is preserved. Like I think the gendered categories conversation is a really interesting one and I don't have the answer and I wish that there was something that was like

an easy way around it, but I think that it is really important that we have like a female category and a male category, but then like where do non-binary or gender non-conforming people fit into that? I don't know. I've thought about, I've tried to like, I've literally sat and tried to think my way to the answer and haven't got there. You didn't get there yet. Because there's a thing of like, you could do it for the character character portrayed it's like best performance in a female character but then what about when there are like non-binary characters on screen which is few and far between at the moment but then where does a non-binary person playing a

non-binary character like where does that where do they fit into? I don't know it's really complicated. What about the... I mean, I'm old, right? I sometimes, like, I still quite like the word actress. Fair. Because then female actor, male actor, I get it. And certain words are weird, like comedian or, you know, authoress. Those are stupid, weird words. But actress feels like a word that has some gravity to it. And there's a lot of people that I've worked with who call themselves

actresses and like introduce themselves as such and are really comfortable in that. I always just call myself an actor because it's, yeah, but I think that I don't think that those words have to be taken away. Like I don't think that that's, I don't know. I don't know. No, no, I get it. Gendered language, it doesn't have to be diminishing, I don't know. I don't know. I get it. Gendered language. It doesn't have to be diminishing. It doesn't have to all go away. I just find it a bit weird and a bit funny because it's like, if people call me an actress,

I have a sort of guttural like, that's not quite right instinct to it. But I think that I just don't take it too seriously in terms of like it doesn't feel like an attack on my identity getting a thing with actress it's just kind of a funny thing that doesn't really fit. I get it. I think I'm quite like laid back about it all. It sounds like it. Yeah. Do you feel I mean it brings things up in me like well do, do I feel like a man? You know, strange thing to maybe ask yourself after all these years of life. And I concluded, I think I do. Right? I think I probably do. Although I couldn't quite say why, what exactly that means. And there's certainly aspects of masculinity that as it's conventionally constructed, that I don't endorse. I wonder if, do you feel like you have a

tribe as such? Like am I right in thinking you've never really felt female? No, never. And what that would mean? This is where I've been looking into this a lot recently. I've tried to do like a lot of research from both sides. Like I've been watching a lot of like gender critical like researchers and people talking about like the opposite end of the spectrum being like being transgender doesn't exist. Right gender critical like classically well Jermaine Greer who's I've had on the podcast but people who some of them are old school feminists. Yeah and I've been trying to like on like my own journey I guess like understanding what

it actually is because there's been a lot of times I'm like, what is this even? Like, what even is this like the neurology of all the psychology of being like, non binary or like, I rejected that word for so long, by the way, because it didn't, I didn't want it to be like, trendy, I didn't want it. It was just something that I'd, it's been very obvious since I was young that I'd always, I always call myself a tomboy. But it wasn't that I was like a boyish girl. I was always like a bit of an in between leading most of the boys side to be honest. I feel like I had the more the, I grew up more as like a little boy than I did a little girl. Like I always felt more masculine or like, yeah, more on that side of the spectrum, I guess. At the moment,

I don't feel like I have access to like, femininity in the way that I would, would be not, if I was like more masculine presenting, that there's an element of being able to be more comfortable with the idea of femininity. I think when I'm trying to avoid like being perceived as a woman or like a yeah in my everyday life, the idea of me exploring femininity in any way feels like that doesn't serve my purpose, you know what I mean? So I feel a bit like sad about that sometimes but I think that I think it's also like it's a journey as always. But you said you feel sad about what?

Like the idea of femininity being something that I think is so beautiful and so but me not feeling like I have any access to it. So there's some part of you that is part but maybe feels like it would like a bit of that. But within like a masculine mold, you know how like there's feminine, more feminine guys, like the whole Harry Styles like wearing a dress, that's what it is. It's like femininity within the structure of like masculinity, I suppose. I don't't know I feel like it's now just words that don't mean no you made it you when you said Harry Styles in a dress did that make sense everyone got it okay good okay good when you look at the gender critical content yes how do you find that JK Rowling would be the other

big name I suppose yeah I find it a bit scary and there's an element of that makes me like question everything but then it's undeniable like I can't deny like how I have felt all my life and how other people that I know felt like all their lives like it is a real thing like it just is. So you're not hate watching it? No, no, no. No, I'm not. I'm watching it with a with an open mind and like with a really critical eye, like critically thinking about it all. I'm watching it to try and understand and to try and be more secure in my own beliefs and to know why I believe what I do, not just believing something because it's the thing that like a lot of people believe. Mason- Yeah, no, you're steel manning it in the sense that you're steel manning,

you know that phrase? It's the idea, you know, straw man is like an artificial sort of weak version of a counter argument. That's just a straw man of what I'm saying. But a steel man is when you construct a version of the argument that you don't agree with, just to figure out how secure you are in what you do believe. Exactly. Yeah. How's your energy? Fine. Are you good? Yeah.

This is a great conversation. I feel like I can announce that. You've said that you are emetophobic. Ha ha. Yes. Did you know that? I did. What does that mean? — Ah, emetophobia is this like, really intense fear, like phobia, of vomit and everything to do with it. If you feel a bit sick, if someone else feels sick or is sick, like it's,

the whole thing is absolutely terrifying. — You're not worried about other people throwing up? — No, I am. Well, not so, so what I was going to say is that I'm, I've gotten so much better. I did this thing called the Thrive Programme, which is written by a guy called Rob Kelly. And I did this in the Mestophobia specific one, based on literally just like research and logic and that book, like you do it and you basically understand how you've created this phobia and therefore how to like, uncreate. And I did that a couple of times, I've

sort of done it over the years and I'm like literally the other day thought I was actually going to like throw up and was, this is trigger warning by the way for anyone who's metaphobic, but thought that I was going to be, was like fine by the idea of it. I'm like, I can do it, this will be fine. So I'm basically, all of this is a long ramble to say that I feel now that I'm not a metaphobe anymore. I think that I have a slightly stronger reaction to vomit than the average person or I'm slightly more averse or afraid of it. Your own vomit. And just vomit in general.

The concept of having a stomach bug or having norovirus is enough to send like... What would happen? It's such an all-encompassing fear. It's like you can't... It's the unpredictability of like, I don't know if I've got this and when I've got it and say if I've been in contact with somebody who has got norovirus, for the next like two weeks it's a thing of like monitoring how I'm feeling, like what if I go out and go on the tube and then the symptoms come and I start to feel them well and then I throw up on the tube

and how bad is that? And then there was a time in which I couldn't leave my house up in Leicestershire because everything outside was a threat. When you were how old? Maybe like 13. Everything was a threat. You go out and you just see germs, you see sickness. Everywhere. Terrifying. Like a zombie apocalypse.

Literally. But it used to affect me on set as well. That was the source of most of my anxiety growing up. 98% of it was rooted in this emetophobia, fear, vomit. How old were you when you realised it was a thing that you had? Since I was, I can't... For as long as you can remember? For as long as I can remember. I remember in nursery, there was a kid who threw up in

the sand pit and a bit went onto my red crocs and I found it amusing. Every memory since then that I have of vomit is like scary. But I also remember every single time anyone in my life has ever felt sick or been sick. Every single... You remember it because it was a source of anxiety for you. Even now, like every single time I can like recall any anytime anyone's felt sick or been sick in my presence. But it's such a irrational fear, like, and I was so aware of what, as well of how irrational it was. And people with a messor,

very often like describe the same thing. It's like, you know, logically, there's like, it's not something to be afraid of. It's a very natural, really beneficial. It's a health response, really. Exactly. But for some reason, it's just, because of the combination of lots of different, basically lots of different like thinking styles and lots of, it's like a perfect storm, it's like all the ingredients of a chocolate cake,

you have to have like certain ingredients of thinking styles and belief systems to create the perfect storm of a metaphobia. And that's what this book, The Thrive Programme, helps you to understand all of the different components that are building it up. And then which are what? What kinds of things like catastrophic thinking, black and white thinking, all the classics, the classic. The really specific one to metaphophobia is a thing called disgust propensity, which is how disgusted you are by things, basically. Your reactions to things are like pulling fricking hairs out of a sink. If your disgust propensity is really high, the idea of that is enough to make you feel a bit queasy, like you wouldn't even want to... But if it's low, you're just like, yeah, I'll pull the hairs out of the sink. And people with emetophobia have, amongst all this other perfect storm, they have, like

the key ingredient is this disgust propensity. They have a really high disgust propensity. But it's quite intense, like emetophobia. It feels like I expressed in the past that I would rather like, I'd, like there was a time which I thought I'd rather like die than throw up. Like that's how intense it is for a lot of people. At the time like I wasn't even outside rather. Yeah, I'd literally rather not be here than have to throw up. Crazy, crazy how intense it can get.

How long was it that you weren't leaving the house for? Was it like months? Yeah, months. Not years? No, not years, months. Home educating? Yeah, the only safe place in the world was home. And then even that wasn't safe at times with in terms of germs, because then people have been like walking outside in the street and come in in shoes. And then in the emetaphobic brain, there's like vomiting bug germs on

the shoes. And then the shoes have gone through the house and then you've sat on the floor and then it's on your clothes and then you've touched your jeans and then suddenly you've got the vomiting bug germs on your hands like from all of these steps and then you accidentally like touch your hands to your face and then then then you're gonna have like a vomiting bug. It's the thought process. Wow. So intense. You've said you're neurodivergent as well. Is that related to that? I think so. I think so. Yeah. Are you on the spectrum? Yes. Good observation. I am. And I think that that is definitely a part of it. That's part of the black and white thinking or could be. Yeah, exactly. But

not all people who have like autism or on the autistic spectrum have like a metaphobia. But it is one of the things that for me that I mean, so when I got that diagnosis like so much in my life made sense and so much of my experience growing up and like it's helpful for me every day having that understanding. Was that related? By the way, we don't have to keep talking about this. Are you okay? Yeah, I like to talk about it. Was that related to your eating disorder as well? Yeah. Oh, interestingly, I want to tell you this. I watched your documentary on eating disorders that you did while I had an eating disorder. No way. Talking to anorexia. Yes,

talking to anorexia. That was it. What was that? 20? Like 2017? yeah. Yeah. I remember watching that and like, I've written a film sort of about my experience, but the story isn't mine, it's sort of fictionalised, but that documentary is in my film. Is it? Yeah. Oh my god. Milo, the character is like watching the documentary in the film and then like pauses the screen on the bit where you're looking at the charts of what weight you have to be to be admitted into hospital or what weight the people were. Like my script

reader immediately pauses the screen and looks at what number that is because that's what she wants. Anyway, yes. Isn't that interesting? Really interesting. That's really interesting and actually, I mean, I feel very flattered, but I'm also aware that it makes me think about how that's a triggering thing to show on. I'd like to think at the time I was being quite careful, like, trying not to talk about weight or not saying people looked either thin or not thin or healthy or not healthy.

Because all of that, as you know, like, one of the confusing and dangerous things about anorexia is that all the barometers of unhealth become barometers of success in the mind of the anorexic person. And so when they say like, you need to stop, you look absolutely terrible, they're like, yes, I'm succeeding. Or you've lost another amount of weight and they're like, yes. And my biggest takeaway from that was that, you know, the conventional view that it's about people trying to conform to some idealistic over-idealized beauty type, or that they're reading too many magazines or

looking at Instagram too much, that it wasn't that. It was kind of a way of keeping score in some way and also dealing with anxiety. And the need for like control. Control, exactly. Yeah, it was, yeah. I remember watching it and sort of having like mixed, I like enjoyed watching it because it was like, I felt very validated by it and about how like unwell I was.

But it was also a thing of like, it was a certain jealousy. It's sort of like this, eating disorders are so dark, can be so dark. There's certain jealousy because I'm like, I want to be those people in that hospital. Like there's an element of eating disorders, which is like, yeah, very, very much so. You wanted to be them because they were succeeding at being ill? Yeah, basically. And I was one pound away from being hospitalized. If I was like one pound less, they would have sent me to hospital. And that was always such a source of annoyance for

me. And I write about this in my script in this film that I'll be making at some point. Yeah. But I think that there's a very high correlation between people on the autistic spectrum and people have eating disorders, especially in like female brains. Interesting. Yeah, it's quite a high correlation. I think that this, it's sort of, it feels like the mental health equivalent to me of like lining up objects, which is something that I do. And a lot of autistic people do it like it feels like that.

It feels like you're it's the same sort of satisfaction of like lining things up. It's like an organisational impulse. Yeah, I think so. And the control aspect of it, like I. What kind of objects do you lining up? Whenever I go to like a hotel and I'm working or something, my like toiletries are in a perfect line. Or like I've got little like tiny like trinket things I've been given over the years and that on my shelves at home they're all like

lined up. I like I didn't know I was 18, I was during season one I got diagnosed. From consuming gender critical content you'll know that there's one theory that actually autistic girls are being transitioned. Yes. That was, yeah, one of the videos I was watching. Our being sounds loaded, but transitioning at a higher rate than is healthy because I guess the diagnosis isn't correct. There's an argument that... yeah, there's an argument that because of like the black and

white thinking of like, sometimes of autistic individuals and the idea of like you grow up in a world where you don't really feel like you fit in everywhere anyway, you don't really know why if you're not diagnosed like autistic, you don't, you just feel like the sense of not fitting in, there's a theory that then for some reason people who have this experience decide that they're in the wrong gender, like this is what people say. Because they're not comfortable sitting in ambivalence, right? Yes. It's like the shades of grey, they're like this doesn't feel right, I'll go the other

way. Yes, right. And that made me think, I was like, whoa, that's a really interesting point. But then it lost all its credit and validity to me when then this same guy who was talking about this was saying that like, and this element, if you know, like the kids, they don't feel like they fit in in school, maybe they're a bit geeky, a bit nerdy and being like transgender or non-binary is like a cool thing. Then they become this and then suddenly they're like the coolest person in the school. And that I was like, well, that's a load of bullshit. Like that's not

at all what it is. It's not attention seeking. No, I actively have like, avoided the label of non binary because I didn't, I was so afraid. Like before I'd read knew any of this, I was so not wanting to be trendy or cool, like, or seem to be that. It was just a descriptive word. It was a really helpful word to describe my experience to people. Anyway, that autism transgender theory is something that I think has been helpful for me to like question myself and question how much I'm like feeling like I need to fit into either one of the binaries because of this black and white thinking but I think that that as an argument as a whole like is quite dangerous it's good to like steal steal

steal man steal man it's good to like steal man the counter arguments yeah to keep yourself honest in a way yeah and that point about non-binary it made me think if I can bring it full circle, it makes me think about zombies. And I was joking to my team about this. As you know, I like The Last of Us. I like zombie films in general. But the human zombie binary, my dream is that one day there's a show where there's almost like there's some intermediate stage or that zombies are somehow recoverable. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Because what we haven't seen, because so much of a zombie culture is to do with, oh, we have a consequence free way of killing a lot of people because they're just zombies. So we don't have to care about them. And the zombies always the other, like there's never a nice zombie, you know, like there's never a nice orc. I'm going to the Lord of the Rings now. We're fine, we can just kill them en masse. But the minute they start to exhibit positive qualities, the moral dimensions of it become more interesting. Yeah, definitely. So that's my pitch. Craig and Neil, if you're listening.

They probably are. They might be. Yeah, we, if you're listening... They probably are. Do you think they might be? Yeah, we'll get you in the writers' room. Get me in the writers' room? I don't think it'll fit in the Last of Us universe. I mean, I think of any zombie universe. Once you're a fungus, it's hard to come back from that. I don't think... But finding the humanity within the fungus is something that you definitely could do. That'll be the challenge. Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that. And just to address the elephant in the room,

it's not that I hate Game of Thrones. It's more that I've not really watched it and I've decided to have fun with that. And maybe also that I do love or used to love Lord of the Rings. Read that twice when I was a kid. I liked those movies. And so maybe I do have a bit of a reaction to something that's sort of taking the Lord of the Rings and then filling it with sort of sex and cleavage. It feels a bit weird. So maybe I do hate it. Okay, let's work with that. And maybe you need to deal with that. Maybe you need to sit in the discomfort that you feel with me not liking your favourite show. Maybe you need to go fuck yourself. Think about that. I think part of it is the RR thing. Like George RR Martin. Come on man. What are you trying to do? You just think as JRR Tolkien had two R's and that you want to be in the club?

Stop it. That is childish. Okay, maybe this is my problem. And to be clear, The Last of Us is excellent. I think I made that pretty clear in the chat. I haven't seen at time of recording the rest of the second season, but I'm looking forward to it. Craig Mazin and Neil Druckmann, if you're intrigued by the non-binary zombie's idea, please reach out.

I am happy to take your call. I think you'll find my terms very reasonable. I'd like to see child orcs as well. Is that in the chat? I'd like to see orcs humanize the orcs. Maybe that's my bumper sticker humanize the orcs Because it's so convenient when you dehumanize the enemy then you can kill them willy-nilly And um, what if they have feelings we know they have restaurants because one of them says looks like meats back on the menu boys Right if they have restaurants, they must be capable of a fairly high level of civilisation. That's not my apesu. I once read that on Twitter. Someone pointed out, like, how can orcs know about menus? Right? My point is it's very convenient to imagine

that other living creatures have no worth. But isn't it more interesting, more dramatically, morally interesting to try and imbue some degree of worth, humanity, just sort of value onto what we consider the other, even if it's a zombie with a fungus growing out of its head. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify have a website for information and resources, visit spotify.com slash resources. And a reminder that if you're listening to the podcast, rather than watching it, you can watch some clips of the episodes over on my YouTube channel, at Louis Theroux, as well as much else besides.

Kind of, it's not that much. But it's all good stuff. I'm trying to close in on Mr Beast. I think we're up around at least a couple of thousand subs. We just need another 200 million. Ummm. That's it for today, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Maisie Williams, the production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira.

This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.