The Louis Theroux Podcast - S6 EP1: Steve Coogan on falling out of love with Alan Partridge, playing Jimmy Savile, and sobriety  

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Louis sits down with writer, actor and comedian Steve Coogan in the first episode of the new series. Steve discusses falling in and out of love with Alan Partridge, literally wearing Jimmy Savile’s shoes in ‘The Reckoning’, and being sober after his ‘delayed adolescence’. Warning: 1970s mother-in-law jokes are included.  Warnings: Strong language and adult themes. If you’ve been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com/resources   Links/Attachments:    TV Show: ‘On the Hour’ (1991 – 1992) - BBC Radio 4  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b008pcbq     TV Show: ‘Knowing Me, Knowing You’ (1994 - 1995) - BBC   https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108828/     TV Show: ‘I’m Alan Partridge' (1997 – 2002) - BBC   https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0129690/     TV Show: ‘Alan Partridge’s Mid Morning Matters’ (2010 – 2016)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/episode/episode-1/umc.cmc.6t24k6qmgn78pjfz5iueck40u?showId=umc.cmc.9x6rfy298smgramzarjelucq&action=playSmartEpisode     Philomena (2013)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/philomena/umc.cmc.65o05voqje46icxfetp55hwcb?action=play     TV Show: ‘The Reckoning’ (2023) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0g4swnr/the-reckoning   TV Show: ‘How Are You? It’s Alan (Partridge)’ (upcoming show) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002hcbk     Book: Easily Distracted, Steve Coogan (2015)  https://www.waterstones.com/book/easily-distracted/steve-coogan/9780099585930     TV show: ‘The Thick of It’ (2005 – 2012) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b006qgrd/the-thick-of-it     TV Show: ‘Veep’ (2012 – 2019) - HBO  https://tv.apple.com/gb/episode/fundraiser/umc.cmc.ytcqma5k9ovyykhsnnm9asnk?showId=umc.cmc.5ir3dmyl42miy9h2gxvz551ql&action=playSmartEpisode     TV Show: ‘Blankety Blank’ (1979 – 1990) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0010b7c/blankety-blank   Les Dawson playing piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nNGlaiVypU    TV Show: ‘Spitting Image’ (1984 – 1996)  - ITV  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086807/     TV Show: ‘Blackadder’ (1983 - 1989) - ITV   https://www.itv.com/watch/blackadder/2a7295     TV Show: ‘Not the Nine O’Clock News’ (1979 – 1982) - BBC    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080253/     TV Show: ‘The Trip’ (2010 - 2020) - BBC   https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b04v5fy3/the-trip     TV Show: ‘When Louis met...’ [Jimmy Savile Episode] (2000 – 2002) - BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0g3zjn9/when-louis-met-series-1-jimmy-savile     Louis Theroux: Savile (2016) - BBC  https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07yc9zh     Jimmy Savile & Steve Coogan 1989 clip:   https://www.ladbible.com/entertainment/celebrity/steve-coogan-jimmy-savile-impression-201622-20231021     Book: In Plain Sight: The Life and Lies of Jimmy Savile, Dan Davies (2015) https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/products/in-plain-sight-book-dan-davies-9781782067467     TV Show: Des (2020) - ITV  https://www.itv.com/watch/des/2a7844     TV Show: ‘Appropriate Adult’ (2011) - ITV  https://www.itv.com/watch/appropriate-adult/1a6304     TV Show: ‘Foyle’s War’ (2002 – 2015)  https://www.itv.com/watch/foyles-war/25410     A Beautiful Mind (2002)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/a-beautiful-mind/umc.cmc.2iqk0c0jh9ocfk2jtv2yda0k1?action=play Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Maan al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Elly Young  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Three, two, one. Hello there, welcome back to a brand new series of The Louis Theru podcast. And for our first episode, I'm joined by none other than the talented actor, writer and comedian, Steve Coogan. Steve is perhaps, well not perhaps he definitely is, best known for his iconic character, Alan Partridge, the Norfolk-based disc jockey who's graced our screen since 1991, right up there with David Brent Basil Faulty. He's a legend of television. Off the back of the character's first appearance, as a hapless sports presenter on the BBC Radio 4 programme On the Hour, Alan Partridge became a fan favourite fronting series like Knowing Me, Knowing You, with Alan Partridge.

That's legendary. Based on the Abba song, that's where it comes from, and gave birth to the catchphrase, aha. He would say, knowing me, Alan Partridge, knowing you, random celebrity, aha! Yeah, I didn't do it quite right, but you get the idea.

Later on, there was a sitcom, I'm Alan Partridge, for which the writing team won two BAFTAs, then came a hiatus. We talk about that. He kind of fell out of love with Alan. Alan became an albatross, a monkey. Choose your species.

Nevertheless, they got back together. There was a rapprochement between Steve and Alan with a series of digital shorts in 2010 called Mid-Mourning Matters with Alan Partridge written with a new writing team, Rob and Neil Gibbons. That was funded by Fosters, the Lager Company. Random fact. But outside of Partridge,

Steve is an award-winning actor, writer and producer of films. In 2013, he co-wrote, produced and starred in Philomena. Have you seen that? My friend Dame Judy Dench is in it. It's actually a brilliant film and well worth the watch. We don't talk about it in the chat. Sorry. More recently, he starred as Jimmy Saville in BBC's The Reckoning,

the famous DJ and Sex Offender, who I made two documentaries about. Yes, we do talk about that. This one was recorded in person in this very studio in September this year. We spoke in the run-up to the release of the new series of Alan Partridge, which came out on the 3rd of October, which is excellent. I watched it for this for this.

this interview. A warning, there is a bit of strong language in the episode, as well as adult themes, including drug use. I attempt a Les Dawson impression at one point, so there is some 70s humour, and get your bingo cards at the ready, because some of the old favourites may be coming up. This episode is brought to you by Monzo. Have you ever sent a payment to someone and then realized you sent the wrong amount. Maybe it was a nephew and you thought, hey, they can buy a CD. Yes, I'm still living in the 1990s or some soap from the body shop. They'll need about what, 15 pounds, 20 pounds, and then you accidentally send 200. Look, I'm 55 years old. I'm not that tech savvy. Plus, I have quite big thumbs. So I'm liable to press any button and that can make

havoc happen if I'm banking and I'm trying to send money. It's a nightmare scenario. You get lurch you get in your stomach as well. It's almost like a hot sweat, a sudden dump of hormones knowing that the money's gone and you'll never get it back. Except if you bank with Monzo, in which case you have up to 60 seconds to hit undo. Drama averted. And they'll never even find out that you nearly sent it. This is a UK banking first. Monzo, download your new favourite bank. To apply for a Monzo current account, you must be over 16 and a UK resident. Tees and apply. You don't have to put those on.

I mean, I don't think. I've never put them on. I was just using it as a sort of prop for... People in Radio Land, Steve, was going to put the headphones on. I don't think anyone's ever done that before. I don't know. I mean, I've been around long enough to when they had Bakerlight headphones at BBC. fabric woven cords in the days when you edited shows with a razor blade.

For real. I mean, I remember Armando Enochich editing the first Alan Partridge radio show with a razor blade. I saw my mum do. My mum worked at the World's Service. I saw her do that once. It's been a while since they did that. They were probably doing that at the BBC until a couple of years ago, being late adopters. Yes, indeed. Indeed. Welcome. Thank you. I feel like, you know, the spectra of Alan Partridge always hangs over.

Well, it doesn't hang over you. That sounds loaded and sort of negative. I suppose because he's perhaps your most famous comic creation and because he was a radio host and here I am a radio host interviewing you and I feel like there's layers, there's palimpsests of partridgeness layered through the encounter. But nevertheless, you're here, among other things,

like to talk about the new outing for Alan. How are you? It's Alan, brackets, partridge, close brackets. A mental health journey in six parts for the BBC. It's actually the sort of logic flaw there, to be honest with you, because he probably wouldn't get that series on the BBC if he were a real figure. Well, is it?

That's a good question. Okay, this is great because the metanus of Alan and the fact that all the outings of Alan's that I've seen have been mockumentaries of a sort. They've all existed within found footage. Does that make sense? Yeah, yes. It's never been a sort of, what would you mean?

It's never had a conventional sitcom or drama format where there are, as it were, cameras that represent reality. It's all taking place on a set or on a location. Yeah, well, there have been different incarnations. We did a couple of, like, real sort of things for Sky that were documentaries about the States of the Nations sort of thing. We did a couple of those, and we did some stuff, which is like the sitcoms.

ago, I'm Alan Partridge. And then we did one that's like a sort of radio show with its own webcam type thing before podcasts took off that satirised that. Yeah. You're right. I'm Alan Partridge is in that. It has got that grammar. There is actually, there is no camera in, as it were, in Allen's world.

No, you're right. You're right. On those examples, you always have to choose what you want because if Alan knows there's a camera there, if Alan doesn't think there's a camera there in his fictional world, then he behaves a certain kind of way. And if there is a camera there, he behaves in a certain kind of way. And they both provide dividends

comically, but they're not the same. So sometimes you have to choose the format, the environment. How does he behave differently? He's been more self-conscious. Yeah, he's more self-conscious and you can see him editing his behaviour or

mitigating it some way, whereas, which is funny in and of itself, trying to control the way he comes across is potentially funny and interesting. But equally, when he knows there's no camera there, and you can see him be in all his ugly glory. For example, when people have seen him being sort of hectoring or bullying to Lynn, his assistant,

you can see that unvarnished. And that's also funny. But we always change the format to some extent to try and spin it in some other way. or release our creative juices to give it, to make it interesting and relevant and not tired. How do you, I know this is, I'm going to be super basic. Yeah, yeah.

But for that tiny trunch of people who don't know who Alan Partridge is, how do you describe him? Literally, he's a faded middle-brow television presenter who's trying to stay relevant in a sort of, rapidly changing world. As a concept, he's a character, a funny character that is a great

vehicle to talk about difficult subject matter in a funny way. There's a sense in which he says what we're all thinking. Yes. I mean, definitely that. There's definitely the... Which is an awful thing to admit.

Well, no, I think it is, sort of ostensibly it is because you say, well, I sometimes think things that are at odds with what I know I'm supposed to think. Well, that is the essence of being human, isn't it? That we're full of contradictions. And we know that we ought not to behave in a certain way. And whether it's to do with our attitude to inclusion and diversity that we all know as grown-ups is a good thing. And when sometimes that bumps into us in a way,

that we go, well, that's just ridiculous. we might say privately to our best friend. But at the same time, that's duality. I remember when I first said the word duality. Oh, so you can think two things that are diametrically opposed at the same time. Oh, thank God for that. I feel a bit liberated now.

And that sort of, I think Alan is the embodiment of that Alan Partridge because it enables you to say those things. And, you know, sometimes you can say things that are just ill-informed and ignorant and therefore funny in some way because that are. Or he can say the emperor's not wearing any clothes and the audience secretly go, oh yeah, that's what I thought as well.

And so it's quite useful. It has been mercurial, though, insofar as a creation because you can adapt him to say whatever you want. We have a go at the Guardian as much as we have a go at the Daily Mail, you know. Yeah, and he tends to know where the line is, or rather you know where the line is for Alan. So he's never super racist or super horrific. You know what I mean?

Yeah, no, that's deliberate. So we thought it, early on, I think he was probably sort of a little Englander reactionary, small-minded, xenophobic, a light dusting of racism. But as he's gone on, I think, you know, like many people, you get the feeling, are people trying to adapt or, if you like, get on message with the evolution of popular thinking? if you like culturally or is he doing it because he's had an epiphany but you can't tell have you had an epiphany

or do you're just saying that you know that stuff it's more interesting to us and it's like when people I think a lot of young people like partages because they see their parents' generation trying to be

in sync with modern thinking if you like in fact when I told my 18 year old 19 year old son I was talking to you he was excited which is think is a good sign. And I think Alan's very clippable, so

has a social media presence like those moments. Yeah, there's lots of little, there are bits that are yeah, and definitely I found that, well certainly anecdotally, I'm not in any market research, but you know, I see middle-aged men with their grown-up sons

that they both, it's something they both like. He showed me a clip of, he's like, oh, have you seen this one? It was from this time, and Alan is talking to a woman about how he's learned that if he sees a woman parallel parking he shouldn't

I know this one He says I'm ashamed of I actually do it I'm ashamed of my past behaviour Yes I'm ashamed of the way I used to behave towards women I've done those terrible things I've stood on the pavement and done a slow hand clap while I watch a woman parallel park

and I'm ashamed And then he says Now I'm more likely to give her instructions Now I'm more likely to, you know, give her instructions. And then the woman he's interview says, or say nothing. Yeah, or say nothing. As if that's another option. Now I'm more like to give her instructions.

That's right. I've forgotten that. Yeah, so that's sort of, he's not malicious or malevolent. He's just, you know, misguided. There's something about that I think is sort of important. And also, in actual fact, you know, when he interacts with other people who are more egregious, He's perfectly placed to burst their bubble because of his unwitting nature. So you can have a go at things that you really bother you or bother me, Steve Coogan.

I can sort of throw in there and have Alan sort of put them in his crosshairs. In my crosshairs, but Alan's just in Alan's... Well, because I read your memoir, right? And one of the things you have a little pop-out is Julian Fellows. Oh, yeah. Are you not a fan? For writer and creator of downtown Abbey, I can't. Well, personally, yeah, I mean, look, personally, I mean, the new documentary series, we have a little go.

There's certain little things that are just bug bears of mine. Right, he comes up in a couple of times. Like, Alan gives voice for some of your frustrations. Sometimes it's funny if you keep repeating someone. There's nothing in the middle, which is the end of the last, the previous series. Yes, yeah. Well, my favourite line about that is Alan says, have you seen downtime? It's fantastic.

It's set in a mythical past where posh people are nice to poor people. It's a fascinating idea. Because that's what I think of his stuff. It's like this revisionist bollocks that all the aristocrats were actually at heart really, really decent people. And I don't believe that. And I think it sort of propagates this tired old myth. I can't tell you.

There are more important things to be annoyed about. I'll be honest. Like what? Oh, Gaza. Gaza. Then in your book, there's also a quote where I was like, oh, that's a good quote. where you say Lao Tzu once said Before Enlightenment

Chopwood carry water After Enlightenment Chop would carry water I was like that's deep That's deep You never arrive You're always on the journey And then I was watching

The new series of Alan Partridge He quotes the same quotes Yes he does But that doesn't mean It's very interesting You point that out Because that speaks to A thing of

I mind I dig inside As well as Rob and Neil Gibbons With the writers I dig inside my own head For stuff that's there And regurgitate it And actual fact

just because Alan says something doesn't mean it's wrong it sometimes is it frequently is but it isn't always and also he can say he says things that I think there's a sort of Venn diagram

between me and Alan parties and it's and it moves apart sometimes and sometimes it's quite close and sometimes it's almost a circle well look I've got a couple of quotes on and I know this is we'll move on from Alan in a second but it's striking how

Okay, so you've said, Alan exploits those traits of mind I know might generally be described as failings, a lack of self-consciousness coupled with acute self-consciousness, which speaks for itself. But then you also say, in simplest terms, I've embraced my weaknesses and been liberated by laughing at myself. I flagged up my imperfections and let Alan Partridge absorb some of my foibles. That's basically what we've been talking about. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, yeah, it's sort of, I think there is, if you're creative, it's liberating when you stop trying to control you just channel anything which bothers you you can sort of fold it in to your creative process so make a virtue of anything or irregularities or dysfunction or things you think aren't perfectly healthy or prejudices or innate if you like intuitive prejudices

that you know you have intellectually but you can't stop having intuitively and just you just fold all that into the process. You chuck it all in. It's like you're being this big casserole of Alan Partridge and you can just sort of lob anything in that you think might work and it becomes

something else. So, yeah. Do you have, you know, being such a sort of celebrated figure in comedy, do you have any theories of comedy? Like, do you have a sense of, is it instinctive or have you arrived anywhere in terms of precepts if you were doing a master class? I think I'd be able to do one.

I think it's all about trying to, as it were, understand. It's a combination of music and maths, I think, comedy. There are rhythms to it and things that you know. But sometimes when you become literate to those patterns, you can then subvert them. And sometimes that's the most fun you can have because the audience are also quite literate with that language. And so you can structure something in a way that allows the audience

to think they know they're navigating it and then pull the rug from under them before they think the punchline is coming or by breaking the roof slightly so you just unsettled things so you disorientate them and then somehow they're vulnerable to laughter I mean not that I've distilled it

into some sort of formula but you become aware you become aware of those patterns in retrospect you don't set out going okay where's the manual on top of that when we write together the gibbonside we do I haven't hear things about self-censorship

that bothers me people say are you self-sensorship is a really bad thing no it's not actually As long as you're, you censor yourself in the right way, for the right reasons, we, you know, I think we're, we don't go around policing ourselves with a huge bat on, but we might laugh at something privately. And we might be about to put it into the material and we'll look at each other and think, do you think that's a bit?

And one or the two of others will say, yes, it is a bit. Okay, let's skip that. Let's leave it out. Because we don't want to be encouraged some reductive, prejudiced view of some. group that we feel is you know punch up, don't punch down is the simple way putting it

we don't go through a checklist but we go you just have an instinct about are you being part of the problem by making people laugh about that we don't have a long debate about it we just go no we're better than that dump that even though we've enjoyed laughing at it just in that moment

because we feel like we sort of I mean sometimes doing comedy is kicking people in the bollocks and we like to do it to the right people Yes, the relevant Nietzsche quote is A joke is an epitaph on the death of feeling Which is another way of saying Comedy is tragedy plus time

You know, it's like slapstick is looked at another way Is a kind of injury Like you know what I mean What was the thing that Mel Brooks said Tragedy is when I cut my finger Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die That's right And that sort of also salience.

It's the same idea. You mentioned the Gibbons Brothers. You've been writing with them for about 10, 15 years. Yeah, a bit more than that, but yeah, yeah. And it felt like there was a time when you fell out of love with Alan. Yes. And did they help you fall back in love with him? And what was that all about?

Yes, they did. Yes and yes. Well, Armando, I've worked with... Armando I'm Nucci. Armando I'm a titan of British comedy. Famous for the thick of it. And Veep. Veep, yes.

On the hour. Yeah, I've got to remember, this is not for, you've got, apparently lots of Gen Zs listen to you. I don't, I can't vouch for that. Someone's told me that. But anyway, I'm thinking, well, are you young people? I do try and fill in the blanks for the audience. Okay, well, I'm grateful if you're young and you're listening to me,

I hope you like my comedy. I think you will, enough young people do, that makes me think I can recommend it to you. But, yes, I felt out of love it because I was working with Armando, who was sort of, he along with Patrick Marba, helped me sort of, I was bumbling along doing sort of what I would call lightweight-ish comedy in the early 90s. And then I met Armando Inucci and Patrick Marba and the whole guy

who did a show called The Day on the hour. You've been working, well, should we reference that then quickly? Okay, sure. You'd come up as an impressionist. Yeah, I mean, I was on Sunday night at the London Pleading with Jimmy Tarbuck. For those who don't know, was this. Now you've lost the audience. It's like...

You'll be talking about Bob Monkhouse next, who you also, I think, had a run in with. And you filled Bernard Manning's car with petrol and short-changed him. Yes, I did. I used to live around the corner from Bernard Manning, who I loathed as a sort of a, because I used to think... People say he could deliver a joke, though. Well, he could. There was about three jokes he says, I can't repeat here.

People who've lost Gen Z. Come on, Gen Z. Bernard Manning was a... Am I to say to the Burned Manning joke when we're off air later? Bernard Manning was a northern comedian whose material was questionable even by the standards of the 70s and 80s.

But my hero was Les Dawson, who was somehow... Looks like I'm old dog eating a wasp. Yes, he's... I mean, he did lots of ostensibly sexist jokes, which I thought were funny, but... Where was he from, Les Dawson? He was from Colliehurst, a very run-down area in the north of Manchester.

What did he sound like? Liz Dawson used to speak like that. He'd say, I could tell it was my wife coming up the path because the mice were throwing themselves on the straps. Did you do a lot of mother-in-law jokes? He did. Was that one of his jokes? Yes.

Because you used that one in this time. I did, yeah. So there were six people beating up, the mother of all. My wife said, aren't you going to help? I said, oh, six should be enough. Yeah, which is terrible. And the other one is, my mother-in-law is who work on a whaling ship. She was dive in and strangle them.

Is that a Les Dawson joke? Yeah. So all three of those jokes on this time were Les Dawson jokes. Yes, and what is, there's one more, which is, I might walk out, my wife. I can't believe in doing this. I mean, this is like, this is like, not. Context. Okay.

I'm at my wife on the tunnel of love. She was digging it. So, you know, that kind of stuff was... But that was born out of, actually, poverty. And also it's actually deferential to the power of the mother-in-law. It's not like... She's definitely in charge. Otherwise, those jokes wouldn't be possible.

So the dynamic is actually quite clear. It's not... So I wouldn't say it's straightforwardly misogynistic. I think it's sort of about recognizing her, authority and the fact that he's the put upon. Yeah. And that that sort of humour, that droll humour from misery.

You know, he did one about when he said, the other day I was, it was night time, I was looking up at the stars in the sky, at Orion, in all his majesty, the seven sisters twinkling in the sky, the Gossamer effect of the Milky Way stretched out across the solar system. And I thought to myself,

I must put a roof on this outside laboratory. You presented Blankety Blanker. He did. After Terry Wogan or before? Yes, after Terry Wogan. I mean, he was sort of... And he played the piano.

He played a piano. If anyone would see clips on on YouTube, he's famous for playing the piano in a competent way and then in a sort of hitting the odd wrong note, which for some reason, incredibly funny. So I loved all... I like that kind of...

I think there's something... It's not hateful, that kind of comedy. No. There's a lot of what Bernard Bannin did, although you're right, he could tell a joke, There was an underlying contempt for certain groups of people. One of his ones was, here's my impression of Frank Bruno, and then he'd knock his mic stand over.

It's a prop gag, really. Sort of just about palatable. Yeah, it wasn't as racist as you were expecting, maybe. No, no, no, I was at school getting a bit anxious. You did, and then you can see that early Steve Coogan incarnation on some of the chat shows of the time. You did an Alan Titchmarsh, Pelham. Yeah, I did.

one in about 1990. Yes, I did, and I'd just been out of drama school for not very long, and I was doing impersonations. I got the job on spitting image where I was still at college on the pay phone in the corner of the refectory, which is how long ago it was. In those days, no one had a mobile phone,

the phone rang in the corner of the refactory, someone would pick it up and shout the name of the person on the other end of the phone one to speak to. And, yeah, I got the, that's how I got job on spitting image. John Lloyd, who... Legendary BBC producer.

Behind Blackadder and Not 9 o'clock news. Is he still with us? He is still with us, very much so, yes. I saw him at Rob Bryden's birthday party because those are the circles I mix in now. Yeah, and he gave me my first job, effectively, yeah. Did he?

He picked my tape out of, I sent a cassette in with my funny voices on. Who did you do for the tape? Oh, Ronnie Corbett, Arnold Schwarzenegger. I had this, I happened on this idea that basically, if you put people in, do funny voices and put them in an inexpensive situation, so you do Ronnie Corbett in Vietnam. Stallone is a social worker?

Exactly. Terry Wogan. I would do... Possessed by the devil in the exorcist. Yeah. I did... I did Robert De Niro and Alan Bennett in a film together.

Something you're like, it was like... Are we going to do one of those? I'm a sucker for it. I'd say, um... It was one of those days, you know? I went down the street, ripped the guy's hell. I sit down his goddamn fucking dick.

I'm too big dick. I'm a motherfucker fucking asshole. What about you, Alan? Ellen. Have you had one of those days? Yes, I have. My mother sent me to the corner shop from a packet of lemon puffs. and I came back with happy faces.

I'm laughing at my own old impersonations. But for some reason in comedy circles, I think probably still to this day, impressionism, is viewed with an unfair degree of disdain. I did it early on because I went to drama school and I wanted to do acting, no one gave me a job, and they got a job doing funny voices, and I thought, go with the workers and figure it out later.

You know, just go, push it, whatever the door is open and figure out your career later. So I was doing sort of this comedy, doing stand-up coming, I did the show with Frank Skinner, and he was, I mean, he was brilliant, and he was supporting me, and I was just doing funny voices. He took up to Edinburgh in 1991. Yeah, he got rave reviews, and I got slagged off for being rubbish,

which I sort of was. This was your Dark Night of the Soul. This is part of your, there's two sort of Nadir's. Is that the word? There's two episodes where you feel like you're kind of hit, you hit the buffers, and this was the first one, where you had this flush of success with impressions, and then something...

Very lightweight. I was seen as, I'm thinking, I want to be, I want to be liked by those clever people over there. That was sort of what I was thinking at the time. And I wasn't. I was sort of like... Why weren't they liking you? In the end, they let me, if you like,

some clever people did let me join their gang. And that was Armando, Patrick and... Patrick Marble, Playwright. And, Chris Morris, Peter Bain. And Peter is slightly odd a shirt. Peter no rights for Sasha, Baron Cohen. But he, at that time, they let me join their gang. When I say their gang, I mean,

They were all very well educated, mostly Oxbridge, and they let me join their gang. And I actually, I learnt a lot from Armandun and Patrick at that time. And also to aspire to be better with the tools I had. I mean, you know, it was important that I had clever people saying, you're very talented. Patrick, Marlboro once said to me, you're more talented than me, but I'm cleverer than you are.

So we need to work together. At the time, he was sort of... Did he meet it in a nice? I think it was sort of right on the, on, it was a tight, I mean, I think it was neither bad nor good. It was just the truth. Right. Are you still friendly with Patrick? Yeah, yeah, I am.

You give him a lot of credit in, in, in, in, I'm not working with him for like 25, 30 years. You see him as being kind of, what's the word, catalytic, uh, catalytic converter, yeah. He's a catalytic converter for your supercharged engine. Um, so anyway, the original question was, had, I fell out of love with it with parties, but it was because I did, because, because, Patel Patrick and Armanda went off to get out from just being people who make Alan Partridge funny. So I was left sort of thinking, what do I do now? And I was scrambling around. What was that sidebar about?

I don't know why we're talking about. So basically you were doing the splitting image voices, and then you hit the buffers. You were in 92. You were in Rhodes doing a ghastly gig, looking out at an air conditioning duct. Yeah, you did your research. And you read the Manchester International Guardian,

and said Frank had won the Perry Award. Perry Award, which is the great award of Edinburgh. It's sort of transformative for any young aspiring comedian or comic performer. The Perry Award is like, on the Game of Snakes and Ladders, it's like going up the biggest ladder very quickly. And Frank won it because he was dedicated and driven and did his work. And I was a bit lazy and uninspired. And so the year before, I'd been slagged off and he got rave reviews.

And then the next year he won it. And I was like, and I had this show percolating. and I hated doing impersonations because I always thought they were Mickey Mouse and not serious I'd developed and I was just starting to work on Alan Partridge and I stuck him in a show with some other characters Paul Carf, this other character I used to do years ago

and who's like an unreconstructed of working class, you know, Mancunian who hates students. Yeah, can we say Yob or is that considered it? I think, yes, a Yob, a sort of pub, but occasionally quite truthful in the way that sort of, you know how sometimes a slightly drunk working class person can actually say something profoundly true

about someone else or something in a way that's quite eloquent and... Yeah, well, maybe not unlike Alan Partridge, maybe they see through the bullshit sometimes. Well, I think Alan does it accidentally. I think actually someone like that other character I used to do, would be complete cognition. We'd be completely aware of it.

Alan, it's most enjoyable for me when I say something that I sort of secretly mostly agree with as an observation. but that doesn't mean I wholly agree with it but sometimes you can laugh at this because you think I sort of think that's true but I also don't think it's very healthy to think that you can think those things at the same time

Yeah, that's the duality we're talking about it. Yes. This episode is brought to you by British Airways. You know, travel's always been an important part of my life, both personally and professionally. Growing up, me and my family, we'd travel to America every year. My dad's American and spend time on Cape Cod. We'd fly into Boston. And there was something about getting in touch with my American side.

Although I sort of come across quite British, I'm more American than you might think. And seeing my family being immersed in the... their love and also their oddity because, you know, they would talk like this and they had different breakfast cereal and they'd say, here's some Hershey's kisses and they didn't really sound like that. But that's the best I can do right now. Later on, I lived in New York when I was starting my work as a journalist, working on television and living in Brooklyn, flying back and forth to London. And then more recently, I've been a bit more of a homebody, but still once the year we get away to Greece, we go to Crete as a family, which always feels like a break

from the norm and a way for us as a family to kind of get in touch with each other, to spend time together without the stresses and strains of the school routine or the workday routine. So travel has always been important throughout my life, and how you get there, obviously, makes a big difference. Every one of us is an original and thoughtful touches from British Airways, make every journey an unforgettable one. Everywhere we go makes us everything we are. So what will you be? To plan your next trip, visit Britishairways.com.

Should we talk? Because it's important to reflect on quite what a phenomenon, Alan, was. I mean, when was peak, Alan, would you say? The peak of the cultural phenomenon that felt like. like an albatross and everyone was going, aha, wherever you went. That's 1990, I would say, about around 2000. Because we did one more series in 2000,

2001, around that period. But the 1998, it suddenly was like, I did a big live show in the West End. It was a huge success. And I was like, it won a load of BAFTAs and the show is a sellout. And yeah, after that, I felt like, in a way,

because Armando and Patrick, sorry, Amanda and Peter by this, Peter Bainham, were the sort of men behind partridge and the sort of helped govern it. The sort of the Wizard of Oz, the Man Behind the Curtain, they were the Men Behind the Curtain. I couldn't not be the Wizard of Oz, and they could go off and sort of reinvent themselves,

which they did very successfully. I sort of was not quite sure what to do it, and I sort of hated Alan because of his success, felt the typecast. But it's not just being typecast, it's being also recognised. I mean, I remember interviewing Keith Harris about Orville, and I'd heard somewhere that, you know, Obviously, that was his, he was a ventriloquist and he had a green duck. And it was said that he felt so welded to Orville in the public mind.

And I said to this, he denied it that he would sometimes come home and attack Orville, beat him up physically. Which, again, he denied that. But in a way, like, you were both Orville and Keith in that scenario. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I was. That's like Alan Barcliffe. You want what you just said? I literally could have written up

So you couldn't beat yourself up or maybe you could Yeah So I was doing a live tour After I'd done a few films with Michael Winterbottom and stuff And so arty films that not many people saw But I was very proud of

But nothing that really entered The National Consciousness And then But had you made a decision To walk away from Alan at that point I just needed to do something else For my own For my own sense

Sanity, yes definitely Would it be upsetting for people with aha at that point? Like, were you quite keen? Well, I remember Patrick Marba Sainz in the 90s, that character you did for the first time, for a Radio 4, BBC Radio 4 audience tonight will make you famous.

And people will shout, aha, at you in the street five years from now, two years from now. And I remember thinking, wow, is that really possible? And then when it happens, it's be careful what you wish for. But people still sometimes shout it. But you quite like it now. I'm trying to trauma farm you, Steve.

I'm trying to get to the lowest ebb. I'm trying to get to the pain of when you were walking around and you thought, will you stop fucking saying aha at me? I'm a fucking actor. I was like, I was probably cracking up a bit. It was like I went from ignoring it to walking right up to the person who said it to me and screaming a ha-ha-ha in their face. In a friendly way?

No, in a kind of a way that made them go, that was weird. I wanted to disturb them a bit. Really? Yeah. So I did that, yeah. Stop going to pubs, I'm sure. No, no. Often Dweller just stepped off a tube just before it left. I just put my face against the window and shout out.

Really? Yeah. In a way that was not friendly. In a way that was most definitely not friendly. In a way that they go, I'm not going to, I want them to think, I'm not going to do that again, if I see him again. So, but then. Do you know, have you seen the Liam Gallagher anecdote where he talks about partying with you?

Yeah, yeah. And he says, would you want to do it? Oh, do I want to do it? It's an anecdote. Do you want to do it? I mean, that's also a good part of the scene season. Do you know that story? Yeah, go on, do it.

No, I just got drunk with Liam Gallagher once, crikey, 25 years ago. It was in Ireland. He says that we, but I got drunk with him and he went to a pub. Oh, my God, I can't remember how boring this is. But anyway, I got drunk with Liam Gallagher. We went to a pod, and then we went to this pub. Someone was asking him to sing Wonder War.

He said, fuck off. So you go on stage. I think it might have been pre-Wonder War. But it was a little American tourists in a dungeon, an Irish castle, basically, who didn't even know who Oasis were. And two of us were in the basement. Someone was playing the harp, you know, in Mary O'Hara style. And then they just said, would you get up and see?

He said, no. So I got up and sang. Some Tom Jones. It's not unusual. He was laughing. Because I was singing it in a very deliberately croonery way. I was singing an ironically bad way, because I think I'm quite good at singing. And the American tourists were all sort of smiling and swaying. And he was laughing, and he was being berated by all these American tourists for saying,

please, be quiet, let your friend sing. He's got a great voice. He's got a great voice. And then you continued going, sorry. We weren't very drunk. We went to local poets. and I remember he went We went in the pub

And there was no one in the pub And then 10 minutes later The pub was absolutely rammed Because someone's got on the phone and said You know Get down here The oasis are here And then we ended up drunk

And we woke up in the same We woke up in the same bed I just I'm really wake up a spitty headache And looking next to me I think oh Christ What happened And fortunately I can say that nothing

happened But he says I woke up and shouted Aha I don't remember doing this that but I can't categorically deny it either it makes a good story I feel bad for putting you through that I felt like it was like you had to drag yourself through that yeah was that awful not really not really I'm just glad to be working um yeah so what is it what do you want to talk human humanless enlightened liberals

bring out the fascist in me um that's bit extreme but I think it's broadly true I mean yes I mean, what I mean is, I think there's sort of, there was a time when I would only sort of attack what I would call the small-minded little Englanders of the Daily Mail. But I think now I'm just as, I find, you know, the intellectual soft left, should we say, for what's my better term,

just as annoying. And perhaps more annoying sometimes in their sort of sanctimony. So we try to sort of spread the contempt evenly. Sometimes this stuff, by the way, is channeled into partage. My personal attitude is sometimes funneled through Alan. I don't know social media. What I do is I've got something that's bothering me.

I just chuck it in the Alan bucket. And it comes out down the line as something else. Can I sort of play therapist a bit? Yes, sure. Because having read the book and listened to a lot of interviews and enjoyed your work over many years, what's striking is this sort of disconnect between how talented

you are, how much success you've had and then what comes across is this sort of feel, there's still maybe less now, but a feeling of almost a grudgingness, like a feeling that you haven't others have had it easier or that Yeah, chippy, a bit chippy. Maybe that's what it is.

I might be inventing straw. Right. I mean, Patrick's a lot about floppy-haired people and they arrived and they all called Sebastian and Julian and then there's the floppy head. And the first couple of times you let me go, there's more people with floppy hair.

And he's being attacked by these, it's like confessions of a beautiful mind. He's seeing these floppy-haired people everywhere. I think, look, if you said these are invented, I think they might be. I can't say, no, no, no, this is the way the world is. You know, when I talk about Patrick and I always say that I felt a bit intimidated by their,

if you like, their intellects. collectively, and that I felt like I needed to prove myself, if like. And Patrick, suddenly, Amanda, said, well, we didn't think that. We just thought we were all doing comedies together. I don't know what, so they saw it differently. And it might be that that was just what, something I created in my head. It might be that. I don't deny that.

But in actual fact, creatively, if you do create these straw men that you want to, floppy head. been floppy heads, draw men. Then, creatively, it's actually quite good because it gives you some sort of vigour and some sort of impetus to have comedy with energy as long as it helps me do funny stuff, then it's okay.

But there's probably something... It's quite punishing for you. It is punishing, yes. And actually, because another... You know, you take at one point, I've heard you say that you were... maybe jealous or envious of Rob Bryden for how at ease he was with himself. Yeah, that's true.

Broughton, your co-star in The Trip, a fantastic franchise series. Thank you, yeah. That's very true, Rob, is more at ease himself. Why aren't you at ease with him? I think it might be something to do with my Catholic upbringing that you can't, you're not allowed to really enjoy anything. I never sort of, whenever I've won lots of awards.

I thought that was Protestant, no? It's sort of, it is a bit Calvinistic. Yeah. But there's definitely a, um, I think it's to do with, like, you know, I was always raised. No one likes a clever clogs. Don't get too big for your boots. And be nice to people on the way up.

You might meet them again on the way down. So, you know, I've won lots of, I have won quite a few awards over the last, well, how of 30 years. And I don't think I've ever, apart from the Perrier Award when I was 25 or something. Every single thing since then, I've just thought, okay, well, that means they can't have a go at me for another six months. that's sort of the most joy. It's like, ah, good, I survive another day. And the only pleasure is like,

how can I frustrate the people who'd like to destroy me? That's like, I mean, not, it sounds making it more dramatic than, but there's certainly an element of, ha-ha, they can't get me again. And you're right, it can make you do good work because it's a pressure you create in your head to be good at what you do. But that doesn't, but you're right about the fact, Does it make you happy and serene, no. But then what you have to do is do other things

to try and counter that, like walking in hills in the Lake Districts and things like that, which I do. So you can't live in that bubble. And when we do the trip, in fact, when I did the series of The Trip with Rob Bryden, where we do versions of ourselves, I sort of crank that up.

I crank that malcontentedness up to 11. and Rob cranks his man of the people totally at ease of himself, affable, next-door neighbour for that. And he's camping that up and I come in. But there's some truth in both those things. And sometimes when I think everything's right, I sort of think, how can I cause trouble for myself? How can I sort of, I don't mind if some people don't like me.

I'm really at ease with that. But sometimes if people do like me, I sort of play with sabotaging that by trying to be, I don't know, have a fight. Have a fight with someone. The Guardian comes up a lot as well. Oh, Guardian readers. And then you also talk about reading The Guardian.

Yeah, it's, well, yes. Circular. Yes, it is. And often people very close to me say, shut up about the Guardian. What's wrong with you? I mean, there are people in my life. It matters to me a lot.

It stands for something, though, for you. It sort of does in a sort of a, I think, well, for example, I would say that, a little bit of provocative comment here, that, for example, the rise of reform, that as a phenomenon, I would lay the blame for that squarely at the feet of the neoliberal consensus on the left for failing to address the problem of dispossessed, disenfranchised people,

they're paying the price for that. You liked Corbyn? I liked what the things he said. I'm not sure he was a very good politician, but I liked his values. Having said that, I'm not, I think that part of the problem with both the right and the left is a sort of, is that patriarchal top-down view of,

whether it's on the right to do with personal morality or on the left in terms of how to fix the world. To me, it's more about top and bottom than right and left. It's like empowering people at the bottom. Even there's a sort of Victorian philanthropy to people on the left, which is we're going to help you, you poor wretched people. Just wait over there while we do a bit of administration. We'll get to you in a minute.

Which is why you liked Tis was more than Swap Shop, which I was quite surprised by. You see, that's another di-Cup, because there's a part of me. I only said that to fully embrace the name. niche-ness. Yeah. It will mean a lot to some people. And magpie over Blue Peter, presumably.

Well, part of me does love to me, because part of me like, you know, there is part of me that does like Enid Blyton. But unfortunately, the world isn't red pillar boxes and nice policemen on bicycles. I would that it were. I know we have, look, I want to motor through. We should talk Saville. Okay, sure, yeah. We've crossed paths a couple of times.

Yeah, we have, yeah. One time I remember you were talking about Saville and you did the impression and you were talking about how his vowels he had sort of Yorkshire that was obviously infused with the sort of Leeds Yorkshire accent but that he had quite posh vowels. Clear, resonant toads.

His oes. I can't really do it. Well, I'm always slightly concerned now because obviously I played him in a very dramatic, not funny context which is very important. In The Reckoning for BBC's sort of accountability project, the drama written by Neil Mackay. That's correct, yeah.

You were nominated for an award, I think. Yes. As my mother said, they won't give it you. They're not going to give a BAFTA to a paed afoul. Well. And there's certainly some truth in that. There is some truth in that. Yeah, that was...

But you played him on Spitting Image. Is that correct? It is. That was quite odd because, in that context, that was before it all came out. But there was sort of a feeling about him, which was reflected in the Spitting Image character. That was very cartoon, grotesque.

He would say, jangle, jangle, jewellery, jewellery. Yes. Was that your line? That was my line. Did you come up with that? Yes. Yes. He said, I spoke to him.

Obviously, I made two documentaries. I spent a couple of weeks filming one of them with him. He said he never actually said that. Well, no, of course he didn't. Do you actually say that? I'm so tempted to do it. It's hard to know. I meant to check with Millie before the taping.

Are we allowed to do him or not? I did an audio book where I did a sort of half power sample. The only time, I've noticed it is in an episode of this time, as Alan Portage, I almost accidentally do Jimmy Saville and the joke is the fear in the look of Alan's eyes when he realised

he nearly did Jimmy Saville. Now that I think is legitimate because it's about the fear of... No, you can't trivialise it. Look, you know, when we did it, I made sure... We met the survivors and it was important that they...

that... We did it in a very grown-up way with proper diligent application. And, you know, there was humour on sets certainly but I had to be very careful I couldn't start goofing about in public because it's a very serious subject

but sometimes there was a gallows humour not to do with what he did but it was a you know I'd do it on set because it was so heavy and we're doing it for months and I'd just shaved my head twice a week so I had a bald head before put all these wigs on or something

so I was like it was a very strange intense period and I even this is something I said before I wore his shoes his actual shoes. So I was walking literally in his actual shoes. Why would you do that?

It was just, it was there. And they said, how do you feel about this? I just, I paused about it long. I thought, well, if I'm going to go there, I'm going to go there. And I felt like I should, in for a penny, I dived into it without thinking about it too much. People say you're very brave.

I think, it's just a job. My job is to do this, is to execute this character in as accurate a way as possible to help tell a drama that is truthful and not do a caricature because that ultimately is a disservice to those who survived as abuse. And if you do some sort of pantomime villain

or something like that, that's also not very responsible. So you sort of had to, to some extent, humanise him because bad people are human beings. And that's the, that's the unpalatable truth. And that's what we had to. So we did all that. And I, you know.

And it was done. I should say with unbelievable or rather totally believable verisimilitude like the amount of everything in it I think was sourced in the historical record Neil the writer had obviously gone deep into his research

the recreation of his penthouse in Roundhay in Leeds was perfect they'd obviously studied photos or documentation everything was reproduced it was and that apartment I remember sitting in there

that was actually in North Manchester, not sorry, South Manchester, the Heaton War and near Stockport, that set. Right. And so much something odd at the time was, we had to go and film the BBC scenes

in this courthouse in Bolton, which had around a circular-shaped structure like the old BBC television centre, which was kind of a... It was called the donut, in fact. And I bought an apartment for a while. I had an apartment in the old BBC television centre, which was in that donut, as they call it,

this round structure. I mean I actually since got rid of it But I remember I was doing Acting as Jimmy Saville Walking along a fake BBC corridor That had a curvature to it Then I'd go home to my flat in London And walk along the real BBC corridors

Where he perpetrated some of his crimes When I was just going to the gym And that sort of weird flip Of actually living near where he did those things And then going 250 miles north to simulate that sort of got inside my head a bit. I mean, I do remember at the end of that process

wanting it to finish. It's funny because at all the time it's like, this doesn't bother me, this doesn't bother me, this is fine, I'm just doing a job, I'm just passionate about it. I didn't have my lunch as Jimmy Saville. I'm not a method actor. I just stopped.

Cut, good. I'm not doing until you say action again. And also, you know, I meet these young actresses who I had to, as characters, abuse, I would meet them in the morning and say, let me meet them before you turn me into Jimmy Saville. So I can say, look, I'm Steve, I'm here, we're going to work together today, have this normal conversation, and in two hours you're going to see me and I'm going to look very different, but we know what we're doing. It's a job. And that then,

and there was no self-consciousness when it came to shooting the scenes. But, so we go to extraordinary lengths to make it all very grown up. And the only humor would have been some bleak human with a cameraman in the morning just to relieve the tension, because it's just, it's so intense and I've been doing it for four months and I think towards the end I remember I could wait to the trailer all morning and I sort of felt like

I sort of shocked because I felt like I wanted to burst into tears I felt like really sad very sad and like I had this huge sort of blanket on me this cloak on me and it wasn't help with the fact

that when we went to the Bolton courthouse where we shot it the only way for me to avoid the press was to put a blanket over my head and take me in through the door of the court where they took the accused in up those steps into the courthouse, through the courthouse and along to the set.

So every day I would do this weird ritual of as if almost as Jimmy Sevel I'd been arrested for those crimes when he was alive. That was just to get me to the set without the press seeing me. The BBC, of course, was absolutely paranoid about any, any slip-ups,

any banana skins along the way to this thing. So it was Uber controlled. But I remember being very glad when I took those shoes off. I felt like the unbearable likeness of being, that's what I felt after it stopped. Because I was shocked that it's effect just before the end of those four months, it started to be depressing.

There's video of you with Jimmy Saville on the James Whale show. what vintage would that be? Cricky, that would be 1989. And funny thing that, someone said, did you ever meet Jimmy Salon? I said, no, no, I didn't. And this one said, you did. I went, oh, yeah, I just forgot.

I just forgotten. And you do an impression of him. Of him, to him. To him. Yeah. It was in his short hair phase, which would have been probably... That was during the broad... His Broadmoor period. When he was a governor Broadmoor brought in by Margaret Thatcher

to turn it around and brought in his friend, maybe from Stoke Manor, maybe from Leeds General Infirmary, to run Broadmoor, right? Yes. How deep into the research, did you go, did you feel like you got any insight? You know that whole thing of getting into the mind of the character?

Yeah, I sort of did. Well, you know, I read... Dan Davies' book. In baseball, in plain sight. And I watched your documentary, both of them. And anything else that was out there, frankly. And, of course, I grew up with him, you know, like you did. You probably wrote in, did you?

I think I probably did. I think I did write in about something to do with James Bond. I wanted to somehow rub shoulders with James Bond. James, but it never happened. I studied him physically, and when I do a character I try to become someone else when I was sort of tasked with doing that, I use the physicality to somehow get inside the head. It's like the opposite way of doing method acting.

It's like, if you look in the mirror and you behave and start to physically behave like someone, it starts to give you a key to something inside, counterintuitively. It's the superficial stuff weirdly can connect you with who that person is. And what I realized was that he used his hands like a kind of magician. like he'd sort of talk like this and wave his arms around in the air

so you couldn't see what was going on and wave them around and it's almost your eyes start darting and looking at his hands and it's almost like it's that classic that magician does when he's doing something else with another hand and that sort of occurred to me

that I was watching him this he had some of the something I think I mentioned before that he had some of the qualities of a stage hypnotist which obviously to do with suggestion you're also testing the audience for how suggestible they are and then thereby selecting the more influenceable victims.

Yes, that's very true, a selection process, yeah. I mean, psychologically, he's a fascinating man beyond the repugnance of what he did. He could read body language. He obviously was intelligent. He had a skill set that allowed him to get away with what he got away with. I think that part of the consternation about the whole project,

and I knew that part of that thing is taking a risk and people like, what are you doing that, it'll be a disaster. And I knew that the stakes were high. But that sort of attracts me to a project. It's like at least danger will keep me awake. I don't want to be bored to death. And decisions like that aren't boring. They might be dangerous, but they're not boring.

When I did that, I thought that the consternation, I think, was partly because, you know, David Tennant played Dennis Nielsen. No one battered an eyelid. That's right. Dominic West played Fred West. Yes. I mean, on the sliding scale of horribleness, cannibalism is pretty horrific.

Certainly murdering multiple people. Multiple people. Exactly. So on a sliding scale. And yet, they didn't cause the same consternation. That is because someone who, weidel the way into the public eye, I think the public, who were aware of him,

feel somehow, complicit and therefore don't want to think about it understandably and don't want to reflect on it or see any treatise about what it was because it just it's unpleasant but all things you have to it's that whole thing of you know that you need to go through that discomforts to learn things and he couldn't have done it unless there was people sort of legitimised him and everyone did a bit yeah

how are we doing for time you've got to go up for I think let's see what happens how are you with relationship stuff do you mean like personal relationships I'm in a relationship I've not been hugely successful I mean

What's that all about I don't know I just, I don't know. I mean, I think I'm not, you know, I was married a long time ago. What's that about? I don't know, I have, you know, I have a, I have a very good, you know, I have a stepson and a daughter, and I'm sooned to be a grandfather, and all that stuff gives me great satisfaction.

And, you know, having those relationships in my life are the most important relationships in my life. and I have a family in Manchester who I... Are your mum and dad alive? My mum is alive, my dad died about seven years ago. But it comes across, you love them very much. Large family, five siblings, is it? Four brothers and one sister, yes.

And some foster sisters. And foster sisters, and so it's all sort of stable origins. I think you were quite wild back in the day. Yeah, certainly when, I say in my 20s and 30s, I had what I would call delayed adolescence in that I didn't do any of that rock and roll stuff when I was younger. And I was sort of super straight, a bit square. And so when I had this first flush of success, I then thought, oh, I can do, I can sort of do what I like now. Jumped in with both feet.

Yeah. I'm still waiting for my delayed adolescence. Yeah. Are you sober now? Yes. Is that important to you? It's just easy. easier. I think

when you get a certain age you can't have a really fantastic evening and a fantastic morning and I choose mornings so there's a dividend was cocaine a big one for you it was back in the day absolutely yeah yeah and it's

you know it's the instant gratification and when you when you're sort of self-destructive like that you everything becomes a problem small things become problems because you're not functioning cognitive cognitively

properly you're half functioning and when you swim away from that slowly the sort of cloud lifts and you find that you're it's not worth it

that's what you sort of discover it's not worth it and actually the payoff is so much better because you you discover all these new things like being able to cope with 20 things at the same time and it's fine it's fine and your relationships become more sustainable enjoyable you don't have to the the worst thing about drinking and doing drugs is

you have to lie and when you're liberated from lying it's like a huge weight of your shoulders and you have to relearn sometimes i remember i'd i'd be driving along this is years after being sober I'd see a police car following me and I think shit shit you know have I drunk too much and I realized no you don't drink

oh yeah I've forgotten because that became a sort of so it was sort of intrinsic in me for a while do you put the women in the same in the same category or not I think that was just

that was like sort of first plush of success very awkward originally with women suddenly I was confident and so I had lots of lots of relationships and then sort of went off the deep end

and I didn't have a proper job so I had a lack of accountability but to me now this is sort of like it feels like someone else now does it? Yeah it feels like

oh yeah yeah you were that guy remember because I feel like now I feel like you know I'm getting older I'm nearly 60 you're looking good by the way thank you especially for someone who's been had a few drinks and a little bit of nose candy back in the day yes I mean as how long have you been sober

I don't count the days by the way but just the nights yes about yeah exactly yeah about well I stopped about 11 years years ago but then I sort of fell off again I started drinking and I stopped so I had a period where I started drinking again

but I didn't but it wasn't like I didn't do drugs again but I was drinking again and I wasn't like I didn't go off the deep end but I sort of flirted with it again and then decided to stop but I hadn't got out of control but I just thought it's easy without when you drink if you want to drink sensibly

you always have to think should I have one or two or three or four or should I just have when you don't do it it's easy because you just go well I don't and then you don't worry about driving home or anything that you just say it's it's just more straightforward. It must be part of it you miss. I'm not trying to base.

That sounds awful. Like, come on, have a drink. Come on, Steve. I can show you. No, but that narrative of like, everything's so much better now. But I also feel like, well, is it? I think, yes, it is because your tastes change as you get older.

You've got this to look forward to, Louie. You know, your libido starts to subside, you know, right? I'm looking forward to that. When does that happen? It's not, you still, you know, when you need it to happen, it can happen. It's just that it's less, well, What's that old things about being chained to an idiot? Yeah, that sort of, I'm beyond.

There's a description of what it's like. I don't women, speaking as a man, yeah, sometimes it feels like that. Yeah, is that the other thing of libida being, making rational people make irrational decisions, or rational men, I should say, more often than not. So, yeah, you do, I mean, you're such a taste change. I don't want to go out.

I don't want to go out in the evening. I want to watch, you know, I want to stay at home, eat some food, watch. I tell you what It's funny to say that My current girlfriend Said oh have you ever watched Foils War

And because I took her down to Sussex And she said This is like Foils War around here What were you talking about And she was a big fan of Foils War And I see Michael Kitchen It was a Sunday evening drama They finished doing it like 15 plus years ago

Sunday evening police drama Set during the war About a detective on the South Coast near Eastbourne, which is where it was filmed. Anyway, it's sort of very well done, but very gentle Sunday evening drama where the world is quite nice

and no one is, apart from probably one murder up a week, no one is horrible. And I started enjoying that in a way I never would have done 25 years ago. Now I sort of go, let's have a cozy evening and watch a foils, war because the world is pretty horrible and it's nice to sort of pretend that it's nice as it

well and that's sort of I mean that now you know I would rather watch falls war than I have a line of cocaine and twins war having had a line of cocaine that's interesting I can't say that it might not be better than either by themselves but I'm not prepared to experiment at this stage And scene. Welcome back. That was great, right? What an incredible guest. So interesting, we hit all the notes. Happy, sad, high, low, funny, not very funny. Thinking mainly about the Jimmy Saville stuff. And yes, on your. bingo card you can tick off not just savel but also the relevant nietzsche quote is a new entry on the bingo card is it have we ever had that before that's a new one i think i've said it before

milly's kneeling on the floor of the studio we've got an auto queue and um we're trying it out what do you think do you like it we're thinking of we think it goes more smoothly uh it's hell on Millie's knees. What a shame. Is it okay to like those mother-in-law jokes? I thought Steve made a good case for actually it's punching up because the mother-in-law was a very powerful figure. Afterwards I was like, really? Well, in a sense, it does speak to a feeling of maybe being the northern man being embattled by this ultra-powerful mother-in-law who's capable of throttling a whale with her bare hands. I do confess to finding Les Dawson funny

and also impressions. I think I said that during the chat. They're like magic. To me it's almost a miraculous gift. I'd love to be good at impressions. What's that? I am. Literally no one is saying that I am. I've got a couple.

I've got Uriegallar. But that sounds a bit like my other one, which is Michael Jackson. That was so bad. Uri Geller. I'm not going to bend a... I went back to Uri Gala, pivoted quickly. I'm not going to bend a spoon for you, Louis, okay?

It's something he once said to me. And then said, look over there. And then I looked back at him and he was bending a spoon with his mind or not. The other thing I was thinking about, I made notes on this. So Steve said, I think it was because this struck me as a great quote and instructive about creativity in general. If you're creative, he said, it's liberating when you just channel anything that bothers you. Millie? Need that to go up a little bit? Make a virtue of irregularities or

dysfunctions or things that you think aren't perfectly healthy. Prejudices that you know intellectually you have but can't stop having intuitively. Lop it all in to create a casserole of Alan Partridge. It reminded me of when we had Nick Cave as a guest. I think really what saying is like lean in i hate that phrase but you know embrace those parts of you that seem most awkward most uncomfortable and find some way of expressing them either as a comic character or through my documentaries i i definitely am most curious about those parts of the culture that feel most dubious most questionable because they reflect the dark heart of human kind and the existential human condition

I feel like I'm doing a sermon and that's a nice feeling so I hope you're enjoying it the other thing that came up was Steve's obsession my word with people with floppy hair men posh boys men with floppy hair

who either run the world or inhabit his imagination in a way that feels either intimidating or annoying. I made a reference to, oh, it's like Confessions of a Beautiful Mind. There's no such film. You may have spotted that. There's a film called Confessions of a Dangerous Mind.

It's not the one I meant. There is a film, A Beautiful Mind. That's the one I meant. And it's got Russell Crow playing a mathematician, John Nash, who has mental problems, and hallucinates, not men with floppy hair, but I think like CIA guys or something and they follow him around. And then in the end, they never go away, but he just learns to ignore them. So maybe the lesson is that Steve needs to ignore the possibly not real floppy-haired people.

I think that's it. Apart from the all-important credit, the producer was Millie Chu. She's down there kneeling on the floor, playing with the steady auto-cue. The assistant producer was Mar-Nal-Yazeri. production manager was Francesca Bassett. The audio mix was by Tom Guest. The video mix was by Scott Edwards. God, it feels like we've got more credits than usual.

Exciting. It's like a TV show. A very shit one. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. We've glitched. The audio cues shit. Well, it's gone back to the beginning.

Yeah, I know, but you know the final line. What is it? This has been a Mindhouse production for Spotify? Oh, man.