The Louis Theroux Podcast - S5 EP7: Danny Dyer on battling addiction, UFO obsessions, and tackling Shakespeare

Starting point is 00:00:00 1212. Are you there? Hello, welcome to the Louis Theroux podcast. Today I'm joined by actor, presenter and recently ordained national treasure, Danny Dyer. Growing up in East London during the 80s, Danny's breakthrough roles include Moff in Human Traffic and Chelsea Hooligan Tommy Johnson in 2004's The Football Factory. The success of these roles was double edged, leading to Danny being typecast in hard man roles. That was an era when I first came across him. He was a sort of resident of the lads mags

Starting point is 00:00:49 of the early 2000s. He was the man that many young people, young men aspired to be. He had swagger. He was charismatic and unapologetically working class and always gave good quote, which often landed him in hot water. He kind of came unstuck in various ways and then was rehabilitated after joining the cast

Starting point is 00:01:12 of EastEnders in 2013 in the role of Mick Carter. He was on the show for nine years. Outside of film and TV, Danny had a significant working and personal relationship with playwright and Nobel laureate Harold Pinter, first featuring in his play Celebrations in 2000. We talk about the significance of this relationship in the conversation. It's an unlikely pairing, which is why Danny's quite often asked about it. Although maybe it shouldn't be unlikely. Harold Pinter, the, as I say, Nobel Prize winning author, acclaimed the highest levels of the literary salons of London and New York. And then there's Danny, who was better known for his roles in these sort of soccer hardman

Starting point is 00:01:58 roles. And nevertheless, they had this relationship of mutual respect and a kind of mentor mentee type bonding. Danny also dabbled in the noblest art form of them all, documentary making. He presented The Real Football Factory and Danny Dyer's Deadliest Men. So we talk about, well, our So we talk about, well, our common interests in that respect. More recently, Danny played the self-made tech millionaire and surprise sex symbol Freddie Jones in the Disney Plus adaptation of Jilly Cooper's 1988 bonkbuster Rivals. It's got a lot of rumpy-pumpy in it. It's fun.

Starting point is 00:02:42 I haven't finished watching it, but it's, I mean, a lot of people are talking about it, aren't they? It's an ensemble, so Danny's not the main focus, but he's a significant player and brings a kind of low-key charm to the role. With his moustache, his caterpillar-like moustache. This one was recorded in person in May this year. Danny was here to promote the second series of his hit comedy Mr Big Stuff, which is due out in July on Sky and Now TV. He won a BAFTA for it. We talk about that. I was there as well. A warning, there is strong language in the episode, obviously, and adult themes including substance abuse. All that and much much more coming up. Double espresso. How are you feeling?

Starting point is 00:03:48 Thank you so much. Amazing. Really good. I'm, you know, just incredibly busy. Yeah. So it's about juggling stuff. Yeah. And, you know, and tired and still having a huge clan and grandkids and all that sort of stuff.

Starting point is 00:04:06 So it's a bit like, sort of wake up and go, what am I doing today? Yeah. But I'm grateful. It's good to be busy. It is. It feels like you're in your prime. It feels like, I mean, I'm sure you get this a lot. It feels like you've sort of arrived at some sort of moment of everyone saying like,

Starting point is 00:04:23 do you know what that daddy dies brilliant I mean you've just won a BAFTA right yeah, yeah wasn't my night unfortunately. You've got something I've got three, but I don't like to make a big thing out of it. Wow free. Yeah, three one two three I don't know if I'll get another one. I think that one's enough for me. You know I Was really surprised. I got that I thought that I've been around a long time and I felt that maybe I thought that I've been around a long time and I felt that maybe, you know, they'd acknowledge me, which is fine. My Who Do You Think You Are was actually up for one, it won it.

Starting point is 00:04:53 Which was a legendary, for people who don't know, that was a legendary episode. They say that's the best ever episode of Who Do You Think You Are. Have you heard that? Well, yeah, but I've also heard a lot of stuff from these professors who sort of pissed on my parade by saying that, well, everyone's related to King Edward III.

Starting point is 00:05:11 But then- We should, for people in Radio Land, if you didn't see it, you should watch it, but basically, Danny, you discovered that you were a descendant of King Edward III, but also Thomas Cromwell- Yeah, that was the one who was more exciting to me. Yeah. Because he was my, he's only my fifth- Not Oliver Cromwell. No. Thomas Cromwell. Yeah that was the one who was more exciting to me. Yeah. Because he was my, he's only my fifth. Not Oliver Cromwell. No. Thomas Cromwell. Although actually they were related as well but that's another story. Yeah, 15 times great-grandfather direct. To Thomas. To Thomas. Who was sort of the hatchet man to Henry VIII, famously immortalised by

Starting point is 00:05:41 Hilary Mantell in her books. Yes, Wolf Hall. Wolf Hall. Fascinating man. A man who... From Patney. ...with his last act before he had his nut chopped off, should we say, was he made sure his son survived by marrying him off to Elizabeth Seymour, my nan, sister of Jane. Right. Jane who was married to Henry VIII.

Starting point is 00:06:05 Who was the only woman he really loved apparently. So therefore he left Gregory alone and then went on to have a kid and they went on to have a kid. So if he hadn't have done that, it's mad all that stuff. If he hadn't have got his son saved, then I wouldn't be here. So there's something in that and I love the fact that he was working class, he was out of Putney. From Putney. And he went to Florence. Quite posh now though Putney.

Starting point is 00:06:27 Well, some parts but he went to Florence he learnt languages he became a lawyer and that's right and he had no right to you know I would never have known and none of my family knew he's a couple of old photos knocking about a little chat with me dad in a pub and he brought out some old photos. But no one knew at all what our background was. So I suppose you've got the best people in the world working for you, running around and finding this stuff out. And so, you know, who would have thought

Starting point is 00:06:58 my one would have ended up, you know, my last scene being Westminster Abbey. Yeah. Although I'm not a royalist in any way, shape or form, so it didn't really excite me too much there, but the Thomas Commonwealth thing did. And then I went on to watch Warfall after I discovered that he was my grandfather.

Starting point is 00:07:12 It hits different, you know, because you sort of really do feel... Mark Rylance. The wonderful Mark Rylance, someone I worked with a long time ago as well, someone I've not come across since. One of my first jobs when I was 17 was with Mark Rylance, and I've said this before. Really? On stage? No, it was a BBC Two one-off show called Lovin'. come across since. One of my first jobs when I was 17 was with Mark Rylance and I've said this before. Really? On stage?

Starting point is 00:07:26 No, it was a BBC Two one-off show called Lovin'. It was me, Mark Rylance, Georgina Cates and it was set to a bit like Downton. It was set in a big manor house. He was the butler, I was his pantry boy. It was set during the Second World War and it was sort of a love triangle type vibe. But it was really early days for me, and it was the first time I'd come across, should we say, a proper actor. And I was fascinated by this man. It's quite a shy, meek, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:56 hardly any presence until you said action. And then I went, oh, wow, that's what acting is. Kind of live. You know, you just could take your eyes off him, and then they'd say, wow, that's what acting is. Come alive. You know, you just could take your eyes off him and then they'd say cut and he'd go back into. So he really did become the, and I just watched him. You know, we got him really well, but I just watched him, studied him.

Starting point is 00:08:14 He had a dictaphone, that's how long ago it was. It was the early 90s. And he had a dictaphone, he would listen to notes. And I mean, he was just fascinating to be in front of. He obviously went on to be, I think, artistic director at the Globe, synonymous with Shakespeare. Have you done Shakespeare? No, I don't think it's for me. Really?

Starting point is 00:08:35 No, I understand that it's, as actors, especially you've got your Hamlet and all that, that's what you should be doing. I don't get it, I don't understand it, I struggle with the rhythm of it, I totally respect everyone that does it, I absolutely do, and I just don't feel it, I don't find it funny. And some people laugh at it, and I go, well, I don't know what we're laughing at here,

Starting point is 00:09:02 I just can't. So for me, acting is the musicality of words and the rhythm of words and making words interesting. And I've tried with reading Shakespeare and I just don't get it, understand it. My little brain won't, you know, it just doesn't, it doesn't warm to it for some reason. So who knows in 10 years time when I become an older boy, maybe I will get amongst it, but it doesn't excite me. I need to be excited by dialogue. Mason- You were talking about who do you think you are and one of the surprises in reading up on you was that you were, how do I say it, not totally sober when making

Starting point is 00:09:46 that. Well who do you think you are? Yeah. Well I suppose I'll be really open about my life, probably far too open about my struggles and... But that's been part of your gift in a way, is that you've sort of not been shy of oversharing. I think it goes back to my working class roots, just being an honest authentic person and not ever trained, I never trained.

Starting point is 00:10:05 And I certainly never had media training or anything like that. And I think I've always just been me. And that's why I think I divide people, because either you get me or you don't, and that's fine. I suppose I do talk with a slight swagger. I swear a lot, I know that. And I probably swear more when I'm nervous,

Starting point is 00:10:21 but I was brought up in a very sweary environment. and I'm nervous, but I was brought up in a very sweary environment. But yeah, I struggled a lot with, especially when I became famous and whatever that is or what that means, you lose touch with who you are, I think, and I think this goes for most people that are famous, whatever level of fame you've got and whatever you represent to people,

Starting point is 00:10:42 and I suppose that I represented, I mean, my first film that made me famous was a film called Human Traffic, which is completely about hedonism. And I was the craziest one on it. I suppose I took the most drugs on it. And, you know, that came out in 99. So, you know, all of a sudden people just wanted to take loads of drugs with me, which I was down for.

Starting point is 00:10:58 And you were 22? Because you were born in 77. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just so my Danny had just been born. She was like two or two and a half. And you were 19. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just so my Danny had just been born she was like two or two and a half. You were 19. Yeah, just turned, I just turned 19 when Danny was born. That's, I mean that's, that's... Yeah, I think as men, I don't want to generalise, I think we struggle paternally, it takes years. I think when you have a child at 18, 19, you know, you don't know who you are yet, and yet you've got a little baby in a crib that

Starting point is 00:11:25 needs to be brought up and nurtured and looked after and so... You were full-time with her mum at that time. Yep. You'd met Joanne when you were 13. When I was in school with her, yeah. Yeah, so you'd been together six years at least. Yep. Was it a planned, can I ask that? No, no, not really, of course it wasn't. You know, she was always very maternal anyway, and you know, she just assured us that it would be fine. But I did struggle with it. You know, I didn't quite know, especially because of the younger days of being an actor as well, which is such an insecure job.

Starting point is 00:11:57 And you know, I was going through a bit of a bad stage with getting roles, because as a kid I got every role and then I got to an age where I couldn't play a man or a child anymore because my voice broke but couldn't grow a beard, big tall sort of gangly so I started to get a lot of rejection at the time that the baby was born and I thought oh well how do I provide now and my joke was even saying listen maybe you've got to give this up you know you've got to think of another route it just I've said this a few times, it just gave me a different drive and ambition.

Starting point is 00:12:27 What would have been your plan B? Did you have a profession? Not really, I didn't have one. Well, I joined a temping agency and obviously unskilled just to go out and labor. Yeah. So I was a lift operator for a little while on a building site, just pressing the lift up and down,

Starting point is 00:12:43 sweeping up sawdust, doing doing all that sort of stuff that really hard loading skips and every time I loaded that skip I thought this ain't for me there's something else for me. But you were saying that when you got famous you lost the plot a bit is that what you were saying? Yeah I did yeah of course I did. Your identity and you've also said that... It became a bit of a cartoon character and I played up to it a lot I didn't quite know how to deal with it or people knowing who you are it's a huge Your identity and you've also said that... I became a bit of a cartoon character and I played up to it a lot. I didn't quite know how to deal with it or people knowing who you are. It's a huge thing to give away. So, you know, like your privacy and that.

Starting point is 00:13:11 Was this on the back of Human Traffic or...? Well, it started from Human Traffic, I suppose, because it was a really well-received film. There was Football Factory. Was that soon afterwards? Football Factory was about five years after. Because that's a few years... Goodbye Charlie Bright. 2004. Charlie Bright, I wasn't the lead in that. And it wasn't really... He didn't really do the business.

Starting point is 00:13:28 It should have done Charlie Bryant. We released that film. It was my first film with Nick Love, who I went on to make another five films with. We brought it out on a really hot summer. And no one went to the cinema. And it died a death. And that was the days of DVD.

Starting point is 00:13:40 And DVDs were obviously my saviour for a lot of my career, really, because a lot of my films did die a death at the cinema. But then you always had DVDs to obviously my saviour for a lot of my career really because a lot of my films did die deaf at the cinema but then you always had DVDs to fall back on and I was sort of known as DVD Dan for a little while. Were you? Which I don't mind. Listen, I didn't give a shit about that because I did a lot of jobs where they would just

Starting point is 00:13:59 put my face on a DVD and it would sell over 20, 20,000 units, then it's a success. Really? So that was a whole period of my life which was- So they would not do well at the cinema, but then they do well on DVD? Yeah. What was your, what do you think is your best Nick Love collaboration?

Starting point is 00:14:15 Well, I think the one that's probably spoke about in the highest regard is probably either the football factory or the business. Yeah. Football factory I watched to prepare for this, it holds up. Like, it's not like high art, right? It's not the godfather. No, I don't think we make films... But it's very watchable, it's got good character development.

Starting point is 00:14:36 Well, it's authentic, you know, especially now that elite people are making elite films for other elite people, and they'll chuck working-class people in it now and again, but, you know, Nick being a working-class... Well, he's actually Nick being a working class, well he's actually a middle class kid. From South East London? Yeah, but you know, the people we put in it, as you can see, are real people.

Starting point is 00:14:51 We should say it was based on the John King novel, Football Factory. Yeah, but this is the brilliant thing what Nick Love does is that he, I'm the lead coach, it's my story, and I am a hooligan and I'm a drug-taking hooligan and I swear a lot and I'm a bit of a loon, but actually I'm questioning it. So he has this thing where I'm sort of the anti-hero. I'm not sort of celebrating it. I'm going, oh, is this worth it? Meeting up every Saturday,

Starting point is 00:15:16 having a chair up with complete strangers and then going back to work. It's tribalism. It's a very controversial film because people were saying we were glamorizing it and all this sort of stuff. Who said that? Well, usually the critics and stuff like that or people that want to commentate on it, of course.

Starting point is 00:15:34 People that probably didn't like the film. But we went on tour around the country and we sat in cinemas with hooligans. So we went to Cardemas with hooligans. So we went to Cardiff with the Soul Crew. When you released it? Just before. Really? So pre that.

Starting point is 00:15:51 What was the Cardiff Crew called? The Soul Crew. The Soul Crew. And you know, you sit with them and then we watch it and of course you're sort of representing that culture and so you never quite know how it's going to go down. Some had some issues with the fact that they wasn't mentioned enough, you know, because they are all sort of rivals. I mean, if you think about it, it's quite childish, the whole thing.

Starting point is 00:16:10 You know, you know, Geysers running around and bashing each other up over what? But you can't ignore it. No. You know, it's again, something that's, you know, not so prevalent now. I think maybe in the lower divisions somewhat, but it is about belonging to something, it is that gang culture. Do you think it is more in the lower divisions? Well it would be now because there's not, because you know, it's, we'd call it in the

Starting point is 00:16:35 football factory, we call it the ready eye, which is the CCTV. So you know, we're living in a world of HD television now, so you know, the idea of being able to meet two miles away from the ground, which is what they would do, they're all on banning orders, so they'll go and meet a couple of miles away, have a big chair up, and then all slip off and go back to their wives and go back to... There's something fascinating about that for sure. Do you want... I mean, we're in a bit of a tangent, but it's something I'm interested in over the years. You're a documentary maker, like you made... Well made well I've made a couple but I'm not like

Starting point is 00:17:06 you I don't pitch these ideas I don't say that you're not on me but then one of the things that turned up while I was doing my research was someone said Danny Dyer is the people's Louis Theroux from 2017 it was an article in shortlist he has a quality which most television interviewers seem to lack he goes to meet those people with no preconceptions seems legitimately interested in them is more concerned with actually listening than talking at them his boyish enthusiasm and on it got me sick made me absolutely sick to read that but you few I was few I threw my through my computer across the room

Starting point is 00:17:40 no but you you come up with ideas and you pitch them and you've got energy. I only really did them. I'm assuming you took it. You really did. So 2017 I'm thinking... It was a revisit of World's Most Dangerous Men? Right, Danny Dyer's Deadliest Men. Deadliest Men.

Starting point is 00:17:55 This is something I didn't want to do. I did it to get on the property ladder and that's the truth. I've made a lot of films for no money and I thought, well when does the money start coming in? Because now I'm famous and I don't have't have any money so I was thinking so when does that start you know when do I start to live a life where I go oh actually it's worth it this fine because I can give my family a good life and that came along Bravo came along offered me this thing a lot of money for me for six weeks to run

Starting point is 00:18:22 around crazy that you'd be giving given more money being a TV documentary than in a hit movie. The film would become a success. When I made The Football Factory, I was on 500 quid a week. So it was equity minimum, which fine, it was my first lead role. So for then it was about an opportunity to go, can I hold the screen for an hour and a half, my story, can you care about me? That's when you start honing your craft. So you're not really entitled to money at that point. I went on to earn a lot of money on DVD weirdly.

Starting point is 00:18:53 So who got that money? Well, the company, the people that made it vertigo would have been vertigo, Nick maybe. You wouldn't get residuals from the DVDs. A little bit, but you get a point of a point of a point. Yeah, Hollywood accounting. You know, which is fine. And again, it was about how is it going to go down?

Starting point is 00:19:10 It went down really well and I proved that I could be a leading man. That's what you want as an actor. So anyway, then my profile rose and then they came to me, brother, and went, oh, he's quite famous now and he's sort of well known for that film. So let's go and delve a bit deeper and do the real football factories. You know, they pitched me the idea and I thought, fucking hell, wow. Okay, so I got to run around the country,

Starting point is 00:19:30 meeting fans of mine, because we was representing these people in this film. So I'd already got past the first barrier where they love me. So, you know, I'm meeting really naughty, dangerous people in pubs who never go on the telly but trusted me enough to go on the telly. And so I just sort of embraced it and thought, okay, you've got to commit, you know, do it and try and because what they tried to do was go, okay, Danny Dines on a journey of trying to find

Starting point is 00:19:58 out why people do it. You're never going to find out what it is. But they wanted me to always have sort of a Jerry Springer moment at the end of every ep. Which also went on to The Deadliest Men, where I sort of, you know, I try and sum up these characters. Which I really, I don't think you can do that. But it was a tough job. You give a lot away when you're walking around with a camera in your face, you know, of who you are. Well, especially you did because you did so many pieces to camera. Like you do an intro where you are. Well, especially you did because you did so many pieces to camera, like you'd do an intro where you're like in the car. So I've only watched one of these, but I watched it at the time, funnily enough.

Starting point is 00:20:31 It was the Pettie Doherty one, Irish gypsy traveller, bare knuckle fighter based in Salford outside Manchester. And then you arrive and he's a real character. Real character, yeah. He was 50 at the time, but he was built like a shithouse if I can use that expression and had been through some extraordinary Bare-knuckle fights and then my point really is just that you arrive and you're kind of holding it altogether with like constantly commenting to the camera Say I'm breaking it to be honest. Here I am. I don't know what's gonna go down me a coffee arriving here on a gypsy traveler site Yeah, it's taught I don't know what's gonna go down. Me, a cockney, arriving here on a gypsy traveler's site. I think probably turning it up a bit.

Starting point is 00:21:08 Well, you know, you've got to. You've been invited then. So they weren't really going to attack you. Well, listen. Ramping up the jeopardy a bit. You never know. Again, I think my fame and what I represented gets me past that first barrier. I mean, I think you would have struggled, Lou, no disrespect, if you walked into a traveler's site.

Starting point is 00:21:23 I've been to that one. Oh, that actual one? Do you know what? In Salford? Yes. And? Okay, this is my embarrassing confession. I don't know if it was because I'd seen or independently, I was thinking like, I need to make more shows in the UK.

Starting point is 00:21:36 What's an interesting world in the UK that is redolent of a little bit of secrecy? Maybe even perceptions of danger, whether they're fair or unfair. And I started thinking about travelers and traveler communities. And then with the bare-knuckle fighting, I thought, well, if you could see something like that, that's a great episode of something. Louis Theroux in the world of the Irish travelers. And then it's part of the research. I think that's how I came across your doc. And I thought, what a great character. I thought this is extraordinary. And then we filmed up there on the site for two or three days and got I think some of the same stories. He says to you one of the things

Starting point is 00:22:11 he says is oh shall I do the accent I'll eat you like a Yorkie bar. He was trying to make a point in the you know there's a dirty go. There's a fair go and a dirty go. So what he would do if it was a dirty go is he would bite their lip off and swallow it. And swallow it. So they couldn't stitch it back on. Or they'd bite the finger off and swallow it because there's no rules. Yeah there's no rules that's it. He would suck your eyeball out and snaffle it down like a gobstopper. You know you believe the man. You know because you know it's a very interesting way of life. Well you don't disbelieve it.

Starting point is 00:22:45 You just genuinely don't know. You're like, did you? Really? Re-revelers don't really go on the telly as well. This is the thing that's fascinating me. They don't. They don't really deal with the police, obviously, or... The authorities in general.

Starting point is 00:22:55 ...and a lot of cases. Hospitals, you know, they deal with their own stuff. They deal with their own disputes. They're their own community. And I find that fascinating. I mean, living there, I mean, I lived there. He got me a little caravan there. Well, how many?

Starting point is 00:23:04 But in Doc, you know, we can, man to man, we can do a lot of things. We can do a lot of things. We can do a lot of things. We can do a lot of things. We can do a lot of things. their own community and I find that fascinating. I mean living there, I mean I lived there and he got me a little caravan there. But how many, but in doc, you know we can, man to man we can say this, probably for a documentary you just do one night really right? I've done a couple. Did you? Yeah. Did you?

Starting point is 00:23:18 But I think that I was sort of used to it by then because I've done quite a few by, and you know because I think we did two series of Deadliest Men, so the second one, they wanted me to stay the night with them. You had to live with them. And I thought, well, I think it's a bit strong, you know, like. Well, you had your own caravan. Well, because they wanted me to be laying in bed going, oh God, I'm shitting myself.

Starting point is 00:23:34 You do send that up a little bit in a sense of, you know, I never really felt in danger. It was a couple of moments I had when I was in Poland, and, you know, it got a bit tricky. The thing is, is that you, you've got to remember that you're interviewing someone, you make them your subject,

Starting point is 00:23:48 but when they're talking about biting people's lips off or punching people or doing whatever they're doing, there are victims involved who will be watching it, who will have the hump with me in saying, oh, I'm celebrating it. When I'm not really, you've got to be neutral within these things, but you've got to win them over as well. And he took me under his wing it did get tricky one night in a boat He nutted someone and he jumped in a motor and left me on my own weirdly in the same pub shame walled was in there

Starting point is 00:24:12 That's right. That's all in the dog. So it's all quite odd to real but I never I never enjoyed doing it And I knew you didn't enjoy doing it No, but it got me on the property ladder. So actually it was a point to it So the point was it I could finally you know, put deposit down on a house and get out of all council estate. So I did move away from my, the area I was brought up in and we moved to Essex. A step up for us for sure. What about, you said that you think I'd struggle on the travellers' side

Starting point is 00:24:40 because what, they'd think I was a posh git and city-coming. Absolutely. You're fair game with them and I think that you sort of trying to understand them and looking at them from a white periscope is very different from me who can walk on there and of course some people you know didn't like me why would they? Some people don't trust cameras you know of course I'm on this journalistic thing which again it's almost me you know talking about them in a way like they are subjects, which again is a bit off putting for people, I get it, but at least I speak in a certain way. And I'd made films about violence and stuff like that.

Starting point is 00:25:13 Whereas you represent something different. So I could understand that they could maybe, not bully you, but tease you a bit, take the piss a bit. Bullying I can take, like in a weird way, that sort of- Masculinity thing. Go on. Just that's what I'm saying. In the sense of do they see you as a masculine man? And what's the answer? No. Can they imagine you have a fag hanging out of your mouth, you know, sort of swearing and, you know, just generally doing anything slightly naughty, you know what I mean? Yeah. Would you be friends with the old Bill? Probably.

Starting point is 00:25:42 You know what I'm saying? Like I can imagine you have a dinner party. You might know a DC. Yeah. You know, nothing wrong with that. Luke's talk. They would look at it as... Especially if you're surrounded by loads of them. I went to Appleby. Did you go to Appleby?

Starting point is 00:25:54 No. Yeah, that was the big one. We bailed on it after three nights. It was mainly because Paddy was also filming with the Channel 4 crew at the same time, but hadn't told us and we couldn't really... You can't do a documentary. It was like he had two wives, you know, and he was like, we were turning up on one day saying, all right, how's it going? And then he said, oh,

Starting point is 00:26:10 I can't film tomorrow. We're like, oh, why not? He said, I'm a bit busy. And then it turned out Channel 4 was there filming something else. Exactly. Because he also went on to do Big Brother after my thing. So no one knew who he was. He won it. He won it. So, so, and again, I think the traveling community frowned upon that because obviously, like I said, they don't really want to parade around on the television talking about their lives too much because it's a very much secret society. I found it fascinating. And I will say this, you know, I love my traveler fans, you know, I do now and again have travelers

Starting point is 00:26:37 come up to me and they're all Paddy's cousin, by the way, of course, and shake me and you know, whenever I have a fight with me and stuff and you know, I you know I love him. I get a lot of love for it, you know, and I thought why I've gone the other way slightly for the doc for the way Maybe and also just me all of a sudden becoming like what you do being a journalist on a journalistic Sort of crusade, you know that never sat right with me I did it purely to get an ass and I do I do think it came and backfired on me and still does slightly in a sense of,

Starting point is 00:27:09 you know, there's still a lot of people that just don't think I'm the worst actor ever. You know, they just don't, they just, he just plays himself. I think it's the most common one I get, but you know, the fact that, you know, some people can call me a good actor, they just find it laughable.

Starting point is 00:27:22 And I think it stems from, listen, you can't please everyone. Of course you can't and maybe there are people out there that think I'm rubbish but you know I think it stems from that stuff and me you know. The quote you gave in The Guardian was, if there's one thing I regret about my career it's that I didn't let my acting do the talking. Well yeah I think if you've got the luxury of, and there's a lot of actors out there that do press but don't. They drone on about nothing and unless you give away about your life the more exciting you are on screen as an actor aren't you? So you know if you've spoken as openly as I have and you know I've got a certain way with words,

Starting point is 00:28:00 tone of phrase and then you see me do it on a show, acting, then people, the people that supposedly know everything about acting would look at me and go, well, he's just playing himself. But again, I also think that actors play theirself, like, you bring a character to life but your toolbox is you. You know, your traumas and the most interesting parts about you is what you use to be a good actor. I've always been from the theory that just because you can do accents doesn't make you a chameleon.

Starting point is 00:28:36 You know what I mean? Most actors do do the same thing if you watch them closely enough. You know what I mean? Yeah. Very rare actors that Daniel Day-Lewis is, I'd say maybe Killian Killian Murphy's a real chameleon state. They never really do the same thing I mean I said it at the BAFTAs about Ryan Sampson if you know it's a good speech But I'd be back back at the BAFTA because the other things you won your BAFTA you went up you nailed the speech Thank you. I didn't think I did see I thought I completely fucked it up because what makes you say because I was so emotional

Starting point is 00:29:01 And I don't you didn't I don't you didn't't, you didn't stop crying. No, but I didn't know I was... Did you cry? No, I caught my breath a couple of times. You said, I want to pay tribute to Ryan Sampson, our creator of The Thing. You said, the best thing that ever came out of Rotherham. Then you said, which isn't saying a lot. Which is fair. Which was a good joke.

Starting point is 00:29:18 Did you have that one in your back pocket? Yeah, I had a few about him actually, but I couldn't get it out. I thought... All your other jokes. I thought, start with a joke. I went up there and obviously this time, you know, it's such a moment. It's such a moment. I looked at my two daughters, they were so stunning and they were crying and I thought, oh okay, so my opening line was, oh best comedy performance. It's because my acting was so bad, it was

Starting point is 00:29:43 funny. That got too much of a laugh. And I thought, okay, I've got them there. But then I thought, no, be grown up. Be, don't swear. You know, because I know people are going to expect you and I know it's a classy event. You dropped three F bombs, I think. Yeah, they cut around it lovely, by the way. I don't know how they did that. You said fuck three times. I know I did.

Starting point is 00:30:00 And each one got a laugh. It was only when I was choked. I went, fuck me, I'm choked. So, and I was. And they got a laugh. It was only when I was choked. I went, fuck me, I'm choked. So, and I was. And they got a laugh. And then I sort of had to breathe. And then I wanted to thank people because I've not really done that over the years. I've won awards before. And you probably should thank people.

Starting point is 00:30:15 So I wanted to thank Hailey Stirling, who was the producer on this, the oracle, just an amazing human being. And of course the other actors in this show, Mr. Big Stuff, which is such a clever show. It's a really good show. And you know, and I thought, you know, it was Ryan that wrote this for me.

Starting point is 00:30:28 He gave me this gift, like. Did he have you in mind when he wrote it? Yeah, he said to me, his story is this. We met on Plebs a long time ago. Plebs is a sitcom. Set in the Roman times. That's right. A bit like the Inbetweeners, set in the Roman times.

Starting point is 00:30:39 And I remember doing this, I was on it for a week. And I remember seeing this actor, and he played Groomio with this bowl haircut. Again, a bit method, just unbelievable what he was doing, the choices he was making. I was like, wow, who's this kid? And he was sort of eluding, he's like, oh, you know what,

Starting point is 00:30:53 I might have an idea for me and you, you know, and all this sort of stuff. Anyway, I don't need to see him for 10 years, but he went away and wrote this thing for me and him. By this time I was in EastEnders, and so he wrote this script about two brothers, you know, two estranged brothers that are going to come back together, two different sides of masculinity, one being really sensitive, one being alpha, and he wrote it for me, and

Starting point is 00:31:12 then he went to his agent, and his agent said, you do know he's in EastEnders and he'll never be able to do this. And so he was so deflated. He hadn't even considered that. And so anyway, he had it. If you're in EastEnders, you can't do anything? No, of course you can't. Absolutely not. It takes up your whole life. You haven't got time. So there's no he had it. If you're in EastEnders, you can't do anything. No, of course you can't. Absolutely not. It takes up your whole life. You haven't got time.

Starting point is 00:31:27 So there's no rules against it. It also goes into the whole working for the BBC thing, doesn't it? If you're working for the BBC, then you know, it's publicly funded money. So you can't be seen to be going off and earning money elsewhere, which is why you're not allowed to. I think it's slightly changing. You know, you're not allowed to go off and do adverts and brand deals. You know, especially when you're in EastEnders because, you know, you're not allowed to go off and do adverts and brand deals and you know, especially when you're an EastEnders because you know, you... Then it's like the character on the show is endorsing a kind of beer or something.

Starting point is 00:31:51 I suppose it depends if the show made you famous or not and then you're only really known for that character that maybe they might have more issues with it. But there was no way in the world they would, and especially with Mr Stuff, although it's a funny show, it's quite controversial. Anyway, he went out after he was told it's not going to happen because Danny's in EastEnders. He had a bit of a bender. He went to a petrol garage in the morning and then he saw on the newsstand, Dyer leaves EastEnders. So he went, this is a sign. This is meant to happen. So, and again, I hadn't spoke to him in a long time and I was not aware of this. This wasn't one of the decisions why I left

Starting point is 00:32:29 or anything like that. It was just about, you know, me going, do you know what, I wanna see if there's anything else out there for me, you know what I mean? So I just run my contract down, but so I didn't know this was bubbling away in the background. And so then anyway, he got a new energy for it

Starting point is 00:32:43 and sent it to me and I read it and I was like, wow This is incredible. Can we get it made? I said listen, I'm up for it. I'm so up for this He'd not he's an actor right? He hadn't written brilliant. Had you written anything before? No, I think he'd wrote a couple of short films and stuff, but You know, he's he's a little gay guy from Rovrum who's always been obsessed with masculinity And so that's why he wrote it. And so it's something that he, and he always had me in mind. He said, if it wasn't, if I couldn't have played the role, he wouldn't have done it.

Starting point is 00:33:09 So, you know, he got it made. And it was, it was my first real chance to be in something funny. Your other joke was, you said, Ryan does something different with each role, not something that can be said about myself. Yeah, I said, well, the greatest act is this country's ever produced.

Starting point is 00:33:26 Never done the same thing twice, which is not something I can say. Again, too much of a big laugh. Got a big laugh. Have you ever played... What's the furthest you've got from kind of, you know, that sort of Danny Di persona in a role? Have you done Posh in a role? I did one film a long time ago, it was only a small part but I think probably why my life has gone a bit crazy at the moment is rivals. I think that

Starting point is 00:33:54 it's not about being posh, it's about physicality and showing something completely different. Sensitive. Yeah but he's a working class guy. A powerful man. He's good though, isn't he? But he's powerful. You know, he's got a brilliant brain. You know, he's brought technology to the country. That's how brilliant he is. He speaks Japanese, you know, but he's also got a real vulnerability about him and a soft side.

Starting point is 00:34:16 So, you know, it was about me just showing a different side that I knew I was capable of, but people taking a risk. You know, I'm working with some Titans in this show David Tennant and Aidan Turner, Victoria Smurff here. I've got to say Alex Hassall who plays Rupert Campbell Black is so surprised he didn't get acknowledged more for what he done. He had the hardest role. He's the lady killer isn't he? He Rupert Campbell Black. He's the ultimate man in Jilly Cooper's world. The most beautiful guy. The first episode he starts, he's having sex with a woman in a...

Starting point is 00:34:50 On a Concorde. In a Concorde. Yeah, yeah. It's all based on the Jilly Cooper novel. It's a bonkbuster. Yeah, yeah, you can call it that. That's what they called it back in the day. Back in the day.

Starting point is 00:35:00 It's a... It's a nice slice of life, though, isn't it, of that era? Yeah. It takes the 80s, the 80s are back. It's very... Thatcher. It's very Tory- of life though, isn't it, of that era. Yeah. It takes the 80s, the 80s, thatcher. It's very Tory heavy. Yeah. But, um... Sort of, is it Chiltern set?

Starting point is 00:35:09 Rutscher. Rutscher, it's fictional. Fictional. It's a fictional town. Cotswolds really, where she lives. Cotswolds. And, you know, she... Riding horses, playing tennis naked.

Starting point is 00:35:17 A lot of animals, a lot of dogs running around, a lot of aristocrats. They turn up at a dinner party and one bloke goes and has sex with a woman in another room while the dinner party's going on. Yes absolutely. What the hell? I don't think it was being apologetic about the 80s and I think that's why people appreciated it but it's also... I haven't got far enough into it. Do you end up having some sort of an affair? Maybe that's a spoiler. Well no, it's already out isn't it? So they'll know. Do you get your kit off? How bumpy do you get? At the end I had a result with that really because my character sort of, what they managed

Starting point is 00:35:46 to do with my character Freddie and Lizzie was they, everyone's having an affairs left, right and centre, mostly for power. Using sex for power. And there's two characters that are married to awful people, but have morals. And so they're trying to do the right thing and stay in their marriages, but they're so drawn to each other. And they resist, resist, resist until the very last step, when they just think, why are we resisting this? You know, there's a complete connection.

Starting point is 00:36:15 We don't say much to each other through the series. It's a lot of looks. It's a lot of what is unsaid. And a lot of people were saying, never before have they rooted for an affair more than on this show. Wow. and so we pulled it out of the bag Let's talk about you. Well, you know what, before we move on, UFOs, because that's the other overlap. I failed at my pedidocity, but you made Danny Dyer, I believe in UFOs. I made a UFOs documentary.

Starting point is 00:37:09 How did you get on with it? I don't as such identify as a believer. So you honestly think that our planet is, we're the only things that exist? Well we can't know that, but I don't know that, No, I would be weird if there wasn't another planet somewhere, but the question is, are they visiting, isn't it? Are they actually coming and mixing it up with us? Yeah, are they more technologically advanced that they can do that?

Starting point is 00:37:36 That they can do it, and B, that the people who are saying that they're having experience. I would say yes. I think, why not? Have you had a contact? I know in your documentary you see some lights. I'm not trying to belittle that. That was actual UFOs because what is a UFO? An unidentified flying object. So it wasn't airplanes. So it was an orb going through the sky. So then that's a UFO.

Starting point is 00:37:55 So whatever you want to make of that, that's the fact. Now, and I know that because I went to Mount Adams in Colorado and there's a mount in there that's well known for UFOs flying in and out of it which again sounds fucking ridiculous but actually you know when they got their laptops out and showed the flight paths and all that of it these are not airplanes and you see it I met that guy Stan Romanek who I found really fascinating. He's the guy who said he'd been taken up on a UFO and had been chipped, I think. Has been abducted since he was a child. What, regularly? Regularly, randomly. You'd think that would be easy to check, wouldn't you? But then, they found that thing under

Starting point is 00:38:37 his skin, which isn't from this world, this planet. He shows you a picture of it. But then you said... Look, you've got a smirk on your face. No, because in the documentary then you said, but then he did ask us for 50 000 pounds to show his footage he's trying to monetize it i get that yeah i'm not gonna laugh because you you know i know i get it but i sort of go at the time i was fuming because i wanted to you know show show a lot of stuff what he showed me but but if you think about it look listen i've missed the truth i was talking shite there's no two in but i i think if he is telling the truth, no one will believe you anyway.

Starting point is 00:39:09 That's the thing. So, you know, imagine if this stuff was happening to you and no one believes you. He said a lot about the men in black people following him around and telling him to shut his mouth. Secret US agency personnel. Yeah, I mean, you know, the classic really, isn't it? It's area 51, we don't talk about it.

Starting point is 00:39:24 Yeah, no, you can't fly over there. If you get caught walking through there, you will be shot, you know, the classic really, isn't it? It's Area 51, we don't talk about it. Yeah, no, you can't fly over there. If you get caught walking through there, you will be shot, you know why. So, you know, there's something in it. You know, some of the stories he told me, I think the first story he told me, which was about when he was sitting on a swing and this woman came up to him with huge eyes and she just leant in and her lips didn't move and she said, you're a very special child, you know that.

Starting point is 00:39:44 He sort of little stories like, again said you're a very special child, you know that. He's sort of little starved, he's like, again you're laughing at me, Luke. But I like, I love the idea of someone actually, if it has happened, talking about it. Look, listen, some of the footage that he showed me with, you know, the alien coming in his kitchen and stuff, I've said this before, it did look a bit like the late great Paul Daniels. The one I saw was there's a video and it's behind a screen door and then a kind of sorcery classic. Yeah so the lights go yeah that's right. It looked like a child wearing a Halloween mask. Well yes. Didn't it? But then what do we

Starting point is 00:40:21 know about what aliens look like? No fair enough. Maybe that's the shape of it but yeah I get it I understand why it's laughable. There was another one which I thought it wasn't a mask, was when it comes in it gets in and he's sort of screaming and that and he's sort of in the living room and then you see the long fingers come around the door and It and it pulls its head round and it I mean you in bits here I was like well again either this is the truth and he's showing me footage or it's shite and he's lying to me There's no in between and you know, I think it's 50-50 Yeah, you know what? Why not? What you know this this, the stranger things going on on this planet at the moment. Yeah, it's a bit of fun.

Starting point is 00:41:09 Can we talk a bit about, we should talk about something, well, not that that's not serious, but something equally serious or even more serious. In terms of growing up, can we talk about a bit about growing up? Yep. And you know, Custom House, East London, you've described it as a, you know, loving, but in some ways ways it was a hard scrabble, working class upbringing, right? You discovered at one point, you had this loving mum, your dad was in and out, your parents split up. It turned out he had another family, is that right? Yes, yes he did, yeah that's right. He had an affair and he tried to basically run two families at the same time. I don't know what he was thinking but the stress of that of course.

Starting point is 00:41:51 And we found out when I was nine so he sort of had a kid with my mum and someone else at around the same time. So it was a revelation to all of us. Was he married to your mum? Yeah, absolutely. But this is sort of stuff that sort of stays with you I, when you don't quite know what to do with it. When I think the male role model leaves your life at a young age, for boys and girls to be fair, it leaves this void. I lost the plot for quite a while after he left.

Starting point is 00:42:23 How present was your dad? He was flitting in and out really when he first left because obviously he left under extreme circumstances and then had to go and make a go of it with this other family which was a disaster as well. Did he have many kids? Also, you know what it was? It was the idea of knowing that I've got two siblings

Starting point is 00:42:38 and never met them, you know, that was weird for me. Did you meet them later? I did, I wanted to. My brother didn't, he wasn't interested. But I demanded it, you know. How did that go? You know, it was odd, because obviously I was still the oldest sibling out of all of them. And, you know, walking to a strange house with two sisters that...

Starting point is 00:42:57 How old were you then? Nine, ten. Right. Did you become family? Well, I tried. Because then you've got've got two half sisters then, is that right? Yeah, yeah. I love Dearly now, you know. But you can imagine how difficult it is to try and get your head around that as a child, you know. Is your dad still alive? Yes, he is.

Starting point is 00:43:18 How's he doing? He's one of my best mates in the world now. I love him dearly. You know, he's cracking on, he's 70 this year. Now he's a grandfather, a great grandfather. He's a great grandfather. He's trying to… Quite a young one. Yeah, no listen, he's really trying now. I think his upbringing was very difficult and he didn't quite know how to be a dad himself. He just really struggled with it

Starting point is 00:43:41 and affection and all them things. He was a provider for sure and he grafted hard. Painter decorator. Painter and decorator, yeah. What he grappled with, do you think? What was going on in his background that made him... Because you've talked about his emotional withholding quality, but then he'd have a few drinks and become more affectionate. Yeah, he would. I would prefer him drunk.

Starting point is 00:44:05 I know that's not the case for many people that have alcohol issues within their family. It's like when they have a drink, they turn into a nightmare, whereas he became softer, gentler. So it brought out a better side to him. He would actually forget by the next day, of course, and then you'd fall into a rhythm with him when he was pissed, and then, God forbid, you try and give him a cuddle the next day, because it would be weird.

Starting point is 00:44:24 Really? I think he was brought up by a very strict try and give him a cuddle the next day because it would be weird. Really? I think he was brought up by a very strict father in the 50s and the 60s. Very different world, wasn't it? It was. You know like that generation that were brought up and our government said, if you're gay you're going to go to prison. So when you're brought up with that, you're talking about our government.

Starting point is 00:44:44 The people that you pay tax for that protect you and tell you, these are the laws, this is how you should live your life. So when you're brought up in that environment, and the way the media portray, especially back in the day, black people, people of colour, these scum sort of newspapers, the way they... you're going to create racist people, aren't you? You create racism. If you're the narrative you're being fed. Of course it's changed now. You'd like to think slightly, not much though. It's a little bit more low key for me, but there's still elements of racism and glassism within the media for sure. Especially the red tops. Oh, come on.

Starting point is 00:45:21 Are you not a fan of the sun? Who is? You know, I love Liverpool. You can't buy that fucking newspaper in Liverpool. God forbid you get seen walking down. They made a stand. They did. Like most of us should, really, because they're kingmakers. You know what I mean? We all know that. You know, they get people in power. They fancy you, they like you, get in bed with them, they will get you in government. If they don't... Who, the Sun? The son, especially. It's still owned by Murdoch, isn't it?

Starting point is 00:45:47 Yeah, well, that's right. He controls most of our media, doesn't he? And why is he still alive? I mean, was he jacking himself up with Luke, that these kids are still shuffling around, fucking making these huge decisions? And, you know, it's heavy stuff. And I don't think it's acknowledged enough.

Starting point is 00:46:03 You know, that... Do you play the game with them a bit? No, not in any way, shape or form, I never will do. I am who I am, I absolutely take responsibility for some of the stories that will come out about me for sure. A lot of it's bollocks, I'm complete tabloid fodder. Even me speaking to you today, I know this is going to end up in some sort of clickbait material and my publicist is probably sitting out there now, you know, shaking. Which bit with the UFO? I wish it was about that, you know, but there'll

Starting point is 00:46:29 be nothing positive. They're always looking for salacious shite, aren't they? So, you know, I'm just an actor really, just trying to feed his kids like everybody else and have a nice life, that's it. But you were saying that, so you've got state-sanctioned homophobia, laws against being Yeah, that generation. Homosexual activity. They're still around, you know, there's still an element of that in the air. There's still a generation of that, people still alive. You can't blame them for thinking a certain way when the people that govern us told us that's how you should be thinking. So, you know, some of these ways, I don't blame him for it, you know. Will Barron But you were saying, so then your dad left,

Starting point is 00:47:03 and then you kind of, you said you'd lost the plot a bit. Is that the term you know? But you were saying, so then your dad left and then you said you lost the plot a bit, is that the term you used? What do you mean by that? I needed counselling. As a young man? Yeah, because I became really angry and lost and I wanted answers of why my dad did what he did and why he wasn't around anymore because as much as he wasn't tactile and somebody that was very good at being a parent, I loved him dearly, you know, and I looked up to him.

Starting point is 00:47:26 He was an alpha male and he was in a very alpha world, you know what I mean? And I'd spend a lot of time with him up the pub. I'd go and find him at the boozer if he was there. We'd go watch West Ham. He introduced me to West Ham, so now and again, we'd have a father's day out. But all of a sudden, he's gone, and nine you know why and you know you take it out

Starting point is 00:47:49 on your mom and people around you in school I was being the twat and fighting and you know just completely lost and so they so they organized some counseling for me I think what it was so when I was nine what was that whatever 86 was it you know not a lot of parents split up, even in the eighties, they stuck together. Like there was a mentality. Even if you hated your party, you stayed together. You know, you'd blank each other, probably sleeping in separate beds, you'd drag your kids up. And then maybe if you're brave enough, make a decision later in life that you will leave, but it just, I looked around at my mates

Starting point is 00:48:26 and all of their parents were still together and I couldn't understand why mine couldn't do it. And your brain's developing, you're struggling and there ain't no answers, is there? Well, the answer when we know what it is, is that my dad, you know, he fucked it, you know, he had an affair, he got caught out, and so he had to leave. But, you know, he had an affair, he got caught out, and so he had to leave.

Starting point is 00:48:45 But you know, it really did affect me, and I think that, it's when I sort of discovered drama as well, and I liked doing drama for some reason, even though that was sort of seen as being, you know, homosexual somewhat. But I loved getting lost in pretending to be other people or... How did you get into it?

Starting point is 00:49:05 Was it at school? It's at school, isn't it? It's a lesson in school. School productions? When I went to secondary school, you know, from... What kind of thing was it? Well, you would have a drama lesson all of a sudden. You didn't really have it in primary school.

Starting point is 00:49:16 Yeah. And it's like, oh, well, this is good. I like this hour. I hate maths. I hate geography. I hate, you know, English. Boring. But this lesson, you can go in and you do improvising I hate maths, I hate geography, I hate English, boring. But this lesson, you can go in and you do improvising

Starting point is 00:49:28 and most of the kids felt really uncomfortable in there, hated it, I loved it. It was the one class I could excel at, don't know why. Did you immediately realize that you had something? How quickly did you notice that maybe you had an ability at drama? Never thought that I could ever take it on as a career. I just felt that, you know.

Starting point is 00:49:47 You just liked doing it? It just came naturally to me. So how did it become? Nothing else came naturally. How did it become a career? Or like at what point, because you were doing child acting. I was from a single parent family and my teacher in school, Mrs. Flynn, Jane Flynn,

Starting point is 00:49:59 and she was always on me about, listen, you know, you've got to think about this as a career. And you come from East London, it's just, it's just no, there's no avenues. You know, it's got worse now, unfortunately, working class kids, what chance do they stand? So and I knew I would never be able to get into drama school because I didn't have the funding for it and all that sort of stuff. And she said to me, look, listen, there's a, there's a place called WAC, which is a place in Chalk Farm for working class kids. It's not there anymore, I don't think, it's gone.

Starting point is 00:50:29 Can't remember what it stands for, it's WAC. Said, look it up. And because I was from a single parent family, I could go for free. That was on a Sunday. Now I've spoken about this in interviews years ago, and people think I used to go to, and I called it a Sunday school.

Starting point is 00:50:42 So people think I was a church girl. That wasn't what it was. I used to just have to get to Chalk Farm, 13 years of age. Quite a long way from Custom House. Yeah, well, very far. Yeah. And I never really had the money for the train and stuff. I just have to bunk the fares and stuff and just get there.

Starting point is 00:50:58 Sunday was a lot easier actually, because sometimes the barriers would be open at Chalk Farm. And I used to get on on the overground at Custom House where there wasn't barriers, so that helped me. And then I would change at Hackney and then jump on the tube. But it was great because I was with like-minded kids who wanted to be actors, whereas when you're doing it in school,

Starting point is 00:51:17 it's a lesson that most people don't wanna do. So all of a sudden it really brought something out of me. And I went for a few months Loved it my favorite day of the week and then we did a workshop in front of some agents Charlotte Kelly your name was I haven't seen him in years and she came up to me after said I want to represent you I've got an audition for you tomorrow on the Monday Literally the next day for prime suspect free and that's when it started for me and I didn't even understand what she was talking about, about representing me, I knew what agents were but I couldn't quite understand what she meant and she signed

Starting point is 00:51:52 me up and I got, and I went for that audition, Doreen Jones, who's dead now, she was an amazing lovely lady. I went and found this door in Wardour Street, got in there, I'd learnt my lines, because I found learning lines quite easy, and I played a sex worker. Did you? Yeah, a young sex worker. What sort of? It was Prime Suspect 3, so it was a very controversial one. It was a TV detective series with Helen Mirren.

Starting point is 00:52:18 Helen Mirren. Yeah. It had Peter Capaldi in it, played like a drag queen. You had Tom Bell in it back in the day. You played a young sex worker, what kind of catering to men? A homeless kid. Right. And the storyline was about a young sex worker that had been murdered.

Starting point is 00:52:33 Really? So it was 1993. Quite a heavy subject. It was really heavy. It was about paedophilia within the police force higher up in the ranks. So it was one that hasn't been repeated a lot. You know, it's an incredible series, Prime Suspect and Helen Mirren and her pump. And it was such a buzz. It was, I can't explain how I felt. I was like, I loved showing off. And also my dad was my chaperone. My mum obviously had two siblings, so she couldn't come to Manchester with me. So my dad got that privilege. And he came and he got 50 quid a day, he was over the moon.

Starting point is 00:53:06 And I got to show off in front of my dad, you know, and he loved it and he felt part of it. And we was all in the bar, we stayed in the V&A hotel and, you know, it was the days when you could smoke inside and that. And so first time I had a cigarette in front of me, I thought I've earned it now. Consider I'm getting you 50 quid a day, you've had a touch, don't maul me when I pull a fucking Benson out. And we would sit up in the bar with you know Helen Mirren and Robbie Coltrane was filming Cracker at the same time he came in and and it was like I could see my dad's face being surrounded by famous people and you know just this joy. But it was always like oh okay I love this can I how long can I do it for

Starting point is 00:53:43 you know that's the key. And you you had the feeling of being good at it. Did you have technique that you relied on? I don't want to be really prosaic, but to what extent? Toby- It's instinct. You read it and you musically in your head go, oh, I can see the beats of this, I understand what's important and what words are really important. So you naturally sort of go, oh, okay, important and what words are really important. So you naturally sort of go, oh, okay, how do I make this interesting? How do I make people want to watch me and

Starting point is 00:54:09 listen to what I'm saying? And then the beauty of having a director is that they come in and then tweak you and go, oh, how about this? Which is the complete opposite of what my instinct was saying. I go, I never thought of that. I mean, this isn't my world at all. Like, but do you know, they're not supposed to give you line reads, are they? That's considered a faux pas is it like no do you mean I'll say it that way no that's right that's considered undermining or no they'll give you an emotion they'll say like bigger smaller bigger quicker that's another one speed pace really and it just makes you you know you play it differently

Starting point is 00:54:43 with pace sometimes you want you to take your time more, especially if you've got to cry and find emotion, you need that time to find it. And hopefully the words are good enough to make you cry if you're really into it and you believe it. The words, it's the belief of the words or you'd be thinking of something to connect with the emotion. And the situation, you know. And I think I did some really, you know, talking about EastEnders, I did some really

Starting point is 00:55:07 good work in EastEnders. I'm really proud of it and the people that I've worked with there. You know, I learnt a lot from that job and about the speed. I've just done a film, Louis, where I'm the only one in it. It's called Three Quick Breaths. And I read it, it's 90 pages, just me in an office on the phone. And I read it and it's like an episode of The Twilight Zone. This guy just has the worst day ever. Right? It never cuts away from me. And I read it and I thought,

Starting point is 00:55:37 this is amazing. Can I be fucked to do it? Can I do it? Because it's so hard. But it was my experience for me, Stenders, that got me through it, that learning. We shot it in 10 days in Dublin, and I had to learn 15 pages a day, 12, 15 pages a day. So no one to react to, I provided an earpiece. And you know, I just, what can I achieve it? In a way, going back to Shakespeare, maybe this was my hamlet.

Starting point is 00:56:06 Maybe this was my, maybe that narcissist in me thought, can I be the only one in a film? And they sent it to me the other day, I watched it, and I'm really proud of it. I think it comes out next year. But it's definitely an achievement. And I mean, it drove me insane at the end. I couldn't wait to finish it. I didn't see any of Dublin I would learn my dialogue 15 pages go to

Starting point is 00:56:31 sleep wake up in the morning go to the studio one set one room do it wrap back symbolically I have my script in a folder and I would rip out the next 15 pages throw the folder away sit there I'd have one pint of Guinness and I would rip out the next 15 pages, throw the folder away, sit there, I'd have one pint of Guinness and I would bam bam bam learn it, drill it, drill it, drill it. This is what actors need to remember, there's no excuses for not knowing your lines because you need to drill it, you need to feel like this dialogue is possessing you. It doesn't matter what time you fall asleep, as long as you can open your eyes and recite any line from any point,

Starting point is 00:57:05 then you can go out and work and enjoy yourself. The ones that don't know the lines, are either really old and you've got to make exceptions, I just can't be bothered. You don't put your homework in, then you're gonna struggle the next day. And you're gonna hold everything up, you're gonna be embarrassed, you're gonna feel awkward.

Starting point is 00:57:18 Do your homework, it's boring. It's so boring learning lines and it's irritating. And then does it disappear quite quick? Like can you still recall monologues from movies? No, for me it's retained elite. Really? Especially on a show like EastEnders, your brain can't retain that much so you need to sort of expel it as quickly as you possibly can

Starting point is 00:57:40 so you're ready for the next scene. I mean you sort of talked about EastEnders in terms of technique but career-wise what did it do for you? Saved my career. Absolutely. No one would hire me. And Dominic Treadwell Collins, who then went on to put me in rivals, he took a chance on me.

Starting point is 00:57:57 Was he the director? No. He was the producer. Producer. Serious producer. They change him every two years. Why did your career need saving? I'd made so many bad films and bad decisions. My drug taking was bad. Stop

Starting point is 00:58:08 it. Yeah I was in a mad place in my life. I'd almost fucked it all up. I'd had a good run. I'd made some films. Football Factory the business. I was on a hire but I didn't quite know how to deal with it. I'd made some bad decisions. I said yes to stuff I shouldn't have. You know, and... Were the drugs a solution to the problem, or were they the problem? I was just trying to have fun, in a sense, if that's what you do. And it is fun at the beginning, taking drugs.

Starting point is 00:58:36 But then when it starts to take over your life and you can't manage your life anymore, and you've got children and you're spending all your money on, you know, just getting off your head all the time. It's just, and you want to be, you know, you have a moment of clarity and then you go, what were you doing? That's what I needed to do. But also you sound like you had the stamina to work on a serious diet.

Starting point is 00:58:56 That was my downfall as well, I had a good capacity for them. You know, I was playing in light weights, I'm a bit spewy and a bit, you know, they always want to go to bed. Wish I had a bit of that about me. And that way I wouldn't have took so many because I couldn't have functioned So I could function while being off me head. But did you have a sort of drug of choice as they say? I Did love anything that took me really high and Then I would obviously have need something to calm me the fuck down

Starting point is 00:59:24 So sort of dies youam and Valium as well so... To take you back down... It's very dangerous for your heart. In your... yeah I was gonna say how's your health? Well I have check-ups... You look good! I do have a pair of tits and a belly so there's that health... I don't see any tits... A couple of chins... Not at all... Losing my air... I don't think that's my health though... You look good. I have regular check-ups for jobs, you know. Do you work out? No, no, absolutely not. I fast in the day just to keep the weight off.

Starting point is 00:59:53 I feel like if you fast, it's good for your body as well. I mean, ideally I want to build up to not eating anything on a Monday. Stop it. Just liquids. Really? So your body can start to, it starts to eat itself and heal itself. It's a thing. I just do struggle. Mondays are shy anyway, so you know, you've

Starting point is 01:00:15 got to look forward to your dinner on a Monday. But I do fast during the day until the afternoon. You've got to drink plenty of water while you're doing it. It does work because I think it's the brown fat and the white fat. White fat turns to brown fat and then you piss it out basically, which is better than standing in the gym with loads of people on steroids. Are you sober now? No, I've found a thing and I know there's a lot of recovering addicts out there that will be saying it's impossible to do what I've done. Nick Love being one of them. I'm an exception to the rule what Nick love is completely in the wagon 38 years now It was on Harry when he was 17 and he went to rehab come straight away. We have went to film school But it's obsessed with it still hedonism and all that he writes about it and he writes for my or ego in a way

Starting point is 01:01:02 Or he's already go and all that, and he writes about it, and he writes for my auto-ego in a way, or his auto-ego. So I've managed to, I can drink now. Did you tie one on after the BAFTAs? It was a Sunday night, it was tricky. Tied a couple. Again, when you're at the BAFTAs, you've been to these things. Especially if you win one, everyone sort of wants to have a photo of you and pull you about. It's not relaxing. No, it wasn't. No, but I was on a high anyway. So it was entirely up to my daughters what they wanted to do. If, this is what we was going to do.

Starting point is 01:01:28 If I would have lost, which I thought we was going to get, straight in the car, I was going to get him at McDonald's on the way home. That was the key. But actually I won, so we stayed and had a bit of dinner. And then I left at about quarter to 11. Yeah, me too. I didn't fancy an after party. Yeah, I didn't fancy all that. No, no.

Starting point is 01:01:44 And I had to drive to Bristol the next But there was an after party. Yeah, I didn't fancy all that. No, no. And I had to drive to Bristol the next day. So you know, it was, and also I didn't want to taint the night. Start these things for too long and you get more and more pissed and you do something or say something or you ruin it all. You're still capable of getting a little bit messy from time to time. Oh God, yeah. It's always in you.

Starting point is 01:02:02 It's always in you. It's about recognising it now. I never recognised it before. On Desert Island Discs you talk about not being able to put your trousers on or take them off. On a moment of clarity where I had been on it all night after the NTAs it was, I think I'd won. National Television Awards. I think I'd won. And that's always on like a Tuesday or something. And I had to go to work. There was the other thing about East End, you know, they go, yeah, come celebrate NTAs, but you are up at seven in the morning.

Starting point is 01:02:28 So anyway, I just overdone it again and I just could not work out how to get my jeans on. Which part of it? I was just sitting on my ensuite toilet, trying to work out what leg goes in what. And it just, I don't know why. I'm sure I've had many of them moments over the years of me being completely off my head but that one really resonated with me and it was more because I looked at my wife was just watching me and she looked shattered and she looked ill and of course you know the drug taking and the madness that comes with it you you're destroying yourself and your body and you're slowly killing yourself,

Starting point is 01:03:05 but you're also, you're really upsetting the people around you. And that was, I just looked at, even through this moment of, it was off my head, but it was just, everything seemed to just sort of go, what the fuck are you doing to people around you that love you? And it was that moment, and I could hear Artie, my son, who's now 11, he must have been free,

Starting point is 01:03:26 he was running around downstairs. And I think I'd got rid of the last straggler out of me house. What time would it have been? Well, it would have been about half six, quarter to seven. What, in the morning? Yeah. So you'd been at, yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:37 Well, I had to go to work, so I had a car picking me up to take me to work. And it was just this moment where I thought, shit, you're gonna die. You're gonna kill yourself, you're not happy. You're spunking all your money on drugs. You're destroying everything around you. It's weird that moment, because I went straight to work that day

Starting point is 01:03:55 and I was a bit off my head and I did say, listen, I need help. I can't do this anymore, I need help. I don't know what it is, but I need to. This is a crossroads in my life where I need a gear change and I need help. I don't know what it is but I need to this is a crossroads in my life where I need a gear change and I need it now because I'm gonna survive this year and so you know I want to give a shout out to a Louisa Bradshaw White who played my sister Tina who really came to the front for me more than anybody else. What put an arm around you and said... Well, she'd always said that she thinks I've got an issue and problem.

Starting point is 01:04:28 No one else would say that to me. People, I don't know, people don't want to busy their self in your life, whatever I represented. Big statement to say to someone you've got a problem. Yeah, but then I had that from Nick a lot, who obviously, you know, had been in recovery and he could see signs in me. And of course, I'll be like, whatever. It's only when you actually realize you have to really have a moment yourself

Starting point is 01:04:50 that you should never go into recovery for other people. It should be doing it for you to be a better person. But she had always, whenever you're ready, just let me know. That was always her vibe with me. And then I was ready. I wonder if she'd been through something or had a... She has. She's had her issues, like a lot of people have really. And a lot of people in my life, I've seen a lot of people go through some quite heavy stuff

Starting point is 01:05:15 and always thought, oh, fucking hell, that's quite heavy. God, glad I'm not that bad. And it turns out I was. It just took me a longer route to get there. So, it's about taking ownership and all that that wave of destruction you've left behind you, you know, hopefully you can make amends to people and just be a better person, you know, that's try and be around for as long as you can. But when you came out, presumably in rehab, they say no, you've got to quit it like this, it doesn't work, no half measures. Do they not say

Starting point is 01:05:42 that? No, that's the theory. I mean, if you do the 12 steps, of course, absolutely. And I think that is the case. For me, I had other issues. I needed a lot of therapy about why I was doing what I was doing. And I spoke about this recently about abandonment issues and stuff like that and role models leaving me and me wanting to press the fuck it button and fame really fucking my head up. And, you know, so I got some answers that I needed. I did live by it, I tried the 12 steps, a lot of admin for me. You know it works for people, it saves people's lives and I know living proof of that. It's almost like it's a spiritual awakening where you hand over your life to a higher power and say I can manage it, so I'm going to hand it over

Starting point is 01:06:27 to whatever you want it to be. And I'm going to trust the steps. Did you do that? I did it for a bit, yeah. You said Harold Pinter might be your higher power. He is my higher power. I do feel that he is definitely something, someone that was, I quite like the spiritual aspect, I'm not a religious person but I like the idea of someone watching over you and just sort of dragging you by the fucking collar now and again through certain moments. Why him?

Starting point is 01:06:58 I just think that we had a mad bond, he was the, he was somebody who came into my life as a bit of a father figure for a period of time and spoke to me in a way like no one else had the bollocks to. Really? And he got me and yeah it's weird and then I fucked up again and listen. Do you mean the New York incident? Yeah yeah. I mean it's been well rehearsed, you talked about it, but basically you did a play with him in New York. Let him down. You discovered crack in New York. Yeah, yeah I did, yeah.

Starting point is 01:07:30 I'd never been to America. And froze up on stage. And all of a sudden I'm on Broadway, you know, and I got involved in shit I probably shouldn't have done. Well, I shouldn't have. The arrogance of me thinking I can puff on a crack pipe and then walk straight on stage and do a pin, it's just ridiculous, you know, but I learnt the hard way. Were you curious to try it or were you trying to manage some anxiety issues? I just loved getting off my head. That's the truth. And the thing about when you do a play,

Starting point is 01:07:55 such a mad existence, you don't quite know what to do with yourself all day. You're flitting around. You don't want to be too early or too late. You know, you've got to get into town for a certain time and then you hit your call and then, you know, you got to get into town for a certain time and then you hit your call and then, you know, you build up to do the show and then you do it. Even when you're knacking the adrenaline that's running through your body and then the show closes say half nine, 10 o'clock

Starting point is 01:08:15 and your adrenaline still going. So what do you do with yourself? Do you know what I mean? It's like this high, because, you know, ideally you'd like to do the play and a lot of actors do that. They've got a technique of calming down, go home, have a cup of tea, go to bed, it all starts again.

Starting point is 01:08:29 It's a cycle. And I suppose when you've been doing it for as long as we've done that play, I knew it back to front, I thought I could get away with it. Which play was it? It was called Celebration. It was the last play he wrote. Was it? It was all set in a restaurant like the Ivy. He was sort of taking the piss out of the Ivy

Starting point is 01:08:46 and the bollocks that comes with the people that frequent it. And I played the waiter and it's a brilliant piece of work. It cuts between two tables. And I sort of link it together by bringing food out every night. And, you know, it was a wonderful piece of work. And it was really an ensemble piece. And I let everybody down. I've never, I I still know I've written let them down. How

Starting point is 01:09:09 Well, if you when you try on stage and it does happen by the way people dry. Yeah, it's a hard gig You're not just letting yourself to let them all them down. Aren't you they know their lines their sweet They're on it and then you don't know your lunch or what you leave them in a situation where you know Cuz they was all looking at me fuming go and go in and prick I think they knew I'd been out so they sort of going well you've got yourself in this mess and then and I didn't know what I was gonna walk off and then Andy Dellator who was at the table that I interjected in said oh I bet your grandfather knew CS Lewis didn't you know something like that

Starting point is 01:09:43 prompted you yeah and then I went oh oh, yes, yeah, he did. And then, of course, my repetition of doing it so much, I said it and done it, hated every second of it. All of a sudden, I hated acting. Hated myself. It was such a powerful moment for me that I've never really recovered from it because I never used to get nervous.

Starting point is 01:10:04 Like, before any play I'd ever done, I was always well drilled and I loved it and was, you know, loved showing off. And then when it went really badly wrong for me, any play I've done since, I've shat myself every night because I know the feeling of when it goes wrong. Of course, I look after myself now and I'm not in my dressing room with a pipe hanging out of my mouth. So very different to now. you're still there that feeling of vulnerability and you're you know the blood rushing from my feet to my head I

Starting point is 01:10:34 always remember it I've gone oh my god everyone's waiting for me to speak and just sort of shrinking into myself which is an actor once your confidence is gone you're done. Do you think the audience could tell? No. Really? Well, the great thing about Pinter is he's known for pausing, isn't he?

Starting point is 01:10:51 That's it. So, no, no one knew, only me and the cast, and of course Harold, who sort of put his arm around me and made me feel worse because he was sort of being passive aggressive with me. Really, what did he do? Well, he just sort of said, if ever there's an ensemble piece down here to this, do need to get to bed and I was like oh he

Starting point is 01:11:08 knows because I went straight through. I remember coming back from wherever I was it was in Soho I remember sucking on a pipe looking at the clock and it was quarter to two in the afternoon thinking shit I've got to be on stage at six and then on a crack pipe do you mean? Yeah and then got back to the.....uh... ..hotel, because we were all staying in the same hotel, praying. I didn't want me to have all the fucking reception. Just... ..just get to your room and hopefully you can fall asleep.

Starting point is 01:11:35 And then... It would have been quarter to two in the morning. In the afternoon. Oh, stop it. Yeah. Oh, God, no, not in the... No, that's an early night. Really? Quarter to two in the afternoon, you were on the pipe?

Starting point is 01:11:47 I'd been on it all night, yeah. I finished the play. On your own? No, I was with other people. Shall we draw a veil over that part of it? Well, you know... Who would have been just local characters? No, no, no, I knew people out there. So it was...

Starting point is 01:12:01 What, expats or you'd found a little crew that... Other actors and stuff. Really? But, you know, you'd found a little crew that... Other actors and stuff. Really? But you live and learn through these experiences and I had to take full responsibility for it and I punished myself. There's a lot of people that would have gone missing. I did have an understudy.

Starting point is 01:12:20 It's almost worse if you do that, in a way the other actors hate you more for using an understudio. You know so I just thought no no you've got yourself in this mess. You knew that you were in trouble like when you arrived. But I thought do you know what you've done it enough yes you're wired but you you can do it you know you're bulletproof and it turns out I won't and um and it's stuck with me ever since you know so you know I'm due for it again when I've got time and I do want to get back on the horse yeah I've done a couple of stuff did the dumb waiter in 2019 with Martin Freeman that was a two

Starting point is 01:12:54 hour and yeah it was amazing that's a great Pinter play that's about the two men I would say to anyone out there that doesn't know about Pinter read the dumb waiter first and then you'll go oh I quite like this and then you can start getting into the caretaker and all the other stuff that you did. Caretaker, I did that one at school. Birthday party is another one. Birthday party. I mean the room's a great one as well.

Starting point is 01:13:14 The dialogue's incredible, it's so conversational which is what dialogue should be. And it sort of really rolled off my tongue quite easily, his dialogue. Really clever his work. It's like when you do one of his plays professionally and you put it on in the West End, the audiences are so different because there's always this humor running through it but there's also an element of dread and some audiences cling on to the humor and they're laughing and they're rolling around. The same play by the way. You know you've the human, they're laughing and they're rolling around. The same play, by the way, you know, you've got weight, they're laughing so much for your next line. And then other nights, just silence, same dialogue, playing it the same, but they cling onto the dread and the undertone instead of it.

Starting point is 01:13:58 And it's quite off putting. That's what's made him so clever to me and such a genius. You know, I would love to have got into more fear, I think. There's no money in it though, Louis, I'm gonna be honest. It's weird that because you bear your soul on the stage every night, you work your bollocks off. It's the hardest thing for any actor to do. I don't care who you are, but you don't get no money.

Starting point is 01:14:21 What about Hollywood? Yeah. But you don't get no money. What about Hollywood? Yeah. Well, I don't know. I did go over there years ago and did the whole classic, you know, I'm the next big thing. And I just can't be bothered.

Starting point is 01:14:35 You did a bunch of meetings. Yeah. Got an agent, manager, lawyer. You got to get. That's right. But they wanted me to live there for six months. And I had, you know, small children. And I hated the fact that they wanted me to speak American all the time, which is what you're meant to do out there. Everyone thought I was Australian. Did they? So I was constantly just having to...

Starting point is 01:14:59 Well, you're supposed to take meetings and speak American. They encourage you to. Could you do that? No. Yeah, you're supposed to take meetings and speak American. They encourage you to. Could you do that? No. Yeah, you could. I couldn't be bothered. Can I be bothered? How desperate do you want to be? I mean, I understand that's where the work is,

Starting point is 01:15:11 and that's the ultimate, but can I be bothered to go and live out there on my own, talking American all the time to everybody, pretending I'm someone else? No, can I be fucked? So anyway, the other way. Can you do a good American accent? Well, it's the American, American's not the hardest to do. My name's Danny Dyer.

Starting point is 01:15:30 My name's Danny Dyer and I'm here with Louis Faroo and his podcast. No, yeah, of course, American's not hard, but it's doing it all the time. Anyway, we've got to wrap this up, haven't we? We've got to wrap this up, yeah. Thank you for that, Danny. I really appreciate it.

Starting point is 01:15:58 Welcome back. How are you doing? I hope you enjoyed that. That was a lot of fun having Danny in the house. A little bit chastening at times to be reminded of... how do we put it? Well, we compared our documentary making techniques and Danny wasn't shy about letting me know that I'd be limited, right, in some respects. He said I'd be fair game on a traveller site and he couldn't imagine me having a fag hanging out or swearing and that I'd be tight with the old bill. Go to a dinner party with some DCs.

Starting point is 01:16:34 I don't think he quite got my number. I mean I plead guilty to being leading a kind of ivory tower to being leading a kind of ivory tower existence, swanking around show business parties. I'm not that tight with the old Bill. Would I, what do they say, sing like a canary, would I snitch, would I drop a dime on, that's the American expression, any would-be malefactors? Would I try to shop? Am I a dobber? I don't think so. Well, but am I? Actually, maybe I am. If someone's getting up to no good, you do call the police, don't you? Is that dobbing? Perhaps I am a dobber. But I wouldn't dob on... like if I was making a documentary, I don't think. You're making a film then, it's different, different rules.

Starting point is 01:17:33 He'd eat you like a Yorkie bar. Still working on that accent. That was petty-dohity. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit Spotify.com slash resources. I think that's it, except for credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Artemis Irvin. The production manager was Francesca Bassett.

Starting point is 01:18:01 And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a MINDHOUSE production for Spotify.

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The Louis Theroux Podcast - S5 EP7: Danny Dyer on battling addiction, UFO obsessions, and tackling Shakespeare

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The Louis Theroux Podcast - S5 EP7: Danny Dyer on battling addiction, UFO obsessions, and tackling Shakespeare

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