The Louis Theroux Podcast - S6 EP7: Marina Abramovic on the relationship between performance and pain, never feeling loved in her childhood, and harmful conspiracies

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

For the final episode of this series, Louis travels to Manchester to sit down with Marina Abramovic, the self-proclaimed “grandmother of performance art”. Marina tells Louis the stories behind some of her most famous artworks, as well as the relationship between performance and pain, never feeling loved in her childhood, and being caught in the middle of an online conspiracy.       Warnings: Strong language and adult themes.     Links/Attachments:    Balkan Erotic Epic, Marina Abramovic (2025)  https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2025/may/22/manchester-to-host-world-premiere-of-marina-abramovics-balkan-erotic-epic     The Artist is Present, Marina Abramovic (2010)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2073029/    Lips of Thomas, Marina Abramovic (1975)  https://www.guggenheim.org/artwork/5176    Rhythm 0, Marina Abramovic (1974)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTBkbseXfOQ&list=PL0bCt-VbCH4N3823Lj7uNAFLiYDjSnbTp&index=1    Cut Piece, Yoko Ono (1964)  https://www.moma.org/audio/playlist/15/373     Cut Piece, Yoko Ono (2005):  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/16/arts.france     Bob Wilson’s Life and Death of Marina Abramovic, (2012)  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2177497/     Book: When Marina Abramovic Dies, James Westcott (2014)  https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262526814/when-marina-abramovic-dies/     Light – Dark, Ulay & Marina Abramovic (1978)  https://www.stedelijk.nl/en/collection/13991-ulay-light-dark     Seedbed, Vito Acconci (1972)  https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/266876     Seven Easy Pieces, Marina Abramovic (2005)  http://pastexhibitions.guggenheim.org/abramovic/     The Great Wall Walk, Marina Abramovic (1988)  https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2020/apr/25/marina-abramovic-ulay-walk-the-great-wall-of-china     Book: Walk Through Walls: A Memoir, Marina Abramovic (2016)  https://www.waterstones.com/book/walk-through-walls/marina-abramovic/9780241974520     Balkan Baroque, Marina Abramovic (1997)  https://www.singulart.com/blog/en/2024/06/03/balkan-baroque-by-marina-abramovic/?srsltid=AfmBOopPyXzjOP800ERQMaHvbiNNps0oMBOCmOKjWOhdpNt6X6kEvu2k   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQigTZuTmv0    BBC Maestro, Marina Abramovic:  https://www.bbcmaestro.com/courses/marina-abramovic/the-art-of-being-present    Article: ‘Marina Abramovic Just Wants Conspiracy Theorists to Let Her Be’, New York Times, 2020  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/arts/design/marina-abramovic-satanist-conspiracy-theory.html     The Seven Deaths of Maria Callas (2022)  https://www.harrisonparrott.com/news/2022-11-04/marina-abramovic-brings-the-seven-deaths-of-maria-callas-to-royal     The Truth Vs Alex Jones (2024)  https://tv.apple.com/gb/show/the-truth-vs-alex-jones/umc.cmc.1azsv881ew8mcjozutufy51vf     Credits:  Producer: Millie Chu   Assistant Producer: Maan al-Yasiri   Production Manager: Francesca Bassett   Music: Miguel D’Oliveira   Audio Mixer: Tom Guest  Video Mixer: Scott Edwards   Shownotes compiled by Elly Young  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows       A Mindhouse Production for Spotify   www.mindhouse.co.uk   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mike number one, mic number one, isn't this a lot of fun? Hello there, and welcome back to the podcast that I like to call the Louis Theroux podcast. And for our final episode of the run, we have something a little bit different. We're going into the realms of art, not just art, but performance art. In fact, the self-professed grandmother of performance art, Marina Abramovich. We've had an artist on before, Tracy Eman, you'll remember her. Marina is, I would say, just as celebrated, illustrious, internationally fated. But she takes us into a realm in which the body and performance, the clue is in the word, are the means of expression.

And in this world where I'm talking about the wider world now, people watch YouTube, we're all glued to influences and YouTubers doing what they call endurance challenges. Have you come across that? Mr. Beast staying up, counting from 1 to 10,000 or 100,000 or whatever, or I stayed in a box for 10 days. I went without sleep for three weeks, whatever. I was kind of curious to see the performance art end of that. I mean, these are completely unrelated worlds, but there's something in the idea of putting ourselves through something intolerable that is captivating in an almost voyeuristic way. And while there is much more to her than just that, certainly Marina embodies parts of that. She's pioneered various forms of conceptual and performance art exploring body art, endurance art, we sort of talked about that, and involvement of the audience to test the physical limits of the body through performance. So even if you may be slightly art-averse, I think you may still be intrigued to hear how all of this works and the strange lengths to which Marina's performances and others in that

space can take them. Long-duration is a word that comes up a lot in the chat. It just means she's doing something for a long time. Her most famous piece arguably is called The Artist is present in which she sat in a chair in a museum in a gallery for hours and hours every day for a period of months. And then there are other like long walks or slapping, self-mortification of various kinds. We also talk about a famous piece called Rhythm Zero where she placed 72 objects on a table that the public could use freely on her body and things ended up going Aray. Balkan Baroque, 1997, she scrubbed thousands of bloody cowbones over a period of four days. It was a reference to the ethnic cleansing that took place in the Balkans during the 1990s.

The artist is present. We talked about that one as part of a major retrospective of her work in 2010 at MoMA. Marina performed a 736 hour. Not continuously, she went home and slept. Static peace, where she sat and invited the public to take turns sitting across from her in silence. There's also a documentary by the same name which I've watched and I recommend. It follows both the creation of that piece but also how she came up in the world of art, how she evolved her unique way of working, her relationship with her other half, and former collaborator, Uly. Uly turns up in the documentary. He sits across from her as part of the piece and she's surprised to see him there

and it's kind of the climax of the documentary. We also talk about other performance artists, including the infamous Herman Nitch of the Vienna Action School. He's a name to conjure with. He's kind of across kind of weird cult-like practices. I think he got into trouble. He used to mutilate, I shouldn't say mutilate, maybe just kill animals as part of his art piece

and then writhe around in them and maybe orgies took place. It was controversial. We also mentioned American performance artist Vito O'Conci, whose work Seed Bed, Marina re-performed as part of a work in 2005, tiny bit X-rated. The clue is in the word seed. We also talk about the American broadcaster and far-right radio show host, Alex Jones, who is obsessed with the idea of VIP paedophiles in positions of power and PizzaGate, if you remember that conspiracy theory that involved Hillary Clinton, and the idea that these intercepted emails were using pizza as code for child. All of it completely and comprehensively debunked as the workings of a kind of feebrile imagination plus social hysteria. Nevertheless, Alex Jones has enormous reach and he publicly accused Marina of being involved in satanic ritual abuse, pedophile child trafficking, all of it absolutely and completely without merit. with devastating consequences for Marina.

And we talk about that right at the end. So stay tuned to the very end to hear that part of the conversation. We recorded this in October this year. Another LTP, is it LTP or TLTP? The, doesn't matter. On the road, this time in a very rainy Manchester to visit Marina while she rehearsed her new show, Balkan Erotic Epic, B.E, which was performed through October. I went to see it after the show was recorded.

Maureen was also promoting BBC Maestro, and of course she has coming out in December, where she teaches the viewer the Abramovich method. A quick warning, this conversation contains some strong language, adult themes, there's discussion of, can I say it, masturbation, I said it. All that and much else besides coming up. This episode is brought to you by Shopping. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space.

As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Ah well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash louis. That's shopify.com slash louis. L-O-U-I-S.

that's shopify.com slash louis L-O-U-I-S Welcome Yes How are you? I have no idea yet I didn't even think about you

I have no time to think how am I at this moment You've got a lot going on. A lot of going on You've always got a lot going on But we should mention So right now you have The show that you're preparing here in Manchester

Called Balkan Balkan Erotic Epic Are we starting already? Yeah, we've already started Tricy

Then I want to tell with my Balkan voice Again the title Yes You're here because Balkan erotic epic wow you give it a bit more

umph but you're also doing you're doing some courses for BBC Maestro so that that's going on as well let's start from the beginning let's start from the rainy Manchester who well that is that the beginning

yeah who was it who said a story should have a beginning a middle and an end but not necessarily in that order that's a good quote right but I have I have this wonderful woman who she was 110 years in Brazil when I met her and she was unbelievable

like so full of energy little one and incredible vital eyes you know bright and shiny she said to me the most important thing in life is how to enter and how you end not bad either very true when we're going to talk about

Balkan erotic should we talk about that let's get it out there tell me what's the theme for Balkan it is a re-performance right you did originally did it in 2004 No, it's not reprified. Balkan erotic epic is looking to the old Balkan rituals from 4th century to 17, 80th century

when the vagina and pharoses are used in order to answer the unanswered question on universe relationship with the gods and our future. How erotic does it get? I think there's some nakedness in, isn't there? I want to ask you one thing. Go on, please. I'm not low road. You have to give me work of honor now that you come and visit and to see this piece.

Okay. I need you to see it. I can do that. And I really want you to see. And I want you to have a complete open mind. I don't want to have any judgment thing to see everything in this four hours. And then let me what you think. Can you come in and just watch 15, 20 minutes?

Or do you really need to have experienced? This is the whole thing about this work. You actually miss everything. You have to see the four hours? You miss the development. You miss the people performing simply actions, four hours. You miss exhaustion, the tragedy, but also the beauty. Is it an immersive piece?

Does the audience member walk around or are they static? No, audience can sit, walk around, what can we do. But they're so involved. How many rooms is it? Just one room? It's one big room with the 13 stages on it. 13 stages. I can't.

quite visualize it. I don't think of ever... Are you seeing you went there? I didn't. They didn't let me see it. I'm going down and take your hand to go there with me immediately after this. It's a word for that. It's kidnapping.

I'm definitely kidnapping. You're not moving from here till I bring you there. Then you see immensity. It's the most immense, the most difficult. It could be coercive control. It's more... I think you need sometimes. Yes.

This is my prescription. Dr. Abramwich needs you lose control. Lose control. I think you've got me pegged as overly controlled Yeah loose control It's interesting that you need me to be that That's fascinating

I'm getting an insight So if I went to see it And then I went for the four hours What would you hope would happen In the Balkan Rotary? Yeah for me Like what could I get out of it I don't mean to say like

I want you to sell it to me But what do you think is the experience You know what really is happening there Why I'm doing this piece today and now That's important Because why look at what we are doing in this planet who is going to fucking hell

everything is going wrong from the wars all the things politicians the warming of the planet and I'm doing something with something completely different because only energy in our body is sexual energy

how you translate this energy into love, tenderness and recreation for the new human being or into aggression war and violence that's the same energy. You think it's all from sexual

at the beginning? That's the only energy we have. You believe so? Absolutely believe. So here, this piece is about hope and healing and it's a right to show it in this period

of human history and it's not about pornography it's about humanity. You did it. Can I ask something? I'm always, you know, I have a podcast, I do these interviews with people.

I'm always conscious, you know, I talked to a big, musicians, actors, directors, and occasionally an artist. What's the difference, by the way? What's the difference? The difference is that with an artist, I always feel a slight compulsion to help the audience understand what art is. You know, we know what music is, we know what films are, TV,

we don't always know what art is. Actually, you're really telling me that you're very uncomfortable with artists, more or less. I don't know. Maybe there is a degree of not discomfort. But a kind of feeling that, you know, how it works in society and who it's reaching. And also that there are people out there who are suspicious of it. But also that I think it can be very relatable. And in fact, your art has a huge following.

You're probably the most famous, certainly of conceptual artists. And your show, I was reading the show, the artist is present that you did at MoMA in 2010, and 850,000 people showed up for that. I remember because I saw the documentary that was made at that time, which is really worth a watch for anyone who's listening or watching. Can I tell you a little bit of this documentary?

It was the first time in my life that I agree to have my camera on for absolutely one year all the time. And the crew had the key of my apartment and they would come six in the morning and put camera on my face to wait for when I wake up. If I had the fish poison, they will film in the bathroom, they film everything.

So the camera really stopped being actually camera, which is the kind of part of my body. But this is the only way that I have to actually explain to the public what means transformative piece. They have to see how actually is done. You said, I want to make sure I understand you. You said this was the only way to show the public, what does this mean this?

Formative, did you say? No, the transformative energy of the performance. Because people have no idea what the performance is, never had and still don't have. Of performance art in general, do you think? I'm talking about performance type that I'm doing, which is not, you know, you call performance everything, performance

the car, performance of the dog or the cat or whatever, the theatre piece, the music. No, I'm talking about really performance art which is only talking about long durational one. Long durational ones. The director of the documentary is called Matthew Acres.

Were you friendly with him? He was probably quite annoying by the end. Oh, this was so funny, because with Matthew Acres, he was just young, young, literally director, very young, no money at all. And it was a kind of dinner that we met each other. And I was telling him that I have a group of the, you know, the re-performing artists that I have to, you know, train and give them no food and not talking and, you know,

do all my Abramwich method in the river in order to prepare. This was a young group of young performers who you were training to reproduce or re-perform. the long direction pieces that you've done before. So you put them through a kind of art boot camp

and it's a sequence in the documentary they arrive fresh-faced idealistic and it's quasi religious artistic self-help

it feels like almost Tony Robbins meets I don't know Winneth Paltrow you know what I mean yes but it's not

anyway we have to go back to Mark so he arrived at that time there was no money he didn't have the crew and he said to me

I really don't believe performance. I don't give a sheet of performance. And I say, okay, let's do this project together and I'm going to convince you. And he came to this bus come and then he got so much in it then we got in HBO money and we got some money and we went documentary.

And this was so important, that kind of trust that he established between him and me. And on the end, we have 750 hours of material. You know, I have to train myself in order to do this work that I sit emotionless without drinking, peeing, taking any

kind of movement in, you know, eight hours a day in the museum. Eight hours a day, six days a week for three months. Three months every single day. I have to, you know, train my body like astronaut. I have to absolutely not eat anything during the day. So this was one entire year to change my metabolism in order to do that. So he followed all of this. On the end, when I finished performance, I stand up from the chair,

he said, I believe in you. It was a big deal. And then we got six wars for this. movie, you know. You won six awards. It was a big deal for you, for him to say that, that you'd sort of won him round in a way. You know, it's not about him, it's about general, everybody. I have to tell you, in the 70s, performance was treated like a shit, and there was terrible criticism. From who? From the public, from the journalist, from everybody. No one got it. And really, I, when I got invitation to perform in MoMA, I could really show the world.

I didn't go to invitation to perform. It was just to show my performance work from the past. Were you the first performance artist to be given a retrospective at MoMA? This was taken seriously. And the curator, Klaus Bieselbach, say to me, okay, the show is going to be artist, is present because you're always in every work, because I'm art and object that I'm working with. And when he said that, I knew what I'm going to do. Because, you know, in old-fashioned stories when you have exhibition with the painting,

on the invitation is written. Art is going to be present. So you come for the opening, blah, blah. I could do this exactly the same. I could come for the opening. I could have a great dinner with the friends, go home and just have a retrospective and die in the piece

that I have the great show in the great museum. But I want to show the transformative power of performance. I want to be there every single day, this amount of time, never moving, to see what will happen, just sitting on the chair with a table chair in the front of me. And then Klaus Biesaba said to me, you're totally ridiculous.

This is New York. Nobody has time to sit in this chair. They're just going to, you know, be empty. The chair was never empty. When you say it's transformative, okay, it's worth saying that it's an extraordinary sequence in the film. I was never privileged to be there. People would queue up. There were hundreds of them. Sometimes someone would, there was no time limit. I was struck by that, that you didn't say you each get a minute. So sometimes someone would be there the whole day, correct? One guy sits seven hours. It seems a bit selfish. It doesn't matter.

It was all being in present. But imagine being behind him in the queue. I don't see that way at all. I see, you know, after he, everybody understood that he would never leave the chair. People just sit there anyway. And that becomes... And never left. People sleep on the street and wait.

So how can be something that you're absolutely doing nothing have so much impact? This is power of performance I'm talking about. There's a part of the fascination with your work is to do with what you put yourself through. And you mind if we just talk about that for a second because certainly people might disagree about whether it's art. There might be people out there who think, well, that's just dangerous or self-motification or maybe closer to a religious exercise. But it's extraordinary the extent to which you've, I guess, suffered, or certainly put yourself at risk, put yourself in extreme. discomfort privation. Can we talk about that for a second? Is that all right? I know it's kind of basic. Just to bring people with us a little bit. And a lot of it was in the 70s and then,

but it's continued. I mean, as you said, when you were sitting for literally hours without me. I know what you're going to do. You're going to ask people about Rhythm Zero. Before we mention Rhythm Zero, which lips of Thomas, aka Thomas's lips, you sat nude, ate a kilogram of honey, drank red wine, then cut a five-pointed star in your abdomen with razor, and whipped yourself until you collapsed in exhaustion on a cross of ice blocks. And then this performance will perform one hour and I re-performed with I was 60 years old in Guggenheim seven hours, the same piece.

Did it again. And there's pictures of you bleeding and, I mean, there's so many... Isolated, say bleeding, looks so terrible and terrifying. But you know you have to understand context. You understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. Of course.

Well, let's understand the context. So, first of all, when I start working with my body, it was this all idea in that time of body art. Body is the place when things happen. If you work with your body, the blood is the color. You use the, instead of paint, instead of brush, you use razor. So, the first thing that you ask yourself, where is the limits of physical body? Then you do performances and you put yourself through the situation when you expose public to the day. at physical limits of my body.

And one thing that in our entire culture, we are always afraid three things. Pain, suffering, and mortality. And all the history of art is based on these three things. And what I do in performance, I stage that problems in the front of the public, which I never do in my home.

I don't like pain at all. I even cut a little finger on the garlic, I cry. But I stage them in the front of the public and I go through them. And if I can go to liberate myself, from the fear of pain, you can do the time. I'm your mirror. You know, all of these things that you think was difficult. One of the most difficult things in my life was not these performances.

It was sitting on the chair eight hours without moving. It's a hell. Sit on the chair one hour without moving. See three hours and see what happened. Your old body is a horrible pain. Then when you absolutely have the willpower, which I only could have when I was 65, to say, I don't move no matter of, and you push body that far. Happen miracle.

Pain completely disappear. It's not there anymore. And then I understand that actually inside of your body, there's so much movements that you didn't realize. There's space between kidneys and ribs. There's space between your stomach. It's space between the heart, whatever. And you move inside without being moving outside.

There's so many ways how you can shift the pain in no pain experience. And that's really a miracle. You only can have this when you understand long-duration of work, when you really have the power to go to the end. And this is what I'm doing. Pain is the door of secrets. You have to open pain in order to find the other way. You have open consciousness to different dimensions, my dear.

When does it, I know you've been asked this before, but how do you know when it's just becoming masochism? It doesn't, because I'm not doing for any kind of pleasure, first of all. And I'm doing this for the really, I have very strong reason and share with the public. What about, I mean, and then again, I don't want to get too stuck on categories, but there's a sense in which you could put it in a religious framing, right?

That there's religious practices, fake ears and aesthetics. You know it's not anything to do religion because I'm an artist. Everything I do in contexts is of heart. If the baker made the great bread, he's still the baker. But he can make art bread with still the bloody baker. The garden is still the garden. But if I make the bread in the gallery's art, contexts make the change.

You mentioned Rhythm Zero. Rhythm Zero became famous because it was in 1974. I didn't mention. I knew that you're going to ask. Well, I didn't mention. Not put on me, please. In the gallery in Naples, there were 72 objects placed on a table. A rose, a feather, honey, again, scissors, a knife, a gun, a single bullet, many others.

There was a sign indicating the audience could use those items on you as you wished. Who was in the audience? It's normal public. Just normal public. You know, but first of all... And it kind of jumped the tracks. I thought... You know, because I've seen...

There's also a famous Yoko Ono piece from the 60s called Cut, I think. And you see film of it, and people come up and they just delicately and gingerly are sniffing off pieces of her clothing, right? To me, very poetical piece, no comment. And then later on, she re-performed this piece with her son.

Different. This is unknown public. You never know you're going to... to kill you not. I had a gun. Well, the vibe of your piece was different. It sounded like there was aggression, hostility, some sort of a strange sense that they wanted to harm you. But I was so angry.

Why were they angry? I was 23 years old and I was so incredibly angry. Oh, you were angry? Yes, I was angry how the three performers start. I give my life for my idea. So you can do anything you want. I take full responsibility. I just stand there in the gallery.

There is a bullet, there is a pistol, there is things for pleasure, that is for not pleasure, there's shanes, that's the axe, that is hell. And I didn't do anything. And I said six hours are going to stand there. And the public went crazy. You were standing, not sitting.

Six hours. You said they went crazy. Yeah, but this is not me. I didn't do anything. I was not mesochistic to my body. There was them to me. And I knew the public can kill you. Took me 30 years later to do artists present.

When I learned the lesson, the public can kill you, to do peace, where I restrict public. to nothing. Public can touch me, they can talk to me, they can move, they can sit at the table and the chair and just involved in the gaze. I give them the gaze and that really changed everything. Were you surprised at the reaction of the public when you presented Rhythm Zero? I didn't care about this.

I just care about my idea that I am not masochies in my work. I want to show that the public can fucking kill you and this is what I show in this piece and I move on. Yeah. But you think they were annoyed. They thought like this stupid woman, she thinks she's an artist. Do you think that was in their head?

Like, well, if you want us to use it, then we're going to show you what that's really like. Is that, was that in there? I didn't worry about that. You don't worry about that. I don't care about this. I only know that the last, after six hours, and the galleries say the six hours is over.

I start walking towards public. I was naked. I was full of blood. I was in terrible state. Somebody cut my neck, dinked the blood and all the rest. Someone cut your neck and drank the blood. And then I was walking to them and they all run away. And I got back to the hotel and I look in the mirror and have a big piece of gray hair.

A different time, a different place. I think the reaction would be different, don't you? If you presented that at MoMA... But you see, I don't look into past. Don't give you shit about past. I'm only looking at what I'm doing now. To me, important is now. And it's important, which is my next work.

And it's important. The next year I'm getting 80. and how much life and still have to finish everything I want. If I start looking to past and what I feel there and I didn't feel there, I don't give a shit anymore.

I made the work and this work is for you to judge, write about, discuss, you know, reproduce in many different places. But I'm gone. I've done it.

I can't go back to constantly to think about past. But I want to say good work of our many lives. And I'm proving that with this kind of work. I mean, Rhythm Zero came out in the press all the time, but there was period nobody talked

about. And now, we are 21st century, and it's on still, and you're asking me, so it's still on. Well, and I think you sort of answered this, because it's a sense of which it's part of a lineage. Someone else doing it would have less meaning. You know, the fact that it came out of

a tradition, out of experiences you'd been through. I have to say also, that I come from Balkan. I've come from ex Yugoslavia, from really Tito time where what I was doing, I was the black sheep. I was like, this was kind of unthinkable. My parents would have been really questioned party meetings. What is hell is happening?

You know, it's very much to do with my background. How I get that I'm here now, you know. There's a quote which I found interesting. You said, only ideas that really disturb me and I'm afraid of, something that is like so demanding and stay for a long time obsessional in my system. That's the idea I'm going to do. I'm absolutely right quote, yes. Absolutely yes.

Everything which is nice and beautiful and I like, I have no point to doing it. You repeat yourself. You're the same over and over again. There's no charge. There's no, if you wanted to really get experience and go to another level, you have to do things for difficult, unknown.

And you also have to learn to fail because not every time that you're success. If you go to something you don't know, You don't know what's the end. You fail, you stand up, and you go on. Can we unpack that a tiny bit, that idea of something that's disturbing and why that is a helpful compass for your artistic work? Disturbing morally or disturbing in terms of...

Disturbing to me. In what way? Different things. You know, which is incredibly interesting kind of thing that people don't really do deal so much, how to stage things that you're ashamed of? Shame is to me a loss of disturbing thing. Shame. To be shame.

To be shame. You know, the first thing is shame to be naked in the front of the public, to start with. And exactly what I did. Shame to, you know, how you look or notice is too big. You know, whatever you're thinking about. Just shame of the secrets that I want to share. I don't have secrets. I tell everything.

When I made the life and death of Marina Bramovich with Bob Wilson, also in Manchester some years ago, you know, Bob Wilson, With Robert Wilson, the famous avant-garde American theatre director. Was it a theatrical piece? It was a theatrical piece. It was really theatrical piece. Is that with Willem Defoe? Yes.

Which is interesting in this piece. I wanted to actually make my funeral on the stage. And I always want to have three marinas who live in three different places in the world, which is in Amsterdam, Belgrade and New York. And then I see it. It's your dream funeral. Is that what you're saying?

Yes. You want three marinas. And then there'll be three funerals and then people won't know which casket your body's actually in. But the three celebrations in the same time. Why three? I like three because I first I like three because there's three marinas in me anyway. It's one heroic one, one spiritual one and one bullshit one. All three live such a nice life.

But can I just finish what I'm saying? Okay. God, difficult with you. So what I want to say. So Bob Wilson, I give him this all my work and I give him all my diaries. You know, to make material because I want it to be actually what I want. I want to give everything from me and I want him to direct me. I want that my biography look fresh and different to me.

Otherwise, you always choose the same things. So, to show to the public. So he took everything. He called me to talk and he said, I'm absolutely not interested in your art. Everybody knows. Which I'm interesting in your bullshit, sad, terrible childhood stories. and this child's stories we're going to make them slapsticks

because only when you make something tragic, funny, really hits you harder. Otherwise look kitschy. So they're so incredibly sad for me that I'm crying through the entire rehearsal literally crying. He said to me one day, can you stop

this stupid crying? The public have to cry, not you. Then we rehearse. Then we play this piece. Then I completely liberate myself from this, completely of all the trauma stories. Then we play this theater in New York, we came the very important psychoanalyst to my green room, I have to see you. And she said to me, Marina, which I just see on the stage, you sell yourself 25 years of

very, very expensive therapy. And this is what I do. I, as William Defoe, it was a very important part of the show, he said to the, you know, in one interview you say, why this biography works? because this biography is actually so personal they become biography of all of us because it's transcendental. You take something deep and you turn it

and become story of everybody, all human people. You've talked about your upbringing being difficult, the parents being violent, maybe with each other. Yeah, it's all true in a biography, but it's great. They were partisans, they were war heroes

and loyal communists they separated your mum you've described as extremely undemonstrative in her physical, in her affection didn't kiss you I mean never touched me but my grandmother was wonderful

and she was hate communism the grandmother was more religious she was Orthodox Christian do you think you felt a lot of shame growing up that idea you mentioned earlier owning shame but you know my mind also went to shame in the culture and Donald Trump How you get Trump together with communism and my mother is amazing.

It's really genius. Genius jump. Shame because that shame is double-edged. Shame is imprisoning. But you see someone in Trump, someone who has no shame. And that's the source of enormous power. In a shame-based culture, if you have no shame, you're all like omnipotent. No one can embarrass or disgrace you because you say, yeah, I did it and no one cares, right?

But also, I show shameful things. I show, you know, this thing that I'm shame of and I share with you. But I mean, whatever's through my work. But you still feel shame about things? Less and less, probably. You know, but who knows? You know, I'm really ashamed that I feel terribly

afraid when it's turbulence in the plane. Immediately it takes the right New Testament. If there's turbulence, I can relate to that. I think that's not shame, that's just fear. But wait, how you put Trump into the shame? because I'm thinking like you were saying like we need to rid ourselves of shame and I was thinking actually no I think we need shame and some people need more shame but can I honestly wait wait it's so interesting this thing let's go back to Trump shame on you let's go back to Trump yes have you met Trump never so would you like to meet him no so I don't care so Trump is actually amazing psychologist because he understands the stupidity of the huge population of America America. America is not New York. Apologies to all our American fans.

Wait, America is not Los Angeles and not America is not Chicago. You're making it worse now. You've actually made it more snobbish. I think we have to say like the matter of the public is uneducated globally. And America, because it's a superpower, they don't really think a lot about the rest of the world. They're surprisingly ignorant about geography. Okay, let's put him out. But honestly, which I want to say, he really, I think he's playing this.

all shameful story. This is act. I don't think he's capable of a different act, though, do you? I don't know. Actually, not really busy with him. I don't think she's ever actually worshipped anything, said James. I cannot tell you, something that I really, really

love about BBC. The time when he was visiting the Palace, the BBC made two programs of Trump, including 42 lies and another problem. Congratulations. This was really nice. Nice balance. I didn't know that. You never saw that?

You don't look television or look like. I never watched television. I knew it. No. I make television. I watch a lot of television. You make one. I do make programs sometimes.

It's like sausages. If you know how they're made, you don't eat them. That's a joke. I watch a lot of television. Okay, this is James Westcott, your biographer, said, What she has done, this is about you, is Gray's world religions and esoteric spiritual practices as source material for experimental performances

and meditation tools to solve her bottomless emotional pain. I didn't write this. This is opinion. I made my own biography. Are you in a lot of pain? Do you think there was a lot of pain there to do with your upbringing? I'm not trying to sound like super like psychological, but maybe there was a lot of pain, a lot of shame.

Were you made to feel ashamed? Can I tell you, it's so good all this to experience. You see where I am now. I'm really happy. Well, we didn't talk about the pain. Yeah, because you have to have all this. What was the stuff? Because you mentioned it with the Robert Wilson as well,

the stuff that were making you cry. We don't have to go deep into this. I'm just curious. I was beaten as a child. Many children in the entire world been beaten. I think you had done. I was a difficult child too. I mean, you have to admit.

I was rebel constantly. And, you know, I was slopped around many times. By your mother? My mother, mostly, never father. And grandmother would sometimes take her pantouffles and kind of, you know, try to catch me, but I was faster. Oh, puttofuls. You know, from the sleeper from her feet.

But the thing is about how we use this world abuse for everything. Yeah. I think, did you ever been bitten the slap in the face with something wrong in your life? Yes. So, are you feel abused? No. No, me either. But.

What about emotional pain? Sometimes the worst abuse isn't physical. Okay, okay. Okay. Now we're talking much more interesting. Physical pain is so easy to take. Emotional pain is hell. This is what my entire work, after really pushing my physical limits of my body,

I got into this all mental area, you know. You're talking about emotional pain you experienced in your art. Love breaks, art. But what about growing up? We're not going to talk about your childhood. We don't have to talk about your childhood, but I feel like there was something there. Emotional pain was terrible. I never felt loved, ever.

I was so lonely, abandoned. When I asked my mother when I was 40 years old, why she never kissed me, she was so shocked. She said, of course not to spoil you. But I find diary of my mother when she died. She had Alzheimer's. She never been touched. She only touched me when she didn't even know it was me with Alzheimer's. When she died, I found diary of her.

And I look at this diaries. This diary is the most heartbreaking. She was so lonely. My father left her when she was 42 with 25 younger women. and she'd never been with anybody else and she just was trying to make me a warrior she didn't want me to go to any emotional pain and I didn't know that

if I read one page of this diary my relation to my mother would be very different but I didn't know she didn't want you to go through emotional pain therefore she deprived you of emotional completely you know she pretty damaged me because it was difficult

but it's fine I mean you know all of these experiences I put in my work, I liberate myself from a lot of this thing. And now I would like to tell you that I took me so many years to actually go away from Yugoslavia, go away from my childhood, to come back here in Manchester and to make Balkan erotic epic, to come back exactly where I started to my childhood and make peace with this. It's a very important project for me.

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Oh well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen.

This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business, because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S. In the resumes of your work and in the documentary Uly comes up a lot The 12 years when you collaborated together A lot of tempestuous breakups And then that's incorporated into the work One of the pieces involved you slapping each other

For 20 minutes but this was not about slapping it was about music it was using body as a music instrument my dear why do people see slapping I mean you just make sound yeah but you didn't slip it you could have slept each other on the hands

you could have just gone like that there was wonderful piece actually slapping each other we create the rhythm create the speed when we could not speed anymore we stopped we was walking how blue each on the street very much in love it was all good yes but it must have been painful

surely that's part of the Okay, can I explain to you about pain and performance now? I know what you're going to say. I can, shall I tell you what you're going to say? You're going to say when you're doing a performance, you don't feel the pain. Then why are we doing this? You don't know my answers.

Well, because I think it's a bit disingenuous because I think I like talking to you. Not easy one. No, no, because you're saying, oh, it's just making music but obviously you're slapping each other on the face. Yes, but doesn't have the idea that's, well, that's not ridiculous. The concept is important. Concept is everything.

Really is important. Okay, look at this simple street that sometimes I take for my students example. All right. So, you are jogging and you're jogging in the street in the park

and you jog to the last minute of your breasts. Now, all what you want to have, go home, have a shower and a beautiful breakfast. In this moment, come the man with the gun.

I say, I will kill you if you don't run. What you do? You run like hell. From which energy you run when you just exhaust your energy? You run from the extra energy

that's a survival energy in your body who is always there for you that you can survive but in performance in all your rational works and you're talking about pain and all this you train yourself to use to that excess of energy

that you normally don't have in real life and you're not threatened to that but you can use it that's incredible important thing and also you can't do performance without public I could never do anything in my studio because first I don't like it

because it's painful. Second, it's too long. The third, I don't have any reason to do it. But if I share my experience with the public, they can understand constant while I'm doing what I'm doing to liberate themselves from the fear of pain, then in that case, energy of the public give me this extra energy

that actually the same runner get with the gun in your face. That's really important. Energy of the public is everything. I'm only, and I'm only digging in, but I think what I'm trying to acknowledge is that part of what makes a performance like the slapping one,

what was it called? I shouldn't call it the slapping one. It's called light dark. Light dark. Part of what is intrinsic to that is a sense of. You're either transcending the pain or not feeling the pain

and that the audience is assuming that there's pain there. It's a bit naive to suppose oh, the pain is matured. In early 70s, mate, he was a writer and also performance artist and he made the title body art. He did the masturbation one, I think.

Oh, wonderful piece. Okay. He was underneath the floor of a gallery. I re-performed this piece, of course. He was he wanking for like a couple of days or something? I re-performed this piece in Guggen, my dear. You did. Seven easy pieces.

But wait, go back down. How long were you masturbating? We can't jump like this. We have to go back to the body is a place where things happen, body art. Okay. So now, the slapping, this is why we took slapping to be the music, screaming to be the sound, bumping the walls with the whole entire body

is about architecture and the sound. Which was one where you ran into the wall. And the sound of the body. And it sort of bounced off. Everything was based on sound and not about pain at all. But you always see is pain. But trusting at yourself from the pain and see it larger. Have a larger picture.

No, I think I get that. What was that piece called? The masturbating one. What was it called? Do you know? Seedbed. Seedbed. I don't get that.

I read about that. I'm like, you can't wank for that long. Is it Vito Acconchi? Vito Conci, Seedbed. Seedbed. Interesting. Gosh, there's a lot to get in. So you want me to tell you what I've done with seedbed?

Yes, that's right. I knew it. Okay. Thank you. It kept me on track. Yeah, that's what it was. Yes. So he elevate.

floor of the gallery, and he masturbate under the gallery. And he was microphoneed, I think. And he was microphone and talking about, you know, his experience. And he was looking up the dresses of the people walking around? The people was just walking, that's it. Was he naked? He was under the floor, not visible. Not visible.

Okay, Guggenheim. That makes it easier. I made seven, called seven easy pieces where I re-performed pieces, including also my own, to understand that actually you can re-perform work. And I re-perform also under the floor, exactly as he did, the seatbed. And I also, I re-performed the seven hours because each day was another performance. And the question is, he produced sperm. What I produce when I masturbate, humidity.

Humidity. You know, it was very difficult for me because in this performance, I went in seven hours with five orgasms, and then next day I have to perform. It was my energy was really low. I wonder how many times he let's not go down that's false let's not talk about that

okay is if I'm the most difficult artist talking to or you have worse ones than me no perfect you're absolutely you're a dream subject no because this is all really interesting and I appreciate you're willing to indulge I recognize I'm being maybe a little bit of a philistine in some of my questions but I think that's you're old-fashioned my dear

okay I can live with that When you were with, were you going to say something? No, just old-fashioned, but I really want you to get a little more, you know, edgy. Edgy, okay. So when you're with Ulai, he was German, he'd been born in Nazi Germany, you were born in communist Yugoslavia, you had this, it's actually quite beautiful reading about it. You had this romance, you were vagabonds, artistic outlaws, traveling around for years. kind of willfully homeless that was I think part of your commitment

to the artistic process in a kind of a small van this would have been in the 70s and then early 80s then you were planning this work where you were going to walk the length of each was going to walk half the length of the Great Wall of China and meet in the middle and get married but it took seven years

to get the permits and by then you were eight and then by then you were on the rocks so instead you decided to meet and split up right we still did the artwork but had a different outcome but meanwhile he been cheating around. He'd been cheating on you, right? He'd been womanizing. Only last three years. But we stopped leaving the car. In the car, nobody could cheat. Right. We live in the car. When you decided to split up from him, you almost sound like a, not exactly an artwork, because it was real life. But you took an approach in order to almost fall out of love with him. Do you know where I'm going with this? You basically agreed to have a three-way with him.

This is in your book. No, this was before splitting. Yeah, before. But it's, but what I took it to me, was so you agree you didn't really want to he had a girlfriend rock and roll a rock and roll chick he went to China to get permissions to walk the greater whole China and when I came to China to visit to see where

permissions are going he was already with this woman and they were sleeping every night and I said can I come and be together and this was the worst decision of my life and I described very well in the book but it sounded like it was a process whether it was deliberate or not it allowed

you to disconnect. The feelings were quarterized. It was really important that something happened that I stopped loving like his smell. That was the end. You stop loving people's smell. Nothing you can do about it. It was the end.

You get the, in watching the documentary, I have the impression re-watching it this morning. Ulai wanted to get back together with you. Yeah, but Olai was interested to get to back, back with work but I could not do this anymore Did he want to work with you again? Yes, this was what you said. That was his agenda?

No, he was asking me if he could do a few pieces together and I said no. Oh, you don't think it was a romantic rapprochement? No, no. The romantic was that because first of all trust was gone. You're one of the most famous artists in the world, right?

I don't feel that way because it's of how the people project me. So I'm kind of, you know, really over all this because if my success came when I was young, like young artists, you know, that happened with the musicians, with writers, they can burn so much. They really start thinking how great they are

and they start drinking and die overdose. But I see the success such a low process only came after my 60. So I used to... 2010 was a catalyzing moment, wasn't it? It felt like something changed? You know, first was... The show in New York plus the documentary.

You know, I got the Golden Lion when I was 50. And that was with the, what's it called? Balkan Baroque. With the time of the war. Cows, bones in the basement of a building in Venice. And that was really big comment of the war. And it's so interesting that work, that work was really done from my again shame of the Balkan war, which is very shame of.

That piece now is relevant. You have shame. You have shame over that? Of the Balkan War, yes. Why? Because I think this was terrible. What happened to ex-Yugoslavia. Yeah, but that's not your responsibility, is it?

It is not. But at the same time, this is why I don't say that I'm Serbian or Montenegro or anything. I say I'm ex-Yugoslav because my country don't exist. So when I made this washing the bones with the blood... Washing the bones, the cow's bones in 1997. Amazing piece. There's a video on it you can see on YouTube. It looks powerful.

You were there for five days. You know, beautiful white smock or dress scrubbing the bones. Dirty, meaty, smelly cow's bones. And with the warms coming out. With worms coming out. And the blood and the rest is not white anymore. But the thing is that that piece was really, I want to create again image who is transcendental for any war, any time.

So that war, a long time is gone. But other wars are coming. This is always relevant. And this is important for artists to create pieces who are relevant. And to have many lives again. And you won the Golden Lion and huge success from that and then consolidated and elevated in 2010 with the enormous success of the artist is present.

Your half art is half rock star, half religious guru. I mean, you've got this extraordinary level of visibility. Your profile is off the charts on the cover of lots of magazines. Nevertheless, I don't think you've maybe exploited it financially as much as perhaps you could have done. You feel free to disagree.

Pretty naughty, because I never took, I never make art as to, to create. create something like art commodity. I was going to say because Damien Hurst, who's probably the most famous British artist. But he's genius. He's worth maybe $300, I think it's $350 million. I find honestly, Damien Hurst is the artists who amazing, you know, have a capacity to really fight art market in his own benefit. He's understood the business side of it.

Unbelievable. For me, chapeau for Damien Hurst. That's off to Damien Hurst. I don't have this ability at all. I have the other ability. How do you, like, how do you, how do, how, as, for those who don't understand the art world, and, you know, and an enormous amount of it is the infrastructure and the administration and organizing, right? And how do you get the people involved to get the, you know, the people in the space to perform the exhibition and get the play?

Okay, just to tell you. How do you come on, how do you make a living? Okay, just to tell you a little bit in the background. Oliver Eliason have a 265 assistance working for him. I thought Elierson is an artist. A very famous artist living in Berlin. Jeff Coons have 165 maybe. Jeff Coons, is he still alive?

Of course, very much alive. He's no good. Then Demi is he? Do you don't like Coons? I don't have any opinion. Come on. Put it out there. Come on.

I will never say anything against anybody. Do you like Banksy? Huh? Banksy. I know all of them, of course. Do you like Banks? No, I'm not opinion. I'm not telling anything.

I don't like to say anything about the public. That's a good, I think that's a good approach. If you've got nothing good to say nothing at all. Sorry? My grandfather used to say that. If you've got nothing good to say, then don't say anything. They're all, you know, working, living artists and good for them. But wait, you constantly go over the truck.

God, how we can keep you on the truck? I think Damien Hirst had went close to 300. I don't know how many. Assistance. Assistance. He couldn't have 300 full time. Okay, never mind. But it's big numbers.

I had a one. I had one assistant and just one. Right now I work with three people and I'm going to continue and I think this is right number three and that's it. But I have an institute who have more people, they're working, they're independent and I have the huge ability to organize stuff to make my work. But not the same ability to make money of my work. I don't have this ability like they do. But can I tell you how most of the. the time, I learned my money. I teach 25 years and I have a salary. I teach in Germany. I

teach in Hamburg, in Berlin, in Braunschweig. I teach in Japan in Kitekushu. I teach in three years in Paris. Now I don't teach. I made the workshops. I made the big talks with five, six thousand people. I think you've worked with BBC Maestro. Let's get that plug in there. You've done some courses for BBC Maestro, which people can see online. This Maestro is fantastic what we've done just now. BBC Maestro, which I've done, they came to my home to explain to their Bramwich method. Twenty-eight exercises that you can actually get any time you want to go to my Bramwich method, and you get one of this. Method of what? Of life, of art? Just how to be present. How to be present. And you kick any of this exercise good for you, maybe a few of

concentration to stay in one subject will be good exercise. Any religion? I heard that. That dig was noted. Just saying. Any, any, any, any. particular, you could be any religion and do that. It doesn't conflict with other spiritual practices. To nothing. Like Scientology. Do you know about Scientology? I saw your program on it. No, you didn't.

Yeah, I did. Can we escape that part? That was unexpected. God. Can we talk about the Pizza Gate thing? The pizza gate thing? I mean, that must have been stressful. It sounded like a...

It's stressful because I have the... really, you know, life warning. Death threats, do you mean? That, you know, they will come and take the devil out to my body. From who? You know, unknown. We should explain for people listening what happened. You know, it would be so wonderful.

Anybody can Google, Marina Bramwich, New York Times, the Pizza Gate, have a huge report of this with title, I am not satinist, I am an artist. But if you want a story, it would take a few minutes. It was basically, you were friendly with, who is it, John Podesta? Tony Podesta is a collector, which I work with. John Podesta is his brother. We worked with the Clintons.

We worked for the Clinton for a long time. And he was in town, Tony, and I invite him for dinner. I used to make this funny dinners called Spirit Cooking, which I make normal food with the funny recipes. You know, they're just kind of poetry. Let's tell you one recipe. take 13 leaves of green cabbage Mix with 13,000 grams of pure jealousy Put in iron pot

Pure jealousy Jalousy, put in iron pot And eat just before attack Just before attack Attack, jealousy attack Then next will be like Spill fresh morning urine Put over the nightmare dreams

Like you know Just pee over the nightmare dreams I mean there's like kind of vision and the images or you have to realistic poems yes all anyway so he sent to me a little message and he said the you never met my brother he's in town send me this email and send me the john podesta email i send email to john if you want to come his brother is coming blah blah he sent email to his brother that's not going to come not to me never had meeting with john podesta never saw him and never came for the dinner now it's it's it's this

It's all the thing with the investigational emails, the WikiLeaks. And in these emails, the most strange thing was that I invite him, the Tony Podesta, to come to, you know, spirit cooking dinner in my place. So they Google me, see the cut star, cumministar in my stomach. Basically, they would have leapt on these apparently... They see as a pentagram immediately. ...seemingly satanic symbols and what? So from one day, that would be catnip.

One day from another, I opened my email and it's bombarding that I'm the witch, that I'm eating children, that I'm drinking the blood with Hillary Hinton in Pizza Gate. I'm completely shock. They put it together with the pre-existing narrative, which was based on a kind of bonkers conspiracy theory to do with trafficking of children and satanic ritual abuse. So there was this framework for it, and you slot it into it perfectly. And then come horrible. changed my emails who changed my credit cards because they was attacking me they were going to come and you know they they cut my throat that they're going to take devils out of me crazy QAnon type do you know about QAnon yes the same guy who who said 36 kids kill you know

in this horrible the school that actually was actors oh Alex Jones was he was a ringleader for the allegations against you that is Alex Jones really came he did he get in touch with you or he was talking about you no talking talking about me, not in touch. Then he actually promote me from the priestess into highest priestess. Now I'm higher priestess. According to Alex Jones. Yeah. So I got so fed up with this shit. I can't take this way from me. I made a big article in New York Times say, I'm not satirist, I'm an artist, and you know, nothing I can do. And it's still there. And you know this problem is that I have stuck having bodyguards

because I had the opera 7th Deso Maria Callas in Carre Theatre in Amsterdam and I lived there for 30 years I had to be Gaudiard every single day to go to theatre and back because there was announcement, the alarm that there will be people in the weapons in the theatre when I'm there because of the Alex Jones stuff? Then when I was leaving the last day of performance

there was enormous beautiful made from fresh roses the heart in the front of theater and I was thinking that was for me finishing the work and they said no no this is a protest for the children you just eat honestly it's not fun at all and I am just

horrified by this but the same guy I mean now he is sued by the family for 135 million you know to pay and now he asked his supporter to pay back his dad's the family of the of the Sandy Hook

36 children were being killed. The bereaved Cerniehook families where the children got killed. I think now he said, okay, maybe I got it wrong. You follow what's happened to him. There was a documentary. It's a pretty good documentary.

It's called The Truth versus Alex Jones that follows the trial. I never saw it. I think you'd find it interesting. And then he goes up to the family. And you can sort of see, I think he's a pretty cynical guy in the sense that I think he knew

that his audience loved the idea of satanic ritual abuse taking place and so he began giving that currency and then he said you see him going up to the family members afterwards saying I'm sorry if I got a couple of things wrong I have two FBI agents come to my house to see if I'm okay because

they found the list somewhere in Arizona with my name on the list as a target that's not fun so I don't like this at all and really nothing I can do about it It's a side effect of the internet.

It's become a dumping ground for toxic conspiracy theories. And I wish I could say, oh, you know, oh, put it out of your mind or move on. But you're right. It festeres. And it really affects me. And also one other thing that's really terrible is actually America is so full of this kind of people who can really go and blow your head for no reason. There is a group of people who absolutely believe that Earth.

It's flat, you know? Do you still live in America? I do. So you have to be careful. I am. I'm trying my best, really. Thank you so much. Are you okay?

I'm perfect. How are you? Perfect. For you, this is nothing. This is like a breeze, right? If you could sit for eight hours. Like, what was this? It was only like, I am hardcore, my dear.

I like that. Welcome back. It's me again. Did you enjoy that? Yes, you did, because it was fascinating. And the world of art has been open up to you. I sometimes joke that you, the viewers, the listeners, are morons, and maybe you are. But it's my job to try and educate you a little bit and entertain. And I think we did that today. I'm about being too ironic. though, the world of performance art is confusing and at the same time intoxicating. Who doesn't want to hear about people doing extraordinary things? I thought I did a good job, I'm patting myself on the back, of kind of calling Marina out on the fact that quite evidently slapping someone else around the face is not just about making an interesting noise.

It's also about, wow, that's super painful, humiliating and kind of embarrassing, right? let's call a spade a spade the show itself Bolton Michael Bolton erotic epic as I like to call it Michael Bolton wasn't there I was disappointed

nevertheless there were some things to enjoy right oh dear I peaked I peaked too early how do I describe it so the first thing

you go in and you surrender your phone. It's put in a little locked plastic case, which feels oddly what's not emasculating, de-weaponising, like you sort of feel stripped of your, it feels unsafe. I'm not safe. I don't have a phone. But then you go in and you realize why. I mean, look, how long have you got to people? You parade up a staircase following a kind of Balkan procession of musicians playing this, how do I describe the musical style? If you know the band Beirut, it's a brass lead, rather melancholic and lugubrious, but nevertheless tuneful musical style. That's not right. It doesn't sound like that. And then you arrive in this large, huge, hangar-like, I mean, it's a sound stage, but it's absolutely, what,

I mean, 100 metres high maybe, maybe not that much. and then this performance and then I had an 8, 10 different I think she had a word for it well sets let's call them stations I think she called them and in each one something else something different is happening

there was one where it was like a grassy verge and there were like five or six naked men just kind of humping the ground thrusting into the ground there was another one where women in a graveyard were quote unquote making love

to skeletons I mean, it was an extraordinary tableau of bizarre, surreal, enticing, sometimes musical stagings. Look, there's more I could say about that. It was kind of fascinating. Quite salt burny, the mountain-ground. Quite salt-burny, Millie says, taking it low road, as usual, being super basic. Why, we have to translate it into, like, viral movies of last year to make.

intelligible to the moronic public. It kind of is Salt Burnie. It also reminded me of Philip Roth. There's a scene in Sabbath's theatre where he has an affair with a woman who, I think oddly enough, is Yugoslavian and then finds himself after she dies masturbating over her grave

and then find someone else there masturbating. I mean, it's a weird book. We're getting off-piece. Artist assistance, Millie's written. probably should clear up as some of the numbers were a little inflated. Fair enough. Olafore Eliasson has 90 to 100 assistance, not 265. Is that what she said?

That's still a lot, though. Jeff Coons used to have around 120 assistance, but has since let some go and has around 30 now. Marina was partially correct. I think I also said Jeff Coons is a load of rubbish. I said something rude. Apologies to Jeff Coons. I've since found out he's a big fan. I haven't found that out, but if he is, and even if he isn't, I actually do quite like Jeff Coons' artworks.

You know, he does those big metal recreations of balloon animals, but in steel. They're really quite cool. So I don't know why I, I think I bashed him because he's big and I was punching up. Damien Hurst has a little over 100 assistants, but has since laid some off. Our thoughts and prayers are with Damien. and the assistants who've been laid off. More though. Maybe them.

Both. Sometimes it's tough being the big guy. The overdog has feelings too. Speaking as one. Thank you so much for joining me this series, it says. Millie's written, there will be plenty more episodes. I sincerely wish you all the best.

This is me doing a bit now. On their way to you in the new. year. This is my new speaking style. And in the meantime, keep your eyes peeled for some bonus excitement in the festive period. That's it for this week. All that's left to do are the credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Man al-Jasari. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel Di Olivera. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. Millie stopped doing the thing. That's fine. I can remember. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. When I was younger, I always wanted to be either an astronaut or an athlete. I was a fast runner. I thought maybe I could make it to the Olympics or be blasted off into space. As it happens, neither of those dreams came true. I had to settle for being an award-winning documentary maker and international celebrity. Oh well, we've all had big dreams and it's never too late to make them happen. This is your sign to stop holding back and go for it, especially if your dream is to run a business

because Shopify is making it easier than ever. It's there to support you every step of the way, from designing your website to marketing to product descriptions to sales. The list goes on and on. So give it a shot. Turn those dreams into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial. and start selling today at Shopify.com slash Louie, L-O-U-I-S. That's Shopify.com slash Louis, L-O-U-I-S.