The Louis Theroux Podcast - S6 EP4: Malala Yousafzai discusses misrepresentations of Islam, the Taliban's ‘gender apartheid’, and her views on marriage

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

In this episode, Louis speaks with Nobel laureate and education activist Malala Yousafzai. Joining Louis at Spotify HQ, the pair discuss misrepresentations of Islam, the Taliban’s 'gender apartheid', and her views on the institution of marriage. Plus, Malala shares a traumatic drug experience at university that changed her outlook on life.     Warnings: adult themes and some discussion points which could be upsetting. If you’ve been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com/resources     Links/Attachments:   Book: Finding My Way, Malala Yousafzai (2025)  https://www.waterstones.com/book/finding-my-way/malala-yousafzai/9781399637770     Book: I Am Malala, Malala Yousafzai (2013)  https://www.waterstones.com/book/i-am-malala/malala-yousafzai/christina-lamb/9781399608992     Class Dismissed (2009) - New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/asia/100000001835296/class-dismissed-malala-yousafzais-story.html     Article: Malala’s shooting   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pakistani-teen-girls-activist-malala-yousufzai-shot-on-school-bus-by-taliban-gunman/     Article: Charlie Kirk killed  https://news.sky.com/story/what-we-know-about-how-charlie-kirk-was-killed-13428871     Article: Afghanistan's restrictions on women https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/08/1165622     Article: Southport riots   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c99v90813j5o     Article: Pakistan child marriage laws   https://www.walkfree.org/news/2025/pakistan-takes-step-to-end-child-marriage-as-calls-grow-for-national-reform/     Malala Fund:  https://malala.org/     Mukhtar Mai profile:   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13163169     Survey of worst countries for women:   https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/the-worlds-worst-places-to-be-a-woman/     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Maan al-Yasiri Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Elly Young  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

1-2-1-2. Hello there. Are you there? Is this thing on? Can you hear me? Hello there. Welcome back to the Louis-Theru podcast. Today's guest is Nobel Laureate. That's our first Nobel on the pod. Sifsaai. Malala is an advocate for the education of women and children worldwide, an author, speaker and teacher. I'm sure you've heard of Malala. She's also the founder of the Malala Fund, which has helped build schools and provide education across Africa, Asia and the Middle East. Malala has been campaigning for access to education since she was 11 years old, growing up in the northern area of Pakistan. Four years later, when she was 15, Malala and two of

her friends were shot and injured by Taliban gunmen in an assassination attempt, authorised by Mullah Fazlula. We talked more about him in the chat. She was flown to Birmingham for surgery, where she then settled with her family, making a life in the UK. We recorded this conversation in September this year. She dropped by Spotify HQ in the middle of a busy press tour to promote her new book, Finding My Way, which came out last week. It's the follow-up to her 2013 international bestseller, I Am Malala. And in fact, we talk about both books. The new one, talking about That's her dealing with being at Oxford and the challenges of trying to be an international advocate for education, but also be a normal teenage girl student, someone making their way, trying to do well in their studies.

But also we talk about the old one, I Amalala, which is more historical, more about the sociology, the life and history of Pakistan, the Taliban, how they came up, all of which I found very interesting. as you can imagine this conversation contains adult themes and some discussion points which could be upsetting all that and much else besides is coming up this episode is brought to you by shopify when i was younger i always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete i was a fast runner i thought maybe i could make it to the olympics or be blasted off into space as it happens. Neither of those dreams came true.

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Welcome. Thanks for doing this. Oh, thank you. And I see you wear a whoop as well. Do you wear a whoop? I took it off because I thought it may not look good if I'm wearing too many watches. I wear Apple and whoops. But then you're losing critical hours of data. I know. I'm so worried. I don't want to lose my streak. This is, I don't take mine off very often. I've become quite wedded to it.

I'm not sponsored by whoop, but it has become a mini, obsession, which brings us to sort of your sporting activities and it's a nice segue because you did a bit of rowing. Well, look, let me rewind. You've got a book out. We're going to talk about that. It's kind of a follow-up to a previous book. And it sort of follows, among other things, your journey sort of having arrived in the UK, you graduate from high school in Birmingham, you've moved here with your family, and then you're at Oxford. And you're sort of balancing these two roles. One is being an international advocate for education of women. But on the other hand, you're trying to be a normal student, right, at Oxford.

The paradox of being an advocate for education and falling down on your studies. You weren't doing very well for some of it. No, sadly not. But I have to be honest about that part of my journey. So you talk about that and they pull you up on it. But the thing, we started with a whoop. I haven't lost my thread. One of the things that happens is you're rowing.

Remind me what happens. And then you wear some jeans and then it kind of goes viral. Yes. So it was a photo of me wearing jeans and a bomber jacket and a headscarf that somebody took and it went viral in Pakistan. And I had the best day at Oxford that day because I was trying something new. I was rowing. I was signing up for all of these different clubs and sports activities because I had just come from a school where I had only one best friend and I had little exposure. So Oxford was the first time that I felt nobody was watching me. I was away from parents. And I could really try things that I always dreamed of. So, you know, I just did not expect that I would open my phone and start seeing these trolls and this backlash. And what were they saying? They were criticizing the fact that I was wearing jeans and it was not Islamic or cultural enough. Is there anything in that? Is there anything in the Quran about genes? No, nothing, nothing. I think Islam is so much about

respecting people's cultures and Islam is never about promoting a dress code or it's about your faith, it's about what you believe, it's never about what kind of jewelry you wear and how you dress and there is a code for it but it does not say

you can't wear jeans or you can't wear a bomber jacket. What is the code? What is the actual Islamic code according to the Quran? So I think in Quran it's about modesty. It's about and I also do not consider myself an expert but if you look at Islam holistically, it has always been against oppression. There's one line in Koran that says there's no compulsion in religion.

You cannot force it upon anybody. It's about every individual's free will and them coming to a decision about how they want to live their life. And Islam is encouraging us to seek knowledge and thrive and create better communities, bring peace. So it's shocking. But to be honest, like... What's shocking, the level of, I mean, we were talking about the backlash, right, when you wore the jeans, and you were talking about trolls, and what were they saying? So most of the trolls were saying that my genes were against Islam and they were against our culture as well. So culture is something different from the Islam.

So culture in Malaysia is very different than the culture in Morocco to the culture in Pakistan or India. But all of these countries have Islam. and in our culture, you know, we wear Shalwar Kamis, but people in Malaysia or Indonesia or Morocco don't wear Shalwar Kamis. The dress code, it's all modest, but it's different. It looks different. So for some people, it was just the fact that I was not representing my culture either. But I wanted to be a normal student at Oxford.

I did not want to stand out. And as you can see, my clothes usually are very flashy and bright, and I 100% would stand out in that. So I just wanted to wear. I mean, for people in Radio Land, we should say, is it a Shalwa Kamis? It is a Shalwar Kamis. And a headscarf. Yes.

Is it a kind of traditional Pakistani clothing? Yes, it is a traditional Pakistani clothing. But that has also evolved with time. I think it's changing. It's all part of fashion. People keep changing it as well. But I guess the point behind the question and so the general point is, I hadn't really thought much about how you were viewed in Pakistan. and also the fact that your family are over here,

it was a surprise to me reading the book that you had round-the-clock security at Oxford, like 24 hours a day? Yeah. So basically you're in your dorm. Which college were you at again? LMAH, Lady Margaret Hall. And then the next room along was a full-time security officer. Yes.

Paid for by the UK government? Yes, it's part of the Met Police. And obviously that's quite weird. If you went to a party, they'd be there as well. In the corner, they were non-uniform, so they wanted not to stand out. They wanted to make me feel as comfortable as I could. I think some students did spot them that, you know, who are these men? They'd be a little older?

Or were they generally in their 20s? No, not at all. They were all like 50 plus. Really? Well, they stand out a bit at an Oxford party. I would have thought student party. I think they also had to readjust to the schedule like later. nights and late mornings, random last-minute plans, last-minute cancellations.

I received the security around the Nobel Peace Prize. And you've got security here today, I should say. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It was really at a time when I suddenly was getting more and more exposure, the Nobel Peace Prize. And at the same time, the threats from the Taliban continued. They were issuing statements in Pakistan.

And the UK was looking into that. From where in Pakistan? Because they're not in power there, are they? No, but, you know, the so-called representative or spokesperson of the country. Who is that? Is that someone who's living in the hills outside Peshawar in the north? Or is there like, do they operate openly in mosques in Islamabad? No, not really.

Sometimes they are hiding somewhere in the mountains or in parts of Afghanistan. And one of them was arrested, but somehow he escaped. The leader of the Taliban in Pakistan was arrested? Yeah, he was, then he escaped. And then obviously the Taliban are in power in Afghanistan as well. And the gunmen who had attacked me, you know, I found out that they had completed their 10 years in prison and they have also been released. Have they? Yeah.

And then they had to pay like a small amount of fine in the end. But they're out now. Yeah. And we actually donated that money to a school in Swat Valley. It's really hard to process. I don't try to think about it too much. For me, it was always about forgiveness. But I will be honest, like, of course I can forgive them on my part,

but I can't forgive them on my two friends' behalf who were also attacked. They also took a bullet. I can't forgive them for the other attacks that they committed. So I was just only a small part of the crimes that they had committed. That's how I found out, you know, that, you know, why they were, put in prison and like sort of what was happening, but still just to see that they, in the end, like, you know, 10 years at the time felt like a long time, but, you know, me and my

friends, we are still around 27, 28 and to just imagine for a second that they're there roaming around for free. They're out now. They're out now, yeah. These are the two guys that were actually on the bus? That's what we were told, yes. Yes. I don't remember anything.

Do we want living open lives somewhere in Pakistan? I have no idea. I have no idea. I do not remember. them, I would not recognize them. Two of my friends sort of, like, they sort of thought like these were the guys, but

they were also in a trauma. They could not It was on a bus, on a minibus, right? Yeah, so Shazia and Kaina, two of my other school friends. So there would have been 20 or 30 witnesses, I would have thought? Yes, I think... Or not so many? It was the trauma. A lot of the girls were so shocked that they sort of knew that these

were the guys, but they also were just scared, so scared. I think you do not want to remember the faces. who took out a gun and tried to kill you. And they weren't lone wolves. They were operating on the orders, so it said of someone called Malana Fazlula, who I'm dialing back to your other book now,

the previous book, I Am Malala, where there's this extraordinary chapter called Mullah FM or Radio Mullah. Yes. In fact, there's a whole little section where you describe your home of the Swat Valley in the north of Pakistan and the arrival of the Taliban and how I guess they'd been sort of displaced from Afghanistan on the run from American and British military activity there

and then there's just a sense of a community being taken over almost by stealth. Can you talk about that a little bit? I just found it extraordinary. Yeah. So there's two things to this question. One is the reality that we were living under this extremist armed group

that suddenly appeared out of nowhere. They had some local people, but a lot of them were just strangers. We had no idea who they were because they would cover their faces and they would have big clash and coves and guns. They were controlling the whole area. They had radio station in their control.

And every day... They spoke with local accents. Yes, yes. They spoke in the local language. And in fact, Faslula had been the operator of a kind of little mini cable car. Yeah, across the river. Across the Swat River,

which is a common way of traveling across ravines and rivers, right? You sort of hoisted on a cable. Yes. And they had control for about two years. And with every day, with every passing day, they would announce these new restrictions on women that they cannot go to a market. Women could not go outside their homes.

They were stopped from work. And then they also said, you know, they were discouraging education. They were discouraging everything about girls' learning. And then eventually they announced a ban that no girl can go to school. I was 11 years old at the time. But they weren't in government.

That was, right? No. They were, to begin with, it was just this weird, like, community of people who had influence, but were operating outside of the government. But they were using force, right? Threatening people, like, it's fear. They create a sense of fear. They are attacking schools.

They bombed more than 400 schools out of the 1,200 schools in the whole valley. 70% of them were girls schools. They were flogging people. Yes. They had more control in some parts. So they had really create a sense of fear that nobody could dare to say something. Right. And I think it's important to acknowledge that.

But I guess what I'm curious about is the way in which he operated a kind of seduction to begin with. And in fact, again, you talk in your book about how people would listen to his radio station. And he particularly appealed to women. And they'd sent him bangles and jewelry because they liked his voice. They liked his message. And the fact that even your mother to begin with seemed to quite like parts of women. what he was saying. Yes, because initially it was just simply a message about promoting Islam and Islamic values, but that changed to tell women that they cannot see a doctor,

they cannot go to a market. Like my mum was then absolutely against them. She hated them. Later on, when it became clear what they were pushing. Can I ask something really literal, which is, how is he able, he started flogging people on a stage next to his center. This is Fuzzulula, right? Yeah. So from being a radio guy, to then an influential kind of cultural and religious teacher to then having a centre and then there's a stage and he starts flogging people. He still doesn't have actual civil authority.

Why are the local governments not then coming in and saying actually you can't do this? Because the Taliban were also putting, they were sending suicide bombers to the police stations. They were attacking the local commissioners and the local security officials so many of the people were assassinated, killed, and attacked by those bombs. So it was a very intense environment.

And to be honest, like, you know, that is something that, you know, we lived under for two years. And I, today, when I look at my life and I just watch a city like London, I am in any other part of the world. And I see peace, I'm so grateful for it because I never take it for granted. I never take quite nights for granted. I remember the bombings, the firing, the loud noise of the attacks. And, of course, then a military operation began in Swat Valley. The army entered. And I think that's sort of like the military.

Well, later on the military come and they basically drive the Taliban away. But before we get to that, you also talk about, you mentioned lawyers and academics went quiet. This is the sense where all the people who could have spoken up, there's this sort of acquiescence. You talk about how your dad is there. He's trying to lead some kind of level of tacit resistance, but it's so high risk. You had a school, right? So he was an advocate for education. There's a New York Times documentary early on from around 2009, where they come and follow you and your father.

Yes. And it's fascinating to watch because clearly you had no idea what would happen. and in fact there's foreshadowing in the documentary but the foreshadowing is of the idea that your father might be killed the death threat is issued against him and he begins sleeping away from the house yeah another friend's house yeah

right it's heartbreaking he says the quote is he couldn't bear the thought of being killed in front of us yeah it was the most difficult time because in January 2009, the Taliban announced that girls will not be allowed to be in school anymore. So I was living that moment of a ban on girls' education.

I could see my brothers put on their uniform every morning and go to school while I could not. It was also when they were killing two or three people every morning and showing their bodies on display so they could scare people. And it was also a time when my dad also received threats. so he was sleeping at another friend's house because he was worried if they could break into our house they would find him and you know as a child

I just wanted to find every possible way of protecting my family and I would just imagine how I could like protect my father all of these everything that I share in I Am Malala book was part of my story when I was 11 years old and at the time I did not even know myself So I wrote that book after the attack

When the Taliban attempted to kill me To silence me forever And that's how I introduce myself to the world You know, I'm Malala and here's my story And here's everything about the politics of Pakistan and Swat Valley And these are, you know, who the Taliban are And this is how they were created And I went into the whole politics and history and everything

And I talked about my dad And how our lives were affected by the Taliban's severe restrictions and violence and how we became displaced and how I became an act of all of that was part of my life but that point onwards I believe that there has been so much more to my life that I wanted to share and that's why I decided you know after 10 to 12 years that I want to write a new book to tell my story and to reintroduce myself I can like talk about what happened in Swat Valley for for a long time and I think we can do like a whole segment on that but this is what I wanted to change through this new book finding my way because you know we have

to acknowledge that I you know at 28 I'm very different than the person I was at 20 at 15 or you know at 11 years old so these are all these stories are all a part of me some of these I have deliberately decided to forget to leave behind because because you want to see yourself more than that. You want to see yourself more than this activist figure, more than this person who has to have a political opinion about everything. And I'm sharing all of that about me in this book because I want to talk about how I just simply wanted to have more friends.

I did not want to be a lonely student. I wanted to see what it feels like, to be loved and to fall in love. and I just thought I was like the strongest person in the world and somehow I felt weak when I had mental health issues and I was going through panic attacks. So this book is really important and to me because it is the truest self reflections that I have ever given and this is like I feel like this is like the truest part of me

to redefine myself beyond Ahim Malala. Oh, I agree with that. And I think because there are aspects of your journey that I didn't know about, I was really curious how it all started. And parenthetically, I also feel like as a sort of student of human nature and radicalisation generally, because I think we're living in a time where we're in danger of slipping into authoritarianism, you know, in the West. You know, we've had upheaval here.

We've had riots. We've had anti-immigrant activity. I think to see how it takes place struck me as fascinating. And the way in which people get silenced or acquiesce or people who you thought were reasonable begin to show their true colours. And liberal values get eroded to the point where suddenly you're not in a country you recognize anymore.

You know, you mentioned at this point about, like, what is happening in the world right now, and there's just a lot more extremism, and people are somehow celebrating violence. And that shrugs me. Two days ago, we should reflect Charlie Cook was killed in plain sight in Utah. Yes. Whatever you think of his politics, political assassination is obviously horrific.

Exactly. I think, you know, you don't have to agree with what a person says, but it's, you know, we are losing our sense of humanity when we are celebrating the other person's killing. We cannot be picking violence. We cannot be punishing innocent people. Like when I look at what's happening in Gaza, when I look at how the Taliban are punishing women and girls in Afghanistan. And it's just, you know, when you look at these wars and so-called like conflicts that are happening in the world from Sudan to like Congo to all of these parts of the world.

And the people who pray the highest price are the innocent people who have nothing to do with how it started and whites happening. they pay the highest price and I think we have to stand against it I believe that we have the capacity to hold empathy for everybody we have the capacity to have these human values and principles

which we all can agree on that is for the benefit of all of us we can disagree on other small things but these are some principles that we can all hold and that should include not celebrating violence against somebody else. It should be part of our morality. It should be part of our legal systems as well.

I think this is a moment of awakening for all of us as one human civilization. We started by talking about how you were trolled over wearing jeans. I think part of you would love to live back in the Swat Valley or in Pakistan, right? Yeah. That's like the life I was living. Yeah. And so just to be really basic about it,

what is preventing you from doing that? Would you and your family be safe in Pakistan now? I think we are safe. We are safe in the cities. We have been to Pakistan quite a few times. It's slightly more difficult to go to the border side. And our areas like Swat and Shangla are closer to the border with Afghanistan. And these extremist groups are re-emerging.

Like the Pakistani Taliban are re-emerging. There are some military operations also going on. So it's really hard to get the permission and to go there. You know, and that is my home. That's where I want to spend more time. But in the rest of the country in Pakistan, yes, like, you know, we can go there any time. In Mingora and in the Swat Valley, are secondary schools open to girls? Right now they are open in both those places.

But there are other parts which are like literally on the border with Afghanistan. We are hearing these reports and seeing stories of how girls schools are either being attacked or girls are still being threatened. It's happening in limited areas, but it's still, you know, like scary to imagine that it could happen again and other girls could be reliving that. And it's happening in the whole country of Afghanistan. The Taliban, for the past four years, when they gained control, have restricted and limited women and girls from having any right. They cannot go to a market. They cannot see a doctor.

They cannot be in school. They cannot go to work. They cannot be in the parliament. That's where women were. And they suddenly took all of that away from them. them. The human rights experts call it a gender apartheid, that women are systematically erased simply based on their gender. And I have worked with many Afghan women activists and girls, and I talked to four girls who we are supporting through our project a few days ago. They are

all part of these projects, which are running secret schools like underground schools for girls. And education is the only hope for these girls right now, even if they learn in these restricted environments because the Taliban don't allow girls to be in school beyond grade six. They do not allow them to be in universities. And is it true that women aren't allowed to speak in public in Afghanistan? Yes, and they have also said that they should lower their voices even when they're in their house because their voices should not be heard outside their houses and that they should not even be seen from their windows when they're in the house.

So they're not only limiting them from how women are outdoors, but they're not. They're also saying, we are going to control you and your movement and your voice and how you dress within your houses as well. And, you know, like in any country, if a woman faces violence, she should have a place where she can seek refuge and safety. The government should be providing security. Like that's, you know, the basic sort of concept. The state is supposed to be protecting you.

But in Afghanistan, like the Taliban, the government are the ones who are taking away women's rights. And we have to be, we have to note this down because it's not culture, simply. It's not just like norms and traditions. This has now taken the form of systematic oppression, which means like the people who are supposed to protect you are the ones who are harming you. They're treating women as second-class citizens. And that is why it is a gender apartheid. So we have to see it beyond just gender discrimination or, you know, like, or just like a sad story of a woman facing an issue in a community.

No, this has gone beyond that. And it's important not just for women and girls in Afghanistan, but it's important for women everywhere. You know, every regime has a constituency, right? And there were enthusiastic Nazis, right, in the time of Hitler. And there were enthusiastic Stalinists in the time of Stalin. There's obviously a kind of grassroots contingent who support the Taliban. Because there's these mobs sometimes.

You talk about the mob lynching of Mashal Khan, a 23-year-old student accused of posting blasphemous content on Facebook. And you spoke out and said, the incident was not just about the death of Mashal, it's about the death and all of the message of Islam. We have forgotten our religion. We've forgotten our values and decency. How is it that these people have been either brainwashed

or seduced into this kind of thinking? I have always said that it's not about one or two individuals when it comes to extremism. And we cannot get rid of extremism by attacking, you know, one or two people. It is about an ideology. It is indoctrination. It is. They think they're Muslims, right?

They claim to be operating in the name of Muslims. Islam has many things. Like, you cannot lie, you cannot cheat. You have to be fair. You have to, like, not cause harm. But people are disobeying all of that. Like, you know, if they were truly representing Islam, you know, these stories would not have been happening.

This is not part of Islam. And, you know, you would never hear about corruption. You would never hear about dishonesty. So it's ignorance in your opinion. It is. It is ignorance. I think it is also other interests as well. Sometimes people have other interests and they justified through that.

It could be some cultural reasoning for that. Also, if we'll even look at the Taliban, like, you know, they just did not appear out of nowhere. There's a whole history to that. They have been there for like nearly three decades. The Western powers were involved. It was, you know, it started during the end of the Cold War and they were one celebrated and they were like, you know, they came out of from the Mujahideen concept. And, you know, like, nobody in Pakistan and Afghanistan was thinking about, like, being a Mujahideen and all of that.

It's just, you know, we have to think about the role of the external powers, the Western powers, what are the geopolitical interests. And I think that's a whole different, like, political discussion. But it's important for us to educate ourselves, to read more, to learn more before, like, reaching conclusions. And I can't fix it all. Like, I have thought about this so many times that, you know, can I magically make these problems disembate? fear because, you know, I suffered through that. And I wish, like, things were different in Swat Valley. I wish girls right now are not banned from learning by the Taliban. I wish, you know, there were no conflicts and crises in the world. And for me, I realized that, you know, one of the

best ways in which we can fight against many of the pressing problems, including poverty and how some people are left behind and marginalized, is to give them education, because education is that equalizing power. I know it's not going to fix every problem immediately. But it gives me hope that we can somehow make the lives of a lot of us better and we can help girls have a freer future. So, you know, I see education as the pathway. It must be really difficult for you because you're speaking out for compassion, like all things that I completely endorse and agree with.

Communication, education, women's rights. and also against extremism, right? But then meanwhile, because you're speaking out very often against Islamic extremism, right, the Taliban, that's catnip to elements of the far right in the West. Have you noticed that? And not even the far right, even on the right, there's this feeling like, oh, Islam's a problem. Have you picked up on that at all? Yes, I think it's there.

We have to talk about Islamophobia. And I have found myself that when there's a situation like this, than you have more haters on both sides than people who, in the external social media world, I don't think that's really representative of the reality. So you're catching it from traditional or super conservative or Islamists in Pakistan, they're having a part trolling you. And then meanwhile, Islamophobes are having a go at you.

You're having to walk this tightrope. And you're a fairly, by your dress, by your tie, your style of life, I think somewhat culturally conservative person. But is it sort of, I don't know, it's a difficult position to be, and I can imagine. I think there is more nuance to all of these conversations. Like, I do not see it in like black and white. No. I also think, you know, we should be critical of this idea where people associate Western clothing

with some sort of more liberty and freedom for women. I think that's not true. Like, why is Western clothing seen as? It's always about choice. That's the principle, not whether a woman wears a skirt and a hair. headscarp. Does she have a choice? Does she have the freedom to make those decisions for herself? And I know somehow these choices can be influenced by culture, but the more we remove the influence of the culture and the fear that women go through, I think we can have an environment

where women can have that liberty, where they do not feel like, you know, they're dressing just because they're supposed to or, you know, they will be punished if they don't, but it's simply because they want to. In France, they banned the burqa, I think. Did they? You wouldn't be in favor of that. No, I'm not. I'm against it, I think, and I'm also against the Taliban

imposing the burqa on women. And in Iran, there was all this unbelievable accounts of women being attacked and humiliated for not wearing their scarves. On the way here, just cycling to the studio, I saw a woman in full burqa,

so only her eyes were visible. Some people would see that and think, oh, that's an example of patriarchal oppression. And others would say that, no, that's just an observant conservative Muslim woman. What do you say? I think it's difficult to like come to a judgment that quickly

you will hear stories where it is because the husband or the man has asked her to dress that way. But you would also hear stories where a woman would say that, you know, that's how I think the religion tells me. But then at the same time, you'd also hear stories where, you know, people are saying that's not technically how the religion tells you to dress. You know, these interpretations are from mostly men who have described this conservative dress to women in their own way to say that you cover yourself, you know, every part of your body and accept your eyes so you can see your way. But there's a lot of like disagreement in that and there are many different opinions.

So when I look at it, I'm like, I wish we had just more open debate about the Islamic teachings as well. Like, you know, what are the different point of views and the different, because, you know, in Islam, we have many schools of thoughts and, like, what does each say? It's not that, you know, there's, like, a verse in Quran that says, yeah, like, on the eyes visible and cover yourself in black burqa. Like, I've also read, like, if you read, like, a lot of these translations have been done by men through history. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space.

As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Oh, well, we've all had big dreams, and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business, because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing, to product descriptions, to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot, turn those dreams into, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louie, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com

slash Louie, L-O-U-I-S. When the riots happened last year, did they start in Southport, was it? Do you remember all of that? Were you in the country? A bit, yeah. What was that like? It is difficult and I think we have to also talk about the use of social media and how people are spreading misinformation. The way social media is working right now, it wants people to react quickly,

to scream, to shout, to disagree with each other. And it's not just about that. I think it's also about hateful triggering content. Like if you do, if I put a tweet about, you know, something like an achievement or some progress we have made, that's not going to get the likes and retweets. But if I say something hateful and if I make an enemy, sure, that will get a lot of attention. But I will never go down that road, and I think... Even when you posted something about Gaza quite early on, October 2023,

and I looked at the comments and there was quite a lot of hate coming at you for saying that, oh, there's something horrific happening in Gaza. I think when I look at what's happening in Gaza and I don't claim to have you know, to have it all figured out but I think the most important thing right now is that we stand united as one voice for the people in Gaza who are suffering

in times like these when there's clear oppression happening it's not time for us to fight over a word or you use the word conflict and you should have used the word this I'm like, of course, you know, if we look at the definition of a genocide what is happening in Gaza is a genocide. And I never, ever said, I do not think it's a genocide.

But people just make these assumptions. And I guess that's how social media works, that you can only say so much. You are limited to like two, three sentences that, and if people disagree with you already, then they're going to look for something that you have not said or you have missed and they will create a whole narrative out of it. But, you know, I have tried to do everything that I can,

to raise awareness. And I think we need to empower. the voices of people from Gaza, it's not my voice that's important. It's not the voice of any celebrity. It's really their voices that we need to bring to our platforms and amplify those and we need to provide them support. So like we have been giving grants and support to organizations who are providing help to children, to women in this time and doing everything. Like it's meetings in public, meetings in private that, you know, I keep bringing this issue. It's not that, you know, it's not on my mind.

I bring it up in every meeting that I have had with any representative and any leader. Did you, were you invited to go on the flotilla? You know, Greta Toonberg, who you're often mentioned alongside, is on a flotilla attempting to bring attention to Gaza. Did they ask you to go? I have supported their work because we all need to do what we can in our capacity. And I think building pressure, from all sides is important.

Some people think that one way of activism is right and the other is not. No, I disagree with that. And I think all of, you know, we need to use all that we have in our capacity. At the same time, like, I think people should know that I am an advocate for girls' education. And I'm very clear on, like, on what issues I focus on. And I focus specifically on Afghanistan because girls' education is banned there. And when I talk about Gaza, I specifically talk about the

students and girls there. Israel has decimated the whole education system in Gaza they have bombed almost every school and all universities children cannot have a future they are starving that's what I want to bring attention to

like that's what people need to realize you know like I'm an education advocate and I want to see every child in in Gaza, every child in Palestine to have a normal student life which Israel is denying to them they're not even treated as equal people. So I do not have like, you know, I may not be able to have a full grasp of everything that's

happening or the historical understanding and I'm like learning as much as I can. But sort of in my role, that's something I want to bring attention to. And I have also been reflecting on why is it important to call it a genocide. I think some people in the beginning were saying that, oh, it's not a genocide yet because, you know, it doesn't fully meet the definition. and some people were saying, like, it clearly meets a definition. For me, I think it's important to call it a genocide because I think by now it has really met the definition. But even in the beginning, it was important to call it because when you know that the worst could happen, call it that at the right time.

And don't talk about it when it's done. The whole point of making genocide part of the international law was firstly to hold the people who committed it, in the past, but also to prevent it from happening in the future. I reflect on these things and I think about how I can be a better citizen, a better human, and we can be better by listening to others more, not jumping into conclusions too quickly, and not holding hate. And for me, like, the thing that I'm sort of highlighting in my new book is that I do not see myself as this political figure who has to have an opinion on everything

and has to get it right every time. I'm still learning. Yes. And I try to do what I can in my capacity. But I think that the way we have heard the stories of activists and these global figures is that they're somehow perfect and they're defined in one way

and they can never change and they have to have these fixed definitions. But I receive that at such a young age that at 17, I still was figuring out who I was. And for me, that exposure in college, letting myself find the guy or the crush that I thought could be the love of my life and talking more openly about the mental health journey is important. And I want to share that because I want to tell people that,

activists haven't figured it all out. Yeah, you get a crush on a bad boy. Yeah. Mysterious. I couldn't quite figure out what the charm was. He doesn't say anything. He just arrives and eats your food and then wanders off. You know, the charm was that he was handsome and good-looking.

What was the guy's name? Tarik. That's probably not his real name. No. I've changed the names of a lot of my friends. He's a real person. He's sort of a Heathcliff figure. Wonders in and out. He was a real person.

Troupled from a bad area. He's given, like, a chance to better himself. Well, that's not the wrong. Right, so he's given a chance in an education. He's got very ambivalent feelings about it. I tried to help him. I thought there was a way to get him out of all of that he was stuck in, but I think maybe he did not want to help himself.

So in the end, I... Yeah, I couldn't find a way for him. Let's talk about the Gange. There's a passage where you get bongued with a righteous puff, actually two puffs of quite powerful marijuana. It was the second time you'd tried it. And actually, it kind of flipped you out big time, didn't it? Yeah, so the first intake was fine.

I coughed and it didn't affect me. But the second time I inhaled it, I felt like it went into my body. And in that moment, I just, like, disconnected from my body, from the world outside. And it's really hard to describe and, like, relive that moment. But in some ways, I thought I was reliving the attack, even though I do not remember anything from that day. but I could feel like I was seeing the gunman. I felt like I was not able to reconnect with the world. I thought I was in that coma and somehow I just wanted it to disappear.

I wanted to go back in time and I wanted to feel normal again. But that was a new shift in my life. And it took me a long time to recover from that because after that I was having sleepless nights and sweating all the time and I could not concentrate on my studies it hugely affected me like physically as well it affected my work as well

and that's when I knew that I have to get some help and support so I... It was how long, it was like the next it wasn't even a few hours it was several days was it? Yeah it, you know the night was very difficult but it went on for a few days

even off you weren't high anymore you were just feeling what anxious Yes like I could not sleep anymore I just the moment I would close my eyes I felt like, you know, everything was coming back all of a sudden. Then I think, you know, when I went back to college and I was in my third year, I knew that it was now affecting my academic life as well.

And I could not even have a normal time with my friends. You know, like I was so grateful that I suddenly had these amazing friends and I loved being in their company. We could gossip about something. We could talk about essay crisis. And all of a sudden, that was gone. and I was having these panic attacks now and then. So, like, one day when I told a friend of mine that, you know,

I just was not feeling like myself, she recommended me this therapist. And that helped. That helped. In the beginning, I was very skeptical because, you know, I thought, what could they do? But then I thought, okay, maybe if they're supposed to help me, then they should have all the answers and they should immediately fix me in one meeting. but I realize that it is a process and they help you talk through it, think through it. They give you these different models to just understand it and separate emotions from thoughts,

from actions, from your feelings. And I was, you know, and I really appreciated that because it helped me think differently. And it's not that, you know, the mental health journey is now over and I have figured it all out. For me, it's about the fact that I know what I need. to do and that is ask for help. Was there anything in particular that helped you with the therapist? Like any piece of advice or? I think it was firstly just talking through things.

I think this whole idea of having a window of tolerance that is different for everybody and that could be different at every state of our life was very important. I thought that I had faced the worst that I could and I had. come out of such big trauma and attack, you know, and living under the Taliban, you know, which we talked through. Like, that was a very difficult time. I never knew that something so small could trigger me or could make me feel scared for a moment. Like, I could not even look at headlines about people getting killed or I could not, you know, look at an object like a knife. And somehow, like, I would start shaking and I just would just get scared. So for me,

it was this realization that somehow I was not meeting up the labels that I was receiving like the courageous Malala the brave Malala she knows it all and she's so strong she stood up to the Taliban and somehow now she's scared of these small things so she told me the therapist that it's a window of tolerance and it could get smaller and it can get bigger with time and right now because of a window of tolerance that you know we all can take in so much I know the therapists make it more technical but it's simply like we can only take so much at a point in life

and for me that was a very difficult time because firstly I was in my final year of university I had a lot of academic work to catch up on I was going through these panic attacks I also was dating a guy and I thought I had to make a big decision about whether to marry him or not and that topic was on my mind

and I was also just worried about what life would be like ahead of university. What should I be doing? What am I expected to do? What does it mean for an activist who has received all of these awards and has given this role already to do when she finishes her college? And I think in that moment, it was the intensity of all of these thoughts that were coming all together.

And I think, in her opinion, it was just too much for me to carry. So she said, like, yes, you know, and now that you had this, the Wong incident and this whole flashbacks, everything coming back, it's making it more difficult for you. It's okay to feel weak and vulnerable in this moment and don't feel like you have somehow failed. Like, it will get better with time. And she gave me, like, these different techniques, you know, taking deep breaths in and then slowly breathing out or having quiet times and all of these things, you know, the different things that a therapist can. give you. And that helped me a lot. I was really struck how much you agonized having met this guy who seems really nice about marrying him. And I was thinking, I guess maybe with a slightly Western frame

of, well, if you love him and you think you want to spend your life with him, you could marry him. But it becomes something more than that. It feels as though marriage seems to mean something to you. Can you talk about that? Like, it feels as though you'd be surrendering in some way. that's how it felt to me. I thought... He's there going like, please, like, I love you. Let's make this work. And you keep him hanging on.

I know, I know. And I loved him, no doubt. I was questioning marriage. For me, it was the whole institution. Marriage can mean anything, right? It can mean anything, right? It can even be more than two, right? Saying we want to spend our lives together.

Or we think we do. You know what I mean? No, I prefer just two people. Yeah. But I think for me, it was also like, how I grew up seeing marriage play a role in the lives of other people. I grew up watching girls being married when they were still children. I saw girls forcefully married, never being even asked.

Even my own cousin Nazanin, who I talk about in this book, lost her future because she was married off by the family. So somehow I thought that, you know, like marriage is just that topic. It's about oppression and I just want to stay away for it. from it. It was never like a good news for us when we were growing up. We just thought, okay, like a girl is getting married. Now the husband and the husband's family will be determining her future. In a traditional, in the community where you grew up, how does marriage take place? It's not quite boy meets girl, is it? Or is it?

I think it's changing now, but like in my parents' time, no. Then even in my time, hardly, barely. It's arranged? It's arranged. It's arranged. By family. By families, yes. And you might not, forgive my questions if they're really ignorant. And you might not have met the other person before, at what point do you meet them? Not on the wedding day. Yeah, on the wedding day.

For real? Yeah. That was fairly common? Yeah. That was normal. Yes. Yes. There are exceptions when it works for people.

And even now, people are like, you know, dating and people go on, love is blind and they do. this blind dating and then they live, you know, forever together, all of that. I think it's, for us, it was, and I think this is what people get wrong every time, as if these concerns are about marriage itself or these concerns are about arranging a marriage. It's not about that. It's about, we have to look at the context, in what context it's happening. And again, it's about a woman and a girl's choice and who's taking that decision for her. So in our culture, it was mostly about the family is deciding that and the girl was never even asked like that's the most important thing and the fact that it's happening you know while she's under 18 like this should not even be a conversation

under 18 under 16 under 16 I think under 18 in some parts but what would be the youngest you'd ever heard of when you were growing up 11 11 year olds getting married my classmate yes wow how old was the the groom the groom could be 30 35 40 40 25 doesn't matter. In that scenario, do you know if she was his first wife or? Yeah, she was the first wife. What was behind that? It's just the family thought like, you know, okay, now she's old enough because she has reached her puberty and that's it.

So we were in grade five and she disappeared. She never came back and I found out like three, four years later that she was married off and she had kids. She was still a child. by definition, when she had children. Like, it's important. I think for us, it's important to change laws. And that's one of the focuses of Malala Fund that we work on policy implementation

against, you know, like child marriage and these things and also more like financing for education, all of these things, to ensure that there is legal and systemic protection for women and girls. But at the same time, it's the implementation part of it and how does it translate into the local communities and how do they accept it? So that is something that is,

a lot of work and for that we work with local education activists. It takes time but I feel like with, you know, with us using all that we have from TV shows to how, you know, women's sports can play a role to also how direct advocacy among those communities, direct engagement, campaigning and and then even just providing more schools like providing better quality education can help with all of that. And then in the community they might view that as Western interference, right? But if you do it through the local organizations, I think you can do it the right way. And I think it should not be, you know, done in a way in which sort of we are saying,

oh, you know, in the West we think it's right. So, you know, that's how everybody should live. The local activists have done this job for 20, 30 years. They know how to explain into the local communities in their own language, in their own cultural context. And they teach them how to be better dads, how to be better leaders of their community. and that they are actually protecting the honor of the community by giving a better future for girls. And if they do things like honor killing

and if they stop girls from school and if they do these forced marriages, they're actually bringing a dishonor to their community. It is a lot of work, but I think more support to the local organizations is extremely critical for this. So-called honor killing is not Islamic, as I understand. No. Do we know where it comes from?

I don't know. I never asked, but I think sort of in our culture, they say that a man's honor lies in a woman's body. And I think we have to redefine that. When you say my culture, our culture, you mean Pashtun culture? Pashtun culture, that's what we... Which is the ethnic community in the north of Pakistan and across Afghanistan. Yes. Which is different from the majority of Pakistan. Yeah, like, you know, it's like Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochie.

She, Hazara, many different communities. You know, we hear about if, you know, a woman is facing, like, if she has faced harassment or rape or something, then she's sort of punished for it. That's unbelievable. That's one of the most extraordinary thing. The idea as well, was that one where a woman was, forgive me for even using the term, but gang raped.

Yeah. As a punishment for something, do you know the details on this? In fact, the woman is an advocate now. Mukhtar Mai. She was gang raped in June 2002 on the orders of a panchaat village council as, quote, punishment for her younger brother's alleged illicit relations with a woman from a rival tribe. And then it was expected that she would kill herself out of shame, but she didn't.

I mean, that is too horrific even to comprehend, isn't it? Yeah. And the other thing to say is there was a, I guess Amnesty International did some kind of a survey and determined the five worst countries for women. Number one was Afghanistan. Number two was the Democratic Republic of Congo. Three was Pakistan. It says this is Afghanistan.

87% of Afghan women are illiterate. That's a random fact. 70 to 80% face forced marriage, many before the age of 16. That's Afghanistan. Pakistan would be different. Yeah, and we want that to change. We want there to be no discrimination. against women in any part of the world.

Do you think it's going in the right direction? Does it feel like it is? In some countries, yes, but I think in Afghanistan, it has worsened. What about Pakistan specifically? In Pakistan, it's getting better, I would say. There is more hope. The work that the civil society is doing is incredible. But then we also, you know, of course I talk about the culture and how these narratives shift, but it's also the natural disasters. Floods in 2022 or 2023 affected thousands of schools.

Floods right now in the northern provinces and in many other parts of Pakistan, again, damaged and demolished so many schools. So climate change and extreme poverty and these extreme ideologies and misogyny and patriarchy are still affecting education. directly. Like, you know, gul's are the first ones to drop out, the last

ones to return, their schools are washed away, their schools are targeted. So it is concerning and I think, you know, we need more funding, more support to create a more climate resilient education system and figure out, you know, other ways that kids do not

miss out on the right to learn. It feels as though there's still suspicion of you in Pakistan. There's many people who love you, support you see you as an ambassador, but it's difficult if you're an advocate but you're not living in your home country and they're sort of saying like, oh, you're making us look bad or even that you're a Western stooge or a CIA asset, even after you were you were attacked, there were conspiracy theories circling straight away, right?

I know, I'm like the agent of so many countries. Just get tiring. I know, I know. I work for almost every country. I think Pakistan is the country I was born in. And I love Pakistan, and I will always be a Pakistani. I think nobody can take that away from me. I do not have to prove my patriotism and my love for my country. For me, the best investment in the country is to give education to every child.

And that is my way of giving back to the country for all the love and everything I have received. I want to go to Pakistan as much as I can. but I consider myself now as this global citizen I travel everywhere I call so many places home now Pakistan will always be my home but now home is Birmingham to me home is London to me

home is the time I spend with my friends and my incredible colleagues and the time I spend with my husband all of that is home to me now so I have like redefined that and I know people will always have an opinion and I can't change that but I just think about all the support

and the love I have received and I really value that. Is Oxford home as well? Oxford is sort of home, yeah, the fun part, not the essays and the assignments. I was at Oxford. Which college? Not making a big thing out of it.

Oh, Mordland. Mordland, interesting. Is that interesting? I liked Mordland. Mourland is a beautiful college. What did you study? History. street nice. Yeah, nice. What did I get? Did you say? A first. Oh, sorry. No, that's not a

question I asked. Yeah. I wasn't distracted by having to be a global leader for change and I did actually smoke quite a lot of pot. So I can't say I wasn't distracted by that. Yeah. I worked so hard. See, you missed out on a lot, I guess. I think I did. Yeah. maybe we're there thank you so much Malala was so wonderful speaking to you

thank you so much thank you welcome back thank you welcome back thank you for joining me for that chat the takeaways were in no particular order. The bong incident, it's a big thing in the book, and that's already made headlines, I think, in some of the coverage of the book. Did I smoke a bong at

Oxford, you are asking? Did I cover that in the chat? I didn't smoke a lot of bongs, but other things. I definitely didn't have as horrific a sort of psychotic break as Malala did. Why am I making it about me? What she said was, I was, I was, I was, I was a sort of psychotic break as Malala did. What she said was, I was not meeting it with the labels I was receiving, and those labels were things like the courageous Malala, the brave Malala. She knows it all, and she's so strong. I can certainly understand how, I mean, it seems self-evident that if you've been through a massive trauma, an unspeakable level of trauma, that will be with you. And then getting completely bongued is not going to help. But at the same time, if I'm completely honest, I was also aware that I was in danger

of dragging her back. She, I mean, to be fair, Malala did bring up the assassination attempt. In preparing for the interview, I became very interested in how the Taliban took over that region and the ways in which they existed alongside the formal government. And maybe I should explain as well that in my head was the possibility that we're living through not a comparable moment but a moment that has certain parallels. So I was thinking about how that takes place by stealth and then there's this sort of transition moment and when do you know that you're in it and how do people behave when they're in it. So I suppose that was why I was sort of interested in exploring that and maybe she was more interested in putting that behind her. Fair enough. No judgment.

I got interested in Mullah Fazlula, the Mullah who basically was a cable car operator in the Swat Valley and then became a charismatic guru and the head of the Taliban. He also instructed the assassin who shot Malala. He basically broadcasted what was called Radio Muller on an FM radio channel. Prohibited activities were routinely declared and violator's names announced for assassination, which often included beheading. He led a drive, eradicating vices such as music dancing, and what he calls major sources of sin, TV, CD's computers.

He threatened barbers who shaved their customers' beards. He opposed polio vaccination. He was an anti-vaxer. Fascinating. Thanks so much for listening. That's all for this week. All that's left to do are the credits. The producer was Millie Chu,

The assistant producer was Marne Al-Jazeri. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics

or be blasted off into space as it happens neither of those dreams came true I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity Ah well we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen This is your sign to stop holding back And go for it

Especially if your dream is to run a business Because Shopify is making it easier than ever It's there to support you every step of the way from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S.

That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-U-I-S.