The Louis Theroux Podcast - S5 EP6: Ed Sheeran on squeezing Stormzy into his Mini, having breakfast with Van Morrison, and remaining normal

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

In this episode, Louis speaks to pop megastar Ed Sheeran. Joining Louis in the studio, Ed describes squeezing Stormzy into his Mini, a surprising breakfast with Van Morrison, and how to be normal when you’re one of the most famous people in the world.   Warning: Strong language, as well as some adult themes.    Links/Attachments:  Album: ‘Play’, Ed Sheeran (2025)  https://open.spotify.com/prerelease/096l4VGKXhhUHyjD8gh1tf     Album: ‘Autumn Variations’, Ed Sheeran (2023)  https://open.spotify.com/album/5LXOgcszGvUkYzYL4v6wYg      Album: ‘Subtract’, Ed Sheeran (2023)  https://open.spotify.com/album/2WFFcvzM0CgLaSq4MSkyZk     SBTV – Online Platform  https://sbtv.co.uk/home/     Album: ‘Astral Weeks’, Van Morrison (1968)  https://open.spotify.com/album/4pG3bKkbmReDt5QTDn3JDz     Album: ‘Moondance’, Van Morrison (1970)  https://open.spotify.com/album/5PfnCqRbdfIDMb1x3MPQam    Album: ‘Irish Heartbeat’, Van Morrison & The Chieftains (1988)  https://open.spotify.com/album/0qTjwpf7Oqh8MGtK3aflgO     Album: ‘Van Morrison at the Movies’, Van Morrison (2007)  https://www.vanmorrison.com/music/van-morrison-at-the-movies-soundtrack-hits     Album: ‘Veedon Fleece’, Van Morrison (1974)  https://open.spotify.com/album/1zvI5Kkxus94lhz0RvZWBf     Album: ‘Saint Dominic’s Preview’, Van Morrison (1972)  https://open.spotify.com/album/0i3c1sR3poI6S2VIH2VP7Q     Song: ‘All Along the Watchtower’, Bob Dylan (1967)  https://open.spotify.com/track/0Fnb2pfBfu0ka33d6Yki17     A Complete Unknown (2024)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdV-Cs5o8mc  Song: ‘F64’, Ed Sheeran (2023)  https://open.spotify.com/track/5DFi6D7SrYHRIgZbY5MqqE     Song: ‘Jiggle Jiggle’, Louis Theroux and Duke & Jones (2022)  https://open.spotify.com/artist/016Rz5DsXUPPxosNTZLYcv    Song: ‘You Need Me, I Don’t Need You’, Ed Sheeran (2011)  https://open.spotify.com/track/5KL4iZkCTZyXl7KnHgfVDj     Song: 'They Won't Go When I Go', Stevie Wonder (1974)  https://open.spotify.com/track/1lIOMibFPfFYlJnjQaZluo     Song: ‘Bootylicious’, Destiny’s Child (2001)  https://open.spotify.com/track/09mkdGhqb5ySKVsnkx9hy2    Song: ‘Superstition’, Stevie Wonder (1972)  https://open.spotify.com/track/4N0TP4Rmj6QQezWV88ARNJ    Album: ‘Mule Variations’, Tom Waits (1999)  https://open.spotify.com/album/7cAcex6xw4fP67ltgn1gm3     Song: ‘JCB’, Nizlopi (2005)  https://open.spotify.com/track/6CWCgRZ0Hxa2dnrCCvq5bA     Album: ‘Nebraska’, Bruce Springsteen (1982)  https://open.spotify.com/album/6yskFQZNlLYhkchAxELHi6     Song: ‘Born in the U.S.A.’, Bruce Springsteen (1984)  https://open.spotify.com/track/0dOg1ySSI7NkpAe89Zo0b9   Song: ‘Atlantic City’, Bruce Springsteen (1982)  https://open.spotify.com/track/1Vp8U39YNsDfd6yVuaUq12     Song: ‘Azizam’, Ed Sheeran (2025)  https://open.spotify.com/track/0GRc3eGTg8HBdWLRGYgqIc     Song: ‘Shape of You’, Ed Sheeran (2017)  https://open.spotify.com/track/7qiZfU4dY1lWllzX7mPBI3     Song: ‘Baby Shark’, Pinkfong (2017)  https://open.spotify.com/track/5ygDXis42ncn6kYG14lEVG     Moana (2016)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKFuXETZUsI     Song: ‘Thinking Out Loud’, Ed Sheeran (2014)  https://open.spotify.com/track/34gCuhDGsG4bRPIf9bb02f     Song: ‘Let’s Get It On’, Marvin Gaye (1973)  https://open.spotify.com/track/627teoJpK7qZOxRRY8TNnv     TV Show: ‘Ed Sheeran: The Sum of It All’ (2023) - Disney+  https://www.disneyplus.com/en-gb/browse/entity-76b2ccc7-d7d8-434c-b750-f97746bce411     The Lego Movie (2013)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ_JOBCLF-I       Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Artemis Irvine  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1212 ready? Mic number one. Hello, Louis Theroux here and welcome back to my podcast called the Louis Theroux podcast. Today I'm joined by pop megastar and fellow gold record holder, because I have one as well, Ed Sheeran. Maybe you've heard of him? Ed dropped out of school in 2008 in order to pursue a career in music and moved to London just before he turned 17. His career took off in 2011 with his single The A Team. It's nothing to do with the TV show. It's actually a sad ballad about a woman who has a drug problem and takes to the streets. He was propelled in his career by the continued support of his friend and founder of hip hop platform SBTV, Jamal Edwards.

We talk about Jamal quite a bit. He was a seminal figure in the West London music scene and the gateway for many young grime performers, which is why it's somewhat unusual that Ed hooked up with him and that they became such close friends, Ed being in some ways an unlikely denizen of the grime scene. Nevertheless, that was the case. They were very close right up until Jamal died in 2022, which had an enormous impact on Ed, the bereavement, and Ed remains close to the family. We talk about all of that. Ed's biggest songs, there's so many, but Shape of You comes to mind. It's still the second most

streamed song of all time on Spotify. You know that one. I'm in love with the Shape of You. Push and pull like a magnet to, and my bedsheets smell like you. I'm doing a different version than the one you know. Thinking out loud is another one. When your legs don't work like they used to before. I'm trying to bring these to mind for you. Is the opening line. When your legs don't work like they used to before. And I tweeted, did you just threaten me Ed Sheeran? That got a few likes back in the day before Twitter was a toxic dump. It sounds like a threat.

It's about when they're old and they're still in love. Perfect. I'm back to the songs now. Perfect. Galway Girl, Photograph and many, many more. It's evergreen. He rides evergreen in 70. The record labels are going to be banging my door down when they hear me singing these songs.

Covers by Louis Theroux. Where were we? Ed is one of the best-selling and most successful artists of the 21st century. He has consistently broken records throughout his career, whether it's being the most streamed artist in the world, or having one of the highest-grossing tours of all time. In 2017, all 16 tracks of his album Divide debuted inside the UK Top 40, necessitating a change that entries in the chart are now limited to three per artist. It's like changing the rules of the 100 meters because someone's running too fast.

You know what I mean? Like they actually changed the rules because he was so dominating. Dominating? All dominant. They gerrymandered the categories. 14 UK number ones, eight UK number one albums, five Brit awards, four Grammys, but he doesn't have a viral hit on TikTok. He probably does. More recently, Ed's been a vocal advocate for more music education funding in schools. He launched the Ed Sheeran Foundation in January 2025, which is dedicated to supporting music education in state schools across the UK. This one was recorded in person in the podcast studio in May this year. It appeared at the door. He had a kind of hectic jet set

energy. He was a man in a hurry in a good way. Like he's obviously got a lot going on. He has to ring fence his time. He was here to promote his upcoming album, Play, which is due out on the 12th of September this year. It will be his eighth studio album and features the singles Azizam and Old Phone. A warning, there is strong language in the episode. Adult themes and some dodgy singing from yours truly. Millie made me say that. The singing is actually pretty good, as you can expect. All that and much, much more coming up. You've met some wild people by the way. Just going on a tangent. Me and my friends whenever we're like, I don't know, having a night in on Red Wine or something,

we'll just put on one of the old docks. We actually, we played in... The old ones are the goodies. I did a gig in Bangkok and we ended up watching your one on about the Thai bride yeah yeah yeah thank you for that it's funny isn't it I love to I love that image the idea of you watching that crazy world you are like culturally within I would say my generation the end of the generation below viewed as like you know know, kind of deity sort of thing. Oh, well, that's very nice of you.

You're 20 years younger. I could be your dad if I started early. You were born in 91. I was born in 1970. So I definitely am aware that there's some love coming from that generation. And that's nice to hear that. But notwithstanding all of that, you are a huge international pop music colossus with how many on Instagram? Like 37, 40 million? Something like that. Yeah, I couldn't give you a correct

number in that bracket. Lots of people. Huge. And so the reason I mention it is because your level of stardom, and in my very junior version, you have to police your boundaries a bit. And I think what we do have in common is maybe the sense that we think of ourselves as being quite normal, and we try not to let celebrity, forgive me for speaking for you, but from reading about you, watching interviews, you seem to be someone who's made an effort to kind of remain within the compass of normal life. Yeah, I think it's, I have a conversation with my wife about this actually, because I do think that there's a, there is a different kind of normal that is our business. So like like for instance I have like 24 hour security on my thank you my house so I have security with my kids I have security with me I have security

with my wife just because there've been a couple of like weird things over the years that have happened and yes no no no just you know there's lots of dangerous people out there and it wasn't't, there were people fixated on you for some reason. No, we've had like, you know, breaking attempts and shit, just stuff like... Criminal... Yeah, like bad stuff. Right. And I've never seen that as normal, but within my industry, that's completely normal.

Like lots of people I know have way more security and stuff like that. So I don't know, that's kind of like an underlying thing that no one ever really talks about, but that is kind of a part of the normal of being in the public eye, I guess. To what extent, this is a woolly question, but I'll try it. To what extent are you conscious of being able to lead a normal life? Or are you within a little bit of, I don't know, security-wise, because obviously that's clearly not normal. But in terms of just your experience of reality, you couldn't wonder out, or could you wonder out of here after this interview and go down

to Trafalgar Square and have a walk around, or could you? Yeah, I mean, I can do any of those things. Like all of those things are possible. It's just what happens when you do them. And I think sometimes if I'm going to do that, I go, I'm going to accept that maybe this isn't going to go the way I want it to go. And I'll just say yes to everyone that's asked for a selfie. And that will just be what that is. So that still is normal. I can still go to Trafalgar Square. It's more like, I'm very, very private about my children's image. And for me, I can't take them to zoos or parks or anything really without someone trying to film them. And I don't want my kids' image out there on a stranger's phone or device. So those are the times where the normal parts

of life I kind of mourn for and sort of wish I could push my kid on a swing in a public park and it not be weird you know. So how do you do that then? I don't really do it that much I think like we've cut with all the things that I've tried to do normal for my kids we just do it in a you know my friend's mum was in a pantomime and there was a matinee for it and she shot off the top of the theatre so we could sit there on our own and watch her in the pants. But stuff like that, so you still do normal things but in a very like controlled manner. And that's less for me, like I'm not a like,

no one look at me kind of, I'm not that person at all. I love being out and about. I just like, I'm really, really sensitive to my kids trying to just protect them as much as possible. I found my first daughter six weeks after she was born, we hadn't sent any photos of her out whatsoever, but there was a paparazzi outside our house that got a photo of her. And then it was in the paper. And then I just found it weird that just some strange old man that I'd never met was the only person with an image of my kid on their device. It's a strange trade off because obviously to be successful in the music industry you

end up being rich, famous and successful and those things are things that people go, well, that's the trade-off but my kids have not signed up to that and I find it weird that they, I don't know, it's normal to take pictures of other people's children if they're famous. Yeah. How are you with public transport? You probably wouldn't. No, I love it. Do you? Yeah, I love it. Do you?

Yeah, I love it. There was a story about you being on a... this must have been a few years ago, on a plane back from... where was it from? Somewhere in like in Spain or maybe New York or Ibiza? Oh yeah, no, that was ten years ago. That was bad though. That was like, I was flying back on a Sunday night with all the lads who'd been on the lads trip. That was bad. Why? I had a recent one actually because my... And that was bad because everyone started... I was on my own. So this was pre-security and I was on my own. I was on a hangover as

well. What were they doing? What was bad about it? I was working on two hours sleep. I was planning on just crashing out on the plane and then suddenly there was like 50 lads all very excited I mean it was actually it was actually fine it was actually fine there was one recently though I was my wife works in sustainability so like we don't we try and fly completely normally as much as possible we're flying back on a Ryan Air I think from a gig in Italy that I was doing last year but all of my fans who'd been at the gig will fly back.

Stop it. You were flying... Hang on, aren't you private jet all the way? No. I'll do it very, very rarely and it's only if it's like work... If I'm like doing a thing in Germany I have to be in LA the next day. You don't have a private jet? No. Wow. No. I like doing trains. I like trains. You can afford one. Yeah, but it's not really about that. I kind of like, I like, I like

the environment. I like trees. I like, I don't know. I find it hard to justify. Eco stuff. I said eco stuff. I'm not saying like no one's perfect like I have when we're doing intense promo trips there'll be the odd time but I'm very much like we do trains or like I'm flying to Mexico tomorrow and be a kind of thing. But you said Ryanair which I don't think they that's all one class isn't it they don't do they have. So yeah I had my kids on and one of them had fallen asleep on me and pissed on me and this person came up and was like,

can I have a selfie mate? And I was like, probably not, probably not the time. But yeah. I don't know, it feels weird to talk about flight stuff on a podcast. I never wanna be that guy that's like- No, no, forgive me, I'm dragging you down a dark path. And it's partly because-

We're talking about privacy and kids and all that. Yeah, exactly. How's life? Really good actually, really good. I'm kind of coming to the next stage of my career. You know, I've had 15 years of really slogging it and then I had children in the pandemic and sort of worked in the pandemic but not like in the same, I wasn't like traveling everywhere. I was doing a lot of the work from home and then have been on tour with my family

and now like I'm entering into like the next album campaign and everything sort of shifted and it's more family friendly, I guess. I think that it's kind of the next stage of the career where it's less, like when I was 21, I would do everything and anything and my life was live breathe the song that I'm pushing at that point or the tour that I'm doing at that point whereas now it's very sort of hand in hand and it's cool yeah. So here's the narrative I'm

going to present because I'd love to talk to you about how you came up that's an interesting story narrative I'm going to present, because I'd love to talk to you about how you came up. That's an interesting story. But it's also the case that you've had these previous two albums. They haven't let me hear the new one play. Yeah. But it's, it's, I've heard the singles. Yeah. I think there's three I've heard. So what I'm getting is that there were these two previous albums that were more introspective, very personal, quite painful, angsty, autumn variations and subtract. Kind of about, I'm talking too much, kind of about grief, bereavement, loss of your dear friend Jamal Edwards, also your wife having a serious medical situation. So now you're kind of embracing pop and having fun again. Yeah, I think that after all of that,

it was also serious as well, because I'm quite a, like, I think quite a fun smiley guy who jokes around a lot, but you can't really do that when you're releasing albums like that. So for the last two years, it's been pretty like serious and grim. But in that time, I've been making loads of fun music and yeah I don't know I guess a career has all sorts of like

ups downs this side that side and that was just where I was at then and where I'm at now is like been traveling the world for all that time creating music around the world and it's all quite fun and upbeat. But I think you've been through a lot haven't you? I'm not trying to be heavy with you. No, yeah I think what has happened is adult life has come at the time I was in my thirties but I have friends that adults lives hit them when they were in their teens you know like death is a real thing that happens to everyone and I was fortunate that it happened late for me, I think, and going through that level of grief. Yeah, I think it's just adult, it's just life in it, it's just life, those things happen.

Just to bring listeners with us a little bit, can we talk about John Marl Edwards for a second? Yeah, he loved you by the way. Did he? Yeah, he would you by the way. Did he? Yeah, he would be buzzed with us doing this. Well he was a West Londoner, he was from Acton wasn't he? And I was probably living not far away in Halston and I would love to have been on his show.

Well why don't we explain who he is and what he represented to you in your journey. I think Jamal, it would be sort of too reductive to just say he ran SBTV because he did so many other things for people. SBTV was what? SBTV, it was like, well it is an online platform for music and arts in general. But he was, I guess just, he was a really great guy who facilitated a lot of people's dreams coming to reality. I met him when I was 18.

I'd just moved to London. He was running a platform that primarily did rap music and freestyles and stuff like that. We met and he put me on his platform and it blew me up. I think it's because of the juxtaposition of me being, you know, white scruffy hair with an acoustic guitar singing love songs. But on that platform, it really stood out and we formed the bond and a friendship and I lived with him at his house. What year are we talking? This is 2009, 2010.

So you were, what was it, 18, 19? Yeah, I was 18 and then turning 19, yeah. How long did you live with him for? I don't know really. Because it was kind of, I never like fully... You weren't full time. No, well, I don't know, it was sort of like maybe two, three days a week for a year. So not like, I never fully lived anywhere.

I was place to place to place every day because I would do a gig in West London and stay at Jamal's, I'd do a gig in North London and stay at my friend Darrell's. Did you not have your own spot? No, I couldn't afford it at that point. I was gigging and every ounce of anything that I was making was going into travel and food. What about Bank of Mum and Dad? No, because they sort of like lost their... I mean, I don't want to go into their shit too much, but like when the credit crunch happened in 2008 or whatever, their business folded. So that it was sort of at the wrong time for that anyway.

Your dad was a curator? Well he created art galleries, yeah. And then they went into education sort of like early 2000s. And then they started up another business that was launching around the time that the crunch happened and that didn't go well. So they weren't in a position to bankroll you too much? I would say like if I was in real, real dire straits and I was stranded somewhere, they'd sort me out for a train ticket home kind of thing. You never slept on the streets or did you?

Everyone's in interviews or whatever like has made out that I was like homeless. I wasn't homeless. I just didn't have a place to... You were of no fixed abode. No fixed abode. But there was always places for me to go in. I had loads of mates that ran acoustic nights that gave me sofas to sleep on. I had loads of mates like Jamal who would let me crash at theirs.

I just didn't have a fixed abode, but I found lots of kind people in London that put me up. How did you like that? I didn't know anything different really. Well you knew a stable like place to live and stable family. Yeah, but I came from Suffolk and London was exciting and I was just like, well I used to live in a stable family Yeah, but I came from Suffolk and like London was exciting and I was just like well, I'm just doing my thing I'm playing gigs every night and crashing at random people's places I look back at it now being a you know, a 17 year old boy playing staying at who strangers houses

I'm sure my mum if she'd have known would have been like this This is a bit worrying but at the time I didn't view it like that at all It was just I met people it shows, they said, come back to ours. I'll go back to theirs, have some beers, crash and go and do it again. So you came to London, you didn't go to university. Obviously, you know, everything I get from reading about your home life, your family life growing up, it's like it was solid. Yeah, my parents were great, man. My parents were great. I just, I think like my dad was always very encouraging when I wanted to do music was like, if you're going to do it,

you have to work really hard and you have to just go and do it. And I think that's why I didn't really like lean into back into them that much. Once I'd gone to London, I was like, I'm just going to go and do it and make sure that I'm playing every single day. And in the days I'm writing songs every single day and making sure that there's no spare moment. All of my moments are towards the end goal of being a performer. But yeah, I'd go back. I had also my girlfriend at that time I went to school with and she was still in school in Suffolk so I would go back. You go back and forth? Pretty regularly, yeah.

Just on your parents, is your dad Irish? My dad is. Well, his dad's from Northern Ireland, his mum's from Southern Ireland. I would go back. You go back and forth? Pretty regularly, yeah. Just on your parents, is your dad Irish? My dad is, well, his dad's from Northern Ireland, his mum's from Southern Ireland. I would say yes, he's Irish, but either side. Because you're English and Irish, or should I say British? I don't know. You tend to say English, don't you? I noticed that rather than British. Yeah, I don't know really.

Maybe that's just a nuance thing. I don't know. I wear an England football shirt when they play, but I would identify- Quite a tricky fence to straddle sometimes. Yeah, but that's if you're gonna get into politics. Like I class my culture as Irish. I think that that's what I grew up with.

My mom's family is very, very small. It's her and her parents. And my dad's family is, he's got seven brothers and sisters. The catalyst family. It's massive and her parents and my dad's family is, he's got seven brothers and sisters. The Catholic family? It's massive, yeah. So we'd spend all of our holidays in Ireland. My first musical experiences were in Ireland.

I grew up with trad music in the house. So I do like, I identify culturally as Irish, but I was obviously born and raised in Britain. But... Don't overthink it. I don't know. I don't, I don't overthink it. I don't know I don't I don't know but I do feel like Mike my culture is something that I'm really proud of and grew up with and want to

Express and I feel like just because I was born in Britain doesn't necessarily mean that I have to just be yeah, but there's you know, there's loads of people I know that are half this or a quarter that. Polyvalency. I'm half American. It's not the same, but I do my holidays in America. But you identify with the culture. I do. I'm protective of it in some respects. I also see the flaws of it. When England are playing I support England. I think that's allowed. I don't think there's any rules to it. It should be how you feel and how you were raised and what you are leaning into.

Do you get a lot of love in Ireland? Yeah, I'd say it's basically my second home musically. I'd say Ireland is the place that I am most successful musically. It's definitely the per capita. Yeah, definitely. Have you ever met Van Morrison yeah I met Van Morrison weirdly actually I was doing a gig in Belfast and my grandmother had come down to the gig and we'd stayed up that night she loves golf and Rory McElroy had come down and she you know she was in her 90s at that point but just loved being around him so we stayed up super late talking to him and I'd say we went to bed at like 4 a.m. and then at about 6 in her 90s at that point but just loved being around him so we stayed up super late talking

to him and I'd say we went to bed at like 4am and then at about 6am I got a call on my hotel phone from the hotel being like Mr Morrison's in the lobby, he wants to have breakfast with you and I was like half asleep and half drunk so I just hung up and I was like I have no idea who Mr Morrison is. Like why are you ringing me at 6 o'clock in the morning? No one's ever called him Mr Morrison is. Like why are you ringing me at six o'clock in the morning? No one's ever called him Mr Morrison before in some way. He's Van the Man. Yeah, it was a posh hotel, they're not going to say Van the Man. And then I get another call and they said sorry, Van Morrison is in. And I suddenly sort of woke up, had a

really quick shower, ran downstairs and there he was waiting for me and we had breakfast together, which was really surreal. I'm a huge, huge fan, Morrison fan. One of my favourite albums is his album he did with the Chieftains Irish heartbeat. We spoke for ages about everything. One of the subjects was actually Spotify. Spotify was quite a new thing at that point. I had embraced Spotify quite early in my career and I think

he was like asking me to explain Spotify to him basically. Really? Yeah. Wow, we've got a lot of product alignment right now, it's beautiful. Because I didn't really know what Spotify was and it was at the time where my album had been released around Europe and it had sold X amount of copies in France, X amount of copies in UK, X amount of copies in Germany and zero copies in Sweden. I remember saying like, what's going on in Sweden?

They were like, oh no, no, you've been number one for X amount of weeks on Spotify. And it just, I mean, obviously Sweden created the wave, but yeah, it definitely. What, so they weren't buying it because they had it on Spotify? Yeah, it was just streaming. And I guess there was no correlation to charts and streaming back then. Interesting, they weren't using that data. Van Morrison has a reputation for being grumpy. You didn't find him grumpy. I think anyone that I've met in the industry can be grumpy if you meet them in the wrong way. And I think I met him as an artist. Fellow artist.

Fellow artist and we had a lovely conversation. I've met him since and really get on with him. I'm such a big fan. He's incredible, he's incredible. And I think his output of music, and I think also because I was so schooled in his output of music, he liked that I didn't just come in and go, Astral Weeks and Moon Dance are great. Like I've dug into his discography with him and I think he liked that.

What are your other favourite albums of his? I'd say Irish Heartbeat is definitely my favourite. He's released one called At The Movies as well. I've never heard of that one. It's basically his songs in, different songs in films. I first heard that song, Someone Like You, of his. But yeah, he's got a lot of records out there, a lot. And it's quite fun to collect them. Because also, not all of them are on,

I've been trying to find them on cassette, for instance. Not all of them are on cassette. Not all of them have reached new pressings of vinyls. You have to go back and find old pressings of vinyls. It's quite a fun thing to go in. Why would you want them on cassette? I collect cassette. Do you?

Yeah, and I collect vinyl. Veed and Fleece is a brilliant one, not that widely known. St Dominic's Preview is a brilliant one. Veed and Fleece is a fantastic record. Oh my god, brilliant. Have you been to see him a few times? Yeah. Yeah, he's fantastic.

I think that, do you know what I found about people's like reputations in the industry is like, you just have to judge them on how you meet them. And I think I was very nervous to meet him because of that. Same thing with Eminem. Like I didn't know whether Eminem would be happy for me to be there or whether, you know, like standoffish or whatever. Under what circumstances did you, I know you've performed with Eminem when he was inducted. First time I met him, we went in the studio together to make a song, but I didn't know official, whatever. Under what circumstances did you, I know you performed with Eminem when he was inducted. First time I met him we went in the studio together to make a song, but I didn't know how aware he was of who I was or what I'd done.

He seems like he'd be quite shy. But I don't think he is when you get to know him. I think his humour's very similar to mine. He likes like fucking with you. I bet. Yeah. And he loves comic books and you know, Marvel movies and video games. I sent him a Nintendo 64 with GoldenEye on it because he'd never played GoldenEye.

GoldenEye for my generation was like... Based on the Bond movie. Great game. I think still think it's the best first person shooter there is, but it's yeah, it's good. Have you met Dylan? No, I've never met Dylan. No, I had a, I did a song with an artist called Devlin and Labyrinth maybe like 12, no 13 years ago that sampled all along the watchtower and I think it got synced in a bunch of things and I met Dylan's manager and they were just like, Bob's very

grateful for all the sync money of that song because I think it ended up, because he obviously owns 100% of that tune I think, because it got synced in TV and movies and blah blah blah. But yeah, so whether he's aware or not. I like the movie though. I like the movie because it like covered my favourite period of Dylan. Right, mid-60s, we're talking about, what was it called again? Complete Unknown. Complete Unknown. You're a big movie guy? Starring Timothée Chalamet. Timothée Chalamet. I think it's got an accent on the E, doesn't

it? It probably is Timothée. I prefer saying Timothée. Yeah. Because it sounds like Timothée, which was shampoo. It was a shampoo, yeah, yeah, yeah, Theresa May. I love movies. I think I'm music first. Like not that you have to choose. You know what I mean? But I've started getting more back in. I've, I weirdly, I guess from being a musician just stopped listening to music. I just was surrounded by it. So therefore when I was home, I never

listened to it. And then it wasn't until having a kid and then realizing how like silent the house was and I remember growing up with loads of music playing at all times so I actively this is why I start collecting violin cassette I've always got a vinyl playing in the house always and I get them why vinyl because you commit to the record like you really there's no there's no, there's no choice, there's no skipping it, there's no like, oh I don't like that song, there's no, well I'm gonna put on this artist and then I'll go to this artist, it's just has lived in our kitchen and we just flip it every morning and listen to it and we love it and I also like met the guy that works at Rough Trade, Chris, through like Elton collects vinyls and I went to Elton's vinyl room and was like fucking hell like... That would be Elton John? Yeah. Do you know another Elton? I'll get back to you on that.

He still calls me Ed Sheeran though. Really? Yeah. That's a joke? No, I just think that's just programmed in. Programmed in. But anyway, he has a huge vinyl collection and he listens to all the new releases every single week and I sort of wanted to replicate that. listening to me new music every week. So I've kind of got his set up now of all the new releases come and I listen to as many of them as I can.

It's very hit and miss though. Very hit and miss. Because you sort of like you commit to an album and you're like, it's not really for me. We were talking about Jamal and because I'm kind of curious about what the timeline was, but just to deal with, you'd been semi, you have no fixed abode, I think that was the term we agreed upon, and then you kind of made this friendship, you clicked. This was after you'd come back from America where you'd... No, it was before actually, because I remember speaking to him when I was in America about what was going on, but yeah, it was, I'd gone to America to play, just to do the same thing as I was doing in London. I felt like London had got a little bit stale for me. I was playing

the same acoustic nights with the same artists at the same venues. And it's very difficult to stand out as an acoustic singer songwriter with five other acoustic singer songwriters on the bill. And I, and honestly, I just wasn't good enough. I wasn't as good as everyone else I was playing with. I was also like 10 years younger. Um, so I thought I wanted to sort of break the cycle a little bit and go and play in America. I had a friend, Elizabeth, that was a poet that knew a poet out there

that ran a poetry night, um, and said that I could go and play there. And I went to go and play that gig. That went really well and then at that show the promoter was like I can get you more shows. So then we just did a month of shows around America and what it kind of did for me was showing me that actually it's really possible if I try a different approach. And so when I got home, my approach was anything but an acoustic night. So I would play jazz nights, soul nights, folk nights, hip hop nights, comedy nights. And you always stand out because you're the only one doing what you're doing there.

You had listened to Grime growing up. So it was like, I mean, you had an appreciation for that, for that genre and that scene and yeah I would have watched SP TV from it's sort of like birth really I followed that scene from Really really young yeah 1415 was when I was sort of locked into it and then moving to London I got to meet all the people I'd grown up watching in person because they would just around who were the artists you're thinking of? I mean through Jamal, I met JME, Wretch32, Scorcher.

Dave and Stormzy, or would that be a bit later? That was later on, and I met them so naturally. I actually originally tried to, and it wouldn't have worked because he'd set up his own label at this point anyway, but I just set up Gingerbread Records, and my friend Alec knew Mike really well and I got him down to Suffolk and there was talks of maybe signing him and then obviously he set up Murky Records and went to do what he did. We stayed really close and have been sort of collaborators since then. But that was like 2015. I think I met Dave in 2017 at the Ivers and he's actually

what Dave's worked a lot on the new record. He's done a lot of production on the new record because aside from being a brilliant lyricist, he's also an incredible producer and writer. So he's been across the record really. Wow. Stormzy writes very warmly of you in his book. I say it's his book, it's all a biography of him and he describes arriving maybe with twin. Yeah, my house in Suffolk. Yeah. And they think they see a battered car and they're like, I may be in a blinged out car or whatever and they're like, we've got this all wrong. Yeah. It was my Mini. Do you know that? Yeah. No, I didn't know that. Yeah. I bought my

first car was a Mini and I think they came and I then drove them to the pub in the Mini and you've obviously met Stormzy, he's like, pretty big. He's like six feet six maybe. He didn't really fit in the back of the Mini. I bet. But isn't that, I was really struck by the way in which, certainly for elements of the Graham community, like success is something that you display, right? Ostentatiously, that's just part of the culture,

whereas obviously that's not how you roll. I don't know, man. I like nice things. Do you? Yeah, I like nice things. Like what? I love a good bottle of wine. I'd say that's like a-

What about your watch? No, I started collecting watches. Is that an expensive watch, because I can't tell. I think most watches over a certain point are yeah. I got my first watch with Jamal actually. I started collecting watches with him. We started our passion of collecting watches together I guess but yeah that's definitely something that I'm into. What was it that clicked between you and Jamal?

How do you describe it? It sounds like it was quite a special friendship. Yeah, it was almost like brothers. It was almost like meeting someone that I'd known my whole life. And we really clicked and spent... I actually say it in the song F64 that I did when he passed away. People did assume that we were lovers. They thought that we were in in a because we were just together the entire time and we would holiday together and Blah blah blah. I obviously stayed at his house and stuff, but it was just it was just a friendship that You I was just with him the whole time, you know, we had so much in common

But also with from two completely different bank backgrounds, but he grew up with his mom is a performer and a singer And had been on stage. I think he grew up with, his mum is a performer and a singer and had been on stage and I think he grew up around that. So I think we had this, I don't know, synergy. He appreciated you musically, were you musically aligned? Yeah, because I think that a lot of the music that I make has soul in it and as I said, like he'd grown up with a lot of soul music in his house. And yeah, I guess we were musically aligned and I love rap music and he obviously was so ingrained in rap culture. So yeah. And you were rapping a bit at the time.

Yeah, I mean I still still rap from time to time, Louis. Of course you do. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. And I like that. I used to rap a bit back in the day. Yeah, I know. I got a viral rap. You did. Called Jiggle Jiggle. Do you ever perform Jiggle Jiggle?

Do you ever go and do a PA at, you know? Are you asking me to perform it? It's not, it needs to be like an Oceana. An Oceana or a Liquid Envy, you know, like one of those. What is that? It's like a student night, just go and bust it out. When it first broke, I've got a gold record, it went gold. I know to you, Ed Sheeran, that maybe doesn't mean very much, but to me it means a lot.

I think it's pretty cool to have a gold record being Louis Theroux. I mean, it's pretty cool. Thank you. And when it first happened, it was obviously very weird. My agent said, be careful about performing it too much because it could go on social media and it dilutes its presence on the social media algorithms. Does that make sense? Totally, yeah. I mean, less is more, definitely.

And plus my wife said, stop it, it is embarrassing. She was the big one. Ed, you know what, just one time turn up on someone's set at Glastonbury and do it, just once and just rock it. They asked me to do it at Glastonbury. You have to come out on the on someone's set at Glastonbury and do it, just once, and just rock it. They asked me to do it at Glastonbury. You have to come out on the right person's set. I think I missed the window. I think that... Like if Stormzy brings you out, that's amazing.

I think the Jiggle Jiggle era is over, as much as it's not over, but... It's never over, man. It's never over. It's alive in all of us. That's nice to hear that. I believe that as well, but I don't like to say so. Oh my god, you got me on the back foot. You know, it's really striking around that time as well. So you'd come to London. One of the things you did, embarrassingly triumphed on SBTV,

you did a song called You Need Me, I Don't Need You. Was that released as a single? Yeah, I put it out as a single in 2011, like a recorded version. That was actually the toughest song to record, because it was such a live song and we could never get the energy of the live performance in it. Suffoc sadly seems to sort of suffocate me, is one of the lyrics. Yeah. You talk about you didn't go to Brit school. I wasn't trying to like rag on the Brit school.

It was just at that time. You remember at that time, every artist had come out of the Brit school. It was just at that time. You remember at that time, every artist had come out of the Brit school. There was like a time where it was like every single big artist. And I've been pulled up on it before because a lot of people I know now went to the Brit school and you know, were like, why did you say that? But it was more at the time.

I was 15 when I wrote that song. So at the time I was like, I'm gonna be big and I didn't go to Brit school. And that's, you know, like, I don't know it's like a confidence thing. Well what I wrote was brackets chip on his shoulder question mark obviously this isn't the end of now. Massively. Yeah go on. Dude I was like I had I had I was slightly chubby really messy red hair played a small guitar I rapped and I beatbox and everyone told me that I would never get anywhere because of the way I looked and the way I performed.

I went in to see every single record label at least twice and all of them were like, I think one of the quotes was can you imagine yourself on a magazine cover? Like someone actually said that to you. Someone actually said that. Who said that? Let's put him out there. But you don't always get it right and I think the reason that I had success was because it was so anti everything that people thought a pop star should look like or act like. Yeah, so I had a massive chip in my shoulder. Hair and teeth. Do you know this is the James Brown quote, do you know it?

Hair and teeth, you got them, you got it all. I think you need a little bit more than that. And James obviously had a little bit more than that. But I think he meant like, you were talking about packaging, I think, rather than musical talent. No, I don't agree with it. I think that there's three things you need. Hair, teeth, and what else? No, fuck hair and teeth.

You obviously need work ethic and drive, I think is number one. I think number two is a personality, and I think number three is talent. And if you have the first two and a little bit of number three you will go far If you have all three personality, so there's work ethic and work ethic and drive first because you can get a long way just being You know persistent personality of people like you if you're magnetizing if you've got like a bit of fucking

Juj and then talent and there are so many people that I know within the industry and then talent. And there are so many people that I know within the industry that have a lot of the first two and a little bit of the third, and they've got really far from just being likable and hardworking. Are hair and teeth maybe four and five? I'm not gonna rag on James Brown

because I think he's very talented, but like, I don't think hair and teeth come into it. Really? Yeah. I feel like I've maybe done James Brown a disservice. I think the quotation wasn't intended to be like this is all you need in life. Yeah. Although it would take you quite far in life in general. In some areas. But I think in the music industry, I think in any industry, like I, to begin with, I wouldn't say I had a huge amount of talent. Like I think my talent was home. I've heard you say this before this before I think it's true I'm not buying it Ed Sheeran

I can play you songs that I made when I was first I've done it so many times in interviews where I played songs I heard one on Jonathan Ross and it was the guitar work was pretty good yeah it was three chords but like my singing wasn't there and the song wasn't we've all had our off days you were probably like 12 years old 14 yeah yeah yeah your voice was probably breaking it was yeah but also like I think the more I sung and the more I imitated like singing Stevie Wonder songs it got better the more you kind of do the scales and all of that is Stevie Wonder specifically Stevie

Wonder and Beyonce were two people that I used to listen to all the time in practice runs like they do lots of, I think they're called melismas. Melisma is like a, I know that one's good. Cut that bit out. It's when you shift pitch on a single word. So Stevie has a song called They Won't Go When I Go and there was one riff on the end that was like, they won't go when I go. And I used to just sing that over and over. Wow, can I just applaud that was nice. Wasn't Stevie there, but I used to, when I was 15, 16, just used to just sing that over and over. Wow, can I just applaud that was nice. Wasn't Steve Laird, but when I was 15, 16, I just used to try and do that run over and

over and over again. And there was a bunch of Beyonce songs where I would just practice her runs and I think that that's where... Which songs of hers would you do? Would it be Beyonce's solo or Destiny's Child? Both, I think. I don't think you're ready for this jelly. Well, they were less...

I don't think you're ready for this jelly. It's more of the, I don't think you're ready for this jelly. Well they were less... I don't think you're ready for this jelly. It's more of the, I don't think you're ready for this jelly, my body's so boo... Too boo delicious. You can sample that, someone can sample that now. Why? Just you going, I don't think you're ready for this jelly. Why would they want to do that? Because you need another gold record loop.

No, it was more her ballads and she would always let rip on the ballads. I think more of the tempo songs it would just be... This is what makes a great vocalist. I think you know when to do those runs and not to, like if you just overly run the whole time, as you say, less is more. When Beyonce does it or when Stevie does it, like Stevie doesn't really do it on superstition, you know, like tiny bits, but when he does those tiny bits in superstition you're like oh that's if he just did it the whole way and it didn't have structure it would be yeah yeah absolutely who else do you like that I might be surprised by musically do you like a bit of everything yeah I listen to it I am what have I been listening to recently I finally got into Tom Waits

finally did it take a bit of work? Yeah, I used to tour with a band. And the piano has been drinking. It was Mule Variations, his record, that really clicked for me. And it was, so I got bought his, one of his records when I was 15, I was touring with a band called Nisloppy and I was there.

Nisloppy, who did famously the JCB song. And loads of other fucking amazing, they were like my favorite, favorite, favorite band. But at the end of the. And loads of other fucking amazing, they were like my favourite favourite favourite band. But at the end of the tour, Luke, the lead singer gave me a Tom Waits album and I just didn't get it at that point. I listened to it and it just didn't hit me. Which one was it? Swordfish Trombone? I remember it had a blue cover and it was screaming on it. But anyway, my studio engineer, Hunter came round mine the other day for it.

We had a vine all night and he brought Mule Variations, Tom Waits, and I suddenly got it. I had the same thing with Bruce Springsteen. I didn't really understand Bruce Springsteen until I listened to Nebraska and then I was in. I think sometimes with artists you have to have an entry point. The Brusk is his sort of pared down, bokey, midwestern kind of bleak salt bearing album. I think Born in the USA was written for it and I think it was originally recorded for

it and then held off it and then he did that next. But it's very, he's got a song called Atlantic City which was my entry point to that record but I think it's just a perfect record. He's a terrific songwriter. I mean that's sort of like stating the obvious. And performer, I think he's, and he's someone who I, like, when you have role models in terms of performers, Elton's obviously in there, but the way that Bruce has handled his career and his private life and raising his kids and knowing when... What's he done?

Has he got boundaries? He's like, he doesn't play the fame game too much. I don't really know him by the way. I've only met him a couple of times, but I think the moments that he knew to take his foot off the gas and be at home and be a dad is the thing that's inspiring me the most because in this industry, you can just go, go, go, go, go, go, go until you're 90 and you've missed everything. And I think the balance that I'm trying to strike at the moment is knowing when to put, like I'm going to Mexico tomorrow for two days and my foot's going to get fully on the gas and fucking hundred miles an hour and do all the work.

And then I'm on tour. No, I'm just going, I'm going for two days, going to do a bit of promo. And then when I'm home, it's my daughter's birthday. You take your foot off the gas, you live at home, you're dad and you don't let work enter into that. And I think he fully stopped touring when his kids are in full-time school and he was just at home. I might be wrong saying that, but that's the- He definitely seemed to step back, didn't he? And he was the biggest star on earth in the 80s. He was like the musical analogue of Sylvester Stallone. He seemed to represent

a muscular American attitude, which wasn't actually quite who he was in any way. But, and then it felt like he stepped back a bit. Yeah, and I think in terms of people who I would try and model my career off, just because I could do this a hundred miles an hour for the rest of my life and I could achieve lots of things, but I feel like I've achieved enough now that I can be happy with missing some achievements for

the next 15, 20 years, you know? And like every now and then dip back into it. But what kind of achievements, I mean, you've kind of scaled the heights. I'm not trying to shine you on too much. Well I want to find new things to be excited about and to be happy about because as you said like I've scaled the heights which were fun, but like I wanted to scale the sides and the depths and I wanted to scale different things. So I'm having a lot of, we're taking a portable pub around the world at the moment and doing random gigs in it to 30 people and that is so fun to me. I'm having so much fun doing that, that that's my new Wembley Stadium.

But it's more just- You're doing that for fun and promotional, kind of has some promotional value I suppose. Yeah, I think when we were talking about promoting this album I said I don't want to do anything that isn't exciting and fun. And I, there's a pub in London called the Devonshire that does a folk night every Tuesday that when I was living in London in between tour last year, I'd just go and play the folk night and you'd be playing to like 20 people but with these amazing folk musicians and just I would be buzzing when I finished it, just like the most fun and I just wanted to replicate that but also tie it in with promoting music because

it you know the Devonshire has it every week but we were playing in Ipswich Massachusetts which hadn't had it. So it was nice bringing it there and doing travelling with it. What's the largest crowd you've played to? It was 110,000 people at MCG Melbourne Crooked Ground. What's that like? It's sort of not too dissimilar to playing to 70,000 people or 50,000 people or I think past a certain point it's just a lot of people.

I did a show at Hockenheim in Germany, that was the last one that was big, that was like 108,000 people. I remember just looking out and being like, sure, like lots of people. Couldn't tell you how many there were, it was just a lot of people. Does it feel disembodied? Like it's sort of hard to get your head around on one level? I don't know, I like it. I like it, but I like the balance of both. I like doing my last tour in America, we would play a theatre on a Friday and then play a stadium on a Saturday, and I love the juxtaposition of that. The way that when people talk to me about it and

they're like, why would you do it? Because obviously it's like financially you would lose money doing a small show versus a big show. But for me, it's the, if you had a, no matter how good the steak was every day, say a stadium's a steak, no matter how, if the best, best, best steak of your life every single day, eventually you'd go, I think I want a dirty burger. And I think having the variety of like, I'll build a pub here and do a gig, or I'll play a theatre, or I'll pop up and play with this. I also love jumping on stage with other artists and doing something different and playing to a different audience. I think just always keeping life exciting rather than just being a stadium artist for the rest of my life. I just want to be someone who plays

shows and having the choice to do all of them is like great. Do you love to perform? Yeah, I realised this the other day actually the two joys of my life professionally are writing songs and performing and actually everything in between. I fucking hate releasing music. I'd really like find the whole process quite like stressful I think because also you love the songs so much and then suddenly you're putting them out there and that might change your relationship with them if other people don't like them and I'm trying my hardest not to let that happen. And I find that when you've written a song there's so much like possibility and what if and like I love this and you're playing it to people and

getting excited about it that maybe some songs should just remain that yeah I find like releasing it just kind of sucks the joy out of it it sucks the joy out of the creative process and the gigs but you can't really do the shows without the releasing part. Why does it suck the joy out of it? I think just, like, if you release a song that you love that either gets, like, critically savaged or doesn't do well commercially, you then start to, like, doubt the song, even if you love the song. And I'm trying to really take myself out of that and just be like, I like the song and that's what matters, but you can't help but be swayed by public opinion, I guess.

You have had, you've never been massively loved by the critics. No. Although I had one album that was really loved by the critics, that's my least commercially successful album. What's that? Autumn Variations. It's a good album. Thank you. But that was the one that they were all like, we like this, and no one else did.

Because it felt maybe, what was it about that one that appealed to people do you think? Not to the people. Why did the critics like that one? No, I don't fucking know. Probably, to be honest, like I like- It felt very personal, I think. Yeah, I think that record was really fun to make because it felt like a no-holes-barred, sing-whatever and like there wasn't as much of a thought process in putting it together. Like this album, Play, I wrote hundreds of songs for and whittled them down. Do you care how they do? I'd say yeah, but I'd say you have you have to put the like put it in perspective of what the record is

So play is a pop album. So I'm trying to make popular music. That's why it's a pop album You want it to connect with people Yeah, and I want people to dance at shows and have fun But whereas Orton Variations is very much an introspective album that I made I put out my own label and that was kind of it Lived lived a life for two weeks and then can be discovered by other people. So with that record it was a bit less of, I care about how this sounds. Obviously there's like certain elements of like, I obviously want people to like it. I'm not-

You're still a UK number one, wasn't it? Yeah. Who in the pop ecosystem do you regard as something of a peer or a rival? Arrival is a weird word because I... I know it's a bit loaded, isn't it? I've always... Elton taught me this actually, was whenever a new... Because I remember Shawn Mendes came out 2013 and I had had my time as the new artist and

Shawn was coming out and being the new thing. And I remember sort of wondering, I was like, Oh, Sean's coming out, Sean, all the kids love Sean. Shit. Is that, does that mean it's over for me? And I remember I knew him at the time. I, again, I tried to, I'd spoken to him about signing him and, and I remember being like, but I really like him and I'm really happy for him and he's 15 and actually that's a great thing that he's coming through. And I remember to having that approach to it. And then I speaking to Elton about it and Elton just being like, whenever that happens, just like get to know them because you'll always want to root for them. So every time that there's been a new singer songwriter that's come through, like every single year, there's always

like a new great singer songwriter that comes through. I'll take them on tour or get to know them in other ways and feel like we feel like a community and that you can root for them rather than feeling threatened. Because it's like, this is what I'm saying about a rivalry thing. There's not rivalry in music. It's not like the Olympics where you race and someone gets the gold medal. It's a career and you can release music and people can like it and they can come to your shows. But no one is not coming to my show because they're going to a Sean show. They'll go to both. It's not zero sum. There's times in my career where other male artists have done better than me at the time,

but it hasn't stopped me doing Music that I love or people connecting with it, you know Just because someone has done better at that time doesn't mean that the music that I released at that time wasn't received favorably amongst fans and I think that they're like the rivalry element of it is Everyone has their moment. It's peaks and troughs. I've I've had years where I'm massive I've had years where I'm massive, I've had years where I'm not. I go up and down, but there's a consistency of people always to come to the concerts and they always end up listening to the music eventually. And the rivalry thing, yeah, it doesn't really enter into it. And to be honest, I don't want to have that energy. If I go to an award show, I don't want to have energy in the room of someone that I't like. I'd rather like go there. They're uncomfortable enough anyway. I'd rather go

there and be like, oh, my mates are here. This is great. Which is what it's been for, you know, the whole time. Like I'd actually never, I'd never met Sam. Sam Fender came through maybe like five or six years ago and I'd never met Sam but I'd heard Will We Talk in the morning, that song and I remember just being like I like this song therefore I'm gonna tell him I like this song just so he knows that I like this song and hopefully like we'll meet somewhere down the line so I messaged him just being like I really like this song I still haven't met him but I at least know that there's a connection somewhere of like, I don't know, mutual respect I guess, you know, rather than like unknown.

And yeah, I think it's the healthiest way to be. How are you doing? Are you good? I'm good. You good? That wasn't a threat. I was just pointing my finger at you. Yeah, I'm good. I felt like I needed to put my finger. We're in no rush, by the way. I'm not in a rush. I appreciate that.

Yeah. One thing I, because I've never seen you, this is a little embarrassing. I've never seen you perform live. That's not embarrassing. It is what it is. I'd love to, but I didn't realise before prepping for this that you basically perform a lot of the time just on your own. Like there's no backing band, no backing vocals, you do it with a loop pedal. Feels like a bit of a high wire act, like you're just kind of doing each bit and then if it goes wrong... I love that though. It's real, real high stakes whenever you play and it's not, you can't

ever like sit back. It's nerves and this has to go right. Like if you mess up one thing, you and that's also what's great is if you do mess up, the audience love it. They love human elements of a show. So I'll mess up and go, at least you know it's live. And then you start again and people love seeing the process of building it again. So it's, I love it. I think there's, there's no, no better feeling song wise than trying out a new song and being like, this could go terribly and then getting it right. It's kind of, I guess it's kind of like riding a bicycle

for the first time and it being a little bit shaky and then getting on the track and then suddenly you're really excited. It's fun. I get so frustrated learning them though, cause it's kind of like, not so doku, but like you kind of, it's so in an order and if you mess up one of the order you then have to start again.

I was going to say, if you mess it up, you just erase that layer. Yeah, but I practice it enough times that when I do it live hopefully that doesn't happen. But it's an order of like 27 different components that you have to do in order in exact timing and if you fuck any of them up you have to start again. How are you what do you have thoughts on AI? Yeah I do have a lot of thoughts on it actually I think that um on the macro level and this is sort of comedic, but also true, after like 70 years of making movies about AI killing us, why the fuck are we still funding it?

And also on the other side of things, if you're taking lots of jobs away from human beings and there's lots of human beings being created every single day. That's not going to make for a great world in 20 years' time if there's a lack of jobs, as well as technology that's smarter than us. I don't know what's that wrong with just sticking at a certain point. There's a certain point where it just kind of goes too far and I think AI is getting to a point, especially like with music and art and films and you know, they had the Hollywood strikes because extras were just going to get cloned and put in movies.

Like that's not cloned. Writers would be replaced like first drafts would be done by them. That's not healthy. Like that's not like just regardless of the product, because the product itself would be shit anyway. I think that all things need heart in them and it needs human heart and I don't think AI can replace how you feel on that day or how you feel writing a thing or making a movie that moves you.

I don't think that that's ever going to be a thing. But just aside from that, people need jobs. Don't take those things away. Like if you're an extra, that's your fucking bread and butter. And then suddenly you're going to be replaced by a computer. Like I guess it's all a cost thing at the end of the day. But yeah, I find it just a bit creepy, really. It is a bit creepy. Especially like all these fucking, I saw a picture of me and my wife holding up a baby scan yesterday saying that we were having our third baby. Someone found it on Facebook. I'm not on Facebook, but I got sent this thing on Facebook just saying

we're having our third baby and it was this weird AI picture and even just stuff like that. And it was faked up. It's faked up and it's such obviously a small thing like, but stuff like that, misinformation everywhere. I just don't think it's healthy. So weird. Yeah. You know, have you used any of the AI audio apps?

No, I did. Do you know what happens if you put in, make a song that sounds a bit like Ed Sheeran? Oh, do you know what? I was being shown one by a friend of mine and it is freaky. Like freaky. We wrote a song that we were going to pitch to an artist to sing and they said, oh, we can just put their voice in it and hear how it sounds and it's me singing, but it's this other artist's voice. And that was like very freaky.

Because when I tried it, it wouldn't do it. It was like, it said we can't, I said, do it, make a song about Ed Sheeran appearing on the Louis Theroux podcast in an Ed Sheeran style. And there were two things. One was like, we can't, it was like, we cannot put in Ed Sheeran. Like it was like, it's a copyright issue. We cannot do in the style of a specific individual. So I was like, okay, fine. Upbeat poppy folk style. And it kind of got past the gatekeeper, but it still sounded quite weird. Maybe that's reassuring. I don't think that they're ever gonna be able

to replace feeling and heart. And I don't think you're ever gonna watch anything on TV that's made by AI that's gonna make you cry, personally. Do you, you know, one of the criticisms that's levelled at you by the critics is that, oh, it's safe, right? It's middle of the road.

By the way, I read that on Azizam on that it was middle of the road and safe. Like there's not much in that song that felt safe. Like when I was said that I wanted that to be my first single, everyone said that's a real risk to do. Who said that? All of the record company. And it felt like a risk and I put it out there. I feel like the critics sometimes, the go-to thing to say is, oh it's bland. But I don't know, I think if you listen back to my discography, at the beginning of my career I was an acoustic singer-songwriter who, as, like a folk balladeer and I'd say there's loads of different tunes

that I've put out that are not that and that in itself for me is pretty interesting. Do you care what they say? I don't know, I got in a bit of hot water about two years ago because I said I didn't really think that there was a place in the world for music reviewers at the moment when stuff like Spotify exists and you can just listen to something yourself freely. And I had a load of music reviewers come out and sort of like have a go at me for that. But there's no, there's nothing to be gained by picking a fight with the critics.

There's no battle. I have an opinion on them, they have an opinion on me. It's how the world works. How many streams has Shape of You got? Over four billion. Is that on YouTube? No, it's got six, over six billion on YouTube. That seems quite a lot. It's quite a lot. Not as much as Baby Shark though. How many has Baby Shark got? I think Baby Shark's the most. Baby Shark used to be like the hit of Our House and now My Kids Are On to Moana. It's a good movie. I love those songs. You were the most streamed artist in the world in what 2014? And 2017 and then not since. But I kind of feel like I had my peak with Divide and I'm kind

of coasting now. I don't know if I'll ever get back up there again, but I'm kind of... The level of fame that that was, that was like my unhappiest. Yeah, I know that's like a very cliched thing to say, but I'm much more happy with the balance that I've got now. Why were you unhappy at that time? I didn't really go out and do anything. I felt very claustrophobic and when I was going out I was working so I didn't really like live life and that was more of a mental thing rather than an actuality of me not being able to go out. There was like a block in my head

that was just paranoid and felt like the world was out to get me because you were so in demand or I would say the first six or seven years of my career just shifting who I am I guess and I think you know when people get famous and everyone goes oh they changed like I don't think I did at the beginning and I Think it took me seven years to change and prioritize different things and I think it took me seven years to change and prioritize different things and I think that's what led me to like being more like balanced and happy. Because you're saying that when you're really super successful, I mean you are obviously super successful but at that time when you had your first experience of globe bestriding success, like overwhelming

biggest artist of your type in the world that you felt like you were changing or people around you were changing? People around me were changing, which I think then led to me changing. I think I started off trying to be so adamant that I wasn't going to change and that I would do everything that everyone asked and just be available the whole time. I don't know, there are certain people in your life that are there to look out for you and look after you and certain people that are there just to abuse the trust and friendship and you know, bleed you dry I guess. Professional people or friends or either of?

I think both. I think it's a minefield. I think it's a minefield. I think celebrity and fame affects people in different ways. And one of the biggest effects was not even on me, it was on my family and friends. And I don't know, I always feel weird that how difficult my brother has it wherever he goes. He's all people always asking about me and like I just want him to live a normal life and my celebrity is kind of like Affected him, but he has no benefits of it. It's not like he has me I get to go on stage and play the song that I'm promoting. He just kind of has the like aftershock of That and yeah, I feel really protective over my brother. He's a composer. Yeah. Of classical. Classical yeah. So is it the sense of people around you that you

that you no longer fully trust your circle? Yeah circle, family, old friends that you've known for years that suddenly they do something that... sell a story or photographs or... Lots of things, but it's like, and I found myself just being really cutthroat with if ever there was like one thing that happened, I'd be like, right, done with that person and being very, very like protective by the end of it. Can we talk about the trials for a second? Of course, yeah. I think that was a big thing for you. You know, you could look at that as an outsider and like it's a music copyright case, another

day at the office kind of thing, but it wasn't that, was it? It was some... Do you know, I think it was, it was really, really necessary to do. It might not have been me who it was necessary to do it, but it was really necessary for someone to do. I think that it's been a behind the scenes thing for ever since I've been in the industry. You release a song, this happens to every single artist by the way and most artists settle out of court quietly and no one hears about it and it just sort of goes away. But you do that two or three times and then that just becomes the norm. Even when like you're so adamant you haven't done anything wrong and

that had happened a few times where I was like I haven't done anything wrong. Should we sketch it out for the listeners what happened? Because a little bit of Shape of You sounded like No Scrubs, was it? No. That was a weird scenario, actually, because I basically made Shape of You, and it had an interpolation of No Scrubs. We went to clear it, but the song was coming out too soon,

so it didn't get cleared in the time that it came out. Then the song came out, and then we cleared it. So it wasn't like there was a claim. it came out. Right. Then the song came out and then we cleared it. So it wasn't like there was a claim. We had gone to them and said, there's an interpolation in this song, which actually helped us a lot in the court case, because there were so many instances of, if I had taken influence or sampled a song, we'd sorted it out. So Shape of You was in the British courts. Got you. Thinking out loud was in the American courts.

I got sued at the same time pretty much for both of them and I in my heart of hearts knew that I hadn't done anything wrong and I basically put my money where my mouth was and my time where my mouth was and said I'm gonna I'm gonna show that I didn't do anything wrong and very loud was the estate of Marvin Gaye say No, it was the estate of Ed Townsend. Right? was the estate of Marvin Gaye Singh. No, it was the estate of Ed Townsend. Right, so Ed Townsend's estate said, this sounds a lot like, let's get it on. I think that they basically had, I mean I know their lawyer, I watched their lawyers

work, like they weren't, they didn't, they weren't musicians basically and I think had they had musicians to give them advice. Once we were in court and you have professional musicologists, like we had a brilliant guy called Larry who basically sat up there and just laid it all out and everyone went, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. This is a common chord sequence and actually it's not exactly the same. All of that and it had been used prior to Let's Get It On. I don't know, it felt really weird in both courtrooms and it's such a toxic environment to be in as well because like, I don't know, there's just lots of hate in the room and I'm there because I'm getting

accused of being a thief and I'm wanting to prove that I'm not a thief, they're there because they think that I've stolen their song and you're kind of like having to say that but through two lawyers kind of shouting at each other whereas, I don't know. As I was saying in the court case, it's like someone owning the colour blue with art. You can't own a chord sequence. If you own that chord sequence then what about all the songs that came before that chord sequence? Can then they now sue you and then at what point does that end? You go and find the first person that did the chord sequence or do you just go chords can be put together and sung to? You know, it's a really dangerous precedent to set. I know your time is precious. Have you got another minute or two?

Yeah, I've got, I was going to leave at five, which is like 15 minutes. Perfect. How's your another minute or two? Yeah, I've got, I was going to leave at five, which is like 15 minutes. Perfect. How's your work life balance? Much better now. Much better now. I'd say, um, Better than when? Uh, well, when I was 20, 21, 22. But do you think, you know, that thing that hits you, cause in a way when you're, when you're younger, you can be consumed by work that has its own obstacles, but you don't have a wife or children who are going take the hit and then suddenly you have kids and you're

actually you know you've got this center of gravity to your life. Well and also there's like more meaning to the mundane. But would you have rules and whatnot? How do you manage demands on your time? I try not to do more than really a week away and not really like on the trot and I always finish if I'm in the studio I'll work nine till three so in school hours so I can drop off and pick up or whatever and I don't know just always try and make time I think. There's a great documentary series on Disney, four parts, what's it called? Some of it all.

Some of it all. It was what, two, three years ago? Yeah. And you were going through a difficult year. Did you watch it? Yeah, I watched all of it. Yeah, it's really well done. You were going through a lot.

You were dealing with the loss of Jamal, your wife's illness, and then there's a moment in Union Chapel where you start crying on stage. This isn't really a question, it's an observation. Do you feel like you're out the other side of all of that? Yeah, I really do actually, like way more so. When Jamal died, and it was at the same time as the court case, same time as Cherry was going through her stuff and my friend Shane died literally like a week later and it was, I didn't feel like I could talk to anyone about it just because I don't know, I feel like I've got so many blessings in my life that

when real life shit happens like I can't unhear the, but look at, look at everything's good, you know, like I can't unhear that. Um, so I started seeing a therapist at that time and I stopped seeing her like a year ago. And I feel like at that point, I've not like, I felt just a lot better. And I had this like cloud period where I still have my ups and downs, but I had a real cloud period where I still have my ups and downs, but I had a real cloud period where I couldn't get out of it. Related to everything that we were talking about. Just like it triggered something and I just couldn't bring myself to feel any happiness

or joy. I just was always sad. And I feel like I got out of that mostly through stuff like work-life balance and creation. Yeah, I mean creating this album was so fun. It's kind of like the balance of the both. It's the creating stuff that you love during the day and then having a wonderful evening with your family or morning. Like mornings are the best man because you can't if your kids wake up and they're not

knackered. I've just did a jigsaw puzzle with my daughter this morning for an hour and That was enough. It's great. But of Lego. Yeah, they got into Lego. Yeah I'm totally will ferrell from the Lego movie though like I'll help make the thing and then my daughters will want to just take it apart and I'll go And just have to let them do you know, I mean? Yeah. So like ingrained in me. You've got a Lego. I find like I'm doing the Lego and they're not really doing it. And then one day you come down, you realize you're doing Lego on your own.

Ah, it's good for the brain, isn't it? Kind of, but it's like, I don't know, I just don't think my kids liked Lego as much as I did. And then it was a strange. Yeah. My thing with Lego is Lego is these you make a massive thing Say I made the Imperial Star Destroyer Over Christmas one time and then I was just sort of like where do I fucking put this that doesn't look really weird What that you made the Death Star or I have made the Death Star? Yeah, no, I made the big Imperial Star Destroyer and I ended up I have a bar at home. It must take a while

the big Imperial Star Destroyer and I ended up, I have a bar at home. It must take a while. It took a couple of weeks. I just put it on top of the bar and it just lives there with the Millennium Falcon and the, but it, I don't know, there's some, I don't know, can you display them in the house without looking a bit fucking weird? It's hard though, cause what else do you do with them? Danny Dye was on Desert Island Discs and they said- I loved his Desert Island Discs. Did you listen to that?

Yeah, I loved his Desert Island Discs. And do you to that? Yeah, I loved his Desert Island Discs. Do you remember what his one luxury item was? It was the Lego Death Star so that he could make it. Over and over again. I'm taking him to the West Ham game in Ipswich. I slagged off, I didn't slag off. I was asked about fish and chips and I was like, you kind of have to see the seaside to eat them and I wouldn't necessarily want to eat

them in London and he took a big offence to that and then said something about it and then... What, online somewhere? No, I think he got interviewed. It was a jokey affair. He was like, yeah, he had a pop at me and I got in contact with him and just said, come to Ipswich. So you're going to do it? Yeah, it's going to be fun. I love Danny. We used to have Danny Dyer nights on tour We had it I went on IMDB got his whole filmography

And we just went from the start to the end and watched every single Danny Dyer. I'm interviewing him next week Yeah, I'll be seeing him Sunday. You can give him a briefing. Yeah, the thing about Louie is he's a cheeky fucker No, thank you, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. That was really nice of you to come by. Ed Sheeran, in the house. Okay, that was Ed Sheeran. Thank you Ed for coming by. Okay, that was Ed Sheeran. Thank you, Ed, for coming by. Quite special talking to someone at that level, that echelon, that altitude, if you will, a mountaineer of the heights of pop success. He's an absolute colossus of pop music. And yet, nevertheless, like all of us, a human, a human dealing with human problems, human travails of wanting to continue to be successful, wanting to put out good work and have it be

liked. You know, there's little glimmers of, dare I say it, vulnerability, you know, when he talks about young bucks, young pups, interlopers, insurgents, the younger people coming in, hoppers we used to call them in the streets, young hoppers who come and want to, they think they can sell on your block. And I'm dangerously continuing that metaphor. And then you're like, I'm the OG here. Or am I?

Am I too old to survive? And you forget that. To me, I'm so old that to me Ed Sheeran still feels like a new kid on the block. I don't mean literally like a member of that group. I mean, someone who's just arrived still having hits, but he's so many albums in now. He's starting to feel that elder statesman energy.

New additions to the bingo card. One is if I say, have you watched my documentaries? Or any variant thereof? Does it count if they bring up the subject? Yes, it still counts. If I go with it. If I say like, I'd rather not talk about that, it seems big headed, then don't mark it off. But if I say like, I thought you'd never ask,

even if it's ironic, or if I make any comment that seems to elicit further exploration of the subject of my work, that's check that off your bingo card, and also jiggle jiggle coming up. I think have you watched my fucking documentaries might turn out to be the I think Have You Watched My Fucking Documentaries might turn out to be the easiest to mark off bingo item. If you listen to the John Wilson episode, it seemed to mainly consist of not just me saying Have You Watched My Documentaries, but then in the outro me talking about nice to talk to someone who's watched my documentaries. That was my main takeaway.

I have disappeared up my own bunghole. Other Elton's. I said, I'll get back to you. And I was forgetting guest of the pod, Ben Elton. Is it different if it's a surname? I don't think so. Ben Elton definitely is called Elton. He's a guy called Elton Wellesby Aaron. I won't tell you what he said it was so boring. In the entire USA approximately 15,505 people, children, adults and seniors currently bear the name Elton. That is 0.00% of all living Americans. I know, zero. That is statistically zero, but that's 15,000 people. Most famous people named Elton, number one is Elton John.

But there is also Elton Britt, Elton Dean, Elton Hayes, and Elton Jangees. Elton Jangees is a South African rugby player. We've got enough on Elton, I think. It would be great if you could give the show a follow on your preferred podcast platform. And if you're listening to the podcast rather than watching it, shame on you. Join me on Spotify. We're fully visualized. It's like a shitty TV show. Too much? It's like a kind of punk TV show. It's like a TV show. It is a TV show.

I've put some clips from this series on my YouTube channel to whet your appetite. Wet with an H. Why? Because it means sharpen, like wetting a knife on a stone. That's at official Louis Theroux, all one word if you want to check it out. Wet. W-H-E-T. Well done Millie for spelling that right. Right, I think that's it. Apart from the all-important credits, the producer was Millie Choo, the assistant producer was Artemis Irvin, the production manager was Francesca Bassett and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira.

This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.