The Louis Theroux Podcast - S6 EP3: Bob Vylan on his controversial Glastonbury performance

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

Louis is joined by Bobby Vylan, one half of the controversial punk-rap band Bob Vylan. In his first public interview since his contentious performance at Glastonbury - where he led a chant of ‘death to the IDF’ - Bobby discusses why he did it, the subsequent backlash and whether he still stands by the chant.     Warnings: Strong language and adult themes. If you’ve been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com/resources  X Post: Visa Revoke by Deputy Secretary of State  ⁠https://x.com/DeputySecState/status/1939697586920997374?lang=en⁠     Article: Chuck D defending Bob Vylan  ⁠https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/chuck-d-bob-vylan-public-enemy-b2782798.html⁠     Article: Damon Albarn comment  ⁠https://www.thetimes.com/culture/music/article/damon-albarn-interview-africa-express-8rsndnd85⁠     Article: IDF soldiers shooting unarmed Gazans  ⁠https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-27/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-soldiers-ordered-to-shoot-deliberately-at-unarmed-gazans-waiting-for-humanitarian-aid/00000197-ad8e-de01-a39f-ffbe33780000⁠     X Post: Ted Cruz thoughts on the chant  ⁠https://x.com/tedcruz/status/1939080845702083062⁠     Song: ‘Pretty Songs’, Bob Vylan (2022)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/track/4Xjs3lwUmT32IuYi9KoGRw⁠     Song: ‘England’s Ending’, Bob Vylan (2020)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/album/1kGFhr8FoPJ9jqV8AT0RDA⁠     Article: ‘The Zionist Fallacy of Jewish Supremacy’  ⁠https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/9/the-zionist-fallacy-of-jewish-supremacy⁠     Article: GILEE Program sending officers to Israel ⁠https://gilee.gsu.edu/files/2023/09/McDuffie-Progress-Gale-2023.pdf⁠     Song: ‘Drug War’, Bob Vylan (2022)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/track/2kKzKi8dT2NmjVQogIfSwK⁠     Facebook Post: UKIP’s AI image of Bobby  ⁠https://www.facebook.com/TheUKIndependenceParty/posts/bob-vylan-is-going-home/1288462819315084/⁠     Song: ‘Cop Killer’, Body Count (1992)  ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XihXOw634o⁠    Song: ‘Fuck Tha Police’, N.W.A (1988)  ⁠https://open.spotify.com/track/5n8Aro6j1bEGIy7Tpo7FV7?si=e30bfbfb94694acb⁠     IHRA Antisemitism definition:  ⁠https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism⁠     Article: Antisemitism definition controversy  ⁠https://www.newyorker.com/news/persons-of-interest/the-problem-with-defining-antisemitism⁠     CST Antisemitic report 2025:   ⁠https://cst.org.uk/news/blog/2025/08/06/antisemitic-incidents-report-january-june-2025⁠   Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Maan Al-Yasiri  Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Elly Young  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   ⁠www.mindhouse.co.uk⁠     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello there, welcome to another episode of The Louis Theroux Podcast. For this episode, I sat down with Bobby Villain, not his real name, but we'll come to that. He's one half of English punk rap duo Bob Villain. The other half is also called Bobby Villain. Yes, it's confusing. The other Bobby is spelled with an I-E. Anyway, it's not his name either. And neither of them are related to Bob Dylan.

Why would they be? It's a different word. Bob Villain are a London-based punk-rap duo. They use a mixture of punk, hip-hop, grime and hardcore. I would say especially punk. And to the Bob Villain point, I think it's not coincidental. It's sort of referencing Sid Vicious, Johnny Roll.

It's a punk, what's the word, nom de guerre, stage name. Their music centres around social and political issues, criticising inequality, racism, sexism and homophobia. Many of you will be familiar with the band, though, because of their controversial set at this year's Glastonbury Festival where Bobby led the crowd in a chant, decrying, denouncing, deploring, calling for an end to, all of this is relevant to the chat.

to the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force. Some deemed it to be anti-Semitic. Either way, it prompted a media storm, and we go into this in some detail. In the wake of all this, the band have been subject to a criminal investigation. They've had gigs cancelled, visas revoked, and been the subject of a debate for pundits and politicians

across the world, all of which we speak about in the interview. Bobby has not spoken publicly about this before, which makes it all the more charged, suppose there's a chat. There's a lot of speculation about, I suppose, what he meant and what we should, what construction we, the listeners should be putting on it. He reached out to me DMing me on Instagram and said he wanted to speak. So all of that was part of why I decided to have Bobby on. We recorded this conversation on the 1st of October this year in a central London studio. I should add that this was before the Manchester Synagogue at

attacks on the 2nd of October, in which two people were killed and three others injured. More recently, there's been pressure on a venue in Manchester from MPs and some Jewish leaders to cancel Bob Villan's upcoming show in Manchester in November. A warning, this episode contains the strongest of language, including racial language and other adult themes. All of that coming up after this. This episode is brought to you by Monzo. Have you ever sent a payment to someone and then realized you sent the wrong amount? Maybe it was a nephew and you thought, hey, they can buy a CD.

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This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen.

This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. Do you need anything? Would you like a tea or a coffee? No, I'm all right. I've read that you're, I think it was in an interview you talked about how coffee made you nervy or jumpy. Yeah, I can't have coffee because, I mean, I can have it if I wanted to, obviously, but it's more so like I was,

you know, have trouble getting to sleep or whatever. You're quite health conscious. Extremely so, yeah. Your veganism became a matter of the public record on the day after the Glastabry event. Everyone was like, well, he's a militant on stage and now he's eating vegan. ice cream some people were confused by that yeah I suppose it maybe seems a bit weird that

somebody would be on stage saying that and then be vegan maybe I don't know I don't know it's like my veganism is also kind of part of my politics is it yeah in what way yeah in the sense that like you know having compassion for living things you know also being health conscious growing up and working class environment seeing how certain foods and education around healthy eating is kind of not offered to us

it became something that like I became quite aware of and wanted to make sure that I was as healthy as I possibly could be you looked healthy when I saw you on state I was at Glastonbury there's a lot to react to to about the set. Should we start with the elephant? I mean, there's a few different elephants, but there's a lot going on. And also, because around all of this, there's a controversy that

sprang off everything that happened with Glastow, with your comments on stage, a chant, death, death to the IDF. Then that led to this ripple effect. You became an international news story. Should we get into Glastow? It was an amazing atmosphere because kneecap were going to be the story of the festival. There'd been pressure on the organizers to cancel NECAP because of their outspoken political content and there was pressure

maybe even on the BBC to not broadcast NECAP. Obviously for those who don't know kneecaps, a political Irish band and they were dealing with their own legal issues around some of their political output. So you were on before NECAP

so there was this huge, I mean many of them were there to see you, but some of them were there to see kneecap and so there was just this I remember there was a message that went out an hour before saying like no more people can come to west halt stage is too packed right and and you did your show um the free free Palestine chant went up and then you said something along the lines of forgive me if it's not verbatim I've got a new one for you and then it's like okay what's this going to be and it was death death to the IDF and I remember looking around I think like okay that's raised it up a notch for sure

Some people chanted along, some didn't But that then became an international incident With some people saying This is exactly what should be said Amidst a genocide Amidst literally thousands of people Many of them children being killed in Gaza, right? And then other people saying

He's calling for soldiers to be killed It's a conscription army Is he saying that actually Israeli soldiers should be killed Wherever they are? Is he asking for the actual murder of soldiers as they wander around. And that was extrapolated into the idea that it was an anti-Semitic chant.

And the Israeli embassy, I think, made a statement. It became very charged. I don't think I need to tell you that, right? What was the statement that the Israeli government made? Well, I could look out the embassy. I don't know what the government said. The embassy, yeah. The embassy specifically, I could dig it up.

Do you want me to? Yeah, please, because I actually don't know. I actually, there was a lot going on it at the time. here we go Israeli embassy said it was quote deeply disturbed by the inflammatory and hateful rhetoric expressed on stage which quote

advocate for the dismantling of the state of Israel and show the normalization of extremist language and the glorification of violence Kirstama called it appalling hate speech and on and on was that what you expected I had no expectations

I honestly I hadn't heard it hadn't seen it because obviously there was a lot happening at the time do you know what I mean yeah so but walk me through what happened then like you come off stage you come off stage and everyone's like great show fantastic we waited for our buggy to pick us up and take us to the van so we could go home right it was very normal there's golf buggies that ferry that I learned that at that Glasgow for the first time there's golf buggy is that the first festival you've ever been to no no I've been to Glastow three times but I'd never been backstage and been on a buggy.

Right. And been ridden around the little secret. It's like the hacks on a video game. You can hack Glastonbury. So you get on your buggy. This isn't about the buggy. No, it's not about it. But just to kind of show how mundane the whole thing was.

It wasn't like we came off stage and everybody was like, it's just normal. We come off stage. It's normal. Nobody for anything. Nobody. And even staff at the BBC. were like, fantastic, that was fantastic.

That was fantastic. We love that. That's such an NPC maneuver though, isn't it? It's like any band comes off. You got, you smashed it, fantastic. No, but that was like, this was a couple hours later. It took us a little while to get, but like, you know, Dev, nobody at the BBC at that time was there like, oh my gosh, you know.

But it was very normal. And then we got back and then, yeah, like. Like I said, we went and got ice cream. And obviously, you kind of see... Somewhere near Glastow, what, in Yovina? No, it's when we got back to London. Okay, back. Yeah, yeah, when we got back to London.

Yeah. So we're just hanging out. That's a long drive back to London, though. You're not... Now, we blasted through. Is your phone not blowing up at this point? Yeah, to a certain extent. But, again, it's hard to say what's happening because,

oh, you've been at Glastonbury, and what's happening because of the chant itself, you know, specifically. So the child. It's been the subject of endless analysis, right? And interpretation, a BBC executive complaints unit kicked into gear. They published a decision on the 26th of September saying, taken in the round the comments from River to the Sea and fucking Zionists and death to the IDF could be construed as anti-Semitic for perpetuating stereotypes of Jewish influence.

But that basically said death to the IDF wasn't likely to lead to anyone being attacked because it's an institution rather than individuals and not defined by ethnic or religious composition. Thus, it did not meet the threshold for incitement. It's been said there was a Avon-on-Somerset criminal investigation that's still active. Yeah, there's two. There's two criminal investigations that are still active. Then various people made various different kind of comments and put it in different contexts. Chuck D. came to your defense. That's the homie, bro. I speaking to him yesterday. Did you? Yes. from public enemy

that's more my vintage what was he saying to you is he sort of got giving you a little bit of advice or just being a friendly presence in your life friendly presence I'd say yeah and a mutual appreciation is shared

nice yeah which is nice he said when when people say death to a country they're not saying death to a people the legendary rapper explained they're saying death to imperialism death to colonialism

Bob villain ain't got no tanks As far as we know And then On the other side of the fence Oh, who else we got? I mean, we sort of talked about this The UK's chief rabbi Ephraim Mervis called the episode

A National Shame He said toxic Jew hatred Is a threat to our entire society I guess the construction is that Who else did you find? Who was basically critical? I mean, there's quite a few of them. Well, you know this one, because you respond to, Damon Albun from Blur said it was one of the most spectacular misfires I've seen in my life, especially when he started goose stepping in tennis gear.

Yeah. I think he was being hyperbolic. I know Damon a little bit. I'm declaring an interest. I think there's no space to be hyperbolic in that, especially given what we were accused of. Being accused of being anti-Semitic, it was disappointing. because it lacked self-awareness, I think, his response. And I just want to say that, like, categorizing it as a spectacular misfire, right,

implies that somehow the politics of the band or our stance on Palestinian liberation is not thought out. and as a more senior experienced, he's a veteran artist. He's been in this industry for a long time. I think that there were other ways that he could have handled, you know, that question being fielded to him. And I take great issue with the phrase goose stepping being used because it's only used around Nazi Germany. That's it.

And for him to use that language, I think, is disgusting. I think his response was disgusting. Especially when you look at it in comparison to Chuck D's response, who is as equally seasoned in this music industry and is a veteran. And his response was, again, not because it was more favourable to us, but because he understood. But naturally, of course, Chuck D from Public Enemy is going to understand where we are coming from with our politics

more so than, so, Damon Holbin. Do you, just to be really super basic, but the IDF, I think dispassionately, like would be quite relatively easy to defend, I think from that political position right death to the IDF is obviously a step up from that

what does it mean in your view because you're saying the people who take from that oh if you see an IDF soldier kill him there were many commentators who would have put that interpretation on it so I think I'm inviting you

to give your version of what that means and maybe even with a spirit of guy Can you see how some people might have seen it the other way? I mean, my whole issue with this thing is that the chant is so unimportant. It's so unimportant.

And the response to it was so disproportionate. What is important is the conditions that exist to allow that charm. to even take place on that stage. And I mean the conditions that exist in Palestine where the Palestinian people are being killed at an alarming rate, who cares about the chant? You know, like, it's like, what is it

that is allowing for that chant to even exist? That's what the focus should have always been. been on it it's like what is what does it mean what was it what was it me just to the IDF yeah you tell me what you think it means I guess my starting point is and and speaking it's you know because um we've got very different life experiences I'm conscious of all the privilege I've enjoyed um which is my long wind up to saying um i was talking to the team about this like i i don't think there's any chance that starts with death to that i'd be especially comfortable with even like death to capitalism

death to capitalism death to pedophiles death to nazis death to you know someone who opposes the death penalty i suppose death to the death penalty it's kind of paradox but you know what i mean it just is all right let's take that you know what i mean that death to the death What's it mean? So death to, yeah, it means, so I think the construction you'd put on it is that it means an end to, but obviously. An end to the oppression that Palestinian people are facing, an end to the apartheid regime that has been created. An end to that. End, end, the IDF does not rhyme.

Wouldn't have caught on, would it? Do you know what I mean? Because that is what we're up there to do. We are there to entertain. We are there to play music. I am a lyricist, right? Deaf, death, the IDF rhymes. Perfect chant.

The following week, people in the audience started chanting it, and you said, no, no, don't stop that. You're going to get me in trouble. Because at that point, we had the criminal investigation was fresh and I was unsure of what the legal ramifications would be

Is it legally okay now? The investigation's still going on but people chant it at the show let them chant it but at that moment as well I suppose it's important to understand like where we were in terms of the the media right um anything everything it was just like they're waiting there so they want to see like is he going to say it again is he going to think whatever whatever so um

in an attempt to make sure i wasn't shooting myself in the foot when it comes to the criminal investigation because the last thing i want to do is help london met it seemed like the appropriate thing to do you know um the other thing to do um the other thing to to reflect on is it was alleged that after the Glastoset, there was an uptick in anti-Semitic incidents. Did you see that? Yeah, I saw it. The Community Security Trust and anti-Semitism monitoring charity, they noted that 29th of June saw the highest daily total of anti-Semitic incidents in the first half of 2025.

That's a report in The Guardian. What are they counting as anti-Semitic incidents? I don't know. Yeah, because I didn't see. what they were counting as anti-Semitic incidents when I read it in The Guardian either. I wonder how you would find that out because in the reporting,

no one seemed to press on that quite key detail like what are we claiming that is anti-Semitic. But I do think it's fair to say that there's a lot of nervousness in the Jewish community in general. Is that in your head at all? The possibility of like creating

an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community. me creating an unsafe atmosphere well that's what you've been accused of isn't it yeah I don't I don't think I have created an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community if someone if like there were like large numbers of people being like

going out and Bob villain made me do this and maybe I might go oh I've had a negative impact here like again in that whatever that that report

what definition are they going by we don't know that so it's kind of hard to have a just to add anything to that I suppose we're going to find out a little bit of suspense for people to listen to the end let's do justice to the level of the fallout there was an American tour that was planned

and did Trump himself I don't think he publicly weighed in, but Christopher Landau, the Deputy Secretary of State, he weighed in. I suppose the explaining it, we had US visas that allowed us to go and work in America and somebody has tweeted their local senator or something like this saying these guys' visas should be removed. He then has talked to Christopher Landau and Christopher Landau had said, I'm going to sort this out.

I then get an email saying your visa has been revoked. He then tweets out, done. That's how it took place. That's how it took place. You know, you can go and you can look back at the tweets. So when the State Department spokesperson,

Bruce was questioned about it, and the journalist that asked the question. He said, for years and years, decades, in fact, the mantra has been, visa records are confidential. She didn't have an answer as to why, in this specific instance, the visa was removed publicly. So what's your point? My point is that they have done that specifically seeing the media attention and the discourse that it created and have sought to suppress that from happening any further and any other artist doing a similar thing. It's a scare tactic. and also possibly to make us persona non grata

don't stand next to this band it might hurt your chances of getting your visa it might show that you know you're supporting somebody that they deem you know a pariah you got dropped by your agents yeah UTA is it yeah so they were yeah I mean again it should be

want to put anyone in the in in the shit you know uh the call came on the sunday we played on saturday on sunday that's when our agent called and was like look guys i've got to let you go he said that it's come from the most senior members of um the company he's he didn't have any choice it was either we go or he goes and even if he goes we don't get to stay we go to so that was kind of like how that transpired i don't like me and him are still you know he's cool is he still is he still at uta yeah yeah yeah you could argue it became a massive distraction right and maybe was deliberately weaponized as a distraction tactic owen jones said in his commentary a day earlier this is before The Israeli newspaper Horatts revealed that Israeli soldiers and officers had confessed they'd been ordered to shoot at

Unarmed Palestinians as they queued for aid. At the same time, Ted Cruz, the American Senator, is using you and the chant as a stick to beat Anyone who disagrees with Israeli policy with like I mean, that's an American senator with a huge international profile So I guess you it's a distraction, but In that sense, maybe it's a tactical error. Even if you're leaving aside the morality of it or otherwise, you could say you've opened the door to the possibility of people weaponising a chant and just getting obsessed with that instead of focusing on the real issue. But they were doing everything they could to not focus on the real issue anyway.

It's not like they were so focused on the well-being of Palestinian people in the first. place and then oh no here comes Bob villain and distracts us all and now we have to comment on this you know no it wouldn't have changed their outlook but it gave you could argue that it gave them an opportunity to distract millions of people hundreds of thousands of people and say like here this is this is the problem it's not what it's not people being killed civilians being bombed and killed and children being bombed and killed in Gaza the problem is we got a punk rock actor artist saying death of the idea that becomes a um an opportunity to misdirect

well yeah but then even with you saying that like listen to how ridiculous it sounds do you know what I mean it's ridiculous I think it kind of worked for some though didn't it I don't know

because I think shortly after they were done battering us the tide started to change a little bit in what way Well, I think having to have that conversation about the chant, as they were all having amongst themselves, it created this discourse within the media of, is the chant right? Is it okay to say? Is it this? Is it that? And then that gave platform to certain people, maybe like Owen Jones, that would come on and say, well, actually, this is what we should be focusing.

on we need to focus the attention back onto gaza back onto the people of palestine and we need to and he's laying out facts and presenting his argument i think like it allowed for that conversation to have a new life almost because unfortunately people have short attention spans and watching people being killed every day in real time for the last two years so vividly, so prominently, I think a lot of people just got numb to it. They stopped even seeing these individuals as actual people, start seeing them as numbers, but it's disgusting.

Who cares about the child? Why is that the conversation that they're having? But I do think within that conversation, it allowed to bring the issue back to the front page. Do you stand by the chant and would you chant that on stage now? Oh yeah, like what?

If I was to go on Glastonbury again tomorrow, yeah, I would do it again. I'm not regretful of it. I'm not regretful of it. I do it again tomorrow twice on Sundays. I'm not regretful of it at all. Like the subsequent backlash. that I've faced, it's minimal.

It's minimal compared to what people in Palestine are going through. If that can be my contribution, and if I can have my Palestinian friends and people that I meet from Palestine, I've had to flee, that I've lost members in double digits of their family. And they can say, yo, like, you're trying. I love it or it gave me a breath of fresh air or whatever and I don't want to overstate the importance of the chan that's not what I'm trying to do but like if I have their support

and that's the they're the people that I'm doing it for they're the people that I'm being vocal for then what is there to regret or because I've upset some right wing politician some right wing media this feels apropos this is from pretty songs which I saw you perform at Glastow. The lyric is, no liberal lefty cunt is going to tell me punching Nazis ain't in the way. That feels quite apropos to this conversation. Yeah, we should do like a project where you just read out lyrics that way. If you can read out the whole song, it's quite, it's quite enjoyable. Is it? It's kind of my way, but you know,

I know you're like, you're in this sort of grime punk genre, but rappers, especially where, you know, grime and drill artists where they're like, I don't. I'm not telling you about any of that. I'm not talking about that. And then it's all in the lyrics. Like basically full confessions. Yeah, except for they're doing, got... Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Heady one. When I dug into the lyrics, I was like, well, let's see what's in the paper trail. In 2020, on England's ending, you said, this country's in dire need of a fucking spanking, mate. Spanking sounds relatively benign compared with some of the other things. Look it over.

Get the fucking dinosaurs out. Yeah. And kill the fucking queen. They escalated quickly. She killed Diana. We don't love her anyway. I would have thought that would have got some pick-up. Did anyone react badly to that?

No. I mean, I'm sure they would after your podcast. Thanks for dragging that up. You were trying to keep that quiet. No, I'm not trying to keep it quiet. I mean, it's there, isn't it, for everybody to go and listen to. But, you know, but that's the issue that we now face, I suppose, as a band that has been thrust into the limelight or whatever, you know,

because it should be noted that, like, I was very, very happy with where the band was, very happy, you know. Like, if people came up, they were fans of the band. The shows sold great, and people bought the music, and they, you know, like, I was extremely happy with how everything was. And then we were made famous, by the media, tabloids, and the news, you know. And so now, all of a sudden, you have people that do not know anything about the band.

And they will take the tiniest little thing, you know, lyric or, and it's just, and it becomes like a talking point and like a way of, getting their political agenda across you know it's just it's kind of like and obviously that's not something that we have control of but that's where we are as a band

so when when you say those whatever certain lines it's like it's not no of course not trying to keep it secret otherwise I'd have just removed the song from streaming platforms or whatever but it's more so those type of people that are not looking to enjoy the music, they're not looking to learn about the band,

they're looking to just pile on, you know? I don't feel any need in helping them. Do that, you know? This episode is brought to you by British Airways. You know, travel's always been an important part of my life. both personally and professionally growing up me and my family we'd travel to america every year my dad's american and spend time on cape cod we'd fly into boston and there was something about getting in touch with my american side although i sort of come across quite british i'm more

american than you might think and seeing my family being immersed in their love and also their because, you know, they would talk like this and they had different breakfast cereal and they'd say, here's some Hershey's kisses and they didn't really sound like that. But that's the best I can do right now. Later on, I lived in New York when I was starting my work as a journalist, working on television and living in Brooklyn, flying back and forth to London. And then more recently, I've been a bit more of a homebody, but still once a year we get away to Greece. We go to Crete as a family, which always feels like a break from the norm and a way for us as a family to kind of get in touch with each other

to spend time together without the stresses and strains of the school routine or the workday routine. So travel's always been important throughout my life and how you get there obviously makes a big difference. Every one of us is an original and thoughtful touches from British Airways make every journey an unforgettable one. Everywhere we go makes us everything we are.

So what will you be? To plan your next trip, visit Britishairways.com. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Oh well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business

because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial. and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louie, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S.

Can we talk about how you came up a little bit? I know you, did you grow up in Ipswich? Is that right? Yeah. but I also spent plenty of time in London. You haven't done a huge number of interviews. Also, you use Bob Villain. That's like obviously the name of the band, but you go by Bobby Villain as a,

what would be the term, nom de plume. But there is a sort of certain air of mystique or mystery or even secrecy around aspects of you. Do you choose not to make, much of your private life public? Of course. Why? For multiple reasons, the band has always been political, right?

Like before glass and me, whatever, whatever. Like, the band has always been what the band is. And again, kind of like what I mentioned earlier, is that we understand that there are people that do not feel the same way and they feel strongly the opposite way. So, of course, you want to make sure that, you know, your privacy is protected and there is also this entitlement that people may have of like who do you go out with who's your boyfriend who's your girlfriend where do you live how much

money do you make how do you have kids do you have this do you know I mean it's like I have no interest in in in giving them any more information than I have to or I desire about my private life you know mm-hmm um yeah so I I grew up in Ipswich. Did you feel like you were struggling? Because there's references to struggling in the lyrics. Yeah. Was it just you and mum?

I've got other family members. Yeah, I've got siblings. Oh, my God. Other family members. Yeah, I've got siblings. And I do have a dad as well. Shout out to the dad. Shout out to dad because the internet loves to kind of, you know,

where was his dad? I bet his dad's not in a picture. Like, me and my dad are, you know what? Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, sure we lived in like you know I want to go like oh we lived in the council housing but like we lived

in council housing and we didn't have tons of money but we kind of had what we needed we had a roof over our head and we had clothes on our back and we had food and you know but obviously there are reminders um oftentimes coming from my mum network we don't have money You did a master's? Yeah, I did. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah. No, but in all seriousness,

it would have been easy to just be like kind of paint a certain picture. But yes, I did. In what? I did undergrad in music production and technology. And then I did my master's in music. And I have plans to do my PhD as well. Do you? Yes.

You're going to get people worse. He's middle class. He's this and he's that now because I'm. He's educated himself into the middle class. God forbid. But, you know, I mean... It is what it is. But no, I think, but it is interesting because obviously, like, I see those things are, like, on the internet of, like, because I got a double-barreled last name, because I went to university, there was, like, an assumption that, like, I've privately educated, which I don't know where that came from.

But does that bother you? No, I don't think... No, it doesn't bother me. Absolutely not. Is it true? Not the private part, but the idea that you lead a sort of, what would it be,

a kind of middle-class bourgeois lifestyle? Absolutely not, bro. I definitely don't believe that. What would they even mean to you? I suppose it would mean that, like, I have a relative... Shop at waitrose. You probably shop at Whole Foods, though, don't you? Nah, bro.

I'm an Audi guy. Are you? 100%. Audi, Liddle. That's where I'm shopping, man. Waitros. You're mad. Mad. No. I wouldn't. Do you how expensive? It is in there. It's crazy expensive in Waitrose.

I haven't been recently. I've been there maybe once or twice and I'm just like, this is, yeah, this ain't yet. But it doesn't bother me. Do you mind the own brand stuff at Aldi? Like sometimes you're like, oh, that's just as good as, you know, whatever, like Heinz beans or whatever, you know, ketchup. But then I tried to get some of the cereal. You know, they've got this. I think he might need pulling back. You know, they've got a serial thing called Harvest Morn is their cereal brand. Yeah. So, and then you get like, craves or whatever, six pounds. But Harvest Morn chalky pillows, whatever they are, they're like 2 pounds 50.

I mean, that's a three pound saving. That's significant. I don't eat them, sort of. I have wheat of bics. Well, I'm not talking specifically that, but I'm making a general point. I don't know about them. I feel like is he filibuster and me? They've got these clone brands.

It's a slight obsession, sorry. I was going to make a point of how people's assumption of me being whatever middle class because of educated myself or whatever is steeped in racism. But we should probably talk about harvest morn and cereal from Audi and the deals that we can get. Sardonic Dunk noted the, you know, were you? reached out to me on insta didn't you say like you know if you want to do a chat let's hook it up and we did was there something that you wanted to i mean i think we've covered a lot but yeah what was it that you were thinking about would you feel like you haven't had a chance

because pierz morgan must have reached out and said i'd love to get you on the on the show right anybody you can think of everybody everybody everybody and anybody you can think of fox news gb news all of that pierce morgan and why did you not go on any of those well you know why Everybody else knows why. But I suppose, like, you know, those kind of shows are not looking to explore the nuances around anything that has taken place. They're not looking to have any kind of meaningful conversation. Before you know it, you know, they're kind of,

do you condemn this? And oh, but you've said this and da-da-da-da. And you're not really given any kind of chance to speak. But, you know, so I figured I'll come here and listen to you talk about cereal. Oh my God, that's really become a thing But what was it that you were thinking about Or was there anything specific What was the thing that I'm inviting you

I'm giving you a free head I know I know I do think we've I do think we've spoken about a lot of a lot of it I think like I think it is Important to kind of Reiterate that the focus Should have never been on the band And Bob Villain and it should have always been

on the conditions that allow for that chant to exist. But you've got to own part of that, because the world is the way it is, right? The world is the way it is, but yes, of course, the world is the way it is, but the people with the power to change it are not changing it. That's really kind of what I, you know, what I wanted to get across. And also, I suppose, use it as a somewhat cathartic process of just, you know, speaking about it and adding my voice to the fight, I suppose. because, of course, we've been, I mean, we've been attacked like nobody else has.

I think maybe I'm being naive or maybe I'm kind of focusing too much on self there, but, like, I think we've been attacked to a degree that I haven't really seen anybody else attacked for speaking up about this issue. Really kneecap. That's an interesting one. it's an interesting one because as with everything race comes to play a part in that we're an easier villain no pun intended than they are because we are already the enemy so you don't really need to give much context as to why the British public should hate us yeah that's that's tricky but I mean yeah you think they've had an easier right I'm not saying it like that I don't want to say it like that because I'm not to I I'm not trying to compare, oh, the struggles of whatever, outspoken bands, whatnot. But I think, like, it's important to look at that.

I think it's important to look at the way that race plays a part in, even the way this country presents its enemies. Ultimately, the fight is against white supremacy, right? That is what the fight is against. And I think white supremacy is displayed so vividly in the Zionist. They'd say we're not white, we're Jewish, right? Yeah, yeah. People have written about this, you know, people have written about viewing the Zionist movement

and the war crimes being committed by Israel through the lens. of white supremacy. I think his name is Yoav Lipvin. He has written about it. He's a doctor of psychology. He's also a photographer, but he's a writer as well. He's written about it. And I think you can see it quite clearly

when you start to look at the relationship between Israel and the United States, for example, where American police, American law enforcement, have direct relationships with the ID. and are sent there to train. In Georgia, they have something called the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange Program and it has been sending people to Israel to train for the last 31 years. And those tactics are then exported directly to the US soil.

And they are then used, as we know, disproportionately in black and brown communities. In 2015, the Atlanta chief of police has said that the surveillance tactics used in downtown Atlanta were directly inspired by those that he saw in Jerusalem. So I think it's important to not just view what Israel is doing as like they want to call it a war or a conflict. It's a genocide, but it's not an isolated thing. It needs to be looked at and viewed through the wider level. lens of white supremacy and the impact that it has on people of color throughout the world. I think I'd add to that, there's an even more macro lens which you can put on it, which is

that Jewish identity and the Jewish community, as expressed in Israel, has become almost like an acceptable, quote unquote, way of understanding ethno-nationalism. And so it's like they're prototyping an aggressive, militarized form of ethno-nationalism, which is then rolled out whether it's by people like Victor Orban in Hungary or Trump in the US, it's become sort of a certain sense of post-Holocust Jewish exceptionalism or Zionist exceptionalism has become a role model on the national stage for what these white identitarians would like to do in their own countries. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's the, and that's the part. So I think there's

a lot of cynicism about because I think actually a lot of the people who, claiming to actors like friends of the Jewish community, that's the thin end of a wedge that will end up, we'll end up excluding Jewish people and excluding anyone who doesn't match the description of kind of traditional British racial type. Well, I suppose because, you know, we'll see that possibly play out in the United States.

I don't want to say immediately, but, you know, in the possible not-so-distant future. Yes, big time. That is, that, that's, that's, that's the, that's the point I was making, you know, is that like there is, it needs to be viewed for a wider lens, a much wider lens. But I didn't, I noticed on Spotify that you got a date advertised in, in the US coming up. That's like, probably from the tour that, that we aren't able to do. So that's not happening? No, no, no.

Our visas have been taken away, so we can't go over there. But there is an assumption that we are. kind of sat at home in tears about that I should make it clear that we do not enjoy being in that country we never have in the US

oh yeah we never have and I think But there's a lot to enjoy in America Is there tell me? You're putting me on the spot Are there any Aldis over there? I think there might be you know There might be or a little

Oh, it's so much culture. If you're a fan of music, just for starters, like the birthplace of not just hip-hop, but rock and roll and R&B. And it's obviously got vast divisions of wealth, economic disparity, all kinds of horrific things happen there. At the same time,

there's all kinds of amazing culture and positive aspects to it. But you're talking more sort of a bit, it sounds like, tourist-ish attractions which are I mean like fine for a holiday

but working there is very strenuous you know you drive 10 hours and you're kind of still in the same state at some points it's true it's very hard to tour in terms of like

the toll that it takes on your mental the toll that it takes on your body it's extremely expensive to tour there as well. You don't really make a lot of money, especially a band of our size. And I think the politics of that country have just really made it an extremely ugly place to be. I mean, seeing the difference even in such a short period of time of when we were over there in October last year, 24, to being over there again this year in April and May, it just seems to have

gotten even more volatile. When we got the visa taken away, I called Bob and I was like you know they've just sent me an email my visa has been taken away have you got have you got an email yet is like nah I said okay well expect one then there was a slight moment of silence and then a unified sigh of relief and he just said well at least we ain't got to go there anymore and we both laughed and it was like it felt like a weight because we love the artist that we were going to do the support tour with right so we were the we were not the headline we were supporting act we love him he's wicked amazing band grandson is his name but you know like it really is just like you counting down the days

until you have to go and then you get there and you're kind of counting down the days until you can get home other bands may enjoy it they may really enjoy being out there they may want to like kind of crack or break america we never really had that desire we kind of did it because it was something that the management pushed for. Nah, man, yeah, we're right, you know, we're right. I really don't enjoy it being there. Your tattoos on your fist, on your fingers. What does it say?

Lavi Hill. Lavi Hill. Yeah, Lavee Hill. Lavender Hill? Yes, Lavender Hill. SW18? No, the one in Ipswich, not in South West London. Okay.

Yeah. But I've also got it across my chest. Lavender Hill? A mural of it, yeah. And I've got an LH here as well. That stands for Lavender Hill. Because you really like Lavender Hill. It was an important place to me growing up.

Yeah, it was like kind of the base for a lot of things at that time when we're younger, you know. What kind of things? Well, I suppose like, you know, you'd have great times there. You'd have bad times there. But like, you know, people would just hang out there. It was kind of what people call a front line, I suppose, to the area or the estate or whatever, you know. There's lyrics that seem to suggest you might have dealt back in the day. There's lyrics to suggest that.

That's what I just said. Yeah. You just said the same thing I did. There's lyrics to suggest that. Yeah. But, you know. Those cases, statute of limitations, surely. Yeah, no, but I've got a daughter.

Do you know, like, and, yeah, I've got a daughter. So, you know, I'm mindful. But yeah, like if it were to have taken, if those things were to take place, that's where they would take place. I mean, I saw, I had some of the happiest times in my life there, but I also had some terrible times there. I saw a friend of mine get stabbed up the road from there. You know, it's just, but it means a lot to me. Where do you feel at home? Now we're going to get really, because I don't feel at home anywhere, if I'm being completely honest.

I'm not too sure I think it's because I'm always on the move and I've not been able to be comfortable anywhere for a long period of time there's also a strange relationship that I have I suppose with this country as a whole in that like I feel like I'm in it but not of it because it's been so

it's been made so explicitly clear throughout my lifetime. And it continues to be made clear, I think, by some of the rhetoric that's being delivered by some of the politicians on the right, on the supposed left. It doesn't seem as though there's anybody representing me personally. And I know that there are a lot of people within the community that I come from that feel that same way I think seeing large numbers

of pissed up people on a march to unite the kingdom but seemingly leaving so many people out of that unity

it's hard to feel at home in a place like that because it's really hard to feel at home in a place like that. I think, I'm sure your notes will tell you that the first time I was called a nigger I was seven or eight years old. It was by the kid across the road. The last time I was called a nigger was this January by my neighbour at the time. It's hard to feel at home in a place like that. Certain people will never have to understand that. They'll never have to go through that.

But that is something that from seven, from seven to now I've gone through and continue to go through. So that's probably why I don't really feel at home anywhere, you know. But I'm searching. The room was quiet, but it's gotten quieter. Went very quiet. Yeah, no, it's good because it's a serious issue, you know. But I'm searching.

I am searching for that home. I would call myself a pan-Africanist and so I do believe that maybe I might find my home somewhere else outside of the UK many bright wing photos will be happy to hear that

but not immediately at least you know I still got work to do it's not an easy segue Anyway, it's going to come back to ALDI, but maybe not. What do you think about that? What you just said?

Yeah, what do you think about that? It's very, I feel it's disappointing. I don't mean that it's disappointing of you, but it's disappointing that, I suppose, that someone who comes across to me is British. And also, for me, as somebody who lives in London, sees London as the lens for how I experience. because the UK or England

or I feel as though I'd like to believe that it's we are very diverse and that we have everyone and I don't by most I'm not saying like there's whites and then there's the diverse people I mean we're all part of whatever's going on

and what I hear you saying is like you don't feel part of it it's not that I don't feel part of it because of course there are instances there are moments when I feel part of it And I suppose I feel most part of it when I'm abroad, especially in America, right? Because then I become, I'm British, you know, I'm English. Well, that's interesting, yeah.

But when I'm here, I think such a job is done to make me not feel that way. When all of this happened, I mean, UKIP party, which is like, who care, like, they're barely in existence, right? But it was, you know, they used an AI image of me and said, if we're elected, we're going to deport Bob villain. For real? How are you going to deport me? I'm born here. Even in... When was that? A few years ago when you kept, well, Farages out there. No, no, no, recently. It was, it was on their Facebook page. Really? Yes, really. So it's weird. It's a weird existence, man, because there are certain things that, like I am just, I mean, I have a hard time be in other places because I am British. I'm English. But then when you're here,

you're reminded that you are other. And I've been getting reminded of it every single day since Glastonbury. Why is it that any of those right-wing pundits or, I don't know, what would you call the lot on stage at this Unite the Kingdom March? Whatever you would call them. Why is it that it's completely fine for them to critique this country and say,

oh, it's going to hell, it's going to hell, they're letting the boats and they're letting the boat. But when I say something critical of this country, who are you to have a, who are you to say this about our great nation? Why? I was born on the same land that these people were born in. but I say that thing I criticize this country

and I'm told I have no right to the only thing that differs is one maybe our opinion and of course my skin colour

how are we going to glide into something did ice tea reach out Oh, not to my knowledge, no You know about the reference He'd made a song called Cop Killer Yeah, he did In the early 90s was a big deal

Because The police didn't like it, surprisingly It's funny, isn't it, that like Certain things at a time Seems so extreme Or at least the response to them Is so extreme So ICT's cop killer

NWA's fucked the police Like, but now You hear them and you're like, and I think that goes back to kind of what Chuck D. was saying about like, you know, as you said, Bob Villain, but any artist that could be applied to, they don't have no tanks, they ain't got no bombs. You realize that actually these individuals, these artists, they're not doing any real damage for the most part. True, although words can hurt and words, you know, inflammatory rhetoric can, you know, especially if it's online, which it wasn't in your case. Can absolutely contribute to a climate that's extremely volatile and unsafe. Yeah, absolutely. But mine is through art.

And I think, you know, as many artists before, they have just documented the times that we're living in. You know? And Paul Robeson says, you have to pick a side. You either fight for freedom or you fight for slavery. And he goes on to say, I've picked my side, I've made my mind up, there was no other option. And I feel the same way. I've picked my side.

I have to fight for freedom through my music, through my actions, through my activism, through my politics. That is what my fight is for. And, you know, if it means documenting the struggles that I or other people are going through and that is met with sharp criticisms. Well, then so be it. Because I know that my intention is not to create division. My intention is not to put anybody at risk, any individual or any community. My intention is to bring about some sort of positive change.

That's my intention. because our politicians seem so hell-bent on the opposite. I'm doing that with art, man, like, bro, it's an uphill struggle. It's an uphill struggle. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to talk about the same things that ice tea or public enemy or rage against the machine or Nina Simone, or Curtis Mayfield. sang about

You know I wouldn't have to do that But unfortunately Here we are And I've got to do it So I'm doing it Welcome back Did you find that interesting

I hope so few footnotes to the chat. That's what I'm calling it now. Footnotes. Like, you know, like it's a book, like you're reading the podcast. We talked about the reported uptick in anti-Semitic incidents after the Glastonbury set. And Bobby questioned what data was being used to define what was an anti-Semitic incident. It was based on an article in The Guardian that was using information provided by the Community Security Trust. They used the IHRA definition. of anti-Semitism, which is also the one adopted by the UK government and other governments. Nevertheless, it's also come under some criticism.

We will link to an article in the show notes from the New Yorker, all about some of the controversy around the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, and also will link to the definition itself. It's also worth reflecting that the Community Security Trust report refers to 26th incidents of anti-Semitism on the relevant day, 16 of which involved anti-Jewish responses to Jewish organizations condemning

the chant. I'd also recommend, I mean, we also have a chat. You heard the bit where we're discussing whether the right wing of the Israeli political establishment is prototyping a kind of ethno-nationalism.

There's a great book on this by Anthony Lowenstein, I think it's called the Palestine Labor in which he talks about how techniques developed and deployed in the West Bank and in Palestine are then exported and used as instruments of social control around the world. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit Spotify.com slash resources. And I think that's us done for this week, apart from,

the credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Man al-Yazeri. The production was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space as it happens. Neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Oh well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if

your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis, L-O-U-I-S. That's shopify.com slash louis, L-O-U-I-S.