The Louis Theroux Podcast - S5 EP8: Michael Cera on working with Tom Cruise, featuring in 'Barbie', and never graduating

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

In this very special bonus episode, Louis is joined by actor and writer Michael Cera. Michael tells Louis about his foul-mouthed run-in with Tom Cruise, nearly missing out on his role as Allan in Barbie, and the reason he never graduated from high school. Plus, Louis reveals which Superbad character he most aligns with…     Warnings: Strong language    Links/Attachments:    Film: The Phoenician Scheme (2025) - dir. Wes Anderson  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEuMnPl2WI4    TV Show: Arrested Development (2004-2019) - Fox/Netflix  https://www.netflix.com/title/70140358    TV Show: The Office (2001-2003) - BBC   https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b00jd68z/the-office    TV Show: The Grubbs (2002) - Fox  https://youtu.be/knwPbzLWCNQ?si=9d10SEXncfPkrdaK    Film: Superbad (2007)  https://www.netflix.com/title/70058023    Advert: ‘Pillsbury Doughboy Commercial’   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDEYPbfWY6I    Film: Year One (2009)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H_Eepvg3aU    Film: Ghostbusters (1984)  https://www.netflix.com/title/541018    Film: A Minecraft Movie (2025)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJO_vIDZn-I    Film: Anora (2024)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1HxTmV5i7c    Film: Funny Games (1997) - dir. Michael Haneke  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec-70W_K77U   Film: Benny’s Video (1992) - dir. Michael Haneke  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18X_kyHW3G0    Film: White Ribbon (2009) - dir. Michael Haneke  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JOXs8KEiDY    Film: The Castle (1997) - dir. Michael Haneke  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8hsui0    Film: Right Now, Wrong Then (2015) - dir. Hong Sang-soo  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOE-Zznq_S4    Film: Yourself and Yours (2016) - dir. Hong Sang-soo  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48F7SkR8yew    Film: Claire’s Camera (2017) - dir. Hong Sang-soo   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4-C5L0TupE    Short Story: ‘My Man Jeremy’ - Michael Cera  https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/11/25/my-man-jeremy    Short Story: ‘Pinecone’ - Michael Cera   https://store.mcsweeneys.net/products/mcsweeneys-issue-30    Book: True Grit – Charles Portis     Book: Masters of Atlantis – Charles Portis     Book: Dog of the South – Charles Portis     TV Show: Scenes from a Marriage (2021) - HBO    Film: Fanny and Alexander (1982)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euGIHjc6C_Q    Film: Barbie (2023)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBk4NYhWNMM    TV Show: Garth Marenghi’s Darkplace (2004) - Channel 4  https://www.channel4.com/programmes/garth-marenghis-darkplace    Film: Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World (2010) - dir. Edgar Wright   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wd5KEaOtm4    Film: This Is The End (2013)   https://www.netflix.com/title/70264796    Documentary: Louis Theroux: Miami Mega Jail (2011) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011k0xx    Film: Rushmore (1998) - dir. Wes Anderson  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZVdXXG3KN8    Film: A Clockwork Orange (1971) - dir. Stanley Kubrick   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T54uZPI4Z8A&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN5tD    TV Show: Mr. Show with Bob and David (1995-1998) - HBO  https://www.hbo.com/mr-show-with-bob-and-david    Film: Bottle Rocket (1996) - dir. Wes Anderson   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPQ-NnjZR0    Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Maan al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Microphone check. Chickity check, chickity check, microphone check. Hello and welcome back to the Louis Theroux podcast. For this very special bonus episode, I'm speaking to the actor and writer Michael Cera. Sarah. Michael first graced our screens playing George Michael Bluth in the Fox sitcom Arrested Development from 2003, which also starred, well, so many people, but among them, Jason Bateman, Portia De Rossi, Will Arnett and Jeffrey Tambor. I'm sure you've seen it. If not, check it out. It is very beloved and kind of brilliant. We talk about that. Then followed leading roles in iconic films

of the noughties, including Superbad, Juno, you remember that one, and Scott Pilgrim versus the world. He specialized in a certain unworldly vulnerable gamine? That's a female, isn't it? But certainly not possessing traditional masculine qualities type of role. Slightly lost, boyish is what I'm saying. This one, maybe being a bonus episode, is a little different. It was recorded in person in May this year at a press junket. My first ever, I think. So I trotted down to the Soho Hotel and joined the hordes of film critics because Michael was launching the new Wes Anderson film, The Phoenician Scheme. Millie says I should say it's got an end of series feel. We tend to say that when maybe there's more banter and a bit less intense peeling away of the layers.

Is that making sense to anyone? We'd heard that he might be a bit of a fan. We. That's the production team. I haven't got worms. Or do I? Of my programs. And whether or not he was or is, you will shortly be finding out.

Awkward. Awkward if he isn't. A warning, there is strong language in the episode, maybe even other stuff. Maybe. That covers everything. All that and much else besides coming up. Welcome. Hi. How are you doing? I'm good. How you doing? Good. They keep it cold in this room. Yeah, it is quite cold. Is it too cold? We can turn it down a bit. It's too cold. I can't, when I came in, is it? We don't really need AC, do we? Just push the power, yep. Yeah, now we're all set. I noticed the cold and then it didn't cross my mind to do anything about it. Well, that's one of my strengths, just being present to the surroundings. You have agency, which I tend to forget over life. One has. Well, the thing is I'm staying in this hotel and I found my room to be quite cold.

It occurred to me this morning I could turn it off because I've been in a bit of a battle with the thing on the wall. I couldn't get it to do what I wanted, and I just turned it off. So I was somewhat prepared for the situation. You had previous, you've already. How long do you want to talk about the AC? I think we're done. Okay. So you're promoting a movie, which we want to talk about.

We're gonna move on to that, and that's gonna be great. I'll follow your lead. I'm very excited to speak with you. Thank you. And meet you. Well, the agent conveyed, or the publicist, that there was some familiarity with., I love your work my humble Really seriously? Yeah Nice to hear that. I mean we're looking around

I appreciate that. Yeah, it's always a dream to hear that and I'd love to talk more about that actually Because you've got a having done a little research you know you've talked in the past about being a fan of maybe British comedy yeah British TV yeah was that formative for you going back I mean how much I wondered if that was partly you being Canadian that there's more exposure to the to the British Commonwealth cultural output true mm-hmm No, I wouldn't say that. But I'm trying to... Well, you know what?

I think my very first exposure to the really funny British TV stuff was The Office. And it was... But I learned about it through... I was working on Arrested Development with all these guys. Of course. I mean, the legendary... The legendary... Mitchell Hurwitz

TV was the creator writer showrunner Mitch. Yeah, it was an amazing ensemble And all those guys are very beloved Will Arnett will on that David Cross and Jason Bateman They were all they were all obsessed with the office really and so and they were you know I mean this spoke about it like it's the greatest thing ever. And then, you know, really loved that. And then- They were the gateway? They were the gateway. To you discovering that.

You would have been 14, I think, when you- Around there. When you made Arrested Development. We're gonna tangent, we're gonna neatly pivot, just because obviously Arrested Development was one of the things I thought, I hoped we would talk about. Well, that's why I brought it up.

Yes. I came to it like, literally, it was one of the things like I happened on a plane having heard nothing about it And okay, I honestly thought like this is really weird like and when was that? like When it was honored was in 2000 and did it come out 2003 or three would have been like maybe a year after or Pretty early. Yeah on a plane. Yeah, who knows? The point being, though, was my first thing was, oh, this is weird.

I didn't take to it. The first 15 minutes, I thought, it's so written. It's got a narrator. The scenes move very. Did you start from episode one? No. That's the thing, though, right? I think that's why it didn't work on television,

ratings-wise, was because it's so serialized. I think if you even jump in episode two, you're like, what's the story?, you kind of have to watch it. There's a lot of running jokes. Yeah. There is a series arc. Yeah. So everyone feels invited to the party. What would be our ten word version of what that series was about? What the show was about in ten words. It doesn't have to be exactly. Yeah, but at the time it takes I get it. Well it was a it was a Fox show. It doesn't have to be exact. No, yeah. But the time it takes, I get it. Well it was a Fox show.

It's about a dysfunctional family, really. And I played George Michael. And that was kind of a source of humor. Yes. One of the many. And yeah. And you were in love with your cousin. And they were in love with my cousin.

They'd fallen on hard times. Yeah. I have to say I was so delighted that I had such a strange arc as being in love with your cousin. And they'd fallen on hard times. Yeah. I have to say I was so delighted that I had such a strange arc as being in love with my cousin and being confused about it. I mean, it's like as a 14-year-old kid, that's a good part. It kind of found favor, what, afterwards? Did it tank when it came out? It struggled.

Yeah. And it got canceled after we didn't quite finish know finish our third season like it was just not making it. Ratings wise. Yeah you know reviews and I think we're good and and then it the thing is we won an Emmy the first year. So that gives you a life long. Yeah I think without that we probably you know I think Fox you know kind of couldn't cancel it when we'd won that it was probably a big pain in the ass for them. But we were always kind of, you know, feeling like we were going to get the axe at any moment. That's not a nice feeling.

It's yeah, it's a lot. You just want to keep doing it. I mean, we all loved making it. So it was scary a little bit. Must have been, I know we're on our way to talk about the office and British TV, but it must have been strange so young to be elevated into that company. Right? David Erick Yeah, for sure. Mason Hickman You've basically been doing TV ads back there in Toronto. David Erick Stuff like that.

Mason Hickman One for the Pillsbury Doughboy. So did it feel like a kind of... How did it happen that you got into that? Into working in general. No, well, no, actually... Into the series. Into the series, yeah. Yeah, well, it is... There was a bit of a barrier because I'm Canadian and you need a visa.

It's hard to get a US job. It's like a big fence you have to jump over. But the thing is that I had I had just gotten some management in the states, a management company that I'm still with off the back of your advert work. Well, I had been working sort of three years or so. I'd done a couple of, you know, movies of the week. A lot of things were shooting in Toronto at that time. Right. So for US TV. Yeah, yeah. There were some things for the US and some Canadian things.

It was like a big industry in Toronto. And then my agent, Amanda Rosenthal, who I was with, she had some shared clients with like, with the US management company. They kind of get farmed out of Canada a little bit sometimes. That's kind of one way that people cross that you know that bridge a little and I got a manager and then I got a part on a Fox TV show that never aired. The Grubs.

The Grubs. Which I watched a little bit this morning. You can see it? Mm-hmm. Where did you find that? You sound like you're keen to watch it. Well I didn't know that it was ever made viewable. It's on a little platform called YouTube.

The Grubs. Yes, episode one. That's amazing. Does that worry you? It never went out. I mean, no, it's just... You're actually really good in it. I like the show.

I mean, it was funny. It was written by great writers. A lot of them came from The Simpsons. Yeah, Randy Quaid plays your dad. And Carol Kane is my mom. Yeah. And it's a kind of... It's a funny show.

From what I got, it was a kind of almost Simpson-esque... Yeah. It's a little......m of almost Simpson-esque... Yeah. It's a little... ...mise-en-scene. Yeah. And, you know, it was sort of maybe a little typical. It was like just a multi-cam, you know, dysfunctional family, kind of not breaking new ground. It is like that...

Yeah. It's got... The dad's extremely... What's the... He's kind of oafish. Sort of an albundee kind of... Yeah. He's not...

...proto-type. ...ambitious. He's low- low road. He's a loaf. The mum is all competent. Kind of weirdo. Yes. Carol Kane, being hilarious. You made seven of those, was it seven or eight? I think eight. None of them aired.

No, and one day the producers came, at the beginning of the eighth week when we were about to tape, they said, we're being canceled, they were crying. They're being canceled before it's gone out. Yeah. You know, something wasn't working. And it was heartbreaking, you know, but it ended up being very, you know, kind of miraculous

for me because I couldn't have done Arrested Development had that not happened. And I got Arrested Development, or I got the shot to audition for it because of this show, because Mitrowitz had seen the show. I think he was working in a writer's room on a series and they you know like got tapes of I don't know TV pilots that they would watch during lunchtime and he saw the grubs and saw me so he was sort of aware of me and and I got that show the next year, Arrested Development. You know we got a little bit of time. Is it worth thinking about,

that must've been extraordinary. Like, I just think back to when I got my break in TV from being a, basically a magazine writer and I was hired by Michael Moore on TV Nation, it felt like I'd been taken to Oz in some way. Like- How? Well, in the sense that the magazine I was on was failing.

And so there was no money. If you went somewhere to interview someone, they'd say, well, that'll be a train ticket. Yeah, where you're going to stay. You're not going to stay overnight. That would be a hotel. There was no money for anything. Nothing.

And it was an endless feeling of people just hunting around for scraps. And what were you interested in doing at that time? I wanted to write. This was the mid-90s and in fact early 90s. So it was like Seinfeld first season had just aired. The Simpsons had been going for a few years. Larry Sanders was second or third season.

And my dream was to be a writer on one of those shows. Those are good ambitions. Yeah. And by the way, that's still my ambition. And one day, I hope very much to achieve it. And anything you can do to facilitate that will not go unrewarded. All right, I'll keep that in mind.

And whenever I'm with Hollywood royalty, and yes, I do consider you such, there's a little part of me thinking like, hey, maybe Michael's gonna like me, and maybe he'll say, you can write on my new movie. So you're connected to those same goals still. I'm on a long detour from my dream of writing. I'm being a little facetious.

I don't think The Simpsons would be the dream. I've sort of come around to the idea. But back then, though. Maybe writing on The Simpsons wouldn't be the dream gig. I've kind of finally arrived. You don't think this is just a very recognizable, cognizant dissonance? I think from knowing someone who writes on The Simpsons,

it doesn't seem all that appealing. It might be hard, yeah. And even though it must be quite fun. I was going to say very well paid. Maybe. I think it is. Is it? So then when I went to a

And the Larry Sanders Show. Amazing. Would have been fun. There's some overlap there, I think, because actually the two writers who were perhaps the most esteemed, certainly in my eyes, one was Paul Sims who went on to do news radio and a bunch of other stuff, and the other was Judd Apatow. Maybe you've heard of him.

I'm joking, of course, people in radio land, because he produced, executive produced a film called Superbad. Yeah, he did. And he came from Larry Sanders' world. And he came from Larry Sanders. And he came from Larry Sanders. And he came from Gary. And he kind of, could I say, like incubated a sort of style and an approach and a form.

Definitely. But you were asking about me, and I haven't quite finished. No, no. And it's fascinating. I mean, we're in a sweet spot for me. When you brought up those shows, I'm like, here we go. Really? Yeah. But you were born in 1988.

Yeah. I would think I was a kid during The Simpsons' absolute golden era. And it was on TV. You know, you watch things on TV. Like, Sunday night was the new episode. They would re-air the new episode, like, halfway through the week. So, you know, because you watch it, you like watch it closely, and then you get one more chance to see the new one, to watch it again and really take it in.

But my point was simply, I mean, for you at 1415, I guess I'm just wondering how transformative that felt, if at all? The most possible, yeah. Enormous. Even when I got onto the grubs, it was insane to be on a show like what I watch on TV, because I had sort of only done Lifetime Movies of the Week and Canadian television. This just felt like a step into something I actually watch.

And like, I think that was it. It's like, okay, now I'm getting something I'm interested, like excited about. You know, there's a temptation when you watch something like that to think like, wow, I love these actors, this is a great show, it must be fun. But was it a happy set, like for the most part? It was, yeah, for sure. Yeah, everybody had a great time, everybody loved what everybody else was doing. It was like, there was a lot of excitement and support. I felt so supported by those guys. You know, I mean also that was another thing.

I was like 14, you know, to be supported by those people like Jeffrey Tambor and Will Arnett and everybody, Jason and David and Tony Hale and Jessica Walter and everybody. Who does Tony Hale play? He's Buster. Oh yeah. So that was, it meant it was enormous to me, like when they would say, you know, Will would say to me a lot, you're really funny.

And that was enormous to my self-worth and just self-confidence. I mean, cause he's like the funniest person I've ever seen. Yeah. We were talking about the, so they introduced you to the office. What had you been, we talked about the Simpsons growing up in Toronto, it's called Brampton, is it?

Yeah. Brampton, which is like, I guess it's a suburb of Toronto. Yeah, Toronto has sort of satellite little cities and that's one of them. You took to acting early, right? How old? Well, I mean, I was sort of acting in a playful way, like when I was like eight, you know, or nine. I mean, you know, they have kind of courses, like classes you can take on the weekend.

It's one of the things you can, you know, sign kids up for. And I did it with some friends and I really liked it. It was really fun. And it was one of the few things I felt I was doing well. I like, you know, I was also playing baseball. I was like the shame of the team. And my dad was coaching, you know, so just burning shame every time, every week, just not having fun at all.

I enjoyed baseball later in life, but as a kid, it was just like this. I'm bad at this and all of that stuff. You enjoyed playing it later? Yeah, like when I was grown up and there were like no stakes like yeah you didn't have to like you know show that you're worthy or something. It's hard to be the kid who sucks at baseball. Yeah. Most of the friends I grew up with are like gifted athletes. That could be hard. Yeah. But you found your I think you found your did you find your little tribe at school like yeah I mean I always had, you know, it wasn't like prohibitive to having friends,

but you know, I just didn't feel, then when I did this acting stuff, I was like, I'm good at this. And you know, I was getting validation. So it was, I liked it. And then a teacher I had kind of said to me and my mom, you should consider getting an agent, you know, that was like, you know, not on our radar, but he was so supportive like that. And then we did, and then I met the most like supportive sweet agent. And she's still in my life, Amanda Rosenthal.

And but she was like, probably like, she was like a kid. I mean, she was like 23, maybe. How old were you? I was nine. I wonder what you were doing at nine made someone think this kid's got the guts. I don't know. I think I was really comfortable in that class like I felt the support of this teacher he was laughing at what we were doing a lot and he was really so I felt really confident in there and I think I was you know like playful in a way that

you don't normally aren't normally I just I felt really comfortable in there so I think he created a really good environment and he saw a good side of me or something. It was like that, I think. Did you, at nine, did you think of your, like did you have an identity that was in any way invested in movies and TV? Did you think of yourself as a-

No, I mean, no. A fan of anything? Well, I loved, yeah. Everybody loved TV. It's all we did was like watch TV all the time when I was a kid. And it was kind of exciting the thought of being on the TV, you know, just as a gimmick as a as a crazy, you know, like experience. And when I did, I mean, I was I did like the first audition I went on, I got I got the

part and it was just a commercial. Was that the Pillsbury Dove? No, it was for Tim Hortons what's Tim Hortons Tim Hortons is a Canadian you know coffee shop chain that's all over Canada and it's even started to infect certain northern states like Michigan I say in fact facetiously it's a wonderful it's a wonderful we love Tim Hortons. Is the coffee pretty good? The coffee's nice, yeah, and you get a donut and you can get, and then they've branched out into making sandwiches and chili and bread bowls and stuff.

It's just a very, it's a staple of Canada, you know, it's just like, it's just part of the vocabulary of Canada. And anyway, I did a commercial, it was like, it was not a paid commercial, it was for, Tim Hortons every summer did like a charity summer camp thing where you know you could leave your loose change in a little box and like it ended up going to you know kids who can't go to summer camp and there's a program like that and I did a commercial for it and but you know I appeared in it for like you know half a second but we would see it come on TV too and my friends would see it too at school you know and so there was like a certain high

on being like kids are like I saw you on TV, kids are like, I saw you on TV. And it was like, ooh, that's a nice drug. When you're doing like, when you're a child actor, let's say from 14 when you're in Arrested Development, are you no longer in Canadian school? Like, what is it? How does the education, how does that work? I was doing sort of correspondence education. At first my, you know, high school was kind of, you know,

helping with keeping me up-to-date, sending along, but then they were like, we can't put all this work into your, you know, you're not here, like, and then they were like, we can't do that anymore. So I did an online education course through the rest of my high school years and I actually didn't graduate because I was one credit short because It was physical education which you can't do through correspondence so I could have gone back like the year after all my friends graduated and just done a course of

You know physical education with kids younger than me, but that sounded like a living hell. So I was like, I just won't have a diploma, and I don't. So you never graduated high school? No. That could hold you back. Well, I mean, you know, that was really a consideration at that time, because I didn't, it wasn't clear to me what my future

was gonna look like, actually. When Arrested Development got canceled, I was like, do I need to get this? How old were you then? What, seventeen? Seventeen or something. And yeah, I, you know, I wasn't at all obvious that I would be able to continue working as an actor until I got, you know, until I got this job on Superbad.

That was the next job. And, you know, and then, but that was kind of like, without that without that I don't know I would have had to do something else I think. We should talk about Superbad for a second just because it was such an era-defining show and it was massive and I remember seeing it it seems a long time ago now. It is. It was something it's gonna mash up of a Hollywood movie where they kind of indie art house feel like it was kind of picaresque, if I can use that term. Do we all know what that means? I looked it up not long ago, but now I forget what it said. It's like a pico is a Spanish word for a rogue, and it's a rogue's journey, but it's the suggestion

that it's a series of incidents involving... Yeah, it's a narrative word. Yeah, right. Because it sounds so much like picturesque that people... Might conflate those. Like me, get confused. Yeah, but because it sounds so much like picturesque that people might conflate like me get confused Yeah, but I remember having this exact discussion not long ago, but I didn't retain it Happy to help and it's and it's and it's you and it's a Romans building No, it's not. I just wanted to say that building is Roman I think is the term and it kind of is it's an element of a building. I'm talking about Roman architecture, I don't know what you're going on about.

In many respects, it is all of these things and many more. It has a sort of, go on, you had one more. Because it's you and Jonah Hill. It's a hero's journey in a sense. That's true. Yeah. You're trying to get laid, I think. Yeah.

I mean, it's not a hero's journey, actually. And then McLovin. One of my friends, I'm gonna shout him out, Joe Cornish, after we saw Superbad, he was like, hey, you were kind of like McLovin at school. Yeah. It's a strange thing to say to someone. How would you define who McLovin was in that film?

Who he was. He was like a third wheel to the duo. He wasn't like conventional leading man. Yeah, you're right. It's actually a really interesting function, that character. But the twist is, well, one of the twists is that he seems to be very comfortable in

his own skin. Oh yeah, totally, like the most confident person. Maybe too comfortable. It's the total charm of the character, I think. He's like so confident. Yeah. And you're like, what are you so confident about? It's awesome though.

And then in the end, he kind of, spoiler alert, he pulls an amazing looking young woman, I think. Yeah. So maybe that was a compliment, Job. Thank you for that. I get it. When that movie came out, and even to this day, that's the thing that I get kind of yelled at me the most is McLovin.

Which is strange, because you didn't play McLovin. No, but that doesn't kind of matter in that moment. There's just like an association and they say it. McLovin's a great word. It wasn't his name in the movie though, it was his nickname, was it? It's a pseudonym that he invents. For himself. What do you think connected with people about that movie?

Well like you said, it's kind of amazing that a movie like that got to get made. Like you were saying about Judd, Judd kind of shepherded that movie into being because he was in that position. He had kind of created that position for himself. And that was a movie that Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg kind of wrote as high schoolers. And Judd was sort of-

Based on maybe their upbringing. Yeah, yeah, definitely based on... And, you know, just off of, you know, that was just their sensibility too. That's like the kind of movie they wanted to see and make. And, yeah, I somewhat lost my train of thought. Well, we were saying, and it connected because, I think because what's been voted,

I could look at my notes at this point, but I can't be bothered. It's been voted the funniest movie of all time by a panel of scientists. They studied some data and apparently, based on reviews and how much the word funny turns up I think. Okay, I like that as a metric. They harvested all the reviews. What if it has the word not in front of it?

Maybe they controlled for that with a Boolean search term with and exclude brackets. Peter Bregman It's so easy to exclude that I think at this time. Mason Hickman At this level. Hey, I can do that right now. Mason Hickman Would it be too, I try not to be too, I always hesitate before using this term, basic bitch in my questioning style

Is it still like to do that? You could just say bitch But you know it was obviously having read the narrative is is that and then you found fame and then it was too much and it Was overwhelming we reached us. That's true. That's true. Yeah, I was like Not not like into attention really that much. Yeah. And I was like 19 and I also just didn't know how to create boundaries in a healthy way. And yeah, I had to figure it out. What does that look like?

I mean, by the way, that's something I think boundaries is something I'm still working on. Right. Yeah, me too. But do you think for people at home, I always, I always imagine them saying like, what's so hard about being famous and successful? And that was what I was receiving as well. And that was complicating it. How would you explain it to them? I was a little confused because I was also, I was also, you know, so I would

react poorly sometimes to being recognized. Seriously? Yeah. Rage-prone? No, but you know, I would get basically kind of go into fight or flight mode because I had sort of some kind of PTSD from it. Really? I had PTSD. I mean, I had them all. No, I mean, I did because they went badly so many, you know, I... It's a long time ago, so I'm trying to remember, honestly, like, why.

Like, I think I had some bad experiences. And would that be like people presuming on your time too much? Like, is it like you're in a coffee shop and then everyone's like, oh, my God. And then there's a clusterfuck of attention hounds. Yeah, a little bit. I was in Los Angeles too, and I find Los Angeles is kind of extreme for that. Like I feel real spotlight syndrome in Los Angeles. Even now, I mean, it's, we feel very exposed or something. And I was like 19 and I was like suddenly way more recognizable, like from one day to

the next. And it kind of shocked me or something. And a lot of it was very positive, of course. And you meet great people, but then you also, you meet people who have no sense of, I don't know, boundaries or something. And you're being photographed, and you're self-conscious, and yeah, it just, I liked my life better before that.

And so I kind of was like, and you feel a big loss. I think I like to have a little bit of control. And a huge loss of control. I think I was reacting to the huge loss of control. Did you find you were reacting to your reaction as well? Maybe. Well, I was like, I was feeling a little bit of shame about my reaction. That's what I think what I mean. Yeah, because if you don't think of yourself as being a dick, right?

And then you know just you being angry by things that maybe you think other people wouldn't be triggered by then you're like Yeah, maybe I am a people handled it much better than me too. Some people like it. People like it I like I worked with Jack Black in 2009 so this is still what this year right around that time, year one. Apparently that's being rediscovered now. Yeah, well some people like it. Some people look kind of funny. Some people like it.

I wish I had watched it as prep for this because I'd be able to say like I really enjoyed it. I liked the post. Well you know, friends, like I've worked with Kenneth Lonergan. Yes, the amazing playwright. Who's a genius and he really likes that movie. Yeah. He's like, I like you. You played two cavemen? Yeah, we're cavemen and it's like a biblical comedy. And it's directed by Harold Ramis. Harold Ramis, the legend, director of

Groundhog Day. Ghostbusters. Didn't direct Ghostbusters but wrote it. He didn't direct Ghostbusters. No. He's in fucking Ghostbusters. He's in fucking Ghostbusters. That's the point. He's an amazing guy. I mean, I would never trade the experience of making that movie. It was one of the greatest times I ever had working on a movie. But with Jack, Jack Black, he was mega famous.

He's probably more famous now, possibly. He's just been in the roadblocks movie. He's in so many movies. Which I recommend. What is that? What are you talking about? How old is your oldest child? Three and a half.

Are you talking about Minecraft? Isn't he in that? Oh shit, what did I say? Roadblocks? Yeah, you meant Minecraft? Yeah, I did. So it was natural for me to be confused. Yeah, I'm afraid so.

Because you said something that made- They should make a roadblocks movie, though. What is roadblocks? First of all, it's roadblocks, not roadblocks, but a very understandable mistake. I don't feel like I made a mistake yet. I feel like you have. Roblox, R-O-B-L-O-X. And it's, I feel like this is not my audience or my demographic.

It's really for kids aged- So it's a kid's kids aged four to 12. Is it a toy? It's an online platform in which people can design their own very primitive video games. And then they basically, so it's kind of crowd sourced programming, but they're very blocky and basic. Oh, that sounds great.

Make old kind of platform games. Yeah, I've alighted it with Minecraft mine fucking craft. Yeah Retake don't keep all that in that's good stuff lose that stuff. He's in the jack like is in the minecraft I recommend the minecraft jack is yeah I mean he's like in every movie right now that makes like four billion dollars He's a giant giant star, but he was then did you see the minecraft movie? No, I haven't okay. I'm sorry That's all right. I haven't seen anything I haven't seen a Nora yet

Really? It's like I have two small kids right now. Nora was on my list of things to ask you about I can't remember why though. I'm dying to see it. It's very cool. Like it's it. I love Sean Baker Yeah, that's the thing. That's why you you should be in a Sean Baker film. Yeah. Has he asked? No. What's your list of I know we're on a tangent of directors he would most my list like to work with that might surprise people? I'll start. Michael Haneke. Yes. Right. Love Michael. I heard you mentioned Michael Haneke in your Mark Maron interview. He's amazing. For people at home.

Legendary director. We've overused the word legendary. No, he's amazing. For people at home, legendary director, we've overused the word legendary. No, he's amazing. Cineast, auteur from Austria with- One of the greats. Ooh, so what is the word? Ascetic and disturbing depictions of cruelty, funny games, Benny's video, white ribbon.

Benny's video, so good. But we're the only two people in this country probably seen that. It's great. That's the one before Funny Games. Do you remember it? The kid gets obsessed with like a video of a pig getting executed.

Yeah, I completely remember it. It's crazy, that movie. Would you do a Michael Haneke film? Oh, of course. I hope he makes another film soon. It's been a little while. Do you think he's on hiatus? Yeah, I hope he makes something film soon. It's been a little while. Do you think he's on hiatus? Yeah, I hope he makes something. I mean, he's incredible. I love The Castle, Kafka.

That's a Hanukkah? Yeah, it's fantastic. But Sean Baker is great. Yeah, that's a huge list of people that I would love to work. I love Hong Song-soo. I'd love to work with him. I would be able to say something now if I knew who that was. You know, he's South Korean. He's making like three movies a year. What was his most famous one? The most famous one?

I don't really know that he's quite broken through into the lexicon yet. But he has a movie called Right Now Wrong Then, which is the first one I saw. And it was just like, this is amazing. And he has another one called Yourself and Yours. Claire's camera is what. But he really has so many. He really does do like three a year. He has like almost every film festival he's at.

And he was a juror at Cannes just now. I was hoping to meet him, but then I was told you can't meet the jurors because there's some fear that you might bribe them or something. Which you would never do. Ah, let's make that clear. Your point though was-

You could just Venmo them or something. You don't even have to meet in person in order to collude. Go on the dark web Get some crypto. It's not that complicated. It's very simple You can get anything on the dark web So they say you just need a tall browser Your point was Jack Black took to fame So graceful a land. Yeah, I mean Jack, you, the way he handled it, it really did make me feel ashamed.

He was so, he was so born for it. Now I don't feel ashamed. I feel like, you know, I react the way I react and that's me. And that, you know, some people are great at that. Some people are extroverts and I'm not. And I kind of don't like shame myself about it anymore. You wrote two things that I enjoyed. One was a Shouts and Murmurs humor piece for the New Yorker.

Oh, I'm glad you read that. My man Jeremy. Jeremy. Yeah. And a short story for McSweeney's, Dave Eggers' amazing literary journal. Yeah, quarterly kind of magazine. And that was a short story called- Pinecone, it's called.

Pinecone about an actor called Carol Silver, which is sort of... It's amazing you're bringing this up. Oddly... It's 20 years ago I wrote it, I think. Yeah, it would make sense. I think I was 18, yeah. It felt like... And that, you know, on the surface, Carol Silver somewhat rhymes with Michael Cera,

pointing that out, my detective work and is he's an actor He's struggling with aspects of fame and his reaction to fame Yeah, and it felt like you're processing something in both of places never thought of that. Come on. You're right. No, it's true I mean, I just thought it was kind of a funny character. It's not me that character but um Yeah, it was probably a catharsis He has a tantrum at a woman at a fast food restaurant because she says she doesn't like one of his movies. So he goes, oh really? Oh wow.

It's so funny. And then starts throwing money at her to reimburse her for the price of the ticket. Did you get popcorn? Well, let me cover that too. Oh my god, right. And then he has extreme shame about it. And then he gets shame.

Yeah. And then he runs out of money and realizes he can just ask for the money back. Oh yeah, and he asks her for the money back. That's right. Wow. Thanks for telling me the premise of something I wrote and me enjoying it a lot. Do you not write much now? Yeah, well, I'm trying to make a movie now. So I've been, the last few years I've been kind of producing a few screenplays, one by myself, one with a couple friends. One was announced and I think the cast was released, is that in production?

We're trying to shoot it this fall. Love is not the answer. Yeah. Are you also doing a Charles Portis adaptation? Yes. Are you a Charles Portis fan? I could see that. Yes.

Yeah. Well, he started as a journalist. You saw me coming. I could imagine that you would love him, Well, he started as a journalist. You saw me coming. I could imagine that you would love him, yeah. Have you read many of it? He's an American novelist, not as well known as he should be. He's dead now, died in 2020. Best known for True Grit, which was made into a couple of well-known films.

Yeah. Do you have a favorite book of his? Well, I have adapted Masters of Atlantis. I haven't read that one. Okay well it would be easy to say that's my favorite I think but I also love Dog of the South. I love True Grit. True Grit I read in one day which is not my style at all. I don't normally get through a novel in a day but I remember just I was like halfway through it at one point and I was just like I'm just gonna read this whole thing today. What's Masters of Atlantis about?

It's about a secret society, secret brotherhood called the Gnomons and the man who is sort of the figurehead who sort of accidentally becomes like the leader of this cult. It's very funny. And it spans sort of decades. What do I mean? cult. It's very funny. It spans sort of decades. What do I mean? We don't get too into the weeds, but what was it about it that sort of felt connected with you and felt that you felt that it was something that was worth putting on screen? Well,

I had been wanting to collaborate with a friend of mine named Vernon Chapman, who's a brilliant comedy writer and my other friend, Antonio Campos, who's a writer and director and and yeah it was started as that it was like well this would be a really fun thing for us all to make and then it's been very challenging to get it made because we actually adapted it into a mini series rather than a movie it was just kind of too hard to fit into a feature and one of my favorite formats is like the four-part kind of unabridged movie like the Bergman ones like scenes from

a marriage and Fanny and Alexander and so and once we kind of figured out that we could shape it like that at all I felt very right so I've been pushing that along. Is there any Scientology overlap? It'd be easy to find overlap. One could extrapolate that a bit. Actually you know I don't know if Portis was thinking that, but like, you know, the Scientologists have that SPs, you know, they call people SPs. I believe I am an SP.

You seem like an SP. I could spot that from a mile away. Oh my God. Yeah. I opened the door a crack and you just came barreling through. It's like kind of written all over you. But in the book they have... Would you like to tell people what SP stands for? Suppressed person, isn't it?

Suppressive. Suppressive. Yeah, that's better. I guess. Suppressed is like it's a sociopath. Suppressed is like you're suppressed. But if you're suppressive, you are going to be put affecting others with your suppressiveness. Yeah, you are basically infecting your sociopath, who is kind of has a contagious immorality

that's preventing other people from being their best selves and journalists by definition are SP's but in Masters of Atlantis there's a term that the no man's use which is PS So it does feel like a little you know at least you could kind of project an overlap onto that that could you know could be inspired by but I mean, I don't know, there's none of the perniciousness in the Charles Portis novel. They're sort of harmless. You know, so I don't know. I'd be curious if he was.

I would love to ask him. Have you had any exposure to Scientology? No, but I'm sure I will be treated to some after this discussion. I don't think you've said anything. Oh, I'm not picking a fight. Have you worked with Tom Cruise? I haven't worked with Tom Cruise. Oh, yes, I have.

Crazy thing to forget. I have worked with Tom Cruise. I love that. I mean, I dream of the day when I forget working with Tom Cruise. That's crazy. Yeah, I did work with Tom Cruise. But the memories just won't go. I completely did.

It was the MTV Movie Awards. And I don't know if you, I don't even know if that's you know you ever have seen those but of course yeah Okay, well these they did like you know funny intro Movie video things that they did pre taped funny things and Tom Cruise did one where he was playing his character from Tropic Thunder Of course you know the movie mogul guy Written by my cousin Justin. Yeah great'd like to name drop that where I can. And so they did like, you know, some little, they were shooting all day these little, you know,

clips of him and that character interacting with various people coming in and out. And I came in and I did a little moment with him. Nice. Yeah, it was surreal to work with Tom Cruise. It was very good. Was it a good experience? It was fascinating. Tom, like, you know Tom runs the set. I mean, I was really there for like five minutes, but what I observed was like he was like the first AD on the set. I don't know if that term means anything. He was like the guy.

That's worse than an XP. He was like, let's shoot this way first. He's got to catch a flight. We'll get this, and then we'll come around to that. I mean, it was his thing. And everybody was like, yeah. I mean, he was such a leader. And it's surreal to meet Tom Cruise.

And he was very friendly. The first moment I had with him, I arrived. They were shooting. And I was talking to the writer, the guy who was writing these scripts, about the thing. We were just mumbling while they were shooting. But they could hear us. And it was just like 40 feet away.

And Tom Cruise looks at me. I've never met him and they're in the middle of a take and he looks and he goes, is that Michael Cera talking during a fucking take? He was joking. Yeah. But it was also like do shut up, you know, but so surreal. Take some. And then I met him, he's like talking during a fucking take.

I was like, and I knew he was playing around so I was like, hey, it wasn't me, it was the writer. He was like, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. And writer He was like I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I was like I'm kidding. I'm kidding, too So many levels Would you take a role in the Mission Impossible movie you've sort of resisted franchises well, I don't think I have a franchise resistance, I think I I Think I know what you're referring to I think I turned one down did you once yeah I did which one you allowed to say it was a

Harry Potter one the hair of Fantastic Beasts I mean I don't even know if I was offered I think I just declined to to engage with it because and I really think the reason was I didn't want well I think it would be like probably six years commitment or something and but also like we were talking about earlier I did sort of make a conscientious choice to like I don't know like limit my exposure a little bit or so or just try and be a little more in control of it and I felt like doing doing especially little kids movies, I don't know, I had a big fear of doing things

that I'd get too famous a little bit. I think that's changed a little. I think I've outgrown that particular feeling, but I think that's what that was at that time. But if a franchise came along now and seemed interesting, I don't think, on the grounds of it being a franchise, I would, you know, leave the office,

storm out of the office or anything. If it was in an office. If they created a superhero, yeah, Marvel, you haven't gotten a version to the Marvel. Like a superhero who is a big fan of Derry. I could play Derry products. Derry, I thought you were saying Derry. I was like, it's a place in Ireland.

There's a joke here and I'm not... That would be very specific. That would be quite weird. But you were right that there was a joke that you were not. We should talk. How are we doing for time? We're good. How are you feeling? I feel good.

Good. Thank you for doing this. I feel great. I'm enjoying it I have a little bit I'm a little self-conscious always that I'm a very boring person to listen to but I just have to put that feeling aside on the contrary I have to say that Should we I know I feel like oh are you just doing all the hits Louie kind of grow up? Fine, I'm doing me and that's the way it is. You got Charles Portis. We've gone off piste

We should talk about little bit we're off the way off piste I mean we're off the like the the beaten track the usual fucking junket bullshit people don't only ask about Charles Portis No, that's what I was counting on that. That was the ace in the hole They are counting on Barbie being mentioned. Okay. But here's the way in, which I like. It was Greta Gerwig, brilliant director, who co-wrote the film with her other half, Noah Baumbach, has said, we always talked about how Alan, your role with Alan, is a tragic Mike Lee character

trapped in a Barbie movie. I liked that. That's pretty good. So who, Alan, Alan is, first of all, who is Alan in the movie for people who haven't seen it? Your Ken's friend. Yeah, he's Ken's buddy. And there's loads of Ken's, there's multiracial Ken's, singing, dancing Ken's, there's only one Alan. Alan was a real toy, as, dancing Kens, there's only one Alan. And was a real toy, as I understand.

Yeah. Yeah. Didn't take off. Discontinued toy, I think. Goals didn't put up huge numbers. Didn't feel Ken needed a friend. Because Ken was already an auxiliary character. Yes, that was the key.

So you don't need to go further into his world. It'd be like, I don't know, it's like seeing Newman's friend on Seinfeld to use a Seinfeld reference. Like Newman's already a friend of a friend. We don't need to go further into that world, even though it would've been fascinating. Yeah, it'd be like a Christopher Nolan film. Like, they'd just be, I mean, I'm just kind of referencing.

That'd be a good show, actually, where you just keep going into smaller. Inception, where there's just different layers. You get further and further from Alan's friend and then Alan's friend's friend and you're like where is the main story in the main character when we're so far off. But it was as I understand it you were initially it was turned down on your behalf is that right like an agent? Well no it wasn't turned down but my manager called me and you know he had said to them

it's very unlikely that Michael will want to do it and I don't know why but He I mean I think what he did actually I think he probably did to give him some credit Willie Mercer my manager of almost 20 years because he hates this story and he hates that his anecdote has become public and he's like Why you know? But but I think he like was preparing them for a no. And I think it kind of helped me get the job, probably. I don't think he meant it that way. But you know, he set the table for me to like get the part. To give him some credit.

But I don't think, I had just had a son. And I don't think Willie thought I would want to go overseas for like Several months, but it was like the most enticing thing to my wife and I to come work here in London for like The family yeah, so the three of us we just had one son base yourself for something. We were living in Primrose Hill. Oh Five months have been awful. Yeah, and I quite dangerous around there people run in the markets the baguette You gotta like not so careful not to bump into people when you're going to for your coffee You could get mugged by Jude law Exactly on a heavy night you could actually could happen

Yeah, I guess it could or Brian Cox if they were going into constantly playing a foot pad in a Victorian adaptation It's like dream world. I mean, you know Primrose Hill Hill, a friend of mine was like, it looks like a child designed this neighborhood. Yeah. It's like, yeah, but anyway, we loved it. I once went there and there was a protest though, because kind of getting more- What were they protesting? The butchers were selling foie gras.

Okay. Which is such a Primrose Hill. I haven't eaten it in years. It was getting violent. They were literally holding placards. But it's a valid thing to protest, unless there's sort of vegan-friendly foie gras. I don't know if there is. Like native.

Well, I'm being facetious, but obviously foie gras is horrendous if you make it in the traditional French way. They ram. I don't think there's another way to make it, is there? I think they can actually just kind of leave cream in the goose's coop and hope that the goose eats too much of it. It's not cost-effective. Leave cream in the coop and hope the goose eats too much of it. It's not cost effective. Leave cream in the coop and hope the goose will eat it?

Yeah. I think that is, I mean, you're looking at me like I'm crazy. I think that's real. It doesn't sound traditional. It's not traditional. I don't think the French approve. Cedigalus. Any French people listening to this would go,

leave cream in the coop. They'd be like, no, that isn't. You gotta ram it down with a stick otherwise it doesn't taste the same. It's not the same. It's not the same. We should talk about your new movie. Yeah.

Have you seen it? Yes, I enjoyed it. Oh, okay. I'm very proud to be a part of it. Must have been wild being on the set. The star list on its own. Oh, yeah. It's like...

The great Richard Iowati. Richard Iowati. Have you spoken to Rich? Ever? He'd be a dream guest. Yeah. Oh, I'd love to see. He's done Adam Buxton's podcast so many times. I almost feel like Well, you know going all the way back to the... He's damaged goods at this point. He said it all hasn't he? He's sloppy seconds. I'm like dude

When you talked about... I've got Michael Cera. I don't need When you talked about the British comedy thing like loving the British comedy discovery Right around that time when I was 18. I was obsessed with Rich and with Garth Marenghi's Dark Place. Right, I've heard this. And I knew Edgar Wright, and when I first came to London the very first time, which was in promotion of Superbad, Edgar introduced me to Matt Berry and Rich. Was this because you'd already made Scotty Pilgrim?

No. This was before, how did you know Edgar Wright before that then? Well, Edgar was sort of... The director of Scott Pilgrim and so many other great hot fuzz. National treasure. Yeah. And Edgar... National treasure is what he is.

He didn't direct national treasure. No. That was directed by someone else. That was... I wish I could say who. That'd be cool if I was just encyclopedic. Edgar introduced me to them. I knew Edgar because he, I think he was already starting to think about Scott Pilgrim. Maybe we met about it, but that would be a few years before we made it. But I was like in hog heaven, meeting Rich.

I said Scotty Pilgrim. Does anyone call him that? Scotty Pilgrim. Am I remembering Scotty Pippen? Very familiar. Scotty Pippen is a basketball player. Yeah, he's from the Wolfs. Does anyone call it Scotty Pilgrim? Nobody calls it that. So why did I say that? Scotty Pippen. Because you were thinking of Scotty Pippen is a basketball player. Does anyone call it Scottie Pilgrim? Nobody calls it that.

So why did I say that? Scottie Pippen. Because you were thinking of Scottie Pippen. Remember? The Chicago Bull. Or did he play for the Knicks? No, he was Bulls. There we go. So you came to London, you met Richard Ayoade, having grown up on Garth Marenghi. It's odd, isn't it? Because I think Garth Marenghi's Dark Place, I haven't watched.

Well, I don't think that, I know that. When I came here, everybody I met, I was talking to about it because I thought it was a massive show here, but it's not. It's a very small following, but- How would that have been on in Canada? How?

I saw it like on my computer. Someone sent it to me, a comedy nerd guy is Richard I already in Dark Place Yeah, okay. He's brilliant in it and he wrote and directed it Riz Ahmed Tom Hanks, maybe you've heard of him Brian Crenston. Maybe you've heard of him Jeffrey, right? I mean Benedict Cumberbatch Yeah, Benedict Cumberbatch. Yeah. Michael Cera. It's an all-star cast. Scarlett Johansson. And, of course, the male lead.

Hope Davis. Is Benicio Del Toro. Yes. And Mia, just not to leave her. Mia Threepleton. Not to specifically leave her out. And introducing. Yes.

It was fantastic. I imagine it was fun, like, maybe it isn't that fun, because you're not obviously all going around in character, like it's probably like a lot of waiting around, is it? What's it like? Or is it after dark you are coughing drinks in the hotel lobby and like trading stories about – and Bill Murray, did we mention Bill Murray? Bill Murray and Willem Dafoe and F. Murray Abraham, Charlotte Gainsburg. It is a great hangout. I mean it's an amazing...

You don't have to pretend that it was if it wasn't. Do you know what I mean? I'm not... Because I feel like there's pressure when you're doing a joke like, that Charlotte Gainsburg wouldn't stop kidding around and she was always playing pranks. You know, like, we don't have to do that. She wasn't. She wasn't. I won't pretend she was playing pranks. You're right. But, um... Thank you for stopping me.

I've killed you. I've killed you in your tracks. Thank you for stopping me from saying it. So you don't have to... It's a workplace. It's your office. Yeah, but it's a joyful thing to be a part of, for sure. And but it is specific.

I mean, like, he creates a really specific atmosphere and working method. It's not boring. It is. You know, they're long days and it's rigorous in a sense. And it's the opposite of, you know, that kind of free flowing, you know, you just start doing it and you will capture whatever you do. It's not that. It's not that, is it? No. That's a way of doing something else. I don't think you wouldn't achieve this kind of no you wouldn't movie that way

No, this is a specific, you know and quite dialed in Does he give much direction to you as an actor? Yes. He absolutely does like what well You know, you'll you'll try something and then he'll make adjustments to you and you really will hone and refine. It kind of depends on what's being required in the moment, but like, you know, some things are very technical in a way that's really fun as an actor, but like, and almost like a dance, really. Like, you know, there's a shot in the movie, you saw the movie, there's a shot, it's kind

of, maybe you wouldn't even recall it, but like, we sit down to eat pigeons together, it's quite early in the movie. That's right. And the camera tracks in, and like there's a lot of stuff happening, there's like three servants that set the food down, one lifts a cloche. I love that word. Wow.

I love that word. That's a good, that's like- It's a French word, isn't it? Yeah, cloche, I think it's a bell in French, I believe. Yeah, and it looks like a bell. Really, it's a French word is yeah, I think it's better It's a bell in French. I believe yeah, and it looks like a bell Millie's nodding That's great. I got it right The same in French but but but so nearly Matina That means belted the but Tina just means a morning Bell. Oh, I think so morning morning chime So they have different Ding dong, dang. We wouldn't say dang in English on a matapia in different languages

Someone should write a book about that. My wife is German, you know the things that they say that animals say Yes, like you know, they're like the elephant says tattoo In what language? Yeah, you know or even like in what like seriously a dog, you know, like in German Yeah, the way they make like the the chicken is so different. Like, you know, we say like cock-a-doodle-doo. They say they say kick-a-dee-kee. Crazy. French is cock-a-re-co.

Could you imagine? Anyway. Must be confusing for the animals. I'm confused. He probably, he takes the cloche off the salvo. So all that's happening and you know, do like you know upwards of 30 takes because that is like a dance. It's like you know okay something went wrong in that take.

It's like actually you have to lift the cloche with your left hand because otherwise you know your left hand is going to bump here like it's very technical and in a very satisfying way. But it's that's a different kind of very specific assignment than doing a scene where you're just kind of having dialogue and playing off each other. So yeah, there's a lot of muscles and a lot is demanded of you, but it's very satisfying and you're all working together. And then when you get a take where everything comes together after making all those micro adjustments, it's very satisfying. it's kind of athletic in a way Absolutely, and it's a team endeavor and must be do you feel pressure? I just would be shitting my pants part of the expression to be the weak link, you know

Be like I'm the one fucking this one up and everything else has gone right, but you didn't get it quite right But you have a lot of chances. Yeah, but there is that you don't want to be the but there's always that on a movie and you kind of You kind of have to become comfortable and familiar with that feeling as a performer and embrace it and kind of maybe what you'd feel as an athlete or something, you know, like playing basketball. You're like, you know, there's a lot of pressure to hit the shot, but you're like, this is what I'm here for. This is what I've prepared for.

You know, this is my job. Like Scottie Pippen. And you make it sometimes sometimes you don't you get you know a lot of chances Like Scottie Pippen for instance Or Dennis Rodman. Thank you We're developing a lot of themes It's I think it makes for a very rich listening. How are we doing? We are we're not gonna do the Sarah V advert This is throw me one line from various projects. I could do that.

I like that as a format. I loved, um, This is the End. Do I have that right? Yeah. That's right. Do I say it right? Yeah. There are a lot of movies with those words in them. Because actually, around the same time...

The World's End. World's End came out, which was Edgar Wright's movie, also about the end of the world. You played a version of yourself. I think it was one of the funniest movies. This is the end was one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. And I'm almost afraid to watch it again, in case it's not as funny as I remember it. It's not what you think it is. Yeah, I get that.

Did you think it was funny? I never watched it, unfortunately, like with an audience. I think that would have been fun. I don't think I ever got a chance to do that. Mason- Sounds like you didn't think it was that funny. Jonathan- I think it's funny. I think it's very funny. I think it's really funny. Mason- You played a version of yourself. Jonathan- We laughed a lot. I was only there for like two days.

Mason- Help the listeners explain who you were in it. Jonathan- Yeah, I play a sort of, well, yeah, a version of myself that's like a maniac. It's really fun. I mean, you know, they... You snort cocaine and slap Rihanna on the behind. That's true. That's all we've got on that. I thought that was going to lead to a stronger exchange.

Well, can you cut to a clip? I was very excited that they wrote that that way for me. You know, when I was like a small kid but like we talked about being in those acting classes We would eventually put on a show for the parents at the end of the semester You know and you would audition for roles and I wanted always to be the bad guy and I got I got that the villain in one of them bad Bart It's like a made-up play that we you know that the teachers like wrote But I was so happy that I got that part cuz everyone all the kids like audition for all the parts

And that was the one I really wanted that's a really fun thing to get to do to be like Gross and evil and like you know It's it's I find it very satisfying How long we got Millie Have you done any acting, Louis? The answer is yes, I will do it. I will do it. Well, you sort of must feel like you're sort of playing a version of yourself.

What is the role? What is the role? When you're interviewing, say, a prisoner and asking him about being on the top bunk and that being a less desirable position to be in and the guy's like, no, I like it up here and you're like, but everybody says that. The bitches sit. You've seen it. And he asked me if I'm a real N-word.

That's an awkward question for a white person like myself. So I was- You said step up and find out. Or what did you say? I thought that. What I actually thought was I had a half second of panic. You're amazing in that. Your composure is unbelievable.

My performance in the role of living through in a jail. Quite seriously, that takes a lot. I mean, you're like, you're going through a lot of processes in your brain in that moment. You must have thought, I cannot. I mean, I was really thinking when I was watching that, how are they so sure, you and the camera crew, how are you so sure some opportunistic person wouldn't go,

I'm gonna have a pop. Yeah, it was possible. Yeah, when you're the big dog, that's a risk you always run. Yeah. Or were you worried about it? Not especially. At some part of your brain,

or did you just turn that part of your brain off and just go, no. Or you felt pretty assured that situation felt under control. When you were with the guards going into a jail cell. The guards were there. For people at home, I did a program called Miami Mega Jail, and I went into the cell. The odd part is that the guards were nervous, and they're like, I don't want to go in there just by myself.

They wanted two guards. Yeah. Because guards get attacked. Of course. And in fact, the guards are at more risk than a BBC journalist, I would argue. I felt like the guys liked you. I felt like they recognized that you were, you know. The expression is, real, recognize real.

That's what it is. It really feels like that. I was joking, by the way. Real doesn't, well, real does recognize real. They respect you. Do you feel that they respect the way you're putting questions very directly? I think. What happened was, so he asked me, are you a real N-word? I had a moment of panic and

then said, well, how do you answer that? And I said, what do you think? And he said, I think you might be because you came in here. So I was off the hook. It's a great program. Cumberbatch, Cumberbatch, that's what I call him, said that you working with Wes Anderson, it was like God discovering water. Quite flattering. But God doesn't discover water, like he just creates water. Last I checked he made it up, the water thing.

Oh God. God just made it up. He just invented everything, but I think what he meant was... Yeah, I think it was being very kind. There's an element here that's essential to his creative vision that should have been there all along. I think really that I've been being asked this question during this junket. About the Cumberbatch quote?

Yeah, and that I haven't worked with Wes before and that it feels natural or whatever. And I think the honest answer is like, I grew up watching his movies and worshipping him. And all of my friends, all of my peers, we were all like, he was like the guy, Wes. So I mean, he's had a huge influence on my general sense of taste and humor and aspirations as a performer. So I think if I fit in his thing, it's because I've grown up on him. Do you, present company excluded, or are the present product movie excluded?

What do you have a favorite Wes Anderson film? Well, when I was a teenager, I watched Rushmore Anderson film? Well when I was like a teenager I watched Rushmore at the same time. I was watching the office I used to kind of watch things on my laptop watch DVDs till the thing gets real hot and you hear the fan humming You know and I mean when I was in high school I think I stayed up till like two or three in the morning every night watching the office and watching Rushmore and in the morning every night watching The Office and watching Rushmore and Clockwork Orange and like Mr. Show and a few things that were just really,

they were really becoming really indelible, like essential things to me. And that was one of them for sure. Rushmore at that time was huge for me. Was that his first movie? Was that Wes Anderson's first movie? It was his second movie. What was his first one?

His first one was Bottle Rocket. Wow. That's wild. That's his first film. It's very strong out of the gate. Because it's slightly different. You've got Owen Wilson. Who's the other male lead in it? Luke Wilson.

Luke Wilson. Are they brothers? Yes. And Owen Wilson wrote it with Wes. They wrote the first handful of movies together. And Owen Wilson, again, he was sort of, I guess, I don't know if it was his debut, but that energy he brought. That was his first movie.

They were in film school together and Owen Wilson was not a movie star. They're like playing, they're doing a heist or they're going to crack a safe and it's this bizarre, he's come out of prison, there's this caper they plan to rob a bank or something. It's all in that world. It's very childish. Maybe that's my favorite one. That'd be kind of crazy for your favorite one to be his first one, but maybe it's like bands. It is great. The first album is like somehow your favorite.

It's a wonderful movie. There's a lot of Wes's, you know, whole language already so strong in there. And I think the strength of a bottle rocket is how he gets kind of Bill Murray after that, you know, to do Rushmore. I think it was just so evident that this is like a really strong-handed, you know, filmmaker. And Bill Murray's been a kind of muse? Yeah. I mean, I said muse because actually, what's that about? There's a symbiosis there. I think Wes has that with many people though.

He definitely had it seemingly with Owen Wilson. They created some amazing alchemy together. And also Jason Schwartzman, who was a teenager when they made Rushmore. But I think he's a huge part of the voice of Wes in general. I feel like Jason is in there always, even now. I think so.

I know Jason. And when I met him, I was like, oh, it's amazing how much just being around Jason feels like that sensibility that we associate with Wes. A lot of it is just Jason's spirit. And I think that's kind of gone into all of Wes's work. Look, I don't want to take the piss and I don't want to presume on your time too much. No, I'm enjoying talking. So we're going to do say something now that's going to round the interview off beautifully.

I look forward to this. What is it going to be? You know what? My life is open-ended, so how can you sum up my life? How are you finding, you've got a young family, how are you finding work-life balance? Like it can be difficult. Actually, that was something I was hoping we would talk about, but... Here we go.

You should have touched on it half hour ago. Yeah, work-life balance is like a thing that you have to figure out. That's something I'd really like to hear your thoughts on, but that becomes a little project, I think, figuring that balance out. Did you find that? I think it can be healthy. Yeah. That becomes a little project, I think, figuring that balance out. Did you find that? I think it can be healthy. And I think it can be a boundary that is non-negotiable in a weird way.

And it's like, if you're a people pleaser, or if you're in any way unboundaried in the sense of, oh, okay, I'll do that, I'll do that, and you suddenly find yourself overwhelmed, that having the ballast of family can help you police your own perimeters. It just puts the barricades up for you. I don't think that particular problem is something I can relate to. I think I'm pretty good at saying no, actually. Really? Yeah.

Do you have that where you're like, you want to over deliver? Over commit. And then you're like, now I'm spread thin, now I can't give to my family. Come in on the weekend, work late. I feel like that was most of my 20s. Okay. And then you started having kids and then you have kids and you need to be there for them.

You have to, yeah. Actually, no, I can't do that. I actually have someone here who's depending on me. Yeah. It makes things very simple. So in a way, I find it simplifying. But it sounds like that wasn't it for you. What is it for you then?

You just need to make sure your work doesn't take you away too much. Yeah, I just want to be there with them. But I also want to work. I mean, I love working and it's important to me. And when I sit at home for a long time, I become really unbearable because there's something not feeding me. It's like a balance. It's just a nourishment balance. It's hard to achieve like a perfect harmonizing

balance there, but it'll be interesting to figure out how to do it, especially as my kids grow up, you know, and they, yeah, there's more stuff going on. Are you looking forward to directing more? I hope so. I hope to. It's not like it's not a given that you can direct something. It takes a big push. It's like, I'm hoping I'll do it, but I don't take for granted that I will. It's not done yet. It's not a done deal. I'm really hoping to make this movie my

first feature this fall and I'm terrified that I won't because I feel like you get kind of a window with things when everybody's schedules line up and then you just got to get everything together and if it goes past it things kind of die on the vine or at least that's my paranoia about it is my fear is that we'll overshoot and we'll miss it. And then, so I'm like, I'm very charged about making it this fall and not missing the chance. But I'm kind of learning on the job a lot about like financing a movie and putting it together, all the things that need to come together financially. You know, it's like, this would be an independent film.

I'm not, you know, setting it up with a studio. So we have to like raise money. This is what I've been doing for up with a studio. So we have to raise money. This is what I've been doing for the last year, is figuring out how to raise funds. Do you have anyone in, sometimes it's like, if you had a, say a Seth Rogen or an Edgar Wright, or you know what I mean? Yeah.

Who's like, I'm gonna exec this, and do you have a figure, do you have someone like that in your corner? Not on this project. I have producers, a company called 2AM. And they know how to do it. But I haven't had an executive producer kind of throw their weight around person on this.

Opening doors and kind of. Yeah. But I have, on other projects, tried to set it up that way. And it doesn't always work either. A lot of things need to align. You've got to fight this one on your own. You just got to set it up that way and it didn't, you know, it doesn't always work either. You kind of, a lot of things need to align. You kind of fight this one on your own. You just gotta do, and you know, I do think also like, I haven't made a feature film and I'm a bit of a liability,

I think, in that way to the investor, like not in a self diminishing way, just like, you know, there's no, nothing for them to point to that would prove this to be a worthy investment. I mean, it's a lot of money and like it's an investment and it's a gamble other than the script, which I've written, you know, they can read it. But a lot of people don't read the scripts, I find. I think movies are put together, now I'm rambling, but like I think, you know, the big, especially a movie on this

scale is like, it seems to be all about the package you put together with the cast because that's ultimately what will kind of translate to sales. And I find that a lot of financiers and people, they don't even read the script because it doesn't really matter what it is or what movie you're trying to make. I think those days when it was kind of like you could write a script and if it like had merit and if sort of Harvey Weinstein saw that your talent in it, he'd get behind you. That particular Avenue is not really available hmm anyway are we gonna say probably not having Harvey

Weinstein behind you as an asset in this era it's a perfect closing statement I think sums everything up beautifully thank you so much man thank you I really appreciate it. Good luck with your projects. I hope you enjoy the rest of your stay. You around for a little bit? I'm leaving tomorrow. That's crazy. Yeah. In and out. Really quick. I'm excited to go home to my little guys. Yeah. Welcome back. That's my new thing is clapping like a clapperboard. I hope you enjoyed that. Millie said it was quite you heavy. What does that mean? No, I think I talked about myself a lot, maybe too much. And in my notes, I wrote tongue-in-cheek narcissism versus real

narcissism. I think the question is, when do they become the same thing? That's a line I'll be continuing to explore in future conversations. As long as I'm talking about myself, that's the important thing. Bingo card, have you watched my documentaries? Quite a bit, Millie's written. watched my documentaries? Quite a bit, Millie's written. Did I say that a lot? And I last meant Harvey Weinstein reference to make sure listeners stay all the way to the end. Was there? Yeah, there was, wasn't there? And then did I make a joke? And then was it a double entendre to have Harvey Weinstein at your back? I couldn't make up my mind whether or not there was an implied sexual position.

You said behind you. Behind you. Is that an innuendo? Probably, yeah. Might be. I think the phrase basic bitch could go on the bingo card. Plugging my book can go on it. Maybe me using the word legendary. There's going to be too many things on the bingo card if we're not careful. Ethical foie gras. I feel like I'm going down a list now. Ethical foie gras is a thing. Whether the French think it's dégueulasse, I don't know. It is apparently they don't leave the cream in the pen. What they do is put grain out and then they use

the fat cycles. Geese get fat in the winter naturally. So you leave a bit of grain out, they get fat in the winter and then you kill them and you make your foie gras. Or maybe it's called foire royale, replicating the desired texture and flavor without force feeding or gavage to use the French term. Do a photo search on Google of gavage and see what pops up and enjoy your day. I think the other thing worth mentioning and picking up on is how much like McLovin was I? And I think the answer is maybe quite a lot. And I feel good about that because in hindsight, sometimes, especially the adolescent years, you can cast them as years of loneliness, confusion, not fitting in. That's sort of been my narrative. And I prefer to think that I was that overly confident, overly entitled, okay, maybe geek or odd looking chap,

right? Man child. I didn't have braces, but I had glasses and I was awkward. And, you know, it was odd if you, I was a year younger than everyone else in my year at school, because I'd been pushed forward a year. And I was already a late developer. So I had, my voice hadn't broken. I was small, you know, other people in my year were a year or year and a half older with many of them with stubble, some of them starting to go bald. And there was me, hi, talking to the girls. Girls mature earlier in general, so there they are, older, womanly, and I'm there like a little pipsqueak. A piccolo voiced androgyne A piccolo voiced andre gine is the phrase. And nevertheless, if I brimmed with confidence and was au fait with talking to girls and

occasionally getting a piece, if I can use that term, then yeah, maybe that's accurate and maybe that's good. And maybe I'm still playing that role somewhat. I'm still, the McLovin is still in me. And I should remind my wife of that more often. You get me? So this is the last of this run. Hence it being the end of series episode. But we will be back with more episodes coming soon.

We are taping them in secret in our bunker as we speak. I just recorded one. I'm not going to tell you who it was with, but stay tuned because they will be dropping shortly on the streaming service you know as Spotify and also wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I think that might be it, apart from the all important credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Man Al-Yaziri. Welcome back, Man. He'd been away for a bit. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The audio mix was by Tom Guest. The video mix was by Scott Edwards, the

music in the series was by Miguel de Oliveira, the executive producer was Aaron Fellows, this is a MINDHAUS production for Spotify.