The Louis Theroux Podcast - S5 EP5: Little Simz discusses her new album, growing up with adopted siblings, and working with Drake

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Louis is joined in the studio by Mercury Prize-winning rapper and actress, Little Simz. The pair discuss the inspiration behind her new album Lotus, growing up with adopted siblings and working with Drake on Top Boy. Prepare for awkward pauses and an unlikely rap collaboration.  Warnings: Strong language, as well as some adult themes.   Links/Attachments:    Album: 'Sometimes I Might Be Introvert’, Little Simz (2021)  https://open.spotify.com/album/0DBoWQ52XUHtrZQdfAqOVj     Song: ‘Venom’, Little Simz (2019)  https://open.spotify.com/album/3h7qY0r0PNgNUS838NqgGv    Song: ‘WE PRAY', Coldplay, Little Simz, Burna Boy, Elyanna & TINI (2024)  https://open.spotify.com/track/7xrEnNo99wrmIs8ZK3RZMK     TV Show: ‘Top Boy’ (2011- 2023) - Channel 4 / Netflix   https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80217669     Album: ‘Lotus’, Little Simz (2025)  https://open.spotify.com/prerelease/4HGLG9dQard8ZMoxNlwBhl     Album: ‘NO THANK YOU’, Little Simz (2022)  https://open.spotify.com/album/57263zG8Md6XZ9lBUPPYCm     EP: ‘Drop 7’, Little Simz (2024)  https://open.spotify.com/album/2jK2rbbnrzsId5WWSc67HP     ‘Little Simz dropping bars at 11 years old on 1Xtra’ - BBC Radio 1 Xtra  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr_9p2yNfBQ    Song: ‘Gorilla’, Little Simz (2022)  https://open.spotify.com/track/0pJO1tc1GpnxFyQp6Zp82r     Song: ‘The Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)’, Missy Elliott (1997)  https://open.spotify.com/track/2WRzpLD8qDRrxMXc63E5WJ    Music Video: ‘The Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)’, Missy Elliott (2009)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHcyJPTTn9w    Song: 'Work It’, Missy Elliott (2002)  https://open.spotify.com/track/3jagJCUbdqhDSPuxP8cAqF     Song: ‘Thief’, Little Simz (2025)  https://open.spotify.com/prerelease/4HGLG9dQard8ZMoxNlwBhl     Song: ‘Hollow’, Little Simz (2025)  https://open.spotify.com/prerelease/4HGLG9dQard8ZMoxNlwBhl    Song: ‘Not Like Us’, Kendrick Lamar (2024)  https://open.spotify.com/track/6AI3ezQ4o3HUoP6Dhudph3     Song: 'I Love You, I Hate You’, Little Simz (2021)  https://open.spotify.com/track/6XQPPbvRXZvWSUDag8jyEj     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, it's me, Louis Theroux, and welcome to my podcast. It's called the Louis Theroux podcast because it's my podcast and I'm Louis Theroux. Today I'm speaking to Mercury Prize winning rapper and artist, Symbiato Adjikawu, better known as Little Sims. After the release of her highly acclaimed first three albums, Sims rose to prominence with the release of her 2021 album, Sometimes I Might Be Introvert, for which she won the 2022 Mercury Prize and a MOBO and BRIT Award. Across her catalogue of music, Little Sims streams stand at over one billion. You might be familiar with her viral hit Venom, it was big on TikTok, or her feature on Coldplay's

We Pray, which she performed with them at Glastonbury last year. Outside of music, Sims has started the Netflix revival of Top Boy. You surely have seen that, based on a Hackney housing estate follows the lives of young people struggling and two men in particular who are trying to get ahead in the drugs and gang world. Sims plays the girlfriend of one of the main drug lords. We recorded this chat in February earlier this year ahead of the release of her latest album Lotus. Which is excellent by the way. Do check it out. I met her once before at Skepta's fashion show. That was also where I met Mia Khalifa. It was like a Louis Theroux podcast

turkey shoot. I was just picking up guests willy-nilly. That's an odd phrase isn't it? A warning, there's a bit of strong language in the episode, sorry about that. That's all coming up. Stay tuned. So this is the first album in two years. Is it? Isn't it? What? No, thank you. Help me out.

2020. I'm going to have to look at my research. To end of 2022. We're at the beginning of 2025 now. Yeah. Um, what's that all about? What's that all about? Oh man, the creative process, Louis, man, is long.

Yes. I also needed a break. I think it was like pretty full on past few years. So I just needed a sec to just do life really and rediscover kind of where I want to go musically and what I want to talk about. So yeah I think two years is a stretch but I put out an EP in that gap which was more like leaning into the electronic dance world, which I just, I've always wanted to make a project like that. So it just felt fitting to, to try and

explore that for that EP. But yeah, now back with another full-length. What's your, what's your process? Cause there's the themes, I want to talk about some of the themes of your music generally, of your artistry, but I'm also curious about process. You're obviously a brilliant lyricist and your level of introspection, your ability to dig deep emotionally and actually your honesty. Like I get that, and maybe it's the obverse of not wanting to talk that much about personal stuff IRL. The obverse of that is that you are like an open book in the lyrics, like it's all there. You talk about the most personal stuff about a fraught relationship that you have with your father, there's stuff about your brother, there's stuff about loss, tragedy, all of

that. That you put work into the lyrics, that they're written. Yeah, I write them down after I figured out like a cadence, like how I want to sit on the beat or instrument or, you know, whatever. If even if it's chords, like sometimes I'll just kind of freestyle voice note a flow that I have and then if that feels like fitting with what the music's doing, I'll then write my lyrics to that. But it varies, it changes. Sometimes I'll just have words that I've written. I'm always

right. I like journaling because I can... Sometimes life moves so fast and so it's useful for me to document and to write things down and yeah so I can have things to like refer to. You collaborate quite closely with a producer called Inflow, is that right? I did yeah. You did on this album. I didn't on this album. Who did you work with musically on this one? A producer called Miles Clinton James, who I've known for some time, really, really talented

musician and producer. We kind of just locked in. I always like working with people that isn't afraid to just show up at the studio and be like, cool, we can go any direction. It's not going to be, we're not doing a strictly hip hop song with crazy break beats or whatnot. Or we, you know, some days I'm like, let's just try something where we can lean into the orchestral space or let's try something that feels quite bossing over you. And I felt Miles was just super, super open and happy to go in any direction and

yeah let me lead as well. What I picked up was that coming into it you were filled with self-doubt. You talk about feeling like you've got writer's block that this isn't, um, maybe the path for you anymore. I was lonely making an album. I attempted it four times, lost my confidence and you wouldn't believe why sitting in the studio with my head in my hands thinking, what am I to do with this music? I can't write. Then later on you say team fallen apart and I'm caught in the crossfire.

What was going on? Just a lot of change. It was a very transitional period in life. I kind of wish I lent on my family. Like I feel, you know, my family, I love them so much. They're so important to me. Your mum and your three siblings, basically? Yes, yes. Obviously that's my family of origin. They have known me since I've come out of the womb. Right, because you're the youngest.

I'm the youngest, yeah. And so because I'm the baby in my family, like I kind of wanted to subconsciously prove that, no, I've got, I can stand on my own. I can figure things out. I can make my own decisions. It's that and the third, because it's very protective. So I've always had this like, you know, like I just, I just go and do my thing. I'll travel what not. And then in moments like that, when I listened to that song, it's like, I wish I didn't

feel like I had to be strong all the time or make like I've got it all figured and covered. So yeah, I think that song Lonely was like, you know, feeling like that and that in the creative realm as well, having to essentially make a record that I kind of I'm struggling to believe in, which is weird because I've always had like, I've always been a confident kid, I've always believed in myself. So the minute I'm like plagued with self doubt, I'm like, Whoa, this is mad. Like I don't, I don't know how to deal with this. I don't know if this is the path I should be continuing. It's very sad to me, like, considering this is, yeah,

I've done this my whole life, you know? So, yeah. Because, yeah, you also say something about, I don't even know who I'm meant to be anymore. Yeah. Why would that be? Is it to do with the marketplace of trying to cater to what you feel the industry or the audience wants you to be?

No, I've never really catered to like what anyone wants me to be. I think I've always just been me and I've always just been myself. But I think I do definitely put a lot of pressure or have done a lot of pressure on myself to be the best. And I think again, going back from when I was younger, kind of being in a circle of boys in a cipher and like trying to get my verse in and then knowing that when it's my time to drop my 16 bar, it has to be the best because I'm the only girl in the scenario. When you were coming up, you mean?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just a lot of pressure and a lot of weight of having to always want to cut through. Maybe that's part of your process is trying to dig deep. You know what I mean? Like I'm maybe over analysing it. Because it obviously sounds like a big existential statement. I don't even know who I'm meant to be anymore. But perhaps that's just part of how you get the best out of yourself. Is it? Is it that simple? In terms of how you came up, I mean, there's stuff on the on YouTube

and on the internet of you rapping when you're like 11 years old, maybe? Yeah. And it was played on Radio One Extra. I was trying to figure out what the occasion was. My sister just took me there and she's like, yeah, like it's what we're doing today. You got some lyrics ready, kind of just went and just done my thing.

But I remember being ready. Like I didn't, I don't, I wasn't nervous. I wasn't, it just always felt like, yeah, like I meant to do this. She took you where? To a studio somewhere? To the BBC where we'd done that freestyle. It was me and a singer called Kyra and then Heartless Crew. And yeah, I just came lit up. Can you remember the bars? My real name is Simby, my tag name is Sims.

Don't watch me in a way I'm rocking my Tims. 10 years from now I'll be rolling in my Ben Sim Simmer. Who got the key to my don't get? Carry the waste, not all about rims. Not about showing off with your bling bling. Not about bomb threats and victim, because it's all about your mind and the power of the pen. Look, I'm Little Sims and I set trends don't like liars I hate fake

friends don't like people that hate on Sims but I do like jollof rice on the weekends That's amazing. And then you reference that on what on Gorilla? Yeah. Sim Simmer who got the keys to My Blood Club Bimmer. Right? Was that coming full circle in a way? Yeah, for sure. How old were you when you started writing?

Nine. Really? Who were you inspired by? Missy Elliott. Really? Yeah. So, Beep Beep, Who got the keys to the Jeep? Right? Is that what you were referencing partly in Sim Simmer? Or not? No. What was it about her? I just thought she was cool. Like I thought she always had the flyest like Adidas tracksuits on.

She had the coolest dancers in her videos. Her videos are always so out of the box and so visual like to the point where if I say a song title, my brain just will picture the video, you know, so like powerful what she'd done with visual music, the perfect blend. And I just, it just felt like she was herself and that really stuck and that resonated with me like, yeah, because I was quite the tomboyish type. And so I didn't really see anyone else at the time that felt like, oh, if you're like that, it can work and you can still, you know, do amazing things in this life and blow whatever, just being yourself. So yeah, I was heavily inspired by Missy for

sure. It was so distinctive. There was that fisheye lens. I don't know which video it was. Do you remember the one? Yeah, pretty sure. It was so distinctive. There was that fisheye lens. I don't know which video it was. Do you remember the one? Yeah. Pretty sure that was one. Where she's sort of popping. I think it might be one. Super duper fly. Where she's in the black.

I don't know. She looks like a space alien. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's doing funny body popping moves. Is she wearing a big puffer jacket? Yeah. And what is that? Bada bang, bang, boogal, bada, boogal. Do you know the one where it sounds like she's speaking backwards?

Yeah, work it. That is work it. Yeah, yeah. It's all coming back to me. It was she's speaking backwards? Yeah, work it. That is work it. Yeah, yeah. It's all coming back to me. It's a long time ago. Yeah, come on. How did you do it? Yeah, so I think you're saying yeah, come on.

That's so bad. Okay, and she wasn't selling sexuality, right? She was selling something else, like vision. For sure. I enjoy rap as a whole. One of my favourite like lyricists of all time is Nas. And I remember my brother playing me Nas for the first time. And I was young as well and I didn't understand like the real depth of what he was talking about, but I just knew this guy is mad smart and whatever he's saying, my brother is, I've never seen him connect so deeply to music the way he's connecting with Nas and that, I don't know, done something to

me at a young age like, wow, like this is really hitting. And then as I got older and I start deciphering his lyrics and taking him in, it's like, okay, I understand. Like what you're saying and how you're storytelling and how you're literally just speaking your experiences in your life. Lauryn Hill was someone that was amazing at that as well, but I've known, okay, that's the kind of artist

I want to be, you know? There was loads at the time. There was like Buster Rhymes. He had a similar- Moolikris. Yeah, that was the era of whatever, it was almost being a cartoon character. Yeah, yeah.

It's cool, man. Have you met those people? Yeah, I've met Buster. I've spoken to Buster loads of times, yeah. He's really cool, yeah. It's cool, man. Have you met those people? Yeah, I've met Buster. I've spoken to Buster loads of times, yeah. What's that? I mean, he's... I think he's phenomenal. Like, his rapping. Mm-hmm. Is he a nice guy?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really nice. The first time I spoke to him, I think I was in Jamaica, like, he hit me up. Was he a fan? And, yeah. Yeah, he was just showing... Showing mad love, like, just super nice, super respectful, like just nice guy. And we have spoken about doing, we've actually worked some stuff.

Have you? Yeah. Did you get in the studio? We haven't properly got in the studio, studio, but we've, yeah, just back and forth been sending each other ideas. Remotely, really sending each other what? Beats and lyrics? Beats, lyrics, verses, like little hook ideas, like, you know, just throw and paint at the wall, really.

He spits so fast. Yeah, he's quick with it. He used to be a lifeguard in Morecambe. Really? In the north of England. Did you know that? I didn't. That's one of those like pub quiz facts. I must have some British family and obviously grew up

in America and then would have spent maybe a year or a summer in the north of England and he was a lifeguard. Crazy. Strange. Imagine having your life set, you're struggling out swimming in the breakers and then you're like, oh no, this is it. I can't manage. I'm dying. And then Buster Rimes swam up and saved your life. That'd be quite surreal, I would have thought. Insane. I've read in the past that you don't even think of yourself as an MC necessarily. Or at least that's just, basically there was an interview with Cathy Newman where she called you a female MC and you're like, that's not really a label I identify with.

I shut it down. Yeah. I shut it down. Yeah. You did shut it down. Was that the female part or the emcee part? Maybe both. It's just like you get, get wound up like it's not. It just feels a bit lazy. And I understand like sometimes it's the quickest and easiest way to just identify what someone is, but it just never really sat well with me, that title. I get it. I think I'm just a notice, you know?

And that's it. Can I make things really awkward? Go on. So on the album, Yeah. I mean, listen to it quite closely? The first track is called Thief and you are shouting someone out. That's not the term. You are basically identifying someone who's misused you. There's people I've known my whole life come in like the devil in disguise. Then you say your company's going down the hill. Thank God. I never signed no deal.

You took financial exploitation, emotional exploitation. And then in hollow later on, you talk about someone daylight robbery of my soul. My world got smaller. Couldn't believe it was somebody I know smooth talker. You told me be wary of the sharks and then you became one. What can anybody truly expect from a day one? It's real shit. That is real shit. Someone did you dirty. Yeah, people do that in life though, don't they? Well, hopefully not often. Like, yeah. Hopefully not often. Yeah, there are people who, yeah, you're people... Definitely. People let you down. You know what I mean? People disappoint you and hurt you. Definitely. And abuse you.

Yeah, for sure. And thankfully, it didn't break me. Could have. But I came out stronger. Thankfully, I've been blessed with a place to channel everything I feel. So I just try to, I try to be honest. And I think it's, yeah, the album definitely touches on a lot of raw subjects, but I didn't want it to feel like dark and depressing or like, I still feel there's light, I still feel there's like moments

of feeling uplifted and that breakthrough which is essentially kind of what a lotus is like it's like you know this is a flower that thrives in muddy waters that once it pierces through it becomes this beautiful thing and that is you know regardless of what you've done or where you come from or what you've been through or who's hurt you you can still use that to channel something beautiful you know so I just try to use my music as a space to like allow me to thrive in muddy waters. And it doesn't feel, like you said, it doesn't feel dark or depressing, it feels angry at times.

Yeah, for sure. It's raw emotion. It's raw emotion. Yeah. I get the sense that music for you is often a way of processing something. Yeah. Trauma, grief. Does that make sense?

Does that resonate with you? 100%. I really struggle with or have, I think it's gotten better since I've started therapy and I've confronted this issue I have with talking because I've always been a listener and yeah, I don't really say too much. Like I've never been loudest in the room. Like it's just not my personality. And so it was always easier for me to process things by writing stuff. Even if when I was younger,

I wanted to ask my mom something like a bit uncomfortable, difficult, I'd write her a letter and like give it to her like that. Just so I didn't want to get in front of her and then freeze and then not be able to say what I wanted to say. And then, you know, so I just write it down and like that, just so I don't want to get in front of her and then freeze and then not be able to say what I wanted to say. So I just write it down and like, cool, you can read it. It's just always been easier for me to process like that and get what I truly want to say out.

But now I think I'm getting a lot better at just, yeah, saying how I feel on the spot if something bothers me or if I feel away about something. It's still hard. I think it's hard for a lot of people, but yeah, it's a process, isn't it? Are you good at that? I'm somewhere in the middle. I kind of toggle between performance mode, party manners where I'll sort of show up and do my best to be funny and amuse people. And then I can also feel at times like, I struggle with confrontation,

sometimes articulating my feelings. Do you think that is depending on like who it is you're speaking to or is that like? I like listening. Like I find speaking quite draining. Really? Yeah. And in my relationships. You really do it.

Oh, thank you. In my relationships I would prefer, I mean, the reason I do my job, which is obviously interviewing people is because genuinely I'm curious about people and I find it quite relaxing. Really? Yeah, to hear someone sort of downloading whatever they are dealing with.

I think, I wonder if it's because we're both younger, you're youngest of four, I'm younger of two. And I feel like there's almost like you're the one in the back of the car who's not speaking. Just listening to it all going on around you. That becomes quite a comfortable role. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Watching it all happen on around you. That becomes quite a comfortable role. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Watching it all happen. Yeah, that's so true.

And feeling a bit like a plus one, feeling a bit like you're not the main event, you're not the headliner. You are- You're being cool with that. Yeah, I'm fine with it, I enjoy it. I enjoy it and just sort of thinking, I'm definitely not what this situation is about

and I'm just gonna see what happens. But then a little part of me was also supposed to be the court jester, like I was supposed to be the funny one as well, but I was kind of, that was a bonus. But I think introvert is a big word for you, isn't it? In terms of, obviously you have your album, sometimes I might be introvert, and the feeling of, I think what you're talking about, right?

It's the feeling of introversion, yeah. The feeling of not necessarily wanting to share. Yeah. Right. Yeah, for sure. Um, so I said I was going to make it awkward. Are we going to put the name out there of the person being addressed in Thief? It sounds like it's someone in the industry. I think the album is my most personal, yeah. And the album that probably was for sure the hardest for me to make on so many levels because I knew if I'm going to take it, I'm going to take it there and I'm going to have to touch on things that are going to be uncomfortable and that are going to be hard to talk about as well, because it's a lot of like, it's essentially kind

of feels like dealing with grief, you know, in the eyes of everyone. And being so inviting to letting people in on that process and how that feels and how I'm dealing with it. And like you said, there's a lot of anger. There's a lot of... Will you say grief? Do you mean the grief of... because we were speaking about what I think, I get the sense we're probably not going to unpick thief, like the specifics of who it's about. It's probably just as well. But is it the feeling of grief at feeling like people you collaborated with or friends of yours that you knew from early on weren't the friends that you needed them to be or is there other grief

that you're talking about? Just the ending, just something coming to an end. What was coming to an end? Sad. Well I'm moving on like and other people are moving on you know what I mean? It's like a team breaking up. A team breaking up, a separation, a parting of that, you know, that's, this is closed, you know, there's so much investment into that friendship or whatever it is, whether it's working on music or, you know, which that legacy will always be there and that will always continue. But it's just this next phase, this next chapter, it's no longer. And that hurts, you know? I'm not like made of like stone or something. Like

I feel a lot and I feel it's hard to like lose people and it's sad. But I always, I'm always going to have my music and that's what I'm so grateful for. Like I'm always going to have my music and that's what I'm so grateful for. Like I'm always going to have this thing, even though it was so challenging to make this record and as I was saying, big up- Emotionally. Emotionally, yeah. And big up Miles because he really like helped me overcome a doubt that I just felt like, I don't know how I'm going to, I might be wasting your time here mate. I'll be honest. You know? Yeah, for sure. You know, I can't look at you and

say by the end of this, we're definitely going to have an album that's going to be wicked. You know, I don't feel that I'm not feeling it at all, but I'm going to show up every day. Every day I'm going to come here and I'm going to give my best. And if you're just patient with me, I'll do what I can. And that's with all the collaborators. I just have to be honest with everyone. I don't know what you think you're stepping into, but I don't feel like I've got it right now. Whatever it is that you think I've got, I definitely don't feel like I've got that. So I haven't got it as in I don't have literally just the words or I don't have the sort of the

mental bandwidth or I don't I mean because you've got the intention right? Yeah but I feel like I ain't got the source like I ain't got the recipe to make this thing. I don't know what version of Sims you're gonna get. Yeah it's tough one. When did you start with the therapy? Um it's been a year When did you start with the therapy? It's been a year. Yeah. That can help. One other thing in terms of processing trauma. I mean, what came up in the notes was that a friend of yours who was a fashion model

had been stabbed in Shepherd's Bush and killed. He was actually killed, wasn't he? Yeah. And that's referenced in some of your lyrics, I think. What was his name? Harry Uzoca. And he was a young fashion model?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the loveliest boy, like, just Harry was literally one of 10 people at my shows, you know, when no one knew who I would like, just always had championed me, always believed in me, always like, anytime we go and meet new people, he's like, trust me, Sims is next, like this is, and I'll be like, hurry, like stop, like just all shy and like, you know, but he, yeah, always, always had my back. So that was definitely, yeah, super hard and tough to, to deal with process. Still miss him very dearly. But yeah, when I think about it, I just think, yeah, he will definitely be so proud of, of everything that's happening now and rest in peace Harry. Yeah. Having brought that up, it's such a sad thing to deal with. So I'm going to try and

put a veil over that. And I want to talk about probably your biggest track, Venom. It's 141 million on YouTube. Is it? Yeah. Why did that one YouTube. Is it? Yeah. Why did that one blow up? Why? Yeah. I don't know. My guess is like, never giving credit where it's due, you don't like

pussy in power, maybe that lion. Right. That's exactly right. It's a woman's world, so to speak. Pussy, you sour, never giving credit where it's due because you don't like pussy in power. It's quite an image. You're funny man.

What about, it says N words, excuse my French, pussy licking batty and shit. Can you unpack that line? I am dead. Okay. It goes moving scatty. Okay. So I want to see dead bodies. Probably not. They ain't rolling with no automatic clips moving scatty all erratic and shit and pussy licking batty and shit. Just like kissing us basically. Right. Just like they're just moving weird. Like you're not saying they're batty. No I'm not saying that I'm saying I'm definitely not saying that I'm saying like yeah just just kissing ass like just like sucking

up. Right. Did it blow up on TikTok? I think it done alright, yeah. It's crazy what the algorithm can do. Mm-hmm. Do you make a lot of money from streams or is most of your income from doing shows or maybe brand deals and fashion stuff? I think I'm a pretty well-rounded... It's a bit of everything....individual. Yeah. Yeah, man,'m all right, man. We're at Spotify, you know, we're at Spotify HQ So I heard you can't talk shit about them, but people say that in the industry Have you heard this like oh artists some artists feel they're not getting enough. Yeah I mean everyone's not getting enough of anything, you know, no getting too much. Oh, well then there you go is not getting enough of anything you know no one getting too much oh well then there you go

there you have it now we solved the problem that was a joke some people are getting too yeah maybe some people are getting too much but the point is like everyone every it's human nature to want more like there's like yeah fair enough there's you're not shut okay i get it you're not gonna throw shade at spotify i'm not throwing shade at anyone. I come on humble, peace and love vibes, you know. Your company going down the hill, thank God I never signed no deal. Damn. Whose company? Whose company, Louie? Top Boy.

Yeah. Kano brought you in for the audition. Yeah. Is that true? Yeah. You knew him just from the London music scene? I met Kane through my first manager and he just off-rip was just showing love and kind of anything I needed if it was advice, which was super

nice because at the time as well I didn't, I felt like when you're young and up and coming it's like you have so many like questions and things you want to ask and things you want to know and but you don't really know who to turn to or who to ask or who to reach out to or that fear of like not hearing but whatever it is, you know. So Kano was one of the first people that made his like presence very apparent in my career, my life. I was like, yo, I've got you anything you need, you know. So yeah, just from that point, he's just always been hailing me up and showing mad love and having my back for sure.

So he'd been on the Channel 4 seasons of Top Boy, right? And then did you come on board for the Netflix versions? Where they kind of, it went global and Drake got involved. I don't think Drake was there that much, was he? He came to the read through. Did he? Yeah. And premier.

So are you tight with Drake? No. It's like you've got a lyric in your head, don't you want to say, Louie? What did you think about Not Like Us, the Kendrick track? It's a banger. It won five Grammys. Yeah, it's mad. Is it though? Is it mad? It's banger and it's Kendrick and he's really good.

Kendrick for my older fans, Kendrick Lamar, American rap icon, incredible artist. He won a Pulitzer Prize for music, which is extraordinary because until then they'd only given them to like classical and jazz, I think. Like one of the first, certainly the first hip hop, maybe the first, you know, in the sense of pop or rock, that whole genre of popular music that he won a Pulitzer, like he was the first one. But um... Groundbreaking. Groundbreaking artist. I'm not a huge, like, I mean, I like a lot of rap and hip, I'm not a huge Drake fan. Nevertheless, my confession is, I felt a bit sorry for him. Like the idea

of like a diss track, right, that calls you a paedophile, not just becoming a global sensation, but then winning five Grammys. There was part of me thinking like, wow, that is a banger and that's amazing that it's being recognised. And then there was another part of me thinking like, must be weird if you're Drake, like a song that literally calls you a paedophile is becoming the most garlanded song of the year. People in Radio Land know your radios are not malfunctioning. We're just sitting here in silence. Yeah. I love it. There's so much air in this podcast. It's like Swiss cheese. I'm not afraid of silence. Me, by the way, neither am I. I'm practically famous for it. It's going

to be like Swiss cheese. It's like a big bar of Aero. The bubbles are what makes it delicious. We were talking about Kano and actually was going to lead into Top Boy. People are just going to want to talk about Top Boy because it's Top Boy and it was such a great series. And it felt like it was bringing aspects of British culture to a global audience. Unapologetically British, like kind of, you know, in the terms of the slang and the lifestyle that it depicted. I got the sense sometimes that it was maybe a difficult set to be on, like quite a bit of drama, but maybe not. In what sense? Personalities, you know, because you've got Netflix, who've got what they want it to be.

You've got Kane and Ashley, who've got a vision for what they want it to be. You've got Ronan Bennett, who is the showrunner, who's obviously a white Irish guy, but who also kind of created the concept. So he's got his vision. Plus, big dramas like that where there's pressure and a lot of people, they always involve a bit of, you know, emotional politics. Everyone was just super passionate about the show

because we understood the weight of it and how much it meant to people so it's like we want to Yeah, we want to get it right, you know And yeah, some people have is even though it's very real it's still art the end of the day and it's still like fiction so people have their ways of wanting to tell things or None of it's bad or wrong. It's just different, you know, but I think Nothing amazing can be produced

in like an easy, just very relaxed chill. It takes sometimes bumping of heads or whatever it is to get the best results. So yeah, and that's what we was able to do. There's a reason why it worked on Channel 4 and it got brought back and it done what it done on Netflix, you know? Yeah, creative tension. It's not always, I don't think it's absolutely like necessary, but it's often the case and when lots of people are invested, there's a degree of creative tension.

Yeah, it gets at that sometimes. Are you going to do more acting? Yeah. Have you got stuff lined up? Yeah. Go on. Go on. Me go on? That was a conversational dead end. Can we talk about, can we talk about coming up? Yeah. Your mum is of Nigerian heritage. You grew up North London, right? You've talked about, and this surprised me, like in school maybe you weren't the best, like school wasn't necessarily

getting the best out of you. And given how literate and how sort of eloquent your writing is, yeah, I thought, wow, that's interesting. What do you suppose wasn't quite clicking for you? In school? Yeah. I don't know, maybe just like the pace and the style of absorbing information and learning. Yeah, I'm not textbook like that. You're not- I'm very visual. But I had my youth center where I felt like I could learn

But I had my youth centre where I felt like I could learn and hone in on things that I had direct interest in and was like my responsibility. I didn't have to go to youth club. I made the decision to go after school. It was like my first level of independence. Like I'm taking myself somewhere to hone in on something that I truly enjoy and devote myself to it and see what I get out of it. So yeah, very grateful I had that space as well. What would you do at the youth club? What was going on down there? Dance, yeah, acting classes, music, production, sports, I like sports, I'm very into sports

even till this day. And that felt like what, an outlet for you, a place for you to develop interests? Exactly. In the things that felt like this, I could naturally go into this and see myself doing this as a career, you know. Did you have a teacher who particular interest in you, someone who you felt guided you or saw something in you that was helpful? Yeah, a lady called Natalie Solomon who used to teach me dance, who I actually still work with today. Really? It's crazy, yeah.

You know, them people that just see something in you and like, you don't even really see it in yourself. And they just like, yeah, just do their best to support you and in that field and keep building you up. And yeah, that was Natalie for sure. Yeah man, big up Natalie. It's amazing isn't it that I often think that whatever success I've had has really been down, yes okay there's some hard work but mainly someone at a certain point encouraged me or felt like they saw something in me that I didn't necessarily see in myself.

For sure. I think that's very, it's sort of overlooked how important, like other people's belief in you. Do you feel like you're a confident person? Like, how early on did you fix on to the idea of being an artist? When I was like 14, I think, and that was like, all right, I'm gonna do this, man. I'm gonna do this. And that was, even at school, like just, everyone kind of knew me as like the girl who rapped.

Like I was, yeah, doing, in form times or whatever, was like, yeah. But it took a lot of hard work, like you said, and really having to try and cut through as a young woman in that space, you know, for my voice to be heard and felt. What did your mum do? Foster carer.

She was a foster carer. So there were sort of like kids, what, coming and going basically. How long would they typically stay for? They usually stay till they're 18. Do they? Yeah. And then they go off and do their own thing. So it's not temporary placements?

No, it'll be years. But some of them can't, like, some of them just, you know, too much. Don't work out. Yeah, don't work out too much. Yeah, don't work out. Like it's just not. Yeah, that must have been a lot. Yeah, it was in the beginning, being like the youngest in that. How old were you when it first happened? I think I was 12 or 13. Yeah.

12 or 13. Yeah. But over the years, like as time went on, I started to see how important like family was, you know, because some of these kids like literally don't have a set up like me, come from really dysfunctional homes. And it just, I don't know, just made me look at my own life. I think, well, I'm actually mad blessed, mad fortunate. And it's actually also incredible that my mum is opening up her home to give more love and care and attention to other children that don't have that, you know.

So how many kids would be in the house at any particular time? It would be no more than two. Two foster kids? Yeah. Plus you and the three siblings? No, they had moved out. They'd moved on? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did they become like siblings or was it something different? Yeah, they become like siblings for sure. Even after they move out, it's like they will still call my mum. Come back for Christmases. It's still very much like they're still a part of my family, you know. How connected to your Nigerian heritage are you in general and how much were you growing up? Were you making trips over there at all? Yeah, my mum took me back a few times. I think I feel super connected, but there's so much more still that I want to dive into and explore

and spend more time in Nigeria. But my mum's always like, just teach me about different stuff. But I'm also a quiz at person. Like I ask her a lot of questions about even just her upbringing and what life was like in Lagos. So yeah, what life was like for her and how she came to London and what life was like there and not knowing English. So her story is really, really interesting. I don't know, it's mad when you talk to your parents. It's like you had a whole life before me. Like who were you, you know, before like you was a parent.

And so, um, that makes me feel super connected as well. But she talks to me in Yoruba. Does she? Do you, so you speak Yoruba? I mean, a bit, but I can understand every word. How do you say hello? A castle. A castle. Nice. How do you say I'd like some egousi soup please? Next question. You thought about it and then you backed out. Yeah. But if I said that you'd understand it.

Yeah, if you said it you're right, I understand it. How old was she when she came over? 25. Was she married? Came over with your dad? Your dad and mum split when you were about 11? Are you alright talking about this? How's your energy? Are you alright? Yeah, I'm cool. You talk about, there's a song, it's called I Love You, I Hate You, is it? Yeah.

Is that the one where you talk about your feelings about your dad? You made a promise to God to be there for your kids. You made a promise to give them a life you didn't live. My ego won't fully allow me to say that I miss you, a woman who hasn't confronted all her daddy issues. Then you said, never thought my parent would give me my first heartbreak. break? Hmm, did say that. What do you want to say about that? Yes, literally that. Like I didn't think that would be the first time a heart got broken. You don't expect it to be from your parent, you know? And yeah, what that does and how that seeps into your adult life and all that shit, you know, it's like, yeah.

What was the heartbreak? Just him leaving? It's like abandonment, isn't it? Like you just keep it moving. No check-in, no, you're just out, you know. You're just bailed. Yeah, especially when like you feel... I loved my dad when I was little. I was like a daddy's girl, do you know? So when you feel like you actually had a good relationship, I felt like my dad loved me, I felt like... And then for you to just bounce

is quite well, you know, of course. Did he not check back in? Like what was his visitation like? There was none at all. Where did he go? I don't know. I got a clue. Did he start another family? I have no idea. Do you see him now? No. At all? No. I have seen him since I was 11. But we don't have a relationship. But I don't have like any bad like, you know, I think, and again, thank God for music and me being able to have that space to process and talk about it. It really does allow me to let go, you know, and sometimes move on from the situation, just give it time after like I've written it and I've processed it, just like, okay, maybe I can try and look at things

from a different perspective or whatever it is, you know, so I don't hold like any negative bad, like, you know, I want him to be well, happy, healthy and yeah. Of course. And if he said, I'd like to get back in touch, maybe he has, if he said, you know, let's meet up, let's try and... Yeah, I'd link him for sure. Yeah, I don't have any like, I'm not angry teen. No, I get it.

You know what I mean? But you would also be valid to say, I'm not an angry teen and also I have boundaries and I know where that leads and I don't feel like it's somewhere helpful, healthy for me. Yeah, I hear that, but life's too short, man. Like, you know what I mean? I'm not afraid of a conversation or a meeting of my ends and you being able to speak your piece and me being able to speak mine.

Even if we never have this far-of-the-door connection or relationship that I thought we'd always have, I've been at peace with that, you know, so anything is probably a bonus or extra, you know, it's not, yeah, and for sure you're right, like boundaries are important, but I think I'm doing better at that. We spoke about this Skepta's show like that you I'd been to America recently and you're on billboards. Do you feel what do you feel like the state of UK hip-hop in America is how do you feel, what do you feel like the state of UK hip hop in America is? How do you feel when you're over there? Do you feel like you're getting love over there? Yeah, my shows sell out.

Do they? Yeah. Well that's a good sign. And I think with any territory, like I've tried to just pull up and solidify and do shows and just keep building and growing. But yeah, it's for sure, lots of love. But did I read that you were gonna do a tour there last year and you canceled it?

Yeah. And what was that about? Wasn't making sense. Why not? I didn't wanna put myself in a situation or position where I just felt like it was going to cause me a lot of mental, physical, financial strain. Stressful. You were having to basically, your team was having to mainly what? Drive it and book it and promote it and do all the stuff?

Yeah. So you felt exposed. And to be fair, like, this is my own learning because I could have said, I don't want a tour right now, instead of announce a tour, let people buy tickets and then have to disappoint. You know what I mean? That's my own learning. It's my own bad. It's just learning how to say no, I'm taking care of me right now. This is what I'm going to handle. When I come and do it, I'll do it properly But now it's not the right time So I've gotten better Just understanding When the time in and had to say no and you haven't got we say yes

You know because in fear of a missed opportunity or a missed moment, you know Hmm or a mis-moment, you know? It's just been announced literally in the last few hours that you're curating the Meltdown Festival on the South Bank. I am, you're coming. Am I invited? Yeah.

What can you say? It's a big deal. Like they had, David Bowie did one, Nick Cave, David Byrne from The Talking Heads. Shaka Khan. Chaka Khan. It's a certain industry status, but they're saying you represent something of real import of the highest caliber in the industry and we don't just want you, we want your vision. For what?

How would they describe it? For artists that inspire you or that you respect? Yeah, I think both. What, as in how... In terms of how you progress. It's a series of events, right? You curate a series of live shows, basically, on the South Bank. Yeah, my thing's coming different. It's not just live shows. What is it?

It's a... Exhibitions as well? Yeah, I just want it to feel like a real place where there's variety. You know, it's like as well as there's... It's a celebration of arts and culture, but I think I don't want it to just be you come and see a gig. No. You know, I want it to feel like you can come and engage in activities, there's workshops, there's

panel discussions, there's talks, there's DJs there if you just want to catch a vibe, you just want to pass through it. So like I want it to feel quiet. Eclectic. Yeah, for sure. Who's coming? Who's going to be on the bill? Who are you going to have?

You're doing it obviously. Yeah. Stormzy maybe? There's Big Michael. Some great artists. Dave. That I have. Central Sea. Put together. You can't name any. In this eclectic. Be specific. Meeting of arts and culture. Hello is this on? Hello. And I feel like of arts and culture. Hello, is this on? Hello? And I feel like it's going to be 11 days of epicness and fun. You're like media trained.

Did someone say to you like, if Louis says something, you don't want to answer it? Either talk over him or just answer a different question. Did you just figure that out? Like you can basically say what you want. Can we put any names out there? No. Too early.

You know, I'm giving you a lot today, Louis, you know. Well I compared it to an aero and a Swiss cheese because there was some intriguing, dare I say, dramatic pregnant pauses. I love a good pause. I think she rode the pauses better than I did. I wasn't quite prepared for that. It's like pause chicken, isn't it? You're just, who's going to blink first? I Blunk. I Blunk. Umm, sometimes there's more meaning in a silence than in the actual words around it. Think about that.

A quick legal note about the Not Like Us lawsuit. Drake is suing Universal Music Group, the label that released the song. He's not suing Kendrick himself. Drake says that the suggestion that he is a paedophile is false. that he is a paedophile is false. As mentioned in the chat, Sims is curating Meltdown at the South Bank in London later this year. You can check out more info online. I think that might be about it. Other than credits, the producer was Millie Choo, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows.

The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.